Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Best of Chris Voss, World's Top Negotiation Expert | YAPSnacks | Part 1

Episode Date: September 23, 2022

Negotiations don’t always take place in a conference room. A negotiation is simply a discussion where both parties come to an agreement, so we are negotiating all the time. Something as small as talking to family about who’s bringing what to Christmas dinner is a negotiation!  And negotiations are not entirely verbal. Whether we realize it or not, we are influencing every negotiation with how we present ourselves.  Through paying more attention to our body language, our word choice, and the way we frame information, we can intentionally evoke more information from others, which can help us establish trust and build stronger relationships!  This episode of YAP Snacks will feature several pieces of negotiating advice from Chris Voss, a former FBI hostage negotiator and CEO of The Black Swan Group, where he’s using his extensive career in international crisis mitigation and high-stakes negotiation situations to teach people how to better negotiate and refine their communication style.  Stay tuned to find out more about refining your communication style to get what you want in everyday negotiations!  Topics include: - Tone of voice - Mirroring - Emotional labeling - How to use the words ‘I’m sorry’ - What does the word ‘fair’ really mean? - Why you shouldn’t match people’s energy - Lying to gain influence - And other topics… Sponsored by -  Delta Air Lines - Visit delta.com/travelwell to learn more. Shopify - Go to shopify.com/profiting, for a FREE fourteen-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features JustWorks - Go to justworks.com More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Join Hala's LinkedIn Masterclass - yapmedia.io/course 

Hey everyone, you're listening to Yapsnacks, a series of bite-sized content hosted by me, Hala Taha. Today we're featuring the best of content from the handful of interviews that I've had with the one and only Chris Voss. We've recorded so much great Chris Voss wisdom that we split this episode into part one and part two, and you're listening to Part one right now. Chris is a former FBI hostage negotiator and the CEO of the Black Swan Gets. group where he uses his extensive career in international crisis mitigation and high-stakes negotiation situations to teach people how to better negotiate and refine their communication

styles. Chris has appeared on Yap many times and today we're going to recap his best tips and tricks to help rock your negotiations and gain more influence. Now Chris's expertise in human behavior comes from hostage situations and communicating with terrorists, but trust that his tactics can be used by everyone in everyday situations. Negotiations don't just take place in a conference room. A negotiation is simply a discussion where both parties come to an agreement. So we're actually negotiating all the time. Something as small as talking to family about who's bringing what to Christmas dinner is considered a negotiation. And negotiations are not entirely verbal. Whether we realize it or not, we're influencing everyday negotiations with how we present

ourselves. And so by paying more attention to our body language, our word choices, and the way we frame information, we can intentionally evoke more information from others, which can then help us establish trust and build stronger relationships. Let's kick off part one of this series by asking Chris about the negotiations we make in everyday life. The most dangerous negotiation is one you don't know you're in. And you're negotiating all the time. And the good thing about that is You know, you practice in small-stakes stuff to everyday conversations so you can do well in the formal conversations. And I'll give you a great example I came across recently, which we love to ask people when they say, I don't have a chance to practice negotiations. I say, well, are you in a negotiation when you're at Starbucks?

Well, there's a guy that started a website called Post Secrets. And he said, send me your secrets anonymously. Send them to me on a postcard or something like a postcard, but send him to me anonymously. So he gets an anonymous, brand new still in a rapper, Starbucks coffee cup as proof that it was from somebody at Starbucks. And the note said, I give decaf to people who are mean to me. So you're in a negotiation when you're at Starbucks. They might not be carrying you what you ordered. If you're a grumpy person and you think you're developing a tolerance, for caffeine. Maybe you're not developing a tolerance for caffeine. Maybe they're giving you

decath to get back at you. So practice your everyday interactions. Tied into that is the saying, never be mean to somebody who could hurt you by doing nothing. Well, if you practice being nice on a regular basis, you find that you get a lot more stuff. The hotel I'm in right now, I was just really nice when I checked in. When my assistant was calling for my reservation, she couldn't get a late checkout. When I checked in, I was just super nice, and they were happy to give me a late checkout. Those are the practice negotiations. And you get a lot more by being nice.

Everybody likes to be table pounding and name-calling and demanding, and that's really satisfying to, quote, win a negotiation and make the other side lose. But actually, long-term, that's bad. That's not good. You don't do great long-term. So if you practice being nice, you negotiate all the time. a lot of cool stuff. It's important to approach every conversation with the same level of respect and poise that

you would bring to a salary negotiation. Like Chris said, kindness will get you super far. Practice it everywhere, both in and out of the workplace. Now let's dive into how we can leverage our tone of voice to get what we want in any negotiation. Each one of the caveman types that I talked about before, the fight, flight, make friends. They get a natural tone. Now, I've kind of learned the tone I'm using now, which is a little bit of the analyst voice, which is a little bit of the late night FM DJ voice.

And it's a calming and soothing voice. It actually reaches in and hits your mirror neurons. I said before, a lot of this is based on neuroscience, not psychology, but neuroscience. And so the neuroscience is, if I hit your mirror neurons with a soothing voice, it actually triggers a chemical change in your brain in it. It soos you, it calms you down. It's a natural voice of the hostage negotiator, and that's why one of the crazy difference

between business negotiations and hostage negotiations are that hostage negotiations tend to be calmer. How is that possible that a terrorist is criminal, a kidnapper is calmer than a businessman? Well, the hostage negotiator used a late-night FM DJ voice on from the start, calm them down. It was an involuntary response. And if I can calm a terrorist down with that voice,

I can probably call it pretty much anybody down. That's the first voice. Now the assertive's voice, which is my natural tone that I had to learn to practice, and you can learn your way out of anything. You know, it's a direct and honest voice. I'm just telling you what I need. I'm just being honest. I'm just being direct and honest with you.

Well, when I fall into that direct and honest voice, and if you're a human being that thinks of yourself as simply as direct and honest, you know, I once had a colleague tell me that they said, Chris dealing with you is like getting hit in the face with a brick. That's probably not going to help me. You don't get what you want on a long-term basis by hitting people in a face with a brick. And the assertive's voice is the only voice that is really counterproductive all the time. I reach in, I hit your mirror neurons with assertion.

You feel attacked. You react angrily. It triggers the negative emotion of anger. and it's not emotions that are bad, it's negative emotions that are bad. So I trigger your anger emotion and there's an old saying, give a speech when you're angry and it'll be the best speech you ever regret. You're going to say things that in the moment you feel very self-righteous about it, and when you look back on them, they're just not going to help.

So the assertive is a type that you really got to be careful on how you come off to people. Now, the last type, which everybody likes, is you kind of. terminator's voice, and you just feel the warmth in their voice. And when someone smiles, you can feel it. They don't even have to be on a phone with you. You can feel the smile in their tone of voice, and that's what I'm doing now. And that hits the mirror neurons, and you feel good because chemicals are actually being released in your system that make you feel good. The dopamine, the serotonin, the stuff that gives you mental endurance,

stuff that makes you smarter. You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. If I can trigger you into a positive frame of mind, we're both smarter. We're probably going to make a better deal. So that positive voice, you know, the charming person, the likable person, you make more deals with people that you like. It's a powerful mercenaries tool. If you just want to get your way, you want to do it. If you love people, you want to do it because it's really good for relationships simultaneously. So smiling of people is a powerful way to negotiate. At Yap, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers. And I'm really picky when it comes to my employees. My team is

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This is a very popular concept. Let's hear what Chris has to say about mirroring another person with our words and how we can actually use that technique in practice. So if you want to be a black swan, if you want to learn a black swan method, one of the really cool techniques that we borrowed from hostage negotiation was something we call mirroring. Now, Black Swan's mirror is, it's not that body language thing, you know, where if you put your right hand to your chin, I put my right hand to my chin. That's not the Black Swan mirror.

Black Swan mirror is repeating the last one to three-ish words of what somebody's just said. And when you get that skill down, then yeah, you can move it around and pick out a specific one-to-three words that you want to have them expand. on. And it's really easy. It's so mechanistic, if you will. Some people don't like it because it seems too simple. It's a great skill for when you're caught off guard. Like if somebody just, what they've just said just kind of blows your mind. And the first time I really got a big difference in a mirror was negotiating a bank robber with hostages in Brooklyn. Guys on the other side of the table, principal bank robber. I didn't realize that at the time was, exhibiting all the characteristics of like a great CEO negotiator. He was so controlled

that when he first got on the phone with the PD's negotiator that was first up, I was second up, he literally told the PD negotiator that he was calmer than the police department negotiator was. So how did mirroring help me with this guy? We get his name, which he's not given to us, because he realizes it's hard to establish rapport with someone who doesn't give their name. We figure out who he is, we find out his van is outside, we get a voice ID on him from a neighbor.

They put me on the phone and they want me to brace this guy that we know who he is as quickly as I can. And I'm going to do it kind of gently so I say, hey, look, we got a van out here. We've found the owners of every one of them

except one van. And he said, well, we only have one van. I go, you only have one van. He goes, no, we have more than one vehicle. And I mirrored again. I said, you got more than one vehicle. And he said, you chase my driver away. I mirrored again.

I chase your driver away. Now, understand, I'm confused by everything he's saying to me at the moment. And each time I mirrored him, he loses a little more control. And then finally, when he says, we chase your driver away, his getaway driver had gotten away. We had no idea there was a third accomplice there. And that spontaneous admission led to the conviction of the driver. What's the point?

This mirror tool that you can use when you're completely off guard is likely to keep the other side talking. And if a controlled bank robber, control-freaked negotiator is going to make spontaneous. admissions, it'll work in all negotiations. And then the cool thing that I love about mirrors is maybe because it's so simple, we find, you know, the people that we coach, the high IQ and high EQ people love mirrors, love them. And maybe it's because they're so simple as to why they love those. Now, I'm neither high IQ nor high EQ.

So to me, it's one more tool. but the really people that really like concise, simple ways to steer conversations love mirrors. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Mirroring people's words can show that you're engaged and encourages the other party to continue revealing information because they appeal to the other party's emotional compass. Information and a negotiation is your ammo that helps you win the battle. Negotiations are often incorrectly viewed as a very logical process. But in reality, negotiation plays on people's emotions.

It's been proven that humans make decisions based on what we're feeling, not necessarily what we're thinking. Let's hear what else Chris has to say about the role of emotions and negotiations through a process called labeling. So you start out, you probably just label kind of what you feel, kind of what you're hearing right off the top of a conversation. You get real good at that with just practice. You get into a lift driver and a lift driver says, how are you today? and you can say, ah, it sounds like it's been a tough day.

Or you pick up on their affect, and they seem happy. And you go, you seem happy. You get your practicing by just labeling what's on the surface. And that's how you get started. Now, emotions are kind of crazy

in that if we label a positive, you sound happy, that increases a positive. If they're frustrated and you say you sound frustrated, the interesting thing is the labeling of a negative decreases it. It has the opposite effect.

So you get some practice in and you get used to hitting those emotions, which now you're clear in the way they feel understood. They want to cooperate with you. They're more collaborative because they instantly feel more understood. So it's a little bit of the karate kid wax on, wax off thing. You just start labeling people and just label whatever you hear. After a while, your ability to distinguish and understand what you're doing is really going to catch up to you fast. And that's how you get into people very. very quickly. Awesome. If I remember correctly, you also have to shut up and listen after you label. Is that correct? Yeah, because a good label, you got to let that baby sink in. You got to let it hit all the different parts of the amygdala. And a lot of people have real trouble with this because before, you know,

I talked about the accommodator type, you know, the make friends type. Their gut instinct for being silent is I'm signaling to you that I'm upset with you. and after a label, they're horrified that that's the signal they're sending off. And they have a heck of a hard time shutting up. But this is a critical time to really go silent and let your label sink in really well. My son is my chief operations. He likes to say, when you go silent, start counting thousands to yourself. You'll never get to three.

And why is not saying the word I and being indirect by using phrasing like it seems like or it sounds like important to remember when using labeling. Yeah, a lot of people learn labeling by saying like, well, what I'm hearing is, and a problem with the word I is it's a self-centereding word. And particularly when you're observing the other person's reactions and you're trying to make them feel attended to you, trying to make them feel heard. When you use the word I, you don't make them feel heard.

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That's why labeling what's on the surface is so impactful. It shows that you care and that you noticed. But there's no point in labeling if you don't back off and let the other person prove you right or wrong. You've got to stay silent. Just listen and let them reveal the validity of your label to you. One tip that Chris taught me to strengthen our labels is to say, I'm sorry before you label someone. I remember in your book you also mentioned saying that I'm sorry before Amir can be really impactful, especially when dealing with strong A-type personalities like yourself. Can you explain that hack to our listeners too? A lot of people say it's a bad thing to say.

Those aren't bad words. It's where you drop them that's really important. Again, I talked about catching people off guard in ways that triggers them that makes them more curious. You could do something wrong or do something potentially offensive and say, I'm sorry. That's the bad sequence. But if you say, I'm sorry before you do something, they might respond to negatively, or I'm sorry just before you're assertion, which am mirrors a little bit of assertion. It's a prompt.

It's provoking them to go on in a good way. If you say I'm sorry out of the blue, you'd actually get people's attention right away because they're like, what are you sorry about? Which means in that moment, they're really glued into what you have to say and their guard is down. Because to say, I'm sorry beforehand makes people feel powerful. They're like, oh, you know, I got a less power here. You know, this person is all worried about me. It's an emotional intelligence application of deference. And deference is very powerful because it helps you catch people off guard.

So to say I'm sorry up front is to warn people a little bit, to intrigue them a little bit, to get their attention and make them curious. And then when you drop something on them like a mirror or an assertion or a label, it's going to have a much deeper emotional impact exactly the way that you want. So I'm sorry is a great phrase if you just put it in the right place. Be careful when using the words I'm sorry in conversations because you don't want to seem overly apologetic. At the same time, saying you're sorry can add a great deal of intrigue and provoke interest in whatever you're about to talk about next. There's some other words that carry heavy meaning in negotiations, one of them being fair or the concept of fairness. Let's find out exactly what this F word means in a negotiation and how to approach that word when it comes up.

There's almost never a negotiation where the F-bomb fair doesn't come up. Because when people feel backed into a corner. It can be a very defensive, innocent, if you will, thing to say, because they're not sure they feel they're on the losing end and they'll say, I just want what's fair. I just want to be treated fairly. And it'll cause the other side to rethink themselves. Am I being unfair? I mean, it's an accusation in disguise. And a lot of people say it innocently because they don't know where to go. They're actually expressing a tremendous amount of vulnerability in that moment because if they could articulate specifically why they were being treated unfairly, if there were any external criteria, they'd point to them. And the first time I ever heard this,

a person and negotiation instructor, that's one of the best human beings that I've ever met. They're in the middle of selling their house and the housing market had dropped substantially. And this person said, well, we just want a fair offer. And the buyer raised their offer. Now, it's not the buyer. Fault the market drop, that was a market price for the house. And the seller felt victimized by the circumstances, and they toss us out. I remember thinking, wow, you know, she didn't mean to be manipulative. But it was an emotional, cheap shot, for lack of a better term, thrown out there very innocently. Now, flip side, you know, I just want what's fair.

I've given you a fair offer. that's so effective for the sharks and the cutthroats that they know if they're having trouble getting you to accept the offer. If they just say, we've given you a fair offer, it's going to cause you to question whether or not you're being fair or unfair. And so it comes up in a lot of other venues because it's such an effectively emotional manipulation tool. So if the word comes up, what does this mean for you as a takeaway? First of all, how does the Black Swan group teach people to do it? I'll start out by saying, if at any point in time you feel treated unfairly, let me know and we'll stop and we'll fix it. That's how the only way we deploy the word when we're coaching you.

What do we want you to know if you hear it on the other side? understand if somebody says they think they're being treated unfairly, whether they're a shark or whether they're just a decent person. At that point in time, they feel pretty defenseless. Now, you've got some great information that you need to be really careful with because when they feel defenseless is not the time to go in for the kill. When they feel defenseless is a particular time to show even more empathy and more understanding so that they feel comfortable with you being behind their defenses because they know that you're not going to hurt them. But in all cases, if somebody drops the F-bomb on you, they feel defenseless and just be careful with that information.

Hold tight, everyone. Let's take a quick break and hear from from our sponsors. When the word fair is used in a negotiation, it causes the other person to question their own levels of fairness. And this use of the word fair indicates vulnerability because it's an indicator of where someone's values lie. If you're in a salary negotiation with an employee and they tell you that they want fair compensation, that indicates that they don't believe that you're paying them what they deserve. But rather than jump to defense and counter their claim, you should approach the situation with more empathy and understanding, because like we said at the beginning of this episode, just being nice can help you in almost every situation. We've been talking a lot

about verbal cues in this episode, like saying I'm sorry or mirroring or labeling people's emotions and also tone of voice. But now let's talk about how to read someone's energy and why contrary to popular belief, it's not helpful to match people's energy. So if you stop and think and perceive even sort of added up. If they've got energy, the energy is really going to be a dead giveaway as to what they have in mind. You know, are they distracted?

Are they focused on you? Is there a good vibe? If they're distracted, they're not looking to make a deal or something's in the way. There are other pressures. They're probably not going to make the deal. You know, if they have an aggressive energy towards you, which a lot of people might misinterpret as being bad,

the good news is they're looking to make a deal. So aggression is a good thing from a counterpart in that it signals an intent to deal with you. So yeah, the energy is a really good thing. Now, the flip side of that is I don't believe in matching people's energy because that makes you the second mover. And when I was teaching negotiation to illustrate this point, you know, we used to play tic-tac-toe. And I'd say, what's wrong with tick-tac-toe? Do you want to be first? Do you want to be second?

If you go first and you know what you're doing, you can't lose. You can only win or tie. If you go second, and that's what's wrong with being a second mover, the best you could do is tie. That's why you want to go first and tick-tac-toe, because you want to win. And interestingly enough, chess is the same white. That's why there's an advantage to be white because white moves first.

So what does this have to do with energy? Your energy should always probably be positive. You've got a good natural positive energy. You know, there's some mechanisms. There's a new book out that I'm reading. It's not that new. It's new to me, anti-fragile by Nassim Nicholas Talib. We also wrote the Black Swan, which is the idea that inspired the name of my company.

But Talib talks about being anti-fragile, which means you don't just survive. from negative events, you grow. It makes you smarter. And he says, curiosity is an anti-fragile mindset. It's an energy. It's a demeanor. It's a way of being. Like, if you're curious, you're going to have positive energy.

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Terms apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Incorporated, licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. So, like, no matter what energy they are, come positive. come curious. Now, what's the best frame of mind that you want your opponent to be? Like, do you want, if they come in positive, is that always a good thing? Or could that also be something we should be weary of? You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. It helps you that your counterpart is positive also. So many of the negotiation strategies are designed to at least get them out of a

negative mindset. Because no one collaborates well in a negative mindset. Negative mindset, It's a downward spiral. So, yeah, I'm going to want my, I'm going to want my counterpart to be positive in their interactions with me. It's going to make them want to have a long-term prosperous relationship. I, you know, you know, you and I were talking about being on Clubhouse earlier. I interviewed Mark Cuban recently on a similar app. And Cuban is positive. You know, however, he's portrayed on Shark Tank.

Some people think he's a bully. But Cuban's positive and he wants to collaborate. Everything he does is about a great long-term relationship, which is how you make a lot of money. It's how a guy like Mark Cuban, who, when he started his company, slept on a floor or somebody's apartment, now he's a billionaire. Positivity is a great success move. So, yeah, be positive. Be curious. I love Chris's philosophy of be positive, be curious.

Everyone has a lesson to teach you. So if you enter a negotiation or conversation of any kind with that eagerness to learn, you'll not only find yourself advancing, but also elevating the energies of those around you. To wrap up, let's talk about another verbal negotiation strategy, namely lying. You know, people love to correct. So sporadically, you know, we teach people to say stuff wrong on purpose, to get corrected because the correctionist feels so good. it's almost addicting. It's ridiculous how good people feel when they correct. And then a secondary

consequence of that, it plays in your benefit also. Make the quote as attributed to Maya Angelou, people don't remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel. Well, if you get really closely guarded information from them, you don't want them to regret telling you. So if they corrected you when they gave you that close to guarded information. They remember how they feel when they said it. They felt great in the moment. And they're not going to regret sharing really intimate details with you because it felt so good while they were doing. Do you have an example of when you got somebody to correct themselves and how it helped you in a negotiation or just any sort of example to really drill this home with everybody tuning in? You know, one of those students when we were teaching

in Georgetown was in a midst of a real estate deal and a building was too good to be true. Like a cash cow, historic district, which meant it was a cash machine and it couldn't be knocked down and a historic district meant competing buildings couldn't be built. So it was a really unique building. And he couldn't understand why the building was up for sale. And he said, it seems like the owner just doesn't believe in a fundamental future. of the market. And the agent immediately shot back.

Now he's underwater on several other buildings. Now, that was closely held information that no agent should ever share. But it was a correction. And this guy didn't even know he was saying it wrong on purpose. He was just trying to figure it out. And so what's the possible? Why would a guy sell a cash cow?

Like, is it haunted? You know, what is going on here? And so he just said, It seems like it doesn't believe in the future fundamentals of the market. And the agent shot back immediately information that he should not have shared because it was a correction. It's just, you know, another company, two companies are at impasse. And the one company that we're coaching, they think they have a rough idea of who the problem is on the other side of the table. But they could only narrow it down to one or two pop.

possible people. So let's call him Tom and Bob. So at the table, they go, seems like Tom and Bob are against his deal. The counterpart said, no, it isn't Tom, it's Bob. Immediately threw his colleague under the bus. But since it was a correction, he did it without thinking about it. And didn't regret sharing the information because he was correcting the other side. And there you have it, Yap, fam, some of Chris Voss's best nuggets of wisdom from his time on Young and Profiting Podcast. Learning the ins and outs of human behavior can help you succeed in every area of your life. Like Chris said, you are constantly negotiating, and by approaching every negotiation with intentionality, you'll find yourself getting what you want more often. By approaching every conversation with positivity and curiosity,

you'll be making people feel important because you're enthusiastic and engaged. You can also employ some of the techniques that we learned today, like emotional labeling and mirroring, in order to connect with people on a more personal level. It shows that you care that you're paying attention to what they're saying and what they're feeling. Overall, yeah, fam, you always want to make people feel important when it comes to your negotiations. And don't forget that people also love to correct you when you say something wrong and they also enjoy feeling like you're taking a genuine interest in them. And when people feel important or understood, they're more likely to disclose the details, that information that's the ammo to help us win our negotiation battles. If you want to take a deep dive into the exciting world of human behavior, I highly encourage you to check out our YouTube and Spotify playlist.

We've got tons of human behavior content from people like Katie Milkman, Dr. Jack Schaefer, Mark Bowden, and so many others, Chase Hughes. We've got so much great human behavior content. So again, we've got playlist on Spotify and YouTube. And if you want to check out the full episodes with Chris Voss, I highly encourage you guys to do that. I interviewed him on Clubhouse back when Clubhouse was hot. That episode was called Yap Live, Negotiate like a boss with Chris Voss and Alex Carter. We actually won a Webby Award honorary for Best Live podcast for that episode. So again, that's Yap Live, Negotiate like a boss with Chris Voss and Alex Carter.

I also interviewed him for episode number 144, the art of science behind negotiation, as well as number 23, Negotiate Like a Boss with Chris Voss. That was one of our most all-time downloaded episodes ever at Young and Profiting. Thanks so much for listening to this week's Yap Snacks on the best. of Chris Voss content. I hope you learned some actionable advice that you're going to put into practice. You're only going to get better if you practice young and profitors. And without further ado, this is your host, Halitaha, signing off.

And stay tuned for part two.