You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - This Band Made Jazz Legends

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

Adam and Peter finally delve into the great Caravan by Art Blakey and his Jazz Messengers. So many iconic jazz musicians came through that institution and the YHI team has been waiting to breakdown all the things that make this album great.Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Looking to drop a question? Want to listen to the audio pod? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey Adam. Yeah, what's up? Pete. I've got a demo of my new band. I want to play for you. I want to share with you. Oh, great. Are you ready for it? I'm excited.

I didn't even know you had a new project going on. Well, it is a new project. It's a new album, in fact, because I'm old school. Amazing. And I've got this little petite demo for... I know we've got an important record to listen to today, but could you check this out when you get a chance? Here. Here. Take it.

Love it. Love it. We're going to do this again, are we? I'm Adam Manus And I'm Peter Martin And you're listening to the You'll Hear at podcast Music Explored Explored

Brought to you today by Open Studio Go to Open StudioJadogas.com for Oh You jazz less than I'm a record back Your new demo Is a Is a copy of Rest on Me By the Nostologics

And I believe it's a coaster It is a coaster Also that's the second time in a week You've done the joke Well no I did it a different Look It came out of the CD-ROM drum Imagine that.

Caleb, we're going to be dealing with this for quite a while. You know that right. Do you remember when CDs, this is not a CD, but it's a platter. It's a platter-like music device. It's a mini-LP that's actually a coaster that Dan got for us. Yeah. Do you remember when there was different kinds, you had a CD-R? I do. You had a CD-R.

CD-R, which stood for recordable, I believe. Remember how some of them were read-only, which is confusing because that was probably CDR as well, right? Did you ever have a keyboard with a floppy disk? I had a little roll-in with the, I believe it was a three-inch floppy disk, three-and-a-half-inch floppy disk? Which was not floppy.

No, it was stiff. Right. The actual floppy disk, like on a Commodore 64, those you could use like a fan in church. That was right. Those had about 16K worth of memory on it. If that, right. Yeah.

If you're just joining us for the first time. It's Tech Talk. With Peter and Adam. Man, we are getting, we are getting dangerously close to two gentlemen that we've been compared to. We've never talked about this. We've never actualized it in our relationship.

What? Click and clack. Click and clack. The Taffet Brothers. Do we even want to admit? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. One of them passed away a couple years ago.

They were, that's an amazing show. That's Car talk and NPR. For those kids who don't know, maybe the greatest two-man radio show in the history of radio, it was two. Bob and Ray. That's going back a little longer. Jack Benny and the other guy. Here.

It was, it was two broad. brothers who were from Massachusetts. Two brothers. And had a... Not brothers. Can we cut that? No. And had a thick...

Had a thick Massachusetts accent. Oh, that's right. They were very Massachusetts. And... Like suburban Boston. They would take calls. We should maybe think about this, actually. They would take calls about people's car problems and try to figure out and diagnose.

Which, how was it like... What do you talk about? We do that. No, but I guess we do. It's called speak pipe. It is called speak pipe. By the way, go to you'll hear it.com. We'll leave it's a speak pipe.

But yeah. But live calls. We've never done a live call. That's true. That is a little bit where we're actually talking back and forth. We have the capabilities here on our trusty old roadcaster from 2000. Roadcaster pro. 19, 2019, this is the five-year-old model.

Okay. But we could take calls. Maybe we should, should we take calls? Would anybody like to call into the show? On automotive issues or jazz issues? I think mostly jazz issues, jazz piano issues. We could really call it. What would we call it?

Click and clack, but for jazz, it would have to be like. It would be like, uh... B and Bob? Jazz talk. Jazz talk. We should think about it. Jazz talk.

But you know, Peter, if any word, if anyone were to call in, check out this transition, buddy. If anyone were to call in and I want to talk about their favorite Art Blakey album, oh. You know what I would want to talk about. Well, is this going to be today's? Because I was just thinking about that. I was like, is this my favorite art Blakey album? Is this Mount Rushmore?

Is this Apex? Mountain. We're going to get to that because I thought it was. It's got to be up there. It's got to be up there. There's a few candidates for greatest Art Blakey albums, of course. He had a good run during this period, didn't he? Oh, unprecedented. Late 50s to early 60s. I mean, really through 70s through the 80s, buddy. But Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers is an institution of the music. Art Blakey is one of the greatest drummers who ever lived. And these albums are

unbelievable. And this album, specifically, 1963's Caravan, be my favorite. It's definitely the one that I've listened to the most. Does it get elevated in your mind or in the zeitgeist of albums because it came out in 1963 as well? Yeah, that was a good year. We're going to talk about the year 1963. It was, it's, maybe hasn't been talked about enough. Everybody talks about 1959, but 1963 might be the year for this music. Yep. Yeah, it might be. I remember. And this one, and that actually makes it even harder to stand out. And the fact that we, whenever you talk about a great record for either of those years, there's so many just, you know, contenders for greatest jazz record of all time, for some would say.

Yeah. So the fact that this is talked about during that year, I think, makes it even more interesting. And I think it holds up. The first semester when I moved to New York and went to the new school, I had a class, an arranging class with Charles Tolliver, the great Charles Tolliver, and we played all of these arrangements from Caravan. And I don't know if it was just his decision to do that that semester. But it was a good decision.

But it was a great decision because I got to finally play. And I think these were like Charles's transcriptions of them, too, of these arrangements of Caravan and Sweden's hour. And we did in the We Small Hours. And we did Skylark. And this is for Alba. We did all of it. Yeah. It's a great record.

It's a musician's record, but it's a listener's record, too. I think it holds up really well as just, you know, an all around just foot tap and swing in. But a lot of like inside baseball, inside jazz stuff happening on here, a lot of advanced arrangements. techniques, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. But just a fun record. Like, every time I put on this record, it's a joyous record, I should say. You know what I mean? Like, it makes me, like, just re-invigorate, it reinvigorates my love of jazz music.

Forget about, like, is this jazz, is this not? This is. That's one thing I do know. It sounds great. It gets your toes to happen. Sounds great. It feels amazing. The soloing is off the charts good.

The arranging is off the charts good. All of the playing, the dynamics between the horns is great. It's an organized record, but it's still got great improv on it. It's not an overly organized record, but it's got great structure to it. It is everything that we love about music and about improvised music. Sue us. We love great records. Like this one here.

Oh, is this your new? That's my new one. I'm going to play along. It's a small little piece I'm working on. Okay, so some cultural context. This came out in February, 1963. The number one movie in America was how the West was one. Oh, that's a classic.

The number one TV show was the Beverly Hillbillies, which we've dealt with here. I've not the number one show for like 30 years? It was a popular show. The number one song, I love this song. You've really got a hold on me by The Miracles. I feel like that could be on one of your... That's right. On one of your demos.

A little 45. A little 41. And the number one album was The Beatles. Please Please Please Me. Their debut album was number one. So we are entrenched into the rock and roll period here. We are getting there. Which is interesting.

A little artist background. Art Blakey was 43 years old. That's like my age, Peter. Yeah. That's incredible. Well, a little younger than you. But who's counting? Not that much much much.

Curtis Fuller was 29 Wayne Shorter was 29 Cedar Walton was 28 and Reggie Warkman was 25 So this was the beginning of You know when I saw Art Blakey In the late 80s Before he passed I had the pleasure

And the honor of being able to see him live And be very like See him live at Sweet Basels in New York So right next to him And of course then he was quite He was known as having young bands He had Jeff Kieser in that band I think Benny Green had been in there right before

Of course went Marsalis brand for Marcellus Kenny Garrett. I mean, all the Terrence Blancher, like he was, it was kind of like the Betty Carter situation and that he had people much younger than him. But I never thought about this period. He was already a little, like he kind of had young players coming up. In fact, I was just thinking, should I play this now or should we wait this little

interview with that we found here? Caleb, if you want to pull this up, because I thought it was interesting to think about, he was already a little bit of an elder state. But in that Curtis Fuller and Wayne shorter were 29. Cedar Walton was 28. Reggie Worker was 25. In their late 20s, except for him. Yeah, I'm thinking Freddie was even

younger. But let's check this out. Boom. Band leaders. See, because around and especially in the States, there's 52 weeks a year, you see. Now we have to every 10th or 12th band, the man has in the club is a winner. He makes money. But all in between he doesn't make money. So the clubs begin to close. So we needed more stars, more bands. So we began to put men out and get their own groups and that's the way the jazz messengers started

and now it's become an institution see out of that we make stars we make band leaders we don't this is my thing you know to build them up I'm not an organization like Basie or Duke

if a fella has got it young man's got it I believe in putting him out there because I worked in the big band and I never got nowhere you know and this thing you're buried. And I think the fellow's, young fellas, should have a chance and get out there in people like new faces. That's so great. That apprenticeship philosophy where a somewhat older musician is going to have a band of younger future stars and give them the platform that is going to launch

their career. It's still being implored today. Not as much. But people like Christian, McBride still does this. And I don't know how Christian McBride does everything he does, because he still has bands of people his age. Right. But then he has like three bands of people with people younger than him. Right. Of different, you know, of different genres almost. Right. Where he's putting out music for them to be featured. And that is in the tradition of Blakey, of Miles Davis, of Freddie Hubbard, of really all of the people that came from this generation. That's what they did. They used these younger, and even for us, Peter, you know, we both came up here in St. Louis in the Willie Aiken School. That's all Willie did. From his 30s on is higher, basically teenagers,

whoever were the top teenagers in St. Louis to be in his band to the early 20s, you know. Right. Low bar. But by the time we came along. No, no, no, no. But that's, I mean, yeah, it's not on the level of Blakey, but it's still, like, a very cool mentorship where it's like you get on a real gig with a real player who's going to tell you how it is and how the music is supposed to go

and you learn a repertoire and all that stuff that you get, that I think, you know, it's not, I hate to use, like, it's missing or it's whatever, but it is something that was very cool about that time. Go yell at the cloud. Don't tell me. You don't get as much if you're just building your career on Instagram, you know, like to just spend a couple of years

with someone who's been around for 20 years and learn from them and also, by the way, get in front of ears and eyeballs of their big crowd can be very advantageous. And I love the way Blakey said. I'd never seen this interview but the way he connects it with

like, you know, he's like, I'm making stars out here. Yeah, it's great. I'm helping the clubs have some killer. What do you say? Killers or some stars or whatever. It's really, that's fascinating. It really is fascinating, like how much self-awareness and how

clear he was about how this was going and the connection with the big man. So I believe R. Blakey came up with Billy Eckstein big band and some other. He was a big band drummer. You can hear that on this record. But he was also a connector between Max Roach and that whole tradition. I mean,

he's just the genius of the drums, but to be reminded and to learn that he was a genius of band leading and like promotion of the music. I think that was also his thing about like having arrangements and like having the shit organized. Like Art Blakey was very much about that. I know people that played with him

and like people kind of thought he was... There's always that thing because like you're a drummer, bandleader. There's this question of like, what is the vision? You know what I mean? But if you think about it, like Tony Williams' Lifetime band and his later bands with Mulgram Miller and, you know, when I got to see him live, incredible bands.

You know, and I think a lot of that tradition and confidence comes out of the Art Blakey and the Jazz Messenger's tradition. Even the name of it. Like who's had a cooler name for a band before, you know? It's a great name. And, you know, had many iterations with all these stars. So the future stars here in this current lineup, Freddie Hubbard on the trumpet,

Curtis Fuller on the trombone, Wayne shorter on the tenor saxophone. This is, again, you know, right before he joins Miles' band. Cedar Walton on the piano and Reggie Workman on the bass. All five of those have become legends. Yes. Now, you know, at this point,

like they're all legendary on their instruments. Fun fact, and we can wait as a little bit of a teaser to the very end. You know, we have some fun stuff happening. after the end credits. Only a couple people picked up on that last time. Well. You're not for this? You are for it. I don't understand it. If you're not for it. You're against it. There's some things about this show here that I just don't understand. Well, no, we want to invite folks to stick around to the very end because we're going to answer the question that I think you don't even know.

The musicians you just named, those five plus are Blake, so six, right? It's a sex dead. How many fingers do you need for that? Okay, good. This minute, I've got one more to show you at it, but I won't do it right now. No, out of those six musicians, one of those, I have recorded a record as a side man. No. Yes, but we're not going to tell you

until the end, because you don't know, do you? You're going to guess at the end. I hope it's Wayne, but I don't know. Yeah, anyway, stick around to the end. My little small connection with this record. Amazing. Let's listen to the opening track, man. Sounds good. That's Caravan, right? That is Caravan, indeed. Title track. Get out of town.

This is some of the most stolen solo jazz piano solo techniques. When he goes to the symbols here, based on. I remember the first, I still remember the first

time I heard this. I was driving home from Borders after I bought it on CD when I was in high school. Shout out Borders. And I was just trying to feel what the drums were doing.

Yeah. You know what I mean? What a way to start the record. This is a Freddie arrangement. I believe this is a Freddie Hubbard arrangement. I have forgotten all of the arrangements on this.

I used to play these different bands over the years. The harmony, the three-part harmony, and then it goes to the unison. And this little, is a big band drummer. Has there ever been a better press roll? That tritone? Just the whole first minute and 45 second intro is so patient.

Yeah. And beautiful, the soloing, I have this as my banger solo. Blakey all throughout this track. Oh, nice. This is the best playing on the album. Yep. But to set it up with that, and then you do that

and then and then the first have those two different grooves happen in that time the whole thing is like this epic epic setup it really is epic

and then with the way with the solos in between the way that he plays like that first solo which is out of time but very much in time yeah biga-d-d-d-d-d-dik-d-tig-tah

I mean it's so like just like precise but kind of weird because it's at the beginning of the wreck it's like you know it's like those corny drum circles but like the greatest one ever when the dudes gather around like the farmer's market or whatever and are playing but like this one's just like spot on

this is like somebody that just pushed them out the way let me show you how it's done it's so it's like a call to listen but you don't know what's about to come up and it's like technically really you know it's like a battalion of drummers it's amazing firing it's huge yeah and then when Blakey comes out of the second solo

and comes into the when you first hits the symbol it took me a while to figure out where the one was when I first heard that, right? Because he's doing these off beats on the things.

Let's listen to it again. It's deeply grooving, but there's a mystery in it. Oh, that roll. Oh, that roll. Boom, gung, gink, gink, gink, gung, gink, gong, gink, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, yeah, the polyr

are off the charts. Man, it feels amazing. The symbol, the bells are. Yeah. Fuller's, where he's laying on this, it's so perfect. And they go from the groove. Is that Afro-Cuban groove, would you call that? Whatever.

6-8, right to the swing. No problem. The trombone has the melody. Freddie and Wayne playing that kind of bebop line. And then Freddie. He's not afraid to hit a 1 and not an end of 4. Oh, yeah. He'll make that feel

bang right on the one. He just dropped bombs. This is obtrusive AF. But I get it, though. I mean, he's 43 years old. You playing with a bunch of young cats. I mean, you just did this album with Sarah Hanahan. Right.

And not that you guys aren't fiery, but having that useful energy brings it out. Wayne coming out of left field is the opposite. He's played one note so far. Freddie had already played 3,000. But then Wayne gets in there. I love this. period of Wayne where he's he's straight down the middle a little more.

Still finding his Wayne thing. Really fun. He's already weird. He's already Wayne weird. Steve Wilson just talked about that actually on Friday on our next to session. And then Kurtz Fuller is bringing fire. My name's on the cover. The whole record.

It's the whole track. I think we know who's getting the Oscar Peters and a award. Or it's like, I already took a solo. I'm taking another one. I've taken two. Oh, this is so good. This reminds me of like a battalion of, like one guy's doing this and the others over here

and it's like they're marching along. Oh, and he's breaking it down. Oh. The tuning on those tombs. Damn. That's influenced a lot of cats. The reverb of this space. Yeah.

And that over the bar line, it's a Blakey thing. Yeah. Yeah, you're not, you're not, you know, yeah. And that high head is just like perfect. Yeah. I mean, it's just like automatic. It's like stuck.

I think he has it on AI, that high hat. You hear the bass drum feathering the whole time? Yeah. I think he's participating vocally as well. We'll be getting to that. Yeah. You know who we pass the baton for this kind of solo into? Hurlin Riley.

Yeah. Oh, man. It's just like straight, especially the tuning of the drums. Hurlin is like, the snare drum and technique. You know who was really an expert on this as well was Montez was really. Montez Pullman, he knew.

This was his guy. Yeah. Greg Hutchinson, Ulysses Owens, for sure. Brian Blade, big our Blakey influence. That's not feathering. That's playing the bass track. Is that feathering? I mean, compared to how loud the serum is, yes.

Man, it's such a beautiful, grooving, direct connection with African drumming, too. Like the way that he's soloing. It's all the people want. That's all the people want. Yeah. It's like the people's drumming. He's the people's drummer.

Big ideas. Yeah. It's as good as it gets. Yeah. This is a really great arrangement. And they go back to the dudes. Wayne and Freddie played up. Oh, but they're phrasing the shit out of that.

I mean, the polyrhythms he's moving around with the left hand, blankie on this. Love the way of the same. Yeah. Rumbling and grumbling. It's relentless. Damn. The original was like, doom.

Yeah. Doon. Don't. Not done yet. Hi. How about that? That's very good. How about that?

That's very good. Very, very good. So that is Caravan from Caravan. Again, Art Blakey on the drums. Freddie Hubbard on the trumpet. Curtis Fuller on the trombone. Wayne Shorter on the tenor saxophone. Cedar Walton on the piano, Reggie Workman, on the bass.

Pito, it's talk bangers. Well, then I think I have as, what did I end up doing? Because I could have just thrown a dartboard. I got for the track. Actually, the next track, Sweden's side, which we just heard the beginning. Like, the sequencing on this record is, this is a great... I know I'm always talking about that, because we're going over great records.

Yeah. I don't think you can have a truly, truly great record that doesn't make some sense. Yeah. Doesn't tell some story with the sequencing of the track. And I love, like, because putting this first is kind of a interesting thing because it makes sense on the one hand in that it's the title track. It's a burner.

It's a burner. Yeah. But it's also like by far, well, I wouldn't say maybe Skylark. I don't know at that time. I don't think that was a huge standard. It's probably the most recognizable standard. Duke Ellington.

Yeah, Dukele. Juan T's all composition. Duke Ellington. Right. But in terms of like the arrangement and how they actualized it and like the way that it starts, it's not obvious to start the record like that.

It's very dramatic. Yeah. But it's very much like a, it could be seen as something, the point that you're leading to. That's right. The dramatic, you know, apex mountain of the record.

if anything. So when you start there, it's like, what do you do next? And I love sweet and sour, which is actually my banger track as coming in right after this. And I think this is important. And it's interesting because we start with this, you know, classic Duke Ellington repertoire. And we go right into a new Wayne Shorter original. And I think this record is one of a couple at this time that announces Wayne as the force of jazz composition that he is and will continue to be throughout the rest of his life. Yeah. And knowing that like, I mean, this is some of his more sort of traditional writing. You can hear that it's Wayne...

It's so good. It's got that connection. It's got some of the weird Wayne stuff that's the coming, just the brilliant, transcendental stuff, but it's also very much in the tradition. It's very much art Blakey types of tunes, too. Well, you know, the interesting thing with Wayne

and Wayne of this period, but certainly, Wayne after he joins Miles' band and starts writing music for Miles is he's very much like Philonius Monk. The music doesn't sound the same, but the spirit of there is a foot in the tradition, But there's so many unexpected turns that take place in the compositions, right? So he's using familiar sounds in a different way.

And I think sweet and sour is a great. A great example of like, this is as in the pocket for Wayne as you're going to get, but these little details that are a little weird. Yeah, like that. So good. So influential all this style of writing. So modern. So modern.

And time of here. Kids in Brooklyn are you going to go out. Not just without the shuffle. Kids in Brooklyn. No one likes to shuffle. To their own detriment. Cedar of this tune.

Cedar Walton might be in contention for the same award with Blake. And Wayne. I just want to put a little bit of love on Cedar Walton's chord voicing here. He has the greatest rooted chord voicings of all time. He's just got this beautiful,

mid-punchy voicing style that is addictive. Right. Blakey, well, the whole rhythm section plays this, the arrangement of this tune throughout the solo, which is great. Like they're always marking the rhythmic. I love, we got a Blakey click there.

Did you hear that? Yeah. They can't think of the day, yeah, yeah. I can't even do it with my tongue. Right. Yeah. Like they always come back then at this last rhythmic rhythm. Yeah, this, the Waltz shuffle, the Walt's high-hye-hack.

Yeah. I forget how original Freddy's phrasing was already. than because he's copied so much after this. He really is copied after this, Maiden Voyage and all that stuff. Oh, hey! He had so many little things that he liked to do. If you're a young piano player or a new piano player, learn Cedar Walton's comping voicing's here. They are so incredible. I might do something on this.

He's 23. Freddie? Yeah. Curtis Fuller ever played with Miles? Was there ever any kind of... has never did a trombone I don't think so I feel like he would have fit in that band

honestly like he could have taken the cannonball roll in kind of blue a little bit right yeah totally what ifs we should do some what ifs

active mixing right there hold the piano up hey such a great track man yeah yeah yeah and your solo's done starts

poking his head out like Right. Way shorter. Absolutely. And the first half of the tune could be Bobby Timmons. Yeah. You know? He could play higher, cleaner.

It would have really been better, don't you think? He didn't really need to go. He didn't know how to go up in that register very well. Joking! I was going to say, you better clarify, buddy. I know. I know. I hate mail.

Let's go to my bangor track. Ooh. It is Skylar. This arrangement is unbelievable. Yeah. Really good. So good. A good tie for this because I really want to get a little bit of this tune in too.

So Skylark is one of the most, I think, beautiful. Obviously, it's just crushing. But we don't have this on our list to play today, Peter, but I'm going to put it. This is one of my favorite Wayne shorter tunes ever. Oh, this is for Alpert. Yeah. Yeah, this is really good. A little piano playing the melody first.

Another wrong one? Actually, just part of it. Hinting at it. Yeah. Bimbing on the brimbing. Yeah. What Blake is playing on the rim of the snare? Man, he's arranging like a big band drummer, but for the sixth.

The whole tune is one, is everybody kind of playing with the melody, including Blake. A little distance is for Albert, just one of the greatest. Peter, what's your... You know what, this is a good... I don't totally remember the tune, but you got... So you've got, like, a lot of Wayne stuff. There's like this inner kind of logic. You got an G major, try it, and then an F major.

Not the chords, but like how he builds the melody off it. Something off of F, do, and then an E flat try. The whole thing is G triad to F triad to E flat triad, melodically. And then he's got some cool harmony underneath it. But there's always, I think with great composers, you can always find that entry point where it's like, what is that he's doing? And like, what is the most simple basic building block

that's sort of defining that melodic pattern? Absolutely. And no one, I mean, we're hearing it in these melodies from a young Wayne shorter. Like, he is letting, and this is a great lesson for composers, especially for pianists, because we get locked into our precious, precious chord progressions. I know.

We love harmony so much. We love thinking about chord progressions, but let the melody take you somewhere. Absolutely. Let the melody, let your ear take you somewhere. As we heard just with sweet and sour, as we heard just with, this is for Albert. It goes, if you allow yourself to just be open

to what the melody is going to bring you, you can go to some really cool places. Yeah, and then we should have noted this earlier, but of all the musicians that are on this record, Only Reggie Workman is still with us, but he's still with us. Everyone else, of course, Wayne recently passed. Curtis Fuller just a couple of years passed. And just wanted to point that out.

So a big shout out, Reggie Workman. And he's still a force of nature. I got to spend some time with him at the new school again. He was teaching there and took a couple classes with him. And just to have him around was like such a treat. He'd be doing push-ups right before class. And he's just like this incredible force of nature. And I'll never forget learning.

I forget what, I think we were working on like Crescent or something. And him just like, just being ruthlessly. I mean, and he's a very sweet guy. You're like, really like you need to learn how to do the robotos. Right. Get your shit together. Get your shit together on those. Those arpeggios are weak.

And you're not doing them like McCoy did them. You got to listen to the record. Job done and give you 20. It was like that a little bit. But it was great, man. That's exactly what I wanted. Yeah. From that experience, I was just killing.

So I have for, that was great. I'm glad you highlighted Albert, because I think that's a great tune. For my solo, my banger solo, which I believe is our last banger, right? Yeah, we've got everything else, is on Thermo. I love this tune. Freddie Hubbard, you know, had a bunch of great tunes. I don't know why we don't talk about him, what we're going to talk about later on this, because as a composer, really great, you talk about ergonomic tunes, fun to play.

Absolutely. Fantastic. This is a tricky one. Thermo. But I think Thermo is his soul on this is incredible. Check it out. Art nine much? I mean, this is Freddy Hubbard is the...

Yeah. And then this line. Vehicle is you're going to get. Hematonic? They write some shit that only you can execute on as the trumpeter. Dynamics? Our Blakey, big believer in dynamics. ABA?

Nothing wrong with that. Look at all this too. It's just all classic Freddy stuff, right? Oh, gosh. 23-year-old Freddie Hubbard. Anyway, it's incredible. You know, to me, it just, Freddy's playing like that all over the...

this record, which is fun. But that's a great way. Is that the last track on the record? Is that where we are in the That's the last track on the record? Let's talk about some categories, Peter. Yeah. So we've got some awards to give out. So the John Coltrane Theft Award, who stole this album? Who took it away from Blakey? I don't know if anybody did actually,

but if you were to pick one, who would you say? I put Freddie or Wayne, but can it be Blakey? Can you steal a record from yourself? I don't think you can steal one from yourself. Well, because it's not really a, it's an Art Blakey and the Jazz Messenger. records. His name is still first, technically. He lets you know it, though. I would say Freddie.

I mean, because Wayne is so, like, in the cracks. I mean, obviously, there's times when he steals it. It's hard to ignore Freddie Hubbard. Yeah. It is hard to ignore Freddie Hubbard. Reggie workman's put in some great work on this. Yeah. Yeah.

The Oscar Peterson Overplaying Award goes to... Who would you say? That's not nice. No, no. But he is, again, he's playing a lot. He's playing. He's sold on everything. Yeah, he's...

And he's, like you said, his arranging during the... melodies is what's just so much fun. It's busy, but it's like a big band drummer. It's setting everything up perfectly. And the big sound that he gets is unlike any other drummer. I don't know, Caleb, is there another drummer that has, from this era that has as big of a sound?

To be honest, it kind of as a group. It is like one of those big band like drummers from that era, this huge. Caleb, because he refuses to have a mic, my producer Caleb just says he prefers Buddy Rich or Gene Cooper is our Blakey. He said, what he just said. Gene Cooper was way better than Blakey. No, he didn't. He did mention those names.

But he said it sounds like teams. Yeah, I agree. It has this huge, like he's playing in a big band kind of thing, which is a great, a great feature of this album. The Keith. Oh, this is a new one. You introduced a new category onto the doc. New category, because this has been the several records in a row where we've had audible singing of someone as they're playing. And not us singing along to the, well, we've had some of that too.

So, you know what, maybe we should, I have something here, but I'm going to call, we're going to christen this because we're christening it. This is the art, Blakey. vocalization award. Oh, it's not going to be the... No. You're afraid to say it, aren't you? No, no, I'm not. You are...

Say it. Say it. I was going to call it the Keith Jarrett vocalization. But we're going to get blocked. Because we're christening it with Blakey, I think it should be the Art Blakey vocalization award and it goes to Art Blakey. You can hear all the rumblings of the like... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And he's got this like deep, gravelly voice that gets caught up in there. We're going to hear some, of course, from Keith, if we ever listen to Keith. We never will. I know, because we will get blocked. We will get blocked. But you can get blocked. could, of course, hear this in people like Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson. You can hear this all

over, I don't know why piano players, but drummers do. Yeah, some drummers. So we'll keep that vocalization award. Let's talk about some subs. Okay. Who, I mean, I think there's a couple positions where we can feel like somebody could come in and there's a couple that we might think we couldn't, i.e. drums, who the heck is going to sub for this? But I think we've got some for everyone. And I mostly fill these out because you somehow ignored this section this morning. but so we'll get feedback from you. So your call for a first call sub is Bobby Timmons on piano,

which is a solid call. Just because he was in there right before this, I believe. What, though, Peter? What if young Herbie Hancock was... Of course he could hold down. Of all these wane tunes? Can you imagine that?

Sweet and sour? That would be good. That would be kind of good. But then if everybody's a first call, then what's a first call? If it's more than one. Well, if no one's the first call, then no one's first call.

No, Herbie would be great. Tanner, you've got... I mean, really McCoy could come in, too. Well, yeah. That would be interesting. Well, no, but he could, you know, like, especially in 1962. That'd be big. Yeah.

That'd be big. I mean, he plays appropriate for the situation. It'd be fun. That'd be fun to hear. Tenor players. I was just kind of off the cuff here. I got Hank Mobley, George Coleman. But I'm forgetting somebody else that was, who else was in the fold then.

But those would be pretty good, right? Those would be great. Those would be great choices. Yeah. Wayne's hard to, like, he's such an individual. I know. I mean, all these players are, but trumpet. Lee Morgan, I think, is the obvious one.

Yep. But, I mean, Freddie Hubbard, I wouldn't want to sub for him, no matter even if I was Lee Morgan. I threw in Clifford Brown as a little bit of a ringer because, of course, he wasn't with us anymore. But remember, he was, I think the first record of, that I heard of the jazz messengers, with a trumpet on there was, yeah, like with Lou Donaldson,

Clifford Brown live at Birdland. So there's some question. Yeah. Early 80s, Winton on this record. Oh, for sure. Would be killing. For sure. Yeah.

Oh, what am I talking about? You know what I'm forgetting if we're going out of the thing. The one is Nicholas Payton. If we're talking about people that weren't born yet, Nicholas Payton could do this. Like, he's got more Freddie stuff, I think, than any trumpet player. But yeah, of course, went nor Terrence. Base, we've got to put-Wallis.

We've got to put Ron Carter on there. He's got to be on everyone. Ron Carter could do it. He makes everything better, and he was on most of these recordings anyway. That's right. But I think you would have to put Jimmy Garrison in the mix on this era. Young Jimmy Garrison would be fun to hear. James Garrison.

Gotcha. James Garrison. Justin. Yes. Just because of his connection to Reggie Workman training off in the... For sure.

For sure. Drums, maybe Max Roach, but I mean, come on. That would be weird. What about trombone? I got Tony Williams possibly, too. On trombone?

No, drums. Trombone. I don't think anybody could do this. I mean, not that comes to... I mean, JJ, of course, can do anything, I guess. On the trombone, certainly doing that.

Yeah, it would have to be JJ. That's how good Curtis is on this, I think. It's true. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I forgot about the bespoke genre.

Oh, this is the first time. Usually Adam is ahead of you on it. So this will be good. In real time, this is like when we compose a song in 20 minutes. You remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This will be like that.

See if you can, in the next 10 seconds. I'll give you some music. A bespoke. Oh, thank you. This doesn't help at all, but I appreciate that. I mean... I don't know why I'm playing this.

I don't have a good one for this. I do feel like... So my bespoke genre is mid-Met messenger. Mid-Messinger. Because this is the middle, it was a long period. Entering the middle period of the messenger

went all the way to 1990. I think the messengers, the jazz, our playing the jazz messengers is such an institution that you have to recognize that as its own genre. Right.

Almost, you know. Okay, well, I'm going to amend mine in real time. I had swaggy swang, but I'm going to change to swaggy telegram swing. Why telegram? Because Messenger,

at that time, a telegram might have been a way that you delivered the shit. Swaggy telegram swang! What you know about that? Damn it! I like winning the spoked genre.

I feel like it's a real outlet for my creativity. Mid-Messinger. Can we get any blander? You want for the blanders. Mid-Messengers is as bad as this demo album that you've handed. Is that written by the mid-Messengers? Hello, my name is Adam Manus, and I love my favorite period of Art Blakey is mid-Messinger. You know what I'm going. You know what I'm going.

Mid-Messing. Oh, Kail's right. Mid-Mend means like kind of bland. need oil. Okay. Need oil. You know what? I'm going to blame

the background music that you were playing, Peter, that it was just so mid. It was so mid. I will reiterate mine swaggy telegram swing. Okay.

Wait, wait, wait. Keep going. There's no re-dews. I got a different one. There's no redoes in this band. Another bespoke genre? Yeah. Hit hop.

Because of all the hits that are in these arrangements. Bav-d-d-d-do-d-d-d-do. Like all those, like, rhythm-section hits that are underneath all of the melodies, hit hop. Hit hop.

I've got a name for the apispoke genre called Oversplaining. Okay. Okay. All right. I feel like the cover. Caleb, can you put up the cover, please? Are we going to rate it?

Oh, yeah, that's right. We're going to talk about it. It's the coming caravan. Ooh, they kind of stole our thumbnail design. With the green outline. I think it's a really good cover. I don't think it's a very good, not great.

special. Yeah, I think it's a B-plus. I think the riversides are distracting and all the stereos are also distracting. I think they were going for something stylized there, but it didn't work. I love the... Kind of like hit-hop. I love the suit and the pocket square and the pose that Blake is doing here. It's a good picture. But it's a little bit of a portrait. It's like, let's go to the mall. Oh, you're a drummer? We've got a drum set here. Can you? A little bit, yeah. Yeah, it could have been a little better, probably. Yeah. But it's an iconic cover for sure. For sure. And it brings up a lot of nostalgia and emotion connected to a great record. What does that say at the top? Stereo? Stereo. Stereo.

But then it says mono, too. It's both. No, just says stereo. It says stereo. Okay. Good. Okay. Hot takes, Peter, what do you got? Hantz or hot takes? Well, my hot take, I'm going to reverse one of my previous hot takes, which is how much I despise the bonus track. I kind of like them on this because they're killing. There's only two of them. If they're at the end of the record.

They're at the end, I believe they're in. give you a different look at the takes. I'm all for them. I'm all for them. And these are like, I think because I just like this record so much and I just want more of it. Like, I've always enjoyed those.

And I think when I first heard this, it was not an LP situation. It was a CD situation. So I think that was part of my original experience. And I did enjoy that. But also another hot take on this is, oh wait, did I put that somewhere else? Oh, we forgot under overdogs, sir.

We'll go back to, we'll go to those next. What's your hot takes? So my hot take. is, and this might be more of a rant, but the mentor-mente system of the jazz messengers is something that's dearly missed. Yes, and needed. In some modern music genres.

And not even necessarily jazz, but, like, I feel like it's a great system for getting the quality of the music up, and it's really proven here, you know? Does it lead to an inbred nepotistic system? I mean, there's downsides to every system.

There's no perfect, there's no perfect political system or artistic system for learning anything. There's nothing's perfect. And there's downsides and managed to everything, of course. But I think this is something that you don't see a lot of, as much of, I think directly in this way, where you would be a part of someone else's project like this for a couple of years with other young musicians and learn your craft from a leader who would then send you to the clubs. Send you the clubs. Can you be out of the one out of a 12? Yeah, as a star. I think that's an incredible thing. Agreed. All right. Let's talk about some underrated things of this record. And if there is anything overrated, actually, I don't have anything overrated.

But underrated, I have, this is kind of silly one, but Art Blakey as a band leader, as a drummer. Is that underrated? Is that rated just correctly? Well, I think sometimes there's this feeling that it's like, because he's a drummer, it's like, oh, this was a cooperative group, which obviously it was the arrangements, many of them were Freddie or Waynes or just different folks. But I think that like when you look at the longevity of the messenger's system, like that's really Blakey. Like that's the one thing. That's the through current.

Like that's the connector with there. So when we talk about great band leaders, does Art Blanky come up? I guess he does. But he should be at that top of the list with your Duke Allentons, with your count bases, as he mentioned.

Because for small groups, I don't think it got any better than this. Of course, Miles Davis was a great bandleader. But is Art Blakey any less of a band leader? He's right up there in the discussions, I think. Agreed. Yeah. Another underrated thing that you have here

is heavy arranging, which I agree with. Yeah. I think it depends on the kind of music, but for this kind of straight ahead post-bop playing, I think having some really nice arrangements on these original compositions and covers is a really advantage to this record.

Yeah, for sure. It's not just head charts. Like, they're playing a book. Yeah, exactly. And it's great. And it's like, if you're going to do a standard, yeah, they could have just got up there and played Skylark and it's going to be great.

They could just go down there. But I mean, I think what makes this album great is actually a function of the pretty heavy arranging. You know. Underrated, drum souls to start an album. It's not the first time it's happened, but every time it's done well, it's a fun thing. I love it.

It's an exciting start. Also underrated, Cedar Walden as an accompanist. Again, his chord voicings throughout this record are a thing of beauty to behold. I like the way you spelled that. You spelled it, a pianist. You combine, that could be a new word for us. A accompanist combined with pianists.

I feel so bad about my bespoke genre performance that I'm trying to invent new words. good. That could be its own bespoke. I mean, this is stupid that I put it. Freddie as a composer, underrated. That is, maybe not talked about enough. I think it's not, he's not, I mean, we talk about Wayne Shorter, we talk about Monk as jazz composers. We don't talk about Freddie Hubbard as much, but maybe he deserves to be

in that conversation with Herbie and Wayne and all these cats, you know. Agreed. Underrated in general is Curtis Fuller is a friggin monster. I know. I mean, what a player. Really, really, really, really not just because he's a trombonists. We're not just saying that. Yeah, not just good for trumpet.

We love your trombonists. We really do, but you don't get enough credit because Curtis Fuller is a total badass on this album. Kill it. Yeah. Krily. Is this album Caravan by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers?

The Apex Mountain for anything. Are there any Apex Mountains to Chief? This might be Blakey's Apex Mountain for me. Oh, Art Blakey as A bandleader and the Jazz Messengers? Or just Art Blakey, the drummer. I think maybe both. Maybe both.

It's certainly for the jazz messengers. I think this is the best period for them, and this might be the best record in their best period. I think, of course, there's arguments to be made for... Yeah, of course, who gets you should be the next. And then there's the bands with the Marcellus brothers and Bobby Watson and all the late 80s stuff was great. Great fans.

Actually, underrated bands in the 70s and 80s with Blakey, for sure. There was the Chuck Manjillo band. Chuck Mangione, but there's all these eras that all have a different flavor and have some really incredible compositions and playing on them and we should actually shed some more light

on some of that stuff. Yeah, yeah. But I do think artistically, I think as for this thing that he was doing, this might be the Apex Mountain. Nice. Good. I mean, I'm not gonna argue with you on that.

Because it's like Freddie, as great as he's playing, you couldn't say this is his Apex Mountain. No. Or Wayne. Or Wayne. Maybe Curtis Fuller. It might be Curtis Fuller's Apex Mountain. Yeah.

It's not Reggie Workman's. No. It's not... And beyond solid. It's not Cedar Walton's. Yep. But yeah, it might be Blakeys. Right.

Which is good. That's what you want from one of your most famous albums. Snobobometer, Peter, what do you got? Snobometer, this is a tough one. How snobby is this album? I don't think it's super snobby. It's not as snobby as it could be.

It's not out to lunch. No, definitely not. It's not... So remind me, are we low? If it's not... Is it a five? If it's more snobby, it's higher. Okay, so I would say five.

I would say it's probably a six. Oh, okay. Five. You got to go six. If I'd said six, what would you have said? I was thinking it was... So you're saying a little bit on the snobby side. I don't just phone this in.

Okay. No, but the only reason I would say a little lower, and maybe even lower than five, is that if I were to ask you, you can pick one Art Blakey record to recommend to Aunt Lynn. you're going to give it as a gift. It has to be an R. Blakey record, but you want her to enjoy it. Not as much as her favorite,

whatever her favorite thing is, but what would be the highest level that she could enjoy an Rakey record? It might be live at Birdland. It might be a little bit more accessible. Is that? I think so. If it's Clifford Brown and,

let's say it's Sonny Rollins on Tener Sacks one instead of Wayne Shorter, I think it's a little more accessible to Onlinda. I think Wayne Shorter, I think Freddie are fire and playing some crazy stuff what we love, but I think that turns off some casual interlisteners. I think a lot of snobbs would be like, well, this record is not as good as three, was it,

three blind mice? Which is good. Or Lugatsu, probably. Yeah. This one's a little bit more mainstream. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know, man.

This is pretty good. Yeah. Better than KO.B. No. Kind of blue by Miles Davis. I don't think so. No. I'm going to say no, but close.

Close. Closer than most. Yeah, it's up there. It's up there, but I don't think it's better than KOB. Yeah. Well, this is just good. Good. This is our first, our Blakey record, right? I think so. Yeah. And this is, I'm glad

we're starting with this one, because this is my favorite our Blakey record, I think. That's right. That's good. Well, until next time. You'll hear it. Coming back. Coming back. Coming back. We're coming back. We're coming back. Oh, there we are. Wow, we look a little bit flat. But anyway, we have to answer the question. I want you to see

if, like, who would you guess that I did a record with? Is it Curtis Fuller? It is. Can we go visual on this, Caleb? I got it. I got it. Would this work here? Look at this. I've never heard this record.

Curtis Fuller in New Orleans. This was recorded in 2002. Maurice Brown on trumpet. Javon Jackson, saxophone, Peter Martin, piano, Bill Huntington, the great Bill Huntington,

a young, I believe, a young Jason Marsalis. I've never heard this record. I will be listening to it, though. We had such a good time doing this. Curtis was amazing. Wow. Yeah, incredible.

There you go. Awesome. Until next time. You'll hear it.