You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What Age Defines A Jazz "Master"

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

Peter and Adam get a chance to check out an episode of Emmet's place that featured Dan Wilson on guitar. Check out Emmet's YouTube right here for more content like this. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Okay. Hey, Adam. Yeah. Okay. I got you. Okay. You know, they're always saying jazz is dead. Who's they?

Jazz police. Okay. You know, it's not. We're going to talk about passing the torch, not even passing the torch, the torch bearers. I love it. Yeah. You ready? I'm ready.

Let's do it. I'm Adam Annis. And you're listening to the Yule here at podcast. Music advice coming at you. Coming at you. This is an open studio podcast. You know you might go to openstudiojazz.com for a deeper dive on, I don't know, Did that?

Kind of sketchy. If you want to go, kind of deeper dive. There's a gentleman with an orange suit on. There's something going on here, actually. Yeah, there's a lot of action going on. There's a gentleman with an orange suit that is so spectacular. I hope he walks down the street. And he has an orange vest on.

Only in St. Louis. Only in St. Louis. Just for our viewer's pleasure. That's right. Right. So if he does come down, I'm going to point him out because he's extraordinary. He puts our vontamance to shame, I would say. You know what I'm saying.

So today we are, we're going to look. listen to some music. We're going to watch a video. So we're going to listen to two, well, really four great musicians, but the two featured soloists here. We're both just at Open Studio, one virtual and one in person, this past week. That is the great guitarist Dan Wilson, who just recorded his very first Open Studio course for us, I hope not his last. No. And the amazing Emmett Cohen, who just performed a master class for our Open Studio members. Yep. And we would love to have a chorus eventually from... It's coming.

Is it coming? Okay. We are in deep discussions. So we were just in awe of both of these young masters. Right. And are they young still? Well, what's the cutoff for young? We could do a whole episode on that.

We should talk about that. It used to be 30. They're both, I think, north of 30 at this point. But still, we'll call them youngish. Youngish. Younger than us. Yeah. Younger than us masters.

And we know that there's a live at Emmett's place for about everybody these days. Do you know for most athletic endeavors, particularly ones that one might do recreational recreationally for a long time, the cutoff for the master's division. You know what age of that starts at? What? Well, I'm, no, I'm saying guess. 40?

Yeah, 40. That's weird to me, though. Yeah. Right? It should be 50. I mean, I'm 44. Yeah. And there definitely aren't very many professional athletes my age anymore.

And I just remember it, like, you know, remember that progression where it's like, like you're younger than them, then you're the same age? Remember when you're really young and you see the, first professional athlete that's your age, you're like, oh, my gosh, this person is in the Olympics doing gymnastics and they're my age. They're three. And then you remember when you're in your 20s and you're like, oh, all these people, oh, there's like an 18 year old kid in the MLB or in the NBA or whatever. That's got to be weird. And then you get in your 30s and you're like, oh, look at this guy hanging around at 35. And then you're in your 40s and you're like, Fernando Alonzo is still

here. Fernando Alonzo is still racing at 42? This is unbelievable. Tom Brady, you know, and then now you're 44 and you're like, not too many people. And then you gravistate state towards sports where there might be said, oh, there's a bunch of golfers in their 40s, even a couple in their 50s still playing. But this interesting thing, what would you consider the master's age starts for jazz musicians, for great players? It's a great question. I actually think, I think for artists, there is a spectrum for sure that is much wider

than most as it would be. You know, our bodies are very fragile, and athletes are pushing their bodies to a very, to the edge, right, at all times. musicians are definitely pushing our bodies for sure not to the same kind of edge so I do think there is a physical element however there is also artistic development which I do not think dwindles until you're

I mean I've heard people octogenarians who make amazing art I'm sorry I was we're not on the same page my friend normally we are I meant the other way I'm saying like what age do you have to be normally to be considered a master player I'm assuming that once you hit it you have the potential if you want to

to Herbie Hancock it and do it for the rest of your life to wane shorter it to sunny rollins it when we did our OGs rat to IGs for Jacob Collier I kind of mention this right there's no doubt that he is 100% an amazing brilliant musician as he is

now yeah I can't wait to hear him at 40 I can't wait to hear him like live a little more life to get and he's he's very wise but it could happen before that right is there anything could yeah but I still think I want to hear, it's like with filmmakers too, or even to a certain extent actors, even though I think there can be brilliant actors in their 20s or whatever, just if you're trying to convey

emotion, you just have to live a certain amount of experience. I think practicing living is part of the artistic journey. So I do think, I don't think there's any whatever. I don't think it's personal for everybody. But in my experience, for artists, it is, I think, a minimum of late 20s before you can really have lived enough life as a grown-up to convey the full spectrum of your emotions. I don't think anybody conveys joy better than people in their late teens, early 20s. Right.

It's like the best punk music has to be almost from young people. You know what I mean? Yeah. The best energetic music. Even like the jazz that we listen to when we're young, if you think about it, it's all very, very, like, energetic. But what about like a Clifford Brown who, died at what age 25 I think

26 you know certainly a master right at least the way we view those recordings 100% I mean and even is that an outlier at that age I know I would even say like Jacob O'Conley but wouldn't it be great to hear we listened last week we listened to Freddie Hubbard yeah when he was a little bit older he wasn't that old he's probably our age but like it wouldn't be great to hear Clifford Brown in his 30s interesting just to hear how that developed I'm not not taking it away

let me see if I can get chat GPT to give us uh no no He was Clifford Brown if he was 40 years old. That's it with AI. We got some pushback all that. We got lots of pushback. We won't even talk about it. Okay, so we're going to watch this video, right?

Did we talk about it yet? This is an old school live at Emmett's place. Yeah, so this is cool. Emmett Cohen, who has been doing his long running Monday, still, yeah, Monday evening live stream since the beginning of the pandemic, early 2020, I believe. And then Dan Wilson. And so this is from, I don't know when, but let's just check this out.

Because these are like, to me, these are just like great young players that aren't worried about like, oh, I'm being too jazzy or too conservative, or I'm trying to be a torchbearer, or I'm trying to be on the cutting edge or whatever. These guys just swinging out, I think. I love it. But we'll be out already. What do you need? That's all you need. I'm sorry. Sumi, I feel good right now.

All right, so we did this with Monk, but just listen to Emmett's as a pianist, right? Listen to Emmett's call in response to the melody. everything is in response to the melody okay so like the rhythmic feel here obviously it's swinging is swing it feels good it's swing what i love is like there's an unabashed um like just sitting in what some could be considered like oh they're just this is like a throwback it's a nostalgic thing he's trying to play like grant green or west montgomery or swing or you can hear grant green and west Montgomery and is playing but yeah absolutely it's like yeah exactly like you can hear this but We talk about sound and connection and lineage,

but also doing your own thing. And I love that just their physical attitude towards playing the music is not like we're presenting ourselves in another place. It's like it's today and it's relevant and it makes sense. There's an intentionality behind it, not to connect with another era, but to connect with a certain sound.

That's right. You know, it's like you're holding on to something that's super, it's like the difference between going to see a symphony orchestra where they're all wearing powdered wigs, and acting like they're in Vienna in another time, and they're just dressed like today, and they're playing the music like it was just written.

You know what I mean? Yeah. No, it's very... Because there's nothing like, like, splaining jazz music without a great classical music reference, which I hate. No, you know what I hear is, yeah, I hear a ton of references from everybody, you know,

of what their influences are, but mostly it's just a joyful sound that they're making. A lot of joy in this swing. We were feeling down. We were feeling down because... I feel so much better. already. Let's keep going. Russell Hall, big shout out.

Yeah, Russell Hall's amazing. You know what? Just one thing on the... Isn't I remember the dominant seventh on a major seventh core? You can do it like that with that intentionality. Just a note on the trio of Kyle Poole, Russell Hall, and Emmett Cohen. Just a note for all four of these musicians, how relaxed is Kyle Poole and Russell Hall when they're playing? I mean, it's like, it's for all the young players out there or even young at heart players

who want to achieve a certain feel or sound, notice the intensity, but the complete relaxation that this rhythm section has. Yeah. And you know, it's like some great things are happening here. You can kind of look at this as like,

Dan is playing relatively busy. Well, I wouldn't say busy. He's playing almost continuously his solo style on this. And Emmett is comping a lot. But there's, and you know, there's always this guitar. and piano issue or whatever, but like there's no issues there.

Like it's all fit together so well. Yeah, they're listening, but it's not that kind of scared playing where it's like, let me get out of your way. It's like, you know, it's some busy stuff

because the music kind of, you know, I think Kyle Poole is really setting the tone great with a very nuanced, just like swinging. Not really stayed out of the way, getting involved some too,

but inappropriate, you know, level. Yeah, we were just talking about this the other day in open studio pro. Like, being an accompanist doesn't mean just being like this bed of support all the time and never stepping on,

never putting yourself in there. Actually, putting yourself into the situation is good accompanying. Yeah, this is not, he's not playing deferentially. Yeah. He's playing, he's very involved, and it's very, like, it's very conversational, but it's like, and it's so nuanced because it goes in and out of, like, what's needed. But it's not like, oh, I'm doing this for A-Bars and then something else. It's not selfish.

I know. It's like a good conversation. Selfless. Yeah. I mean, like, Emmett there was kind of risking getting obtrusive, but it works. You know what I mean? I mean, if you're going to borrow, borrow from the best. I know.

Do you know what it is? I think this is such a great example of what we were talking about in the last episode and came out of that great discussion with Bram from Marsalis is that for me, musical taste is about like the higher level of your musical taste and your attenuation to like what can work in a certain musical situation. My musical situation, I don't just mean like the room or like the instrumentation, but the audience, the time, the tune, the tempo, all these. things like Dan Wilson to me has such a great you know musical taste that he can take these different

things and go to what what others would make seem like a very obvious George Benson blues line going just straight rip that but because he's placing it at the right place and it works so well and it's so well executed that if you if you don't know what that is it sounds great if you do know it still sounds great but it's still his take on it it's his take on it and it's just a great kind of thing. So it's like the better you are as a musician, I think the more license you have to do what others, what for others could sound like kind of some standard sort of bastardization of some different players and just even certain like licks, it's like, oh, that's just, that's been done before. The better you are, the more you can play so-called basic stuff.

First of all, this stuff is not basic. But it can seem that way. So what you're saying is it's more how you play it than what you're playing. Exactly. Which is what Brandford was saying in that. Yeah, and this is stuff that we normally associate with old. I mean, not necessarily older, just more experience. Because when you're younger, you're afraid to play something that you don't want to sound like basic or like, oh, I stole this from somebody. Or I don't know anything else besides the blues scale. We've already established that these are young masters. Young, super young teenage masters.

Both these guys. Well, previously. Infant masters. Everybody's a kid. Yeah. Let's listen to a little more of Dan Wilson. Yeah. Okay, sorry.

I'm going to stop again here. So another just little visual cue you can tell that everybody knows what the hell they're doing on here is everybody's personality, or at least the way that they want to kind of present themselves naturally is coming out. Like not everybody's the same. Like Dan is just like totally sort of confident having a good time. Kyle like basically, if you didn't hear how good he sounds and how well he's interacting, it looks like he's totally disinterested in what's going on. just like his face and sort of the way, you know what I mean, he's very, like, stoic or whatever compared to, um, but that's just Kyle's vibe, it seems like, in general. That's what I'm saying.

The personality is coming out. Russell's very smooth. He's dancing with the base. But, I mean, the thing is like Kyle is not physically dancing as much, but his music is dancing right along, you know. And like Emmett is like a little bit more animated. Yeah. Dan is pretty much just like, you know. So that's when you're hitting that higher level when like everything comes out with what you're playing.

and you look natural to what you are, your personality physically comes out. What a dance say? I love the way to take that. Blues vocabulary is modern vocabulary. It's real, really feeling the continuity, you know,

the trajectory and continuity of what needed to happen here. All right. Okay, so Emmett's doing something very mature here, very interesting. He's bringing the tune back. He's bringing the tune back, and he's also like changing, like it's very easy after you come out of a super swinging,

like bluesy, like deep poppies. Get in there with it. Yeah, because it's so like, you know, but I think the moment kind of I mean, you and you could do that. It would have been fine too. But it's a very nuanced thing to be like, okay, I'm going to kind of and who knows, I mean, he might be starting to go into that. But it's such an interesting thing for the listener. And that's like putting the listener ahead of like what you want to do sometimes.

Whatever was just happening, I'm going to do kind of a different texture. Yeah. I'll had two different levels on those last that he broke it down. down in, which is two more than most drummers have. Dan Coppins great. From Dam, it's a similar kind of thing that Amos doing. It's fantastic playing, but where he's doing a fair amount of like what some could

consider it as like typical type stuff, but just executing so well. And then constructing it in a way that's not that typical actually. Yeah, he's playing on your expectations of these bits of vocabulary. Right, but it's never like, it never falls in that thing of like, oh, everyone's heard this soon, I've got to do something different. I've got to re-harm this. Like when he changes up the harmonies for a reason. That's right.

And it's usually in support of something that has some kind of rooted context in the history of the music. He's such a student of the history of the music and that comes through. And I think people are on various spectrums of that of like, well, should we push past that or should we look further back towards the roots of the music? He's a great balance, I think, especially like a great, for lack of a better word, popular balance. Yeah. And I think that it always takes all different kinds of players. Like there's going to be some pianists that. or any instrument.

It's not to say just pianists that are just going to have that vision and that personality and that singular kind of thing and they're connected in a little bit more esoteric way to the tradition, which is great. And then you're going to have the kind of players

like an Emmett or Dan, I think in their own ways with guitar and piano similar, where they're very closely identifiable with the tradition with specific things and ways that they play and their execution is so great and their virtuosity

and the balance in their playing comes in how they construct things and their individuality comes with that. I think that's all great stuff and it shows, I think this period, seeing Emmett's development by playing every Monday night and being able to kind of see some of that has been great because he's worked through a lot of those things. And then a lot of the musicians that were coming, they didn't let the pandemic and less than a lot of these stuff you can only do in a performance situation. I know at first when they were doing this, it was Tim because it's like, oh, in an apartment,

it's not really a gig. We're just sort of playing with the trio. But once it got to become a thing, they treated it. like we're going to get better by keep working at this, keep playing and developing as a trio. And then certainly I know I've talked to a lot of the guests. Well, I did. I play with them there in that room.

It's like you come into that, especially if you're playing with the trio, I think for them, it gives them a great bed to be able to come in and just play beautifully like Dan's doing here. Well, let's go out on the rest of Emmett Cohen's piano solo. This is, again, Emmett Cohen trio with Dan Wilson on guitar. If I should lose you.

Thanks, Peter. Russell Hall, Kyle Pool. Yeah, thank you, man. Until next time. You'll hear it.