Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Dov Baron: Fearlessly Authentic Leadership | Leadership | E24

Episode Date: April 22, 2019

Be fearlessly authentic! This week we’re yappin’ with Dov Baron, world renowned leadership speaker and host of the popular podcast "Leadership and Loyalty." In this episode, Hala chats with Dov on a handful of topics related to authentic leadership including vulnerability, emotional intelligence, the stages of individuation, the science behind building a tribe, purpose-driven leadership and more! Want to connect with other YAP listeners? Join the YAP Society on Slack: bit.ly/yapsociety Earn rewards for inviting your friends to YAP Society: bit.ly/sharethewealthyap Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com

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Go to rethink. com. And our listeners get a special gift if you sign up to work with them. That's rethink. dot agency slash yap. You're listening to Yap, Young and Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Today we're Yapin with Dove Barron, CEO of Full Monty Leadership, and World Renowned Leadership Speaker, who's the host of the popular podcast, Leadership and Loyal.

In this episode, I chat with the ever-energetic and inspirational Dove on a handful of topics related to leadership, including emotional intelligence, the stages of individuation, the science behind building a tribe, purpose-driven leadership, authenticity, and more. Hey, Dev, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. My pleasure. It's an honor to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me to add value to this audience. I'm excited. Likewise, we can't wait to uncover all you have to share. So let's see. kick it off. You are the author of a handful of books. You are recognized as one of the top 100 leadership speakers to hire. And I personally find it really interesting to understand how people got into their actual careers. To someone who doesn't know your history, you seem born for this type of role. You're so well spoken. You're super polished and dapper. But in fact, this is a profession that you

sort of stumbled into based on my research. And you really learned your way into this career. And so I absolutely love to showcase this type of change to my listeners. So can you tell us what you were like as a young man, how you got into your first speaking engagement, and how you stumbled into your true calling and career? Sure. All of that in about three minutes, eh? Okay. As you said, this was not my natural place. I was born in a ghetto in Northern England, in abject poverty.

I certainly never considered myself to be a speaker or even thought about. about that as an option, but I knew I was born for something different than what was around me. Making a very long story shorter, I was fascinated with metaphysical understanding and philosophical understanding and began to travel the world to study with different spiritual masters while running businesses in three different continents. And then in 84, one of my clients asked me to come speak for his group. I did that, and then I got hooked speaking, and in the process of that, did a really good job of trying to make myself bankrupt and drove my business into the ground, let go of my other businesses, fell away for a while, came back into speaking after about a year,

and grew enormously, and then met with something that I crashed into my rightful position here on the planet to do what it is that I'm doing. So that's the Reader's Digest version without any details. You can go to any part you want. Okay, well, let's start off with what you were like as a young man. From my understanding, you were sort of like a buff guy with long hair and chest hair from what I heard. You've really been doing your research. I have. So you changed a lot. You changed yourself to fit into this role. Can you just tell us the story about your first speaking engagement? Because I think that's really interesting. Well, as I said, it started in 84. And in 84, I was 26 years old. And at 26 years old, I was a bodybuilder. And anybody knows who's 26 years old. If you're on

Instagram, you know that every 26 year old bodybuilder has to let everybody know how pretty they are and how muscular they are. So I wore shirts that were too tight and made sure that my muscles showed at every possible opportunity. And when I wasn't wearing that, I was wearing suits, really beautiful made suits. But on this particular day in question, I was wearing a tight t-shirt. I was wearing a tight t-shirt, ripped jeans. My hair was down past my chest, it was sort of Louis X-13th look, ringlet curls, big earrings that were large enough to hang parrots off. And a client of mine came in and we were chatting. And he said to me, I'd like you to come speak for my national managers meeting. I'm like, for what? Why? Why would I do that? And he said, I want you to

talk to him. I said, about what? He goes, it doesn't matter. You can speak about whatever you want. This is ridiculous. I'm not a speaker. I don't know what you're talking about. I go, I have no idea what to speak about. Because it doesn't matter, just come and speak. And I said, for how long? He said, for an hour, I was like, oh, my God, are you kidding me? There's no way I can do an hour. And he finally taught me into 30 minutes, but he had one condition.

And the condition was that I showed up looking exactly how I looked on that day. Well, this seemed ridiculous to me because he was asking me to speak to a national manager's meeting for his national company. And my hair on that day was like a wild man, like I said, past my chest, sticking out everywhere, wringlet curls. Big earrings in, my designer stubble, ripped jeans and a tight, tight t-shirt showing off all my muscles. And I said, but you know I wear suits? And he goes, it doesn't matter.

Show up like that. So I agreed and I showed up. And when I got there, I put my head in the door. And as I put my head in the door to this long ballroom, I could see all the guys sitting around the table. It's the 1980s, everybody's buttoned up tight, looking very Gordon Gecko from Wall Street, looking very uptight and business-like. And as I put my head in, they must have thought, well, who is this lunatic? He's obviously in the wrong room. And they're giving me this nod of the head to the side, which is bugger off, you're in the wrong place.

But I just waited. And then Steve announced me and said, let's welcome our speaker dove. And jaws hit the desk. And I walked up. And to be honest, I don't remember what I talked about. I only remember what I said at the beginning. And what I said was, put your hand up if you were a racist. These were very hot subject in the 1980s in Australia because of the aboriginals, the native Australian people, and were being treated poorly and, you know, they were trying to do something about it. And of course, when I said, put your hand up your racist,

nobody's going to put their hand up, even though it was all whitey's. So nobody's going to put their hand up. Okay. So I said, all right, fine. Put your hand up if you would judge somebody by the way they look, the color of their skin, or how they dress. And again, nobody put their hand up. And I said, you're a bunch of freaking liars.

And at that point, I figured I've done myself in. And I look over at my friend who had invited me to speak, and he's got a grin on his face. It looks like you can post-harsals through his mouth. He's smiling so wide. And he obviously was far smarter than I was. And that was exactly what he needed. He wanted them to see that they were biased. I said, the reason you judge me is because of the way that I look.

And the truth of the matter is, you don't realize I'm one of your customers. The reason I know, Steve, is because you guys make my suits. but if I'd have walked in on this day looking like this, you would have dismissed me. And that would have been a foolish move. So it was pretty fabulous. You know, I was very excited and I was definitely hooked. This was an amazing experience. I walked away, feeling pretty excited.

And about two or three weeks later, Steve came back to me and said, hey, Alistair wants you to speak for his company. Like, okay. Again, another national clothing company. Oh, this is exciting. Great. I'd love to do it. So what did I do? I did something stupid.

I went and did the research on what the speakers looked like. And speakers looked like they wore a uniform, blue suit, white shirt, red tie, and patent leather shoes, short hair, a clean shaven or a mustache. So what did I do? I bought the uniform. I cut off my hair. I shaved off my beard, grew this horrible thing that looked like something that died on my top lip.

And wore the uniform and showed up for the next gig and died a complete death. Why? because initially I'd succeeded because I was completely authentic. The second time, even though I had illustrated the same point, it had no substance to it because I was inauthentic. The good news is it only took me about four or five years to work that out. Awesome. I love that story. I was just hoping you would tell it. So thank you for telling it. There's a handful of topics that you write and speak about that I want to discuss today. emotional intelligence, building a tribe, authenticity, which you just mentioned, being purpose-driven,

all of these very pertinent topics that roll up into how to be a great leader. So since you brought it up, let's start with authenticity. You have been described as a leading authority on authentic leadership. So what does being an authentic leader mean to you exactly? That's a great question because, unfortunately, most people don't know what it means. and the analogy I give all the time is if you and I walk around the mall or walk around a conference and ask people, are you authentic? How many people are going to say no? Everybody's going to say yes. So it's actually a ludicrous question because everybody thinks they're authentic. The problem is most people

don't know what that means. So, you know, authenticity in the way that we understand it is being real, being true to ourselves. But most people don't know when they're not being real and they don't know when they're not being true themselves because they've never asked the deeper questions about who they actually are. So I'm going to give you a very clear definition so you can understand, not you personally, however, but all of us. And that is, if you want to understand what authenticity is, it's depth. That's what it actually is. It's depth. And it's then showing up in that depth. And that is the depth of your transparency, your vulnerability, your values, your beliefs, and your purpose and being willing to share that.

But you can't be authentic and shallow. However, again, I want to reiterate, the people who are shallow don't know they're shallow. It's not because they're stupid people. It's because they probably never ask the questions that create the level of depth. So if you and I ask people, do you know who you are, people will usually say yes.

But ask them, how do you know? They stumble all over the place. So when we say, who are you, people usually answer with, well, my name is Fred, no, that's your name. Who are you? Oh, I see. You mean I'm a CEO? No, that's your career title. Oh, well, I'm Catholic.

No, that's your religion. Oh, I'm a woman. No, that's your gender. People have not asked the deeper questions of themselves. And when we don't ask those questions, we don't get to depth. And when we don't get to depth, we're somewhat inauthentic to the level of of a capacity of what we're capable of. Very interesting.

And you mentioned it briefly. Vulnerability is also really important when it comes to this topic. So can you talk about how that is actually not a weakness but can be somebody's greatest strength? Thank you again for asking. That's a great question. So here's the thing, particularly for those of us who might be listening, I know your audience tends to be younger and that's wonderful. I particularly love millennials.

But that being said, if you're older and listening to this, there's a pretty good chance Or even if you're younger and you were educated by people who were indoctrinated with this, you probably grew up with the idea that vulnerability is a weakness. And don't let people see the chink in your armor. Don't let them see that you don't know, all that terrible messaging. The truth of the matter is that if you think for a moment, here's what I want you to do, just to grasp the strength and the power of vulnerability, for a moment, what I would like you to do is, in your mind, I would like you to picture on one side of you,

somebody that you know and have known for however long it is, it doesn't matter, but somebody you know who you trust and you recognize as a truly trusted loyal friend, you would go anywhere and do anything for them and they would do the same for you. Now on the other side of you, I want you to imagine somebody you've known for approximately the same amount of time. Whatever the amount of time is, it doesn't matter, but then just this is a person who is only an acquaintance. So if you've known them the same amount of time,

What's the difference between a friend and acquaintance? You can't say time because we've just said it's about the same amount of time. And the answer is reciprocal vulnerability. The bottom line is the people who are your loyal, trusted friends know your ship and you know theirs. You know the history of that person. You know who they are. You know the parts of them that are less than shiny. They know the less than shiny parts of you.

And that is not used against each other, but that is used in order to build a greater bond and a greater connection and greater loyalty between you. So vulnerability becomes your greatest strength as a leader, letting people in. If you're older generation, then you believe that mentorship went from the top down. If you're a great leader of any age, you understand that mentorship goes from the top down, from the bottom up and sideways. We have to be willing to be mentored. And in order to be mentored, we have to admit our weaknesses. We have to say, listen, I don't know as much about this as you do. You're 10 years younger than me and you've got a much better understanding than I do. Please show me. I need to learn. This is powerful. It creates a bond. Yeah. And I think

it plays into another topic that you speak about a lot, the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. Could you explain that to our listeners? So I want you to write this down if you're listening. This is important. So type this out, write it down, tattoo it on your brain in some manner. but it's this. The three most dangerous words you'll ever use are, I know that. Immediately you say the words, I know that, you have shut down your brain. You've said there's nothing else for me to learn. That is a fixed mindset. Because fixed mindset is driven by the ego. The ego gets in a way and goes, I don't want to look foolish. I don't want to look stupid. And the willingness to look stupid is the only way you grow. So what does that?

that mean? It means this, that instead of the words, I know that, you replaced it with, I'm curious about that. So there's something somebody shares with you, maybe something I'm saying right now, and as I'm saying it, your ego will naturally trigger. I know that. Oh, yeah, I know that. Then say, well, I'm curious about that. What if there's more for me to know? I wonder what I don't know about that yet. I wonder what I could know about that. I'm curious about what I could know about that at a deeper level. I'm curious about whether I'm fully using that, whether I'm fully integrating that into my life. So a growth mindset is grounded in curiosity. And for a little while, you will have to kind of discipline yourself to be curious, because curiosity is our most natural,

basic element. This is the thing you need to understand. Say you live to 100 years old, Between zero and four, you'll learn more than you will for the next 96 years. Why is that? Because the brain is malleable. It has plasticity. That's important. But what's more important is you are naturally a state of curiosity. And from then on, you start building a framework of the world to keep you safe. And that framework of the world, yes, more can be added to it, of course. But you start building in safety. And part of the safety is, I know that. Safe will make you stuck. You have to have a growth mindset that is rooted in curiosity. Awesome. That was fantastic advice. And you heard it. Write that down.

Never ever say those words. If you want to swear at me, say those words. Okay, so let's talk about improving ourselves as individuals because to be a strong leader, you need to be a strong person. Something you speak about quite often is individuation, which, was originated by the psychologist Carl Young, who described individuation as a process by which the personal and collective unconscious are brought in consciousness to reveal one's whole personality. So in short, it is the process of becoming self-actualized.

Yes. You talk about the three stages of individuation. Can you explain why maturing into your individuation is key to becoming an authentic leader? Absolutely. Thank you for asking that, because that's not a question that gets asked for. very often. And the reason is because nobody wants to think of themselves as not fully grown up. However, chronology, as in the years that go by, is a terrible measure of maturity. It's a terrible measure of maturity. Some of the most mature people I've met are, you know,

10 or 12 years old, and some of the least mature people I've met are in their 70s. So it's got nothing to do with chronology. So how it works is this, three stages of individuation. when we are born into the world, we are completely, totally and absolutely dependent. And it's all about me. And think about, you know, being a baby, you want everything, you need everything, you have no other way, you can't supply yourself, you need everybody to take care of you. And that's the first stage of development.

In that stage, there is no separation between you and your parents or you and the world. So therefore, if a baby is sitting in a high chair and drops the ceramic cup and the cup breaks, and the baby starts to cry. The parent will often say, oh, you know, the noise must have scared her or him. No, actually it didn't. It actually might have, but the real reason the baby's crying is because it doesn't understand the separation between itself and the world. So when the cup broke, it actually felt or presumed that some part of itself was broken. That's the first stage. there's this ultimate connection to the world, but at a very visceral level.

The second stage of development is when we get a little bit older, usually around 18 months to two, two and a half years old. Up until that point, we not only think we're part of the world, but we actually think mom and dad are us. So therefore, if dad leaves the room, we feel like part of us has disappeared. And by the way, we'll never come back. It's a permanent state. That's why when you play peekaboo with a baby, the baby giggles. You're gone. You literally disappeared from their world and now you're back. You're gone and you're back. And that's what the kid starts giggling. Because that's what it is. It's like you disappeared from the world. Now you're back. Oh my goodness. Wow. So in that second stage of individuation, it's I am you.

Up until that second stage is I am you. Now, at that second stage kicks in, that base, suddenly realizes, oh, I'm not you. So what it does is it tests that by leaving the room, going around the corner, and disappearing for a couple of seconds, then it'll come back and peek and say, oh, you're still there. Oh, I am not you. There's more to me than this. And so in that stage, a kid's favorite word is, no. It's not because it's being terrible too.

It's because it's the beginning of individuation. it's separating itself from you, realizing that you and it are separate beings. That's the second stage of where it starts to kick in. If we're good parents, we understand that we don't actually punish the child for saying no, we expand it and allow it to say no, but it's the favorite word. You offer them a cookie. They'll still say no, even if they take it. Go to bed, no, get up, no, that's the favorite word.

Then the next stage kicks in. And the third stage of individuation happens usually in our teens. And the second stage of individuation, we've all been teens. And if you've been a teen, you know you probably think your parents are an idiot or idiots. And that stage of development is because you realize that you are not their beliefs. So there is a natural state of rebellion that goes on for a person at that stage. If you have teenagers and they're rebelling and they're doing the things you don't want them to do. That's them just trying to say, I'm not your beliefs. So initially, I'm part of the world,

phase one, phase two, I am you, no, I'm not. And in the third stage, I am what you believe, no, I'm not. So now I'm not you. So now we transfer that over into the bigger picture, which is, so I'm not you, I'm rebelling. Therefore, I'm trying to find myself. The problem with it is human beings are also tribal. So we need to belong. If we don't belong, if we don't belong, to the family because I'm not your beliefs, then we go looking for a place where we feel like we do belong. The problem with that is we trade one family for another, and very often that's a peer group, and that peer group, we don't bother to flush that out and say, is that aligned with who I am? Because I don't know who I am yet. So we're fumbling around in the world trying to discover

what is us. And what's important here is to stop and say, is this true for me? do I have a place where I feel aligned with myself? And most people will not get there. By the way, just again, to remind you that many people in the 70s have never done this work, let alone in their teams. So to actually say, is this true for me? Does this evolve me? Does this bring me to a higher place of understanding of myself? And the bottom line of it is coming back to what we talked to before about a growth mindset is to become constantly curious yourself, your growth, and your development, curious about who you are. Is this who I really am? Because if you look back, the things that you believed in when you were a kid, maybe you believed

in Santa Claus, you don't believe anymore. And the things you believed in, I know, the things I believed in my 20s are not the things I believed in my late 30s. The things I believed in my late 30s are not things I believed in my late 40s and so on. There's an evolution and there should be an evolution to your growth. But we want to say, well, this is who I am. am. No, no, who I am is evolving and deepening. When you find the truth of your values, when you find your purpose, that deepens. Got it. So can you just help me understand what individuation has to do with leadership? What is the connection there? First of all, you can't lead others unless you can lead yourself. That's number one. So let's just start there. If you've not done self-inquiry,

if you've not done self-growth, if you've not developed who you are, then you're going to be leading on a false premise. So you've got to know what are your own values, what is your own purpose in order to lead others? Because remember, every human being is looking for meaning. In research done over the last five years, millennials said the number one thing that matters to them is having meaningful work. Well, what does meaningful work mean? It means not only do I find meaning in it, but I'm aligned with the meaning in it. If I've not found the meaning in it, if I've not found the meaning of myself, if I've not bothered to do that, then I've attached my meaning. And what happens with that is invariably does a lot of disappointment. Because I thought you guys were this,

but you're not. Well, actually, we are this. You just didn't bother to actually look. So in order to lead anybody else, you have to lead yourself first. That's what leadership is. Self-leadership first. From there, you can lead others. And from there, you are not compromising your own value system, you're not compromising your own purpose. So don't try to lead anybody else. You can inspire people, you can guide people, you can do all those kinds of things. But the truth is that leadership is at a base level purpose. What is my purpose and how does this align with my purpose? And how am I gathering people around that? Because when you find your purpose, you create your tribe. People will follow you anyway, just so you understand this, because people are looking for the

meaning of their lives. But they won't stick with you if you're not clear on what your purpose is. If you can say that out loud, and let me be clear, your purpose is not your passion. I realize there are people on Instagram who are sharing their passion, and I'm definitely in favor of that. It's wonderful. Terrific. They've got 100,000 followers, and it's wonderful. But many of them will die on the vine. And what I mean by that is, many of their followers will just disappear because it's not got any substance to it. It's sexy, it's attractive, but it doesn't have the depths that we're all looking for. Every human being is actually looking for that. Even the most shallow person you can think of is looking for depth. So your passion and your purpose are separate. Your passion is

transitory. It is the vehicle for your purpose, but it is not your purpose. You have a really good quote in your book, One Red Thread that you say, you find passion in your pleasure and purpose and your pain. Yep. I love that. So then how do we determine our true purpose in life? What is it that we should ask ourselves?

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Your passion is transitory. So the way I like to describe it is you need to think of your passion as a vehicle. And if you're entrepreneurial, you're going to change vehicles quite a lot. But your purpose is not the vehicle. The purpose is what's transported in the vehicle. And every passion is a potential outlet for your purpose, but it's not your purpose. So get that clear. So it's an outlet for it.

It's a transportation of it, but it is not it. So if the vehicle is your passion, what is your purpose? It is your pain. The reason that people don't find their purpose is because they don't want to look at their pain. I understand that. Don't get me wrong. Nobody wants to look at that pain, but it is actually the fuel source of your life.

And let me give you an exercise here right now to help you. Whatever your age is, I want you to think about what pisses you off, what upsets you off, what upsets you, what frustrates you. And by that, what I mean is not in the last 20 minutes or even in the last couple of years, but rather what has upset you for as long as you can remember? What's bothered you in the world for as long as you can remember? See, when I was a little boy, I was 10 years old and I walked into the living room and I saw my mom crying and I was befuddled.

I had no idea why she would be crying. And she was sitting on her own looking at the TV set, wiping tears away. And I said, what's wrong, Mom? And she pointed to the TV set and she said, he's dead. And I looked at the TV set, and it wasn't a movie star, it wasn't a TV star. It wasn't even a soccer star. I had no idea who it was. And then I listened.

And the men on the TV said, I have a dream that one day, I was, oh. And I had no idea who Martin Luther King was. I went and asked my uncle and he told me who Martin Luther King was. My uncle was the smart guy in the family. I asked him who was he told me, he told me about Gandhi and about how peaceful protests and how he was fighting for civil rights. And I suddenly was moved by this idea that a black man on the other side of the world, because that's what it was to a 10-year-old boy,

this African-American man on the other side of the world, who was a Christian minister, could take, touch the heart of my mother, a Jewish woman living in the other side of the world in England, a poor Jewish woman, how he could move her. And I was bothered by the racism that I saw around me as a kid. I was bothered by the inequity between people, how the struggles between people. I was bothered by how people wanted to judge each other rather than looking at who they were in themselves. That bothered me for as long as I could remember.

remember. And there was something that bothered me as a parallel to that, which was as a kid, I would look around and see my aunt and my uncle and even my mom dating people. And it was like they were dating the same person with a new face. And I was fascinated by why people would do dumb stuff over and over again. People who I considered smart would repeat the same cycle. So here's this biases that was going on around race and culture and judging people. And at the same time, this lack of judgment in a very healthy manner of saying, oh, well, let me look at this is a pattern that's reoccurring. That is something that's bothered me for as long as I can remember.

And it upset me, it would upset me to see my aunt dating the same guy with the new face that was going to be violent with her, or to see my mom dating another drunk or another addicted human being. And it would bother me to see that people would be judging other people simply by their skin. So this was a fundamental challenge for me is this lack of judgment and absolute judgment. And what was in between? That bothered me for as long as I could remember. It caused me pain.

That's how I found my purpose. Your purpose does not exist in pleasure. It exists in the things that have bothered you for as long as you can remember. And it's this desire to make a difference in the world. It's this desire to write a wrong, to come back to and find a way to. to be part of a solution. That's where your purpose is. It's not in your passion.

Your passion is exciting, but it'll be transitory. Wow, that was so powerful and so moving. I think my listeners are going to get so much takeaway from that. So how does a purpose within a leader help to actually motivate their employees, their team? How does it help to attract customers to their company? Again, what I just want to remind you of, as you're listening here, is every human, being is looking for meaning. We can't help but look for meaning. And we assign meaning even when it's not there. So what I mean by that is we somebody does something that you know and you go,

I wonder why they did that. That's you looking for meaning. Human beings look for meaning. That's what we have to do. We look for meaning. When we're looking for meaning, we're looking for purpose. We're looking for the purpose. The reason why we can't help but do that. By being a purpose-driven leader, by finding your purpose, you naturally attract people to you who are looking for theirs. The simplest analogy I can give you is a little dated, but I think most people can still understand it. If you think about an old radio set, if you like rock and roll, you tune it into a certain station, let's say 99.3 FM. And when you get to 99.3 FM, if you like rock and roll, you listen to that station.

But if you tune the dial again over and you go to 103.5 and that's classical music. And you don't like classical music, you will turn it away. If you tune into a station that's playing rock and roll one minute and classical music the next and then country music the next, there's a pretty good chance you won't stay on that station every time they play something you don't like. So that's exactly what it is. people are looking for a place to go where there's an alignment of frequency, where there's an alignment of resonance between who they are, even if they don't know it themselves yet. So there's a natural

pull towards something that is aligned with my purpose. I can't find that with somebody who's not aligned with theirs. So if your station is broadcasting all over the place and you've not found your purpose, which is your dominant frequency, then how can I tune into it? I can't. So I want to be pull towards something. When you know your purpose, because everybody's looking for meaning, and this is the thing about it, it's one thing to look for your purpose. It's another thing to find it. It's another thing to evolve it. And it's another thing, again, to have the courage, the courage to speak it, to own it, to claim it. Because when you find it, evolve it, live it, and speak it with courage, other people can go yes or no. And most of the,

of us don't want to live in a world of yes, no. We want to live in this nice, comfortable gray zone of, oh, you know, it's okay because we don't want people to dislike us. And as my good friend Larry Wingert likes to say, if people don't hate you, you don't have a strong enough stand. And that's not about getting people to hate you, but it's meaning that you are so clear that this is the deepening of your truth. Not from an evangelical, I'm right, your wrong point of view, but from a place of I know this is right and true for me point of view. If you don't agree with it, that's wonderful. Find your own purpose. But if this is aligned with you, that's also wonderful. Once you do that, you become this amazing being because it takes the hiring part

HR out of the picture because the people who work for you are aligned with that purpose. They will then tell their friends in the talent pool, you've got to come work here. Here's why. And it isn't about foodball machines and cappuccino machines. It's about here's why I love going to work there because we are so committed to X, Y, and Z. Our leader is on purpose with A, B, and C. And what's more is our customers know it because we are here to make a difference in the world. One of the things I want to ask you to think about as a company from the point of view of purpose is,

if your company was not in business for money, if it was in business for something else, if money was simply removed from the world, would you bother doing business? Would the world miss you? If it wouldn't, you're not on purpose. I love that. So in relation to teams and culture, let's move on to all your philosophies related to building a tribe. My research assistant Shiv came across an article that you wrote in the entrepreneur on the hormone oxytocin. Often this is called the love hormone or the cuddle hormone.

Oxytocin has a lot to do with loyalty between managers and employees. In fact, research has linked oxytocin to trust and social attachment vital for leaders looking to build fiercely loyal teams. So can you explain to us what oxytocin is exactly and how leaders can make use of this natural phenomenon to build trust with their employees? Absolutely. Yeah, again, this is something I cover extensively in my book, Fiercely Loyal. It's something that's missed enormously. So it's a powerful, powerful hormone. It's generally associated to women and babies. And so when we are born into the world, there is a flood of oxytocin. Just think about this for a moment. I'm going to be graphic here for a moment, but just to make my point. I want you to think about the birth process. Like, If anybody was sane, nobody would have babies. I think you're going to push this 7, 8, 10 pound, whatever it is, being out of your body through a very small hole and things are going to get ripped and torn and there's going to be a lot of pain.

You know, if somebody was coming up to you saying, how do you feel about doing that? You'd go, no, thanks, I'll pass. Right? No, thank you. I'll have a cupcake and a tequila and I'm out of here. Thank you very much. No interest.

But we do it. Why do we do it? And the answer is because the hormonal response is so massive. So here's the thing. When a baby is born, the mother's brain is flooded with oxytocin. The hypothalamus, which is the mood and appetite center of the brain, releases this hormone into the system and literally floods it, floods it. It is called the bonding hormone, as you said, the cuddle hormone, the love hormone.

It's the bonding hormone. It's flooded into the mother and it passes from the mother into the breast. milk and into the baby. And what happens is that there's such a massive flood of it. This is why babies are so bonded with a mother. This is why mothers get very upset when their baby doesn't latch properly because there's an inner knowing that that is an important part of the bonding experience. Now, here's what's interesting about it is that when that happens, there are cells still left in the body from the fetus that are still left inside the mother's body for a full 26 years. And mirror neurons in the brain of the mother match the neurons inside the child. This is why a mom

phones you. You're 25 years old. You're at college and you're doing your master's degree and your mom phones. She goes, what's going on? You go, nothing. She goes, what's going on? My boyfriend, my girlfriend, let me. That's why there's an actual real science behind that. It's not just like your mom's intuition. This is actual science. Well, that hormone is always present in us. When we fall in love, there is a flood of that hormone. And when we bond with somebody, that hormone is in place. Now, coming back to where we talked about individuation, we're going to tie these two together. In the first stages of life, remember, we've got this flood of this hormone and we're in this first stage of life where we're totally bonded to the world and to the people that we are

surrounded by our initial tribe, which is usually our family. When that happens, we feel, quote, in love. We feel like we're in love. So what happens is once we start breaking away and individuating, we actually lose a little bit more and more and more of that connection to feeling loved. And there is something called reunion grief in that we hunger for that connection again. We want to be connected at that deep, deep level again. And so when you fall in love and you suddenly find yourself in the arms of your lover, in the arms of the person you've fallen in love with, there is that moment of returning to that bond, that connection. Again, that oxytocin floods in the body. Now, that hormone is at its most for the first 18 months of the relationship between the baby and the parent.

As you're listening to this right now, I just want to challenge you to think about your relationships. As you think about your relationships, when did they hit a problem? Your long-term relationships, I guarantee. to you, your long-term relationships, hit the wall at somewhere between 18 months and 24 months. Why? Because the initial flood of oxytocin, the bonding hormone has started to wear off. It starts to have tachyphalysis. It wears off. And when it wears off, you don't have that hormone to bond you. You better be bonded by something more than simply the hormone. You better have values and all kinds of good stuff connected. Now, let's shift this back to leadership.

If you're a leader and you're on purpose, you will attract people to you. When those people are attracted to you and they feel there's an alignment, there is a release of oxytocin because there's an alignment. And the closer they get to you and the more vulnerable you are,

remember, vulnerability, reciprocal vulnerability creates a bond. When you do the reciprocal vulnerability, you also release oxytocin. So over that period of time, you're on purpose and you've been vulnerable, the people are bonding to you, they're having a release of oxytocin, you're having a release of oxytocin, but that oxytocin will wear off in about 18 months. Now, what do we know about millennials? They leave their jobs every 1.2 to 1.5 years. Ah, when do they leave? When the oxytocin wears off? That's the problem.

Got it. So interesting how you tied all of that together. And it's, if you think back to even like friendships. They start to get rocky after like a year and a half or so. You're absolutely right. See, this is the thing. It's not about romantic relationships. It's about human beings. So it's true for leadership. It's true for romance. And as you said, it's true for friendships. So before you throw the baby out with a bathwater, you might want to actually ask, what is the alignment here? Is the challenge that I simply need to return to curiosity, rather than saying this is who they are. Maybe you need to challenge yourself and each other to go deeper into the relationship and ask the deep questions.

Okay, awesome. So we have about 15 minutes left, and I still want to talk about my favorite topic ever, which is emotional intelligence. And you actually have an entire workbook on emotional intelligence, which I read. And in it, you say, understanding our emotions and knowing how to tap into them gives us enormous strength. So can you talk to us about the importance of emotional intelligence when it comes to leadership? So emotional intelligence, a sort of godfather of this is Daniel Goldman who wrote the book, Emotional Intelligence. Emotional intelligence was not founded by him, by any stroke of the imagination. In fact, Daniel is a journalist who just did a lot of great research and brought it all together

and did a phenomenal job of doing it. The challenge is that emotional intelligence has become a tool for leaders to use on the people they work with. That is not what emotional intelligence is. That's a piece of what emotional intelligence is. Emotional intelligence, first and foremost, is something you use on yourself for self-knowledge. Emotional intelligence allows us to understand what drives people and therefore what drives us and how to communicate with each other in the context of that. So it allows us to connect with ourselves, with each other, and in the context of environments, meaning in the work environment, in the social environment, whatever it is. Without self-knowledge, which is the foundation of emotional intelligence, we will never be able

to fully lead. So again, we're back at where we started here, which is if you're going to be a great leader, the number one thing is self-knowledge. Self-knowledge will allow, you to have compassion for yourself and others. So one of the things around that's very popular now in the context of emotional intelligence is compassionate or empathetic leadership. Well, the truth is, but most people, that's an exercise and not a truth. Well, how do I be more empathetic with my people? Well, you do this and you do that and you do the other thing. And people go away and do that. And they go, well, yeah, it didn't get the results. That's because you didn't feel empathy. You went through the exercise. And they go, well, how do I feel it? You have to.

to recognize it in yourself. So I'm going to give you a great example of it to help you understand. Many, many years ago, like 100 years ago, I trained as a family counselor. That was one of things I did in my early 20s. And I learned family dynamics and family counseling. And in that training, I was trained in the old school way of doing it. And the old school way of doing it was you must remain emotionally distant from your clients in order to serve them. That never sat well with me. I never felt that that was honest. I always felt like that was off. But it was the way I was trained. It was quote, right. Again, see, we back in this idea of right, but it was not true. So I was like, I know this is the right way to do it, but it's not true for me.

I feel it is wrong. I'm not aligned with this. And back in those days, I read a book called the road less traveled, written by M. Scott Peck. This is like in the early 80s. M. Scott Peck was a military psychiatrist. You can't get much more rigid than a military psychiatrist. And yet I read in his book, and one of the things he said is, as a psychiatrist, he goes, everything I've been taught was wrong. He goes, what I know is I can't help people I don't love. And that was like, wow for me. because that spoke to the very essence of what I knew to would be true for me. And what I realized was that the only way I could actually serve people was by deeply caring about them, that this bullshit objectivity is not real, it doesn't work.

So when we have to have empathy for somebody, I try to be an empathetic leader, but we've not actually self-inquired when we've not really done that work, we can't actually help. So as an example, as I said, I'm going to give you a great example, a few years back, about three, four years ago, a friend of mine and I, Tony Mack and I, were invited to speak to the UN and we were invited to speak to the UN around radical leadership and ending violent radical leadership, what we could do to facilitate that. When we're talking about that, we're talking about the far right.

We're talking about jihadists, all those kinds of things. And the reason we were invited to speak is because Tony is. the founder of a group called Life After Hate. Life After Hate helps people who get out of these hate groups and to reemerge into a healthy community and be a productive member of society. And the reason that Tony does that is because Tony used to run a group called War, white Aryan race. He was a neo-Nazi who was about as nasty as you could get. And we were invited to speak there because I had helped to de-radicalize Tony. Tony and I and I, had worked together and I had de-radicalized him. Tony had already left the movement when I met him,

but the movement hadn't left him. All the belief systems were still in place. And we started to work together. And so we were invited to speak at the UN many, many years later, by the way, when Tony was already running life after hate. And the person asking us the questions said, how could I possibly help Tony, particularly because my name is Dove, which is a Jewish name. And the mediator asked, are you Jewish? And I said, yeah, by birth I'm Jewish. And they said, how could you help a neo-Nazi? And I said, oh, that was easy. And they said, why? And I said, because there's no separation between us. He's me and I'm him. And they said, what do you mean? Were you a neo-Nazi? I said, of course not. No. And they go, I don't understand. The principle is this. You can't serve somebody unless you can see yourself in

them. So I've never been in Neo-Nazi, but there were other things in me that I could see in Tony. There were things in Tony I could see in myself. Until we are willing to see ourselves in the other person, we can't empathetically serve. We have to find the rapport. We have to find the empathy. We have to find the commonality between us. And we can't do that from a fixed mindset. We have to do that from being an open mindset, from a growth mindset, from a compassionate mindset, from being willing to ask, how is this me? So nobody sits in front of me who isn't me. That is how you empathetically lead.

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So if you're going to develop emotional intelligence in your leadership, you have to first self-examine. And if you're willing to jump to the judgment of, oh my God, I can never be like that. Find it in you. It exists. It wouldn't be in front of you if it wasn't you. From there, you can empathetically lead. Don't try and read all the books on emotional intelligence and use them on somebody else. Take a look in the mirror. The bravest person in the world is often afraid to look in the mirror. Looking in the mirror is where the real courage is, being willing to look into the shadows. As Joseph Campbell said, the treasure you seek is hidden in the cave. You refuse to enter. You have to enter into the darkness of your own being to find the treasure of who you are

so that you can truly serve as a leader. Wow. That is so powerful. I'm going to have to make that into an audiogram and promote it on social media. Thank you. So in relation to this, you basically leave an emotional footprint on everybody you meet. And this is something I read in your book, but it's something that I think about constantly. I just never had a word for it. I evaluate it all the time. What do people perceive me as?

What is my impression on people? and most of it has to do with your emotions and how you carry yourself. So can you explain emotional footprints to our listeners? Wow, you guys did great research. Thank you. So we talk a lot these days about our carbon footprint and wanting to reduce our carbon footprint. And as I wrote about, we don't actually think about what is our emotional footprint. And what I want you to understand is that everybody you interact with, you are having an impact on. Leadership is actually about impact.

What is the impact you're having? And whether you like it or not, you're having impact. You are creating an emotional footprint with everybody you leave. And every interaction is an opportunity. Every interaction is an opportunity to inspire. In spiritus. Inspiritus means to be drunk on the divine. Every opportunity to inspire another.

But what we do is we have impact, and often the impact is not good. Now, nobody's perfect. I sometimes leave an impact that I'm not happy with. This is not about checking on yourself and saying, oh, wonder if they liked me. This is not about that at all. Not even close. This is about deciding to go in and be in your truth when you know your truth, when you've done the work. You mentioned my book one read the thread.

When you found your purpose, that's what that book is about. When you've gone through the process of finding your purpose and telling your truth and looking at who you are, then you understand the impact that you're leaving is a. alignment with that truth. And so you're always asking, was the impact that I left, was the emotional footprint I left, one that is truly authentically connected to my purpose, or was it misaligned? Because sometimes I'll leave an impact on somebody that is aligned with my purpose, but they won't like it. And I'm okay with that. And sometimes I'll leave an impact on somebody that is not aligned with my purpose, and I'm not okay with that, even though they may have liked me. So I never want to

trade my authenticity for approval, but we are trained to do that in our society. And so when you look at your emotional footprint, that's the question. Did I trade my authenticity for approval? Or did I stand in my truth? And when you stand in your truth, there will be impact and it won't always be positive. It won't always be wonderful. They won't always like you. There are people listening to this who think, oh, you know, I really didn't like that guy. Great. Okay, that's fine. But, You know what I know is, I showed up here as me. And if you didn't like me, then what you rejected is me, not some facade of me. Because if you're actually going into a situation and concerned with whether people like you or not,

you will be malleable. You will be Play-Doh for the people around you. And people will reject you anyway because that's unavoidable. And how sad is it to be rejected for not being you? then they never even got a chance to see you. That's a sad thing. You want people to see you, accept you, or reject you, either way, based on the truth of who you are. And that requires courage.

At the same time, when you show up in that way, it's not about being a bull in a China shop. It's not about brutal honesty, which, you know, think about the first word, brutal. It's about radical, deeply compassionate honesty. I see you in me and this is my truth. This is who I am. This is what I believe. This is the work that I've done to get to that. It's not some craft that I pulled off the top of my head to convince you.

This is what I've boiled it down to. Wow. There's so much to unpack there. And I think that myself and my listeners, we have a lot of work to do when it comes to defining our own purpose and having it be so clear that we leave our emotional footprint on others. And it's very clear to them as well. With that, let's close out the interview.

Where can our listeners go to find out more about you and everything that you do? I know you have several free e-books that you can share with our listeners and a new course I heard if you'd like to give details on that. Thank you so much, Hall. I appreciate the opportunity to share that. You can find out more about me and all of our resources at full Montyleadership.com. If you actually go to Full Montyleadership.com forward slash gift, G.I.F. There you will have the opportunity to download a couple of my ebooks for free, including one red thread, which will help you to find your purpose.

So that's all there. You can find out about my podcast there. We have the number one podcast in the world for Fortune 500 listeners. You can also find about my YouTube channel. There's over 500 videos in there. My blog is on the site, too. All kinds of resources. But here's the thing I want to say to you.

This is important. Listen, Halla put together this podcast and obviously, very obvious to me, somebody who does about three interviews a week, as in I'm the guest on shows about three interviews a week. So I do a lot of interviews. And how wonderful the research that's done, the time and energy that's put into this, you may be listening for an hour, but I assure you there's a lot more than an hour when into this show. Please write to Haller, let her know what you got out of the show, what it did for you, how you're going to use it.

subscribe to the show, review the show, share the show with others. And write to me, my email address, my private email address, I know it's crazy, is DOV at Dovebaran.com. Write to me,

C.C. Hala, tell us what you got out of this episode and what you are going to do with it because information is worth the hole in a donut unless you apply it. Write to us, tell us what you're going to do with it. And if I can be of service to you,

there's a way for me to help for you, that's what I'm here on the planet to do. Write to me, let's talk about how I can help you or your company, your organization, whatever it is that you're doing. Thank you for your time, your energy, and your commitment. Full Monty Leadership.com. Thank you so much, Dev. It was such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Hopefully we can have you back soon. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Young and Profiting Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to write us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. YAP on Instagram at Young and Profiting and check us out at young and profiting.com. And now you can chat live with us every single day on YAP Society on Slack. Check out our show notes or young and profiting.com for the registration link. You can find me on Instagram at YAP with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name, Hala Taha. Big thanks to the YAP team for another successful episode. This week I'd like to give a special shout out to Christian, our web manager who keeps our website up to date with the latest content each and every single week. And to Kayla, who writes our wonderful. show notes. This is Hala. Until next time.