Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Chris Voss: Advanced Negotiation | E144

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

Have you ever wondered what goes through the mind of a hostage negotiation expert? In this episode, we talk with Chris Voss, formally the FBI’s leading international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. Now he spends his time as an author, professor, CEO of the Black Swan Group, and teaching his Masterclass: Teaching the Art of Negotiation which shows others how to apply his learnings from international crises and high-stakes negotiations to the business world. Chris is regarded as one of the most influential negotiators of our time. He wrote the best-selling book, “Never Split the Difference,” which lays out actionable negotiation strategies and is known as the bible of negotiation. Chris joins us on YAP today to teach us how to negotiate as if our lives depended on it and become more persuasive in both our professional and personal lives. In today’s episode, Chris shares his knowledge with the YAP podcast. He tells us about his journey from FBI agent to hostage negotiation and what specific negotiation tactics he uses and why they have been so successful. Chris covers the reason why giving someone a chance to start with saying “no” can be more useful than getting them to start with saying “yes”. We learn about the neuroscience behind why tactical empathy is the best way to diffuse a situation and get someone to say the magic phrase, “that’s right!” Chris teaches his 7, 38, 55 body language method and tells us that people don’t remember what you said, they remember how they felt. If you are looking to learn how to negotiate your way through any situation, you don’t want to miss this episode! Chris is a past guest so check out episode #23! Here is a link to the past episode: https://youngandprofiting.com/23-negotiate-like-a-boss-with-christopher-voss/  Sponsored by -  Notion - Get up to $1,000 off Notion’s team plan by going to notion.com/startups  Indeed - Get a $75 credit at indeed.com/profiting  Jordan Harbinger - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations Ritual - Get 10% off during your first 3 months. Visit ritual.com/YAP to add Essential Protein today Athletic Greens - Visit athleticgreens.com/YAP and get FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Social Media: Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Timestamps: 00:55- How Chris Got Into Negotiation 03:21- Understanding Energy in Negotiations 08:10- Why We Need Tactical Empathy and Autonomy 17:55- “You’re Right” Vs. “That’s Right” 22:56- Examples of Tactical Empathy 31:15- The Power of No 35:05- Giving the Illusion of Control 37:00- Accusation Audits 41:06- 7/38/55 Rule of Body Language 51:44- Chris’ Advice for Sensitive Conversations 54:55- Chris’ Secret to Profiting in Life Mentioned in the Episode: Website: https://www.blackswanltd.com/our-team/chris-voss Book: Never Split the Difference https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805 Masterclass: https://www.masterclass.com/classes/chris-voss-teaches-the-art-of-negotiation  Subscribe to Chris’ Newsletter via Text: 33777, black swan method Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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minimums and participating scores. Taxes and other fee still apply. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world.

My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors.

Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity, had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button, because you'll love it here at Young & Profiting Podcast. This week on YAP, we're welcoming back Chris Voss, formerly the FBI's lead international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. These days, Chris spends his time as an author, professor, and CEO of the Black Swan Group. He's regarded as one of the most influential negotiators of our time, and he wrote the

best-selling book Never Split the Difference, known as the Bible of Negotiation. Chris joins us on Yap Today to teach us how to negotiate as if our lives depended on it, and how to become more persuasive in our professional and personal lives. Chris first joined me all the way back in episode number 23, negotiate like a boss with Christopher Voss, and I also did a YAP live with him not too long ago on Clubhouse with Alex Carter in that room really blew up. We must have had like 10,000 people in and out of that room.

It was such a blast to have them back on the show this time around, and it's always an honor to speak with such a credible expert like Chris. In today's episode, Chris details his journey from FBI agent to hostage negotiator, and will cover his negotiation tactics and detail. For example, we'll learn why starting with saying no in a negotiation can be more useful than starting with yes. And we'll uncover the neuroscience behind tactical empathy and why that's the best way to diffuse a situation.

We'll also get into body language, covering Chris's 738-55 body language method. And lastly, Chris will share examples of real life situations where these negotiation tactics can be used in your day-to-day life. Lastly, Chris will share examples of real life situations where these negotiation tactics can be used in your day-to-day life, so you can practice before a high-stake situation takes place. If you're looking to learn how to negotiate your way through any situation, you'll want to listen in closely to this episode, and even maybe rewind it a few times. Enjoy the show!

Hi Chris, welcome to young and profiting podcasts. Super excited to have you here today. I'm excited to be on. It's my pleasure. So you were back in episode number 23. It was called Negotiate like a boss. It was one of our YAP classics, one of the most downloaded episodes ever on this podcast. So very psyched to have you back on. I know my listeners love your stuff. I also had you on Clubhouse in a live and we replayed it on this podcast. So very psyched to have you back on. I know my listeners love your stuff. I also had you on Clubhouse in a live

and we replayed it on the podcast with Alex Carter who's the world's number one female negotiation expert. And you are the top male negotiation expert, I would say, in the world. So just so thankful to have you here today. Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. Okay, so for those of the people listening out there

who haven't heard episode number 23, we went into your career journey and how you got into no negotiation. So I'd love to hear that high level. How did you get into this space? I was an FBI agent and then I was on FBI SWOT and then I switched over to negotiation, hostage negotiation, sort of by accident as a result of a knee injury.

And thank God for moments like that that make your life go another direction because hostage negotiation was way more satisfying for me personally than whatever it was. And SWOT was a lot of fun. Yeah, it's so interesting that your diversion from SWAT was because of a knee injury. And that actually led you to a path where you became the top of your field. You probably took it in a way where you thought you were never going to take it. Did you ever think you were going to be an author? I, early on, I don't think I really thought about it that much. No, no, I didn't give this a lot of thought early on. I just figured I'd do it, you know, I'd just do it.

Yeah, would you say that you were naturally good at negotiation growing up? Like how did you know that being an FBI-hosted negotiator would be a good fit for you? Yeah, then, you know, first of all, it didn't sound that hard. You know, a lot of things that other people make look easier, don't sound hard, or have a lot of depth to them and require a lot of study and complicated. So I was just, I just want to try it, because the thing I always liked about crisis response was

decisions have to be made. You know, you can't procrastinate, you can't delay. As a quote from John F. Kennedy, a long time we were talking about the risks and costs of comfortable in action. Being much greater long term than that I'm completely paraphrasing him now. But any mistake now is not gonna cost you

as much as comfortable in actions going to cost you. So I liked it because you had to make decisions and then the negotiation stuff got started and I just love it. It spoke to me. I enjoyed it. Awesome. So you brought up negotiations. We'll start to dig really deep in episode number 23. We were pretty high level. We covered the basic ground. So I'm going to go super deep, We were pretty high level, we covered the basic ground. So I'm going to go super deep, ask you about examples, ask you for real life stories, scenarios, and really just go deep.

So let's start off with energy. This is something that we didn't talk about in the last podcast, and it's really important just understanding the energy of the room, understanding the energy of your opponent. What should we look for in terms of the energy of the people that we're trying to negotiate with, and then how do we use that information to be better at negotiation? So if you stop and think and perceive and sort of add it up, if they've got energy, the energy is really going to be a dead give way as to what they have in mind. You know, are they distracted? Are they focused on you?

Is there a good vibe? If they're distracted, then they're not looking to make a deal. Or something's in the way. There are other pressures. They're probably not going to make the deal. You know, if they have an aggressive energy towards you, which a lot of people might misinterpret as being bad, goodness is, they're looking to make a deal.

So aggression is a good thing from a counterpart in that it signals their intent to deal with you. So yeah, the energy is a really good thing. Now flip side of that is, I don't believe in matching people's energy because that makes you the second mover. And when I was teaching negotiation to illustrate this point, you know, we used to play Tick-Tack-Toe. And I'd say, what's wrong with Tick-Tack-Toe?

Do you want to be first? Do you want to be second? If you go first and you know what you're doing, you can't lose. You can only win or tie. If you go second, and that's what's wrong with being a second mover, the best you could do is tie. That's why you want to go first and tick-tick-tick-tow, because you want to win. And interestingly enough, chast is the same one. That's why there's an advantage to be white, because white moves first. So what does this have to do with energy? Your energy should always probably be positive.

You've got a good natural positive energy. There's some mechanisms. There's a new book out that I'm reading. It's not that new, it's new to me, anti-fragile. By, that same Nicholas Talib, who also wrote the Balax one, which is the idea that inspired the name of my company. But Talib talks about being anti-fragile,

which means you don't just survive from negative events, you grow, it makes you smarter. And he says curiosity is an anti-fragile mindset. It's an energy, it's a demeanor. It's a way of being. I could feel curious. You're going to have positive energy. If you're genuinely curious, you're going to bring out the best in both the other side and yourself. So that's why I say don't max their energy. You know, be positive, be genuinely curious. So like no matter what energy they are, come positive, come curious. Now, what's the best frame of mind that you want your opponent to be? Like, do you want, if they come in positive,

is that always a good thing? Or could that also be something we should be weary of? You're 31% smarter than a positive frame of mind. It helps you that your counterpart is positive also. So many of the negotiation strategies are designed to at least get them out of a negative mindset. Because no one collaborates well in a negative mindset. There's this negative mindset to downward spiral. So yeah, I'm going to want my counterpart to be positive in their interactions with me. It's gonna make them want to have a long-term, prosperous relationship. I, you know, you and I were talking about being on clubhouse

earlier, I interviewed Mark Cuban recently on a similar app. And Cuban is positive. You know, however, he's portrayed on Shark Tank. Some people think he's a bully. But Cuban's positive and he wants to collaborate. Everything he does is about a great long-term relationship, which is how you make a lot of money. It's how you got like Mark Cuban, who when he started his company, slept on a floor or

somebody's apartment, now he's a billionaire. Positivity is a great success move. So yeah, be positive, be curious. I totally agree. So you mentioned earlier, or just now, that you want to make sure that you're positive, you kind of diffuse the negativity. So let's talk about tactical empathy.

And let's talk about the reason why people need you to kind of diffuse the negative energy and what that does to the conversation. And also why people love to be autonomous. Like why is that important having autonomy? Talk to us about that. So we're naturally in a negative mindset, survival mode, you know, or default wiring if you

will. It's on the negative side. It's what kept the cavemen alive. You know, the optimistic caveman got eaten by the bear every time. The negative pessimistic caveman was like, I'm getting out of here. So that's a wiring that we're born with.

You wake up in the morning. You're in a naturally somewhat negative mode because it was necessary for survival. That's why it's really smart to have a gratitude exercise when you first get out of bed in the morning. It's like mental hygiene. The other, my counterpart, they're gonna be negative. I know that, because they're human.

I'm gonna throw some stuff out right up the bat to defuse it, not to make them positive, but to defuse the negative. There's a real big difference. And then I'm gonna sprinkle it in periodically. Like if I'm getting ready to make them positive, but to diffuse the negative. There's a real big difference. And then I'm going to sprinkle it in periodically. Like if I'm getting ready to ask you something, by definition, your caveman brain is going to say, ah, that's greedy. They're asking for too much. I know that.

I know that's how your wired is a human being. You can't help it. So the diffusing mechanism is I'm gonna say it's gonna seem greedy. And that not only diffuses, but it notculates it. Somebody asked me what it costs to hire my company or to hire me as a consultant. I'm gonna say more than you've ever spent in your life, more than you have. Because, first of all, my prices are high. And secondly, I don't want you to get caught off guard by the number.

So that's because of your natural negative wiring. So I'm going to let that sink in. And then you're going to decide whether or not you want to hear the number. Getting to your second point, which is autonomy, I need to preserve your autonomy. I need you to choose whether or not you want to hear the number. I don't need to sell you one or I won't need you to choose it that preserves your autonomy. Then when you're ready, I've diffused the negative, I preserved your autonomy. You're going to go, all right, how much is?

And then the other thing I know, that the number you imagine is going to be higher than a number that I throw out. So my number is actually going to seem like a relief. That's really smart. So let's dig deeper on tactical empathy because people get confused empathy with sympathy and even agreement. So talk to us about the difference between those three. Yeah, so let's talk about the mercenary's definition of empathy over the hostage negotiators.

Who's why I recently started collaborating with Harvard way back when? Because as a hostage negotiator, if I use empathy, it can't be sympathy. I mean, how could I use sympathy without Kaira? How are they going to believe I'm sympathetic to their cause? Isn't that? Or, you know, a Marxist guerrilla faction in Colombia, South America, someplace. They're not going to think I'm sympathetic. But how do I use empathy? Just demonstrating that, demonstrating that I understand where they're coming from. Or one of my favorite examples is, you know, we had a terrorism trial. We had a bunch of Muslim witnesses testifying voluntarily.

How did I get them to testify voluntarily? I'd sit down with them and I'd say, you believe that there's been a succession of the United States governments for the last 200 years that have been anti-Islamic. That's an empathy statement. There was no sympathy in there. There was a demonstration of understanding. There was no no agreement again to your point. I never said the US government was anti-Islamic. to your point. I never said the US government was anti-Islamic. I just said you believe this, experience. That's empathy. It's kind of that simple. So the FBI is running along wrong doing that. And then I read Bob Mnukin's book at Harvard. And he says exactly the same thing. Empathy is not agreement. Empathy is not like in the other side. It's just stating what their opinion is.

So all right, cool, I can use that with anybody. So if I could just explain this to my listeners, make sure they fully understand it. You're using tactical empathy to basically dismantle the elephant in the room, defuse the negativity, and make it so that everything's just out on the table. And they feel, it makes them feel more comfortable. Like what does it actually do to them? Yeah, and I love your phrase dismantle the elephant in the room versus denying that it's there or pretending that you love the elephant.

I love elephants. No, you don't like elephants. It's right there though. So it makes people feel validated. To feel understood is sort of this almost magical transformation that happens in people. And here's what it seems magical. When we were first working on the book, Tal Ra as a co-author said, I think when you demonstrated epiphany or empathy, it creates an epiphany in the other person. A realization like a, it's what people say, they say that's right

when you demonstrated empathy. That's right, that's how I feel. So, you know, I'm into neuroscience these days. I looked up epiphany on the web and it said when you experience an epiphany among the neurochemicals that are triggered internally or oxytocin. An oxytocin is a bonding drug. So when someone feels understood by me, I know they bond with me. And if I'm looking to make a deal and have a long-term relationship, I'm wanting you to bond with me because you're going to, then now you're going to collaborate. So that's, it's a really indirect route to save a lot of time.

And I could imagine it makes them feel safe and, and feel like it's okay to tell you information, which in a negotiation, it's all about getting as much information as possible. Exactly. That's right. What would you do? Yeah, and since you brought up, that's right. We're going to have to break that down to a poor listeners. So tell us about these magical words.

That's right. And why your right is actually not what you want to hear. And that's right is, once you hear those words, you know that you're on the right track. Yeah, that's right. So what people say when they feel completely understood or completely represented by the other side. And you know, this, this empathy moment,

the oxytocin moment is insane. As an example, it's why common ground is for grade C level negotiators, tactical empathy, that's right moments, that's for the A plus people. And I'll give you an example because regardless of what you think of Donald Trump, whether you're a supportive of them or against them, you're either perplexed or proud of the fact that his followers follow and come what may. Like he said early on in his presidency, I could shoot somebody on fifth avenue

and my supporters would still be behind me. Now what happened? They created this bond with them. Was it common ground? Well, when Trump first ran for president, you know, all the pundits said he'll never get elected because he's a New Yorker, he's a billionaire, he's a white male.

But the New Yorker and billionaire stuff means he has no common ground with the Republican base and they will never embrace him. Well, clearly they embraced him, despite sharing no common ground as people would normally define it. So, what is it? When he stood up and started talking about the stuff that he believed in, at some point in time, people listening to him said, that's right.

That's what I believe in. Trump would be up there and say, I hate the media. And all the Republicans that hate the media would go like, that's right, the media is an evil thing. He says, lame streamed media and vast majority of the Republican base believe that the media is biased. So he was saying things and people were saying, that's right, creating a bond to be envy. If you love Donald

Trump, you want to emulate what he did. If you hate Donald Trump, you're mad at what he did, because it's such a huge bond. And me and my team, you know, we think, you know, if Donald Trump doesn't tell you what oxytocin will do for you in terms of building relationships that you and not paying attention. And now a quick break from our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success. Instead, learn everything you need to know about running a business for free by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. The Millionaire University podcast is a

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It's like whether you love him or you hate him, he's got some amazing persuasive skills. Like he's incredible. We actually had Scott Adams on the show. He wrote a whole book about it. And we talked about it. It was super interesting. So let's talk about since we're on this this topic, your right versus that's right. Yeah, thanks for bringing that back up again.

Cause a lot of people want to think that your right is the same as that's right. And it's not, I mean, everybody's guilty of this. Everybody listen to your podcast. I know all of you listeners out there, sometime in the last week, somebody that you love or somebody that you have to keep the relationship with, has been hammering you about something you don't want to do.

And you can't get them to stop, and you look them in the eye, and you go, you're right. And they shut up, and they stop bothering you. Your right is a really polite way to get somebody that either yet love or you have to keep a relationship with, to leave you alone, to get them to stop talking. There's no shortage of wives who have realized that if they look at their husband, when he's giving her a hard time about something, and if she looks at him and says, you're right, he will stop bothering you. That's how effective it is. So people use it,

but the flip side of it is everybody does it and nobody thinks that it's being done to them. I got news for you. It's being done to you. And that's why you got to, you got to know the difference. And it's huge. The implication, if I can share a short story, but in my Tim Larkin runs a self-defense company out of Vegas. Good guy, name of his book is when violence is the answer. It's the answer. Like, he doesn't advocate. But he's like, there are moments in your life that the only thing that's gonna save you is violence. And so if that's true, you gotta know how to do it.

He's in a black belt hall of fame. He's a sweet art of a guy. Very low-key, dude. I mean to me, he says, you save me so much money. I'm like, cool. How did it happen? He had this whole team together in his company. He's laying out strategy.

He thinks he's putting everybody on the right track. He's got it going on. He's explaining. And one of the senior executives looks at him and says, Tim, you're right. And he just, it stopped some deadness tracks. And he says, holy cow. I am so far off base with my guys that they're politely asking me to shut

up. So he didn't get a fan that he's a smart dude. He took it for what it was worth. He stopped the meeting. He went and talked to each one of his guys and figured out what all the problems were and aligned everybody on the mission. And he said, if I had never read, never split the difference, I'd have thought it was a great meeting. I didn't

never realize that one of my guys was suddenly telling me, like Tim, we can't take it anymore. You're on the wrong track. I'd have thought, your right was a great response. He says, you saved me so much money. And I got my team back together understanding that that was assigned it. I was off track with them. It's so true. I feel like now and the sucky part is that you I've learned this before and then you forget about it because it's so natural and I feel like I've already learned this before but I hope that it sticks to everybody tuning in this time that when somebody says you're right it means that a they they don't want to hear what you're saying anymore. They want you to shut up. They're not taking your advice. They don't agree with you. But for that's right, I guess the one question

that I have is, is that really the only phrase that we need to look for or are there variations of that's right? You know, you can get variations of it in a team of Black Swan team. We've been trying to decide, is it like one star that's right? Is it five star? You know, you can hear that's it exactly. You're going to hear, you got it. You're going to hear various versions of it.

You know, you might hear that that's right. Really, if you, when they say it, what you're really going for is, if you can tell, when they say it, they felt a sense of relief or they felt a new idea come to them. Now any versions of it are good. Those are all good, but you may need an accumulation, you may be leaving something out, you may not quite have hit it exactly with them. Any version of it is a good version, as long as it's not your right. You're on the right track, you're communicating.

It's going back to that energy thing that we were just talking about. It's the energy that we're looking for. So if they're like, oh yeah, you're right, you're right, and they're kind of just moving the conversation along rather than like you feel like they're resonating with what you're saying. Yes, yeah, good point. And I like the way you put that. I like your focus on energy that makes a big difference.

Yeah. Okay, so I want to get into some real examples of this tactical empathy and I'm going to say a phrase about the way somebody's feeling in a situation. And then I'd love for you to say the sympathetic way that somebody could respond to that. And then the tactical empathy way that someone can respond to that. Okay. This is like a game show. It's like a game. Yes. This is like a negotiation game show with Chris Valls and Halle Tau. Okay. So let's say your opponent thinks you're an arrogant jerk based on your past hot-headed interactions. How do you diffuse that elephant in the room in a sympathetic way which is the wrong way and then in an empathetic way which is the right way?

A sympathetic way would probably be like, you know, I understand. My dad was an arrogant, hot-headed jerk and it was it was really hard for me to deal with him too. That would be like trying to share the experience. I understand is what people often say when they're trying to be sympathetic, but they wanna give you an example of their own experience and how they dealt with it, the unspoken part of it is I'm saying like, look, I got over it so it's time for you to get over it to, which is, you're trying to help people get over

stuff. So you know, you think on the suicide hotline way back when they said, if somebody's in quicksand, you don't help them by getting into the quicksand with them. And that's kind of what sympathy is. So, team me up again and I'll give you the tactical empathy. Your opponent thinks you're an arrogant jerk based on past, hot-headed interactions. You know, you probably feel like I'm an arrogant jerk. You probably feel like I don't listen to you. Then I fly off the handle.

You probably scare the saying anything to me at all, because you never know when I'm gonna blow up and it's painful for you. So then they feel like, oh, he understands me. It just makes them, I guess, feel more calm that that's acknowledged. Yeah, it starts to diffuse it. It makes me look honest, genuine, unafraid of my shortcomings.

You're not going to solve a problem unless you're aware of the problem. If I at least articulate it, at least I'm aware. I'm not giving you a sympathetic response, which is like, everybody deals with hot-headed people. It's just part of life. That doesn't show any awareness that maybe my approach might be counterproductive. So if I say, look, I probably seem like a hot-headed jerk. If I begin to demonstrate at least some awareness of it, you have an encouragement. I am never going to fix a problem that I won't even admit is a problem, you know, first step, right?

You know, the 12 step programs globally, whatever 12 step thing you're dealing with. The first step is recognition of the problem, at least recognition of the dynamic. Maybe I don't even want to say it's a problem. At least I recognize the dynamic. That's tremendously reassuring to the other side. And it doesn't imply that they're wrong in not reacting or they're off base or they're, you know, any of the negative things that simple recognition has a tendency to keep from ever getting on the table. Okay, one more. Let's say you're doing a group project, and two colleagues don't get along with each other, and they're refusing to work together. How would you defuse that with tactical empathy? So your answer might be like, look, you guys clearly see things differently.

You guys are clearly rubbing each other the wrong way. What are we trying to accomplish here? So I threw, I did two things with that. I threw out some understanding that wasn't pointing a finger at either person or not, I don't need them to feel the group is pointing a finger at them and I don't need a group to think that I'm pointing a finger I'm just calling out the dynamic, you know, I'm looking to dismantle the elephant in the room

So in a file one What question, which is a calibrated question your your questions if you ask them at all Probably out of start with what or how, because you're asking the question to create an effect. And then to get people to think. And he also got to throw correct tone of voice, because I could say, what are we trying to accomplish here? Which is accusatory. You know, my voice is saying, like, why don't you two idiots see the damage you're creating? But instead, I go, what are we trying to accomplish here?

You know, it's curious. It's trying to get people without feeling accused to take a look at their original reason for being in the room, original reason for being part of the group. And give them the opportunity to decide whether or not they want to stick to that original reason, which is again, that autonomy thing that you were talking about earlier, which people will die to preserve their autonomy. People will walk away, people will tank deals, there's all sorts of things that to other people that they do that it's clearly damaging

to them short-term and long-term just to preserve their autonomy. And that's specifically to preserve the ability to say no, right? So why is that so powerful? Why do people like to have the choice to say no? What's the psychology behind that? Again, I believe it's an autonomy issue. You know, one of the books that inspired me early on when I first started realizing

that Haasers and Go Shacing applied to business was a book called Start With No, Written Back in 2002 by a guy named Jim Camp. And he was a salesman. He had backgrounds in both a military and in sports coaching. These were working on a salesman. And he called it the right to veto. And his approach on start with no was in a sales process. He would say, look, I want you to know you can say no to the, no to me at any time, any moment in time, it's okay to say no, I will go away. I'm not trying to get you to say yes without you understanding that you

could say no at any moment. Cultivate the right to veto. And just preserving that right. Suddenly, he made more sales. Suddenly, he made more deals. He made more agreements. He made more than anybody else did. And that's where Jim said people will die

to preserve their autonomy. And I'm just a hostage to go, she said, I'm like, yeah, no kidding. We got people shooting themselves all the time just to avoid surrendering to the police. So this autonomy thing and a right to say no, the feeling that it's okay to say no, goes an awful long way in making people feel that you're not trying to bamboozle.

Yeah. So, for me, one of the least intuitive things about everything that you teach is the fact that we're not trying to get people to say yes. We're trying to get people to say no because of this thing we just talked about that people love to have the choice to say no and it makes them feel in control, right? So, so talk to us about how we can ask questions in a way where people will start with no and then agree with us and get to the yes, but they always start with saying no and then get to the yes. So, how do we ask questions like that?

Yeah, well, most of them, it's simple, but it's hard because it's so against our wiry. Like, I never say, have you got a few minutes to talk. I say, it's now bad time to talk. I never say, do you agree? I say, do you disagree? I never say, is this something that would work for you? I say, is this a ridiculous idea?

Are you against? I mean, the transformation from yesterday was actually really simple once it doesn't scare the hell out of you. But so many people, the first time out, are so afraid, because you're taught that, yes, is success. Which if you believe that it makes no by definition failure, people are horrified of the word. Once you

can cross that bridge, the rest of it is so easy. Why do you think people will tend to agree with you more and you'll get what you want when they actually say no first? Well people are conditioned from the age of two that when they say no, it makes them feel safe and protected. And it's when an adult says to a child, when a child does something wrong, no. So what does a child learn from that? Saying no is what adults do. Adults jobs to say no.

I once, and even I guess it was a guy who was a lieutenant on NYPD. He once told me a lieutenant's job was to say no. I didn't even care what the question was. He felt like he was doing his job when he said no. So it makes no sense, but people condition themselves over and over and over. Like Pavlov's dog for a famous psychological experiment. When I say no, I feel safe and in control.

So get somebody to say no because what the real issue is, you need to know what comes after the word, either yes or no. If I get you to say yes, you're gonna be reluctant to say anything else because you're gonna feel like you're digging yourself into a hole. If I say, which is, do you agree, you might wanna say yes, but here are the problems.

If I say, do you disagree? You're gonna be like, no, but I can't agree unless you fix these following problems. And now I've got to path forward. The really what I need to know is, I need you thinking, laying out problems for me and when you're feeling safe and secure, you can do that.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like an easy way to test this out is even in your email, because it might be hard to do it in person because it's hard to think of those things on the spot. But next time you're writing an email, instead of asking a question to get them to say, yes, try to ask them a question that will get them to say, no, and just use that as practice. Is there any other ways that we can practice this?

Because I feel like this one gem is so powerful if people just learned how to use it. Well, you know, and to get used to it and just change from, have you got a few minutes to talk to is now bad time to talk, like in all your conversations. It's small stakes practice for high stakes results. So in a little bit,

little bit of conversations, we're trying to get us on a regular basis. Just practice, get no instead and gain a feel and watch to see over and over again the different kind of reaction. It's so interesting. I love this topic. So let's talk about the illusion of control. How else can we give our opponent the illusion of control?

What are some other tactics? Well, the one-and-how questions. In a black swan method, we call calibrated questions. People love to be asked what to do. People love to be asked how to do something. You give them the illusion of control when you ask those questions. And negotiations not about control.

To guide someone, what in crisis intervention it called guided discovery. That's not control. Let's give him the other side a lot of latitude. But you kind of frame things with a what or our question. And the other side doesn't feel framed. They feel they would just ask what to do or how to do it. I mean, they feel in control. So it's given the other side the illusion of control that's usually through a what or a how-question. Could you give us an example? Well, you know, the famous,

how am I supposed to do that? As a way to say no. The other side doesn't feel attacked. What it really is is if you can't do something, because the implementation is really difficult, you say, how am I supposed to do that? Or you might say three times, how am I supposed to do that? Or you might say the third time, how am I supposed to do that?

Each one of those questions makes the other side think about the complexity of the problems, but they don't know that you made them think about it. They feel in control. They feel like you're asking for help. And that's the way you get it started. One more question on this general topic, accusations audits. Talk to us about that, how do we use them? What's your methodology there? As whole, accusations audit is doing an audit, if you will. Of all the negative things the other side might think about you. Now, what you think

about them, or what they might think about you. And it's really start with, you know, what's all the stuff that you're worried that you need to deny? Like, I don't want you to think I'm greedy. I don't want you to think I'm not listening. I don't want you to think I'm disrespectful. If you're in sales, every salesperson knows that there are enough not your fault, but there are enough, not your fault, but there are enough slimy sales people out there that sales has got a negative connotation to the word. You know, the car salesman, use car salesman. Everybody in sales understands it.

So you might wanna say, I don't want you to think I'm just another salesman, slick salesman. Whatever you might want to deny, you simply take the denial out and list that stuff out and put it at it, you may think. You probably think is even stronger. I'm sure you probably think that since I'm in sales,

I'm another fast talk in a hustling salesperson that doesn't care about you. It just wants to push you into a deal. I'm sure this is going to sound disrespectful. I'm sure this is going to sound like I don't understand. You're probably going to think this makes me look greedy. Empathy again, how do you say mind-see things, but just list and stuff out and advance and using it to the dismantle the elephant room or to keep the elephant from getting built in the first place.

That's the thing that most people are most afraid of. As they think you're going to speak a negativity into existence by calling it out. What's that stupid movie candy man? You say candy made five times boom, you know, the bad, the boogie man is there. What really happens is it creates this inoculating effect so much so that if you don't have a negative thought in your head, but I know you're going to react negatively to what I'm going to say. I will say this is going to sound harsh. And then I'll let you, I'll watch you to watch you brace yourself and you're going to give me some sort of a physical signal, if not verbal, to go ahead.

And this is actually now we realize this grounded in neuroscience because an emotional pain and a physical pain is almost exactly the same thing. And neuroscience is found that if I warn you pain is coming, there's going to be a window that you need to brace yourself. Like if I have to find a doctor and I'm gonna put a needle, I'm gonna say, this is gonna hurt. Somewhere between three and 20 seconds is probably the window.

And I need to watch you and you're gonna go like, all right, give it to me and it's bang, whatever that is. So if I say effectively, it's gonna sound harsh, which is what I have to say is gonna hurt. I'll let you brace yourself and you will appreciate the warning. And it will hurt less every time, every time. Hold tight everyone.

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Hey, Yap fam! As you may know, I've been a full-time entrepreneur for three years now. Yap media blew up so fast, it was really hard to keep everything under control, but things have settled a bit, and I'm really focused on revamping and improving our company culture. I have 16 employees, so it's a lot of people to try to rally and motivate, and I recently had bestselling author Kim Scott on the show. And after previewing her content in our conversation, I just knew I had to take her class on master class, tackle the hard conversations with Radical Cander to really absorb all she has

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it just cost you $10 a month. I have to say the most surprising thing about Masterclass since I started this incredible journey on the platform is the value. For the quality of classes, instructors, the platform itself is beautiful, the videos are super high quality, you can't beat it. Gain new skills and as little as 10 minutes on your phone, your computer, tablet, smart TV, and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go.

That way, I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now as the app listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com slash profiting. That's masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off an annual membership masterclass.com slash profiting. And it's very similar to what you just said about the pricing when you say, Hey, like it's, you're going to think it's high. Okay, tell me what the price is. And then like you said, they think they're expecting something way worse because you warned them. And so like you said, it probably relaxes them. And then they accept it more because they were expecting something way worse. Their imagination probably took them elsewhere. Exactly.

So let's talk about body language. You have a course on masterclass, which is super popular, and congratulations on that. And in that course, you touch on the 738-55 role when it comes to body language. Could you talk to us about this, because we haven't talked about it yet on any of our podcasts together? All right, well, basically, if you add those numbers up, you get 100. And the 38 stands for Tonervois,

and the 55 stands for body language which is kind of 93% of your communication is not the words. And as a lot of people that you know they want to argue whether those numbers are accurate they get crazy over it and that they're really the most important issues to regardless of how strong I think those numbers are. Ton of voice and body language is a lot more important than the words. I can say to you, wow, that was a smart remark. That's an insult. But if I would say to you, wow, that was a smart remark. That's an insult.

But if I would say to you, wow, how is a smart remark? That's a compliment. I didn't change a word. If that doesn't illustrate to you the difference in tone of voice, I don't change a single word and the meaning changes 180 degrees. So what about body language? Our director of business development is a young lady named David Johnson and she's just naturally an encouraging person. And she's told me, we were talking about this the other day. She knows that she's talking to somebody, she tilts her head to

the side and puts her eyebrows up. Like she's really interested. Like she's shocked at what people will share with her. And she'll just go really. And they will start laying out stuff to her of the struggles that they're dealing with and how much our help as a business could be for them. And she's almost the ston. She didn't even ask her questions. She just goes, really? And body language can be so encouraging. If you let it be, or conversely, it'll shut people down if you don't watch it. So it can be an enormously encouraging and enormously powerful thing to use in conjunction with your intent. I said there were two things about the 738, 55. The real issue is when body language and tone of voice do not match up with the words.

That's when you know you got a problem. It doesn't matter what the ratio is. It's when those things are not lining up, then you realize that what they're saying and what they're feeling at two different things. And then you dig into it. So could you give us an example of a common example of when people's what they say doesn't match their body language? If I'm trying to get an agreement from you,

and you go, OK, a lot of people would say, oh, they said, OK, we're good. But the way I said it, there's a lot of stuff crossed my mind. There's a lot of things that I'm worried about. If I go, okay. You think that deal's going through without a hitch. You or in for a rude surprise. How do you deal with that?

You just say, some are simple as what we call a label. You go like, I would just say okay, but it seemed like a lot of things crossed your mind when you did. It makes them feel safe sharing the things that went through their mind. So that would be an example of how their words would not match up with their tongue. And labeling basically just acknowledges what they're feeling and you try to get the information out of them. So you're basically just telling them what you perceive to be their feelings, how they're feeling? Yeah, exactly. And really since the first time that we talked, we use labels a lot more than questions to get information out of people. Now, you know, instead of saying like, what's on your

mind today? I may say, seems like there's stuff on your mind today. Now, the second way is most likely to get a lot more really good information out of you than the first way. Or what's stopping you guys from going through with this deal? Would switch to, seems like there's something stopping you guys from going through with this deal. And second one, that label is going to get a lot more information. Do you understand why just that small shift would change the way somebody reacts to it?

Like, what's the reasoning behind that? I think principally Danny Connellman who wrote the book, Thinking Fast and Slow, talked about slow in-depth thinking and fast reactionary thinking. And a what question will trigger you into slow in-depth thinking? Which means you're going to think a lot about the question. Which means the answer is going to be guarded and filtered.

And depending upon how much mental energy you have, you may just stop thinking about it because there's too much work. So questions cause those sorts of reactions. We're seen on a regular basis by just go seems like. For whatever reason, I know it will trigger your unvarnished thoughts to come out much more readily. So much so that we had a client say labels unlock the floodgates of truth talk. Because people got so much more candid and just, you know, think about what they're saying. They just start sharing it. And then wouldn't you say that, so I guess I'm putting two strategies together.

If you say seems like, and then you tell a lie so that they correct you, isn't that something powerful? Like people love to correct other people. So if you say like, seems like you came here not wanting to make a deal. When you know they came here wanting to make a deal or something like that and then they'll be like,

oh no, no, is that a good strategy to use? Yeah, well, clearly you've been doing your homework. You know, people love to correct. So sporadically, you know, we teach people to say stuff for all on purpose to get corrected because their correction is feels so good. It's almost addicting. It's ridiculous. How good people feel when they correct. And then a secondary consequence

of that that plays in your benefit also. Make the quote is attributed to my Angelo people don't remember what you said. They remember how you made a feel. Well, if you get really closely guarded information from them, you don't want them to regret telling you. So if they corrected you when they gave you that closely guarded information,

they remember how they feel when they said it. They felt great in the moment. And they're not gonna regret sharing really intimate details with you because it felt so good while they were doing. Do you have an example of when you got somebody to correct themselves and how it helped you in negotiation or just any sort of example to really drill this home with everybody tuning in? You know, one of those students when we were teaching at Georgetown was in a myth of a real estate deal and a building was too good to be true

like a cash cow historic district Which man it was it was a it was a cash machine and it couldn't be knocked down and a historic district meant competing buildings couldn't be built So it was a really unique building. And he couldn't understand why the building was up for sale. And he said, it seems like the owner just doesn't believe in the fundamental future of the market. And the agent immediately shot back,

now he's underwater on several other buildings. Now that was closely held information that no agent should ever share, but it was a correction. And this guy didn't even know he was saying it wrong on purpose. He was just trying to figure it out. And so what the, why would a guy sell a cash cow? Like is it haunted? You know, what is going on here? And so he just said, it seems like it isn't believe in a future fundamentals of the market and the agent shot back immediately information that he should not have shared because it was a correction. It's just, you know, another company, there are two companies that are atasse, and the one company that were coaching,

they think they have a rough idea of who the problem is on the other side of the table, but they could only narrow it down to one or two possible people. So let's call them Tom and Bob. So at the table, they go, it seems like Tom and Bob are against the steel. The counterpart said, no, it isn't Tom and Bob are against the steel. The counterpart said, no,

it isn't Tom and Bob. Immediately through his colleague under the bus. But since it was a correction, he did it without thinking about it. And it didn't regret sharing the information because he was correcting the other side. It's crazy. It's so interesting. This is like one of the most interesting things that I've heard you say before. It really has stuck with me. So let's talk about sensitive topics because there's lots of sensitive topics out there right now. I mean, anti-vax versus vax on Palestinian. So Palestine versus Israel is one that I feel very close to. There's Black Lives Matter issues. There's so many tough conversations going on right now. And I just wonder what advice do you have

to people who are holding these discussions? There's also workplace discussions about these topics where people are wanting to open up. How can we best have these sensitive conversations where we can leave having a meaningful conversation and not just everybody fighting and, you know, just slamming doors? Yeah, you know, take, take a counter intuitive approach and just say, look, before I disagree

with you, here's what I believe your point of view is. And start stating the other side's position. And you're not allowed to say your point of view until the other side says, that's right to you. say your point of view and to the other side says that's right to you. It's that simple. And I didn't know you were Palestinian. I love that revelation. I don't know if you, you know, we had a discussion on this on clubhouse, not that long ago, which I don't know if you're aware of, but, you know, we, it was going to be an Israeli Palestinian discussion and it was when the bombing was going on, you know, and Israel is not going to hack out of Gaza. And the social media arguments were just like my friend that set it up and Nicole Batum says, this is exhausting. She's Jewish and she's like, I'm trying to get people to talk about this and it's exhausting.

And so while we didn't have any breakthroughs that night, we also didn't have any arguments. And everybody that came to the table highly emotional for all of their reasons. And we're used to them to turn into shouting matches and name calling right away. The real benefit to that approach is and there was one young lady that came on and she couldn't articulate a single thing that was the Israeli point of view and she never got angry and at one of the things that I was really pleased about that was, you know, her inability to even state the other side's point of view at all, meant she was really embroiled in this emotionally.

And probably it had one screaming match after another that entire week. And in that conversation, her emotions did get out of control. So at least she wasn't worse off by having joined the conversation. And if that's all you can get sometimes, at least somebody's not worse off by the attempted demonstration at articulating the other side, that in and of itself is the reason to try it and see how far you can get. So now that I miss that conversation, I didn't know that you guys did that, but hopefully there's no next time, but maybe next time.

Make sure you know if we try. Yeah, I'm going to have to pay attention more. Okay, Chris, this was an amazing conversation. I do want to be respectful of your time. The last question I ask, oh my guess on Younger Profiting Podcast is what is your secret to profiting in life? And I was just thinking about it earlier today. I mean, probably two things. Yeah, it's a journey. Look, it's just a journey. Take your eyes off the destination and focus on a journey. And then whatever you're into,

there's gotta be something that's larger than you. I watched in a documentary yesterday on David Gephon. And David Gephon's a billionaire. But what I really, and I didn't know anything about the guy that he's a rich Hollywood guy. And my take was that he was really dedicated to the musicians and the artists that he served. And what he was dedicated to was the creation of their art.

And it was bigger than him. And it's sustainable. And I saw another documentary on Clive Davis. Conversely, Clive Davis dedicated to the music. Like he wanted to create his bigger thing was he wanted phenomenal music. And so if there's something you dedicated to that you're pursuing that's bigger than you,

it's going to life is going to be enormously rich rich and there are other riches besides money. Now money is a means, money is jet fuel. The other thing about Geffen, Geffen documentary was, he said, Davey, you got a billion dollars, are you happy? And he was like, wow, now doing my thing is what makes me happy. So, you know, that's how you become profitable. And as a last note, I'd like to get people in an opportunity to follow up with me if possible. But I'm really glad you asked that question

because there are larger things. Once you're into something larger than you, then life is gonna be enormously profitable. Of course, and where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? Yeah, you know, the easiest thing to do, this modest thing, is to subscribe to our newsletter. It's called The Edge, comes out on Tuesday mornings, simplest way to subscribe, sign up, text to sign up function.

The number you text to is 33, triple seven. That's 3, 3, 7, 7, 7, 7. The message you said is black swan method, three words, not case sensitive spaces between the words. The newsletters, a gateway to everything we do. It's free, but better than that, it's actionable and it's concise. And then it's the gateway. It really is. We get so many things that we can do to help you raise the level of your game and also look at life differently. Life's a lot more enjoyable when

negotiations no longer combat it, but it's collaborative. 100% negotiations are in every area of life, whether you know it or you don't know it, almost every interaction is a negotiation. So I'd highly recommend go signing up for his newsletter. I have his newsletter. It's great, super actionable. And then you have a lot of free resources, right? You have a lot of free resources on your website. A newsletter is really the gateway to the website, which if you want to go there is blackswannLTD.com.

And we got no shortage of free stuff for people because you, you know, you're going to kind of want to get your feed into you. You're going to want to find out where you are. At some point in time, we got some really sophisticated stuff. We would love to teach you. It's not going to do you any good until you've gone through the free material anyway. So yeah, go to the website, get the free stuff, indulge yourself, and you'll enjoy. Awesome.

So I'll put that number to text in the show notes guys so that you don't need to write it down. Just head over to the show notes so you guys can grab that number to text and what to text. Chris, Chris, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. Thank you. I love talking with you. You're up in your fun to talk to. What an amazing conversation with Chris. He never fails us. It's always a pleasure talking to him. And this was actually my third time interviewing him. And each time I learned some new negotiation tactics that I'll take with me forever. When I first interviewed him back in episode number 23, the main takeaway

I had from that episode was all about how to name your price. He told me that you should always give an odd number when you're trying to make a sale because odd numbers sound more thought out and people are less likely to negotiate when you give them an odd number. So you never want to just give them like an even easy number like it's a thousand dollars. You want to say my offer is nine nine seven because then they feel like it was a way more thought out process in terms of how you priced it and that you didn't just pick out a price out of mid-air. So that's the one thing that I learned from him in episode number 23 that I literally

used like every single day and it works. So if you like easy hacks like that and you want to know the basics of negotiation, go check out episode number 23. It was my first interview with Chris. And this time around, we had a more advanced conversation and I also had a lot of great takeaways. You know, many people believe that negotiation requires this rhetorical strength and an unwillingness to be flexible or give into your opponent's wishes. And there's a place for good-cott bad-cott when it comes to negotiation, but successful

negotiations require a high degree of sensitivity and emotional intelligence. The art of negotiation is really about understanding your adversaries' motives and emotions and building trust. So that was a huge aha moment for me in this interview that negotiation is not just this cut and dry when lose a fair and in fact research shows that there's no way to completely cut out emotion out of this haggling process that we call negotiation. So when it comes to negotiation, you always want to remember that emotions are not the obstacle. They are the solution. It's all about being empathetic, recognizing the other person's feelings and motivations,

and then getting them to feel safe with you, getting them to trust you. Ignoring their needs won't work in any negotiation. Your opponent will just become frustrated and uncooperative. To influence your counter parts emotions, you need to first identify them. You need to pick out your counter parts deeper, emotional drivers, and then use a tactic called labeling to bring them out into the open. So something related to this that we talked about in this interview was the difference between tactical empathy and sympathy. To recap, sympathy is feeling pity for someone else's misfortune and then trying to build

a bond off that pity. Tactical empathy, on the other hand, is understanding somebody else's feelings in order to get what you want from them. It sounds a little manipulative, but it's not. It's about recognizing the person's perspective and feelings and then vocalizing those perspectives and feelings so that they feel connected so that they feel like you're listening,

they feel understood, and then that helps you get what you want. Tactical empathy is not the same thing as sympathy. You're not just agreeing with them, you're just understanding them and then acknowledging those feelings by vocalizing those feelings. Tactical empathy is designed to build good faith and give your negotiation partner the illusion of control. That illusion of control is so important because people like to make decisions that they're in control over. Tactical empathy uses trust to deliberately influence your counterparts' emotions. So for me, that was the biggest takeaway from

this interview and I'm going to try very hard to start practicing some of these things and making sure that I use empathy, tactical empathy in my negotiations going forward to help make sure that I can get to those win-win solutions a little bit more easily. There were so many gems in this conversation and if you enjoyed this episode as much as I did I would highly recommend that you go check out our previous episode together number 23 Negotiate Like A Boss with Chris Voss. In that episode we talked about the basics of negotiation and how to use those tactics in real life. Here's a clip from that episode. You talked about the basics of negotiation and how to use those tactics in real life. Here's a clip from that episode.

You get real good at that, we just practice. You get into a lift driver and a lift driver says, how are you today? You can say, ah, it sounds like it's been a tough day. Or you pick up on their affect and they seem happy and you go, ah, you seem happy. You get your practice in by just labeling what's on the surface, and that's how you get started. Now, motion is kind of crazy in that, if we label a positive, you sound happy, that increases the positive.

If they're frustrated, and you say, it's sound frustrated, the interesting thing is that labeling of a negative decreases it, it has the opposite effect. So you get some practice in, and you get used to hitting those emotions which now you're clearing the way they feel understood. They want to cooperate with you. They're more collaborative because they instantly feel more understood.

So it's a little bit of the karate kid wax on wax off thing. You just start labeling people and just label whatever you hear. After a while your ability to distinguish and understand what you're doing is really gonna catch up to your fast. And that's how you get into people very, very quickly. This episode with Chris Vals was one of our YAP classics. We actually replayed it on the podcast

because so many listeners enjoyed this episode. If you wanna make sure you become a negotiation expert, you got to listen to that episode number 23, and you guys can always find me on social media. I'm on Instagram at Yapathala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name, it's Halataha. Big thanks to the amazing Yap team, as always. Today, I want to give a special thanks

to my hardworking production team here at Young & Profiting. Shout out to Matt and Punis, our audio engineers, Rebecca, our lead producer, and Greta who is our amazing researcher. This is Hala, signing off, until next time. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

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