You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Wait... the 80's hit THIS HARD?

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

Black Codes From The Underground... Is it the seminal modern jazz album of the 80's? Adam and Peter check out the incredible album from early in Wynton and Branford Marsalis' career. How did this album effect you?Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Adam, what you know about this? I like this. Come on now. I'm Adamannis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music, Explored. Explored brought to you by Open Studio.

Go to open studio jazz.com for all your jazz lesson needs. Peter. Are you ready to travel back in time? I didn't know we were doing this today. This is exciting. This is some real music right here. I wanted to surprise you a little bit. We're going back to a time called the 80s.

Shoulder pads. Man, I am stoked. Gordon Gecko. Winton Marsalis. Hornedrimmed glasses. Wait, to this. Those are things I think about as far as the 80s, right? Is Michael Douglas on this record?

Michael Douglas, yes. He could have been. I'm excited. I'm pumped up, baby. Yeah, so today we are listening to Witten, Marsalis' is 1985, seminal recording black codes from the underground. Peter, this might be the album of the decade for the 1980s. As far as hardcore jazz fans are concerned.

Right. Are we going to be making that judgment today? No, we don't necessarily have to put a pin in that and really lock that down. But I can't think of another album from this decade that has probably been more influential on the people that came after it. You know what I mean? The playing on it really, I think, made the avant-Camp. guard in the 90s what it was, like the straight ahead, spurners, what they were, which is funny

because I'm not sure if that's what the intention was for this album at all. No, I don't think so. Yeah, but I mean, certainly we've talked to many people, many younger musicians, musicians younger than us, who list this as one of their main influences. Right, but it's a little bit of an unusual thing because all that's true what you just said, but at the same time, I feel like it's not a record that's talked about a lot, not like continually. It's not sort of in the zeitgeist of great jazz albums of the last 40 years, I would say. Which is weird.

I feel like, well, it is in a certain circle, but you're right. In general, in like the general jazz media, it's maybe not talked about enough. Yeah, maybe not. And which maybe we'll get into a little bit, some of the primary actors in this recording, namely Winston Marcellus, I would say. I thought you were going to say again, Michael Douglas, Trone. Right. No, I mean, some of the primary players on this record think it's of question.

not artistic merit, but like, I know Winton has talked about that he doesn't think it's as important of a record of his output as many others think that it is. He doesn't even think it's top five or top ten, I don't think. This is a whole other discussion. Like, does he have a say in that? You know what I mean? Well, I mean, how can you be objective about your own? Yeah, it's hard to be objective, but also like, you know, kind of the people are speaking. Right. They love this, you know, so. Right. Well, it was a hugely influential album for me because of, the timing of hearing it and just my love of the sound. And it's really one of those records that made me want to play this, play this music.

I was already playing the piano and I was already playing jazz. You were 14 probably. I was 14 years old, yeah. This hit you right in the gut, didn't it? Yeah, that's an impressionable age. It can be or it can just be at age where you're zoning out. And also, when I think of this record, I think of it as having like a very aggressive, youthful spirit.

Weren't a lot of these cats teenagers at the time that they made? Well, I know Charnett Moffitt, who played bass on almost the whole record was like 16 years old. Oh my gosh. I don't know if he was 16 when he made this record, but when I first heard him play around the corner from here, and he's playing in Witton's band. He was 16 or 17.

Taine had to be a kid too. Tane was actually a little older than Winton. Are you serious? I believe so. I thought he was younger. Or around the same age, yeah. Okay. I mean, they're all in their 20s, like early 20s or whatever.

I think Winton is, if I was 14, he was probably 23 or something. Oh, my gosh. Wow. And Stanford's like a year older than him. And Tain's around that age, too? Yeah. So, yeah, the personal element is. Kenny Kirkland is a little bit older.

He was a little bit old. He's a little young 30 or whatever he was. So the personnel is ridiculous. It's Wittn-Marcellus on the trumpet. Brant-Marcellus on the tenor saxophone and soprano saxophone. Kenny Kirkland on the piano. Yes. Sharnett Moffat on the double bass is what it's listed as.

Jeff Tane Watts on the drums. And then Ron Carter on the bass on Oral Oasis. Super interesting that he was brought in on that particular track. Yeah. But I think if we listen to that, it'll be a little bit. And these were all Witten's competition. Positions besides chambers of Tane? Is that right?

I think everything is. Who's Chambers by Tane? I think that's Kenny Kirkland. Oh, is that? Okay. Right. That's right. Exactly.

And then there's this kind of weird last track, which we may or may not listen to, blues, which is a blues. But anyway, I don't know. We'll see if we get to that. Because I've always felt like that's the one thing that doesn't fit on this record.

I don't know if it was put on for time or maybe for a CD. This was right around the time. time and did I get this on LP or CD? I can't remember. I think I got it on CD. I think that that was put on to flesh it out to be long enough for a CD and make, because that was when CDs came out, part of the thing was that they could go up to like 63 minutes. They were doing that back then. They were really flexing on that. Yeah. And what is this? 51 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. That probably wanted to get it over the threshold. But it's just, it's fine. It's just a duo with Winton and Charinette playing a blues, playing a little bit of blues for a couple minutes. But should be. get right, oh, we are rating this album. Wow, why do I bang it that hard? So, yeah, so we have our, this is again our list

that's been approved by MIT and by engineers at Red Bull Racing. And it's been run by our attorneys in South Louisiana, DeBosier and DeVosier and DeVosier. Yeah, so they've all, all three of those institutions have had a hand in making this rating system. There are 10 categories, and each one is worth 10 points.

We have categories for vibe, playing, compositions, sound, sequence, cover art, title, lore, stank, phasometer. And is it better than kind of blue? Now, these categories may seem a little bit random and incongruent and unequal. And you may be right, but they are our 10 categories and they get 10 points each. So there you go. What's been astonishing. What's been astonishing, Peter, as we've been doing the series, is how after we are done with these,

let's face it, BS categories that we came up with. Hey, yeah, hey, hey. But this was not like a super well thought out thing. But I have felt like all of my total scores at the end of listening to records are actually like pretty accurate reflections on my feelings about the album. I'm amazed, actually.

So it is a little bit of a litmus test of how we feel. Right. And a quick caveat, as we're developing this series, what makes this album great to us, I think, is the way we would put this. And I think isn't that what you mean by saying that the final score is how you feel about the record? Not what you think qualitatively

or how it ranks in sort of the pantheon of great jazz albums, but just kind of where it hits you. In other words, a lower score, the way I look at it is if it comes out to a lower score and I'm like, yeah, it's not something I put on a lot to list. I don't dislike the record or think it's low quality. It may be an amazing record,

but it doesn't have that resonance, maybe, like a 96 or 97 or 98. And usually it's for those of those, are for like personal, sentimental, like songs in the key of life. We're biased. Yeah, it is because like we fell in love with that album when we were young. That's a great one anyway.

That's objectively great record. But yeah, it is, it is super subjective, except for my scores, which are, I think, pretty much spot on. Right. To reality. Well, they're all spot on. It's just a matter of where they come from.

So let's get into it. But actually, let's take a look at the album cover. We used to do that later, but this might be fun to frame. Hey, what a great cover. I got some trivia and lore on that record. Man, remember those dead. Desks? Yes.

Man, I used to drive people crazy banging on those desks. The bottom, the bottom of the desk would resonate like a drum. Right, because it was one continuous piece of iron or steel or whatever. That was crazy. Aluminium. And then it would have a little slot at the top of it where your pencil would go. And those big bolts underneath that that wooden thing with a bunch of gums shoved up under there. Yeah, and you would totally wreck your knee as you were getting it out of it.

Yeah, totally. Right. Okay. Should I leave it up or no. Yeah, leave it up. Okay, we'll get a big cover. So what is... Look at that. Compact disc in the lower right.

That's right. They really wanted you to know. Yeah, I think this was right around the time compact discs were coming out, so that would make sense with that. Okay, we're going to listen from the beginning to Black Codes, which is the first composition.

I mean already. First few seconds. It's making a statement. Little Kenny Kirkland clusters there. This is a very digital sound. Check this out. Sorry, I have to stop that and play that again. Do you hear the precision

that went in Bramford or executing. There might have been some editing because this album is heavily edited. I do know that. I don't know that, but I'm pretty sure about that. But regardless, like that's some beautiful playing. Check out this, right?

Frazing. Good. Gravy. That's as good as it gets, man. That's pretty good, right? Jeez. Great segue. But this way that Tane is playing, this became so influential.

To this day. And, you know, he's got the Tony influence and maybe to a lesser degree elvin but it's very much influenced by how Kenny Kirkland's comping like Jeff Watts has such big ears and the way that they build up the tension just rolling I can just see Jeff Watts Kenny Kirkland the man wouldn't sound the reverb on the tops and stuff not broken but so much of that that Frigian sound because it keeps coming around to that the form gives that a lot of rage a lot of dynamic range on this

That's a great solo. That's a great solo from Winton. Yeah. Boobie. Here, Bray. Granford on the Soprento. That bass sound. Brantford's, I think, a little more exploratory adventures than Winton in terms of, like, his approach to soloing at this point, which is interesting.

It is different, you know. Can't hear a word you're saying, Peter. Oh, sorry. I'm locked in. I'm sorry. My bad. I'll shut up. No, no, no.

Yeah, just the interplay between Bramford and Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Watts. Yeah. It's just as good as it gets. Yeah, I think, I mean, Winton's solo is amazing, but Bramford's a little, like, from the very beginning of his solo, he's interacting. Like, he's picking up his whole first phrase is coming out of what Kenny Kirkland is doing. It just turns it into this hurricane of ideas. Yeah. This is interesting when they go to the walking here.

And then here, very Kennyish. You know how they sell? things in Instagram ads for your jaws, you like chew on this thing to flex your face muscles. They should just sell this album. The whole time I'm like... Right, right.

Yeah, the snake's like a face meter. A little bit of foreshadowing for them. That's like the patent and Kenny stuff. What he just played? That's something Brad Meldow would play late 90s. Interesting. Are you saying Kenny Kirkland was checking out

early Brad Meldon? Nope. I wonder if that's a direct influence. though, you know? This stuff can't tame and candy do? The ending. And the conductor's like, quite a bit of hats on the end though.

I mean, it's a lot. It is a maximalist piece of art, that opening track. It is. There is so much going on. It works for it. It's chaotic. It's beautiful.

It's energetic. It's got this like youthfulness to it for sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. The playing is a, It's just all of it, man. Dang. Yeah, it's a very, to me, it's like a combination.

It's coming in hot, obviously. It's hitting you over the head. It's like, we're here. We're coming at you. But then there's like the empathy of the way they play together, especially Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Watts. I mean, Charinette, everybody, Bramford, Witton. But like, there's certain ways that they're linked up that's so human

that it kind of tempers. the hotness of it in a lot of ways, and there's like little tender things that are happening. So it's definitely something, I mean, I used to listen to this record nonstop, so I know a lot of the nuances and stuff. And it's the kind of thing that is different, the more you listen to it,

because you get inside of these specific things, the first impression on it, in terms of starting out the record, can be a lot, you know. And it's kind of, you know, I think all these records, that's what's been fun for me, and I think, well, probably there's different ways to look at it when we get to sequence.

but the first song and the last song, especially on an album, like on any jazz album, but something that potentially you could be rewarded for listening to from beginning to the end, I think are the most important, you know?

So how this comes in, it just depends on your, I mean, to some people, it's like, oh, yuck, jazz, I don't know. I think for album sequence, you know, having grown up, we both grew up in like the album era, like there needs to be a flow

between the first song, really the first and second song, set it up, right? Those are the set-up songs, both of them, together. It's like the pair of the first two, those are what introduce you

to the tone of the record, usually. This is not every case. And that's what's going to decide if you're going to keep listening. Let's be honest. And it's usually tracks three through five or even sometimes three through six that I feel like are like the soul of a record.

Like those are the soul of an album. Those are usually where in the old days you would put like your killer tracks. Right. That's where like the real like hits would be sometimes, if not the first track. And then when you, sort of like come out of those three through five.

Yeah. Let's say you have in this case seven tracks. You know, the six, seven, eight spots and maybe that last spot are, I think, ways to like, usually to me, especially if I'm sequencing my own album, those are ways to like, how do I want to leave the listener from this experience? Like where do I want to leave them? Right. And that includes like the last track and the second to the last track, I think, like setting

them up to leave the room essentially. Right. Exactly. And I would almost consider this a, no, a six-track album. And we'll talk about that a little more when we do listen to the last track, at least a little bit of because I really feel like that's out of place, like the last track, whatever. But let's listen to a little bit of the second track, because this is a very unique thing. I mean, we talk about coming in hot and just the density, the amount of music and improvisation and going back and forth and so many crazy things happening on that first track. and you're mentioning the first and the second being so important, this decision of the direction, you know, in terms of pacing and texture is very interesting. This is for we folks.

Beautiful. Starting ribotto, real pretty chords, and they go into this very simple, beautiful groove. So I just want to make note of one thing. Sorry, go listen to this record, you guys, without our useless drivel and get in the way. But this is almost like so smooth. I think there was some interesting decisions

with the arrangement. When they're going down, they're playing in unison, but then I don't know if Winton wrote it like this or Bramford just grabbed this for the harmony. They're putting a little bit of like crunchiness in there some minor seconds and stuff. To me it's almost like wanting it to not be too smooth.

You know what I mean? And everything is so beautiful at the beginning and like the way they play together, when they play in unison or even in octaves, it's almost, you can almost not tell. that it sounds like one instrument. And so I think that it's a really crafty thing to do in terms of the arrangement of the composition.

Even when they're playing those major seconds, you know, what would they go? Unison. Mmm, a little crunch. And their intonation is so good. But the way Bramford harmonizes is brilliant. Certainly influenced by Miles Davis and Wayne shorter the way they would do some things.

But this is just so pretty and like smooth, right? The harmonium, you, patient. Patient. Check out Kenny. And then Brantford. It's really all the soul, like, Winn and Brantford, amazing. But for me, what really puts this over the top

is that relationship between the piano and the drums. Yeah. Like, their vibe together, Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Watts is like, that's all-time great pairing. Yes. And it's not like, you know, piano and drums always has like a special relationship

when we play together. But, I mean, this might be the best, one-two punch. It's fantastic. And music. Yeah. And there's so much, like, it's very busy. And the drums are very, like the center.

But it works so well. Yeah. To be that busy behind when you're comping, you have to be dialed in on that conversation. Yeah, for sure. Which they are. And Winton, and especially Bradford, so well of responding off that.

Winton, too. I mean, Wynne's kind of floating above it with just these beautiful stuff. I think we have a really good Kenny Kirkland solo here, too. Did you ever meet Kenny Kirkland? Mm-hmm. Did you ever talk to him?

Kenny Kirkwood? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Starting that upper register. Man, he's such a great, you can hear the influence of McCoy, you can hear the influence of Kirby on his playing, but he's done his own. Yes. It's his own work on that.

Yeah. You know, there's probably some other people in there that I'm not hearing, too, but. Yeah. Our direct influences on it. But this kind of approach was really influenced on Jeff Watts. Like that kind of rhythmic displacement. That kind of those triplets, maybe what did they do.

I mean, you can feel it. It's a nice drill there. And a master of going between those 16-note double-time lines and the triplet displacement stuff. Move there, a little moo? Yeah, any young player that wants to get a handle on like the basis of modern phrasing, I think you could start here.

Yeah. You'd really start with Kenny on Black Coats of Man again. Should we, man, the way they play that together, I mean, it's a lot of verb on it a lot of like audio affectation in the digital age, but it's so good. Let's talk scores here. So playing for this, I've got a 10 for playing. I think everybody's playing their asses off on this.

I think it's as good as it gets playing-wise. Interesting. For soloing and for comping. And really, it's like I said, put over the top by Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Watts. But Winton and Branford, their sound, their ideas, you know, like you mentioned, Brantford's interaction. but Winton's like lead on the phrasing, I love this style of Winton.

And I know that's controversial. No, not at all. But I like this Winton. I think a lot of people. And I don't know, you know, he doesn't really do a lot of this kind of stuff anymore. But right. A little bit, but like this is so good.

Interesting. So I have, I have not, I was back. Look how many times. I know. Look at that. I do not have 10 for sure. I have 10. And I'm waffling between.

nine or eight. And even though I think I love this playing as much as you, I mean, Kenny Kirkland pushes it over the edge to me. Although I wouldn't say this is the best. This is probably at the highest level, but it's not above other Kenny Kirkland's. He wasn't heavily recorded.

I know. That's an interesting thing. It's a shame. This is one of his most, like, where you get to hear a lot, one of the most of him. Right. But I think like his playing on the Hot House Flowers,

which was, I believe the next record or two records out of it, is as good, if not better. I can't even say better. It's just personal preference. I mean, this is a high, it doesn't get any better than this for him, but there's a bunch of records. Songbook, which is a little bit later into the 90s with the Kenny Garrett. I think Kenny Kirkland's playing on there might have hit a certain level.

You got to do songbook at some point. Yeah. Might have even hit that next level. So that's why it's weird. I think I'm going to go eight, oddly enough, on this. Because I think that Winton, I love his playing on here, but a couple years after this, he was still playing this. I mean, he's always been playing, I think, this style.

One thing about Winton is like, you can hear. It's him. He's always been him. But I feel like he progressed, not like technically he's always been off the charts. I mean, off the charts. I mean, you ask any classical or jazz or concert band trumpet player, like he's the one they bow down to. Yeah, of course. In a way that I don't even know, I don't even know what you would compare him to him for pianists with that.

I mean, it's hard, like, because he's so well-loved and respected. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe chick. I mean, yeah, I mean, but Keith's more than Herbie or chick, I don't know. I don't know. But, like, Whitney kind of has this place on the Mount Rushmore that, um, that. Clifford Brown is the only other one that you hear people talk about.

But having said that, I do think that his playing progress more. Bramford's did too, but Bramford's already, you know, playing amazingly. And then that blues at the end to me not, I already know what's coming. I'm not a fan of that tune. Even back then I wasn't. So like that, if we're going to be honest, that's got to knock it down a little bit, doesn't it? I can't ignore that track. I mean, you want to, we should call Wynton, tell him.

I think I did tell him that. You tell him, you're playing is an eight on this, no, no, his play is that. I'm saying when you take the totality of that, if we stopped it right there, B plus, might as well be an F. Peter Martin, 2023.

That's Kelly Martin. Okay, so why don't we, do we want to go on to like the next ones or we want to listen a little more? Well, let's go a couple more categories here. So vibe, I've got an eight for vibe. I've got an eight for vibe. Yeah, it's a great vibe.

And the vibe is very clear. Just those first two compositions, they, they, you get a great sense of artistically what's happening here. Yeah. I, to be honest, I could have easily gone 10 on vibe. I could have gone 10 on everything. But what I'm trying to do is be a little bit objective.

Like, because I want to separate the 14-year-old that first heard this. When you are at that impactful, when the album is so personally impactful to you and you listen to it so much at that time, you've got to step back at a certain point and like just think about it as a recording, not just what it did to you personally. You know what I mean? It's kind of like if you're part of a record and you make a couple million dollars off it because you wrote a song on it. It's going to be the greatest ever, right?

Because of what it did to your bank account. So this album is like, for impact on Peter Martin, is 100 out of 100. I can already tell you. But in terms of what makes this album great, I'm trying to be a little more. So I may be going a little low on this. Okay. Because I love the vibe. And then compositions, I have an eight.

I have an eight too. Okay. I think that's fair. Cool. Let's go on to the next track. What do we got? Okay. Delphio's dilemma. All right.

So these next two tunes, and maybe we'll just listen to a little, I don't know if we're going to listen to the whole thing. Let's listen to the next two tunes and see where we are. Oh, another reason. Because the next two tunes are great tunes. Another reason I went down just a little bit on the playing is I feel like those first two tracks, and this might have been because they're trying to flesh it out and make them long.

The solos are a little long. Solos are a little long. You know what I mean? And not because the playing wasn't great in them, but like they went on longer than they needed to. You've convinced me. I always have to go down one. No, no.

I don't love giving tens anyway because it's like if everything's a 10, nothing's a 10. No, but if I listen to this record and don't say that's a 10, that's a little weird too. I'm going nine, which is just. Which is still more than you because I like this record more than you. But, okay.

Let's listen to Delphio's Dilemma. Name four. Phryzian Man? Phryzian Man, yeah. That might be my favorite track on it. Phryznihanian Man. And I would just say that it's track three or four, Delphithe's Delim of Frizzanian man. I also feel I could have gone as the first tracks.

Oh, you getting a little tired? You're tired of me talking, buddy? Got a little yawning in the house. Look at that. Let's go close up. This has been a lot. You know what? It's been a lot of podcasts.

I'm drinking caffeine. You're drinking something. less than than Natalie over there. Red tea. Oh, sorry. The decaffeinated red tea. All right, we're going to listen

to a little Delphield's Delim. Oh. Produce O'Kal's ever playing drums to this. Yeah. That fill that Jeff watches too. Dude. Study that, drummers. Come on now.

Fun fact, there's a 3-4 bar, I believe, in this tune. Oh, right there. I mean, this is a classic win. Man. So good. Playing simple stuff, swinging, floating. Kill and tone. Command.

Check out, Kenny's copy here. Is that it? For musicians. The listener doesn't... The GP doesn't care about that. The front foot, too, at the job. Is it trying to him off at 16? Something like that.

16 or 17. This is another soul. This is going on a little long. As good as it is. It's great stuff, though. Come on. That's a good soul. That's an a...

But couldn't it have frontcated? No, it's perfect. Perfect? Perfect. Oh, really? Oh, perfect score. That's how what Bradf plays here. Didn't bother him though.

Okay, edit. I'm not a fan of that. Do you hear that edit? Yeah, it was a big edit. Yeah. How are you liking this though? Dude. Sorry, did I...

This is so good. Yeah. I took it back. And Kenny's playing is so... So stylized, right? Man, don't you have a video on this solo? Not this one, but yeah. Yeah, I thought it was good.

A couple of the solo. Maybe. How do you feel about that three, four bar? I used to think it was cool. It's a little jarring, right? Yeah? No. Thumbs up, thumbs on.

I don't think it needs it, right? But there was a lot of insider stuff on this. So, Peter, what do you have for sound on this one? So I have an eight. I also have an eight. And I could easily go seven even. Yeah, I almost had seven. But this is another one that, like, I loved the sound so much when it came out.

Yeah. And it's so, I mean, it defined this era. Imagine if this was really. recorded this album, music as it is recorded in like 1966 or 5 or something like that, right around the Miles Never TV era. We would consider that a better, more analog, warmer sound. But you got to remember

the time. I think it would be a, it would be considered more of a classic album if it were in that era. Interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the thing was like that was, this was just like the clothes, like the fashion of the sound. Yeah, this was the fashion of the sound. Yeah, and with CDs there was such a push for, I mean, this was a digital, I'm sure this was digitally recorded. It's not bad at all. No, no. It's really good. Early Digital was

like, I can't remember if the bit rate was lower or whatever, it was cleaner than they had intended. Like, there was such a push towards clarity and cleanliness, and there was certain things with dynamic range and just the warmness of the sound. They thought they were getting better, closer than with analog, which in turn, which, in fact, that they probably weren't. I might be speaking out of mind.

They, obviously, this was digitally released on CD. It could have been still recorded analog. Because I remember recording some records in the early 90s still on analog, but then, of course, it never went to an album. So I don't know what I'm talking about, but I can say that, like, the sound on this and hearing it now, there's a few unnatural things that I'm not crazy about. I think the piano sound

is great, but I love Kenny Kirkland, assume me. So, like, almost anything. The piano's great. It's really well recorded. I think the drums, they're a little bit separate from the rhythm section that's so out front, it's so wide. Agreed. But which is great, of course, who doesn't want to hear everything that Jeff Watts is playing, but it's, you know, and the Tom's, like there's separate,

it almost sounds like separate reverb on the different parts of the drums, which is cool, but it gives it a little bit of an unnatural sound, but again, that was the fashion of the time. Winton's, I mean, Winton's sound is just perfect like his tone is, but maybe a little more grit or, I don't know, something, but it's really good. I mean, I'm giving an eight.

I don't, I'm not crazy about the, like, there's, there's, with the edits and stuff, there's this going after a certain cleanness with everything. Dib-de-d-d-d-d-be, like you can hear a perfection in that, which is exciting and exhilarating. But Bramford and Winton could play out of that stuff pretty much perfectly together anyway. So I don't know.

Maybe they did. Maybe actually this is all done in one take, but it doesn't sound like it sometimes. And I think that's on the sound, not the players. Bramford or Winton, hit us up, let us know. Right. What about the sequence, Peter? We got a, I have a seven.

Yeah, I have an eight because, well, tell me why you have a seven. Well, I have a seven because I feel like, I feel like I could come up with a better sequence. for these tracks. I love these tracks. But yeah, I feel like... Like just rearranging them. I could rearrange it for a better experience. Yeah, I think that the next track,

either Delphidiv and Frisina Man, I would put first, actually. But having said that, what a wonderful bombastic and beautiful entrance black curse was. For sure. And in fact, I really like the sequence, but I'm so used to it. Everything except for the last thing. That's why I took off two points on the sequence.

I might have even gone 10 or 9, but because of the blues at the end that I'm not a fan of. And then cover art. I have a nine for the cover art. I have a 10 on this, actually. It's a really good. Let's check that out again.

It's so good. That is Jason Marsalis. Oh, no way. Yeah, a young Jason. Jason's like 45-year-old dude or whatever he is now, which is fun to see, think about that. And that was at the New Orleans Center for the Creative Arts Uptown, I believe, on Perry Street in New Orleans, where went in Brantford. And I think Jason did in Delphil, many of them. And where Ellis Marcellus taught, that was the United States.

That was the original Noka. Now it's in Bywater on the other side of time, but that was the original building. The old Lusher Elementary School building, I believe, where they did that photo shoot. So that's all authentic. That's not recreated any. It sounds.

Yeah, it's an incredible cover. Incredible composition. Beautiful, like, color palette, the use of the negative space. The only, yeah, there's, it's great. It's great. And the title, what do you have for that? Because there's a whole story behind this.

I've got a nine for the title as well. Okay. I've got a 10. You know what? I could have gone. I could have gone. for the title, but I gave it a nine. I think I'm going to go nine, too.

That makes sense. I mean, it's a great title. Again, how do you separate it from the sound, from the album, from what it is? It's great. It's an intriguing title. That's a cool thing about it. For sure. The lore.

I have eight because I don't really know much about the lore, you know? So some of the lore is like I just sort of talked about on the album. I put a nine because it's so important to me this album. I know. The only reason I put it even so high with eight, because I don't, really know the history of the recording or anything is just the impact that it's had on a lot of great players that i know yeah it was kind of a cultural phenomenon because this record came out i think it got two or three grammies i think went and won some grammies before maybe it was

in line with this when he got the classical grammy this year this year where he won a classical grammy and a jazz grammy at the same at the same time amazing um which i don't think it had ever been done and it was legit i mean i'm sure there was other there were other great jazz records during that time but his recording the Haydn and Humboldt trumpet concertos, which is on CBS, Columbia as well, with Raymond Lepard and the, I think it was the English Chamber Orchestra or something, was like a lot of classical aficionados say that,

like, that's the gold standard for, you know, the Hayden trumpet concert, which is kind of the best trumpet classical piece or it's the one that they rally around. So the fact that he did that, and I might be out of order because that might have been the record before this that he did think of one.

But this one, Grammys too. So like it was a time when like, and he played on the Grammys like classical and jazz in the main broadcast for like 10 minutes. So like it was a it was a whole thing. So this record really had an impact. I think it's had such a big impact of musicians of around this time. You talk about your Kenny Garrets and stuff. Does Kenny Garrett make songbook if there hadn't been a black codes from the underground? I mean, you can say that about a hundred albums after this.

Yeah. So that's why I push the lore up. I agree with that. I don't know that there's anything crazy about the record session or anything like that, but sometimes it's that impact afterwards. And then stank face a meter, I've got a 10 out of 10. This is just my face can't not stank up. Yeah.

You know what I mean? I've got a 9 because my face stops stanking up on the last track. Oh, okay. But yeah, no, I mean, stank face a meter 9. I still consider that very high. And, yeah. I mean, this is an amazing record. listen to just a little more,

we're not going to listen to the track, the last track, because I'm not a hater, and I feel bad now for even saying it. Can we just maybe listen to Chambers Attain? We could do that. Yeah, let's do that. You know what? We're going to listen to a little bit, because I might get turned around on somebody. We're going to listen to a little bit of the blues, because I want to see what you think of this. Char and out of Melfth, sounds

great. Now, why do you object to this? You don't like the blues? You don't like bass. You don't like bass. I love the blues. I love bass. You don't love trumpet. I don't like where it's placed on the record and it has nothing to do with the record. You felt like you could do this better?

Is that why you don't like it? No, but... And this is not like great, went and playing like you'd had on the rest of the record. I mean, yeah, technically it's great. Okay. It's a Miles phrase. You're not stank-faced like you did on the other songs.

I gave it a little snake face. I said, this just let you know. Okay, it's great playing. I didn't say it wasn't great playing. To me, it's about the... What are we're looking around for? Let's just listen to the little chambers of ten. I felt like it should have ended at this.

This is what I mean. If this had been the beginning of a new record, doing some duos or leading to something, maybe. But it's about the placement. It doesn't make any sense. Of course it makes sense. I mean, they're playing great. This is ushering in a whole era of playing in a certain way. That's so good.

You see what I'm saying? I get you. And then check it out. So you're coming to here. This is the end of the record. Okay, incredible Jeff Watts solo at the end. Like this was an influential solo. you get that reverb on the top but now just let me let me play devil's advocate keep it going okay

it's gonna go right in credit start rolling you know what i mean and everybody leaves the theater yeah that doesn't what do we talk about with sequencing before we're talking about you know keep it going here's a great way for us to go out too no no no as far as like this is what you want your audience to leave with this is sort of like your closing statement on the album i here's i get some flack sometimes for my own programming when I'm... Yeah. I like to end with on the downside. Like, I like a downer of an ending.

I like a ballad as an ender. Yeah. I'm not saying you can't do that. Not everybody likes it. In fact, most people prefer what you were just saying. But I get it. But that could have been one of the other... To me, it's not even...

It's not that it's ending down. It's just that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the program. But that's also because this is a very high-level artistic statement, I think. And, you know, even the slightest kind of thing is going to be like... Like if it's just an average record, you can kind of get away with a lot of different things. So it's not, look, it's not as big of a deal as I'm making this. You've got me cornered. You've got me in the corner.

Hold on. I just want to write a note. PM doesn't like a blues. Okay. Good to know. I love the blues. Winton is playing incredibly on this, sir. Okay.

Okay. Let's add up. Hold on. Is it better than KOB? Oh. I have an eight. What is KLB? A nine.

I think it's a tier. For sure, A tier. Is that what eight is? I'm not sure if it's S tier. It might be S tier. What, what? Oh my God. Okay, I'm gonna go eight.

I'm, I mean, I don't know that it's that close to KOP, but it's damn good. I mean, there's a lot of great things happen, so I'm going eight. Pretty close. Should you add up? Let's add up. Okay. Okay, I'll go first. Okay.

My score? Yes. Is an 84. Favorite track is Chambers of Tame. Nice. Yeah. My score is in 85. We're right in there.

Favorite track, Frisinian Man. I love it, Peter. I think we're, again, once again, our foolproof system has come through. Yeah, I think so. Many, many, many people, scores of people are going to disagree with us. If you disagree with us, please put it in the comments.

Yeah, drop with your scores. We're idiots. No, it's not to be about that. If you, if your name, last name happens to be Marcellus, we will wait your comments a lot heavier. That's right. We'll keep that for another day. The lengthy conversation I actually had with Winton about 20 years ago,

specifically about this record and his feelings. So I didn't even want to bring that up because we had a very heated discussion about this record. Really? Yes. But I didn't want that to cloud my judgment. I want it just to be my opinion of this record. And I kind of feel weird about that score in a way because this is, I don't know why it's not in the 90s. I just tried to react.

I love this record. It was super limited. Maybe I overreacted a little. I mean, I underscore, over-counter, undercompensated, over-compensated, or something like that. I could just say that this is a fantastic record, and if any of this stuff resonate with you,

what's really exciting is maybe some of you have never heard this record. I know. And to be able to go and dig into this, I think you'll be delighted. This could definitely be one that people are discovering. Yeah, yeah.

And, I mean, some points probably should be given it or there should be understanding. Whenever you come up with the record at sort of a pivotal time in the industries, the technology of the industry, so this was at the beginning of digital record. Right? Compact discs. Like you talk about when the first records went from short playing, what were they, 33s?

I mean, 78s to 33s, where the track length could be longer. Like that affects the music and stuff. And there's always a little bit of an awkward transition there where you might get things like, oh, the track needs to be a little longer. We need to add something. Who knows? And then there's the Pro Tools Revolution that happened. Right.

All these things have, and that's why we try to... Around this time, but really ubiquitously through the 90s. Exactly. So, but I mean, one thing is it definitely stands the test of time. It's an exhilarating record. The playing, I mean, Kenny Kirkland, everybody. It's just, it's really a cool record. I love it, Peter.

Yeah, man. This is a great series. Well, next time we got to do, maybe we hit something from the 90s next time or maybe, I don't know. Is there a decade? We haven't hit? Have we hit the 70s? Should we hit the 2020s? I can think of some things.

Okay. Until next time. You'll hear it. Two, three, four, one, two, three, four.