You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What Makes a Definitive Tune?

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

It's another live edition of You'll Hear It where Peter and Adam take your questions - on today's edition, they answer why jazz musicians love to play in C minor, how to know what a "definitive" version of a tune is, and more.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Tuesday's Open Studio Live Events:1:00 PM - Adam's Daily Guided Practice Session (for Members Only)3:00 PM - Jazz Piano Method Live with Peter Martin on YouTube4:00 PM - Open Studio Demo & Tour (register here)8:00 PM - At Play Live Listening Sesh with the band on YouTubeFor the rest of this week's calendar, follow this linkLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

We have some other questions here. Some funny ones. Like, why do jazz musicians love C minor so much? Oh, come on. Because it's easy. I don't just love C minor. I love C minor burnout. Right, right.

But you know what I learned last week doing all that Stevie Wonder music? Like, all his stuff is in really hard keys. Like, you know, living for the city's G flat. G flat, that's right. Although I did shift it up to G just for fun, you know. But actually, a lot of his keys, you know, a lot of E flat minor, D flat minor. E major.

E major, yeah. B major isn't... But in some ways, it's harder conceptually and harmonically, I guess, or just key-wise. But in terms of the piano, it's actually some of the same advantages you get with like C minor, I think.

Oh, yeah. As far as the shifting back and forth from black to white keys. That balance. Yeah, I mean, that's why I think, yeah, my favorite keys are, like A-flat, E-flat, where there's just a nice mix.

But also, G-flat minor, man. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and then, what was it? Am I still there? Oh, yeah. Minor, Stevie likes that. Yep. Ah, good stuff.

Podcave looking slick. Thanks, Luke. What's up, Luke? Dang right. Dang right. You know what I'm saying? All right, here's one. Here's one.

How do you decide which version of a tune becomes definitive? I learn tunes on piano then take them to my saxophone but on a pickup gig there's no guarantee what version the others will be playing you know I think it depends

on the tune like it's not so much for you to just decide sometimes it's already been decided you know and you really you know I think eventually there's certain tunes you have to learn several versions of several different

definitive versions I'm thinking like on Green Dolphin Street you've definitely got like the Miles version um And what else? Maybe that's the only one. Who knows?

But, um... Well, like round midnight. Round midnight. Yeah, there's... There's like six versions of that. There really should only be one version, which is the longest month. But because Miles had such an outsized influence. So I would say that's too, because I used to be that guy that was like, I played the right way.

And then the bass player would be looking at me like, I'm playing the wrong now. I'm like, no, this is the way it is. And, but then nobody really knew it. I mean, now people are getting better about learning that stuff. So you don't want to be that. dogmatic about it. So there's usually several you need to learn. I think that, you know, if it's something that you're not sure about, I always like to

think about going back to the vocal versions that are a little bit closer to the originals maybe so that you can build up from that. And then you can hear some of these other versions and ways people play. It's a lot easier to add things in than to take them away. Already said the other way around. No, you're right. You're right. I agree.

But you know what I'm saying? And so then it becomes an additive thing in terms of, you know, you know where you're starting from and then you go from there. That's true. I mean, if you're trying to, like, play with musicians, if you're trying to, like, kind of climb your way up, really learn the versions that the musicians around you know. Right.

That's always been a tip that I like to follow. It's like, you know, be on the scene. Right. That's really it. Right. Be on the scene. Like a sex machine. That's what James Brown song is.

Just saying. I mean, that's the name of song. Come on. That is. Here's a really good one. Oh, Vladimir, actually. is a good suggestion. Kieser has good ideas for advanced left hand. That's true, actually. The keys to jazz piano has some really good ideas for our last commenter. Yeah. Jazz Girl 3 says,

for those who sing and play piano at the same time, what accompaniment do you recommend playing rootless chords only while singing falls a bit short without a bass player? Any suggestions? So, Jazz Girl 3, we over here like to start you out on the root shell pretty side of things. All you need is the root, the shell, which is the third and seventh. Right? And then some pretty notes, like the 9th, 13th, 11th, 5th. It depends on the chord. But that structure from the bottom up, jazz girl 3, root, shell, pretty. Yep. This is going to get you to the promised land.

It's really all you need. Just start at least. Yeah. And I would just add, you know, in terms of like, I mean, that's the specific things to play. To me, it doesn't get any better than Shirley Horn for accompaniment. For piano playing, vocal accompaniment. you know, whether it's the same person or not. We always talk about she had an advantage because, I mean, if she was playing behind another singer would have been, I think, just as brilliant.

But, I mean, I think there's so much you can learn. And you can check out the way that she voices certain things. She definitely did a lot of these, like, what was it? Like some real, like, hip kind of forth voicing and then just some, like, root and shell kind of things. And, like, she shifted in and out of these things. So if you study. That sounds familiar, Pete.

I got to be honest. What? That sounds familiar. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm stealing it. So it's just a matter of like really. Shirley Horn's stuff is very accessible, I think, to singers. And I encourage just pianists in general, especially if you want to learn how to play behind a singer, to really analyze her playing.

And the way that, you know, not only just what her voicing is, like, once you catch her voicing, you're like, oh, that's pretty simple. I can get that. But then when she decides to use them, how she uses them, her timing, like it's all part of it, you know. But it's all stuff that you can learn and analyze for sure. That's good stuff. Oh, there's some really good questions coming in now. So Anthony says, I second Piano Man's question. We must have missed this.

How to juggle all of life's responsibilities and still find time for quality practice, family, and healthy habits. Oh, this is easy. Just put your family and your healthy habits aside and only play the piano. I tried that for a while. It did not work out that great. Yeah, you're going to want to do that for about 10, 15 years, Andy. Right. Yeah, this is great.

Okay, so I think, you know, for me, what I've found over the years, those are actually three things that I'm, I probably spend the most amount of time on right now. Quality practice, just music in general, family and healthy habits, or at least trying to be healthy habits. First of all, the fact you say healthy with habits, like that's, the more you can make any of these things habitual, I think, the better because it's just less to think about. So like spending time with family, spending time practicing. and actually we're going to record some episodes you don't even know about this yet Adam right after this about you know successful habits specifically within practice

that can make it so you don't have to practice 10 hours a day because nobody's got 10 hours a day and I actually don't I no longer think that's a great thing to do 10 hours I don't know that I ever did think it was great I did do it sometimes but I really believe part of like getting older and getting better and learning more about how to progress as a musician is about like how do I I mean not hack

not that we'd ever say. No, it's wisdom. You're talking about wisdom here. Yeah, but like how do you get 10 hours of practice in three hours? I really do believe that's possible. I'm like, shoot, we've been doing this long enough now. We should be able to figure some of that stuff out. So I think optimizing your time as the whole, as opposed to being like, okay, I've got to, today's my practice day.

I'm going to put my family to the side. It's like, no, what are the best times that your family schedule works for you when you can really have that quality time and that great family time on this day? Yeah, of course, you want to have a vacation. a weekend or whatever, that undivided time. But to me, I find it it's like you find those times to really be able to interact with people. And then you find that alone time. Like when is the time when you love being alone, like when you don't want to be around

anyone else, that's your practice time. Like when you, and I mean, you know, some people introvert, extrovert, we could talk about that. But the idea is like you've got to find that solitude at some time. And it can't be, you can't have the luxury of 10 hours a day. So you've got to figure out how do I optimize? Yep. So that's.

hours, that 90 minutes. I mean, we've talked about 15 minutes a day. If it's the right 15 minutes, you can make some progress during that. I think pretty much everybody, I mean, we've been in some, we're old enough now that we've been in an old, and about as hairy of parenting situations, right, as you can get. Multiple children. Picking them up at the police station. Oh, tell me about it, man.

No, but you know, that whole school, work, travel. We've done that kind of stuff a lot. And now with the pandemic, you know, I've done like homeschooling and you think you have all this time. You really don't. Right. And so I've come to think. Sourdough bread.

Sourdough bread. No, if you, I think pretty much everybody, unless you are having to, and unless you're in a really bad spot, you're working like two or three jobs and you have just, you know, you're a single parent. You have, you know, multiple, multiple kids all very little, which is a real possibility for a lot of people. But if you have any kind of balance, you got at least half an hour. I think everybody can carve out half an hour a day to do.

something for them. So what I do is consider my time in half an hour or hour chunks throughout the day. You know, I have my early mornings where I will either work out, do some yoga, go for a walk. Can we call that Adam time? A little Adam time. A little me time. A little me time. I have my lunchtime where I'll eat, but also maybe do a brief meditation. And then I have, you know, time in usually either the, now it's like either the early morning or late morning or even late afternoon or late evening, kind of varies. And that's kind of my practice time, whether I'm going to do some singing or some playing or some writing, you know, all of that is where I just kind of, I just kind of block out an hour.

Yep. And also, I think the key with this is if time with your husband or wife gets in the way of that one night, divorce them. Oh, sorry. Well, that just came out. That's a possibility. That is an option, but, you know, let it happen. Yeah.

And be okay with that. And accept where you are right then. And don't. Also, don't compare yourself to what Peter does or what I do or what your neighbor does. Do better. Do better than us. And your neighbor. Don't covet thy neighbor's practice routine.

You're just not going to. Yeah, you're just not going to. You got to find something that works for you. And really, you can't give a shit about what other people are doing. You just have to find what works for you. Are you growing in the way that you want to? You probably aren't ever. And that's okay.

You got to accept that. And we're just constantly, you know, Peter and I are constantly tweaking how we're doing this. Yeah. Just got to constantly tweak. Yeah, and I'll just add, actually, I'll try to do this quickly because there's three things I thought about. One of these might be helpful to some of you, or maybe all three, but three things that at different times and in different ways have been really game-changing for me in addressing this, you know, finding time, because there's some other things even on that list that I'm involved with as well that are starting to take up, you know, a fair amount of time. So it's like, how do you juggle them? The first thing

is like, really look at the amount of just bullshit you're doing. And it's not to say, that what's difficult about this, so I'll put out there watching Netflix or whatever streaming things, and to say that that's BS, like there's so much high quality stuff on there, so we get sucked into like, oh my God, this is so great, but I just mean

consumption in general. Like, we're always with a battle as artists of consumption versus producing something. Sure. And so practicing and spending time getting better is about producing something, even if you're not making a gig or making a record or something. So watch your consumption amount of time, because we

spend more time than we think on that. And then, and it's not to say that you can't zone out on Netflix sometime, but don't sit there and watch Netflix for three hours and they'd be like, oh my God, I didn't have a time to spend with my family. It's like, you know, that's the first. The second is turn off all your notifications.

Like I've told so many people this and they gloss over and they're like, oh, yeah, yes. I mean, really, like, I just, my phone is, and look, people that know me, they're like, you never answer your phone. I'm like, it doesn't ring because I don't do not disturb all the time. And you're like, notice when I call you, in a very calm collected mood because I'm not like upset. I go through periods where I turn off texts, everything.

Yeah. Like where I cannot be reached on anybody's time but my own. Yeah. Because if you start looking at that, like, you know, you can go in and see how much time you spend on your phone. It gives you that report. Like you will be shocked at how much time. So not to say that, look, we love technology around here.

I've got the phone. But don't let the phone control you, your time. Like you got to use it as a tool as a kind of betterment. So that's the second. And the third thing, I can't, oh, well, what you mentioned, Adam, about, you know, meditating sometimes during lunch, this is in general, like, if we have a little bit more thoughtful, mindful attitude about how we're going to allocate our time. Like, it's very easy to kind of wake up in the morning, be like, oh, my God, I got to spend time

with my family, I got to do this, and then you can get onto this sort of frantic thing. Yeah. So the great thing about meditation and being mindful in, you know, mindfulness is great to introduce to some of these other things, like healthy, like you can combine some of these things. Mindfulness and practicing for sure. Yeah. And mindfulness and the exercise, you know, but you can't combine them if you're like, okay, while I'm running or while I'm working out, I'm going to be listening to a podcast and reading and reading on my Kindle. Right. And being, being, no, I mean, there's only, there's only a limit to what you, we can't multitask. You can't

connect with your friends and have a happy hour at 9 a.m. and then expect to practice for, for an hour. Well, we did try that. We tried it a couple times, but it was a good time. We were not as successful with some parts. We didn't get anything done. Right. All right. Let's move on. to John's question. I had a teacher that wrote out fingerings, chords, changes by number. 3-5, flat-7-9, etc.

I've only heard someone reference this once during your podcast. Specific teaching style for school? Yeah, so we talk about that. Like, what's the third, fifth, seventh? I think that's what you mean. And then even amongst changes, you know, here's the one, the four,

three, flat, three, flat six, five. Yeah, that's how jazz musicians and actually a lot of cultures of musicians talk about changes. Two, four, one. I think that's what she meant. Oh. Amy says,

advice for piano people who can't reach a tenth for the left hand voicing that aren't muddy when playing solo. Roll the 10th? Yes. Use a touch of pedal.

Yes. Also, Amy, thirds, and don't even worry about that top note. It's also an option. Exactly. And also,

this is one of those things that I, like, think about it with the growth mindset because sometimes, you know, being able to, like for me,

there's a bunch of them that I can't reach. I mean, I can kind of reach them all if I have to, but there's only like half of them or whatever that I'm really comfortable with of the majors and they will use. But what that helps is like I have to be creative.

So like think about different ways. You know, to, and this is not the most creative stuff I'm doing right now to tell you. But there is a lot like any kind of problem or or, what would you call it? Not a problem. Just like a physical abnormality. No, no, I guess it's not that either.

No, it's just, you know, anything that you can't do or that's a challenge. Right. There's always a solution. There's always a lot of times we think about the simplest solution. It was like, I got to grow my hand bigger, whatever. That's not going to happen. So it's like how do you not only overcome that?

The growth mindset is like I want to be able to do stuff better because it's kind of like we all knew the, you know, the guy growing up in high school who was like six foot eight. And since he was little, I mean, by the time he got to high school, he was six foot eight. You know, he's little. Everybody's like, oh, you should play basketball. And like he never really had a passion for it. But he was always on the team. And then he was always really good because he would just stand there. And then once the other kids got a little big.

He's not an athlete. Yeah, he's not really an athlete. He has no passion for the game, so he never grew, no pun intended, beyond that. So that's sort of like just being able to stretch does not give you that mindset where you're going to be creative and come up with some stuff.

Well, don't you think also, like part of the reason why you and Amy, you should think about it like this way too, you can frame this as, you know, you don't have hands like Vladimir Horowitz and really nobody does. But what you're going to have to do if you want to try to get something close, close to a 10th is going to make for your unique sound.

Like if you have to roll, then you're going to, you know, you spend time doing that. Eventually, you're not going to be trying to sound like Art Tatum, who can just effortlessly hit any 10th or 11th on the piano. You're going to sound like Amy, who has this really cool technique for grabbing notes a 10th above. Like, and then people are going to start copying what you do because it's different. Like you don't just have that Art Tatum thing, right? You have that Amy thing now.

And that's, I think when we think, about our limitations or even just who we are and what our strengths are, I think leaning into those and even leaning into our weaknesses and like you said, just being like, you know, I just, I have a passion for this. I'm going to make it happen by hook or crook and then it's going to be my thing, right? However I do it, however I do it. So just make it happen. Make it happen. Cool. Okay, so we had actually a nice little issue came up earlier and then some folks actually sort of answered this. But I'm a singer. Is it a crime to transpose standards to a key that fits my voice,

accompanied with piano only, so do not bother the non-C instruments. Okay, I think FB, you're being way too deferential to these dumb musicians. Yeah, for real. I mean, not that singers aren't musicians. I should say dumb non-vocalists. In that, no, of course, it's definitely not a crime. And then somebody did already answer. It's like, no, the musicians need to adjust around the singer.

So the whole thing with this is like it always comes back to, think kind of first principles on this. Like what is going to sound the best? Like so much of this stuff becomes so much easier. And I hear musicians arguing about this on the bandstand or not, should we do this? Should we do that? No, you got to do my.

Like there's not enough people saying what is going to be the best total package, total sound for the audience. Like if you're playing solo piano, if you're doing solo vocals or if you're solo flute, if you're playing by yourself, it's all up to you. You have to still define different parts of the musicality. But it's the same basic.

question that you're trying to answer, which is like, what is the most edifying performance? And this is not about like, how do I channel, how, you know, you look at the audience like, oh, it's Kenny G fans. So let's play songbird. No. And I'm not saying that, but I'm saying like, doesn't have to have Kenny G fans for me to want to play songbird, buddy. Well, but I'm just saying, like, it's not about pandering to the audience. Big shout out to Kenny G. Yeah. But what I mean is like, you have to have a collective artistic vision. And when you have a vocalist, when you're lucky enough to have a vocalist, as part of that. that. Like, you want to take advantage of that part. Just like when you have piano, you're taking

advantage of what we bring to the table. You know, every instrument's like, how do you combine these things for it to come out sounding great to the audience? Like, that's the only question you have to answer. So for the vocalist to be in the right, the best range. Now, this may not be the best key for, that the vocalist thinks they can sing it in. It has to be in their range, but sometimes there's those things, and this is a very nuanced thing. I don't know a huge amount about, but I have gone through this and tested it by year where you're finding depending on that song and where your voice breaks where it works the best with different phrases and high points so that's another discussion especially things like great american songbook standards you know those were so meticulously

written those melodies and there every note of the melody has a purpose and where it peaks and where it where it valleys has a purpose and so you have to defer to the singer's vocal range for that because they have strong parts of their voice, stronger parts of the voice than others, and they're going to want to put those important notes towards the end of the tune on strong parts and that should not be dictated by the fact that the pianist can't play in E major.

Yeah. Like you have to, and as instrumentalists, it's our responsibility to be able to do that. The person who said, the band has to adjust to the singer's key, not the other way around, then says, but you should probably have the music ready in that key for everyone if it's an odd key.

I kind of disagree with that. I think you need to expect, and we should expect, our instrumentalists to be able to play in all 12 keys. I mean, if you want to make sure that it's solid, yes, you know, have charts or whatever. I don't think, though, that... I don't know. I mean, I think what she's saying is just if you're... If you have special arrangements, maybe, but I don't know.

Well, it depends on the level. Like, there's not, I mean, you're talking the very, very top level that can play. See, this is, ladies and gentlemen, Adam Manus, only deals at the high level because not everyone's around musician. that can do that. And you don't want it to turn into a thing where it's like, you know, round midnight,

A minor, in three, one. Come on, you're musicians, you got to do it. You know, you don't want to be that singer. So, yeah,

if there's a special arrangement, and if it's a tune that is typically sung in one key, say, for a female vocalist or male vocalist, and you're going to really go into a very possibly difficult area.

Now, if you're coming with the Adam Manus trio or the Peter Martin trio, or anybody who's saying, like, I'm a player, then absolutely everyone should be able to play these songs in the different keys. If it's a sort of, you know, Great American Songbook, Jazz Standard, these kinds of things.

And I think that, you know, we've all been in those situations. But I think there's also, it's a nuance and there has to be a little give and take. But absolutely, the first principle on this is that the song is done in what's going to sound best for the vocals. Because the vocalists cannot change their instrument.

The vocalist instrument, is their voice. Yeah. Like we have the piano. We can play in every key. And so for us to be like, well, we can say it's easier for us in this one key, but we can't say that the piano is going to sound better in that key. No, for sure.

Because we're not even playing the melody. The vocalist is singing the melody. That's right. If we're doing everything, then we can say, what does it feel best? What does it sound best just for us? But back to the chart thing, don't you think that, what do you think about this? So sometimes I notice if I give charts to people on weird with weird keys. Yeah.

I don't know if I do. I do sometimes. But mostly it's like with my trio, I have a couple of pop tunes I play that are actually really, really simple. I have charts on them, and I've done both, where I just start playing them.

And I expect the bass player to figure it out. Yeah. And then I, or I give them the chart, which is like eight bars long. You know, it's nothing, whatever. I've noticed, though, that a lot of bass players, if I give them the chart,

they're just noses in the chart, even though it's the same same eight chords over and over again. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. If I just play, the first couple of course, is around are going to be a little rough.

That's right, right, right. But then we're going to have a better overall experience by the time we get to the end. I think so, yeah, yeah. And I think that that might be the sort of nuanced thing is like, are they going to be able to get through without the chart and be able to come around? But that depends on the players. It does. But for sure, you know, we see, everybody needs to get out of the chart as quick as they can.

But that's part of that whole kind of mindset of like, what's the creative side of Well, this is going to roll right into the next question. This is, again, from Jazz Gull. This is, girl, three. I've heard a lot of. has musicians say the best thing you can do for yourself is to put the real books away and not use them. Do you agree? Yes. In general, yes. I think the real book could be a great reference, but for sure, the faster you realize just what we were just saying, that I think for most of us,

it's easier to get your head out of the page to not use that part of your brain and to hear your way through a tune. And you might not be as accurate, but it will be more natural, more authentic, and you will learn more if that's your goal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know I'm no real book fan at all. So I would probably be even more so, more so for the inaccuracies of it, but also that, you know, your head being buried in it.

But it's just like anything. It's like how are you going to use it? It's a tool. I always go more towards despairingly, but I think with so many great quality transcriptions and, I mean, you know, the lead sheets that we put out here at Open Studio, just they're only in-house for members,

There's nothing like we're publishing or anything. These are just reference points for specific songs. But I think that the accuracy on those, I really stand behind those. Because if I do a lesson, like I did one last week on jazz piano method on ugly beauty, I don't even know if it's come out yet. I don't think it's come out yet.

But Thelonious Monk song. Like I've never seen a totally, I've seen a couple of transcriptions that are pretty good. But I've never seen a lead sheet that was 100% accurate. And it's not that. I mean, it is a little tricky, but it's just people are lazy. Willie Aiken's had a good one.

Oh, did it? He had a good sheet on that. Yeah. But it probably never made it to the internet. No, it literally was the same one since like 1979. Yeah, yeah. So I think that you have to keep that of mind.