You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What Do Pianists Want To Hear From Guitarists?

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

Peter and Adam deconstruct the myth that a pianist and guitarist will inevitably clash when they play together.* Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipe at https://link.youllhearit.com/speakpipe* Support the pod by spreading the word with the link openstudiojazz.link/yhi* Learn more about Open Studio Pro: openstudiojazz.com/proInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, Adam. It's the second episode of our brand new season, and we've already got an old school feature. Yes. Do you know what it is? Yes, I do. Should I say that now? I mean, if you know what it is...

Speak pipe in the house. I'm Adam Annas. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear a podcast. Music advice and inspiration. Coming at you. Coming at you today, sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJazz.com.

Yes, just yes. For all of your jazz lesson needs. You know, Peter, I just, I launched a new course this past week here. Yes. on Open Studio called the major scale course. You know what we study on the major scale course? What? The dominant scale.

No, it's all about major scales. Yeah. It's kind of the Barry Harris method of dealing with major scales, thirds, triads, approach notes, pivots. It's really, really hip. It's super exciting, super foundational, fundamental. But don't folks, do not feel like, oh, I know my major scales.

I don't need this course. No, this is a whole other thing. It's another way of looking at it, another way of practicing it, another way of incorporating it to your plane. And let me know what you think of it because we might do one on the dominant scale. We might do one on the Dorian scale or on the melodic miter.

There's a whole, obviously, a treasure trove of scales that we can work on like this. It's really fun. And the way that you walk folks through it, it's so good because it gives folks a chance to practice one concept in maybe a new way. Well, it is going to be a new way for most people. But to really focus on that, but going through you, I mean, you walk through every single key. I don't think you ever say in that course, like, oh, and then continue all to the next key. No, we like to. You actually go through, you actually hold the hand.

Yeah. So I'm like, you're kind of gilting people into taking it through all the keys. I like it. I'm like a seventh grade boy on a camp date. I like to hold hands. I like to hold your hand as you walk through the major scale of course. Wow. So again, go to Open StudioJJ.com and check that out.

So speaking of new features, well, not new. This is an old new feature. We haven't done this feature in a while. It's a speak pipe. This is a voice. 2019 called they want their speak pipe. Bar in Lovelace. So we have a voice.

message system. Go to you'll hear it.com and leave us your question. If you have a question about anything jazz related, improvisation related, music nerd related, piano related, you can leave us your message there. We have a speak pipe from Brian. Shall we check it out? Let's do it. From suburbs of Philadelphia. Hold on Brian. What's up, guys? This is Brian from the suburbs of Philadelphia. I'm a guitar player and my question is regarding comping with the piano. When I go out to the sessions, sometimes I get a dirty looks from the piano player. So I'm not sure if I'm really stepping on their toes or not, but perhaps you can talk about what you want to hear from a guitar player, which you definitely don't want to hear

from a guitar player, and just general advice. We'd really appreciate it. Love the show. And keep giving us the whole kit and capoodles. Right, Brian. Thanks so much for the question. Yeah, thank you, Brian. Relevant question. We've talked about it a little bit here on the show, but it's always good to talk about how to deal with not just guitars and pianos, but what do you do when there's more than one chordal instrument ever? I think there's a myth there that you can never play together and that's just not true. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's about, I mean, you don't want to, you don't want to predominantly sort of cop out and say, okay, I'm going to lay out when the piano player is comping because being a piano player, I can tell you, we'll never stop. You won't get

dirty looks, but you won't get any kind of complimentary looks either because we'll just kind of default to constantly comping. I think that's not the most interesting way to take advantage of playing in an ensemble because I really think I know and I've experienced a lot of joy in in playing with guitarists, piano and guitar together in a way that brings in a new element. So it's not about like, well, we just want to keep the status quo either the guitarist playing or the piano but never shall the two meet or anything like that. But having said that, we got to figure out some ways to play so that you're not getting dirty looks.

That's good that you're noticing that. But you want to think about there's kind of two different basic dirty looks going out on a jam session. There might just be the, they don't like the look of you bringing a guitar and they feel like, oh, I'm not going to get his chance to comp. So don't worry about those dirty looks. Yeah, that's just their problems. Yeah.

And also don't, you know, a lot of piano players, I think, and sometimes guitar players can be a little bit aggressive in terms of like, fuck. follow me or I think I'm better or whatever. Yeah. And what's interesting is the best players that I've encountered are always the actually the least aggressive. Like the ones that actually could be like follow me or whatever. Yeah.

Are the least aggressive. Well, they realize it's a conversation. It's a conversation. Yeah. And you would never just, you know, take, I mean, some nights you want to come and take, you know, hold chord in the room and just dominate the conversation. Yeah. But most nights, most people with a heart will want to share the stage.

And a soul. And they want to just get to know you through music. So yeah, never, I would suggest never going to a jam session with a chip on your shoulder of like, I'm going to run this stuff. No, no, what it's about at all. And if we can keep at the forefront of our minds and encourage others to and talk about two things. One is that this is about the entire performance. It's never about the piano and the guitar, unless it's a duet. It's about the entire ensemble.

So when you keep that foremost, like it's kind of like if you're on a football team, you know, And you're like, well, I'm on the special teams or I'm on the linebackers. Like, yeah, you might go practice with them. But when you get on the field, it's the whole team. It's what everybody is doing. Absolutely. It's going to get you to that promise land of that win. And so it's the same thing.

So don't get caught too much in this piano and guitars like we're so important. But you got to work these issues out. The other thing is this is everything we do, even at a jam session, it's not about us. It's about the audience. Yeah, especially when you're comping. Especially with your comping. You're a comforting. And I mean, but I think it's so.

easy to be like, oh, a jam session is my time. See, anytime you start using me, my, me words are bad. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's no I and team. There isn't me, but, you know, it's like, so we want to get a, like, and what I found is like once you start understanding this, it's really freeing because it takes a pressure off because, you know, a lot of times we think, oh, oh, the jam session, I want to try out these things. I want to play this tune. I want to, you know, and so you feel like you've got to have all these different things happening in order for it to be an edifying experience for you. But it's still about the audience.

It's just like any other gig. It is. So we have five things that we're going to talk about. I'm going to run through them here real quick. Number one is, of course, listen. Then we're going to talk about what we want to hear. Right. Well, that's what Brian's question was.

Yeah, then we're going to talk about what we don't want to hear. That's the other part of it. We're going to talk about how to use the whole instrument, whatever your instrument is to get the most out of comping with another chord instrument. Yep. And then we're going to talk about getting to know the other instrument and how important that can be.

And then at the end, we'll give you. you some example recording some suggested listening, Brian, so that you can maybe have some inspiration. Yep. So number one, listen. That's right. So this is to listen. There's two parts, well, at least two parts. But one is listen to everything that's happening on the stage and how you fit in and how the guitar and the piano are fitting in. Like that's a constant ongoing thing. And so you have to develop the ability to do that while you're playing. What happens is a lot of folks, they only can listen to themselves or listen to somebody else. And it's kind of like having a conversation with several people.

You're standing around like a huddle, like the football analogy. You're at a huddle. Could you imagine if the quarterback whoever's calling the plate? And like they're not listening at all. Yeah. And they're only talking to one person at a time. Like it's a collective thing. And so that's really important.

And you have to practice that. Jam sessions are actually great times to practice it. But if you don't go in with that kind of mindset, you're not actually going to develop at that. And if you're not paying attention to what the other cordial instrument is doing and to what is going on with the soloist, what's going on with the drummer, what's going on with the bassist as you're playing,

you're not doing it right. You have to hear yourself within the mix of everything. How do you fit into the entire context of the room? That is when you really can come up with some special things and where you really start to have, like I said, that conversation that we were talking about before. Yeah, and I would say the other part of listening is, and we'll hit this at the end,

is listen to other people live or recordings doing this because you can listen to us, blabber about some ideas. There's tons of examples. Yeah, examples are always the, it's like learning a language. You want to learn the grammar and the different ways to do it, but then you just want to see masters to do it, and it starts to make sense and starts to become in the realm of possibility for you. Okay.

Number two, what we want to hear. So, Peter, when you're playing with a guitarist, you play with a great Romero Lubombo. Actually, Romero featured on this latest Billy Eilish special, which is so cool. Yeah. She, like myself, we have many things in common that we like to collaborate with Homero Lubbombo. That's right. That's right. So when you and Romero are playing,

how what do you want to hear out of that guitarist as you're accompanying diane reeves for instance yeah so okay so i've done quite a few duos with him and then quite if actually we've done a few gigs just guitar piano and vocals yeah and so the more that i focus on what i want to hear like um that really getting inside of the the beauty of the way homero plays for instance like that starts to that that's kind of an interesting and fun and unselfish way to approach you because then all I'm really thinking about is like what do I what do I kind of fit in around the edges for that and not to say that there are times when I would probably kind of take over or take a more dominant role but like it's okay to be selfish to be like I just like to listen like if it's

somebody that sounded good yeah you know like just back off a little bit and there's nothing wrong with that and play around that play supportive roles play around the edges and because what you want to hear is very much along the same lines of what this is like see a lot of people say Oh, what do I want to hear? Oh, I want to hear them supporting me. What you're really saying is you want to hear yourself. You know, in which case, get a solo gig. Exactly.

So you want to find the beauty. And then look, even if you're not playing with a master like Romero Lubombo, we can find beauty in, I mean, I love people that know how to like, you know, like we'll talk to somebody who just frustrates us. And then you'll have some smart, saintly person that's like gets really engaged with them. And it's like, you know, brings out the great things. And it's like, wow, I wish I could have been so, so inspiring and outgoing to find beauty of this idiot. You know. Yeah.

So you got to do that sometimes, and you can do it. So number three, what we don't want to hear. The first thing that comes to mind for me is sort of the antithesis of what you were just talking about. Right. Someone who's not listening, right? Someone who's just going to steamroll over the conversation. Yeah. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but guitarists do tend to crank the volume.

Well, they got that buttons right there. The dial, the dial. They get them a fender twin and they just go nuts with it. Let's talk about dialing in. some humanity instead of dialing in the volume only. That's right. You know, there's really, though, I would say there's no musical or textural thing that I would say is completely off the table. It just depends on the situation. Yeah. Like I wouldn't want to say like, oh, I don't want to hear like big, thick chords if I'm playing.

No, like, it could be like the perfect thing that I want to hear. Yeah. It just depends on what's happening. So again, I just don't want to hear someone who is not paying attention to what's happening in the room. And it's just another way to say, listen, but it's so true. Well, yeah, it's just, I mean, it's like you don't want to hear somebody that's not listening as they're playing because they're going to be playing a bunch of stuff that might be great on its own but it's not appropriate it doesn't fit into the situation so it makes the whole not work you know and we can never be like no but that was a really cool whism like really like I play but you're not doing it the right time because you're not listening that's right number four is to use the whole instrument yes so watch this so I'm going to

play a little F blues Peter I'm going to comp for myself we'll do a little baseline Peter's going to a comp with me as a second instrument. And watch Peter use maybe some range that is a little unexpected. Ready? Yep. It said comping. Oh, sorry.

He's got soloing over here. Well, no, you were coming. I thought I was supposed to. See, I did the ultimate complimentary thing. I'm solo because you're copying. So we're copying. Why are we both comping then? Oh, we're showing as an example.

Sorry. What is this episode about? Sorry. And now what I'm doing, you might say, oh, I'm soloing still. No, no, no, no, Montferre. I'm riffing a pie, right? There's a pretend saxophone solo going on here.

Yeah, this would work. It feels good. Sorry, man. It does feel good. But single line going up high, right? You see the whole instrument? Yeah, no, let's do it again and watch what Peter does. Again, we're talking about using the range of the instrument.

So what if I did this? Two, three. He's already on it. He knew what was going to happen. But he's anticipating. I see the bare paws going up high. And could I show him what not to do? Yeah.

I'm trying to ape what you're doing. It's a little much. Yeah, but doing, just like trying to cover exactly where the other person is. Now, again, this is not like a hundred percent. It doesn't work. Sometimes you can be in the same range as someone and something beautiful come of it. But don't forget, you've got 88 keys. Use them.

Yeah, and that's a really, I mean, we're both playing keyboards here, but with the guitar, you know, and this will take us right to our next one by knowing the other instruments range and timbre and sound and stuff. we have a bigger spectrum of notes to play from so we should take it. That's really up to the pianists to take advantage of that more than the guitarist. And that leads us right into number five. Know about the other instrument,

about its range, about its timbre, about how it works. The more you know about the guitar, the vibes, the bass. The more you know. The easier it is to compliment them and to play off of them. So it's really, really important.

You know, pick up a guitar and see what it's like to play a chord and how that feels for a guitarist and try the different ranges of the other instruments. See what it's like to play like a three-note or four-note voicing on the vibes and see where you might fit in as a pianist to that. Right, because now you'll know this, Adam,

because you're quite the guitarist as well as keyboards, but some of our piano playing listeners might not know this. You can't play that voicing, you know, that nine-note voicing on the guitar that close together. It's not possible. It doesn't work.

It's not enough strings. You don't have enough fingers. And it's just, so it's like just those basic things about what spacing and shapes work on guitar because we can hear them, but we can't always understand. Like the perfect ear training doesn't always lead you

to just like, okay, identify all those notes like you have perfect pitch. Sometimes you have to understand the commonly played things to be able to identify those patterns. You got to know the clichés and the tropes. It's really, really, really crucial. Yep.

All right. So let's do some example recordings of some great guitar and piano. duos you put here right at the top bill evans interplay which i think is really important and undercurrent with jim hall yes and you brought that up yeah that's that's such a great one um and they're both undercurrent that's the duo it's just duo so that's perfect as an example for just really sensitive it's gargous man it's gargous and i mean but they go in they're they're not like oh tiptoeing around each other at times like you know i mean they're playing they're doing their thing and so

that is probably you know one of many but but just a great sort of encyclopedia of specific techniques you can do in a duo situation. The Bill Evans interplay is more like for a typical what you might come across. With a rhythm section. With a rhythm section at a jam session or whatever. You got Philly Joe Jones. I think it's Percy Heathman. That's a great record.

Freddie Hubbard. I would also. Jim Hall. I know you wouldn't say this, but I would recommend the Peter Martin Romero Labombo live record. You were in Japan, right? Yes, live. Yeah.

No, I think that's, I think we do the guitar or piano thing pretty good. You really do. Yeah. And then, man, Oscar Peterson trio. Yes. Oh, with Joe Pass. Well, with a number of guitars, but I'm thinking... Yeah, yeah, Joe Pass.

Actually, that record on, I think it's Pablo from like the 70... I don't know, early 70s called... I think it's called The Trio with its base, it's Neal's Heading, Orsted Pedersen, Joe Pass and Oscar Peterson. Now, Oscar Peterson, you would think, oh, he can't play with guitar because he's so busy. Or that when he does play with guitar, he's not... playing is busy, but he is. He is. Yeah, yeah. He's still Oscar Peterson.

It just works. Joe passed is Joe passed. So some great examples on there for sure. Awesome stuff. Well, thank you, everybody. So just to recap, number one, listen. And, well, it's really just all listening. This is going to recap, but it's really just all about listening. All about finding your place. And that really starts with the awareness of what the other player is doing, the awareness of what they're likely to do by getting to know their instrument,

and the awareness to know where they are in the music and then find your spot with that. Absolutely. Cool. So thank you for the question, Brian. And please go to you'll hearate.com to leave us to speak pipe. And look, when you record it, you might think, oh, I'm going to mess up. They're going to put me on the air. You have a chance to re-record it.

Did you know that? It's not like a one-take situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So don't feel like, oh, you know, it's no reason to be nervous. Just drop us that question. Leave us a rating review. Please go wherever you're listening to this podcast. That helps spread the love and the algorithms take over to put this in front of people that might be interested in a benefit to that.

Let's go out on a little duo, eh? Okay. Ah.