You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What is Counterpoint? - #62

Episode Date: November 20, 2018

Today in the pod-cave, Peter and Adam answer the world's grooviest question: what is counterpoint? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Adam Manus. And you're listening to the Yule here at podcast. Daily jazz advice and occasional counterpoint coming at you. Was that? That was technically counterpoint, I guess. It was. I kind of slipped into more of a rhythmic bass line because I got excited, but, you know, whatever.

Such a jazz cat. Right. Well, I'm going to learn so much along with our listeners and along with you this episode that I'll be able to execute a little better on my counterpoint. by the end. How about that? That's great. Yeah, we had a question at you'll hearotcom, by the way, which you can go to if you ever want to ask us a question. That's right. It's a question from a listener, Leo, and Leo asks, hey there, could you take an episode to explain counterpoint? I hear people talk about it all the time, and I have no idea what it is or the concept behind it.

I hope you are well. Leo, Leo, thank you for the question. We've done a little bit talking about counterpoint. We've never done, I think, a whole episode on it. Right. You know, it's not something that can really be talked about in 10 to 12 minutes in full, but we can kind of give you a brief description about what it is and maybe how you can use it in your jazz playing and maybe some resources that we've used to develop some counterpoint ideas. Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all,

counterpoint, if my understanding of this is correct, and if it's not correct, I'm too old to relearn it, so this is my concept. No, but it's basically just two different melodic lines going on at the same time that are distinct from each other. Exactly. And usually they're not, they're not, it's not really counterpoint if they're running in parallel,

like two melodies that are octaves running at the same rhythm and the same melody. That's not counterpoint. It's harmony. That's exactly. And so it's two different independent things. And so I think there's a lot of great applications for it, usages for it in jazz. And I'm not sure about you, Adam, but for me, I kind of learned classical counterpoint first, but I was also listening to a lot of jazz

and learning some you know kind of early jazz piano that actually did include some counterpoint but I didn't really make the connection with the classical traditional counterpoint I mean I learned out of this book Walter I think it was Walter Piston Piston for sure counterpoint which is like an old school

sort of textbook not even a textbook just book explanation which was really good that my dad recommended and kind of had sitting around the house it was probably like a 1961 version from when he was in music school or something But then I also dabbled in the Scherendberg, you know, counterpoint book. But basically, you know, the application I think to jazz that really first resonated with me and could be a good thing for people to start to get into understanding this is at the piano, just a bass line, which is really a melodic thing.

We always try to, you know, separate it out and say it's just a company, but a good baseline is a melody. In jazz, yeah, yeah. Well, in any music, but especially in jazz, because of the four elements. Right, right. And it like in a Bach fugue or something, like if it's a, what are the fuchs usually, four parts? Yeah. Yeah. Or even like a corral, Bach chorale, which we always think about studying harmony, but there's a lot of interesting counterpoint stuff happening sometimes with the baseline. Certainly with the fugues, the melody can be anywhere in any of the voices. Bass, you know, baritone, tenor, alto, soprano, any of those different registers. So in jazz, when you get a really good baseline going and then just a really nice melody and like a lot of the lessons that we do,

for the students is like break it down to just those two elements. And then you're talking about counterpoint. So you have the melody and then you have the baseline going at the same time. There's your counterpoint. Absolutely. You know, you can check out in jazz, I always refer to students to Khan Alma, the great Dizzy Gillespie

composition because there are these, it's a counterpoint between the bass and the melody. You can also check out tunes by Coltrane, like Giant Steps and Countdown. You know, those baselines and melodies between those changes are a great example of some jazz counterpoint, right?

Where it's like the way those two lines interact are the crucial parts of this. And if you're good and you can play all this stuff, like for instance, Giant Steps, it's almost a detriment of really understanding Counterpoint. That's why we say break it down to the root movement, not even if it's not a baseline. Like if it's quick enough like Giant Steps, because I just saw this. I don't know if you've seen this kind of, I think it's Axiom or Axis or something, does the thing about Giant Steps like a break. First of all, we gotta do an episode of that.

There's some false information in there. I know. I don't like to use the term fake news, but there's some fake information in there. Okay, but one thing that did, I think it did sort of touch on, but didn't explain enough, would make sense for this counterpoint, and that's this with the baseline. Coming over to the Kranek and Bach. Kranick and Buck. That's the melody of the root movement.

That's not even a baseline. That's just the root movement. And then it does the same thing in another key, the same melodic movement. So once you start to hear that, and this is an interesting one because the melody moves right with it, rhythmically too. Rhythmically, yeah. But it's going in a different direction. So even before you're playing and delineate the harmony in between, just play the root and the melody of really any tune, but especially this kind of thing. And then you'll start to kind of understand counterpoint.

And the whole thing with counterpoint, I think that's important for jazz is being able to hear distinct melodic lines and different registers on any instrument, vocal, piano, saxophone, or whatever. at the same time because that's such an important skill for us to have in a jazz improvisation situation with a band. Because you want to be able to hear the baseline as a melody while you're playing a different melody, while maybe there's some inner movement with the pianist or whatever. So an interesting thing also about Giant Steps is that sometimes PC, Paul Chambers, the bass player, will create a different counterpoint with that same chord changes but using a different root movement. Right. With some substitution.

He'll use the fifth as a bass player. a substitution. Instead of that, he'll go straight down because you can create these other counterpoint melodies within, you know, that chord structure as a bass note. I remember one of the teachers that had the biggest effect on me in college at the new school was Armadonilian who taught ear training, but is really more of a music theory slash life coach kind of personality. And he always would preach that the baseline needs to be just as singable.

and melodic as the melody. Oh, I love that. You know what I mean? I love that. And if you can create bass lines that are memorable and singable with them, you know, as well as the melody, then you're really creating something special.

Yep. And I think that goes for giant steps. It goes for anything like that. It goes for Kahn Alma as well, countdown. You know, I came to the actual study of classical counterpoint a little bit later. I'd already been playing a lot of jazz

and I just had started, this was maybe eight to 10 years ago. I'd started writing more for string. and doing orchestral arrangements and really wanted to understand some of these rules of creating these counterpoint melodies. And a friend of mine, a classical composer,

recommended the study of counterpoint by Johann Joseph Fuchs. Fuchs, I think that's a safe pronunciation of that. That's what we're going with for our PG-13. For our PG-13. Spelling? F-U-X. Oh, I thought it was F-U-C-H-S.

Nope. FUX. Fuchs. Yeah, Fuchs is good. What's what I'm going to say? Right. Anyway, but this is an amazing book. It's like $11 in paperback.

It's called The Study of Counterpoint by Fuchs, FUX. And it's the same book that Hayden learned from, Mozart learned from Beethoven. It's been trans. Hacks, hacks, hacks. I know. It's been, it's one of the oldest counterpoint pedagogy books there is, and you can still buy it. And there's all these great exercises. I know I've talked about it on the podcast before.

All these great exercises. it's going to make you sound like those guys. Right. Like you're going to, it's not going to develop your, you know, modern jazz writing at all. There's no blues counterpoint studies chapter in there? There is not. But it's kind of good to just go through some of these exercises,

build on it, understand these rules of Western, you know, harmony and the basis of Western counterpoint. They all apply to pretty much anything that Western music does. It's almost like math. Like when you, I mean, math, there's new discoveries made. There's new usages and engineering. and all this, but like the foundations of mathematics, just like the foundations of music with the scales that we use,

that never changes. And once you have that foundation, it's fun and, dare I say, not necessarily easy, but becomes useful and easy at a certain point to apply it to this style of jazz. And, you know, the things that make it, I mean, you don't have to worry about it. You're not going to sound classical when you're playing jazz because, you know, the groove and the harmony

and the different ways that we use it in jazz will come out. That's already inside of you. But it is fun to really go back and get some of those. foundational things. You know, for listening for jazz, for counterpoint, there's a ton of options. I mean, first of all, almost anything Duke Ellington ever made. Oh, yeah. Has such sophisticated harmony and counterpoint.

Yeah. And is really worth transcribing, worth trying to get your hands on some of those old scores. Yeah, studying the scores, I think. And look, you can see on a basic level, you know, it's counterpoint is about being able to look at a score, even before you can totally hear. If you can look at it and hear it, that's even better. But to be able to identify vertical versus horizontal, obviously the horizontal being the counterpoint if it's there which it usually is.

Totally agree. And check out also, I've been listening to a lot of Art Blakey lately and especially when Wayne Shorter was in the band, you can check out. I mean, there's a, it walks the line between, you know, harmony and counterpoint, but there's a lot of counterpoint going on. And I mean, it is really... With the melody lines. With the melody lines. With the melody lines, you know, I'm thinking like three blind mice and all these albums that have these great lines lines that go parallel and sometimes envelop the melody. And it's incredible what they're they accomplished and it's almost like they enveloped the melody like in like they're in an envelope when we could we say that i think that's literally what it means do okay good well good well we

nailed that one as usual counterpoint achieved uh leo i hope this helped answer your question even a little bit uh check out those two books um yeah let's do a little roundup remember people like roundup you can check out uh duke ellington uh you can check out uh coltrain giant steps countdown you can check out can check out Dizzy Gillespie's Con Alma, anything from Art Blakey from the Wayne Shorter area. Area? Man, I'm having a hard time. Uria, Uria. And then the books are all, I think they're all called Counterpoint. Is the Fuchs book called

Studies in Counterpoint? The Study of Counterpoint. There's the Walter Piston Counterpoint. And then the Arnold Schernberg, I think it's like Studies in Counterpoint or something. But those are, any of those. I mean, you're going to get a lot. And then if you want to go deep, go deep. That's right. we have some new reviews. Oh, it's been a minute.

It's been a minute. Do we have any seven-star reviews? You know what? We ask and you shall receive. Have there ever been truer words written than that? Man, I love seven-star reviews. They're good. I'm going to read our most recent one.

I don't even know if this is actually seven stars. But... Well, if it's not, don't even love it. Oh, it is. It starts out. Key component of jazz piano studies. I see five stars. That's why I was like.

But then right after that, he wrote. he or she wrote seven stars. As a recent subscriber to the OSN jazz piano course, this podcast is a key component of my daily engagement in listening and practicing. As a mature hobbyist, in quotes, now I don't know, do they mean they're of mature age or they're mature at being a hobbyist?

I mean, that's what I say, because I'm old, but I would want to talk about myself? Yeah. As a mature hobbyist with the time to get serious about chops and deep knowledge, I really appreciate the OS approach of committed professional teachers supporting and responding to a worldwide community of players.

And that's from retiree, Steve, from the USA. So, yeah, I guess it's mature and retired. So thank you so much, Steve, for that. And I actually, you know, our goal with Open Studio is really exactly what you've put it better than we've been able to come up with. Committed professional teachers supporting and responding to a worldwide community of players.

That's truly what we have. And I'm so appreciative to our professional teachers, starting with you, Adam. right here in-house. Oh, well, you're welcome, buddy. Going all the way, you know, to Christian McBride, Donne Reeves, Gregory Hutchinson at the drums. I mean, these are truly, you know, the best of the best players and professional,

but they are great teachers. That's right. Like, we don't have anybody here that just can play but doesn't know how to inspire, how to teach, how to explain. You know, some people, they don't want to, they don't want to pull the, what was the thing in the whiz, in the Wizard of Rock? They don't want to pull the curtain back. Yeah, but it was like they were hiding behind there.

the wizard was back there. It was a curtain. Well, it was a big, grandiose curtain, though, wasn't it? But that's what the whole, they talk about pulling the curtain back. That's from the Wizard of Oz. Okay, so the curtain. Like I said. Bro, it's Thanksgiving, man.

You could do catch up on your Wizard of Oz for real. Okay, so pulling the curtain back, that's, that's what they do and really give you the fun insights and the tricks of the trait and the other part he says about the worldwide community of players. We're so, so much thanks that we have this Thanksgiving week, but every week for these great players, many of them mature hobbyists, but we have some amazing professional players, and we don't

even draw the line. We just have people that are passionate like we are about this music and the movement that we are just sort of organizing here. We didn't create it. We're just sort of trying to connect the teachers and the players with the people that want to hear that, and that's what we're about. It's pretty cool, man. I mean, even for, I know for us, like

we get joy out of seeing someone like Steve Wilson or Jeffrey Kieser pull the curtain back on their process. Like, it's It's eye-opening. That's why I've been getting better. I mean, you noticed I've been better these last couple. I noticed you have been, too. Yeah.

And we get the lessons for free, you know, so it's a lot of personal benefit. But you too, you have the curtain wide open, sometimes a little too much. Hey now. No, but it is awesome. And our community of students all across the globe, I mean, we're in dozens and does scores of countries now. And it's great. You know, I get to interact on a daily basis in our, we have our own in-house social

network, the hang. We have our own Facebook group and I get to really interact with our students. It's awesome to get to hear from professionals and amateurs and beginners and people who are aspiring to just play jazz. And it's really a fun community. And I mean last month in October I was able to meet. I actually traveled to five continents on tour. I think the most I've ever done in one month. But on every continent I met students of ours.

Members of Open Studio was so fun. Folks that came up to me. Some I had met before and said, you know, and they weren't all students of mine. They were some of different courses. They were all access paths. And so that's a really beautiful kind of personal connection. And I love that meeting, meeting folks out there. So thank you, Steve.

And we have a little bit of exciting news this week, don't we? So you might have noticed, you know, we rarely go in for this kind of deal here on the You'll Hear at podcast. We like to keep the ULherit podcast, informative, light, and fun. But it's Black Friday, buddy. It's the week of Thanksgiving. It's a big week. It's a big week, and so we have these awesome deals. We want to make sure that you're hip to them.

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However, you don't even have to enter that into your computer. If you're listening on, say, an iPhone. and you're on the podcast app, which I know many of you are. All you have to do is where you see... Are you stalling now? I'm stalling now because I'm getting it up. Episode webpage, right?

Yeah, so what you do is you go to details. You see my episodes? See that, Pete? I'm showing Peter in my phone right now. See my episodes? And like, say you're looking at last Tuesdays should you move to New York City, Paris, L.A., Tokyo. Tell them what to do if they're listening right now to this episode.

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But actually that's a good reason you should go sign up now at openstudionnetwork.com slash BF because we're going to do a special thing for your. here at listeners only, a little priority announcement. Of course. And you're going to get a head start. But really, this is like, these are going to be our best deals of the year.

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Yeah. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for checking out that page, openstudio network.com, slash Black Friday. Go to details. Slash BF. Slash BF. Oh, man.

Just, you know, when you want to remember, just think of Adam. Just think of me. You're BF. You're best friend. Okay.