Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Grow Your Network and Influence with the 11 Laws of Likability | Human Behavior | E194

Starting point is 00:00:00 One of the things that we have to accept is that not everybody's going to like us. And for somebody like me, that was a really hard thing to accept because I wanted everyone to like me. But what you can do is enable people to see what is likable about you. I get a lot of like, I can't do this or I'm not good at this. And those are conclusion-based statements. I want everyone out there right now to think about for the rest of today as you speak, Are your statements action-based or judgment-based? I'm not a good public speaker, judgment.

Starting point is 00:00:33 I haven't figured out how to do this yet. Possibility. What is up, Young and Profiters? You're listening to Yap Young and Profiting Podcasts where we interview the brightest minds in the world and turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life. I'm your host, Halitaha, aka the podcast princess.

Starting point is 00:00:57 Thanks for listening and get ready. to listen, learn, and profit. Hey, Michelle, thanks for being on Young and Profiting podcast. I'm excited to be here. Young Improfitters, today on the show, we have Michelle Tillis Letterman. Michelle is a people expert, a motivational speaker, CEO, and founder of executive essentials, a firm that runs communication and leadership programs for businesses and professionals alike. Her company has worked with household brands like Deloitte,

Starting point is 00:01:36 Johnson, and Johnson, and J.P. Morgan. And she, She's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, NPR, and CBS, amongst other major publications. Michelle is also the author of numerous bestselling books centered around likability, communication, and networking. And Michelle, likeability is literally one of my favorite topics. In fact, my first episode ever on Young and Profiting five years ago was with Dr. Jack Schaefer on the topic of likeability. And needless to say, I'm super excited for this conversation because you are one of the top experts in the world on likability and networking. So thanks for being on again. And so let's start here.

Starting point is 00:02:11 You are an entrepreneur and you're top expert in your field. But at one point, you worked in corporate and actually in finance. So let's start here. I want to get to know you a little bit better. I want my listeners to know you a little bit better. And based on my research, you became disheartened by the lack of leadership and communication at your job. And at some point, you were the only woman on the trading floor and on the venture capital team.

Starting point is 00:02:34 And you realized that at heart, you were a teacher. and that's when you really start to go out on your own and start to design your dream career and what you call now as a connection creator. So tell us about how you ended up on this path and the events and thought process that led up to you becoming an entrepreneur. Well, you really did do your homework. I'm so impressed. You hit a lot of the things. The funny thing is I wanted to be a teacher when I was in sixth grade. Mrs. Norma Green, with her word of the day, just inspired me to want to be a teacher. But as somebody who grew up without financial security, I thought that's just not going to get me where I want to go to be young

Starting point is 00:03:09 and profitable. So I pursued a career in finance, and a lot of that was because I was good at it. And a lot of times we choose our careers based on our skill set, but not necessarily our passion. And so, yes, I followed finance. I was the only woman on the venture capital team. I was the only woman at all times on the trading floor with the exception of the secretary, and I was often mistaken to be a secretary. Yeah, good times, finance in the 90s. I was managing about $100 million for the bank. And we had people coming in left and right saying, you know, invest in my hedge fund and pitching me.

Starting point is 00:03:41 And I thought, yeah, this is not how you do it. And really wanted to just say, can I explain to you how to get money from me? And that's honestly where the work started. At the same time, being on that trading floor and seeing how the leadership was and how the communication wasn't, those two areas just said, there's something here. And I got to start to be what I, I always wanted to be, which is a teacher, but just in a way that affected not the youth of America, but the adults of it. Yeah. And so did you have any educational background in psychology or anything

Starting point is 00:04:16 like that? Because if you were in finance, it's such a big jump. So I'm just wondering how you made that jump. So I was an accounting major, but I was a writing in a communications minor. So it wasn't that I had no education there. I just didn't think that that was the major career. So that was my area of interest and passion. So I did have that education. But what I did and what anybody else out there can do is I am a continuous learner. So when I was working on the trading floor is actually when my transition started. My boss became the CEO of the Tokyo branch of the bank. And he said, Michelle, go hire a coach and go out to Japan and teach everybody how to deal with me. That literally was his instruction. And I was like, okay. So I hired some coach, paid her a ridiculous amount of

Starting point is 00:04:59 money compared to what I was making, then did everything she did and then some. So at the end of the week, and here's a key thing for anybody who's thinking about making that leap out of corporate and into entrepreneurship, that's self-confidence to know you can do it. At the end of the week, I went to the CEO and I said, I can do that. And he said, okay, but you still have to do everything else. And I said, okay. And he then sent me to take classes, work with Miles Martel, who, that name doesn't mean anything to you, but he actually was the coach for Reagan and Rumsfeld back in those days. So very prestigious speaker who helped me hone my skills. Anytime he wanted a class taught, he would say, Michelle, go take a class and then go teach us. So he literally paid for my education.

Starting point is 00:05:45 Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So basically, your corporate job allowed you to excel in this new path and you took it as sort of the opportunity. I talk about this all the time on the podcast, the opportunities that be. You had one role that you were paid for and one that you were passionate about, but they let you explore those opportunities. And honestly, when you're in a corporate job, there's nothing better than a corporate job that allows you to kind of expand outside of what you were hired for. Absolutely. And one of my vendors, so I was doing risk management and one of my vendors needed a director of marketing. And I was like, oh my God, all my friends from business school have been laid off. Tell me who you need, know, the connector mindset that I have. And I'm like,

Starting point is 00:06:23 I'll know somebody. And we're going through. They're telling me, they're talking to me and I'm like, wait a minute, are you offering me a job? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, I don't know anything about marketing. They're like, yes, you do, Michelle. When somebody believes in you and that's what I talk about connected leadership, because when you believe in somebody else, you elevate them to live up to those expectations. And so I said to them, I'm like, okay, but I'm doing this business on the side and this is a short-term plan. And oh, and I promised my boss, I'd still go to Japan. And they're like, that's fine, we'll wait. It's okay. You can take days off. And I was like, okay, I'm sold. And so I went to this startup risk management firm and I got my

Starting point is 00:07:03 appointment to NYU. So I would leave early on Tuesdays and Thursdays. My first client I landed was J.P. Morgan. Amazing. I would say like, hey, I'm going to take tomorrow off because I'm going to go teacher J.P. Morgan. They'll be like, good luck. Oh, my gosh. That's so supportive. Super cool. And it's about transparency. It's about communication. And it's also about fully showing up for them as well. Yeah, I can totally agree. I mean, when I was building this podcast and later the agency, I worked at Disney. And they were really supportive too. They didn't mind. I used to do interviews at lunch, but that's because I rocked my day job. You can't like slack on your day job. Then they're not going to want you to do that. They know that actually side hustles can make you feel more energetic, more happy, more like positive. And that's always good for employees to be more productive. Right. So a good employer knows that following your passion and encourage people to do that is actually. a good thing for productivity. All right, so let's get into the meat and potatoes of the interview because likability is my favorite topic out of all human behavior topics. And you have a very, very popular book called The 11 Laws of Likeability. And in it, you talk about how to discover

Starting point is 00:08:11 your most likable characteristics, start conversations, keep them going, make lasting positive impressions. And so I think it's the perfect guide for networking. So let's start off with the very basics, some definitions. How do you define likeability? And how does likeability, and how does likeability relate to networking? So the funny thing is, and I'm going to take that second question first, I didn't want to use the word networking in the book. The publishers made me. And they're like, it's for SEO, you have to have networking on the cover. It has to be in the title. And I said, but that's only half of it. They're like, well, what's the other half? I said, well, relationships. And so I actually coined the phrase relationship networking. And it's a way to kind of shift

Starting point is 00:08:47 how we think about this thing called networking, which has the word work in it, which makes people not want to do it, and we have all of these yucky associations with it. And so I just say that it's another way of making friends. And likeability is in all of us. It is self-defined and it is other-defined because we can't say, here's the qualities that make somebody likable. One publisher wanted to actually change the title of my book to 50 ways to make yourself likable. I'm like, that's not what I'm teaching. Because you can't make anybody like you. But what you can do is enable people to see what is likable about you. And to understand that what is likable about you for you is going to be different than for the guy on the corner. Yeah. I love that. And there's so much actionable advice

Starting point is 00:09:31 in terms of how we can do that. But before we get into that, you often say that people do business with people they like. That's actually the subtitle, I believe, of your book. Can you talk to us about why likability is a big factor in business? Because usually people think likability. They think friends, social. But why is that a big factor in business? Oh my God, it's huge. And there's so many statistics to back it up. Likeability is one of the six factors of influence, according to Robert Chedini's book. When you are likable, you are seen as more credit worthy, more trustworthy. Your ideas are received and acted upon. So you are listened to. You are more influential. You are seen as more innovative because you get credit for the ideas

Starting point is 00:10:12 that other people then expand on because of the connection you have with them. They receive them. They morph them. They play with them. and then it's like, oh, well, that was Michelle's idea. So all of those things about influence, impact, innovation, being listened to. Likeability also affects things like promotions and getting the job and getting the sale and getting the referral because all business is relationship business. And we often don't work for a company. We work for a person.

Starting point is 00:10:40 We don't quit a company. We quit a person. When we are hiring somebody, when we are thinking about who we want to work with, it is who. because a lot of people can do the same thing. And the differentiator is who that person is. And do I trust that they'll have my back? Do I trust that they'll step up when I ask for something? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:59 Another thing that's sort of often confused when it comes to networking and things like that, is that like networking this thing that you do for some ultimate outcome. I'm networking because I want to get a job. I'm networking because I want to find a husband, you know, whatever it is. why do you think that we need to not have this kind of approach to networking? So you saw me like kind of cringe when you said that. Yes. I hate the whole networking for need.

Starting point is 00:11:27 And that's why I hate the word because I just want you to connect. I just want you to build relationships, the ones that you want to, because those are the ones that are going to get you where you want to go. And the idea is that it's not strategic. And I know we have to be more intentional, but there's a difference between strategic and intentional. I can intentionally put myself in situations to be curious about somebody else. Law of curiosity is one of the laws of likeability to be interested in somebody else.

Starting point is 00:11:55 But I don't have to be thinking, well, you can't do anything for me. So next. If I'm enjoying my conversation with you, that's all that matters. Because I don't know who you are connected to. I don't know who you went to college with, who your neighbor is, who your next door cousin, well, he's removed is. Because when real connection happens, those other connections extend more easy. So when it comes to relationship networking, there's three shifts I want people to make.

Starting point is 00:12:21 The first shift is from talking about business. I always say, please don't get right down to business. Everyone hears that phrase, let's get right down to business. No, please don't. Get right down to personal. Get right down to the things that you really enjoy talking about, because when we connect on what we like to do rather than what we do, that's where connection forms. because connections are about common people, places, causes, values, experiences, interests, and not jobs. Yeah. So get away from just talking business, talk about anything.

Starting point is 00:12:55 Shift number two is from short term to long term, which is what you're saying. It is not about now or need. It is about relationship building and having that mindset. And the third is from, it's not about me, which is the other thing that you're saying. A lot of times when we're out there, it's what do I need? need and who do I want to connect with. But it's not about them either because that's just it's about me in reverse. It's about the relationship. I call it the dance, the exchange. And how do you add value for both sides? Yeah. Those are some great pointers. And one more kind of foundational

Starting point is 00:13:29 question before we move on to some of the actual laws. And that's this idea of being disliked. So what does it mean to be disliked? And what happens? And what happens? Why is it so hard to be around people that we don't like? I wouldn't know about being disliked. Actually, one of the reasons I wrote the book was because I had very polarizing responses from people. They loved me or they hated me, but there wasn't a lot in between. And I didn't know what I was doing. So one of the things that we have to accept is that not everybody's going to like us.

Starting point is 00:14:06 And for somebody like me, that was a really hard thing to accept because I wanted everyone to like me. And you asked before about the importance of likeability, and we talked about some of the things, but it also has things like you won't get sued for malpractice when your patients like you. And there's so many ways that it stretches into our results. But we have to accept that not everybody's going to like you, but not liking you doesn't mean they dislike you. And I want to give a, you know, people can be neutral. People can be indifferent.

Starting point is 00:14:38 And that's okay. and giving them space to maybe build a little bit of positivity over time. And I always say appreciate the differences, accept and focus on those that do want to be in your orbit. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. At YAP, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers.

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Starting point is 00:16:01 Just go to Indeed.com slash profiting right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash profiting. Terms and conditions apply. hiring indeed is all you need. Young and profitors. I know there's so many people tuning in right now that end their workday wondering why certain tasks take forever,

Starting point is 00:16:22 why they're procrastinating certain things, why they don't feel confident in their work, why they feel drained and frustrated and unfulfilled. But here's the thing you need to know. It's not a character flaw that you're feeling this way. It's actually your natural wiring. And here's the thing. When it comes to burnout, it's really about the type of work that you're doing.

Starting point is 00:16:42 Some work gives you energy, and some work simply drains you. So it's key to understand your six types of working genius. The working genius assessment or the six types of working genius framework was created by Patrick Lencioni, and he is a business influencer and author. And the working genius framework helps you identify what you're actually built for and the work that you're not. Now, let me tell you a story. Before I uncovered my working genius, which is galvanizing and invention, so I like to rally

Starting point is 00:17:09 people and I like to invent new things. I used to be really shameful and had a lot of guilt around the fact that I didn't like enablement, which is one of my working frustrations. So I actually don't like to support people one-on-one. I don't like it when people slow me down. I don't like handholding. I like to move fast, invent, rally people, inspire. But what I do need to do is ensure that somebody else can fill the enablement role,

Starting point is 00:17:32 which I do have, K on my team. So working genius helps you uncover these genius gaps, helps you work better with your team, helps you reduce friction, helps you collaborate better, understand, why people are the way that they are. It's helped me restructure my team, put people in the spots that they're going to really excel. And it's also helped me in hiring. Working Genius is absolutely amazing. I'm obsessed with this model. So if you guys want to take the Working Genius assessment and get 20% off, you can use code profiting. Go to working genius.com. Again, that's working genius.com. Stop guessing. Start working in your genius. You can't make everybody like you.

Starting point is 00:18:09 And I'm similar to you. I feel like when you're confident and bubbly, like some people just can't understand that. You know what I mean? And so I'm like you. I feel like people either love me or hate me, but like you said, you can't win them all. All you can do is just try your best and to be your best to be likable. So speaking of being bubbly, me and you are both very bubbly happy people. Do you actually need to be bubbly and perky to be likable? Oh, God, no. And actually, I think sometimes it's worked against me. I did a talk called you the brand. And I had, it was at my alma mater at Lehigh. And I was kind of greeting people as they came in because that's me. Hi, welcome. At the end of it, I let people kind of tell me what they think of me. And I say they don't have to be nice. And I asked them if that changed, because we

Starting point is 00:18:53 talk about how perceptions don't change very easily. Yeah. And this woman raised her hand, she said, I almost turned around and left. She said, you just came on too strong. And she said, I'm glad I didn't. Now I get it. But what she said was, you realized it. Because I think she physically like backed up. So what we talk about is productive energy. So one of the laws of likeability is the law of energy. And it is not about bubbly and perky and, oh my God, I want to slap that smile off your face. But it's about productive energy. And what is the valuable energy in the moment of my exchange with you? So are you in a place that needs a calming energy? Are you in a space that needs a validating energy? Do you need somebody to talk you off the ledge or to pump you up? And we talk about different energy responses and what are typical and what are productive. So I think this is going to relate to what I'm about to say next. So the law of authenticity, right? This driver of being authentic.

Starting point is 00:19:56 And what you're talking about energy right now, sort of like we need to read the room. But if you are like bubbly, perky and the person next to you is maybe really calm, do you become inauthentic to then try to get down to their level? like, what are you saying we do in terms of our energy? Like, do we match other people or do we just stay authentic to ourselves? So we want to meet somebody where they are, or just over or just under, depending on if their energy is in a productive place. If they're just somebody who's really chill and you come on super strong, you're not going to mesh. But it's not like you're going to be like, yeah, I'm chill. Like, that's not authentic. So if somebody is a little calmer, I might be like, oh, yeah,

Starting point is 00:20:40 I might bring my volume down a little bit. I might talk a little bit slower, but it's still going to have animation and it's still going to have my hands moving, but maybe they won't be moving quite as big. So it's just about flexing. And that's the temporary, momentary adjustment of your style to enable that connection to happen, to enable that likeability to be seen where it's not being drowned out by the boldness of a personality. Okay. So let's move. on to what I just mentioned, this law of authenticity. How can we discover what is authentic to ourselves? That's a really great question. And that just giving you an overview of the book, the first four chapters are about before the conversation, right, getting our head in the game. And so authenticity,

Starting point is 00:21:29 and I'll just name the four, authenticity self-image, the law of perception and the law of energy. They kind of work together. So how you see yourself is how others are going to see you. you can drive it, but you have to like you first. So when we think about authenticity, it's a little bit about that inner voice and how are we treating ourselves and how do we see ourselves? And I have a technique, it's actually in the second chapter of the law of self-image about being your own best friend because sometimes we need to shift that language that we're using with ourselves. And, you know, I've had people come up to me saying, well, I'm just a jerk. And so I'm being authentic. And I'm like, Yeah. Authenticity is not a excuse or permission to be a jerk. Authenticity's understanding

Starting point is 00:22:15 our unique charms, our strengths, and the things that work for and against us. And it's about deciding about what to bring forward in any given situation. But also it's about self-acceptance. Because authenticity, like, okay, we just said, you know, we're bold, we're perky, we're loud, I'm loud. You guys told me I had to turn the volume down of my microphone before we got on this podcast, because it was like, too loud, Michelle. So I have to learn that sometimes I need to just bring the volume down. I need to slow the speech. That doesn't mean I'm being inauthentic.

Starting point is 00:22:48 It means I'm being adaptable for somebody else to show that it's not just about me. It's about the relationship. And that's one of the shifts we're making. Yeah. And so I know that it's important throughout this whole process. Like you said, this is all about figuring out what's like about you. because not everything about you is going to be likable. So how do we go about figuring out what it is that people like about us?

Starting point is 00:23:13 Ask. I mean, here's the really simple thing in life is feedback is a really wonderful piece of information. And you'll laugh at me, but it's something we do in my household quite often. And when we're recording this, this is right after the high holy days where we think about what we want to be forgiven for and what we want to be better at in the new year. and this is like we have family feedback where we'll say like, hey, what do you want to work on this year? Or hey, this is the thing you should work on this year. And so you have people in your life that will give you this good information.

Starting point is 00:23:46 Your job is already giving you this information. Ask questions. Ask for specifics. Ask like a diverse group. So I always say, and I have an exercise in the book for like exactly how to do this, ask frenemies and exes. and you'll get some really great information, but really be careful about what you ask them.

Starting point is 00:24:08 Don't just say, you know, how would you describe me? Because then it gives them free reign to be mean, especially if they're not maybe your allies and advocates. Instead, say, what is one quality that you admire in me or what is one strength that you think I bring to the table? And so that you can start to see the positive things that even people who don't want to say nice things about you will still say about you.

Starting point is 00:24:28 Yeah, I love that dip. Ask your frenemies and ask your exes because you know that they're going to get. give it to you. They're going to let you know, especially what they don't like about you. That's funny. So in your book, you write that building strong relationships starts with abandoning the conventional me-based thoughts. You say it's not about you, it's about the relationship. You alluded to this in the beginning, but can you further explain why it's not about me or you? It's about the actual relationship. The relationship has, it's like its own entity and how you have

Starting point is 00:25:00 an exchange with somebody, how you kind of think about your interactions with somebody, it kind of has a life of its own. And when you think about shifting away from me, people always say, what are the most important laws in the book? Or they ask me for one, and I always give them two, because I can't choose. And we already started talking about one with authenticity, because you cannot connect, you cannot be likable unless you're being real. And people can feel them as they can see it. So authenticity is kind of like the foundational thread through all the other laws. And the other law I always say is the law. of giving. And so when we talk about the relationship having a life of its own, if you come into it

Starting point is 00:25:36 with this mindset of giving to give first, to give often, because you want to, not without expectation of something in return, or should say not with expectation of something in return, I will tell you, the original title of that chapter was law of reciprocity. And it just wasn't sitting right, because when I talk about that content, I'm not talking about give to get. I'm not talking about quid pro quo. And that's why we change the title to the law of giving, because it really is that mindset of how do I add value to you? How do I show you that I hear you, that I'm focused on you, that I'm curious about you, that I care about you, that I want to support you, that I want to help you. And when you feel that from me, you want to bring it back, but it's not because, right?

Starting point is 00:26:23 It's not like I have to. It's I want to. And sometimes, and oftentimes, when we think about giving, we can give in one direction, but we receive from another. And so that mindset of giving, it has to be always there for relationships to have foundation to grow on. And don't worry if it feels really one directional in either direction. Because if you bring that mindset to your relationships, even if sometimes you are the receiver, it gives you that permission. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:54 I have to say that, like, I hear this theme all the time in human behavior and gaining influence. it's really about showing that you care and being a caring, like being a good person, caring about other people, wanting to give to other people, having good intentions. To your point, not having like, this is the exact outcome that I want and I'm only friends with you for this specific reason. It's just actually caring about people. And to further show that you care about people, you also should be curious about them, right? So you talk about this law of curiosity in your book.

Starting point is 00:27:25 And people, they like to be asked questions about their life. and I heard that when people ask you, like when you're meeting somebody and they're like, what do you do? You actually skirt right around that question and you tell them what you did that weekend. So I want to dig into like the questions we should ask and all that kind of stuff to drive curiosity. But why do you do that? That's such a great tip. Well, one, because I have no idea how to answer the question of what I do. I'm like, well, it depends on the day of the week. I'm like, and so I always struggle with that elevator pitch or that like tight little sentence. that says, this is what I do. And I just never liked that question. And it goes back to the fact that

Starting point is 00:28:05 that's not interesting. And that's not what's going to make me connect with somebody. And that's not where I want to start my relationship. So when they say, what do you do? I say, well, for fun. Or I say, well, this weekend. Or I might say, for who? Because that's really another way to kind of put that mindset out of what do I do for someone. So yes, I love that. And it goes back to your point. like not getting straight down to business. It's like instead of getting straight down to business, you're like, no, I'm going to tell you something personal about me. And that's because maybe you're trying to find common ground. So maybe we can just switch and talk about this law of familiarity and similarity because I have a feeling that you bringing up those things also enables you to start to kind

Starting point is 00:28:51 of find common ground with the new people that you meet, right? So you're now talking about the anatomy of a conversation. And that's the middle part of the book. So we talk about the law. curiosity, the law of similarity, the law of listening, and the law of familiarity, or mood memory, I should say. Mood. Familiarities at the end. Mood memory. So when we think about the anatomy of a conversation and people who are like, especially I get, I have a lot of content for introverts. If there are introverts that are listening out there right now are going, yuck, no, thank you, not me. Uh-uh. Like, I'm going to just not listen to this episode. I got to tell you that introverts have some of the most innate skills when it comes to connection.

Starting point is 00:29:28 and to understand that when we say be curious or we say be social, we don't mean social butterfly. We don't mean work the room. We may put yourself in the position to be curious about one other human in any environment, in any space. And introverts are really, really good at that. They're great at asking questions. They're great at listening. They're great at the one-to-one. So don't worry about what it looks like for anybody else.

Starting point is 00:29:50 And do it your way, first of all. And if you say, I don't know how to start a conversation, my answer is always start by being curious and ask a question you actually want to know the answer to. And then for the introverts, I'm going to give you a little more of a cue here. I also want you to ask a question that you're willing to answer because a lot of times with introverts, we'll ask and will ask and it becomes an interrogation. It could, right, because you're doing this great thing of being curious and drawing information in, but we also need a little self-disclosure. And when I refer to the dance, this is what I mean. The dance in that conversation of ask and listen, right?

Starting point is 00:30:27 love listening. You got to listen so you can probe and ask more questions, but then listen and share. So we start with the ask. We then go to listen, listen and probe, listen and share. And through that, we're looking for that similarity because people like, people like them. Easy. People like people like them. Now, this is great. It isn't great in some ways, but it's great in some ways. What I want to challenge people with is don't go for the obvious. We're both women. We're both of this age. We're both of this background, we're both of this area, whatever view, whatever industry, right? Those are simple. I want you to kind of be a detective and try to figure out what's not obvious about what we have in common. Those common values, experiences, causes, passions, dreams, destinations, right? All of those

Starting point is 00:31:18 things. And so it's a little bit like a scavenger hunt and that curiosity then really drives a conversation, but we actually need to be willing to give information as well. Yeah. And I know that you often talk about three types of listening. And I was just talking about this. Do you know who Jim Quick is? Yes. So I just had Jim Quick on my show. And we were talking about memory and it's one of these likeability factors, which is showing that you care, right? That you care enough to even remember somebody's name. So it's not just enough to listen. You actually have to recall information. and throughout the conversation, prove that you're actively listening and that you care about them enough to actively listen. So I thought these three types of listening really kind of elaborates

Starting point is 00:32:05 on this point, if you want to explain what that is. Absolutely. Okay, we got listening in, listening out, and listening intuitively. So listening in is where we are 80% of the time. What it means is we're taking in the information and we're kind of putting it through the filter of how does this apply to me and what can I share. And the reason why listening in is great is because it gives us that enabled, I used to say ability to say the Me Too, you two, but now Me Too has a whole different meaning, so I can't say that anymore. But the idea that you're sharing something that I might have had a similar experience so that law of similarity exists. And so when we listen in, we're listening to find those moments of similarity and to have a share and to create

Starting point is 00:32:43 some kind of common connection. And so it might be, if I say, what's your favorite color and you say blue, I might say, well, mine's pink. And so I'm looking. And so I'm looking. listening in and I'm sharing something and that's fine. Listening out is about from their perspective. So in is my perspective, out is their perspective. So if you said my favorite color is blue, I might probe and say, well, why is that your favorite color? Or what is it about blue that you like? And I'm so trying to understand more about your choice of blue. And so I'm listening outward and trying to get a deeper understanding from their perspective. Now listening intuitively is something that we do probably the least. And it's something that we want to kind of be careful with

Starting point is 00:33:27 because sometimes it could be like, you know, a little bit too much. Because what we're doing is we're listening with our eyes and our ears. We're picking up on things that aren't said. And when we talk to something, they say, my favorite color is blue, you might say, I get the sense that you find blue really calming. And just even as you said blue, I saw your body just relaxed, does Blue give you that sense of calm? And so we're checking our assumptions, but we're saying, I'm picking up on something from you. I'm feeling something. And so when you listen intuitively, it's to share what you're getting, but also to check in that you're getting it right. So one of the conflicting things that I have in my mind as you're talking about this is I

Starting point is 00:34:07 learn a lot about negotiation and how to gain influence and interviewing all these experts. And Chris Voss came on my show. And he was. talking to me about the fact that when you are probing, asking questions, he says that you actually shouldn't make it about yourself ever. Like so if somebody says, my color is blue and you're like, oh, my, blue's my favorite color too. Or you're not supposed to bring it back to being about yourself. And I've gotten this feedback where like, I remember my ex-boyfriend used to be like, I can never say anything without you saying like you've done it to or like, you always relate it back to you. And that can seem arrogant or like inconsiderate.

Starting point is 00:34:46 So what are your thoughts on that? Like how do we balance being relatable and saying, yeah, I've done this too without making it all about you? I think it's a really interesting point. I don't think it should be never bringing it back to yourself because then what comes out is, hey, I don't know anything about you. And I don't feel comfortable with you because you weren't sharing and I shared and I was vulnerable and I gave you trust and you gave me nothing. So now there's a difference between me just trying to connect and me trying to negotiate.

Starting point is 00:35:15 So I'm going to take the negotiation out of it because when you're negotiating, that's a whole different dynamic. But when we are just building relationship, absolutely, it comes back to you at times. And that's what I mean by the dance. So when we're in that anatomy of a conversation and we're in the phase of listening and you want to balance those options of listening and probe to learn more to do it from the listening out perspective and then sprinkle in the listening in, which is that commonality. And so it could be, oh, you know, I support an animal charity as well. Have you heard of stray from the heart? Or have you heard of homeless pets for something? And so no. And then you could be, so what charity do you work with? So you bring in a little bit of, hey, this is mine. And do we have that in common? No. Okay, what's yours? Have I heard of that? Tell me more about yours. And so you will create this balance where there is an exchange of information. Yeah, and I think it's important to know if you're more of like an overshare or a bragger versus the opposite. So like I am definitely on that spectrum of like I like to tell people what I do and talk about it. And so I probably need to tone that down, whereas somebody who might not be as confident or might not ever share anything about themselves and needs to tone that up. So very good points here.

Starting point is 00:36:34 Okay, so let's dive deeper into this listen intuitively concept. So it's not just about what we say. In your book, you say that the book, Silent Messages, says that 7% of somebody liking you is verbal, 38% is vocal, and 55% visual. This came from psychologist Albert Moravian, who wrote silent messages. So again, 7% verbal, 38% vocal, 55% visual. And basically, that means that the words that come out of our mouth have no impact or little impact on our likability. And to me, it was really surprising to find out how much tone of voice had to do with everything. Like, I didn't even think that was really a fact.

Starting point is 00:37:13 I've always heard like body language and things like that. So how do we keep our three V's verbal, vocal, visual, in sync when trying to make a good impression and why is that important? So let me explain the statistic a little bit more because a lot of times this gets misinterpreted to the point where we say the words don't matter. Words matter. Absolutely words matter. when there's incongruency between these three things, the words are useless. So it's about the congruency between your verbal, vocal, and visual. So if some teenager comes home and says everything is fine, those words are meaningless if they are like slumped over and everything's fine.

Starting point is 00:37:53 We know it's not. And even if the voice sounds the same, the body language is what is going to be what's most believable, and then the voice and then the words. So first, it's a congruency. Second, it's for face-to-face communications. When we are not face-to-face, now we're face-to-face, we have a visual component, even if we're not in person. With phone, the visual aspect does not disappear, even though you can't see them. The voice doubles, but the visual component is still there, because if you think about it, you're visualizing where they are, what they're body, like you can say, is somebody slumped back? And I know if I go, if I go,

Starting point is 00:38:29 far from the mic, my voice will get far, so I won't slump. But if they're like, like this, and they're really bored, we can pick up on, we can feel it in their voice. So the voice gives us a visual indication. Okay, so when we think about verbal vocal visual, how do we think about them? When I talk about verbal, I always say actionable, neutral, or positive language. And the reason that is is because our words influence us. And even in the way we say them, they will influence how somebody else responds to us. And then that response and it starts to amplify itself. So I never want you to think that words don't matter.

Starting point is 00:39:10 They do. Word choice is so important, but it's the congruency of these things working together. Yeah. And I have to imagine that this also has to do with thinking positively, going back to what you're saying with being authentic, if your start is that you speak badly to yourself, you think negatively about yourself, when you show up in conversations and try to connect with people, I think they'll feel that energy that you feel these ways about yourself and they'll feel the unconfidence and the insecurities.

Starting point is 00:39:43 And so it's so important to your point to start with loving yourself and being your own best friend. Absolutely. And I'm thinking about hedging language. So that idea of minimizing what's coming out of your mouth. It's words like, well, only just my opinion, simply, I'm not sure, but I was just sort of, all of that minimization that we put forth before we actually put our idea or our thought out there says, well, I'm not sure you believe you, so why should I believe you? So when we think about all of this verbal vocal visual and what we're putting out there and the

Starting point is 00:40:22 word choice, how you frame it to yourself matters. So, for example, I have teenage boys. God help me, I have two kids in high school. And I get a lot of, like, I can't do this or I'm not good at this. And those are conclusion-based statements. I want everyone out there right now to think about for the rest of today as you speak, are your statements action-based or judgment-based? And so saying I can't do this is a judgment. Saying, I haven't figured out how to do this yet is an action. It gives you momentum. It gives you the opening, the possibility for learning it, for getting better.

Starting point is 00:41:04 I'm not a good public speaker. Judgment. I'm not a good public speaker yet. Possibility. Action. The idea that we can move on this. And now a quick break from our sponsors. Hello, young improfitters.

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Starting point is 00:45:39 I think that was a really great example. It really helped put it all together for me. So I feel like this is a perfect segue to get into mood memory. This was one of the most fascinating concepts for me in your book. I had never heard of it before. And so I'd love for you to break down this law and give us some key. key tips on how to make sure we leave every interaction with positive mood energy. This is the fourth phase of the anatomy of a conversation and the fourth chapter in that

Starting point is 00:46:02 middle section of the book. So we were curious, we listened, we found some similarities, and then we get to the close of that conversation. And that's where it could just kind of fall off the cliff if we don't have an awareness of mood memory. And mood memory is simply the idea that people remember far more how you made them feel than anything that you said. You walk away. And like, for example, when I met you, I met you at Marshall Goldsmith's book launch party. I don't remember what we talked about. I just remember how I felt and the impression that you made. But I couldn't tell you what our conversation was really about.

Starting point is 00:46:34 And so that's the idea behind mood memory. How did you make someone feel? And do they feel like they want to be in your presence again? Or do they feel like they want to run screaming from you? And the funny thing is, I can't believe I'm going to tell you this. But my husband told me that when we were just friends, that I was really in. intense and like he wanted to be like, whoa, you know, like literally like back in for me. And like it was a shock to me because they asked me for business help.

Starting point is 00:47:03 This is something I'm good at. So I dove in and I was like a machine gun trying to help them. And they were both like, oh no, this is too much. I'm and his business partner. So understanding how you make somebody feel and looking for, remember, so all these things are intertwined. This is not a order. I do this one, then I do this one. All of these laws are interrelated and they enable each other. And so that listening with your eyes and your ears and listening intuitively and being flexible, being authentic, but adaptable to somebody else to enable them, you can see how these all come together in that mood memory moment. So when you are closing a conversation

Starting point is 00:47:43 down, make sure you're not dismissing. Make sure you're not starting to be like, yes, I'm done here. Okay, nice meeting you. And then we're moving on. Yeah. But think about, you know, in that last phase, what your follow-up is. Because the only way to get to the last half of the book, which is moving from conversation to connection, when we talk about familiarity and giving impatience and all that, is to find the follow-up.

Starting point is 00:48:08 Because if you leave the conversation there, even if they feel good, if there's no follow-up, then it's going to go, you know, want, want, wah, wah. Yeah. And I think people remember the beginning and the end mostly of, conversations, not so much the middle, right? And so to your point, it's really, a lot of people start off great. You know, they got a smile, a head tilt, they're, you know, being on their best behavior. And then to your point towards the end, you might just like get distracted and want to move on to the next thing quickly, but you got to remember to leave on a high note.

Starting point is 00:48:38 What other like really actionable tips can you give us to, to, because this mood memory thing is, I think, really important. It's basically what your first impression was or for, after that meeting. Yeah, it's what walks away with you. And you're right. The attention curve looks like a smiley face. High at the beginning and high at the end and it drops in the middle. Our goal in conversation in everything that we do is to make it more like a wave. So we kind of have ups and downs in that in that attention curve. Okay. So when we're thinking about mood memory, think about the things that make you feel good. What makes somebody feel good? Hey, they were interested in me. Hey, they were curious about me. hey, we had something in common.

Starting point is 00:49:17 Hey, they told me that they're going to follow up with this thing. Hey, they were not to introduce me to that person. So as we think about finding that place that I could add value, that could be your follow-up. Remembering something specifically that they said or something that they wore. Like sometimes on a back of a card, I'll write, oh, fun pink sweater with a cold shoulder. Something to help or where they sat or something that they asked me or just to bring it back. They feel listened to. They feel heard.

Starting point is 00:49:47 They feel appreciated. Asking advice, even in a first meeting, it could make somebody feel valuable. And everybody wants to feel valuable. And so it could be like, oh, you're from this area. We're visiting any great restaurants you'd recommend. Oh, thank you. I'm going to let you know if we go there. And it's a light touch.

Starting point is 00:50:06 It's a light follow up. But it keeps you connected. Yeah. I love those tips. All right. So funny enough, you mentioned, for my listeners, may not know. Michelle's actually one of my clients. I run her LinkedIn management and I met her at another client events, Marshall Goldsmith. And my last question for this section on likeability

Starting point is 00:50:26 before we move on to your new book, Connector's Advantage, was something that I thought could tie it all together. So you met me, you liked me, you hired me for something that you didn't even know you wanted, I think. I didn't want it. I wasn't looking for it. Yeah. So let's talk about that interaction. I hadn't read your book at the time, but I did have some, a little bit of training with all the experts that I've met in my life. So what made you like me? And maybe we can tie some of these themes together. The funny thing is, I don't remember a lot of the conversation. And that's what I said. Which is what we talked about in the middle of the thing. You don't remember. I don't remember a lot of the conversation. I remember thinking you had confidence. So you had a strong self-image.

Starting point is 00:51:09 You were being authentic. You were bringing some of those laws of likeability. But you also shared your perception of me. I do remember you giving an indication of a fit. Like, you're the kind of person I want to work with. And so that's part of the mood memory. You made me feel good about me as if, like, I don't feel this way about everybody. You're special. Whether I was or not, it worked. Clearly, I'm your client. You are. So there was some of those elements, and it didn't hurt that we were about the same height. And so standing in a party with a lot of people and having somebody to talk to eye to eye makes you feel more connected. And so for those people that are really tall or really short and you have this challenge where you're like this or it doesn't feel as connected,

Starting point is 00:51:58 finding a way to get on eye level with somebody physically makes you feel more connected. There's an impact of mood memory, that body language piece that is just we don't even realize it. But that whole idea of mirroring, part of mirroring is, to make the body feel comfortable. And so those things happen naturally for us. Yeah. And I feel like I could come up with a couple other reasons, like kind of just reflecting.

Starting point is 00:52:21 Like you said, we're the same height. We're both from New Jersey. So familiarity, similarities, right? We both know Marshall. So we didn't talk about this yet. Maybe we can kind of touch on it, this third party referral, basically. Even though he didn't, maybe he always touts me

Starting point is 00:52:38 and things like that. But just a fact that I worked for Marshall and I was at this party probably influenced it to a degree. So talk to us about that. How do third parties who kind of support you or recommend you, how does that impact your likability? 92% of people trust like recommendations or referrals and you're four times more likely to buy when referred by somebody. So that's what Yelp and Amazon reviews and all those things are all about is having some validation that you're not alone in your thinking of something. But you're right.

Starting point is 00:53:13 We were in a invite-only environment of a community of people that was a trusted community. So just being in that community puts you at a place of open and willing to believe in the people who are in that space. So that helps. And that's the idea. There's a couple sub-laws in the book. The Law of Association is one of them. And so within the law of the law of the law.

Starting point is 00:53:35 the law of similarity is the law of association. It's that logic. If A, then B, if B then C, then A then C, he trusts you, then I trust you. And so even without a referral, knowing who you worked for, who you worked with, and I think I shared with you, you work with somebody else from the MG100, Luke, and I called Luke before, and I said, hey, I just wanted before I sign on the dotted line, tell me what you think. So getting that validation, it's a transfer of trust. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to uphold such a great reputation and to treat all of your clients well because there'll be your biggest advocates for your business referring you and things like that. And when you're recommended from someone else, it means so much more than you

Starting point is 00:54:20 just saying that you're good. You know, if somebody else says that you're good, that person's going to believe them more than they'll believe you if you said the same thing. So really big points, great points to help us in our business. Let's in on these last few minutes talk about your latest book, The Connectors Advantage. And Michelle, I think I'm going to have you back on to dive super deep into this topic because this is like sort of the advanced course in networking. It goes one step further. It's a great continuation. For anybody who has not read the 11 laws of likeability, I highly, highly recommend it. And then once you read that, go on to read the Connectors advantage. So, Michelle, you call yourself a connection creator and you start off the book saying that

Starting point is 00:55:01 most people call you lucky. And you say, you're not lucky. you're just a connector. So talk to us about that. What is a connector in your own words? And why did you feel like you needed to write an entire book about the topic? I was so excited to write this book. My husband actually is like, you're writing another book. Why? And I was like, because I have something I have to say. And he's like, damn, that's a good answer. Because writing a book is not easy. But this is a follow-ups of the 11 laws of likeability. And it's because a connector is somebody who prioritized their relationships in everything that they do. And that's the most simple way I can put it is just prioritizing and putting relationships first. And the advantage,

Starting point is 00:55:41 right, so I talk about the connection's advantage, it's faster, easier, better. Whatever it is you're working on, you're going to get there faster, easier, and better. And that's why I tell that opening story of how I was working within five days of being laid off without actually even looking for a job. Because it isn't about, oh, you're right. I mean, don't get me wrong. I believe that people have right time, right place, but I also believe people make the right time and the right place. And when you lay a foundation of connection and build relationships and you embody these laws of likeability and these mindsets of a connector, your network is there when you need it. Yeah. I know that Jordan Harbinger, who's a mutual friend, he calls his network his job security

Starting point is 00:56:25 insurance. He's just like, I'll never be out of a job because I have an incredible network. And it's so true. So you actually say that there are a few different types of connections. connectors based on my reading, it feels like connectors is basically a spectrum, you know, starting from people who are non-connectors to people who are super connectors. I'm a super connector. I think you're a super connector. Tell us about the spectrum and where do you think people should be on the spectrum? That's an interesting question because I don't think anyone should be anywhere, but what I want people to understand is you're already on it. There's very few people that are non-connectors that don't believe in the value of relationships. I actually do have a coaching

Starting point is 00:57:03 client who says, I don't believe in the value of relationships. And I was like, why did you hire me? But the truth is, she doesn't really feel that way. It's very interesting. And I've been working with for quite some time. And she's fabulous. But when we think about, and this is a really great way to tease up for the next time I come on and I'm happy to come back. The connector spectrum starts with non-connector, but then it very quickly moves to emerging connector. An emerging connector, is somebody who understands the value of relationships, but doesn't necessarily know how to kind of really do it yet. A responsive connector, somebody who has a lot of incoming, or even a little incoming, hey, could you do this for me? Hey, could you introduce me to this person?

Starting point is 00:57:44 And they respond with a yes. But they're not initiating it yet. So as we climb up the spectrum, the greater the advantage becomes, the faster, the easier, the better, right? The further up the spectrum. So it depends on where you are, what you, you know, where you want to be and what your your goals are of how far up you need to climb. I think getting to acting is a great place for anybody. The first lever to switch to get from, you know, responsive or emerging to acting is simply to be more initiative, to take more initiative by you coming up with who you can connect, you coming up with how you can add value, you coming up with the ideas and not just responding, but going in both directions. That's an acting connector. That's a great landing place for people to strive for.

Starting point is 00:58:27 The upper echelons is pulling the other lever, and the other lever is depth and breadth. So when we go deep within an industry, within a geography, within a geography, within a function, whatever it might be, when we go deep, that's a niche connector. My sister is the example I use in the book. Everybody in New Jersey, real estate and real estate law knows my sister. She is not a lawyer, but she serves that market and runs the entire state and everybody in that industry knows her. And so that's a niche. Now, she's starting to go broad.

Starting point is 00:59:02 She's kind of becoming more than just a niche connector. She's becoming a super connector. And a superconnector is when we go broad. And that means I know people up and down the ladder across industry, across demography, across geography. And if I cross my country's borders, I'm a global super connector or a global niche connector. So that's the spectrum.

Starting point is 00:59:22 Now that you broke it down, I feel like I'm actually a niche connector. I'm probably in the podcasting and social. social world, but not necessarily still have room to grow, which is good to know, because we're having you back on to talk about this because there's way too much to cover in the last four minutes on just this book. So we're going to have you back on, Michelle. Go ahead. Well, I'll tell you, there is a quiz, a three-minute quiz to figure out where you are right now. You'll put it in the show notes. And it's 10 quick questions to say, here's where I'm at. And here's what I might do to keep going. And I would venture to say, you might be a niche connector, but you are probably pretty close to

Starting point is 00:59:57 being a super connector because it's not just who you know in your industry, but your clients brought in you. Oh, that's true. I think I might guess, actually, too. Exactly. You're right. You're right. I'm super connector. What can I say? So, Michelle, it's no wonder why you are one of Forbes top 25 networking experts in the world. Thank you so much for all your great wisdom today. We always end the show with two last questions. Then we do something fun at the end of the year. So the first one is, what is one actionable thing my young improfitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? Reach out to somebody. If you want to make it even bigger, reach out to five people today. Send a note, send a text, comment on their profile. Connect. Love it. And what is your secret to profiting in life?

Starting point is 01:00:44 I can tell you the first thing that came to my mind is never be hungry. To understand that you have to choose what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to. And if you don't feel literally, you know, or figuratively hungry, you can really be very selective. Choose the clients and the engagements that are right for you. And that's where you will thrive. So you're saying like, be so established and have such a good foundation that you can choose what you want to do. That's really nice to, like, not everybody can just start there. But I started with that mentality. I never started with I'm desperate. I'm hungry. I need to say yes to anything and everything. I was always like, no, that's not a fit for me. So even at the beginning, get really clear on what you want to say yes to and what you should say no to. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Michelle.

Starting point is 01:01:38 This is such a great conversation. I know we're out of time. Can't we wait to have you back to talk about connectors and really dive deep on that. And thanks for coming on Young Improfting Podcast. Thanks for having me. a great episode, the connection creator, Michelle Letterman, Yap, fam. I'm totally obsessed with topics like likability and networking because I think it's the secret weapon for our careers. Because when we do business, we do it through relationships. We select who we want to engage with. We select who we come back to for more. And the ability to make a real connection and make other people like you is such a big part of your success or failure in business. Harnessing likability is all about

Starting point is 01:02:20 uncovering what is authentically likable in ourselves and in the people we want to connect with. So when you're networking, do your best to recognize what's likable about the other person as well as yourself. You can find out what's likable about others by asking good questions. Ask others about themselves more than you talk about yourself. And then listen actively. People love to talk about themselves and they like those who listen to them do it. When you ask people about themselves, try to rely on open-ended questions that start with what, how, or why and avoid questions that people could just say yes or no to. What how or why questions prompt people to speak extensively about themselves so you get to learn about them. So for example,

Starting point is 01:03:00 some good questions are, what do you do? What are you passionate about? How did you hear about this event? How do you guys know each other? Why did you choose this field of work? I suggest that you prepare some generic open-ended questions the next time you have a networking event so you can practice this technique and get started off on the right foot. Once you get people talking, you're going to get information, which is like currency in a relationship. Then you can draw on your similarities, which makes you an ally to the other person. Some other things to keep in mind when you're networking with other people is establishing solid eye contact, smiling often, nodding to indicate your approval of what the other person says. And you can also ask for advice. That's another good way

Starting point is 01:03:42 to affirm other people's value. And the last thing I'll say is people love compliments. So keep it positive, compliment the other person sincerely when you can. It's important to keep in mind that networking is about wanting to connect with others. It's not about getting a result or an outcome or achieving some sort of goal. In fact, when a lot of people hear the word networking, they cringe. They have a negative reaction to it because they think it's a test. They think of it as manipulation or winning people over.

Starting point is 01:04:11 And let's face it, if you, you think of networking as something that is transactional or something that helps you achieve a goal, it's going to feel like work. It's going to feel like a chore. And it's going to be hard to find the motivation to do it. And you won't be very good at it. So you need to lose that win people over transactional attitude and instead try to seek genuine relationships that have no ulterior motive. So don't think networking with people. Think connecting with people instead. After all, the only way to make yourself likable is by being honest and authentic. Which leads me to the law of authentic. always be authentic young improfitors. Here's the thing. People can see right through phonies.

Starting point is 01:04:49 To be likable, you have to exhibit your true self. And if you present yourself artificially, people are going to tell. When you try to be something that you're not, you're going to feel awkward and uncomfortable and what you feel inside will reflect on the outside. People won't like you and they will feel that something's off. So no matter the setting, show up as your true self. But here's the problem. If your true self is someone that you hate or someone, that you're not proud of, you're not going to be liked either. So you also need a strong self-image. Michelle's law of self-image says that if your self-image is consistently positive, you're going to attract other people's positive feelings. And if your self-image is negative, it's going to be

Starting point is 01:05:28 difficult to get others to feel good about you. So be kind to yourself, yeah, fam. Stop that negative self-talk. And here's another homework assignment. I want you to sit down and write down your nice qualities. What do you like about yourself? Ask your friends and family for their opinions on your best qualities if you're struggling to come up with the list. And if you have a hard time breaking the habit of negative self-talk, I have a whole episode about that topic. It features Ethan Cross and its number 122, harness your internal chatter. If you want to learn more about how to stop negative self-talk, you should check out that episode after you listen to this podcast. Well, young and profitors, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And if you learned something new today,

Starting point is 01:06:09 do me a favor and write us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or a rating on Spotify, or just drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We're almost at 1,000 reviews on Apple, so I'm super thankful for everybody who's contributed. It's the number one way to thank me and everyone on the Yap team. You guys can also find me on Instagram and TikTok at Yap with Hala, and we're also on YouTube. If you like to watch podcasts, you can find us there. A special thank you to my production team and all their hard work to put on the show.

Starting point is 01:06:38 I really appreciate you guys. This is your host, Halitaha, signing off.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Grow Your Network and Influence with the 11 Laws of Likability | Human Behavior | E194

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