You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - What Needs to Be Held Down in the Bass - #178

Episode Date: August 14, 2018

Today, Peter and Adam discuss some things they want to hear from a bass player, and some things they don't want to hear. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Maness. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you. Brought to you by Open Studio. I was going to say that, but I'm glad you did. I can now say it presented by Open Studio. Oh, am I jumping into much?

No, no, you're fine. That's good. That's good enough. We don't need to overkill it. Does somebody else present it? No, just Open Studio. That's us. Audio engineer, Eli Kofer.

Eli Koffer. What's up, Eli? Eli is not on mic, but he's manning the mics, and he's very close to us as part of the process. those of you that are joining us on YouTube, we're available there. We're, we are everywhere. I was going to say we're worldwide, but we were already worldwide. We're getting there. We're trying.

Big shout out to Canada, by the way. Our listenership in Canada is outsized based upon the population. It's not outsized based upon the geographic size of that country. That's a massive country. You ever flown over that country? Like end to end? Yeah, yeah. Big country. It's huge.

Canada's hip, though, man. Canada is hip. Things, you know, are going a little bit, I don't want to say downwards in the U.S. but it is a little bit. So we're looking at Canada. Man, I went to Montreal last year. That is a great city. You had a great trip. Good jazz scene, like solid food and art scene, really, really cool place. Yeah, good stuff. So speaking of Canada, I think this is a, we have a voice question we're going to address today from Canada. Cool. I may be making that up, but I think it's right. So let's take a listen.

Question is for anyone who's holding down the bass end of the band, whether it's actually a bass or a piano or guitar or whatever. what are you most looking for from the person covering the low end? Maybe it's three things the base chair has to do, four things you wish they wouldn't do or unnecessary or get in the way. Appreciate it again. We really like to show it's making a difference. Thanks. All right.

Man, thank you so much, Tim, for that question. That's a great question. Eastern Canada. Yeah. And I like he even gave us, you notice he said three, maybe three reasons and then four reasons. He already knows we're thinking seven. That's right.

But we may go a little bit even more freeform on this one, because I think that a little deep, a quick deep dive might be fun on this. Yeah, you know, last week we kind of did this with the drums, right? We kind of talked about what we really like in drummers that we play with and what we don't like in drummers. We could do this for bassists, but this does apply, I think, to pianists and even guitarists

when you're holding down the root end. I don't know. I mean, I think there are some basic principles that apply. Obviously, like, time is important. Yes. groove is super important. But then I think there is a simplicity to the sound of the root notes

or the bottom end of the band, especially with the bass player. You know, we've done some courses here at Open Studio with a couple of really great bass players, Chris McBride and Ruben Rogers. And both of them talk about the importance of sound production and then simplicity in playing. I think that's what gets overlooked.

It's so easy to overplay on that lower end. Whether you're a bassist or a bassist, or a pianist doing stuff. Right, yeah. And I always think about when, you know, as a pianist, when I'm put into that situation where I need to, and I love the way Tim put the question that bottom end. He didn't say bass player.

Right. And then, you know, obviously this often comes on the basis. But I think, you know, as a pianist, I'm looking towards emulating not necessarily the specific notes or way that a bass player plays them because it's a different instrument. And I think just trying to ape a bass a bass on the piano. ape their style is not necessarily the most effective.

But to get into some of this kind of more the function and the fundamental way that they hold it down, the way that a great bass player holds it down and then apply that to the piano or to the guitar or to the tuba. I mean, I mean, we really think about a lot of this comes out of, you know, early New Orleans music. A lot of time the bottom, as the question asked, you know, the bottom is the tuba. And still, I mean, like if you look at the way modern brass bands play in New Orleans or anywhere, where they're playing in that sort of a tradition, the base lays that foundation in a very functional way that is not necessarily like, stylistically like a bass player would do it.

Yeah. I'm sorry, the tuba lays it down. You know, or it could be an electric bass, it could be whatever. But like the great ones, I think, really adapt to their instrument, these sort of elements, you know, the simplicity, the harmonic base, of course, the groove and the time. And I always think about two things that are so important because whoever's holding down the bottom, everything is building up from that, from the standpoint of, you know, the harmonic and melodic flow. And that is foundation, you know, and very easy to visualize this if we think about a house, you know, how the foundation has to be strong if it's a raised foundation, if it's a stone, if it's a basement, whatever.

But that, no matter, whatever you're building above it, is only it's going to be as strong and as beautiful as the foundation allows it to be. and certainly people's playing at the bottom of the band are really good at that. I think supporting but also laying that base and then fundamental. So I think to your point of simplicity, when you're playing in a simple way, and that doesn't necessarily mean not a lot of notes. I mean, Christian McBride knows how to play very fundamentally and very simply but can get to a lot of notes,

but he's still got that functional foundational harmony happening and then at the right time breaking it down to the very simplistic things. Yeah, I mean, for his course that we have here on Open Studio, you and I both did some transcribing for that. And what I found amazing as I was transcribing, I think I did one of his lessons where he was playing a blues, or maybe it was the rhythm changes or something. It was something very standard harmony,

and I was not shocked, but I was a little surprised at how much he tends to stick to the root or the five, the fundamental of what's going on in the chord, but how great he makes those sound. And I was like, well, this is this man's genius right here and the genius of all great bass players is that they can make those fundamental tones that really lock in the harmony interesting.

They can vary them up in an artistic way and then they have this great taste when they want to throw in something a little more, it's at the right time. Yeah, absolutely. But everything feels locked down first time. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, what we talked about last week

when we talked about drummers in a similar way and one of us, or maybe both of us, noted the importance of a great drummer being able to mark the form in a really skillful and organic way. And I would say that for bassists as well, that's important. Maybe it's done a little bit differently, I think, because, you know, the drums, the way that they can mark the form and kind of control that is more obvious, you know, kind of more obtuse. whereas for the bass in terms of how the form lays within the harmony and that root movement

there the great bass player or the great pianist or whoever's going to be doing that holding it down that's the place to market and to define the architecture of the harmony of the harmonic form of the tune so like if there isn't a base there

I would say like what I try to do is when I'm playing piano if it's like a duo situation you're kind of trying to hold it all down is really think about the ways that the piano can do that same function So we don't have to necessarily go walk a baseline, but when do we go down to the roots? What is the very simple functional kind of harmony that we can add with that, maybe root with a shell plus one or something so that it's very clear, especially at those places in the form where it needs to be delineated?

Yeah. And, you know, I think the kind of answer to the question that we're asking with this whole episode starts with the two feel. To me, like it was interesting you brought up the two, but because as I'm, as I, I'm thinking about it, it's really the upright bass is one of the only instruments that can pull off the walking four feel. Right. You know, every other instrument, for some reason, doesn't have the attack or the punch that really makes that work like a bass does, like an upright bass does.

And every folk music around the world, almost every folk music around the, is based off some kind of two feel. Right. Where the bottom end hits these like one and three motions. Right. Some cultures it's two and four. But like, you know, there's this like, um, um, bigger movement that happens as the smaller movements happen up above it.

So I would advise, especially for pianists, if you don't have your two-feel game together, that's way more important than a walking four. Exactly. That is way way, for a bass player too, I think. Yep. I mean, that is where the foundation of the music really comes from. Yeah. And then the four, it's such an oddity.

Jazz is really one of the only music I can think of that has this like walking four beats on the base. Right, right. But it's based off the two. Exactly. It's still based off the two. And I think really only, I mean, I'll go into a, you know, solo piano into a walking bass line sometimes. But I always have this feeling of like, I wish this was a bass doing it, you know. And I feel pretty comfortable walking bass lines.

And I enjoy doing it. But I really do it more for practice and for thinking about riding for the bass or playing with bass players and stuff. I don't actually just like to do it that much. I like to have the walking four feel, even without a bass player, solo piano or duo, in which we play in a way like it's walking. not two-feel, but without even actually walking. And you can kind of simulate that. Yeah, of course, it's not like having the bass do it. But it's the same thing like with the drums

when you're kind of imagining, tipping, going to that ride symbol, that nice medium kind of feel. And I think that, you know, some really interesting things can happen when you don't try to imitate the thing, but you try to hear it and add a little bit that's appropriate to your instrument that gives it that solid foundation.

But think about, too, when you work on a two-feel, which I work on in my solo piano playing all the time, Think about what you get from that. You really get a great understanding of the movements in between the big, you know, landmarks of a tune that you're doing, right? Like you really have to, you know, we talk about connecting the dots. It can get easy, especially as a pianist where we are always thinking about extensions or whatever. It can be easy to get off the dots. Yes, yes.

You know, but if you have that two feel and you start connecting those dots, it becomes very clear. Yeah. What sounds good. Well, and one thing we haven't talked about, we should probably touch on a little bit too, is the, you know, we're talking about the foundation and building up from the base. I think it's very important for the, the bassist, whoever is playing the bottom end, also to find those times when it's appropriate to react in terms of, you know, the melodic movement of that, you know, baseline or root movement based upon what everybody else is doing.

Right. And so this is another thing that great bass players do is like, yeah, they're laying it down. They're hitting the roots at the right place. But then depending on where the solo is going or where the melody or could be comping, could be something with the drums or whatever, then they start to make a choice to leave the root or play the root at a different bead or going into four versus two and all those things.

Pedal tones. Pedal tones. Yeah, go to five. Yeah, and it becomes such a great interactive thing. So I think the great bass players have such a great ability to slide between those two worlds. And then hit that middle ground, which is very exciting when you're not just laying it down

where everyone's solid on top. And you're not, totally interacting with everything they do, like a two-way conversation. Yeah. But you're in the middle where you're doing both. I mean, that's a really exciting space where a lot of great bass players live. That's high-level stuff. High-level.

For sure, yeah. Great A. That's seven-star. That's seven-star. That's really good stuff, actually. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm just thinking, you know, one thing that you often hear pianists, again, we've been really lucky to be around, like Rubin Rogers talking about his concept on things like this.

But kind of going back to that two-feel, you know, what I remember Ruben specifically talking about is sound production and how important it is on things like the two feel. Yeah. And how he's not, you know, as pianists, we might think of a two feel as like, bum,

bomb, bomb, bum. But Rubin was talking about really having these long, dumb, dong. Yeah, like a long half note, right? Yeah, like what's happening, not just when you're attacking the note. Right.

Or waiting for the next one, what's occurring, which is a great concept. Well, we think of it maybe like it's short. Like it's don't. Yeah. It's not. It's this long, beautiful note that really sustains underneath. We were thinking corny, and then Ruben got us thinking a little hip is what you're saying.

Yeah, well, that's because he's a hip, hip, hip bass player. We are not. Right. But you know, you might think that it's not these long notes, but it really is these long sustained notes that are beautiful and don't run together, but have, you know, more sustained than you might think. Yeah, and I'm just remembering now Rubin does a thing, especially at a little slower two feel where he'll, he's definitely thinking about,

between the spaces because he'll like slide up sometimes after he plays a note kind of at the right time where it's not just a stationary thing and you got to have some length to your tone to even be able to you know to do that that's right so something to consider you know as as a bass player but also a pianist listening that want to get a good you know rooted two feel going yeah listen to bass players that do this really well listen to guys like Rubin and like Christian yeah Ron Carter Ron Carter oh man Ray Brown talk about sustained chambers those are some good bases yeah yeah I mean, those guys are older, but they're really good.

Ben Williams. He was in here. Ben Williams is in here. He's a good young bass player that's got some great sound, great feel. Totally. Is there anything else that we need to make sure to hit on as far as like? You know, we're doing the, I was just taking a look here as we were talking, doing a little multitasking, but just at the end. Are you texting me right now?

I'm not texting you because you're sitting in front of me. But we have YouTube rolling, and we got a really good response. I don't know if you, have you ever been to our YouTube page? No. Oh, okay. I'll send you a link, though. I'll text it to you in a second. We, but now I'm trying to, trying to see exactly, did we do every episode last week on YouTube?

Yeah, man. Man, this is incredible. We're going to keep rolling on YouTube for a while. Okay, so like we had, oh look, see, I'm playing it right there. That's right. So we did, we have obviously the visuals, but it's the same thing as with the podcast. And I was just looking because we got some really nice comments. But I can't seem to see him right now on my phone.

Got to score all the way down. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, dang. I never do that. Yeah, man. So we got a comment, and this is just random on the first one. I saw from Richard Pee, Richard Poinand.

Thank you. Great tips to keep moving forward when time is constrained. Number eight, listen to a podcast. Ha, ha, ha. Okay, that was good. That, I remember I liked on. That is good one. That is good.

Because that was, you'll hear it's seven things to practice when your time is limited. Number eight, listen to the podcast. Very funny. So, yeah, check us on YouTube. Check us on iTunes. Stitcher. Stitcher. You know what?

We're going to up our Stitcher game soon. We don't even have a Stitcher game. No, no, but I was just looking like our, Our friends down the street, big shout out to RGGEDU, by the way. What? Was that a word? RGGEDU. RGGG.

Yeah, RGGG. But their website is RGGGEDU.com. Anybody who's into photography, videography, check them out. They're incredible. They're our neighbors. They're responsible from some of our latest beautiful promo videos and the Diane Reeves course. They shot the Diane Reeves course. They were awesome.

They're right down the street. But they, I noticed, they have a great podcast, too. Big shout out to their podcast where they talk to photographers. Seven-star podcasts? You know what? I didn't want to say it was, but I've only listened to a few episodes. It kind of sounds like. But most importantly, they're on Stitcher.

Stitcher? Yeah. So we're going to go down, we're going to go find out how to get on. I'm going to get a referral from them to get on Stitcher. Game Changer? Game Changer? Possibly. All right.

We've got to find out what it is. And you can always go to you'll hear it.com. You can ask this question. You can just pop in and say hello. You can leave us a speak pipe. a speak pipe, which is a voicemail. But we like to have our own words for things. Well, we featured one today from Tim.

That's right. And again, brought to you by Open Studio. Is there anything I'm leaving out? We got YouTube. We got... Happy summer. Happy summer. Happy summer.

We'll see you tomorrow. That's right. You'll hear it.