Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Farnoosh Torabi: A Healthy State of Panic, Harness Your Fears to Build Wealth and Crush Your Goals | Finance E261

Starting point is 00:00:00 Isn't money terrifying? If someone's afraid of asking for more money or switching jobs or starting a business or having a conversation about money with a partner, they're scared. The moment that I'm realizing that staying in my lane and just doing the job that someone tells me to do, that is never going to be a recipe for true financial freedom, which I define as having optionality and choices in life. We have this tendency to think that fear is exclusively bad. I think that's just dishonest. I think it's dangerous to also feel that way. When I say you're afraid of money, sometimes it has nothing to do with the money. You're afraid of things, I'm sure, Hala. I'm afraid of things, and that's okay. And I'm excited to talk about fear in this new way. I have aspirations. I want to be a homeowner.

Starting point is 00:00:47 I want to invest. I want to be able to take care of myself and not have debt. But how much money do you need to live in New York comfortably? And for me, it was a million dollars a year. So I'm like, okay. I'm at the lowest tax bracket right now. How am I going to get to a million dollars a year? Varnush, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here.

Starting point is 00:01:26 I am very excited for this conversation. I think it's going to be a really important one from my listeners. And before we get into your new book and all of that, I did want to get some understanding about your career journey and your background. So I learned that you are also Middle Eastern descent. Your parents came from, Iran in the late 70s they came to America. So my first question to you is how did their approach to life, their perspectives on life help to shape who you are today? Yes, I am an Iranian daughter. I was born in Worcester, Massachusetts, and that culture clash, let me tell you, growing up in Massachusetts in the 80s and then you have these Iranian parents. My parents, like a lot of immigrants of that era, came here for the pursuit of, I dare say, the American dream. And all that comes with that,

Starting point is 00:02:18 which is really financial independence, career security, maybe you buy a house or two. And my parents, I saw them work extremely hard, starting out with very little and incrementally growing their wealth and growing their network and building the life that they have today. And so for that, I've just learned so much about what resilience means, what it means to put in the work, but also there has to always be a part of you that is ready for uncertainty, that is ready for failure, that is ready for rejection, because I'm not here to say that they did all the right things. They worked hard and it all paid off. There were times when things were very uneasy and things were very precarious and there was rejection. And so that was also a learning,

Starting point is 00:03:06 You know, that the world is not always forgiving. The world is not always ready to accept you. And even so, your job is to control what you can control. Your job is to not give up on your goals and just keep pushing and keep breathing. And, you know, fast forward to today, I've built this career in personal finance. But I think that the emotional strength around fear that my parents really gave me and passed down to me that I think was generational. I think it's something that just runs through our DNA, this sort of relationship with fear that we have, this awareness of fear is something that as a young

Starting point is 00:03:45 person, it was not always helpful, but as an adult now with a family and a business and all of those responsibilities, I've learned, I've had to learn how to have a very emotionally strong relationship with fear. And that's what's brought me to this next book, A Healthy State of Panic. So let's dig into that a bit. So it sounds like. like your family had a pretty fearsome approach to life. And this is common with many immigrants. You know, they come from a country that might be like war-torn. Then they come to America and they still have this type of perspective that things aren't going to be perfect and like have your eyes open, watch your back. And you've said that fear has actually been your guide. So how is that so?

Starting point is 00:04:28 I think that when fear shows up, it's an opportunity to learn so much about yourself. Chiefly, what it is that you want to protect, what it is that would make you feel secure. I think we all want those answers. I think it's very easy to get lost in the way of life and the many directions we get pulled. We lose ourselves. We lose our goals. We forget, like, what am I even doing here? And fear is, at least for me, and I think for a lot of us, when we are honest with ourselves and we admit it to ourselves, fear can be that compass. It's very personal to us, why we have certain fears. You You're afraid of things, I'm sure, Hala. I'm afraid of things. And sometimes they overlap. And sometimes they won't. And that's okay. Because fear is a derivative of the life that you've lived.

Starting point is 00:05:12 And sometimes the life that your parents have lived. And yeah, it's been an unlikely sort of friend, an maybe a surprising friend for me. And I'm excited to talk about fear in this new way because I think our culture, and it's not just America, I think it's worldwide, that we have this tendency to think that fear is exclusively bad. There is no room for fear in your life. If you have any patience for fear, then you must not be strong. You must be the opposite of that, which is a coward. And I think that's just dishonest. I think that's wrong. I think it's dangerous to also feel that way and to believe that. Don't just take my word for it. The studies have proven this as well. I definitely want to talk about fear later on. We're going to get into a new book, A Healthy State of Panic, which, by the way,

Starting point is 00:06:03 love the title of your book. We're going to go through that, but first, I want to learn more about your upbringing your journey because I think there's lots of learning lessons in that in itself. So like a lot of people in your early 20s, you were debt-ridden. I think you were $30,000 in debt or something like that. You were eating a lot of subway sandwiches and can tuna living in New York City, which is where I live. It's really expensive to live here. So how did you turn things around in your 20s, because I think a lot of my listeners are probably also in debt with student loans and things like that. Yeah, I remember, you know, at my first job, I was making $18 an hour before taxes. And the biggest perk then was to stay at my desk past 7 p.m. because that would mean I would

Starting point is 00:06:49 get a car ride home, so didn't have to pay for transportation. And they would buy me dinner. So that was a free meal. So I just got really good at like, never, I never stopped working, essentially. That's the moral of that story so that I could afford all these daily expenses. Honestly, I think that the turning point for me was realizing that something was going to have to change because I have aspirations. I want to be a homeowner. I want to invest. I want to be able to take care of myself and not have debt. And making the money that I am, I knew that wasn't going to be forever, but how would it be substantially more? Because in New York, I don't know if you remember this, the New York has resurrected this since. But this was like 2006. They published a front cover story. This is

Starting point is 00:07:39 New York magazine. Like, how much money do you need to live in New York comfortably? And it was a survey. And it would start you off with like, okay, do you want to, I don't know, work in finance? Like, are you a teacher? Where do you want to live? How often do you want to eat out? How many kids do you want, private school, public school. And then all the way at the end, it would tally for you how much money you would need every year to fulfill that life. And for me, it was a million dollars a year. So I'm like, okay, I'm at the lowest tax bracket right now. How am I going to get to a million dollars a year? And a colleague of mine who was probably making she and her husband combined that much. And she was about 10 years ahead. She said, you'll get there. And I was like, well, that's

Starting point is 00:08:26 nice that you have that confidence in me, but I have no idea how I'm going to get there. But that was the first sort of awakening to actually truly how much things would cost for me. And I don't think that was an exaggeration. I do think that if you are today in New York with children and you're going to private school and you have full-time child care and you have two working, you will need seven figures to live comfortably without debt and to feel like I can eat out whenever I want, all the things that really you want to experience in New York because that's kind of while you're there too. It's for the culture. It's for the people. it's to be out and about. And subsequent to this, I was also seeing women in my industry and I worked

Starting point is 00:09:01 in media as a journalist gradually move on in their lives and get to the point where maybe they wanted to have children and then they would slowly disappear from the workforce. Or they would be pregnant and they would go to HR and they'd come out in tears because they'd realize that they thought they had all this time off paid, but actually the time off wasn't paid. And this was again, early 2000s. We've evolved since and companies have become a lot more, shall we say, understanding and hospitable to families and people who choose to have a life outside of work. We have a lot of work to do on that front still, but this was very early days and there weren't a lot of benefits for people who wanted to have work-life balance that was paid. And so I'm seeing the reality is what I'm trying

Starting point is 00:09:46 to say. I'm seeing the future for me. And I'm like, all right, I can't control all the uncertainty. control what things cost. I can't control policy. But can I control my choices, what I choose to do, how I choose to make money, how I choose to invest, where I choose to live, because that's a, it's going to cost money. And I started to plot. I started to realize that for me, at least the very first thing that I could do to create a better financial life for myself and to achieve bigger and better in life is to have more ownership, have more ownership of my stuff and not just the stuff that I buy, but the stuff that I create. I'm here making, at this time now, my second job, I'm making $40,000-some thousand dollars here. But I am a huge value to this media organization.

Starting point is 00:10:37 You are a journalist, right? I'm a journalist. Financial columns and things like that. Right. It started out as a, I worked in magazines, and then I worked in television, and then I went to digital. So I've gotten a taste for all sorts of platforms and all types of storytelling, which was intentional. Because at the moment that I'm realizing that staying in my lane and just doing the job that someone tells me to do, that is never going to be a recipe for true financial freedom, which I define as having optionality and choices in life, to be able to afford whatever it is for the ability to stay, to go, to pivot in life. in your financial life, in relationships.

Starting point is 00:11:18 Money unlocks all of that for us. And I recognized, too, I mean, I was working in the money space. I was a financial journalist. So this was all very clear to me as well professionally. But yeah, I started to see that I had more ownership of what I created and what I put out in the world. And so, as I was working for a corporation, I realized I should probably leverage my skills in other ways outside of this nine to five.

Starting point is 00:11:47 I know you are very passionate about that. So side hustles, but within my domain, within my wheelhouse, I wasn't going to go side hustle and be a dog sitter, although I love pets, although not dogs so much. Please don't have me to angry male, but I'm not a pet lover. But, you know, I would have done it at the time. I would have cleaned houses. I would have done anything to get out of the debt that I was in,

Starting point is 00:12:09 but also to sort of like test the waters and see what else I could do. And so I would write for local newspapers. I babysat because I loved kids and I was like, well, this could be training ground for one day when I become a parent. So everything I did with this idea of like, this is not just a way to make money, but it's an investment. It's a pillar for me as a stepping stone into the next thing and the next thing. And do you know what? The articles that I freelanced that I didn't make that much money doing, but I did enough for them. So it accumulated.

Starting point is 00:12:38 but that exercise, that outlet, that project, led to my first book. My very first book that I published was the culmination of all of these articles that I written about living in New York, how to make ends meet as a young person, financially, how to save, all the free things you could get in New York City. That was my column in a local free newspaper. And it turned into my first book, Your So Money, which then became the thing that I was really after, which was ownership, because now I have something that I can hang my hat on that nobody can lay me off from, nobody can fire me from, and that I can continue to leverage because it is a calling

Starting point is 00:13:20 card, it is an asset, and it's got equity. It's got sweat equity. It's got my own intellectual property in it. And when I got laid off, so I'm fast forwarding a little bit, but I would get laid off eventually. That would be the book. That would be my parachute and my platform for then developing. the business that I have today. So it started with really recognizing that the world is not going to wait for you. The world is also not set up or design necessarily for what you want. So you need to re-engineer. You need to remap that. And I had the benefit of time. I had the privilege of time. I got early red flags on all of this, working in New York and observing how others were struggling. And I took that as a cue, a signal to go do something about it.

Starting point is 00:14:10 These are a great lesson. So I'm so happy that you shared this story. And like you mentioned, you got laid off during the 2008, 2008, 2009 Great Recession. And I've never been laid off, but I've gotten fired from an internship before that I worked for free for three years at Hot 97. And I remember that I was devastated. Like, I felt like the world had ended. I got over it fast, but like I was really sad. I felt like really my self-esteem was blown. How did you deal with getting laid off and moving on and bettering yourself after that experience?

Starting point is 00:14:47 Well, I did go through the period of grief that I think we all should. We should all feel the feels. The day I got laid off, I had gone in for a haircut. I didn't go into work right away. I went in for a haircut. Meanwhile, the company's having a meeting about the layoff. And I'm not. not there. And so I lost a lot more than my bangs that day, I say. I got a phone call. As I'm hit, my hair is dripping down onto like the Us Weekly on my lap. And it's my colleague at work. And he's like, Farnoosh, where are you? I said, I'm getting my hair cut. It was on the calendar. Like my boss knows it's, I was on talent. I was on camera talent. So like, you're allowed to leave the job to go get a haircut. This wasn't that like, I wasn't cheating or anything. He's like, well, they had a big meeting. People are

Starting point is 00:15:33 getting laid off and they're looking for you. And I was like, I think I'm never going back is what's happening. So yeah, long story short, I got laid off and it was gutting. Gutting. I had just negotiated a title salary bump and all the things and I had such a, I derived so much of my ego and sense of self-worth from that job title. And at this time, I had already published my book. So yeah, I had that as my own personal achievement. But this job represented. so much to the world about like who I was. I was the senior correspondent and I would go on television and represent the website and I was like their poster woman and all the things. And I was like, who's going to book me again? Who's going to take me seriously again? Who's going to give me a job again?

Starting point is 00:16:19 If someone said already said to the world, like we don't value her. So I took it very personally, which I think is typical. But as we know, these are all just business decisions. And it was probably just like, we need to save this much money. So we're going to get rid of these level of jobs. And I went home and I cried and I ate a lot of dumplings and I watched Bridget Jones diary. And just that for about a healthy seven days. And then, you know, this is what I want to say to anybody who's fearing uncertainty in their life because a layoff immediately bruise all this uncertainty, all these what ifs. I just thought I was going to have to go home and live with my parents. Great. And it's true. When you get laid off or when someone says to you,

Starting point is 00:17:01 or breaking up, whether it's a relationship or a job, you can't go back and get it. You can't beg your way back to it. I don't recommend that. The job title's gone, the salary's gone, the position is gone, the role is gone. But your job now is to take inventory of what is left and all the good things that are left

Starting point is 00:17:18 that you cannot be fired from, that you can absolutely take with you into your next adventure that will be your assets. Because along the way we lose sight of this stuff. You know, when I'm working and I'm getting a page, check every week. I'm not paying attention to the fact that I'm an incredible journalist and I have a rolodex and I have a network and I'm comfortable. I don't need to think about these assets that got me there. Great. I feel like I can put them to bed now because I'm in the job. I got the job. I've

Starting point is 00:17:49 proven myself. Well, now I don't have those things. They've been stripped of me. So let's go back to thinking about how I got here and how I can take these assets with me to the next opportunity. So I recognize my inventory list look like this. I have a master's degree in journalism. I have a huge network of people who want to support me that I have supported. And I have an unshakable sense of ambition. I have a desire to create. I'm a curious person.

Starting point is 00:18:19 And now I know something that I didn't know before, which is also valuable, that nothing in the corporate world is secure. Your job is never secure. Before I thought it was. And that idea of being an entrepreneur terrified me because in comparison to having a weekly paycheck and benefits, of course, that's a little scarier because you don't have control over those things. But then I realized, like, nothing is certain.

Starting point is 00:18:45 The 9 to 5 is just as uncertain as being your own boss. And so it gave me more faith and more confidence to go do the independent thing, which was to incorporate that year. and I did and I leveraged again the book that I had, the relationships that I had, the skills that I had and the ambition that I had, which again, nobody can take away from me and went and did the thing that scared me, but now I'm all in. Yeah, this is so powerful and something that I just want to highlight from what you just said is this idea of investing in yourself and having assets that you invest in aside from your corporate job. Because I remember when I was working at this radio

Starting point is 00:19:23 station Hot 97. All my social media handles were Hala Hot 97. Everybody knew me as Hala from Hot 97. My whole brand was Hala Hot 97. And then once I got fired, I was like, who am I? I'm nobody. I'm nothing because now I don't have this big logo to identify with. And I had to restart everything, all my social media handles. And now I always say to everyone, your personal brand and your social media profiles are a transferable asset that you take from job to job to job, So do not brand yourself aligning to something that you do not own. You've got to own whatever you're promoting on social media and how you're aligning your personal brand.

Starting point is 00:20:04 I mean, I don't even have a real valid personal email. I had my email from high school and then my work email address. So when the work email address went away, I was like, I'm thinking it's time to travel to Gmail. Like I think I'm ready for not Farnush at Rocketmail.com, you know, which if you email me there, it probably still works, but it's all going to spam. I was like, I need a more professed email. I got a website, which things I didn't think I needed because, again, I was comfortable.

Starting point is 00:20:31 Many of you might know this or not know this if you follow me, but the week or two after I got laid off, I went on the Today Show and talked about getting laid off. And I remember my agent was like, please don't do that. Please don't tell the world. Because while we know and I know, and he knew my agent, that this layoff had nothing to do with my talents, the culture is not. so understanding of that, right? We still think that when a company says you're laid off, it's because they don't value you. And, you know, so what if they don't value you though,

Starting point is 00:21:04 right? Like, it's okay. A company is allowed to change its business and to change what it values. It is just business. And so we need to disentangle our sense of self-worth from the value that we bring to the job. I always say to people, when you're asking for more money at work, it's not about what you're worth, what your worth is immeasurable. But what is the value that you're bringing to the job that is necessarily important to that employer? It has to match up. And at some point, the employer said, we don't value that work anymore. It's not that they don't value you. So it's important to remember this, but I went on the Today Show, really just to say to everyone in the country, like, these layoffs are happening, y'all. It's the recession. Things are getting real. But

Starting point is 00:21:51 here's my advice, here's what I'm doing. And this was kind of the first time when an expert was positioning herself also as a member of the community, someone who was really just going through it like everybody else. Like I was always on the Today Show giving you the tips. Here's how to do the things. And now I'm working things out too. And I appreciated that opportunity because I think it showed that I was vulnerable and human just like everybody else. And I know that was in 2009. These days we just expect it for all the experts. Like, we want you to show the true you. And that was my first taste of it. And it proved to me that this is my new path and this is the right path. Yeah, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call

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Starting point is 00:25:38 thing you need to know. It's not a character flaw that you're feeling this way. It's actually your natural wiring. And here's the thing. When it comes to burnout, it's really about the type of work that you're doing. Some work gives you energy and some work simply drains you. So it's key to understand your six types of working genius. The working genius assessment or the six types of working genius framework was created by Patrick Lencioni and he is a business influencer and author. And the working genius framework helps you identify what you're actually built for and the work that you're not. Now, let me tell you a story. Before I, uncovered my working genius, which is galvanizing and invention. So I like to rally people and I like to

Starting point is 00:26:18 invent new things. I used to be really shameful and had a lot of guilt around the fact that I didn't like enablement, which is one of my working frustrations. So I actually don't like to support people one-on-one. I don't like it when people slow me down. I don't like handholding. I like to move fast, invent, rally people inspire. But what I do need to do is ensure that somebody else can fill the enablement role, which I do have, K on my team. So working genius helps you uncovering these genius gaps, helps you work better with your team, helps you reduce friction, helps you collaborate better, understand why people are the way that they are. It's helped me restructure my team, put people in the spots that they're going to really excel, and it's also

Starting point is 00:26:56 helped me in hiring. Working Genius is absolutely amazing. I'm obsessed with this model. So if you guys want to take the Working Genius assessment and get 20% off, you can use code profiting. Go to workinggenius.com. Again, that's workinggenius.com. Stop guessing. Start working in your genius. Yes. So you often appear today on really big shows like the Today Show and Good Morning America. We were talking about how you used to host a primetime CNBC series. And so now you're a familiar face on TV. You're always getting asked to give your expert opinion and things like that. How did you initially break into becoming a media personality, especially independently? Yes. The journey may not look like this. anymore because this is pre-social media. This is pre, even Web 2.0. This was, you know, we were still dialing up on AOL back in the day. And so when I was starting out, expertise was rooted in education. And it was rooted in sort of these traditional rights of passage like publishing a book, being on the masthead at a major magazine, which, you know, you're basically saying to the world,

Starting point is 00:28:11 I have been vouched for. I have gone through this vetting process. And so my expertise should rise to the top because these big gatekeepers have said, you know, thou are an expert. And so when I worked in publishing in New York City, when you get to work as a writer in a magazine, that's a big deal. People are going to put you on TV. They want to hear what you have to say. Then when you write a book, Honestly, my first book, I really just wanted to write it to make my mom proud and maybe get some speaking gigs. And it turned into suddenly everyone going, well, what's your opinion on this, Farnouch? And I said, I turned to my literary agent. I was like, why is everyone asking me for my opinion now? He goes, where do you think the word authority comes from, author? And I said, oh, yeah, I didn't realize that.

Starting point is 00:28:57 Okay. So I just kind of faked it till I made it a little bit there in those middle years. but I was always comfortable on camera. I studied broadcast in journalism school. I was a theater rat all through high school and college. So the public speaking and the being on camera and being on my feet part was not the study for me. The study was being comfortable enough and believing enough in myself to go out there and say things with conviction and with heart and with passion.

Starting point is 00:29:28 And that comes again with time. I write about it in the book about how like the first time I'm the Today Show, I said a very embarrassing thing to a lovely anchor, Meredith Vieira. I said to her, well, you can read it. I don't want to repeat it. It embarrasses me. Still, you could probably see it on YouTube. But I thought after that my career was over. I was like, I can't believe I just word vomited on live television. Well, what did you say? Tell us the story. So I was being set up for success. Like, they were not out to get me on the Today Show. And Meredith Fierra at the time was the anchor. And I'm there to talk about my first book, You're So Money. And she says to me, and she sort of

Starting point is 00:30:06 teased me up to like basically do a home run. And she's like, so you feel like you're the best person to give advice to this new generation of consumers, you know, young 20 somethings, because you're really in the thick of it with them. You're in the trenches with them. Right. Yes, that's the answer. I should just said, yes, correct. You know, instead I said, right, we don't want someone like you who's three times older than us giving us advice. Oh, ouch. Well, and I should go back.

Starting point is 00:30:38 She said, it's better for you to give this advice than me, right? She said, better than me, right? And I said, yeah, because, you know, we don't want someone that's like three times our age giving us a vet. And she said, I'm sorry, what? And she laughed and everybody laughed, and I was dying on the inside. And I was dying on the inside because, one, I would never mean to insult someone, especially Meredith Vieira, whom I revere. And because part of me believed that there were people who were

Starting point is 00:31:07 not rooting for me in that moment who didn't want me to be successful because the world's a scary place. The world in New York City media is a doggie dog world. And I knew that there were some who pretended they liked what I did or supported me, but behind the scenes were not rooting for me. And that again may just be my own imposter syndrome, but I've seen enough evidence in my career to know that I don't have all the fans. And I was really scared of going back into the newsroom and facing some of those people who were probably secretly ecstatic that I messed up on live television. But you know what? When it finished, when the segment ended, the producer came up to me and I thought she was going to tell me to run for the exit signs. And she said, I want you to know

Starting point is 00:31:53 that the executive producer would like to have you back. And I said, I'm sorry, did he go grab a muffin or something during that apocalyptic moment on television? And she said, no, you know, you landed on your feet. And that's what matters. And you showed that you can mess up a little bit, but you got back on track. And probably I helped ratings in that moment

Starting point is 00:32:18 because someone was probably doing the dishes and heard me say that and stopped and turned up the volume. It was like, who is this lunatic on the Today Show? So, you know, everything's a business. I was good ratings. But I took that as also a cue that what I was trying to do in the moment was trying to be like everybody else. I was trying to pose as what I thought an expert did, which was like to talk fast and to look sharp.

Starting point is 00:32:44 And I was focused on all these externalities and all these things that weren't actually me. And in that process, I lost my way. And I said something completely not me and silly and regretful. And when it happened, oh, you better believe, Hala, I felt a jolt through my body. I felt like this fear was like staring me in the face going, let's course correct. WTF are you doing? Your self-sabotaging. You have nothing left to lean on at this point except yourself.

Starting point is 00:33:16 Don't try to be like everybody else. Don't try to channel all these other people that you've. seen on the Today Show, be excellent, be your own version of excellent. And you know this stuff. You know this material. You didn't get this far to just get this far. Finish the show. Stick your landing. And I did. I remember that voice. It was like, stick your landing. And I did it. I did it terrified, but I did it. And it has to do with all the preparation. Like you said, you did belong in that seat. You did have the preparation. You were in theater and had broadcasting degree and did all the work, a book, journalism, all of that kind of stuff. So you, in that moment, even though you had a little bit of a blip,

Starting point is 00:33:55 you were prepared to clean it up because you had all that experience. You weren't an imposter in that seat. And at that point, I'm 28 years old. I've cleaned up a lot of messes. I know what it's like to grab a mop. I was doing it on live TV, but nonetheless, I know how to clean myself up. I clean up nicely. All right. So I want to get into your new book. It's called A Healthy State of and even very successful writing about money, how come you are now deciding to write a book about fear? Well, isn't money terrifying? And they're kind of two peas in a pod, money and fear.

Starting point is 00:34:30 Yeah, I think I've had both a professional relationship with fear insofar as every time I talk about money with anybody on my show, in real life, there is a rumbling of fear. If someone's afraid of asking for more money or switching jobs or starting a business or closing a business or having a conversation about money with a partner, they're scared.

Starting point is 00:34:54 And so fear has always been there in these conversations. Personally, too, we've sort of gotten into it. I grew up with a close relationship with fear. Fear and I go way back. And so as I'm now in my 40s, thinking about my next book and my next offering to this world of money, but also the world of life, because when we're talking about money, we're talking about life, I chose to sort of center it on fear because fear opens the door to talking about money, but also so many other things, which naturally come up as we're talking about money.

Starting point is 00:35:31 So work, relationships, our health. And I think that the big idea of this book is a new idea, which is that we might want to give fear some more credit, that it might actually deserve some space in our lives. This is not the message that we have been given. that we believe. And I think all great books make us stop and think and maybe look through life in a new lens, a lens that would give us the support that we need, especially at life's huge crossroads. I think there's so much uncertainty right now in the world. There's always uncertainty, but I think it's especially heated right now. And a book like mine, I hope, will just give people the appreciation for their fears, which won't go away. They seem to never go away. They seem to never go away.

Starting point is 00:36:17 that's right. Because that's how fear works. It just doesn't just like quietly tiptoe away. It shows up. It is stern. It has a message. We're still the adults in the room. We're still the ones with the agency. We still want to stay empowered. And so this book talks about how to have that balanced relationship with fear so that you're in control, but you're also recognizing that this feeling has something important to tell you. And it might be worth listening. Pull up a chair. And what kind of data do you have? around Americans feeling anxious and scared when it comes to money? Oh my gosh.

Starting point is 00:36:53 I think I read a survey that three and four Americans are anxious about money. And I think the other 25% are just in denial. I mean, this is the sort of study that, and I've been doing personal finance writing for over two decades. I feel like every six months, there's another survey out that's like, we're still scared. we're still scared. Americans are still afraid of all the things investing and they'll never buy a home and their prospects and oh, they're going to go broke. Oh, a recession. I mean, just have you stepped outside? Have you read a newspaper? The world is a scary place, in particular, the financial world where really we're talking high stakes stuff. We're talking about our money, which represents our

Starting point is 00:37:38 livelihood. It is our tool to, as I said, in the beginning of our conversation, optionality and choices if we lose it, it's life-changing. And so the data's out there. It is clear. And I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. And as like an introduction, because we're going to get into how to learn from all different kinds of fear, like rejection and failure and all that good stuff. But why should we make friends with our fears? Well, I think that all of our emotions deserve space in our bodies, in our lives, not an abundance necessarily all the time. But I think we've been so focused on this goal of being happy that we've lost sight of the journey of what it takes to actually be happy. A study came out this year across several

Starting point is 00:38:32 universities that looked at people who had a sort of positive or even just neutral association with the word fear, as well as words like sadness and anger, which we categorize and we bucket as sort of like bad feelings versus those who have negative associations with these words, guess who's happier? The people who are comfortable with these words and these feelings and these thoughts. And why? I think it's because on the road to being happy, you have to be comfortable in your skin. You have to be able to recognize that your life and your feelings and everything that you embody, there's a story there, there's a narrative there, there's a history there, there's a future there. All of that is special, all that is unique, all that is personal to us, all that deserves

Starting point is 00:39:25 a spotlight. And denying these things, I mean, okay, go for it. Try to deny and ignore your feelings. does it ever work? No, it just gets bigger, you know? That's not how fear works at least. Fear doesn't just say bye-bye when you tell it to. Fear, as I said, comes up usually when we're at high stakes moments when there is a cost. There is a risk to calculate. It's worth our time to listen to our fears. Yeah, we can get more into it, but I'm a fan and I hope that this book is sort of a rebrand to fear because for generations we've been told that it is, not worthy of our time. And I would like to dispel that myth. I love that. And so like I mentioned before, there's lots of different types of fear. There's rejection, loneliness, fomo, failure.

Starting point is 00:40:13 And I want to discuss some of those with you. One of the first fears I want to talk about is the fear of rejection. I think this is something that all of us has experienced. What can we learn from the experience of feeling rejected? Yeah. And fear of rejection is universal, as you say, because it goes back so many. I mean, it's like it's probably the first. fear that we've ever experienced as human beings in the primitive era, rejection from your tribe, rejection from your community could mean the end of your life. You know, conformity was safety. Conformity was how you stayed safe. So fast forward to modern times, as we've evolved, so has this concept of rejection and how we fear it. And it shows up at work, when we're up for maybe

Starting point is 00:41:00 a promotion. It shows up as we're starting a business. business, fearing will customers want what I'm putting out there in the world? It comes up in relationships, being rejected by a partner is terrifying. I think that when you fear rejection, and there are many bits of wisdom, I think, that this fear offers. But one of them that I love to reflect on is that when you fear rejection, perhaps it is a sign that where you are isn't safe, that it is not your job to try to force the acceptance or try to wrangle with this fear of rejection so that you can turn it into love and connection. But maybe you need to go find another place where you are going to be loved and trust that that place exists. Sometimes rejection does not happen to you. It happens for

Starting point is 00:41:52 you. And when you fear it, maybe you should trust that fear that, okay, I need to course. correct a little bit because where I am, this community, this audience, this team at work, it's not getting me. And as much as I try and as hard as I work, they're not getting it. Well, I think you got your answer. It's time to move on. And you don't move on right away. This fear of rejection isn't telling you to run immediately to the next place. Of course, if you're in a dark alley and you're hearing things, please do. But this book isn't about when you're in like sort of the dark alleys. But it's like when you're in the dark alleys of your career or your relationships, right? Like it's about, okay, time to strategize, time to plot, time to reroute, and start making those

Starting point is 00:42:42 steps to a place of acceptance. And so many times in my life that has proven true and in others I've talked about in the book, but that's one of the wisdoms and one of the gifts of the fear of rejection that, you know, it's here so that you can trust it. That's so smart. I love that. How about FOMO? FOMO is so popular now. We've got so much access to everyone's day-to-day lives on social media. It's really hard not to feel FOMO. What can we learn from that feeling? FOMO is a modern day fear. I mean, maybe the cave people grappled with FOMO, but I have to say, as you mentioned, with social media and technology and all the transparency, it is just this heightened level of feeling left out, which is really what FOMO is. It's this sense of everyone's doing this cool thing. I'm not. And it really hits where it hurts our sense of connection, our sense of belonging. It kind of dovetails with this fear of loneliness and rejection.

Starting point is 00:43:41 That's why I put them, kind of, I clustered them together in the book. We start with rejection. Then we go out of loneliness. But then we get right to FOMO because it's sort of like right there. And I have found that when I experience FOMO in my career, and raise your hand if you've been there, like when you see other people in your profession, doing cool things that you're not in the entrepreneur space. How can you not have FOMO when you see thought leaders and entrepreneurs putting out cool new

Starting point is 00:44:08 digital products or having these great events and workshops and you're not doing these things? Or they have a podcast and you don't have a podcast. So it's like, are you even doing it right? Are you even a player? And so for me, I remember distinctly it was around 2015, 2016, and I'm noticing a lot of people in the financial thought leadership space like I am in, starting to have courses. And they were, oh, seven-figure launch, eight-figure launch, $2,000 courses. And I'm like, wait, what's going on? I did not get into this industry to be a marketer and sell online courses, but maybe I need to learn

Starting point is 00:44:47 because this is where the train is going. And I had extreme FOMO. And I started to go down this like online course rabbit hole. I bought the courses about the courses, about the courses. And I, man, I was like not having any fun. And I realized, I still didn't think that it was them. I really thought it was just me. Like something is wrong with me. I can't figure this thing out. And I remember having lunch with a friend who had just launched his course. And we were at a sushi bar and I was like, congratulations, seven-figured lunch. He's like, don't do it. He's like, it's so much work. And not that you're not a hard worker and you can't do the work, but you're not going to enjoy the work. It's like this hamster wheel where I feel like I have to spend so much to make so much.

Starting point is 00:45:33 And then I've got all these students that are relying on me. So I got to keep the thing going. And it's just like, I do like, what have I done? Now, there are many people who have so much success with courses and they love it. And I think you should do you. This is not a knock on people who pursue online courses. Of course not. But the point being is that for me, this was a struggle.

Starting point is 00:45:51 And I thought that my FOMO initially when I read it, when I read the fear, I was like, oh, I got to go do the thing everyone else is doing. That's the mistake we always make with FOMO. But actually, FOMO was like, what the F is up with you, Farnoche? What is the thing that you really want to fill here? What is that void? Because something is drawing you to this and it is persistent. It's not the actual course, but what is it that the course represents that you want? What is the feeling that you're seeing everybody experiencing at the end of this course project that you want. And can you go create something like that for yourself, but isn't the course? So when FOMO shows up, the fear of missing out, the mistake is that we think we have to go do

Starting point is 00:46:37 the exact same thing everybody else is doing. But what it's actually wanting us to figure out is how to create that experience or feeling as opposed to the thing. So for me, the course was a representative of creating something of value that was lucrative, that had some passive incomeness to it, and was proof of making an impact in your career. And when I sat with those ingredients, I realized there's other ways to go do that. It doesn't have to be a course. And so my way was to do events and to do workshops, which doesn't rely on scale. That was the that really bothered me about the course is, it's like, I have to go now and create scale quickly. And that for me was just not fun. But with a workshop, you can have fewer people, you can have a higher

Starting point is 00:47:29 ticket price, and ultimately a similar revenue stream or even profit margin. But I'm showing up in the way that I show up best as a presenter, someone in person, connecting in person, hosting. I love doing all that stuff. I wouldn't be able to necessarily get that same result virtually. So that was, so what that was seven years ago, I'm still doing the events. And that's what I know I've been successful because it has endured. I think maybe I would have gotten one course out. I would have eeked it out, but I don't think I would have done it again. And for me these days when someone says, what's, you know, how do you define success?

Starting point is 00:48:06 I say, well, I'm all for doing things as experiments and if doesn't mean everything has to last forever. But when something does, that's a great success. Like my podcast has been nine years running. Oh, wow. I didn't realize it's been that long. Yeah. This is my fourth book, right? So I feel like when you do something and you keep wanting to do it, those are some stars aligning. So I know you had brought up that you often bundle in, you know, rejection, loneliness and FOMO together. So how can we harness this feeling of loneliness? Because I feel that this is a major problem, especially since COVID.

Starting point is 00:48:43 it. Yeah, it is. You know, with loneliness, I think it's important to acknowledge it. It's an epidemic in our country. There's so much loneliness and it's a killer and we should fear it. So when you fear loneliness, you're not alone and you're probably fearing the right thing. You don't want to be alone, right? But sometimes we think that the opposite of loneliness is surrounding ourselves with all the people. And that's not, I think that's not it. I think that's not what your fear of loneliness wants you to do. Your fear of loneliness firstly wants you to get really comfortable with being by yourself. It does. It says, okay, you're lonely and that's not a great feeling. But maybe before you run out and try to find your people, find yourself because it'll be so much easier to identify who

Starting point is 00:49:39 people should be. If you don't know yourself, you're not going to know your people. When the fear of loneliness shows up, sometimes is it because we are afraid of facing ourselves. I had a friend like this in my 20s. She was a colleague in media and she was the life of the party. Hala, she was always out, out till 2 a.m. Let's go to the next bar, the next bar, the next bar, and the next bar. And then one day she confessed to me and she said, you know, I hate being alone because when I'm alone, I'm alone with my thoughts. And she had a life that was hard. You know, she grew up in a broken home. Her father had just passed away. And I got it. You know, that's scary. The scary place to sit with yourself and your feelings. But that is where the emotional strength develops. That is where the love for yourself

Starting point is 00:50:26 and the appreciation for yourself grows. And that's where you want to meet people. That's how you want to meet people. In college, I was so lonely at Penn State, a school of 50,000 people. So you're wondering, how is that possible? Farnoush, there's so many clubs. There's, like, I mean, it's built for socializing. It's built for gathering. But I just didn't feel connected to many of my peers there. And what would I do? I would relish in the loneliness of those Saturday football weekends when everybody's at the stadium at Penn State on those weekends when everybody, 100,000 people were at the stadium. And for the first time all week, the campus is quiet. I can sit anywhere I want at a restaurant. I can stroll through College Avenue and not face any crowds. I looked forward to those weekends.

Starting point is 00:51:19 And I found myself, and I got lost on those weekends. And I found myself on those weekends. And I then met a friend at school who was also lonely and struggling with his own loneliness in other ways. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we became fast friends. And it wasn't because we formed a trauma bond. It's because he was also working on himself through that loneliness. He was working through that loneliness by working on himself and getting comfortable being solo. And so when we met, we knew each other really well and we could see ourselves in each other. And that's, I think, how we ultimately forged a lifelong friendship. But I write about Dustin in the the book and he's just such a special friend that I made all those years ago.

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Starting point is 00:56:23 facing your debt, which is a sign of maybe the mistakes that you've made or the regrets that you have. And that's hard to face. There's the fear of sometimes making too much money and what that's going to do for your acceptance in another way. Like maybe, you know, I know people who are afraid to make more money than their parents because their parents will be upset. You know, it's just whatever. Like when I say you're afraid of money, I know it's so messed up. When people are afraid of money, sometimes it has nothing to do with the money. All the time, it has nothing to do with the money. It has to do with your relationship to money, the stories you've been telling yourself about money. And so when the fear of money shows up, your best assignment, number one,

Starting point is 00:57:03 is to trace the root of that fear. Where did it actually begin? Where did you first adopt this fear? Because I bet you adopted it. It wasn't something that you were just bored and feeling. You know, you experienced it, you saw it, and then somehow it became who you are and what you think. But it's important to zoom out and it's important to reflect on the root of our fears, especially when it's the fear of money, because it will tell you something very important, usually about the way you were raised, the influences that you've had, then and still. So maybe still you're in a relationship or you're in a community or you're in a household that is feeding you these fears, which are actually fallacies. They're not real. They're just these contrived perceptions,

Starting point is 00:57:48 understandings, myths around money that we tell ourselves because money is very emotional and money tends to poke at our sense of dignity and pride and ego. And when we don't like what money says about us, we sometimes create stories that aren't true. So it's just important to examine that. It's the first step when you have the fear of money. And the next step is to when you've recognized these patterns, these stories, these ways that you've been raised, that you don't really want to continue. to create a new narrative. Okay, all that happened to you, it's not to say that it doesn't have

Starting point is 00:58:25 validity or it didn't happen, but it's in the past. And now you are an adult with agency. So what's going to be your choice? Are you going to continue to lock arms with that fear, which is really what we've decided is fake? Or you're going to create a new narrative that says the opposite of what you have been told to believe. You've been told to be afraid of. For me, that was, I had a fear of making, quote, unquote, too much. The fear of success, to some extent, scared me because culturally and societally, we don't think that women who want to be rich are lovable, that deserve respect and love. And I know, I say that out loud, and it sounds so silly. But these are the These are the things that we have been subliminally told or directly told all our lives from family, from community, from culture, from television.

Starting point is 00:59:25 I mean, I love the real housewives. And it's evolved, certainly that franchise. But I think in the beginning, like these, you know, it's like, who, what do we talk? How do we talk about them? Like these money grubbing, these like misguided women, they just care about money. Well, what's wrong with caring about money? Yeah. It doesn't mean that that's the only thing you can care about. My brain has many pockets. Like, I can think about money and I can also think about my kids. I can also think about my community. I can also think about my work. Like, I am an evolved human. But when, for some reason, women have, for instance, and just our modern generation, like this is deep rooted. We are not given the runway and the allowance and the appreciation to, like, be down with money and to want for money, God forbid. So the intelligent brain is telling me that's all false.

Starting point is 01:00:11 but the emotional side of my brain can't untangle from these, you know, these messages. And so while I've already been successful, I'm already the breadwinner in my marriage, I've written a book about female, financial independence, like, I'm all for it. But personally, I have to be honest, there's a part of me that was like, if I actually try to double my income, given that I'm already like comfortable, life is good, like, I'm going to be pushing the envelope and trying to make more is going to come. at a price too high that I'm not willing to afford. Things like giving up my time, giving up my relationships, being perceived as money grubby. And oh, man, it made me play small for so long

Starting point is 01:00:52 until I realized like, I've just decided at some point that I'm going to take these fears with me that were passed down to me. Why? Why am I doing this? Don't I want to be financially powerful? Yes, I want to be able to contribute and participate and money is power. And I know that even that association is tough for some people. Like, I don't want to be powerful because then we think power means like dominating. But power is also helpful and healing and bridges to communities. And it's like amazing power. Power is whatever you wanted to be. So I decided to like rewrite the narrative. Put it in my words. Make my pursuit of money rooted in the things that I cared about that I found value in. And that's something we can all do. When you're feeling like that you're feeling

Starting point is 01:01:41 like you're not worth it or like, that's too scary. Evaluate that message, rewrite it so that you can get behind it. And I did. I got behind it. And I will say this, though. I was still afraid of sacrificing time and relationships in the pursuit of making more money because you and I both know, like, the money just doesn't come out of thin air. And so I was like, all right, I'm going to do this.

Starting point is 01:02:04 I want to go out there and make those seven figures. But I'm going to honor my time. and I'm going to try to honor my relationships. So what does that mean for me? How am I going to do this? It might be a slower climb. But along the way, I'm going to create boundaries around my time. I'm going to invest in an assistant, which is money up front and that's scary.

Starting point is 01:02:25 But in my mind, I was like, we're going to get this six months. I know exactly what I need in terms of deliverables. We're going to hit these goals. And if we don't, then we'll move on. Like, I'm okay with scrapping and pivoting and rerouting. But I was like, I think this is an important step because with an assistant who can do my executive functioning tasks, which take up a lot of hours and are important, I then, for the first time in my career, have time to think big and make, you know, forge relationships that I haven't forged before that are going to be very valuable to me. And when I did that, oh, my gosh, I mean, I did the thing. I made the seven figures and it took a couple of years. but I was well on my way by then because I had made the decision. I'd rewritten the financial

Starting point is 01:03:12 narrative that was first rooted in false fears. And here's the other thing I did. I just raised my prices, which takes no time. It just takes deciding. And I didn't do it for everything, but I tested the waters when I thought it felt right. And even when I felt scary, I did it because I always say, I love Alexandra Carter, who you should have on your. podcast because she's my client for three years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alex's social. Yeah. Oh my God. Her social's amazing. This is great. I love when like we connect these dots. Yeah. But Alexandra, so you've heard her say, like if you're not afraid when you're asking for more, you're not doing it right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that was amazing. You've got my wheel spinning. One thing that really captured my attention was when you mentioned

Starting point is 01:04:00 that you're the breadwinner of your relationship. And for me, as a successful entrepreneur, This has been a big hurdle for me. You know, I've had, right now I'm with a great guy and he's really successful. But I see my career, like, literally going like this. Like, I'm starting to, like, make a lot of money. I feel like I'm about to, like, 3x my income next year. And so I know I'm probably going to be the breadwinner in whatever relationship that I'm in. So I guess what advice do you have and for other female entrepreneurs who are crushing it right now?

Starting point is 01:04:30 Because I think it's important to still have that kind of dynamic with your man in a way. way. And so it's like, how do you save like, I guess, their ego in all of this? Well, I wrote a whole book about, I will send you my book. How it's okay. Yeah, I need it. When she makes more. It was my last book. It was nine years ago when I wrote it. And my biggest offer is anyone who is feeling this way. And here's, I just want to give you the backdrop for all. While as you are skyrocketing, so are so many women in comparison to men. More women are going to college and graduating from college than men. More women in their 20s.

Starting point is 01:05:09 If you look at like the metropolitan areas like New York, Boston, Chicago, L.A., like in their 20s, women are making more than their male peers, I think because of the college degree. And sometimes, you know, it's not just college. It's like they're going to get their PhD too. More women are buying homes. Single women, homebuyers are the largest group of homebuyers in our country. So all this to say that this is the reality that we live in today,

Starting point is 01:05:34 one in four women are the leading breadwinners in their marriage, and that includes single moms. So what I would say is that whatever expectations you have about who should do what in a relationship simply because of their gender, you got to get rid of that. You really do. You need to recognize that when it shows up and know that it's not your fault and it's not a bad thing, but it's not something that will be helpful. You know, it's like we all have these deeply ingrained expectations around gender norms, especially in a relationship. And if you even look at today, we've evolved as a culture, yes, but when we survey the Americans on their sort of ideals in marriage, men and women equally say that they think that men should be the primary financial

Starting point is 01:06:28 provider in a relationship, that like that should be the guy's role. And I'm talking heterosexual relationships. Resoundingly, like 70% of men and women equally believe this. So we are up against a lot of cultural standards that are rooted in primitive times. And it's something that you just have to be extremely aware of. And if you or your partner has an abundance of this, of these feelings, maybe it's not equal. Maybe it's like one partner is like really, really leaning into like, but I'm the man and I should be doing this and or I'm the woman and I should be doing. this, you got to check yourself and you got to talk about it and be honest about it. And I think it's always healthy when you can talk about how again these ideals came to be. And you can talk about

Starting point is 01:07:16 where, you know, because it's not inconsequential to how we were raised, right? Tances are if you grew up in a household where the dad went to work every day and came home and the mom stayed home and did a lot of work around the home but was not making money, like that may be the model that you think is the model, right? And so you arrive in a relationship and you're completely thrown off. So important to recognize when these feelings come to the surface that you have to talk about them. And you don't want to make your partner feel bad for harboring these feelings. Again, because it's, I mean, that's like saying like, it's like rejecting their childhood. That's like rejecting their past. And that's, I don't think, what you want to do. Secondly,

Starting point is 01:07:59 it's recognizing that in a relationship, there are. many ways to contribute significantly. Money is just one of them. But as a married mom of two, I will tell you, food management is like a full-time job. And so many other tasks. Like, there are many quiet tasks that my husband perform that I think sometimes we forget what everyone's doing, but it's so much. And certainly some things he does that fall maybe more in sort of the gender norm, the male norm bucket, and I do the other things. But it's not because I'm thinking to myself or he's thinking to himself, like, well, she better do that because she's the woman. Or I, but it's like, this is just what I like to do. It's what I'm gravitating towards. It's easier for me or I have more

Starting point is 01:08:47 time to do it. I've interviewed many couples. The most common thing I hear from the successful couples where she makes more is this. We just do what we got to do to make it work. work and we throw out the ego and we throw out these expectations that are tied to gender norms because that's where the conflict and the friction lives. And you don't want to go there. Because at the end of the day, you've got bills to pay, you've got goals to hit, you've got kids that got to get to school on time, you've got work deadlines. Now you're going to throw in this extra layer of like, well, you should do this because you're the woman and you should do that. You know, take a page out of how same-sex couples run their households.

Starting point is 01:09:33 Seriously, I interview them for the book. There's a lot we can learn from same-sex couples in terms of how they operate their households. It's not about, obviously, it can't be, right? Like, it's not about gender norms. So there's much to be learned and studied on that front. And then the last thing I'll just say about it is be prepared for things to change in your relationship. You know, that the most successful couples are also the nimblest couples. They're the most flexible and the most willing to pivot.

Starting point is 01:10:02 That those who are very insistent on certain ways of working together forever are the unhappiest. Because life shifts, life changes, and your success will be measured by how you react to sometimes these changes. Like if your partner comes home, the breadwinner comes home and says, I got laid off. What are you going to do? having already worked out some of these scenarios before they actually strike, hopefully they never do, but preemptively having a plan is so healthy. And I think in your relationship, Paula, you're like, I'm going to three X my income. So what is that going to mean for us in terms of how we are organizing our time, how we are organizing our calendars, who's doing what? Maybe

Starting point is 01:10:45 we should start outsourcing more things. I'm a big proponent of outsourcing. Because sometimes neither person should do the thing, right? It's like your time. is better spent doing other things while you invest in someone else to clean or cook or pick up your kids from school or whatever it is that you choose to do as a couple. So basically what I'm saying is communicate. That's it. Such good advice. I really needed to hear that honestly. So I really appreciate you breaking that all down for us. So why don't we just move on. We're about to close out the interview. You did bring up outsourcing. So there's one tip that I love that you talk about called calculate and delegate. Can you talk to us about that? Give us that quick tip. Oh, yeah. So this is some

Starting point is 01:11:28 really quick back-of-the-napkin math. I think I got this from Tim Ferriss actually years ago, but he basically, and he may have gotten it from somebody else. So pardon me, I don't have the actual source, but the math is correct. And it's this. When you are on the fence about investing in a third-party help, whether that's someone to do your laundry or be your virtual assistant or what have you. It is sometimes very simple math. You take your income. You take off the last three zeros. So if you make 50,000 a year, take off the last three zeros, you're left with 50. Now divide that number by two, 25. That's your hourly, personal hourly rate. Would it cost someone less to do something than $25 an hour that is of high value to you? Then probably you should hire that person, right? If it's going to cost you less to do it,

Starting point is 01:12:18 then even then I would say maybe still hired the person because we value our time, but we also have to value the ROI, right, of like getting back that time. So yeah, you save $25, but also what does not doing the thing get you as well? Like what's the investment that you're going to get back with you when you get back your time? It's not just the time in the moment, but the time in the future that you're going to be able to have to invest in other things. So a lot of times people want just like the quick calculation. There it is.

Starting point is 01:12:51 But I think ultimately it comes down to when you're tied up doing these things. We have to get laundry done. We have to cook. We have to eat. But there may be over here in this other vertical, like there's all this stuff that you haven't gotten to because you're busy doing all these little things and you've left off these big things. So even if it costs you more to have someone do these little things, but it means you

Starting point is 01:13:13 can invest more time and energy in these big payoffs over here? Hmm, you know, I would sit with that calculation for a little bit. Yeah, I know I have recently hired an assistant. And so I have one girl, she comes over, she does my hair and makeup for interviews, and I sit there and I study while she does my hair and makeup, because I used to spend an hour or an hour and a half doing that myself, and I couldn't multitask. Now I get to multitask while she's doing it. She's holding all of my clothes. She's helping me around the house, giving me more time to spend with my loved ones, and have a life. And all those things matter too, actually making, especially if you're an entrepreneur, if you're also doing chores and things like that, chances are you're not having any self-care time,

Starting point is 01:13:53 any time for yourself. And I don't know about you, but I love a clean house. It makes me more productive. It makes me more zen. I can focus better. So it's not just the function of having my clothes folded in my drawers and knowing where things are, but it's also that peacefulness that comes with the cleanliness, which is another thing that you're affording yourself when you outsource. Yeah. Okay. So one more question. And then we're going to close out. So I recently had Rachel Rogers on the show and I think you guys are friends. Yes. And she talks a lot about boosting your earning power rather than focusing on saving. So what's your view on that or striking the right balance between earning and saving? Well, I love a hybrid approach to a lot of things. And so I do think that

Starting point is 01:14:39 having your eyes on both is very, very important. I think a lot of people will choose, Elaine, I'm just saving or I'm just going to try to earn as much as possible. But you kind of can't do one without the other, right? You have to have, look, if you have enough savings for six months, you're good. Now focus all you want on how to make more and make more. I hope along the way are investing, some of that earnings. But I think that there is a bit of a scarcity mindset that comes when we're just focused on the savings. It'll never feel like enough. And I used to be like that. Like in college, I was like, I was actually the opposite. I was like, I just need to make all the money because I got to get my butt to France. I want to study abroad in Paris for a semester.

Starting point is 01:15:26 My parents won't pay for it. So I will. So I took on all these jobs. But I mismanaged it. I remember opening up my online bank account and there was a negative sign. in front of my bank bank balance. It was like how? And I just came home from like a really long shift at work. I was devastated and I realized that I was afraid of never making enough money. I should have also been afraid of not managing my money well and living within my means. Because you can't have one without the other. And while I love everything Rachel stands for and I think she's amazing and she wants all of us to be millionaires and so do I. I do think. I do think that. I do think that. I do think that there has to be, at least at some level, an understanding of, like, I need to save first

Starting point is 01:16:12 or I have to save while I'm doing this. But eventually, the pursuit to want to make more, it does eclipse the need to save once you have the savings. Yeah, totally. Okay, so I always end my show with two questions that we ask all of our guests. The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young improfitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? write down what scares you what scares you and i'll tell you what make it a fun scare like i'm afraid of making a million dollars i'm afraid of starting the business something exciting and scary i should say if you're really scared of it my offer is you probably should do it you know because your fears are sometimes just inching you closer to the things that you should do now be smart about it think about what

Starting point is 01:17:02 you want to protect, create a roadmap, but don't assume that what you're afraid of is a dead end. What you're afraid of could actually be the open door into what you need to do and where you need to step forth next. And Farnoush, what is your secret to profiting in life? And this can go beyond finance and business and the things we talked about today. My secret to profiting in life is having the eye on the longer goal. I used to be all about the quick wins, the immediate gratification, but I think that I've gotten really much better at investing in the steps that I know will pay off down the road.

Starting point is 01:17:48 I'm a big believer that things will pay off, and I know that things take time, and I trust that things will work out, but I have to keep moving. And that's my calculus. I love that. And where can our listeners learn more about you, get your new book? book, hear about your podcast. Thank you. You can grab the new book at A Healthy State of Panic.com. You can listen to me three times a week on So Money, wherever you love to catch podcasts. And on Instagram at Farnoosh Tarabi, I love to hang out in the DMs. If you have money

Starting point is 01:18:22 questions, that's where you can find me quick. Awesome. We'll stick all those links in the show notes. Farno, just was such an awesome episode. Thank you so much for all your wisdom. Thank you, Hala. Well, I hope you, guys were listening closely, Farnush gave us all a masterclass on how to overcome our fears and even turn them to our advantage. Fear, she said, is an opportunity to learn about yourself, what you want to protect, what makes you feel secure, and what your true goals are. And if we're honest with ourselves and about our fears, then they can serve as our compass for a better life. We're all afraid of things, especially financial insecurity. And some of us even carry around us the fears of our

Starting point is 01:19:06 parents. And so when it comes to our finances, Farnuch says it's important to trace the source of any fears we have about money. Where do they start? Why do we have them in the first place? Only by understanding the big picture and the stories we tell ourselves about money, can we start to overcome our fears and recognize them as our strengths. This is especially true when it comes to our fear of rejection. When Farnuch was laid off, she felt terrible for months. Then she started to make an inventory of all of her assets, from her master's degree to her connections, to her own curiosity. And that made her feel less fearful and more secure, capable of taking a leap of faith to work for herself. Like she said, the world is not going to wait for you. And sometimes your own fear of

Starting point is 01:19:54 rejection is pointing you toward a better place. Somewhere, you'll thrive. And speaking of thriving, that's what we love to do here at Young Improfiting Podcast. If you listen, learned, Improfited, be sure to share this episode with just at least one other person in your life. And if you did enjoy this show and you learned something, then drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcast. This makes a huge difference to us. Plus, we love to hear from our listeners. And if you prefer to watch your podcasts as videos,

Starting point is 01:20:22 you can find us on YouTube. Just look up Young and Profiting, and you'll find all of our episodes uploaded on there. As for me, you can find me on Instagram at Yap with HALA. that's YAP with H-A-L-A. Or you can search my name on LinkedIn. That's Hala Taha. And if you want to DM me, I recommend you reach out on Instagram.

Starting point is 01:20:42 That's the easiest way to get to me. I also want to thank my amazing production team for all their hard work. You guys are incredible. This is your host, Hala Taha, aka the podcast Princess, signing off.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Farnoosh Torabi: A Healthy State of Panic, Harness Your Fears to Build Wealth and Crush Your Goals | Finance E261

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