You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What Do We Want From a Drummer? - #175

Episode Date: August 9, 2018

In today's episode, Peter and Adam discuss some things they like about good drummers, and some things they don't like about not-so-good drummers. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Maness and I'm Peter Martin and you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast daily jazz advice coming at you brought to you by open studio that's right so today Peter we have a question do you happen to know where our listeners might send us some questions yes to uh you'll hear it dot com or to uh no that's really the place to go yeah you'll hear it dot com you can slip it under our door we'll read it I guess we probably won't read it if it's up door uh now this is a question you can you can leave us a voice question but this is a question that was typed out. typed. On a keyboard. On a Smith Corona. So this is from a user Matt. Matt says Peter and Adam. Do you know what a Smith Corona is?

Never heard of him. Eli is our audio engineer. Eli's under the age of 40. Well, under the age of 40. Eli's under the age of 20. He is. No idea. Okay.

So Matt writes, Peter and Adam, great podcast. Thank you, Matt. Thanks for your diligence and spreading knowledge. I'm a drummer that's moving toward improving my vibraphone playing. It's very commendable. This has been a liberating challenge.

I've only had one vibes gig so far. It was tremendously fun and terrifying. During the gig, I naturally observed the drummers playing. He was a total pro, but it got the gears turning. What do you two love and a great drummer? What are characteristics that are frustrating? What do drummers need to do more of slash less of? Thanks, Matt.

This is an easy one. I like drummers that buy rounds of drinks and food after the gear. I knew that was coming. I hate drummers that don't do. I knew that was gone. Wow. Well, that's a great question. This is Matt?

Matt, great question. You know, for me, it's hard to separate what I think is great attributes of a drummer without thinking of specific drummers that I love to play with. So it's sort of based around that. But I don't know that it's that different than any other musician. I think it's the same with every other. other instrumentalist. But maybe I guess he's asking something,

maybe we should unpack this and see if there is anything specific to drummers. Well, there are some things I think that are kind of exaggerated with the drums. Yeah. That are more noticeable than say with like a trombonist, right, which are the two things that come to mind are dynamics. Yeah.

And time. Right. So if a drummer has bad dynamics and bad time, to me it sticks out more than like a horn player. Because of the potential volume that they have with the instrument and the potential outsized influence they have on the time and being able to take control of that, it can be so much more influential than a trombone, for instance. Absolutely.

And it's not that it's not important for a trombonist, but a trombonist is going to be harder for them to sort of take control of the time and the volume by the nature of the instrument. Right. I mean, a drummer can overpower an entire band if they want to. Right. You know, and as a pianist, you know, I play a lot of smaller jazz clubs with acoustic pianos. and acoustic drums, and if I'm playing with a drummer that plays, you know, high, high up on a dynamic range, I feel kind of powerless against that.

You know, everything kind of becomes too big than I want to make it. Now, if I play with, you know, the drummer in my trio, Mr. Montez-Colman, I mean, incredibly dynamic drummer can play at a whisper but with lots of intensity. So it really gives me way more room to work, you know, and I have a bigger dynamic. dynamic ranges. Yeah, and I think that the great drummers and the ones that we love to play with are the ones, it's not just about they play quiet. It's they play dynamically.

They play dynamically. Yeah, and by nature of the instrument, I mean, the piano's a very dynamic instrument as well. Yeah. But I mean, the drums is really, for most of the instruments that we come across, is potentially the most dynamic, I would say. It's got the biggest range, it's got the biggest combination of different, I mean, look, the drums is a bunch of different instruments.

That's the other thing. Yeah. You know, you got symbol, and they're all different. You know, the symbol, the bass drum, some of them are beats. Sometimes they can use their hands on them. I mean, the diversity of the dynamics possible, and then the different combinations is almost infinite, you know. So I would say that a great drummer has control over those things.

And then not only it's not like, oh, they don't play too loud for you. That's just like level one. Exactly. But it's like, no, they do play a lot at the right time. When they need to. I'm thinking of the last trio gig I saw of yours here at Jazz at Bistro was with Brian played on drums. And I don't think there's anybody better at playing dynamically. Oh, yeah. At being able to read the vibe of the song and how loud he needs to be. I mean, he just puts in

these tasty, big things that need to happen. And then, of course, he can be as quiet, you know, as a whisper and be there for you. And everybody always says, they're like, wow, Brian, he's such a he plays quiet so well. And I'm like, yeah, he does, but he plays medium so well. He plays loud so, like he does them all. And more importantly, he doesn't have the right plate. Like, he plays it's all part of one way of playing. Like when people say he plays very quiet, it's because they've heard him play in a situation that calls for a lot of so-called quiet playing.

And they look at him because he's little, or he's slender and his drums are small and stuff. And so they think, oh, he's just a quiet drummer, but don't get a twisted, as the kids are saying now. Because when you play with him and you need that power and you need that volume, it's there. And that's really the dynamics I think we're talking about. It is.

But I think people do go to that because, in my experience, you know, playing quietly is kind of, that's level one of being a dynamic drummer. But so some people, they never get there. Exactly. To some drummers, you know, they just are always at mezzo forte when they're swinging. Right. And that can be a real, for a pianist, for a basis, that can be a hard thing to deal with. Yeah. And I mean, I should have, just to clarify about level one, I mean, if you can play quietly well, like different grooves, that's way beyond level one.

Yeah. You know, I just meant that like, yeah, playing at the right volume level, that's something that everybody needs to be thinking about doing. It's surprising how many good drummers lose sight of that. That's true. We've worked with it. It's like the dynamics they don't. And then, you know, your other point is the same thing. I think in our thinking in terms of time.

You know, dynamics and time, I mean, I love both those things and so important for every instrument. But let's be honest, like for for drums. Like when I was younger, I always think like, no, all this stuff is important. The world is great. you know you glossy-eyed but I mean I think as you get older and more mature in the music you realize like there's a reason certain things are old-fashioned roles you know like a drummer yeah they don't own the time but they better have the best time up there for to be a successful man that better be rock solid yeah it's it's just got to be it's and again caveat it's everybody's responsibility

yeah it's got to be everybody's responsibility and ideally everyone is doing that and you you know as a pianist as a trumpet player you have to have to have good time. You're not going to get away without it. But for some reason, the drums have the most influence. It seems like over the time. It's your job. It's your job. It is kind of your job. And I used to be afraid to say that. But I mean, just like for a piano player, certain things, then we're like, well, how can we have to count off the tune or like figure out the key with the singer? That's part of our job. And it's not that we're necessarily better, but we probably should be better because it's more about our instrument is suited to that role. Yeah,

You know, totally. And so the more we're within that, I mean, it's like the guy, you know, the, you know, the center in American football who's hiking the ball. I mean, we kind of all have a picture of what this person looks like usually physically. They can't be 180 pounds. They cannot be. Yeah. I mean, unless it's like pee-wee league or what do they call it. I mean, even that.

Those kids are huge. Yeah. But I mean, it's like the guy hikes the ball can't when they huddle up or when they go for the coach's meeting. Can be like, how come one don't get to score touchdowns and throw the ball? That's not your job. That's not your role. That's not your role. Yeah, stay in your lane a little bit.

And I think time is one of those things that has to be there with the drummer. I prefer, if you're going to have any weirdness in time, I prefer to lean forward a little bit. Yeah. Never drag. Never drag. Always rush. Lean forward is okay because I lean forward for sure. But, yeah, never let that time sleep.

And then, you know, can we talk about, he didn't ask about pet peeves on drummers, but we can throw that in, right? Yeah, of course. Okay. So when you do lean in, as you so euphemistically say, rush. you know, and then you realize it, don't pull back then. You know, you've already committed the sin. You planted your flag. You planted your flag.

Don't pull it up and try to change it, you know. Like you throw the discus, it's been marked already. You can't pull that back. You know, you have another chance to throw on the next tune. But just because I think that the pulling back always has an adverse feeling. I mean, the rushing really, yeah, of course we're going to try not to. But think about all the great live recordings and soon. video recordings where if you go back and check it, then you don't even notice it.

Some really famous bands. Yeah, you don't even notice it because the energy, it kind of matches. Feel first. Feel first for sure. But the dragging, you do notice. The dragging, you'll notice. Yeah. You know, and Pet Peaves, I'm going to say, and this is also, again, true for every musician,

but something that can be devastating when you're trying to keep time is a drummer that overplays that's, like, filling every chance they get. I mean, in some... Just keep talking. I'm going to do the exact. Let's see if you can concentrate. No, I mean, listen. Okay, that's what I'm talking about.

Oh, you can't even get one sentence? No, I mean, there's... I can't... See, this is what I'm saying? There are... Some people can get away with it. Yeah. They're definitely like, I mean...

Well, there's a time for maybe... Based upon what the soloist is playing usually. Totally, yeah. If the soloist is trying to interact with you, if the vibe of the music you're playing is very interactive and everybody's sort of adding stuff as they're going, that's cool. But if you're playing...

playing a B-flat blues and the bass player is trying to lay it down. Yeah. Chill. Exactly. Play the groove. I think, you know, to answer the question in terms of what do we look for in a drummer, it would be number one. Listen. Yeah. That's what the drummer, but it really, but it's no different than anybody else. Yeah. Again, the drummer can have such an influence on the busyness. Totally. That it's even more important. Hey, listen, and if you're doing it, right, if you're listening, you can play as much as you want, right? Like, yeah. I've seen, I got to see, I literally was in the front row at the vanguard for Paul Motion. And he played through everybody's solo in a way that was so beautiful.

And appropriate. And appropriate. And it just lifted the entire band. But that's because he was a master listener. Right. You know, of like world class caliber listener. So that's what it takes. A little side note on Palm Ocean.

That's where I learned, my first learned my carry-on-only travel technique on the road from Paul Motion. He hit you that. Back in the mid-90s. Yeah, mid-1990s. by the way. Yeah, he was a master. It wasn't like, who when you get on your stage coach?

Yeah, it was. 1890s. And no, no, no, he was, I remember meeting him on the road and like, of course, I knew who he was and it followed him and was like, you know, geeked out on meeting him and all these great musicians when I first was doing my thing. And he was like the only musician, I mean, old or young or any generation that I'd ever seen do this where he would only have a carry on. And this was a time, it wasn't like now where they weighed the bags and stuff.

Like you could bring a hundred pound duffel bag. We used to do that. We used to do the Joshua Redmond Quartet circa 1995, 96. It's ridiculous. We used to have a joke, Brian Blade would be his suit, his, he'd only bring one bag, a duffel bag. We all had duffel bags. But this thing, it was like he was going, he was going to college. And we called it the walrus.

The name of his bag was the walrus. And he had like, he actually, this is true story, all these clothes. He'd bring books, like art books, coffee table books, you know, like heavy books on. on like Frank Lloyd Wright, architecture. So Brian Blade. And then a record player. And records you would bring. But I mean, it didn't matter because you could check.

It was just the number of bags. You could check it as heavy as you wanted. And there was no charge or anything. I love, Brian Blade is like OG jazz hipster. Man, he's totally so great. Yeah. And so, yeah, we all had the big duffel bags. And then I met Paul Motion and then saw like,

and he would always look slick on the gigs. But he had like, he wore like a black shirt and black paint. I mean, like it was very kind of New York, you know, it wasn't super innovative, but it was like, he always looked good and appropriate, you know, for the gig. But yeah, he only had this little carry on. And I was like so amazed. And I was always like, man, that's impossible. We got the walrus and junior walrus and all this. But years later, I started doing it. And that's been like a game changer. Should we do an episode on travel? Yeah, we should. We've done it before, but we could always expand on that, especially tips like that.

Yeah, but I first got it from Paul Motion. Big shout out, Paul. So, man, one more thing that comes to mind before we leave this one that I think is probably when we were talking about roles, right? Yeah. I think one of the most important roles that the drummer has and that really great drummers are masters of

is marking the form. You know what I mean? Like this is like... Can I get an amen? Amen. This is something that all great drummers talk about a lot and that's knowing the form of the tune

but really letting everybody in the band know where it is. Marking the different sections, marking top of choruses. It sounds remedial, but it's an important part of that role. Man, Greg Hutchinson.

Totally. That dude, I mean, I learned how to really know forms from playing with him. I'm so eternally grateful. And, like, I mean, he would vibe, too. Like, if he thought you were starting, he'd like, he'll get a certain posture as he's playing. Like, I don't think I've ever, I mean, all the times I play with him, I don't think I've ever heard him not knowing what the form was. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Like, like, I mean, we all kind of, like, laps out. It's a kind of consistency that it has to be like a, part of your personality and then you have to commit like to the to to the grit of

doing it all the time but I think you know to your point you have to like believe how important it is as a drummer to do that just like knowing the time playing with dynamics I think it's a crucial crucial part of it and here's what happens when you mark these forms when you become like the really good at like on a hutch level I mean no one's a hutch level but but as you kind of put importance on this all of a sudden the tunes start playing themselves oh yeah you know what I mean like the solos start playing themselves you're making everybody better around you everybody's better around you you sound better the audience all of a sudden is clapping yeah and into it because you're taking

any kind of ambiguous crap yeah that that is not crucial to the song out i almost think now this is a great conversation because i'm almost thinking about like now the drummer i always think like you know having a lot of personality is important i mean that's important for any answer but i think drummers because they can potentially be in the kind of traditional jazz set up within the rhythm section, a potential conversation with anybody at any time. It's maybe the one instrument. I mean, you know, the base is sort of the foundation is always playing, but in some ways baseline, you know, doing their own thing, certainly interacting.

But, I mean, the drums, because of the variety of instruments and the hands and the, I mean, there's just so much potential going on. So having a great personality musically and hopefully off the bandstand as well is sort of a trait we see with most of these drummers, colorful personality and interesting in being able to have those cool conversations, somebody that you'd have a great conversation with, it's going to be the same thing on a band stand. I mean, let's be honest.

Piano players can get away with being nerds. That's just the truth of the matter. It's almost like a requirement. I'm trying to buck the trend, yo. We can try as much as we want. We will always be sort of the nerds of the band. That's just how that kind of goes. But you're right.

There's something about drummers. Are there any good drummers that are nerds? I mean, I don't want to call anybody out, but not really. The thing is, like, drummers tend to have a lot of personality. I don't know if those things go hand in hand. And it's like, you know, I played a couple weekends ago with Terry Lynn Carrington, the great Terry Lynn Carrington.

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, not a lot of female drummers. And, but she's like, she's just like not a nerd, you know? I mean, it's, it's, no, it's just, I mean, she's such a, I mean, all these elements that we're talking about. Like, I mean, you're talking about, like, really command of the time and like, I mean, commitment to that. And if it's start, I mean, you know, she, she understands those. I mean, she's a great teacher, too. So I think she's thought these things out and stuff.

But I mean, these elements, I mean, you brought up earlier, Montez Coleman. I was just looking at that, you know, multimillion view, Roy Hargrove, New Morning, a famous YouTube video of Strasbourg-S-Denis. Now, that's a textbook, I would say, for anybody listening now, if you're a drummer or want to learn how to play with drummers and understand them, I think really exemplifying all these things that we said. Mark in the form, groove in. And you might go on and be like, wow, he's kind of playing.

loud. No, he's playing for that tune and that. First of all, he's not, he's playing the right dynamics at every part of it. Oh, yeah. When it goes to the piano solo, he breaks it, you know, controlling the, I mean, you know, it's almost like the point guard, like making everybody better constantly, lots of personality. Lots of personality. And really, I mean, he, I mean, as much personality as Roy has, and that's his tune and he's out front. And I think that Montez really drove that thing. But even whoever's getting those YouTube royalties, better be sending some to Ted's, you know what I'm saying? But a totally different kind of band, totally different kind drummer look like the bad plus right Dave King like that guy his whole personality is kind of that

band and he's doing all these I mean dynamically he's playing these like sick groove they sound like trap grooves or whatever but like he's playing them at a perfect volume for what's going on around we didn't need to even say we should just name like you know Montes Coleman Dave King right you know Brian Blake Greg Hudson you listen he's all I mean we we can just name all like these drummers that we play with that have it but I mean I think that we yeah I think we broke it down though nicely in some things. And it's such a variety of, and I think if you go back, I never had a chance to play with Elvin Jones, but I heard him play live several times. Could have used a little more personality. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, you're going to, you know, Tony Williams. It's like,

you're going to see all these same things. Well, we hope this answers your question. Matt, kudos to you for going in on the vibes, man. I think that's something that every drummer should really experiment with because, you know, you've got to learn a little piano. It's a percussion. But you got those skills already. You got those, hopefully those chops, you know, as a percussionist. Yeah, I mean, the vibes is just, it's inconvenient because a lot of places don't have them. But, I mean, it should not be at this, like, accessory, auxiliary level. I think it's mainly just because it's inconvenient.

I mean, last time I played the Vanguard, a Warren Wolf was playing with Christian McBride. And, like, the first day when we're going down there, oh, no, I don't think I noticed the last day after the gig we're hanging. And he's like, man, I got to go take the vise. Like, I was like, where? He's like, I got to go walk him down 7th Avenue to small. because I borrowed them from them this week. And it's like such a... Super inconvenient.

Yeah, and it's not like a piano where it's standardizing there. But I think it should because it's a great instrument. Yep. So if you would like to ask us a question, you can go to you'll hear it.com. You can leave a voice message.

You can leave a written question. What else we got? We're doing a little video. I don't know when this is going to be up there. We're experimenting with a little bit of a big shout-out to our fans on YouTube. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you brought up a good point.

I still don't understand it. People like to listen to watching podcasts on YouTube. YouTube. Do they though? Some people are just stuck on YouTube. Because you know, you get on there and you watch, oh, this is cool. I can't, I can't draw away. So we're going to put it up there, a little experiment. Yeah, we're going to do a little experiment this week. I mean, the podcast audio love. We're always going to have love for the podcast. That's the genesis. That's the beginning and the end. It's the ideal way to listen to a podcast is audio only. But some people do like the YouTube podcast. I think people would be surprised when they see how much we're like, you know, doing different things.

Well, I mean, it'll be good. You can kind of see what it's, what it looks like. We keep it real. You know what I'm saying? Really. And we can talk about podcast. You can go to iTunes or it's not called Apple Podcasts. Yep. Which, you know, a lot of you are listening to us. You can also listen to us on Spotify, of course, Google Podcasts.

But if you want to leave us a rating and review, go to the Apple Podcasts because we're kind of, we're kind of, we're putting them there. We're not putting them there. They're not putting them there. Yeah. That's where we're able to go see them easily. It's kind of like Podcast Central for us. So even if you listen. And we had a nice one yesterday.

I don't know if you even knew about this. Yeah. No, I don't usually check. Well, me neither. But once we get to this segment of the program, I somehow check. Yeah, you can leave us a rating and review. Seven stars. But this one, and you can give it a title, which is cool.

So the title of this review is Jazz Reality Show. What did I just say? We're keeping a real. That's pretty real. And this is five-star review. Okay. And it's from David Elaine from the United States of America. It's so funny how they put that is.

The United Makes us sound so important. United States of America. Yeah, yeah. A great real-life day-to-day view of the jazz music world ranging from great performance tips, love the seven ways to end tunes.

That was a popular episode of us. Yeah, yeah, we got back at the piano. Yeah. Do more of those. To life lessons, gritting through, gig preparation, interaction with others

that provide a glimpse into the monumental effort of practice and learning to provide a 45-minute set. And have helped me as a budding musician set objectives and expectations. That's pretty nice.

For the great podcast. Yeah. That's nice. Actually, that seven-waste and a tune, you did a little blog post on that, I believe. I did, yeah. There is a blog post up on openstudio network.com slash blog, where you can check out a PDF of that seven-waste anato tune. Awesome. I think we did it all.

Until tomorrow. You'll hear it.