You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Unicorn Pockets

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

Today on the You'll Hear It podcast, Peter and Adam discuss some of the best rhythm players of all time and the "pockets" they helped define during their career. Improve your own rhythm playing with courses from Open Studio - check out Rhythm Section Fundamentals and Rhythm Section Workout!Unicorn Pockets (listen to them all with our Spotify playlist)Charlie Parker - "Just Friends"Ray Brown - "Noreen's Nocturne"Tony Williams - "Seven Steps To Heaven"Bootsy Collins - "Dr. Funkenstein"Pat Metheny - "James"Brad Mehldau - "It's All Right With Me"J Dilla - "Jay Dee 10"Cory Henry - "Lingus"Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Peter. Hey, do you believe in unicorns? I believe in princess unicorns. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Music advice, coming at you. Coming at you today, we are sponsored by Open Studio.

Go to Open StudioJas.com for all your jazz. Woo! All your jazz lesson needs. Peter, I'm so excited about today's episode. You know, it's called Unicorn Pockets. Do you have any idea about what I'm about to hit you with? With Unipot. I have absolutely no.

idea. But did you catch my office reference in the intro? I did, but it took some explaining, actually. Some spaining. Some spaining. Some dad spaining. As the music was playing of what the hell you were talking about. But I fully admit that the title I gave this, Unicorn Pockets, needs some explaining. So here's the deal with today's episode, folks. I was listening, well, we've been listening to a bunch of different players on our Tuesday night sessions live on YouTube. By the way, if you want to check that out, that's 8 p.m. every Tuesday night on YouTube, we've been going live this whole time during the lockdown, listening to different records. We were listening to a record by Chick-Korea the other night. Ever heard of them? Ever heard of them? And I thought of all the

time fields that have been so influential in music in my life, Chick-Korea is certainly being one of them. But people who came along and their sense of groove, their sense of time, the way they put the notes, even if it's notes that other people are playing, but the way they do them, change the game. So I have a list here of players From the fours or players Players I have one from the 40s One from the 50s one from the 60s one from the 70s one from the 80s One from the 90s one from the 2000s and then one from the 2010s

Okay Nobody from the 20s not this 20 We just started that We're still in we're still in the middle of it But we could put some nominations in at the end if we wanted to But so the idea with this is that each one of these players totally changed the game with their pocket. They're unicorns with their pockets.

They're so special. They're so rare. They changed how the music feels. Here's the cool thing about as I was putting this playlist together on Spotify, which, by the way, we'll put a link here to the Spotify playlist. If you want to listen to all of these tracks more and listen to them in full, go to that Spotify playlist. But as I was putting together, I realized that some people when they hear these might be like,

oh, yeah, well, that just sounds like jazz of that era. Well, for a reason. because this person made jazz sound like this in that time frame. So I thought, you have a question? Well, excuse me, sir, can I raise my head? No, I was just saying, do we want to, maybe you could just sort of break down what you mean by pocket briefly for those. Oh, yeah, yeah, good call.

So a pocket is where you place the groove and the time. And it's very personal. So you might say that person is in the pocket. And that means that they're playing the rhythm and they're playing the groove. in a way that feels very good. That could be a meaning of good, but everybody also has a unique pocket, right? So everybody has their own pocket,

where they put the groove, where they fit into the time. And all of these players on our unicorn pockets list have unicorn pockets. They have such a special sense of time. Sounds painful. It does. They have, you should see the image

on the Spotify playlist. It's a unicorn in a pocket. I don't know who made it, but there's many options. Google images, man. When I googled unicorn pockets, There were way too many options. But Unicorn Pocket, I thought, was a fun way to just express this idea that every so often a person comes along with such a unique and awesome way to play music that even when some of these people are doing things that everybody else was doing around them, but the way they did it was so influential that now everyone after them can't help but be influenced by the Unicorn Pocket.

You know what's so cool about it too. Unicorn Pocket, it's very similar sounding to Uniform Pocket. which is actually the opposite. You know what I'm saying? Because I think that that's the beginning, like you learn how to play in a uniform pocket for a certain group, which is fine. And like a beginner level,

it's better to have some pocket and be a kind of uniform or a generic kind of pocket. But what I think that you're referring to and what the unicorn pocket, look, I'm talking about it like, it's been a phrase we've thrown around. You just told it to me seven minutes ago.

It's going to catch on, though. All of our listeners, I want you to hashtag unicorn pocket when you hear someone you like. You're Nate Smith, play a drum groove, hashtag unicorn pocket. Right, right. But the place, the placement of the beat, as you said,

being a unique, almost like a thumbprint, like the DNA of where you place. Like, so this is not even a question of like, are you in the pocket? Do you have pocket? No, no, no. These are all folks that that's not, but it's about what is your pocket. It's not a uniform pocket. It's a unicorn pocket. It's a

unicorn pocket. If we say it enough, it becomes a thing, man. There's also another synonym, can also mean groove playing. Like you hear people say, oh, he's a pocket player. Right. Meaning that they play grooves. That's what I was thinking about at first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which it definitely could mean that I've always heard it used also in the sense of someone's sense of time or sense of groove. Yeah. It's great. Many meanings, but we're going to use the term unicorn pocket from here. It's also a thing attached to your pants that you put your pocket in. That's what I'm saying, man.

I'm going to get, you'll hear it jackets made up with unicorn pockets. You know what's funny. My kids, they think they're great. grandmother, my mom, she uses some old She's not really old fashioned, as you know, you've met Rose before, very modern woman, but she uses some old fast, she uses an old fashion term, pocketbook.

Pocket book, are you familiar with that? I am, that's a great term. Oh, where is my pocketbook? It's a pocket book. It's a book in your pocket. I guess. Well, she's talking about like a purse, I think. I don't know. A pocket book. Oh, like a wallet. Fantastic. Fantastic.

So, we're going to start off with the 40s here. This track was recorded in 1949, although it was released in 1950. I'm going to still count this in the 40s. It happened

in the 40s. Come on now. This player, uh, really defined what jazz rhythm would become in decades after his life and death.

I chose, uh, one of his more commercial recordings, just because you can hear how his unicorn pocket rubs up against this commercial record. This is Charlie Parker from Charlie Parker with strings. This is just friends.

And I love the juxtaposition between this lush string arrangement and this very simple sort of head arrangement that the rhythm section does and bird laying his unicorn pocket his sense of time that is only him at this time him and dizzy really but would influence that whole but it's hey with all of these there's going to be a lot of people they represent let's be honest here but these are these are my faves anyway so here's just friends charlie parker well you hear what i'm saying though i think this this example it perfectly illustrates what the theme of this episode is about There's no doubt when that horn comes in, who's playing it.

It's such a signature sound, and it's so different that anything that came before him and it influenced everything that came after him. There's no doubt. I mean, it's like you hear, that's Mitch Miller on the Ovo. It's so, oh, no, that's later on in the track, actually, sorry. That's a unicorn goatee. But I think, you know, his, and I mean, I'm joking, that that is some kind of obtrusive border on. It's really nice playing.

I mean, the strings are killing it. Yeah. But the writing is a little thick. It's very thick. But I mean, you know, Charlie Parker's... Stylistic of the time, though. Stylesic of the time, for sure. But I think Charlie Parker's ability to put his imprint,

his rhythmic imprint, put that pocket in there is even more amazing because all that stuff happening. But it's just, I mean, those 16th notes that he starts with, that's like lays it down. Exactly. And then when he goes to holding the note, it's like you've established the pattern,

the groove, the pocket, already so you can do whatever you want. And again, we all have been influenced by B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-S because of Charlie Parker. Because of that genius of rhythm that he introduced. Absolutely. And I think that it's too overlooked when we analyze or possibly even over-analyzed B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-tack and what it is and start talking about harmony and, like, motivic development and, like, how a melody, you know, enclosures and all this, all that's important. But that, that rhythmic imprint, that, that, that, that, that, That's what it's about.

If you can capture that 16th note, shifting to that eighth note, do, dee de how. You know, I mean, it's just like you get that sound. I think a great, you know, unicorn pocket. Since we're using that now is something that you can sing, you know, because it's like such a strong statement. So don't be full about like, well, I can sing like that, Charlie. No, no, no, because he laid it out so clearly.

For sure. But try to come up with that. Try to come up with that. That's the thing. That's the genius of it. So speaking of the genius. of it. These next two players, I'm not even to tell you who they are.

Peter, I know you're going to guess who they are. I want to see if you can guess. So this next player, speaking of genius, his genius was in his simplicity. And you talk about someone who, when you hear him, you think like, oh, yeah, that's just how the bass sounds. It's because of him and what he did in the 50s specifically here. This is, well, I'll just say that the person here with the unicorn pocket is playing bass on this next track.

And we'll fill you in later. I want to see if Peter can guess this. Some obtrusive one and three foot tapping going on. I love that. On top much? If you could see us right now, we both have the meanest stank face going. Very stanky.

So you got a beat on this? So I don't know this recording. That's Ray Brown, though. It is Ray Brown. Now, I did kind of at first, I was like, that first line he played, I thought was Oscar Pederford. Oh. But then.

I could see that. Yeah. then when he got into his thing, but, you know, big influence. I mean, Ray Brown. Yeah, this is from live at the Stratford Shakespeare's Festival. One of my favorite OP records, but I know kind of a lesser-known one for you. I know, it's funny. I had that LP in New Orleans, so we're going back 16 years ago.

I thought I, I mean, I definitely listened to it. I never delved into it deep enough, and I want to get back into it. Is that Herbelis? Herbellis. This is Noreen's nocturn, one of my favorite things that this trio did. And I think what I love about this. We should do the Stratford. It's so good.

but this one is so great because you get to hear Ray kind of take the melody in the beginning and then when they go into that four feel it just takes off. Oh yeah. I mean, he's so far on the front of the beat and it feels amazing that far on the front of the beat. And it's not rushing.

I mean, it is not like... It's just a leaning forward a little bit. But you know what? His rhythmic imprint is already there even when he's playing the lines in between and like his entrances. And it's funny because with Ray Brown it's so easy to get kind of hypnotized

by the incredible intonation and the left-hand work. I mean, and the right hand, you know, but there's a lot of, like, just pocket already before he even gets, I mean, so when he gets to the walk, and it's kind of like Charlie Parker. It's like, they set it up, you know, and then they hit you with something better, and then they just bam. Then they're just, like, right in there. Exactly.

It's just a kind of elegance in their approach and a confidence in their imprint that makes them the pocket unicorns that they are. You interviewed your friend Gregory Hutchinson. a couple of years ago for your podcast, the process with Peter Martin. You remember that long-form podcast? That was a long form. That was a good one, though. And he talked about playing with Ray Brown,

and he said, you got to watch out, because he'll just take it out and take off on you. And he'll go on the front of the foot. But that's where that feel is, man. That's what unicorns do, man. That's what unicorns do. But here's another situation where it's just everybody after that

is copying a lot of what Ray Brown did here in the 50s specifically. Unicorns. Let my horn pierce the sky. And just a caveat to, of course, you mentioned, like, this could be so many people. But, you know, these were just my picks. There's a few different unicorns for each, you know, era of these. Oh, come on, man.

You got some good ones so far. No, no, no, no reason to qualify. No reason to qualify. So I want to move on to the 60s here. This was, there were a couple of these decades that were really hard to narrow it down to who I thought deserved the... Yeah, I'm interested to see. 60s and 70s. So I'm not going to tell you who this is.

You're going to get it right away. This was 1963, and this was the drummer on this track was the Unicorn Pocket. You ready? Elvin Jones. So close. So close. I'm just guessing. Oh.

Tony. Yeah. 18-year-old Tony Loeops. Again, watch out here. Victor Feldman. This is Herbie. That's Herbie? Yeah.

The Victor Feldman tune. Yeah. No, I know. Wow. It didn't song. So interesting on this. is that, you know, Tony, wow, what a... I know, right?

The air in that sound is unbelievable. It was almost, you know, those eighth notes, those repeated eighth notes at the beginning, it's already there, you know, on the snare drum. He's so, I mean, he's so influenced at this point by Philly Joe Jones. Like, you can hear that. Yet he's so original already.

Dude, he's 18 years old on this. He's his own player. So it's interesting that you said is that Victor Feldman on piano. This is, a lot of people might not know, but Seven Steps of Heaven had two bands on it. It's two different sessions. Yeah, that's what I thought. And it was the introduction of Miles' second great quintet, but only on three of the tracks. Right.

And actually two of those tracks were Victor Feldman tracks, but he didn't play piano on him. Herbie played piano. Okay. They were Victor Feldman composition, Seven Steps to Heaven, and Joshua, which is great. By the way, we should do an episode all about Victor Feldman. Interesting dude. Yeah, yeah. And underrated musician.

Talked with a funny accent, I believe. Yeah, but he was amazing. I was checking out some of his trio stuff. Vives and piano. Incredible. Anyway, so yeah, so the first, so four of the tracks, track 1-3, Basin Street Blues, I Fall in Love Too Easily, Baby Won't You Please Come Home?

Those are all George Coleman, Victor Feldman, Ron Carter, and Frank Butler, and then Seven Steps to Heaven. Herbie Ron Tony? Joshua. And one more, wait. boom boom bam bam smack on bang

I'm messing this up yeah I know Seven Steps of Heaven so near so far and Joshua are Herbie Ron and Tony who are

so I don't yeah I don't know and this is the same year as My Funny Valentine Four and more concert 63 I think yeah I just don't know

this record that well I don't know why I just know I mean mostly know Joshua and Seven Steps of Heaven from having to learn them but man

hearing an 18-year-old Tony Williams lay into the ride when the solo starts there, it gives me goosebumps every time. Because you just hear, first of all, there's a lot of drummers in Brooklyn that owe him a check today. Oh, I know.

Like right now. Like right now for copying his stuff. Because that straighter, super even, eighth-note ride is so, for me, it feels like just a warm blanket. And I know it's not the most

like overtly, like there's a hump in the swing kind of thing. Oh, I think it's swinging. It's intellectual a. F. Yeah. I know that, how can the eighth note ride symbol pattern be intellectual? But there's something very heady

about that ride symbol pattern. I agree. It takes a really smart artist to do what he's doing here. And he lays this air over every track that he digs in on like that that I think is, for me, so influential rhythmically,

that was what's the thing that makes Tony Williams, in my opinion, a unicorn pocket. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was a great choice. I was thinking, you know what, Elvin would have been the obvious choice, but Tony's great because in, I mean, and that's why they're kind of, of this, these years. I mean, you think about the recordings that came out, 63, 6, 4, 65, and beyond. Honestly, both of them did. I mean,

Elvin, Wayne, Herbie, and McCoy all could have been, they're all unicorn pockets. Yeah. There's a reason there. And Chick. I mean, there's so many from the 60s that could have made it. But maybe Tony's even more impressive because he's 18. That's hard to be a unicorn. It's hard for your spirit appears to sky when you're only 18 years old. That's right. Spirit to pierce the sky. Okay, so you can have a unicorn pocket, and I know we're primarily a jazz podcast, but...

I hate jazz now, so I'm ready for something new. We're past the 60s. I wanted to represent, like, for each decade, I wanted to not just represent, like, great pockets, but also, like, people who kind of defined some section of music in that decade. And there's obviously lots of different kinds of music in every decade. Our next choice is the bass player on this track. And this to me, this is from the 70s.

This is 1976. Jocko Pestorius. See, this is what you would think. I went through, actually, there was a ton of bass players we could have picked. Jocko, Paul Jackson. But I picked this guy. Okay. They say the bigger the headache, the bigger the pill, baby.

Call me the big pill. Dr. Fonkenstein, the disco theme with the monster sound. The cool, goo with the bone transplanted. Hip bone connected to my thigh bone. My thigh bone connected to my leg bone. My leg bone connected to my ankle bones. I get so hung up on bones. A Dr. Punkenstein here.

We occupy and dedicated to the preservation of the motion of hips. Come on, that. That's awesome. So this is, of course, the great Bootsie Collins. One of the greatest musicians who ever live. Shout out, by the way, to Bernie War L playing. keys on that track. I love Bernie World.

So what? Man, Bernie on the keys, on the organ. Oh, sick. But I wanted to pick someone that to me, you know, like I said, I went, you think 70s, especially with, we were talking about jazz, you think Jocko. You might think Herbie. You might think Mike Clark and Paul Jackson with the headhunters, right? But all of those guys were influenced by Bootsie Collins.

Oh, absolutely. Bootsie, and it was hard to pick which Bootsie track to play with. I went with this one because it was so funky. Yeah. But all the James Brown stuff, sex machine, you know, like that entire. Young Bootsie. Young Bootsie in the late 60s, early 70s was James Brown. But then with Parliament Funkadelic and his own band and influential beyond, of course, jazz,

because he wasn't a jazz musician who's a funk musician, but everybody from Jocko to Herbie to Miles to Joni Mitchell to people in pop music to David Bowie. You know, like influenced by Bootsie Collins. to me there was no more influential musician or it'd be hard pressed to find a more influential musician in the 70s than Bootsie. I mean, he was everywhere and he was a complete unicorn in not just, I mean, obviously in the sound and the groove,

but as a personality. I mean, as an entertainer, as a rock star, he is... Really, I never noticed him on stage. He was always kind of blending into the background. He's a bit of a wallflower. He's a bit of a wallflower. No, but he, to me, he epitomizes the 70s,

the funk groove. I mean, these are things, too, that it's not just like funk, but his grooves would influence, you know, things like like Brantford's bands in the 80s. Oh, yeah. Roy Hargrove. Ray Hargrove. Christian McBride.

Everybody after him. He lives up just like Ray Brown did in the 50s. I think Bootsie is to the 70s. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that, yeah, he's probably you know, nearly if not, in his own way, just as influential

of a bassist on the current generation as a Ray Brown or something. Certainly you'd look at somebody like Christian McBride. And yeah, I mean, have you seen him live before? Yes, it's incredible. Oh, he's so... He's like eight feet tall. Yeah. He's 115 pounds.

And he's just so skilled and can play for just hours and hours stuck in that kind of groove there. I would just throw in there to somebody who definitely he influenced, which was George Porter Jr., base player of the meters, not as well known, but George Porter also very... I mean, the meters are such a like kind of insiders. I mean, they're not that insiders. No, I know what you mean, though.

The hipsters found it. But the individual players in the meters are insiders, for sure. They're a little bit insiders, but they were hugely influential on jazz musicians and funk musicians. And then, like, through Stevie Wonder, they were hugely influential on Stevie in the mid-70s in a way that Stevie's always talked about, but a lot of people haven't picked up on.

But there's a definitely Bootsie George Porter connection there. Yeah, that was Parliament. That was Dr. Funk. That was Bootsie Collins on the base. Stevie Wonder easily could have made this list as well as someone's unicorn pocket. But he's kind of just a unicorn everything. He's a unicorn pocket, unicorn harmony, unicorn melody, unicorn vocalist, lyricist, everything. So one thing with Bootsie and with Bernie Worell and George Porter and all them, that great gang was that if you get a chance, anybody of our dear listeners, are they still our dear listeners?

That's kind of creepy. I love our listeners. Sue me because I love our listeners. No, but if you guys get a chance to go to the National African American Museum at the Smithsonian in our capital, don't go today or tomorrow because it's locked down. Yeah, you're getting close to it. Chill for a minute. Have you been to that museum? No, man.

It's relatively new. You know, every time I've ever been in D.C., I'm like in and out on gigs and I have no time to go do any of the sites. And that's the one city I want to have time to go do the sites in. Yeah, no, no, it's great. And the museum is great, but they actually have the mothership. No way. I'm serious. They have it as part of the exhibit. It's sitting right. I mean, the museum is huge and it's incredible and it covers the African-American experience in such a deep way on so many different levels. I mean, it has an entire train car in it on the first floor and just a lot of stuff.

But there's a whole room that's specifically about music. It's got like it has Herbie Hancock's Rocket microphone, like the Shire microphone that he recorded. You know, just a little interesting little art. Because, you know, it's a museum. It's not just about, you know, it's like showing through artifacts. And so how do you show this era of, you know, funk music? How does it get a bet? And it's huge. I mean, it's like the one of the ones from the stage.

Thank you to all the nerds at the Smithsonian for collecting and documenting everything in American history. It's awesome. And Lonnie, big shout out to Lonnie Bunch, Dr. Lonnie Bunch, I believe, I hope I'm not messing up his name. I think that's him, who was really the force and was like, I think he's still, oh, no, he was the original director of the museum. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And now he's actually become, I believe, the head of the whole Smithsonian. He got promoted. Yeah. But I think I saw a profile on him actually just a few weeks ago and one of those like NPR, CPS Sunday morning things or something. Yes, that would be it. But I actually got to be, I was part of a private tour with just like 10 people that he led. And I didn't know who he was.

Look at you. I was part of a private tour. It was kind of a fancy thing. Uh-huh. I slipped in. Were you with Obama or something? Well. George Clooney?

No, no. It was just, I slipped in. And I didn't slip in. But I was part of a. group we were playing at the Kennedy Center and they wanted to oh were you come over and see it yeah sorry okay anyway I was playing so with Chappelle oh cool I was helping him I was honoring him come on honoring my brother no but Lonnie bunch did the tour for us and he was so on assuming but like as he's showing us around I'm like man this guy really knows all about and then I started like

listening to his stories and this guy really knows he's talking he's really he knows and he knows every you know usually like a docent or something would know one room or the other I think he knows every room with like the origins. Wow. It was such an honor to be. Why the security guard saluting him? That's weird. It was truly an honor.

All right. So we'll move on to the 80s next. What do you think about the unicorn pockets? Man, I'm digging the blue. Now I can't wait for each decade to roll by. Unlike my life, when I'm scared is the decades roll by. So before I do my 80s unicorn pocket, I'm curious, if you just top of your head and there's no pressure, who's your 80s unicorn pocket? Oh, 80s.

It's a tough one, right? It is. Well, you've got me think. It's funny because like Tony Williams, I feel like could, because I first heard him in the 80s live, you know, and I was like so, okay. And it could be boots. Boots. It could have been the 80s as well. But now, so I picked the decade where I think most of these people came to their pocket was like in the foreground.

Yeah. I mean, Jeff Watts. That was a big one. That was like second place on my list. That was a huge. Are we doing too many drummers? Oh, no. We'll see that.

I also wanted to switch up the vibe a little bit because there are so many different kinds. of pockets. Right. I bet you don't have a cellist on this list. I don't have a cellist on this list, actually. I could.

Bjorn Rannheim. Big shout out to Casals, Pablo. Keep on stringing. I wanted to switch up the vibe a little bit for these next two actually are a little bit.

They're a little bit different kinds of pockets, but they are still rhythmically super influential. I'm not going to even tell you this one because I think you're going to get it. Okay.

This is from 1982. You ready? 1982. And the unicorn pocket on this is the guitarist. Ooh. How killing it.

Oh, it's killing. I think the same orchestrator from Bird on Strings orchestrated that triangle, though. Wow. Maybe it's just my headphones. Yeah. So that Pat Mathini. I want to get to the solo, though. Okay. This is Pat Mathini James. Yeah, yeah. Again, it's so easy to take for granted for granted that. Again, it's so easy to take for granted like that. Yeah. Because so many people now sound like that. Yeah. That there was a time where people didn't sound like that. And Pat Mathini came along and sounded like that. And now so many guitarists sound like that. Yes. phrase like that and have that similar sound. But that rhythmic feel, I think he was such an innovator. I mean, we think about him as a melodic player. Right, right. But melody is part rhythm, and he has a very unique sense of the pocket, a very unicorn pocket.

And I mean, I think that, yeah, he's such a melodic player. And, but, you know, rhythm, it's almost like it's the sort of pattern manifestation of what creates a great melody. is that rhythmic feel. You know, without that, especially in, with any kind of music that has a groove. And I know all music does have a group, but we're talking about something that's like

either kind of like a backbeat or a swing or like something, I think the stronger or more overt the groove is, the more, you know, the more a great melodist, melodist, you know, somebody who can create wonderful melodies. Keep going. Somebody named melody, perhaps, I don't know. A unicorn.

I want my spirit of, to touch this guy and I saw pierce this guy. But the more important it is to have that pocket, you know, and even like when we were talking about you had a couple bass players, some great bass players but that's, I mean, those are great melodic players too. Oh, for sure, Ray Brown, yeah. Bootsie Collins. Beautiful melodic playing. Very, very, very melodic

playing. So it's that intersection. Well, Tony Williams, too, I would put as a melodic player. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way his drums are tuned the precision. But, man, I love Pat Mathini so much. We haven't given Pat enough love on here but I know he's so influential on me as a musician first of all just is just like bootsy just like Tony as someone who's who's willing to just step up and be themselves and play their own music the way they like to it and I think too with Pat because he's so laid back as a person and like the way he dresses and looks on stage and his hair's from

Missouri here exactly just a plain looking dude but it's like you he has such an effortless kind of mastery of his instrument I mean, he's a virtuoso, obviously. But these kind of things that are so important. I mean, he wouldn't be, we wouldn't be talking about him and he wouldn't be revered like he is had he not, had he not had that kind of rhythmic feel and precision and pocket playing. And when you really start to analyze it, you're like, well, like when he wasn't a double time, like that's very Pat. Yep. Like very pat way of playing.

Oh, my God. Great stuff. Those triplets in the groups of four and five were very much him. And shout out to Lyle Mays, who we lost this year. Yes. Yes, one of the giants we lost. Man, amazing, just a painter on the keys, really, truly. That's incredible pianists, too.

Incredible pianists. That's the Pat Mathini Group off-ramp. That's James from 1982. ECM, right? ECM, go check it out. That's one of the great records of the early age. We didn't get dinged on this podcast. Okay, I'm not going to tell you this next one either.

Okay. What are in the 90s? We're in the 90s. I remember the 90s. You probably don't remember the 90s. I do. I picked the 90s that was important to me. This person is...

Kid play? Kid play. Okay, nice. This is late 90s. Okay. So it's towards the late part of the 90s. Now, this is someone... We're getting close to Y2K here.

I know. What you know about that? Yeah, well, I almost made a bad joke. But this is someone who was so influential that there was almost a little backlash against them. This is the pianist on this record. Okay. You got it up here? That's Brad Meltdown.

It is Brad. That is Bradman. And Larry Grenadier and Jorge Rossi. Shout out to Larry Grenadier, by the way. Can a sound be that big? I know. I know. And I'm almost like, the way they have this mixed, it's almost a little boomy, but he still transcends that, I think.

It's live at the vanguard. Yeah. So, you know, I think Brad Mel, though, again, kind of like Pat Metheny where you think melody with Brad, for me, I was, the first thing that comes to mind is this great, amazing harmonic sensibility. Yeah. But he definitely has a very distinctive rhythmic pocket. Yes. And very distinct ways of phrasing, all those like, like those short endings of phrase. Yeah.

That has been aped beyond repair. Oh my gosh. Going to any little jazz club in southern Germany right now. Dude, it's just all that. And there's, again, a lot of very famous younger musicians that owe their sound to this particular, especially this. Name names. Name names.

I won't. They're friends of the podcast. And some of them are on the podcast. But this era, especially when Brad was playing these Art of the Trio records with Larry and Jorge. His phrasing here was super influential on players who were about my age, to be honest. Yes. Yeah, and I mean, I think that Brad, I think you hit the nail on the head with his rhythmic unicornness

emanates from his phrasing. You know, I think everybody that you've picked does to a certain degree, but there's different gradients of like where it kind of comes from and why. And I think that that is one aspect of his playing. It's super unique and really informs his, that kind of rhythmic intensity. Especially like, you hear it on something like this very intimate sounding recording. I mean, all this stuff that he did, the Vanguard.

I remember hearing this trio live at the Vanguard during this time, which was a lot of fun. Yeah. But they, you know, he's always on the verge of going to a couple of different times, but also plays loose enough within each of those times. You talk about like the kind of triplet feel, the double time feel, right within the eighth note kind of late. he's the ability to lay back or to push through or almost go like out of time

usually comes from a place of like so much pocketness that you can do that not the other way around you know yeah yeah and I think Brad's always been really good at that I never like listen to these records like you did coming up uh because I was out there with Brad you were doing stuff at this point yeah but no but I but I just heard him more like I mean I did listen to him but it wasn't like I think it's always fun and it wasn't just when I was younger like there's been stuff more recently like when you grab hold of certain records it could be It's never time to listen to everything, which is great. Like everybody now wants to try to be an expert on everything, and you shouldn't be.

You should have those special things. But it's cool for somebody like this, because I can tell you the way that he played live and still does is just with that same kind of verb and vibe that he brings to this. Well, and you can imagine, you know, being a 15 or 16 year old trying to figure out the piano. Trying to figure out jazz and what people are doing. Yeah. And I'm, you know, at this point, I'm super into Herbie. I know that nothing's changed really. Yeah.

Herbie Nichols and Herbie Hennacles and Oscar Pedersford. No. But I heard this and I was like, what is happening? Yeah. You know what I mean? I just like, you already knew what was happening. But I was like, as a 15-year-old musician, and you're trying to figure out what is he, how is he feeling that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that to me is the mark of a unicorn pocket. And I'm still such a sucker for it, man. Brad, you can do whatever you want. You can gaze at your shoes. I'll buy it. I'll buy it every time, Brad. The other thing is I heard the in real, in somewhat real time, that kind of evolution, you know, like all of us, the natural evolution of young Brad Mellick's when I first saw him play. And I want to say we're maybe exactly the same age.

You're around the same age. I mean, you guys were doing the same things with some of the same bands. You replaced him in Joshua Redmond's band, right? Right, exactly. Yeah. Okay, wow. So we are five days apart. Oh my God. 1970. Holy cow. I didn't realize we were that close. So, but I remember the first time I heard him play, I mean, maybe I don't think I'd heard him on any recordings before this. It was with Chris Holiday. Christopher Holiday, remember that guy? No. You don't, nobody remembers him. Why remember him?

Christopher Hollidays was a young phenom alto player. It sounds really familiar. Yeah. I mean, like he was the bees' knees, as we would say back in the day. Like everybody, he had a big record contract on RCA right before Roy Hargrove. Okay. But no one's familiar. And Brad was playing with him.

And I mean, I want to say, did Brad go to the new school? Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. I know because that's why I went to the school Yeah and I think I might have met him When I met Larry Goldings When I first went up to Julia

But I don't think Brad was there yet Larry Goldings was born two days after you there No no he was Larry's maybe a couple years old A bit Larry Goldings was like the yeah Brad wasn't there because Larry Goldens was the dude Because I used to go down there It was the very first year That the new school had a jazz program

Arnie Lawrence was the director And my friend Mike Wilner Spike Wilner Spike Wilner was in that first class Come on now. And he's like, you got to meet my friend Larry Goldings. He's great. I like, Larry Gold rings.

Who is that? No, Goldings. And Larry had an apartment on Fifth Avenue down in the village. Yeah. With like a balcony. I was like, man, this dude, baller. Wow. And then he could just play.

Everybody was like late. Yeah, but Brad wasn't there yet. By the way, Larry Goldings may be the best jazz Instagram follower. You're really good. You're good Instagram follow. But Larry Goldings is one of the smartest. Amazing Instagram follower. Yeah.

Catch him on the gram. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But, but yeah, no. So I heard Brad play with Christopher Holiday at the Saratoga Jazz Festival. This must have been like 90, 2, I think. Wow.

Because I was playing with, yeah, I was playing with jazz futures. You guys were young. 22-year-old, Peter, 22-year-old. 21-year-old. 21-year-old Peter and Brad. Yeah. Wow. But he was just like straight bebop, you know, just.

So you know what's funny is, just for our listeners out there, like I've talked to so many musicians who don't play straight bebop, who play, I. out stuff, very modern stuff. Every one of them, including you, went through, including me, including Brad,

went through a straight bebop phase. Just for all young musicians out there. Just consider that. Oh, yeah. Come on.

That's how cool. So our next are 2000s, which obviously Brad could have spilled into the 2000s. That's good of Pat Mathini, actually. Yeah.

That's good of Ray Brown. That's good of Ray Brown. Yeah. Tony Williams. But our next one, I think, I mean, talk about, this is a straight up

as maybe boots, see as much of a pocket as this guy when you think of pocket. This is a hip-hop producer named Jay Dilla who is become one of the most influential musicians ever. Yeah. And he

actually tragically died when he was 32 in 2006, but he worked with a ton, ton, ton of amazing not just hip-hop musicians, but jazz musicians and neo-soul musicians. And his pocket

the way he structured grooves on drum machines and computers has been now so influential amongst musicians who play live instruments like Chris Dave, like our friend Mark Kolenberg, who is a student of his, really. Kareem Riggins, you know, like DeAngelo. All of these people worked with him at some point or were influenced by him and learned from him, and it has now become just part of the fabric of the sound

that you hear now with, especially young musicians. who play groove music. And there's a whole, he has spawned a whole genre called lo-fi hip-hop. I don't know if you know anything about low-fi hip-hop. I don't know it. I keep seeing that character on YouTube, where you can watch it for four-hour street. And like all of these, there's a lot of cheap imitations.

And they're like, oh, yeah, that just sounds like low-fi hip-hop. Just delay the snare drum. It's Dilla style. But Dilla style, exactly. Dilla is a style, but he was a man. And he created. his own feel and it's quite a bit of magic. This is just

from one of the many instrumental compilation albums. He was prolific and he had tons of tracks and you can check out a lot of his work. I mean, like, it worked a lot with Common. Again, DeAngelo made his own albums, but this is just a little sample. Slum Village. Old school, Slum Village. And I think

what to listen here for with this track is listen to where each, like where the snare drum lines up with the bass and where the bass lines up with the percussion, where each thing lines up with itself. It's so unexpected. It creates this hump. It's the same thing as Ray Brown leaning on the front edge, right? It creates this tension in the groove. A lot of the pockets here from Bootsie kind of being on the back edge a little bit, you know, and Ray Brown and Brad

Meldow kind of being on the front edge a little bit, Charlie Parker being a little bit on the front edge. It's the same thing here. With Jay Dillow, there's things on the front edge, there's things on the back end. Let's check it out. That warble, by the way, is intentional. Yeah. This is what I'm saying. When people say that electronic music can't be soulful or feel human or organic. Or organic. Yeah.

Or gluten-free. Shuts that down so easily because it's so, has so much grit and earth and soul. And you can hear him actually playing the drum machine without being quantized, which is where you line it up on a grid. I mean, it's just a thing of beauty. And it's a real, honest-to-God, unicorn pocket. Absolutely. And, I mean, you really hear.

especially with a collaborative artist like Jay Dilla in terms of that's where the unicorn this can often kind of jump out. I mean, Tribe Call Quest and Common and like a lot of the tracks that he produced and collaborated on and really just created.

You hear his imprint, obviously, but then you hear some of the top level artists hitting their stride and kind of being welcomed into his world and his rhythmic perception. And where that sucks with the production.

Yeah. Because you can't really, you can't separate Jay Dilla in terms of how he felt the groove and how he produced the track and how he played the track. It was all part of one thing. Beautiful artists like all of these.

And, you know, his influence is still being felt today. I mean, you can watch videos of people like Jacob Collier break down how to do that. Yeah. In live real time. And it's fascinating. Wait, Jacob Collier broke something down in like a mathematical way?

That's crazy, yeah? That's crazy. Well, and our next artist, so the 2010s is represented here by snarky puppies, Corey Henry. Who? Corey Henry. Did he play a solo? A much unanalyzed solo by any chance?

Oh, this solo needs no analysis, my friend. There's no need to do it. We gave none. Why don't you tell the story of our now infamous? You can go on YouTube and watch us break down this solo and then just read it. Big shout out to YouTube. Big shout out to the boys on YouTube, Adam and Peter. We didn't know what we were doing.

You know what? We don't know anymore now. That's the funny thing. So we did an episode. No, not right now. We did an episode of this podcast many moons ago where we broke down the solo. It's like a couple of months ago. We broke down the solo from that we're about to play for you now from Lingus from a snarky puppy record.

But we made the fatal error. Well, not fatal because we are alive, but barely alive. We got a little brushback. I don't know if you got a lot of brushback. But we made the fatal error of titling it something like solo analysis. So we didn't. We titled it solo analysis and there was no analysis. It was literally just us reacting, being like, woo.

So that's fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. But also, people can be mean. Exactly. Yeah. This is Corey Henry. The memes.

The memes. This is in Snarky Puppies, Lingus, his now famous solo. By the way, a lot of Jay Della influence in this solo. Yes, with that band. This whole band. And so to me, I'll pause it here because maybe we can go out on this solo, Peter. What do you think? Yeah.

But let's give this solo a little bit of publicity because folks haven't got a chance to hear this one yet. So everybody knows this solo. But to me, this defines, you know, the 2010s. This is one of the unicorn pockets. Corey Henry came on the scene and really lit it on fire. 2014 was when this was released. And their video, of course, blew up. And it's all about his rhythmic pocket on this.

There's not a lot, I think, harmonically or melodically that Chick Korea didn't, hasn't done. Or Herbie hasn't done or Brad Meldo hasn't done. But it's with Corey. very beautiful, very, again, organic and personal pocket here that makes this so damn special. But I'm very interested to see, and we got a couple quick messages before we play this, but to see without the visuals, because this is such a great video and watching

Corey Henry, I mean, it's like the band members react. Yeah, yeah, but it's almost the opposite. It's not shoegazing, it's like stargazing, right? He's, like, he's into it, but it's such a great corollary and connection with what he's playing. so this will be interesting to see if it holds up. I think it will without that. He's in a trance.

So what are the messages before we... We're brought to you by Open Studio. This is an Open Studio podcast. Did you know that? And production. And production. This is a self-produced podcast by the wonderful Open Studio, Open Studio Jazz. Go to Open Studio Jazz.

To become a member of our community, our thriving global community that is connected as we stay socially distanced through this great music and many, many others. That's right. Thanks, everybody for listening. Yeah, thanks. This is Snarky Puppy. and Lingus, we're going to try to pick it up right here at the solo. Oh, we've got to back up just a little.

Yeah. You've got to hear all that stuff. Yeah, back that thing out. There it is. Now the analysis begins. You'll hear it, folks. You'll hear it. You'll hear it.