Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jack Schafer Reveals FBI Tactics For Making People Like You More | Human Behavior | YAPClassic

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Think about the warmest, most inviting person you know. Chances are, their kindness spans far beyond their words. The most influential people are often very intentional with their body language, facial expressions, and tone.  There are specific ways you can alter your body language, approach new people, and present information to make yourself more likable, and in this episode of YAP Classic, Dr. Jack Schafer will teach you how. Dr. Jack Schafer is a retired FBI agent who is an expert in human behavior and likability. Hala and Jack dive into Jack’s Golden Rule of Friendship and the methods Jack uses to befriend others. They discuss how to make yourself more likable through the use of eyebrow flashing, eye gaze, open posture, and opening in the feet. They also dive into the relationship between body language and mindset and how to mitigate arguments without fueling the fire.  Topics Include: - Jack’s career journey  -Elements of the Friendship Formula -Jack’s Golden Rule of Friendship  - Eyebrow flashes  - Importance of eye contact - Ways to appear more approachable  - What you learn by watching somebody’s lips  - Blink rate  - Empathic statements  - What does the position of somebody’s feet mean?  - Curiosity hook  - What does a person’s walk tell you about their personality?  - How your body language influences your mindset - The laws of romantic attraction  - Different types of common ground  - Diffusing arguments  - The anger cycle   - Is body language universal?    - And other topics… Dr. Jack Schafer is a professor at Western Illinois University in the Law Enforcement and Justice Administration Department. He formerly served as a Special Agent for the FBI as a behavioral analyst for the FBI’s National Security Behavioral Analysis Program. He has authored six books and has published numerous articles in notable professional and popular journals. He is also a contributing writer for Psychology Today Magazine.   Resources Mentioned: Jack’s Books: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Jack+Schafer&i=audible&ref=dp_byline_sr_audible_1  Jack’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackschafer/  Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackschafer?lang=en  LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass Join Hala's 2-day LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass and use code PROFITING at checkout to get 55% off! yapmedia.io/course Sponsored By:  LightStream - Go to lightstream.com/yap and apply now to get a special interest rate discount and save even more. Shopify - Sign up for a free trial at shopify.com/profiting The Jordan Harbinger Show - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations Sabio - Visit sabio.la/YAP for a $1,000 scholarship towards the cost of their bootcamp at Sabio! Swag.com - Go to swag.com/yap and get 10% off your order JustWorks - Take a look at Justworks' transparent pricing by visiting justworks.com/pricing More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review -  ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Join Hala's LinkedIn Masterclass - yapmedia.io/course

What is up my beautiful Yapam? Today on Young and Profiting podcast, we're going to throw it back to my second interview with the brilliant Dr. Jack Schaefer. Dr. Jack Schaefer is one of my favorite guests to have on this podcast. That's why I've had him on about four times already. And as some of you may know, Dr. Jack Schaefer was my very first guest here on Young and Profiting,

and I am forever grateful for him coming on and taking a chance on me. And Dr. Jack Schaefer is a retired FBI special agent. he's also an expert on likeability and influence. He learned all these tactics for getting people to like him because he used to have the job of having to convert spies and get them to be on our side. And so his job was to get the enemy to like him. So he really learned how to do this stuff.

And that's why I love interviewing him because he's so good. He's also the author of two books, The Truth Detector, which is his latest release. And he also is the author of a classic. bestselling book called The Like Switch, which is one of my all-time favorite books. I read that book about twice a year. It's so good. In this episode, you're going to learn how to become more likable by learning friend signals

that leverage your body language and your facial expressions. We'll talk about using empathetic statements to increase your likability to not only show that you're listening to the other person, but also show that you care. And we'll even learn his top tips for attracting potential romantic partners and so much more. If you want to become a more likable person, this episode is one you won't want to miss. Hey everyone, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. I'm here with Dr. Jack Schaefer. He is the author of The Like Switch. And I'm really excited about this show because Jack was actually my first guest ever on Young and Profiting Podcasts. To give an introduction of our relationship, I wanted to just share a nice story about how we actually met. So when I was first thinking about having the podcast, young and profiting, I reached out to about 10 authors, and Jack was one of them. I wanted to have my first show on First Impressions. I thought that would be the perfect topic for our first episode.

And so I reached out to all these experts, and Jack Schaefer was one of them, as well as Dory Clark. And I had zero experience. I had zero credibility in the podcast world, but I had a dream. And so I emailed them. I wrote them a lengthy email, basically begging and pleading for them to come on my show. I told them I had a former website that was fairly popular and I did really well. I had like 50 female bloggers under me. I also told them I had some radio experience, some online radio shows, but it was my first podcast ever. And I asked them to take a chance on me. And Dr. Jack Schaefer and Dori Clark were the two people who did take a chance on me. And since then, I've become a top 10 self-improvement podcast and my show gets thousands of downloads each episode. And so Jack and Dory are

two people who I'm like forever grateful for for taking a chance on me. And I just wanted this to be a lesson to everyone that when you're first starting out on something, you can shoot for the stars because there are people like Jack and Dory who will take a chance on you. And since then, I've been able to secure such great guests because of their credibility. So thank you so much, Jack. You're welcome. Congratulations on your success. Thank you. And do you always take a chance on everyone or was there something special about me? Well, I take a chance on pretty much anybody I believe in because people have taken a chance on me. And it's helped my career long tremendously.

So I want to pay that forward. Yeah. If somebody does a favor for you and you end up making it, make sure you go back and pay it forward and, you know, give them something in return when you can, when it makes sense. You are the author of a like switch. You are a cop turned FBI agent turned also. turned professor. Tell us about your career journey. That's very different skills. How did you end up becoming an FBI agent? I think that's really, really interesting. And then how did you become, you know, an author and things like that? What was that transformation like? Well, it's kind of

accidental. I just graduated from university and I didn't have a job. And a friend of mine came by and asked me for a go out and have a drink with them. I told them, sure, I'd be happy to do that. And then he said, but he wanted to stop by the Hinsdale Police Department first to get an application for a police officer because he wanted to be a police officer. We get to the Hinsdale Police Station and he gets an application and starts filling it out right there on the spot. And I said, look, what am I going to do while you're filling out this lengthy application? He just says, shut up and fill out an application for you and just turn it in and, and you know how it ended up. I got the job and he didn't. Oh my gosh. So we're still friends, by the way.

That's funny. And so when you were an FBI agent, that's another interesting story how he came. I never really had my goals set on being an FBI agent, but I was filling my SWAT car up at a pump with a pump we shared with another police department. And I said goodbye to that guy. I said, goodbye, I'll see you tomorrow night. He said, no. He said, I'm starting with the FBI tomorrow. He said, you ought to fill out an application because they're hiring. So I said, why not? So I filled out an application and I got the job. So my career has been quite accidental. Wow. So you're an expert. So for everybody who's listening, who might not know who you are, you're an expert on likability and making friendships and getting people to like you. How did you end up

becoming an expert on that? Was it your field training in the FBI? How did they teach you? I think back, I remember as early as being eight or 10 years old, my mom would take me to the mall. And I would sit and just watch people. I'm fascinated with the way people behave. And I always had an interest in people. And then when I got to the police department and eventually the FBI became a behavioral analyst and all those skills that I kind of picked up, you know, through just normal working with people and making observations, I was able to hone my skills.

And the FBI trained me quite a bit on behavioral analysis. Yeah. So basically it was just, you fell into this job, sort of accidental, and then you just ended up being good at that job. It's really interesting because a lot of people fall into jobs and they end up not being good at it or not liking it. Was it satisfying for you? to be an FBI agent?

It was the best job I could have ever had. I counted a privilege to wake up every day and go to work. The weekends got in the way. And my career went with the snap of a finger. That's awesome. The reason I got good at this is because I worked counterintelligence. In other words, I caught spies. So I'd have to catch a spy.

And then our goal was to make friends with that spy, encourage him to work with us as a double agent again. the country he came from. And the other skills were trying to get someone to confess to a heinous crime. In other words, you have to build this trust with somebody for them to tell you the secret. They did something that's going to send them to jail for a long, long time. And that takes a certain amount of people skills to be able to decide or determine how to get someone to like you enough to trust you enough to tell you that kind of secret. So you have a great formula. It's called the friendship formula. And since you're talking about

how you used to have to get spies to like you and trust you, I thought a great way to help my listeners understand the friendship formula would be for you to use it in an example. Just for context for everyone, Jack came on my show, episode one, and we went over all the basics. So we already went over the friendship formula what it is. We were. went over a lot of his principles. So I want this to really be like a 2.0 version of that podcast. So first of all, explain to us what the friendship formula is because this is one of the biggest takeaways I've ever had in my life and I use it almost every day. I love using the friendship formula. Tell us what that is for people who don't know. And then maybe walk us through

one of your stories as an FBI agent using that formula. Okay. The friendship formula, basically there's four elements in a personal relationship. The first one is proximity. The second one is frequency. The third one is duration. And the fourth one is intensity. So in order to have any kind of a relationship at all, you have to have proximity. Because if you're in New York and I'm in Chicago and we don't know one another exists, then there's no relationship. So there has to be some kind of acknowledgement or understanding that somebody else exists, either virtually or in person. The nice thing about proximity is if we just share space with other people, we establish a mutual liking for that person.

Even though we don't talk to them, we may not even pay a lot of attention to them. But just the fact that we share the same space, we predispose one another to like us. And just being proximal with somebody isn't enough. You have to be frequently proximal with somebody. And just being frequently there doesn't do a lot either. So you have to have duration.

So you have to have time with that person. And the other thing, and I think the most important thing, is the intensity of that relationship. So that's the kind of glue that holds that relationship together. And so as an agent or as a behavioral analyst, a lot of people came to us and asked, how do you recruit spies or how do you recruit sources to give you information when you don't even know these people?

So we came up with this personal relationship index a friendship formula. And one of the, I guess, most successful events that it worked for is we had a, and I explained this in the book, we had a Russian intelligence officer who was not very friendly and didn't want to talk to us. And we needed information from that person. So I used the formula. What I did was I just sat, I went into a cell and I just sat down and read the newspaper.

That's all I did every day. And that's proximity. So once you're there long enough and frequently enough, and you spend time there, then that fear that person has of you then turns into curiosity. But one day he says, why are you here? And I said, I'm here because I want to talk to you. And then I continued to read the newspaper. So that developed that curiosity.

And then I just left. And the next day I came back and he says, I really want to talk to you. I said, well, you told me you didn't want to talk to me. So I don't want to talk to you unless you want to do so. And he says, I really do want to talk to you. So I said, oh, okay. So I put my paper down and we engaged in the discussion where he eventually provided us the information we were after. But the whole thing is you can use that in your personal life.

If you have a person of interest and you can just be where they're at. If they're in a bar or a gym, just be there. And what you want to do is after you're there for a certain amount of time, your frequency develops, then you want to introduce your friendship signals, which are the eyebrow flash, the head tilt, and the smile. Just to review the head, the eyebrow flashes a quick up and down movement of your eyebrows, and that lasts about one sixty-fourth of a second. And it's a long-distance signal that says, I'm not a threat. So when we pass one another on the street or in the office, we have a tendency to eyebrow flash them. So just to let them know that

we're not a threat, and they will eyebrow flash us back. and say, I'm not a threat to you either. A lot of people do this every day, all the time, many times a day. And they have, sometimes they don't know they do it. Most people don't know they do this. And so if you pass somebody in the office, the first time you see them, you go, hey, how you doing? The other person goes, hey, how you doing? But the second time, watch what they do when you pass.

You don't have to do any kind of verbal acknowledgement. But watch when they pass, your eyebrow flash one another. And that's just a signal that says, I'm not a threat. Guys do the chin thing too. You'll see them. Yeah, that's true. They do the chin. That's a friend signal.

So the second thing is your head tilt. The reason the head tilt means it's a friend signal is because you expose your carotid artery. And that is a lifeblood of your existence there. If you lose that, you're pretty much dead in a few minutes. So what you're telling that person is I'm exposing that carotid artery because I don't fear you. So I'm not a threat. If anybody has animals or dogs, particularly, as soon as you come in the house, they'll sit there and what do they do?

Tilt their head, one way or the other. They'll roll over on their stomach and they need a nice belly rub. But what they're saying, basically, is I'm exposing the most vulnerable part of my body because I trust you. So these signals kind of go across to the animal kingdom also. And the last thing is a smile. When we smile, we release endorphins. And endorphins make us feel good about ourselves.

And there's the golden rule of friendship which says, if you want to make friends with somebody, you make them feel good about themselves. Yes. So as soon as you smile, it's very difficult for someone not to smile back. And once they smile then, you get that shot of endorphin, which says, I like you, makes me feel good about me. So I made you feel good about you. Therefore, you're going to like me. Yeah. It's so interesting, all these things that you're saying, like so many gems, I would encourage people to rewind that and listen to that back. It's so important to understand these

things. And the friendship formula is very interesting because I think it's actually a scientific fact that the more time you spend with someone, the more attractive you think they are. So many people, they'll be in a classroom with someone and they'll start to find their classmate attractive when if they didn't spend every day with them, they wouldn't actually think they're attractive. So it's really cool. Yeah. That's the key to the formula. It's just letting nature or psychology work for you without working too hard at making friends. And then you come across as more natural. Yeah. And it's more spontaneous, I think. Yeah. And then with the friendship formula, can you just dig a little deeper into the intensity portion? Yeah, it's easy to measure

proximity. It's either you're there or you're not. Frequency is easy to put on a counter. So it's duration. You can put that on a clock. When it comes to intensity, you have to look for nonverbal behaviors. So we came up with some nonverbal behaviors that indicate intensity. And the number one is extended eye gaze. So mutual gaze. So we like each other, we look into one another's eyes. And that is similar to, if you do have dogs again, a dog will come up, sit maybe right close to you, and they'll stare deep into your eyes. That's the dog giving you kind of an eye hug. And what's interesting is my daughter, when she was younger, she was the prom queen at the high school. And so the guys would always come by the house with proximity, not of

proximity. And then they're frequently there. Then they spend a lot of time there. Those things I'm not worried about. It's just that I'm going to date myself now and talk about two things that don't exist anymore. They were supposed to be in the den looking at a VHS movie. But instead, what were they doing? Staring into one another's eyes. Then you know that that relationship has gained some intensity. And that's one of the most powerful intensifiers. So what you want to do is put the kibosh on there. I sent the young man home. Yeah, that's so funny. I love that story. So you were just talking about friend signals. Your big three friend signals that you went over are the head tilt, the eyebrow flash, and the smile. What other signals can we give to people to be more likable,

more approachable? And then I might actually call out some body parts and get your input on certain body parts because there are some things that I know about that I think you know about too that I'd love to share with my listeners. So what other things can we do to be more approachable, more open? Well, the first thing that you can do is, and that's the extension of mutual gaze, is that when I approach you, I'm going to eyebrow flash. I'll do it slowly so you can see an eyebrow flash. I'll head tilt. I'll smile.

And then I'm going to look at you in the eyes, but I can't look too long because that's staring. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to move my eyes, but. still maintain eye contact. So your brain is saying it's not a stare because he's not staring his head is moving. But in fact, I'm intensifying that relationship to that mutual gaze. So that's one way you can do that. Another way you can engage people is have an open posture. In other words, don't sit there leaning back and hands crossed and legs crossed. Then we'll tell the people that you're closed off. Yeah. You don't want to do that. Let's stick on open posture. for one second. I had Jordan Harbinger on the show. And one of the things that we talked about

is how to have an open posture naturally, because it's very important when you're making a first impression to not have to think about having an open posture and just have one naturally. So he taught us about something called the doorway drill. And essentially what that is, is you put a post-a-note on a door about eyesight level. And every time you walk through a door in your house, you then remember to be open, walk straight up. Then, over time, you build that habit naturally. So do you have any other tips in terms of how to do these friend signals more naturally? Well, what I think you should do first is number one, you do them all the time. You just don't realize you do them because a lot of people come back and

say, my gosh, I've been eyebrow flashing forever and I never realized it. So the first thing you want to do is realize what you're doing and say, you know what? I just eyebrow flash. How did that feel to do a natural eyebrow flash. And they say, okay, and then you try to emulate that. And then you try to head tilt and a smile, and you try to emulate what you feel naturally. So the first thing is to kind of recognize that you're using these signals,

know what it feels like, and then practice using them. And then when it comes time to use them for real, then it'll come naturally. So I did that with a lot of people, especially with, I get a lot of child molester interviews. I didn't like those people. And if I were to walk in and not give those friends signals,

they would have picked up faux signals, which that would have made it more difficult. So I had to go in there and just naturally do that. Yeah, and what are faux signals? Fos signals are the furrow brows, the eyes slits, the mouth is teeth bearing, and that's what I call the urban scouts. people that grow up in big cities walk through the city with an urban scowl on to let the predators know that it's going to be tough to take advantage of.

And, you know, one thing people forget is when they go into job interviews, that's a stressful situation, especially if it's your first job interview, your big job, you really want it. So how do you feel anxious? When you feel anxious, that's a form of fight-flight, which you have a tendency to show an urban scowl. So when you walk into the job interview, you want to present a friendly face, but your body's saying, this is fearful. I need to show urban skull. So you have to override that instinct. And you have to walk in and make sure you eyebrow flash, you head tilt, and you smile. Because that will let the employer know that you're friendly and you're not a threat.

So a lot of times you get that first wrong impression because it's a fearful situation and your body doesn't naturally send out. signals when you're afraid. And now a quick break from our sponsors. At YAP, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers. And I'm really picky when it comes to my employees. My team is growing every day. We're 60 people all over the world. And when it comes to hiring, I no longer feel overwhelmed by finding that perfect candidate, even though I'm so picky. Because when it comes to hiring, indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post noticed. Indeed, sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast by boosting your post to the top relevant candidates.

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identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash yapfrey and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash yapfrey. This is like common sense, right? We all do these things naturally. But like you said, in situations like a job interview where we're so nervous, we're probably not thinking like, oh, I need to smile and have a head tilt and do an eyebrow flat. You're not thinking about that because.

you're like, oh, I need to give them this experience, this skill, and you forget about your body language. And it's very important because people, communication is like, I think 70% body language or something like that. So it's very important to make sure that you learn that just as much as you learn to talk about your skills or experiences. That's why it's very important when you do online dating. I'm not against online dating. I think it has a place that's valuable. But we have to go from the verse. and the written very quickly to the visual.

Yeah. So that's where we're best at judging people, is the visual. So you want to get right to the visual as quickly as you can to avoid a lot of complications. So number one complication is if you hear somebody's voice, you have a tendency to conjure up a picture of them in your mind. And if you see them long enough, then this picture develops. It's almost like, have you ever been on a telephone? And you talk to somebody routinely on a telephone?

and you have a picture of what they're like, then you need in their life and they're not like their voice at all. Yes. That's what you want to avoid when you're on internet dating. You want to make sure that you don't develop an idealized image of that person. And then when you do finally meet them, either Skype or in person, then it destroys that whole image of them and that kind of relationship. Yeah.

Who is this person? Yeah. And I think that used to be such a big problem. before like video Skyping and things like that became so popular. So many people used to get catfish. They had a whole show about it. So let's go to individual body parts. I know that lips can say a lot about how somebody is feeling. George Sr. Bush had this famous quote, read my lips. And literally you could read people's lips. So tell us about the different things that you can tell from somebody's lips. Well, lips are very important. First of all I want to talk about is a

lip bite is that when somebody bites their lip and what they're trying to do is keep their mouth shut. In other words, they have something to say, but they don't want to say it for whatever reason. I use it in my classroom quite a bit because if I'm lecturing and I see a student biting their lip, then I'll say, oh, you've got something to say. So how did you know, wrong? You told me by what you did with your lips. The second one is more intense and that is the lip compression. The lip compression says, I don't want to say something so badly. I'm going to actually clamp my lips shut so I don't say it. When you see that, you say, ah, you've got something to say.

You're afraid to say it. Oh, how do you know? Well, your lip, meaning you're putting it. I think one of the most important lip signals is the lip purse. I'm going to exaggerate it right now, and that's outward movement of your lips. It's not as great, but I just want to exaggerate it now. What that means is the person you're talking to has already formed a negative sentence in opposition to what you just said. So if I said, and I often say this to my wife, she'll say it's your turn to pick the movie, right, that we go see, which means I've already picked out a movie.

You've just got to figure out which one it is. So then I'll go through a litany of movies and I'll see lip purses, which means what? We're not seeing that movie. So when we see a movie, she's already preselected, of course, for me to choose, then you don't see the lip purse. If you ask your boss for something and they lip purse, we have a problem. The key to this is, like when I was in the FBI, I used to have, get resources to run the operations that I ran. And some of the operations, you look at cost benefits. So I'm explaining this to my supervisor.

And I see right when we get to the money part, I see a lip purse. So the key is you want to get that person to change their mind inside their mind before they have a chance to articulate it. Because if they articulate no, then there's a psychological principle of consistency. When we say no, we want to be consistent with no. And it's very difficult to change our mind. So I get to the topic of money and I see the lip purse.

I go, boss, I'll bet you're thinking this is way too much money. but let me explain the cost benefit. Let me explain this. Let me explain that why it is worth doing this operation. So I'm getting him to change his mind inside his mind before he had the chance to come out and say no. That's excellent, excellent advice. I just want to replay that from my listeners.

He's saying if you see somebody start to purse their lips when you're giving something like numbers, so this is great for salespeople or if you're trying to get a promotion or whatever it is, you want to change their mind before they actually. actually say it because once they say it, they set it in stone in their head and they don't want to go back on their words. So very important thing to learn. Let's move on to the next body part. They say eyes are the windows of the soul. I had a guest, Chase Hughes, who came on episode number eight, and he talks about blink rate, right? So that's something my listeners are familiar with. The faster you blink, the less interested someone is in what you're saying. The slower they blink,

the more interested they are in what you're saying. So do you have anything else in terms of the eyes and what we should look for in terms of if somebody is liking us or not liking us? Well, the first thing you have to do with all nonverbal cues is to get a baseline. So I'm going to ask you a few questions that you have no reason to lie to me about. And then I'm going to count your eye blink rate. And then I'm going to ask you a hot button question. And then your eye blink rate is going to increase. Your eye blink rate. increases with anxiety because when you fear getting caught in a lie that triggers the fight-flight response. And what happens is the water that's in your body gets shunted to your outside of your

body in the form of sweat to help you cool down and survive. So what happens, that leaves less water for your eyes to be lubricated. So what you have to do is increase your eye blink rate in order to keep your eyeballs lubricated. So that's kind of anxiety. So what you want to do is look for increased eye blink rate would be anxiety. Or it could be if you meet somebody for the first time, you're a little anxious. Yeah. And so you should switch the topic then if you see the fast eye blinking. Is that the strategy?

Like what's your strategy then? Well, I would move more then into the verbal aspect of this. Once you know the eye blink rate, they're anxious about something. We don't know if it's because they're excited to see you. They don't want you to see you at all. They're threatened by you. We don't know that. So what you want to do is use what I refer to as empathic statement.

Empathic statements are probably the most powerful report building tool that you can have. And that is what you take that person, what they said, how they feel, or their physical appearance, and you use similar language, and you just mirror it back to them. So on the elevator, I often see students that are very happy. So if they're very happy, I say, oh, so you must have had a good day or you must be having a good day. And they will come back and say, yes, I just passed a test that I studied hard for, empathic statement. So you studied hard and it paid off. What you're doing basically is you're making it all about them.

And what you have to do is the basic construction of an empathic statement would be so you. and the reason I like people to say so you initially is because it makes it about the other person. Yes. Because it says, I know how you feel because I used to study hard and pass tests. Well, they don't care what you did, anything about you. All they care is about them. If you make that conversation all about them, then they're going to like you because they feel good because you're listening. Here's the secret of that.

If every time you're with me, you feel good about yourself, the probability is you're going to want to see me again. And additionally, the probabilities I won't even have to invite you to come see me again. You're going to find an excuse to come see me again to get that same good feeling. Yes, because, again, his golden rule of friendship is, sorry, what's the golden rule of friendship? It's slipping my mind. If you want people to like you, you make them feel good about themselves. Exactly. And that's what empathic statements do. I actually use empathic statements now.

I try to practice when I'm in the elevator at work because that's what I read in your book. You can literally just practice in the elevator. If somebody's just smiling, you could just say, so you look like you're having a great day. But you don't actually want to say, I believe you're having a great day. Why is that? Why don't you actually want to tell them directly what you think they are feeling? Because we all think the world revolves around us. And everything has to be about us.

So if we extend ourselves and make it about the other person, then that person says, wow, somebody paid attention to me. Somebody understands. Somebody observed something about me and made a comment. Therefore, I like that person because there are finally somebody's paying attention to me in my world. So that's the thing is you're getting out of your world and you're projecting empathy into another person's world, which makes people feel good.

And isn't that what we're supposed to do in life is make people feel good about themselves? And I like to go through life. And every time I meet somebody, I like to make them think that was a person worth meeting because I just feel that much better for having that person. And that's kind of my goal now. Yeah, that's a very good goal. And I read a quote, I think it was somebody who is reviewing one of your books. And they said, approach it, not that you want to make people like you, but that you want to

be a more likable person. So it's like, it's about you. It's not about forcing other people to like. like you. It's just about you being a better, more likable person that's more approachable, more empathetic, stuff like that. So there's nothing negative or manipulative about any of this. No, I mean, these are all things we do naturally. And because of the tech world and the younger folks know this, you're always on your iPhones or your whatever thumb talk and you're doing, then you're not looking at people. You're not exchanging conversation with people. So then it

becomes very difficult for you to communicate with people. So all we're doing is kind of giving you a little catch-up course on how do you become, how do you present yourself as though somebody should like you? It's not manipulating. It's you're taking steps that most in my generation, we learned that because we didn't have all the technology. We had to actually go out across the street and get our friend and talk to them. So that's the difference between today's world and the world I grew up in. Yeah, we have to try a little harder to learn body language because we don't get as much practice. We're always online. We're always chatting. We're always texting. We just don't get enough practice, so you've got to read the books. You've got to listen to people like Dr. Jack Schaefer.

I would highly recommend his book, The Like Switch. Honestly, I've read it 10 times. It's an amazing, amazing book. Okay, so let's move on to another real world example. Many of the listeners on Young and Profiting Podcasts, they go to a million networking events, right? Right. And sometimes we go to these parties and we're totally by ourselves. We don't have a plus one with us. How can we approach these situations? How can we tell who is open to make a new friend? What are the signals that other people give us to tell them that they're open for a conversation or to be a new friend? You know, a really simple way to do this, look at people's feet. When we go into a large crowd, and I was always asked to go to a lot of embassy parties and talk to people and during the course of my work, and how do you mingle with somebody to get information from them? Well, I discovered if you look at their feet, that's an indication of whether they're accepting additional people into their circle.

So if the feet, if you have two people when their feet are face, toe to toe, that's a closed circle. They do not want to talk with you. But if the two people have their feet outward, and that leaves a little hole there in front of them, so they're kind of slanding their feet in a V kind of formation, that means it's okay and they're accepting new people. So the rule of thumb is if there's a place to put your feet, it's okay to me. I love that. That's so good. And then something else that I wanted to share with our listeners is the curiosity hook.

So sometimes when someone's shy, a good trick if you're a shy person is to wear something that's like a little bit outlandish to a party, like maybe a cool hat, and use that as a way for people to engage in a conversation with you. They call that a curiosity hook. Could you explain that a little bit more and give some more examples? It's very powerful to get people to talk to you. So if you're a shy person and you want to make friends, the first thing you do is you can look at their feet. There's three people there and there's an opening to put your feet. You step in, you listen for a little bit. And then they'll look at you.

And if you're wearing something, that's kind of unique. It can be a unique piece of jewelry. It could be a sports logo of a team. It can be some unique accessory that you have. And people say, oh, that's interesting. So now what are they doing? They're what? They're approaching you, actually.

So you don't have to make that initial step. They're coming to you and asking you about. that unique thing that you have on you because curiosity is pretty powerful. It's a powerful way to get people to talk to you without you having to actually extend yourself. Excerverting will have a big problem with this staff because they're always talking. But a lot of time introverts or if you're kind of leery about meeting somebody new, it's a perfect way to introduce yourself. Yeah. So I have a question from the audience I thought was really interesting. And Kenneth Pierre says, can you ask him, what does a person's walk tell you about their personality?

The way we look at it in the intelligence world, there are several things we look at. If people walk closer to the curb, they're more of a risk taker. If people walk closer to the building side of the street, then they're less of a risk taker. people that walk ahead of the crowd so you'll have a group of people together the person that's in the lead is going to be naturally set the pace and they're going to be the leader of that of that group and you also have you know the swagger and all those other things that young folks do that try to illustrate that they're you know that they're unique and they're different yeah that that's really really good. I think that people often tell me that when I'm walking around, I have a bitch face is what they say.

But that's probably the urban scowl that you were talking about because I live in New York City. Absolutely. And I'll tell you a quick story is that my wife was in the suburbs and I grew up in the city. So I walked around with my urban scowl all the time. And then when I go out and see her, her friends would say, boy, Jack is mean. And I don't know how you like him. He'll snap. I don't have afraid to talk to him because it'll bite my head off or yelling. And she's no, he's a nice guy. And then when she mentioned that to me, I thought about it. And I said, yeah, I'm walking around with my city face on in the suburbs where it's not necessary to walk around with the urban skull.

So that's really important for you now when you want to give the right impression. You can consciously now do that without causing any concerns. Yeah. So just like remember, I'm not on the street. I'm not trying to get men not to look at me or talk to me. Like when I'm in a work environment or social. environment, I've got to switch my mindset to consciously say, I'm in a safe place. I want to be open, warm, friendly. And speaking of that, Lila had a question who's in the chat. And she's wondering

if changing your body language, like, actually changes your mindset in any way. Oh, yes, it does. Absolutely. Because our minds pay attention to our bodies. So one quick thing is, if you're feeling a little depressed, if you just fake a smile, you'll get a little shot. of endorphin. It'll make you feel better about you. And even though you're faking in a smile, you still get that little shot of endorphin. So our bodies do pay attention to what we do. And if we're closed off, our minds are going to be closed off. If we're in aggressive stance, we're going to be aggressive. So it's nice to have all these tools in your, like your friendship toolbox, your relationship toolbox, because then now you can choose what image you want to

portray in what situation. If I'm walking down a street in New York, and I don't want people bothering me, now you can intentionally put on the urban skull. Then you can go inside your office and say, okay, it's a safe place for me to open up a little bit. So now you can intentionally make that transition. Yeah. And a lot of people can't do that without understanding why and how they do the things they do as humans. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Hello, Yap Gang.

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slash profiting. Rules and restrictions apply. I mean, I walk into my building at work. You know, I just got off the subway. I'm definitely have my urban scale on. I don't want anybody talking to me. And then I walk into the building. And what does the bodyguard say? Can't you give a smile? And I'm like, oh, I'm just walking into work, you jerk. But I've got to be more conscious, you know. People are picking up on that. You see how people do notice your appearance. Yeah. And it has a big impact on other people. So if you can learn these skills, and you know what the beauty of this is? I'm not teaching you anything you don't already know. The book shows you how to recognize what you already do and then to use it in the appropriate situation. Yeah. So let's move on to dating.

You have a whole chapter in your book about the laws of attraction. How can we get somebody to like us more in a romantic way. Like, what are the ways to do it? You were mentioning endorphins. I know that has a lot to do with it. Could you just talk to us about your different laws of attraction? I'd love to hear about that. Well, one of my favorite laws is the laws of misattribution.

In other words, when we are in a kind of a fearful situation, a situation that maybe is a slight impression of danger or some types that, we tend to associate that close to. with other people. So that will encourage closeness because we want to get together. It's like the band of brothers and the cops are more close because of the danger they face. So what you want to do is emulate that is I think on a first day you should take somebody to a scary movie because that is going to set up that kind of situation.

They did some research and they found out that couples that went into scary moves came out holding hands more and they were closer because of the sharing that trauma together. That's so interesting. I could totally relate. I know that every time me and my boyfriend watch a scary movie together, it ends up being like a more romantic night. I can explain it. But it also works in the other way, and that is when you run or exercise, you get the shot of endorphins. It's the runner's high. So you don't, you can't attribute that to any one specific thing. So what you do is the person that's there gets the benefit of having that good feeling. So if a person of interest happens to be a runner, you can either run in the same area they are for proximity and frequency and duration,

or you can just be with them at the end of their run and they're going to feel good about themselves and they're not going to know, they're not going to figure out the run maybe feel good. They're going to misattribute that good feeling to you. and then that'll make them feel better about you. So those are different ways you can. Yeah. The last one is like a little bit unethical, right? If you're trying to start a long-term relationship with someone and you show up every time they're done with the gym so they're thinking like, oh, I think I like them.

But really, they're just high off their workout. What's your counter argument to that? Is that how you should build a long-term relationship? Well, and that is just one way to kind of initiate. the relationship. You got to remember all these techniques that we've been talking about are for that initial meeting, right? After that initial meeting, that's when you look for, you make empathic statements, you look for common ground. And common ground is another very powerful way to get people to like you, because it's like you, me, same same. If we share the same things, we have a tendency

to like one another. Yeah. So I'm always looking for common ground. And there's three ways to get common ground. There's contemporaneous, which means you're going to Western Illinois University. I'm a student of Western Illinois University. Therefore, we have something we share in common. You're from New York.

I'm from New York. Okay? Now, the second way to do that is temporal. You're from New York, and I've been to New York several times. So I could say over time, what do we have? We share that same experience. The other one is contemporaneous. You're from New York.

My daughter's from New York. She lives in New York. So we have common ground through my daughter. And that's called vicarious common ground. So we share common ground through a third person. So there's different ways you can look at common ground. And once you have common ground, people have a tendency to like you because they like people who share the same things that they do.

Yeah, people like people who are similar to them and familiar to them. That's a really important thing. It's always super helpful when you meet somebody new to try to figure out, like, what do we have in common? Because it just bonds you together more so. So once we're in a relationship, let's say we do all these tactics. We, you know, we're dating somebody new. We get into a relationship. What's the inevitable that happens, like a bad argument, right? I know you have excellent tips when it comes to diffusing arguments, reducing friction in relationships. Can you share some of that with us? Yeah, the first thing you want to do is you want to provide that person that may be mildly angry with you. You want to provide them with an explanation. When we're angry, our world is not in sync. Something's not wrong. We can't make sense of our world. So if I do something and my person of interest is upset, it's because something I did doesn't fit with her image of me, or image of the world or image how our relationships could be. So she's out of sync.

So then you become frustrated. Frustration is just a form of anger, a mild form of anger. So what I'm going to do is say, oh, the reason I did this is because. And then you explain the reason. And then the other person goes, oh, I get it. That's why I did it. Now my world is back in what? Sink, and I understand my world.

And I do that when I arrest somebody. Why are you putting the cuffs on me? while putting the cuffs on you because of these reasons. Oh, okay, officer safety and this and this policy. Oh, okay, that makes sense. So they're no longer angry. So what ends is somebody is a little more than mildly angry. This is where we have problems.

And there's a very simple solution that's called the anger cycle. So when we're angry, we go into the fight flight, it triggers a fight-flight mechanism. And what that does is it cuts off our logical processing. When we're angry, we are not logically processing information. So the last thing you want to do is, number one, try to rationalize with an angry person. The second thing you don't want to do is put fuel on the fire. But what you do want to do is allow that person to vent.

So here's what initially happens. They're angry. And then what you want to do is when you get them done being angry at first, you get kind of like, I'm done with my initial venting. I'm done saying why I'm angry. So you see that little relaxation, and right then you want to insert an empathic statement. So, for example, if I'm TDIY and my wife has the three kids at home,

and I'm TDII or temporary duty for two weeks, and she's pulling double duty, and I come home, I say, hi, honey, I'm home. I'm expecting a warm hug and a kiss. That's not what happens. She goes, while you were off partying, and you were off having nice dinners and everything. I'm at home pulling double duty.

So she's angry. So what I'll say is, oh, so you were overwhelmed with all the work you had to do when I was gone. So that's just an empathic statement explaining what her situation is. So you think things will calm down then, right? No, they won't. She says, well, he finally gets it. What happens? There has a tendency to be more venting.

And by the way, when you were gone those two weeks, I missed the, those Wednesday night outings with my girlfriends to talk about normal stuff, get away from the kids while you babysit. And I wasn't able to do that. So a little relaxation, another empathic statement. So you miss going out with your friends. She goes, well, yeah, I miss going out with my friends. And you get more venting.

But what you're doing is allowing that person to vent and vent and vent without what, fueling that fire, throwing fuel on that fire. And then you come over the top where they're just done. that's what you want to insert a what I call a presumptive statement or presumptive course of action, which that person is difficulty refusing. Okay. So in my situation, I would say, well, I'll gather the kids up, take them over to mom's house. You go out and take a bubble bath or something, and then when I get back, we'll go out and have a nice dinner because you deserve it.

How are you going to say no? So proposing like a solution like that? Yeah, you propose a solution that they have a very difficult time saying no to. I don't know somebody's thinking, wait a minute, you're not going to get off that easy. Right? So what you do is take them back into the anchor cycle. I'll say, oh, so you think you deserve a little bit more compensation for what you went through over the last two weeks. Well, yes, I do.

And then how about a day at the spot? I'll take care of the kid. So essentially, to boil it down for everyone, you want to try to get people to vent using empathetic statements. and then you're going to propose a solution that they cannot refuse. Or have a very difficult time refusing. Or have a very difficult time defusing. Yeah. That sounds like really great advice.

And it's kind of interesting because several of my students came back and said they saved a lot of relationships that way using the anger cycle. Yeah. It really works. Yeah, it does work. Yeah. I can't wait to try that out at home because I think I think I could avoid a lot of conflicts if I employ those strategies.

Yeah, well, it's like somebody came into my office once, one of my coworkers. I was working a big case in the FBI, and she came in and she's very upset with me, calling me names. She decorated her expressions quite a bit. And instead of me defending myself, I said an empathic statement, so you're angry at something because I did something wrong. She said, well, yeah, and she gets very angry, more venting. And I say, oh, so because I wasn't around to give you a briefing so you could write the paperwork and send it to headquarters. And that makes you look bad. She goes, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing.

You're doing stuff and not telling me, and I'm in charge of the paperwork. So we get over the hump, she's done. I go, then why don't we meet every day at 5 o'clock in the afternoon and I'll brief you? She says, okay, that was the end of that. Wow. That could have been a very dangerous situation if I was to go on the defensive. Exactly. So you don't want to go on the defensive and start giving like, well, I did this because of that and I did this because of that.

You just want to listen, listen, listen, listen, and then propose a solution that they can't refuse. That's an excellent way to diffuse arguments. I'm definitely going to try to put that into play. We have a really interesting question from Christopher Nesbitt. He says, can you ask about the frequency and speed of my? movements and what it says about someone. Well, like when people go quickly up the stairs, take two steps? Well, I guess it's just, he's just asking about the speed of any movement.

Maybe it's like shaking your hands too much, shaking your leg. What are so many things that can go into that? Oh, really? Yeah, because what if you're naturally a nervous person? What if you have metabolism? What if you have your... Yeah, so it's not... It's not cut and dry, like some of the other stuff.

No, we can talk. If you see somebody walking up the stairs, two steps at a time, they're very energetic. Yeah. You know, they want to engage. Yeah. Kristen Sherry asks, and it's on this topic, she was asking, is body language universal? Because you just said there could be a lot of things at play with that. So is body language universal or does it depend on someone's personality?

Most body language, with the exception of the handshake, is universal. I've done a lot of research in this area, and I believe it's universal. I work with a lot of people from all over the world. Everybody eyebrow flashes. Everybody head tilts. Everybody smiles. Everybody thinks they're the center of the universe. And if you want, like you're doing now, you're head nodding.

If you want to increase people's output of speech, you just head nod. So if you're shy on a first date and you just want that other person to keep talking. talking, so what are you going to do? You just head nod because we're in a turn-taking society. And that means that's head-knotting is a signal that says keep talking. It's your turn. Yeah. So my last question, we're running up on time. So I want to end the episode with some actionable advice. The first question I'm going to ask you is, how do you get people to do more of what you want? So to get them to do favors for you, I think the love, there's some law Yes, yes. I would love for you to talk to us about that because I think this is something that our listeners can take away right away and put into action.

Well, one of the things you can do is when we do things for other people, you say, the other person says, yeah, don't worry about it. You're welcome. Don't worry about it. What you want to say is, I know you do the same for me. So if you do a favor for me, and I'll tell you instead of saying, thank you. you, I would say, I know you do the same for me. And that sets up that reciprocity because people want to reciprocate in like kind or like manner of what people do for us. So that's one way we can do it. Another way we can do it is ask people to do us a favor. Because how do you feel when you do a favor for somebody? You feel good, don't you? And then that goes back to the golden rule of friendship. If I can make you feel good about you, you're going to like me. So I'm going to ask you to do me a favor.

And all I have to do is say, can you do me a favor? And that sets up your willingness or predisposes you to do it. And here's the irony, I think we can end with this. The irony of all this is if you like somebody, you're going to do anything you can for them. That's just the way humans are. It's kind of ironic, isn't it? I put you ahead of all other people. I make you the focus of my attention.

Everything's about you. But in the end, you're going to do me favors or things just because you like me. Yeah. And people like to help other people. So if you ask them, if you say favor, they'll want to do it more, which is so you wouldn't think that, but that's the truth. Yeah, that came from Ben Franklin, by the way. It's called the Ben Franklin effect.

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. I will. So, Jack, one of the last questions that I ask everybody on this show is what is your secret to profiting in life? And this doesn't have to be financial. It could be professionally. What is your secret to profiting in life? Well, if you find something you like, pursue it with fervor and passion because it will pan out for you. And it goes back to like when I was eight years old.

I always wanted to be a writer. and that's one thing that I actually wrote down on a piece of paper. And I pursued that with fervor and passion. And it was quite a while before I even had limited success. So without that fervor and passion, it would have never happened. And if you do something that you enjoy, you're not going to work a day in your life. Yeah, it's so true. And you can like you and you're going to have good relationships.

Totally. That's like me and my podcast. Every time I do work on it, it's just fun. It doesn't even feel like work because it's my true passion. Thank you so much, Jack. I really, really enjoyed this chat. And I hope you have a great day. Thanks so much for everything that you've done for me. I really appreciate it. I really, really do. Thanks for the kind words. Thank you.