You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Who Should I Listen to for a Better Feel?

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Peter and Adam answer a question on which musicians we should emulate for a good time feel.* Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipe at https://link.youllhearit.com/speakpipe* Support the pod by spreading the word with the link openstudiojazz.link/yhi* Learn more about Open Studio Pro: openstudiojazz.com/proInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Adam. Hey, Pete. I think we're out of sync. Out of a little. We need to listen. Our timing isn't. Our time is. We should probably listen.

Spock pipe. Spike. Spike. Okay. All right. Go. I'm Adam Manis. I'm Peter Martin.

You listen to the you'll hear podcast. Music advice and inspiration coming at you. We are loopy, my friend. We are getting loopy here in the pod suite. Well, we've recorded like 17 episodes. Well, it feels like it. No, it hasn't. How many has it been?

Three. It's been three. Yeah. Now, these are when like the day. can go like it can really go off the rails or this could be maybe our best episode ever yeah well you know what when things are about to go off the rails we've been known to focus in to zone in to center ourselves yeah to use the very notes and inspiration from the jazz masters as the mana for our brains if you will well and that's kind of what we're talking about today we've got a speak pipe a voice mail from john

what's a speak pipe well a speak pipe is is a question that our dear listeners can ask us all you have to do is go to you'll hear it dot com there's a little uh button you put you there just to leave us your question. And that's a speak pipe and that's what John did and he asked a very important question here. Well, let's let John elucidate us with his questionione. Elucinate? Alucidate. I don't know.

Theater and Adam, it's John from Ohio. I hope you guys are both doing well. My question for the speak pipe is, are there particular players that you like to invite young musicians to listen to as they're developing their time feel? And I don't just mean

swing, although yeah, I do mean, subdivision the eighth note, but I also mean how do they place their lines with the swing groove? Are there musicians who play a little behind the beat, a little on top of the beat, who have a particular feel when they're playing double-time lines? It's just something I've been thinking a lot about recently and trying to find great examples of musicians who really swing in these different situations and maybe even have their own unique feel that students can listen to and try to emulate. So I hope that's something worth thinking about.

Thanks so much for all you guys do. Always enjoy the podcast. Take care. That's a great question, John. And yeah, I like that you use the old speak pipe term. Always good. And I love the term. Are there any players that you invite young musicians to listen to?

Yeah. Excuse me, young musician, right this way, to listen to different fields. Right, right. I'm Willie Wonka. Welcome to my audio drone. You did it, Charlie. You've won.

You learned all of when Kelly's solo. It's Oscar Peterson. Yeah, no, this is good. And I like that part of the question was talking about, he mentioned unique feel. And that's true. Like, everybody has a unique feel. Yeah.

There's certain people we're going to probably talk about that we think are good. And he said emulate. And that's exactly what it is. You want to emulate in your practice, in your analysis, in your general, you know, rhythmic ear training, which is what, you know, checking out these grooves is all about. Don't get thrown off by like,

oh, well, Oscar Peterson has a unique feel, so I'll never be able to do that, or I don't want to sound like him. But, first of all, of course, you want to sound like it. But don't worry, no matter how much of this feel that you emulate, you're not going to sound just like him. Give a shot. Yeah, and if you do, well, then prove us wrong.

That's even better. Nothing wrong with that. No, but you take these, and it's really about the process of learning how different musicians, how different players, how different ensembles often get to their unique feel. Totally.

And it's the same thing of like just transcribing for more traditional ear training intervals and different types of chords or whatever. We are training our ears to be able to hear and to feel and then to emulate certain musicians and ensembles very unique feel. And that's what groove is. And that's what starts to inform what we want our group to be. And really what it does is it starts to give us the skills and, you know, the tools in our tools.

toolbox to bring out how we want to interpret a group, how we want to place our nose without having to think about, oh, let me play a little bit behind the beat because I heard Oscar Peterson do that or because I heard Robert Glass would do that or whatever. You can learn to do that and identify, but then when you go to play, like I never think about it. I mean, I know that I do play on top of the beat because people told me that. But I don't always do that because that's not always part of the story I wanted to. Totally. I've got the different skills and hopefully I'll be able to throw those.

So I would challenge anyone to say that like this person always plays, well, of course, any millennial that plays behind the beat. We do know that. Okay, sorry, that was bad. No, but I mean, there are certain stylistic things that are part of a sound, which is great too. But again, it's all about sort of telling a story. So I love this idea of like, let's check out these very unique feels

and all great players have a unique feel. Let's emulate them, but then let's just let that become part of who we are. Yeah, I kind of, it's so funny you mention that because I was kind of thinking the same thing. Like, I wouldn't, to a young player, I wouldn't actually point out if someone is like in front of the beat or behind the beat. kind of player because it's really not

you can take like a Majemal for instance right that's someone who you know will occasionally certainly lay things way back yeah right but that gets to be like dangerous territory if you're just emulating that but you're not really getting the entire picture of his feel and what

and what's happening around that that's not really like getting the feel of a Majima'amal you're just you're just laying back right it's the same thing if you try to emulate Chick Korea who you might think is like a little on top right that's not actually true. Like it's, he is sort of feels more on top. There's a lot of things going on there. It's not just that he's ahead of the beat. Yeah. Not it at all. It's actually kind of dynamics more than anything

that can kind of get that effect. Same thing. You know, you could say like, well, Oscar Peterson lays things back, but yeah, but also he is also on top on a lot of circumstances. Monk is on top more than you think, you know, because of his sound, you might think, oh, it's really laid back or whatever. No, it's actually not. Yeah. I agree with you. It's like every player kind of has both of those. There's like a spectrum of all of that. Yeah. Right. And most people are probably, especially the greats, are probably right down the middle more than you think they are. Yeah. But the overall

effect is sort of giving you this impression of its behind or in front of the beat. And like you said too, actually the band makes a huge difference. Like what's happening around them can make a huge difference to, you know, how they're feeling on top or behind or whatever. But more importantly, I would think, John, that the overall

feel is what you want to get listening for. Yeah, yeah. And I liked in John's question, too, that he said, Like, not just about within the swing feel. We think about, like, how do you learn how the spacing of the eighth note? I agree. Like, that's never been the most interesting part of it to me. Although, I think a little bit of, like, listening and analysis.

I always like to think about Clifford Brown as somebody that's really good to learn about feel from. Again, not that you have to phrase just like he did, but he had such a particular and peculiar kind of way. Absolutely. But then he was emulated a lot. So that became part of the vernacular, whatever. Totally. But that way of like swinging really hard, but without like having that boo, bad do, bad dude. He was very straight, not perfectly straight, of course, but he trended more with his eighth-no,

Bebop-ish lines more towards the straight than not. And I mean, I think there's a certain amount of influence on Miles Davis there. I don't know if Miles would have said that because I know there was a little, like everybody was, it wasn't really a rivalry with a clip around. Everybody was just like, wow. He was just so, such an amazing trumpeter and musician. and they were kind of in awe of them. But again, that doesn't mean, like, that's one sound.

But Red Garland is a player who had a little bit bouncyier. Yeah, a little more of a lilt. A little more of a lilt. And it works for, actually, they were playing kind of similar language. But, you know, it really is the personal technique of the musician. So I would say, if you're directing young musicians, listen to as many different people and get deep into, like, listen deeply to some of these, like, you know, to Clifford Brown,

to Dexter Gordon. Charlie Parker. Charlie Parker. Like, yeah. Monk. Early Miles. Sunny Rollins. People who have their own signature. Bud Powell.

Bud Powell has a very, you know, again, that's someone who you were like, is he always on top? Like, kind of. But it's really, it's more about how even his eighth note is than that. Yeah. His seems on top because of how incredibly even his technique is. Yeah. And I think, you know, where this stuff is placed within the music is super important. You know, of course, it's not just like stagger.

in athos, but it's like how the phrases are constructed. What beat do they start on? The upbeat, the syncopation, all those things, which you can really get organically from learning this stuff. But I would say it is important, like with all these folks that you listed and more, especially on your own instrument, to be able

to play, like, you should, you don't have to know every solo of anybody. You don't have to know any one solo in particular, I wouldn't say. But, I mean, maybe if you're a trumpet player, like, you should know Louis Armstrong West End, I mean, it's just so iconic. But you, you, You should be able to play a line with the feel like Lewis Armstrong,

with a feel like Clifford Brown. Right. Like you should have listened to it enough. I would say you never have to do that again, but you should be able, just the way a great jazz drummer can sit down and play like Papa Joe Jones or do an art Blakey shuffle. I mean, certain people can do it better than others, but you should be able to do that.

It shouldn't be like, no, I don't want to emulate. I don't want to copy that. No, you should be able to do it. You don't have to do it as like a trained monkey on the gig, but that should be part of your understanding of the music, I think. And you know what, John? Is that too dogmatic? No, not at all.

Okay. Well, you're a dogmatic guy. I'm a dogmatic guy. But you know what I was going to say, too, if you really want to get sort of a shortcut to a player's sense of rhythm and really understand their rhythmic language, you can also learn their compositions. Like, if you learn a Charlie Parker tune, you know, a lot of those tunes were came out of his improvisations. But even if they didn't, even if he sat down and meticulously wrote it out, that's still his rhythmic language, like put, you know, put down engraved forever. for everybody to play with. So, like, if you learn any of the Charlie Parker tunes,

that's his rhythmic language. I love monk tunes will tell you all you need to know about that era of syncopation and swing. Even if you learn, like, Herbie Hancock tunes, like Maiden Voyager Eye of the Hurricane, like simple tunes, that'll tell you Herbie Hancock's rhythmic vocabulary. Yeah, exactly. Ba-go-g-g-g-gun-gun-tuk-to-do-da-da.

That's a, like, even that phrase, Dukadukka is more modern than say like a Charlie Parker tune. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially coupled with what the notes that he's playing. Or if you learn, you know, like a Chick-Korea tune or a Keith Jarrett tune or even a more modern, you know, Branford Marsalis or Kenny Kirkland tune or something like that, you're going to get like kind of the fast track to their rhythmic vocabulary right away. I love that. Okay, I want to add one other thing that might be a little controversial, but I'm interested in your take on it, my dear friend.

Would that be something you might be interested in? Of course. Controversy, of course. Controversy. So I think learning different grooves and really getting inside of other fields. Like we could talk about Bosanova. We could talk about samba. We could talk about, have you ever heard of a record called Secrets by Mr. Herbie Hancock?

You know, we could talk about pop grooves, R.B. Gospel. Like learning some, you don't have to learn everyone tomorrow, but learning other grooves I found actually helped me start to understand. swing and starts to place it as no different than these other grooves. Yes, of course, it's like a different color, but it's still a color. And so the process of learning a groove and learning how, you know, like check out the group the meters. I always like to because like they were groove masters.

Totally. So like if you can learn how to groove a little bit like the meters, you're going to be able to swing better as well because they're in terms, even though they never are swinging necessarily, but they are swinging through these other grooves. So I think you shouldn't be limited to just emulating swing grooves or else. I don't know. Like, it's kind of like you've got to look at things to a different lens sometimes. And just like if you learn a tune in another key,

that actually informs things on the original key when you go. Like it expands your mind in a way that I think this similar thing with learning different grooves does as well. And this is fun. Rock grooves, shoe gaze groove. It does help you relax in your swing, which is what you want in your swing. If you're trying to swing too hard, Shappah-to-bit-de-da. Yeah.

See, look what happened. This is what happens. It's trying to swing too hard. And he just swung himself off that cliff. Boy, don't do that. I like doing that. Don't do that anybody. Yeah, don't do that.

Hey, Peter. Yeah. Thinking of swing and emulating the masters. You know, we are releasing. It might actually already be released by this point. The language of. the master's course. Language of the masters. Our first course together in several

years. It's true. Peter and I break down five solos on the blues. One by Witten Kelly, one by Philonious Monk, one by Oscar Peterson, one by Chick-Korea, and one by Herbert Hancock. Herbert? Herbie. We call him Herbie. Herbman. Herbie.

Herbie Hancock. We have all the transcriptions fully written out. I do 10 guided practice sessions long with it. That's a great way to learn some of these masters rhythmic vocabulary and how they swing and how they approach it. And actually, we talk quite a bit about it in the course itself. That's language of the masters. That's available for you now at open studio at jazz.com. It's also on your piano access pass. If you're already a member of Open Studio, this is going to be on your dashboard, if not today, in the next few hours. Absolutely. Herbert Jeffrey Hancock. Oh, Herbjiff. Herb Jeff. Herb Jeff. Yeah,

Language of the Masters is going to be awesome. It already is awesome. We had so much fun making it and I can't wait to share it with the world as we say all right well Peter yes another one in the bag you feeling good about Another one bites the dust Yeah

Is it in the bag? Is it in the bag? Is it in the bag or is it Should we go out on a song? I feel like we need to get our mojo back I feel like we should play a little bit I don't know what you want to do it okay I don't know we'd like to do that That's our normal song Oh you should do we should do in a little honor like a little

Oh