Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jonah Berger: Change Anyone's Mind | E158

Episode Date: February 23, 2022

This week on YAP, we’re chatting with Jonah Berger, NYT best-selling author, full-time professor at Wharton University and a world-renowned expert on change, influence, and consumer behavior.  Ever since he was a kid, Jonah had an eye for patterns and data. At age 7, he tested at genius IQ levels, AND he got near-perfect SAT scores in high school. His mathematical, detail-oriented mind makes him exceptionally aware of patterns in human behavior.  Jonah is author of three books on psychology and consumer behavior, and two of his books, Contagious and Invisible Influence are New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers. He was named one of the top 30 leaders in business by the American Management Association, and one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company magazine.  In this episode, Jonah tells us about how he first became interested in human behavior and what career opportunities are available in this field. We’ll learn why people are not like marbles in the sense that they cannot be forced to change; and why removing key barriers like reactance and endowment is what actually can bring about successful change in people.   If you want to learn the way to change anyone’s mind and more generally bring about change in the world - this episode is for you!  Sponsored by -  Peloton - Visit onepeloton.com to learn more.  Jordan Harbinger - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations. Mint Mobile - To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, and get the plan shipped to your door for FREE, go to mintmobile.com/yap Constant Contact - start your free trial at constantcontact.com Woven Earth - save 20% on your order with code YAP on wovenearth.com/YAP. Social Media: Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Timestamps: 1:21 - How Jonah first gained interested in human behavior, technology, and the relationship between people and technology  3:24 - The types of jobs that are available in the field of psychology, consumerism, and human behavior, and the complexity of that industry  7:11 - Jonah discusses a study he conducted about changing human behavior across multiple industries, and he describes the concept of ‘pushing’  9:36 - Jonah relates chemical changes to human behavioral changes  12:08 - Jonah explains what makes a good (and bad) negotiator  15:44 - Jonah tells a story about Tide Pods and how Procter & Gamble handled negative press surrounding them  18:56 - He explains why people want control over the products we buy and the choices we make, and how this drives people to deliberately make poor decisions  21:50 - Jonah explains what it was like to release his book at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, and his opinions on the way that information and protocols were communicated to the public during the pandemic  24:03 - The importance of giving your customer or client choices, rather than pushing one product, service, or idea  27:37 - jonah explains his strategy, “Ask, don’t tell,” which illustrates the importance of asking questions  32:07 - Jonah explains a successful anti-smoking campaign in Thailand and the science behind it  36:50 - Jonah talks about the “endowment effect” and why people stick with comfortability and familiarity  39:00 - He describes the right way to utilize information in a conversation  41:22 - Jonah explains the ‘uncertainty tax’  44:32 - Jonah’s advice for becoming more profitable   Mentioned In The Episode:   Jonah’s Website: https://jonahberger.com/  Jonah’s Books: https://jonahberger.com/books/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. You can crush your fingers and all your toes during a data center migration. You can knock on wood, pluck a dozen for leaf clovers or look to your lucky stars for a successful office expansion.

You could hold your breath, shut your eyes, and say all the well wishes to help avoid cyber attacks. But none of that truly helps you. Because next level moments need the next level network. With the security, reliability, and expertise to take your business further. AT&T Business. The network you can rely on. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast,

a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry.

There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhanced and productivity, had again influenced the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young and Profiting Podcast.

This week on YAP, we're chatting with Jonah Berger, New York Times bestselling author, full-time professor at Wharton University, and a world-renowned expert on change, influence, and consumer behavior. Ever since he was a kid, Jonah had an eye for patterns and data. At age seven, he tested at genius IQ levels, and he got a near-perfect SAT score in high school.

His mathematical, detailed, oriented mind makes him exceptionally aware of patterns in human behavior. Jonah is the author of three books on psychology and consumer behavior, and two of his books, Contagious and Invisible Influence, are New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers. He was named one of the top 30 leaders in business by the American Management Association, and one of the most creative people in business by fast company magazine. His latest book, The Catalyst, was released in March of 2020 and is all about how to change anyone's mind, which is what we are focused on today. In this episode, Jonah tells us about how he first became interested in human behavior and what career opportunities are available in this field.

We'll learn why people are not like marbles in this sense that they cannot be forced to change and why removing key barriers like reactants and endowment is what actually can bring about successful change in people. If you want to learn the way to change anyone's mind and more generally bring about change in the world, this episode is for you. Hey, Jonah, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Hey, Jonah, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thanks so much for having me.

I'm super excited for this conversation. You are a world-renowned expert on the science of social influence, consumer behavior, and how products, ideas, and behaviors catch on. I personally love these conversations. We always talk about persuasion and influence on Young and Profiting Podcast,

so I can't wait to dive into it all and your book, the Catalyst. First off, I'd wait to dive into it all and your book, The Catalyst. So first off, I'd love to learn more about you and your journey and how you found yourself here. From our research, we found out that you grew up in DC and all throughout school, you tested at genius levels. So curious to understand why you decided to study human behavior and what got you interested in all of this. I don't know who said I tested a genius levels, but that's very generous of them. I've always been interested in science.

I've always been interested in how things work. I grew up, I went to a magnet high school for math, science, and computer science, but I was particularly interested in applying those tools to the social sciences, right? So experimentation is great, research is great, data is great, but can we use those same tools to understand human behavior? When I was growing up as a kid, I used to have ads up on my wall.

It's like my favorite Nike ad or my favorite this ad or my favorite that ad. And I started to wonder, why are some ads more effective than others? Why does some products become popular? Why does some things catch on while others fail? Why do we do what we do? And I started realizing that there was an opportunity to study that. I was actually in college and I was doing a major called science, technology, and society, where they look at the interaction between society and sort of science and tech. And we're reading this article about how the way we build buildings affects how people raise their children. So if you think about it, you live in a sort of a one-story home with a yard outside, your kids' flat, front with the neighbors, you live in a big tall apartment building,

there's further down to the ground, harder for parents to see what the kids are up to, and so maybe the parents are less willing to let their kids out. And so it's interesting to think about, well, wow, building design might affect the way kids grow up, and I sort of asked the professor, I was like, hey, you know, there are other courses you'd recommend, or I could learn more about this stuff. And they said social psychology. And so I started taking social psychology courses.

I started doing research. I was fortunate enough to do some research with a guy named Chip Heath, who now we know from books like Made to Stick and Decisive and others. And it really kind of started my journey into doing research to study sort of who we are and what we do. That's so cool. And I think a lot of my listeners really enjoy these types of topics. So one more question about this sort of background material.

And that is, what kind of jobs can people get having that sort of a background in social sciences and human behavior? You know, what's so interesting is when I started doing this, I don't know, 20-some ideas ago, when you said you were a behavioral scientist, when you said you were interested in data and human behavior, people sort of looked at you a little bit sideways, right? Like, you know, there was one of my professors talk about how when he met his wife and he went to his wife's parents' house and asked what he did and he said, I'm a psychologist. And they said, oh, so you look at patients on the couch and you diagnose their problems. He's like, no, I'm really like a consumer psychologist.

And they were like, what? I don't really understand what that is. We've entered an age where everybody understands data science, right? Where we really understand that human behavior drives a lot of what we see as individuals and consumers. And so I think there's a lot more realization of what we can do with these skills, right? Right before you and I are talking now, I was just talking to a company to try to get people to drive safer. So they're a company that leverages tools on our phone and other places to help people drive safer by leveraging behavioral science. Not by just saying, let's tell you to drive safer,

but let's understand why you might not drive as safely as you should, and how can you use behavioral science to convince you to do something better? You could work for a big CPG firm, Consumer Package Goods company, work for a technology company, like a Google or a Facebook. So many of these organizations have behavioral scientists now as part of how they think about

what they do. And marketing is less these days about sort of trying to figure out, well, how can we sell something? And more about how can we understand the people that are consumers and design products or services that meet their needs. And so I think it's a great time to be involved in behavioral science and the number of careers that are open with that skill set is just sort of unlimited. I think so too.

I'm always like dreaming about getting my PhD and some sort of human behavior topic. I love it so much and it's so great for business in general for sales and even hostage negotiators also are really good at that kind of stuff too, right? I feel like so many people I interview who are experts on human behavior and the FBI or. Yeah, and what I think is neat is, they're in very different domains, right? If you talk to a parenting expert, they'll talk about changing kids' behavior.

You talk to an negotiating expert, they talk about getting someone to come out with their hands out. You talk to a sales expert, they talk about what seals the deal. But if you look a little deeper, if you really think about the behavioral science of why these things work,

there's a lot of commonalities across these things. Whether someone has taken a hostage, whether someone is a four-year-old who's running around your living room, refusing to eat dinner, or whether someone is a client that you're trying to close a deal with, they're not completely different people.

They have the same type of brains, they have the same type of behavioral tendencies and motivations, and yes, they're different, right? Someone who's hold up in the bank is different than someone who's a four-year-old who's different than a potential customer, but the underlying behavioral science, the way their mind works, is very similar. And so by understanding those tendencies, those drivers of behavior, we can be more successful and in almost anything.

That is a perfect segue to your new book, The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind. There's so many interesting nuggets I don't want to waste any time getting right into it. So let's get a good understanding of how people change starting with what doesn't work. So typically, we tend to persuade and pressure and push, but even after all that work, nothing seems to move. And a lot of us think that we can just provide more information, provide more facts, more reasons, more arguments, and then people will end up changing, but that's not the case. In your book, you say that this approach assumes that most people are like marbles, push

them in one direction, and they'll go that way. But people aren't like marbles, so tell us about that. Yeah, I did a survey a few years ago, and so I was starting to think about this area, and trying to sort of think about whether there might be a new way to get people to change. And so I did a survey of executives and individuals across a wide variety of industries. So everybody from the C suite, all the way on down entrepreneurs, people that worked at big businesses, B2B, B2C, and I asked them two questions. I said, hey, what is something that you want to change, anything at all?

And then second, what's something you've tried to do to change it? And so people gave an array of different responses. Some people talked about trying to change a client's mind. Some people talked about trying to change consumer behavior. Leaders talked about transforming organizations. Non-profits talked about changing industries. Startups talked about changing the world, but when it came down to what they had tried, for over 98% of the responses I got back, it was some version of pushing.

And what do I mean by pushing? Well, let me add more facts, more figures, more reasons, more information. If I just tell you why, this is a good idea. If I could just explain to you, give you more information you would come around. Let me make one more phone call, one more pitch, send one more email if I'm a salesperson, for example. If I just push people a little harder, they'll go. And it's clear why we think that, right? You mentioned a marble, but we can even more simply think about a chair. If you're in a room and there's a chair, pushing is a great way to get

that chair to go. You put a pressure on one side and the chair slides across the floor, but when we apply that same intuition to people, it gets a little bit stickier. Because when we push people, they don't just slide across the floor. Often they dig in their heels, they push back, they think about all the reasons why they don't want to do what we suggested. So rather than pushing, we really need to take a different approach. Yeah. And as I was reading your book, I couldn't help but think I have a marketing agency. And so we're very successful. I have 70 people around the world who work for me.

But I don't land every deal that I talked to. And when I was thinking back about some of the bigger deals that I've lost, it was me like, overly trying to convince them with like use cases and references and this and that, and then they just ghosted me. And so it's just so funny to think about like the times where I didn't necessarily do that, how I won the deal, and how it really turns people off

when you just overly trying to convince them. Yeah, and I think, you know, there's a need analogy we made to chemistry here, and I don't know if you were going to talk about that soon, but if it's okay, I'll talk about it now for a second. But if you look at chemical change, it's really hard, right? So you think about a diamond, for example. It didn't start out a diamond. It started being carbon that was squeezed together through eons at time and temperature

and pressure. Gasoline was once plant matter and animal this and that, and it took a long time to get there. So, if you look in the lab, what chemists often do is they add temperature and pressure to create change. They heat things up, they squeeze it together to create change. But there's a special set of substances that chemists use to make change happen faster and easier.

They don't require more temperature and more pressure. They do everything from cleaning the grime on our contact lenses to clean the grime on our cars engine. And multiple Nobel Prizes have been one for innovations in the space. And very simply, these substances are called catalysts. Right? And when we think about catalysts in the social world, we go, that person was a change agent. That thing was a catalyst.

But catalysts actually is a very specific meaning. What's so neat about them is they allow change to happen with less energy, not more. Rather than pushing so much, they identify the barriers or the obstacles to change, and they mitigate them. And that's really what I've thought a lot about over the past few years, and this approach is all about, not pushing harder, but identifying the obstacles or barriers and mitigating them. It's almost like, imagine you're in a car. So you get in a walk out of a game or picking your kids up at the this or going to the office and your car is parked on a hill, you get in the car, you stick your key to the ignition,

you turn your key and you step your foot on the gas. If the car doesn't go, we just think we need more gas. The same thing happens with that potential client, that potential customer, that person that we're trying to sell something. We just think if we step on that gas a little more, they'll go. But here's the problem.

If that parking brake is pulled up, we can step on the gas all we want, and the car, or the person, isn't gonna go anywhere. And so the key insight is how can we be better at finding those parking brakes? How can we be better at identifying the obstacles or the barriers that are getting in the way? And by mitigating them, make change more likely. It's not about pushing hard, it's not more facts, more figures, more reasons, more pressure.

It's about figuring out what's getting in the way and moving those barriers. Yes. And I know that in your book, you say that asking a question like, why hasn't that person changed already can really help us start on the right foot when it comes to persuading others. So what kind of questions can we ask ourselves or ask other people to kind of understand the barriers that are at play? Yeah, you know, you mentioned negotiators and it reminded me.

I talked to a couple of us negotiators in writing this book, and they told a great story with, they basically said, look, new negotiators, novice negotiators, the first thing they do is they want to jump to influence. They want to start by saying, how can I get you wherever you are to do whatever it is that I want? And that often doesn't work, right? It often backfires. We'll talk about probably

a couple of minutes, the more you push people, the more they push back, the more they just like that, the more things we talk about, the more they dig in their heels. What season negotiators do is they start with the person they're trying to change. They start with understanding. They start by understanding them and what those obstacles or barriers are, and only then do they move to influence. You can think about the same thing with a doctor, right?

You don't go to the doctor, and the doctor isn't start by saying, let me put a cast on your leg. The doctor starts by saying, well, let me tell you what the problem is. What's the issue? What are you looking for? What do you need? And they use that diagnostic to help figure out the solution. And so whether we're a salesperson, whether we're an entrepreneur, whatever it is, I think starting with the same ideas, find the root. What is that underlying thing that's driving what the person is doing or not doing and use questions to figure out. Collect that information, understand what they need before you try to change them. When I do a consulting project or pitching for a consulting project, I always start by

saying, well, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to achieve here? What are you trying to get out of this? What are you looking for someone to offer? And then by here? What are you trying to get out of this? What are you looking for someone to offer? And then by understanding what they need, I can say, okay, great. Well, here's how I think, given what you're looking for, I can fit best.

Rather than jumping into a pitch that I have given up 100,000 times, that's great, but may not be the best fit for them, starting with them. It not only shows that you care, which I think is good, but it gives you more information to help you show them that you are the best solution for what they need. And I think that's a key insight, whether you're a hostage-gochiaid or a salesperson or otherwise, starting with them really helps you get to the best place for you as well. 100%. It reminds me of that quote, to be interesting, you've got to be interested. And

questions in general are just so important. Questions make people feel like you're listening, makes people feel like you care about them, and they feel good, they like you more. And we're gonna learn more about questions and why they're impactful in this discussion later on. Okay, so in the catalyst, you give readers five key barriers to change,

reactants, endowment, distance, uncertainty, and corroborating evidence. Let's discuss a few of them because we don't have time to discuss them all. So in terms of reactants, why is it so important to let people make their own decisions? Yeah, is there anything else I can tell a story here? Of course. Okay, so I don't know if your listeners are familiar with this thing called tide pods, but for many of you who do laundry, which is probably everybody, you've probably at least heard of tide pods, and I want to tell you a little story about them. So a few years ago, tide, owned by Procter and Gamble, wanted to make doing laundry faster

and easier. Doing laundry is not that difficult, not impossible, but you never know exactly how much you're detergent to add. You know, sometimes you spill it on your hands or the counter and it turns out to be better Some detergent went in early in the cycle and other detergent went in late And you can't do that with liquid or powder detergent So they spent a bunch of money on R&D and end up coming out with these thing called tide pods Basically set it and forget it the one day's little colorful things in the laundry and it takes care of the problem

They spend a hundred million dollars on marketing and they hope it takes a big chunk of the over billion dollar laundry industry. They release them. They're doing okay, but then they hit a snack, which is that people are eating them. You chuckle, I'm sure many people in the audience sort of gulped a little bit. You might sit there going, what do you mean, people are eating them, right? I mean, if they filled with chemicals, yes, they well, what do you mean, people are eating them, right? I mean, if they filled with chemicals, yes, they're filled with chemicals,

and yes, people are eating them. There was a video online that showed them melted on top of a pizza. There was an image saying they looked good enough to eat, and suddenly, mostly young people were challenging one another to eat Thai pots. It's called the Thai Pod Challenge, as many of you can remember.

Imagine you're a tight executive in this situation. You're sitting there going, I mean, how does this happen? People should know not to eat these things, but just in case we'll do what companies often do when they don't know what to do, which is we will put out oppressories. Telling people don't eat tidepots, right? And in case that's not enough, we'll do what a company's also doing they don't know what to do, which is higher celebrity. Rob Grunk-Grunkowski, to put big public service announcements saying, don't eat tide pods. They told people not to do it. Grunk told people not to do it. They thought that would be enough. If you look at the data, you see something

interesting. It's a little bit of attention, a little bit of attention. Tide releases their announcement. Now, the hope is that it will stem interest in the TidePod challenge. It will go down, people won't be interested anymore. But it turns out the exact opposite happens. There's a 400% increase in searches for the TidePod challenge, and it's not just parents wondering what their kids are up to. Visits de Poison Control shoot up as well. In the next two weeks, more people come into Poison Control than had the two years prior.

And basically, a warning became a recommendation, telling people not to do something made them more likely to do it. Now, you could look at this example and say, that's nuts, kids are crazy, what's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's actually just one example of a much broader phenomenon. And that is reactants. At the core, when pushed, people push back. Whether we're pushing people to do something,

or they're pushing them not to do something, right? They have an in-brain motive to push back against us. And so I'm happy to talk more about why that is, but I think that's a really great example of this underlying idea. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea

but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success. Instead learn everything you need to know about running a business for free by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. The Millionaire University podcast is a show that's changing the game for aspiring entrepreneurs. Hosted by Justin and Tara Williams, it's the ultimate resource for those who want to run a successful business and graduate rich, not broke.

Justin and Tara started from Square One, just like you and me. They faced lows and dug themselves out of huge debt. Now they're financially free and they're sharing their hard earned lessons with all of us. That's right, millionaire university will teach you everything you need to know about

starting and growing a successful business. No degrees required. In each episode you'll gain invaluable insights from seasoned entrepreneurs and mentors who truly understand what it takes to succeed. From topics like how to start a software business without creating your own software, to more broad discussions such as eight businesses you can start tomorrow to make 10K plus a month, this podcast has it all. So don't wait, now is the time to turn your business idea into a reality by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. New episodes drop Mondays and Thursdays.

Find the Millionaire University podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Your dog is an important part of your family. Don't settle when it comes to their health. Make the switch to fresh food made with real ingredients that are backed by science with nom nom nom delivers fresh dog food that is personalized to your dog's individual needs. Each portion is tailored to ensure your dog gets the nutrition they need so you can watch them thrive. Nom nom's ingredients are cooked individually and then mixed together because science tells us that every protein, carb, and veggie has different cooking times and methods.

This packs in all the vitamins and minerals your dog needs, so they truly get the most out of every single bite. And nom nom is completely free of additives, fillers, and mystery ingredients that contribute to bloating and low energy. Your dog deserves only the best, and Nom Nom delivers just that. Their nutrient packed recipes are crafted by board certified veterinary nutritionists, made fresh and ship to your door. Absolutely free. Nom Nom meals started just $2.40, and every meal is cooked in company owned kitchens right here in the US, and they've already delivered over 40 million meals, inspiring clean bowls and wagging tails everywhere. Ever since I started feeding my dog Nom Nom,

he's been so much more energetic, and he's getting older, he's a senior dog, but now we've been going on longer walks, and he's much more playful. He used to be pretty sluggish and sleeping all the time, but I've definitely noticed a major improvement since I started feeding him nom nom. And the best part, they offer a money back guarantee. If your dog's tail isn't wagging within 30 days, they'll refund your first order. No fillers, no nonsense, just nom nom. Go right now for 50% off your no risk 2 week trial at trinom.com.shap. That's trinom.nom.com.shap for 50% off trinom.com slash.yap. People just want to engage in that forbidden behavior, right? So I'd love to understand

why that is, like why do people push back and do things even when they must know that it's not good for them? Yeah. I mean, I think the tied example is certainly an strange one, but this happens all the time, right? It's not just if something's dangerous we push back, even when someone tries to get us to do something, we become less likely to do it. And the reason why, essentially, is we like being in the driver seat, right? It's all about freedom and autonomy.

Why do I make this choice? Why did I buy this product? Why did I make this choice? Why did I buy this product? Why did I use this service? Why did I work with this supplier? Why did I agree to do whatever it might be? I did it because I wanted to. I'm in the driver's seat. I'm making my choices.

But as soon as we, whether we are an entrepreneur, whether we are a colleague, whether we are a marketer, whether we are salesperson, whoever we are, or a boss, however, whoever we are, as soon as we come and we say, hey, you should do this. Now it's no longer clear as in the driver's seat. Right? Are they in the driver's seat or are we in the driver's seat? And the more it feels like we're in the driver's seat, the less interested they are in doing what we want. Essentially, people have an ingrained anti-persuasion radar. Right? So you can think about it like a missile defense system or something that's sort of scanning the environment

for incoming projectiles. When they detect one, they engage in a set of defensive actions. So think about what happens when you're watching TV and then add comes on. You change the channel, you leave the room. Think what happens when you get a piece of direct mail that's someone you're not expecting.

You throw it away. Think what happens when you get a pitch over email or a phone call from a telemarker. You hang up the phone, you delete the email, and all these cases, we avoid or ignore the message. We engage in a set of defensive actions to avoid being persuaded, but it's not just those. Even worse is counter-argaring. And some of you are probably doing this right now, right? Yes, someone's listening to us. We're pitching, we're talking, we're suggesting something. They're listening, but they're not just listening. They're thinking about all the reasons why what we're suggesting is wrong. Why it's too expensive, why it won't work, why it won't integrate with what they're doing already,

whatever it might be, poking and prodding the argument till it comes crumbling down. And so I think the key insight is we can't push people. We have to allow for autonomy. We have to give them back some sense of freedom and control and put them back in the driver's seat. Awesome. And we're going to talk about strategies and tactics to put them back in the driver's seat.

But before we do, when you were talking about getting people, like, not only does this happen when we're saying, don't do something. So the government says, don't drink and drive, don't smoke cigarettes. That doesn't work. But it also the same thing goes if we say eat less fat or take your vaccine for COVID-19. And so as I was reading a book, I think it you wrote it before COVID because you didn't have any of that in there. And I'm sure you would have if you had written in

the COVID world. But you must have seen the CDC and how they approached getting people to take their vaccines. And I would love to hear like your thoughts about what they could have done better or what they did good or what they did bad. I think it's so interesting. Yeah, so I had the bad fortune to release this book basically two days before COVID hit. And so I launched against a much more formidable opponent than I predicted. And so everything shut down from bookstores to, you know, no one was interested in buying books at the moment.

Everyone was interested in figuring out what was going on with COVID. And so in some sense, it was a terrible time to release a book. But it was also an amazing time to release a book on change. And that so much of what I had talked about played out in the world. And so I wrote a piece for HBR about a month into the pandemic initially about how some of these strategies could be applied.

And it's amazing when we talk about these things. I mean, this is exactly part of the problem, right? What did the government say? What did the CDC say? They said, first off, don't go to stores. Don't shop anywhere. Get a vaccine. Wear a mask. Don't do this. Do that. Basically, if you want someone to do someone, tell them to do it. If you don't want them to do something, tell them not to do it. And the challenge with this is even if everyone would have done it that originally, hey, nobody wants to be unsafe. nobody's interested in getting sick or hurting themselves.

But the more they feel like somebody else is telling them what to do, particularly the government for some people, the less interested they become in doing it, right? They would have been fine if they came to that decision themselves, but because they feel like someone else is telling them what to do, they're less likely to do it. And so, you know, we'll talk about some of these strategies, but I wrote a lot in the piece about how we could use these strain strategies to deal with COVID, not telling people do this or don't do that, but encouraging them to come to that conclusion themselves, in some sense guiding them down a journey to encourage them to move in a direction, but not forcing them in that direction, the more they feel forced, the more they feel cornered,

the less interested they are in doing what we want. It's super interesting and feel free to use that as an example as we go through and talk about some of these strategies. So let's talk about one of the strategies that you talk about in terms of counteracting reactants. And that's to let people choose their own path, give them a menu of options, so to speak.

So how does that help? Yeah, so let's go back to a simple example we talked about, ready, you're pitching something, okay? You're pitching something to a potential client or a potential user, whatever they might be. What do we tend to do? We tend to pitch them one option. This is what I think you should do.

This is why I am the best choice for you. This is why this product or service is the best choice for you. This is what I think you should do. And we've all been in that meeting, right? Everyone's sitting there shaking their head. Really, if we opened up their head, if we could do that, what would be going on inside is counter-arguing. This is why it's not going to work. This is why someone else might be better. This is why I should do something else, sort of poking and prodding that argument. And so what great catalyst, what great change agents do is they don't just give people one option, they give them multiple. They say, hey, I think you should do X or

Y. Which one do you think is better? And notice what that does, right? It's subtly, but importantly shifts the role of the listener. Rather than sitting there and thinking about all the reason they don't like what we suggested, we've given them a new job. And that new job is to say, well, which of these do I like better? And because they're focused on which one they like better, they're much more likely to pick one at the end of a meeting. And so I call this providing a menu really simply because this is what happens when we go out to dinner.

When you go out to dinner at a restaurant, they don't say, here's dinner. They say, what would you like for dinner? But notice what they also don't say. They also don't say, what would you like, period for dinner? They say, here's a limited say. They also don't say, what would you like? Period for dinner. They say, here's a limited set of options. Choose from within that choice set.

And so in that sense, it's guided choice. You're not giving people no options, but you're not giving people unlimited options. Even the limited set, encouraging them to focus on those options and be more likely to pick one. Now, could they pick something off menu? They certainly could. But if the options are good enough, they're going to spend their time energy focused on what's there, rather

than what is it, and be more likely to choose from them. So it's not about giving them fake options, and it's not about giving them 500 options, which would be overwhelming and won't work either. But it's about giving them two, three, four, maybe five tops options that are real options that encourage them to focus on what's on the table, rather than what isn't, and encourage them to choose from, the set you wanted them to choose from in the first place. Yeah, I think that's such an unbelievable strategy.

And so basically what you're saying is, if you give somebody one choice, they're gonna just try to poke holes in it. They're gonna try to just figure out what's wrong with it, why it's not for them, and they're gonna just focus on that. But if you give them multiple choices, they're gonna be comparing the choices rather

than poking holes in everything. Yeah, I find this happens to me, and it maybe happens to you as well when we shop online, also. So when you go to a store that only has a couple of options, or you're buying something to category, you know comes from multiple retailers. When you look at one place, you tend to want to go to check somewhere else, right? Maybe they'll have a lower price. Maybe they'll have better options, better colors, better selection. If I'm just looking at one place, maybe I should look elsewhere. But if you go on Amazon, often they'll have two, three, 15, 25 different options in the category. I was just looking at

bird seed for where we ran out of bird seed. So I need more bird seed, right? There were so many options on Amazon. So many didn't even think about going anywhere else, right? Because I'm assuming, well, there's enough good things here. I don't need to look elsewhere, and I can focus within the options that are here. And I'm not saying, be like Amazon and give people hundreds of options, but the notion is the same. If people, if you're giving people enough that they feel like that set is reasonable, and they can focus there, they don't need to look anywhere else.

Yeah, totally makes sense. So let's move on to another strategy you have in the book called Ask Don't Tell. And basically you're saying to ask questions rather than making statements. So how can we use this to counteract reactants? Yeah, so you know, when we make statements, as we've talked about already, people push back, right? If I'm the CDC and I'm saying, you need to get vaccinated because it's dangerous if you're not, people go, oh, well, yeah, my cousin though. I mean, he or she's not vaccinated and they're fine. If we're pitching something, we say,

oh, this is why we're better, someone focuses on why. It's not. But questions allow us to get around that, right? Rather than trying to persuade people, it allows us to get them to persuade themselves. I was talking to a startup founder a few years ago and she was having trouble motivating her team. She had a big team of engineers and other folks and there was a big deadline coming up and they needed to work harder and put an extra hours and people didn't just, they didn't want to do it, they didn't want to work weekends, they didn't want to work nights and

so she's pushing and pushing people weren't changing. So finally she calls a meeting and she starts with a rhetorical question, not a real one but a rhetorical one. She says, hey, what kind of company do we want to be? A good company or a great company? Now, we know everyone answers. That question is, ah, a great company. But then she asks her real question,

she says, how do we get there? How can we become a great company? And she starts a conversation, right? And questions, as we've talked a little bit about already, do a couple things, right? First, they deactivate that antipersuation later. Rather than thinking about why they hate what the boss is suggesting and pushing back against that statement,

they've got a different job, right? Coming up with their opinion about how the company could become better, which people are more than happy to do. Right, there are very few things, people like more than sharing their opinion. And so you've gotten them engaged, which people are more than happy to do. They're very few things. People like more than sharing their opinion. And so you've gotten them engaged, which is good. They're leaning in rather than leaning back.

But second, it allows sort of collect information. And this goes back, I think, to one of the first questions you asked me in the interview. How do we collect that information? Questions are a great way to get there. We may have a sense of what someone wants. We may have a sense of what we think is good for the organization, but by asking them, we get much better information that can help us do something better.

I work with a lot of clients when I say, hey, why didn't someone change? Why didn't something work? And they don't know. Questions allow us to get to those answers that help us target our appeals and be more effective. But the third thing that questions do, we talked a little bit about it already, is they encourage commitment to the conclusion, right?

Because now if someone says, oh, well, I think the best way for us to become a great company is to do this. And you say great, we're going to do that. It's a lot harder for them to say I don't want to. Because they suggested in the first place, same in sales, right? If you say great, what are you looking for?

And they say, I'm looking for X. And then you say great, well, you know, we have X, we are X, we do X. It's a lot harder for them to say, well, I don't want this because they told you what they wanted, right? And you told them how you achieve that. And so I was talking to someone and said, you know, it's so funny. My boss loves feeling like, you know, whatever I come up with is his idea. I said, the only funny part is it's not just you are boss. Everyone likes feeling like something is their idea, right? The more you can give away ownership, the more you can let people participate in both the choice of the outcome and the journey, the more ownership they have, the more bought and they are, and the more now it's

not your solution. It's theirs, and they want to see it succeed. Yeah. Based on what you said, it just sounds like people are more bought in when you're asking questions and you can get them to the same outcome and endpoint, but they're getting it on their own and you're kind of just spoon feeding them the thought process to get there. Yeah, and I think this is,

I mean, it's interesting in a couple ways, right? So some of us say, well, oh man, I want to get to the best thing for me. Why does caring about my customer client or a colleague or whatever it is? That's not going to help me get there, right? And I think that's not only narrow-minded, but also wrong, right? The more you understand what other people want, the more you can help them get what they want and help yourself along the way, right?

And so it's not the better off you make them, the worse you make yourself, very much the opposite. The better off you make them, the more they're going to like you, the more they're going to choose you, and the more you're going to win as well. And so whether it's sales or convincing clients or otherwise, I think understanding that person that you're interacting with is really powerful. So, in your book, you give some more tactics in terms of self-persuasion. So, let's talk about highlighting a gap, and can you help us understand why internal consistency is a big factor when it comes to driving human behavior? Yeah, so there's a great example of this. I'll sort of unpack the example, and then we can talk about it more generally.

So, there's an organization in Thailand called the Thai Health Promotion Foundation. And they're trying to get people to quit smoking. And the only problem is no one wants to quit smoking. And so they're trying to figure out what can we do to get people to quit. And so they end up coming out with this campaign where they have people walk up to smokers on the street and they ask smokers for a light.

Well, that's something if you're a smoker happens all the time. So when I ask you for a light, smokers often say yes, usually say yes. But this time the smokers say no. And the reason the smokers say no is that the person who asked them is a kid. Someone who looks eight to 10 years old, a little boy with a monkey shirt, a little girl with pig tails, they say, can I have a light? And the smokers say, no, hey, I'm not going to give you a light. You're a little kid. Don't you want to go run and play? Smoking will make you look old. It'll give you lung cancer, and pizema. Smoking has pesticides in it.

Cigarettes have pesticides. All these horrible things. No, I'm not going to give you a cigarette. They basically give the young people a lecture about why smoking is bad. And the young person shakes their ideas and goes, okay? And then they say, but then why are you smoking? And they hand them a little card that says, hey, you worry about me, but not yourself. If you're interested in quitting, here's a number to call to help you out. Now, this campaign is hugely successful. 40% increase in costs.

The Quitline videos the campaign go viral on the web, get millions of views. But I think what is the coolest about this campaign, the most interesting thing is why it works. What makes it so effective? And so the Health Promotion Foundation had a key insight. And that key insight was, look, we can't push people. We're going to push people. I'm going to talk about they're going to push back.

We have to figure out another way to get them to change. And I think that has broader implications. Often as change agents, we think information is the issue. You haven't changed because you don't have the right information. If I give you that information, you'll change. That's very self-focused and egocentric. It's not thinking about the person who want to change. Often they have all the information. Smokers know all the dangers of smoking. It's not like they don't know. They are, they know more than doctors about the dangers of smoking, yet they're still doing it. And so telling them to quit because it's

not healthy for the missing work. And so they said, well, how can we get those smokers, as you nicely said, to convince themselves? And so what they did is something called highlighting a gap. People want their attitudes and their actions to line up. If I say I care about the environment, I better recycle. If I say I care about a certain sports team, I better watch their games. If I say I care about, you know, kids not smoking, I better not smoke. We want our attitudes and our actions to line up, and if they don't, a negative emotional reaction occurs,

called cognitive dissonance, and so people do work to reduce that dissonance. They change their attitudes, where they change their actions. In this case, they have two options. Hey, I can quit smoking, which might be a good idea, or I can tell these kids smoking is okay, which I'm not going to do. So I better quit smoking, which is what 40% of them did. And so what this campaign did is it highlighted gap. Often attitudes and actions aren't next to one another. A prospective client may say that they care about a certain thing one day, and hear your pitch another day, and they're not connecting those two things. And so why it's called highlighting gap is let's bring them together. Let's show where hey, you know, you say you care about this thing. Okay, great. Let me remind you of this thing when encouraging you to take an action. So that I'm not telling

you, hey, take this action. I'm saying, well, didn't you care about this thing? Cool. Maybe you want to change your behavior, encouraging them to change their own behavior. So bring it back to COVID, right? You see somebody who's, you know, not wearing a mask in the office and you're worried about your own health or, you know, you see someone who's anti-vaccine in a way that may be dangerous to you and your own family or your friends. Rather than say, hey, why are you doing this? You're wrong. You need to do it.

Instead say something, hey, imagine your parents or elderly grandparents were around. Imagine your kids were around. Would you want other people to be vaccinated? Would you want other people to wear their masks? Ask them a question that you know they'll say yes to, pick something you know they'll say yes to, and then say, great. Interesting. But then why aren't you wearing one?

I'm not telling them, hey, you need to do this. They'll say, no, wait, leave me alone. Encouraging them to go, huh, I seem to care about this, but I'm not behaving in a way like I care about it. Maybe I should do something about it, which is exactly what people do. It goes back to questions and ask questions, not statements. It sort of relates to that as well. It certainly can, yeah. And I think, you know, it's not just about asking questions, about asking the right questions, right? And we can use questions to do it. We can use other ways to do it, but bringing those things

to the floor certainly. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. You hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now. But in case you don't, that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing

millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you sell edgy t-shirts or offer an educational course like me, Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Shopify is packed with industry leading tools that are ready to ignite your growth, giving you complete control over your business and brand, without having to learn any new skills in design or code. And Shopify grows with you no matter how big your business gets. Thanks to an endless list of integrations and third party apps, anything you can think of from on-demand printing

to accounting to chatbots, Shopify has everything you need to revolutionize your business. If you're a regular listener, you probably know that I use Shopify to sell my LinkedIn secrets masterclass. Setting up my Shopify store just took me a few days. I didn't have to worry about my website and how I was gonna collect payments and how I was gonna trigger abandoned cart emails

and all these things that Shopify does for me with just the click of a button, even setting up my chat bot was just a click of a button. It was so easy to do. Like I said, just took a couple of days. And so it just allowed me to focus on my actual product and making sure my LinkedIn masterclass was the best it could be. And I was able to focus on my marketing. So Shopify really, really helped me make sure that my masterclass was going to be a success right off bat, it enabled focus. And focus is everything when it comes to entrepreneurship. With Shopify single dashboard,

I can manage my orders and my payments from anywhere in the world. And like I said, it's one of my favorite things to do every day is check my Shopify dashboard. It is a rush of dopamine to see all those blinking lights around the world showing me where everybody is logging on on the site. I love it. I highly recommend it. Shopify is a platform that I use every single day and it can take your business to the next level. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. Again, go to Shopify.com-profiting all lowercase to take your business to the next level today. Again, that Shopify.com-profiting, Shopify.com-profiting all lowercase.

This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Yeah, bam. If you're ready to take your business to new heights, break through to the six or seven figure mark or learn from the world's most successful people, look no further because the Kelly Roach show has got you covered. Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely talented marketer. She's the owner of Not One, but six thriving companies, and now she's ready to share her knowledge and experience with you on the Kelly Roach show. Kelly is an inspirational entrepreneur, and I highly respect her. She's been a guest on YAP. She was a former social client.

She's a podcast client. And I remember when she came on young and profiting, and she talked about her conviction marketing framework, it was like mind blowing to me. I remember immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company and the marketing efforts that we were doing. And as a marketer, I really, really respect

all Kelly has done, all Kelly has built. In the corporate world, Kelly secured seven promotions in just eight years, but she didn't just stop there. She was working in I-5. And at the same time, she built her eight-figure company as a side hustle and eventually took it and made her full-time hustle. And her strategic business goals led her to win the prestigious Inc. 500 award for the fastest-growing business in the United States. 500 award for the fastest growing business in

the United States. She's built an empire she's earned a life-changing wealth. And on top of all that she maintains a happy marriage and a healthy home life. On the Kelly Road show, you'll learn that it's possible to have it all. Tune into the Kelly Road show as she unveils her secrets for growing your business. It doesn't matter if you're just starting out in your career or if you're already a seasoned entrepreneur. In each episode, Kelly shares the truth about what it takes to create rapid, exponential growth. Unlock your potential, unleash your success, and start living your dream life today. Tune into the Kelly Road Show available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, Yap fam! As you may know, I've been a full-time entrepreneur for three

years now. Yet media blew up so fast, it was really hard to keep everything under control, but things have settled a bit, and I'm really focused on revamping and improving our company culture. I have 16 employees, so it's a lot of people to try to rally and motivate, and I recently had best-selling author Kim Scott on the show. And after previewing her content in our conversation, I just knew I had to take her class on master class, tackle the hard conversations with radical candor to really absorb all she has to offer.

And now I'm using her radical candor method every day with my team to give insolicit feedback, to cultivate a more inclusive culture and to empower them with my honesty. And I can see my team feeling more motivated and energized already. They are really receptive to this framework and I'm so happy because I really needed this class. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace.

And we all know that profiting in life doesn't just mean thriving in business. With masterclass, you can brush up on your art skills or your cooking skills or even your modeling skills. With over 180 classes from a range of world class instructors, that thing you've always wanted to do better is just a few clicks away. On masterclass, you'll find courses from many appaulsar guests like Chris Voss and Daniel Pink. I've been taking their sales and negotiation classes and I've been feeling like a real shark lately. I've totally leveled up my sales skills. How much would it cost you to take a one-on-one class from the world's best?

A lot. But with Masterclass annual memberships, it just cost you $10 a month. I have to say the most surprising thing about masterclass since I started this incredible journey on the platform is the value for the quality of classes instructors. The platform itself is beautiful. The videos are super high quality. You can't beat it. as little as 10 minutes on your phone, your computer, tablet, smart TV, and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go. That way, I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now as the app listener,

you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com-profiting. That's masterclass.com-profiting for 15% off an annual membership. Masterclass.com slash profiting. Okay, so let's talk about endowment. So I thought this one was really interesting too. It basically says that when something is hours, we actually value it more.

So what else can you tell us about the endowment effect? Yeah, I think the big challenge here, and I'm happy to cover up a couple more things, but I think the big challenge here is people think old things are safe and new ones are risky. If I have an existing supplier, if I'm buying a certain product already using a certain service, I feel like that thing is safe, and whatever the new thing is is risky. Why? Because I haven't used it yet.

I tend to stick with the old things. That's the endowment effect where it's attached to the old. And I tend to think new things are risky and unsafe. But we often don't realize that old things aren't as costless as we might think, right? We think, oh, the old way is easier. And it is easier, but we may not realize how challenging it is. A couple of years ago, I was talking with cousin of mine, every time he wrote an email, would sign at the bottom,

best Charles, every time he wrote that email. And I was sort of going home, you know, why don't you use an email, would sign at the bottom best Charles. Every time he wrote that email. And I was sort of going home, you know, why don't you use an email signature, right? Wouldn't that save you time? He's going, well, no, because it only takes me a couple of seconds to write best Charles. It would take me minutes to figure out an email signature and how to do it.

And so it's not worth the time. And so I sort of pushed him and pushed him and he wouldn't do it. And finally I said, interesting, how many emails do you write a day? He said, I don't know, you know, 30, 40, I said, interesting. How many emails do you write a day? I don't know, 30, 40, 50, whatever it is. How many do you write a week? He said, I don't know, 200, 300 emails.

How much time do you spend every week writing your email signature? Many thought about it, and then he goes online and figures out how to automate his email signature. Because at each moment, it's always cheaper to do the old thing than the new thing. The new thing is always going to be more costly at the beginning. But over time, it's action ends up being better. And so the challenge is how can we highlight the cost of an action? How can we make people realize that doing the old thing that's sticking with what they're doing

already isn't as costless as it might seem? Okay, as we're wrapping up the interview here, we're running out of time. I did want to ask a more general question. So earlier, we were talking about giving too much information, like giving that extra deck, trying to convince people, giving them facts, thinking that we're going to push them to get to a conclusion. But there has to be some way for information to be relevant

to getting people to make a decision. So what's the wrong way in the right way to use information to try to getting people to make a decision. So what's the wrong way in the right way to use information to try to persuade people? Yeah, I'm not saying to ignore information. I'm not saying that information is never part of the solution. But there's a difference between someone asking for information and us forcing it on them, right? We talked about before, you know, the cases where people are leaning in versus pushing back, the cases where people are drawn in and want more from you, rather sort of shying away drawn in and want more from you,

rather sort of shying away and trying to get away from you, I think information is great at the right time in the journey. I like thinking about customer journeys, even if they're not a quote unquote customer, what is that path to purchase or action whoever that customer might be? And there's certainly a place for information. Particularly if I'm gonna buy something complicated

or do something different, I'm gonna need some information. Maybe I have that information, right? Particularly if I'm going to buy something complicated or do something different, I'm going to need some information. Maybe I have that information, maybe I don't. But starting with someone pushing that information down my throat is going to leave me to do the exact opposite. It's going to leave me to run away. And so it's more about rather than selling people starting with a conversation, finding out what they need, finding out how you can help them, find out what they care about, and then helping them get to where they need to be.

In some cases showing them the best way for them to get what they want is by doing what you wanted them to do in the first place. And that's where you can bring that information. You're talking to a customer, hey, what are you looking for? We care about XYZ. Awesome. Do you know how we provide that? Do you know what we do on those dimensions?

Do you know how I could help you there? They say, yes, awesome. If they say, no, I'd like to learn more. It's a great opportunity to tell them more. But get them asking you for it rather than sort of stuff at an end time. Okay, so one of the last questions I want to ask you on this topic is about uncertainty tax. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, sure. And I think a good way to describe this actually a story in my own life a couple of years ago. So I was getting on a plane to go somewhere to speak in an event or something. And I got a note that every traveler dreads

saying, you know, your flight is delayed. And I didn't want to be delayed at all. Obviously, I was worried about missing this event, or worried about getting together with the client, whatever it was. And so I was worried about it, worried about it, worried about it. And if we think about the worst outcome that could happen there, the worst outcome that happened is that I missed my meeting, worried about it, worried about it. And if we think about the worst outcome that could happen there,

the worst outcome that happened is that I missed my meeting. That's a bad outcome. That's the worst that can happen. But it actually is funny when they eventually canceled the flight. And so I couldn't make my meeting. In some sense, I was better than I was before. Because now that I know that the meeting was canceled,

I could set up another meeting, or I could green to do something on Zoom, or I could figure out a way to solve it. And so when it turns out we hate is not the worst outcome. Sometimes we hate the uncertainty, right? What's even worse than the worst outcome in a situation is not knowing what that outcome is. There was a great study that was done where they asked some people, how much would you pay for a $100 gift card?

Now that's another set of people, how much would you pay for a $50 gift card? Amazon or whatever it is. So, you know, one set of people gave their number, another set of people gave their number, and then they said, with third group of people, hey, how much would you pay for a gift card? You're not going to know whether it's $100 or $50, but it's going to be one or the other. How much would you pay for that card? Now, you would expect that third set of people, the lowest they would have been willing to pay was for the $50 gift card, because worst case, that's what they're going to get.

But what the researchers found is that the valuation was even lower than the $50 gift card, because people don't just dislike uncertainty, they devalue uncertainty. Anytime there's uncertainty, we decide to do nothing. We don't want to take action. Essentially, we hit the pause button, which is great for the status quo, which is great for whatever people are doing previously, but is terrible for moving forward. And so I talk about in the book a lot of ways to alleviate uncertainty, remove that uncertainty,

because that's key a lot of times with stopping people is not just information, it's the uncertainty that is this gonna be good or not, and if I don't know if it's gonna be good, I might as well stick with what I'm doing already. Yeah, and that's why since we were talking about sales, like pilot programs or a trialling or even money back guarantees, they all work because they kind of reduce the uncertainty.

Yeah, you know, I talk about the book about freemium or test drives or free samples, all these things. And we think freemium is sort of this new business model that's completely different, but at the core what freemium really does, it allows people to experience the value of what we're offering. And here's the challenge, whatever you're allows people to experience the value of what we're offering. And here's the challenge, whatever you're telling people to do, they've got an old thing they're doing ready.

You're saying the new thing is better, but how do they know it's better? And as we've talked about, there's all this cost upfront to switch to something new. And so what we're trying to do is lower that parity trial, make it easier for them to experience the value of what you're offering so that they say,

hey, it's pretty good. Now it's worth paying some, whether time, effort, or money to learn a bit more. Awesome. So everybody, this book is absolutely amazing. Like I wish we had enough time to cover all five barriers because it's so interesting. Jonah, thank you so much for joining us.

One of the last questions that we ask our guests on the show is what is one actionable thing that our young and profitors can do today to be more profiting tomorrow? I would say identify the roadblocks. Whatever it is that you're trying to do, whether you're trying to convince a customer or a client, whether you're trying to convince a boss or a colleague, whether you're trying to start a new business, whatever you're trying to do, what are the roadblocks that are getting in the way of that person, people, organizations

you're trying to change? The more we understand about them, the more we understand about the things that are preventing them from changing, the more effective catalysts we can be. Awesome. And what is your secret to profiting in life? I think always be curious. We're born, however we're born, we can't become smarter than we are necessarily, but we can always be curious. And I think it's a great skill. You know, wherever we are, whatever we're dealing with, I think the more we approach life with wonder and ask questions, the more successful we'll be. I love that. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do?

Sure. Yeah. Joneberger.com, just j-o-n-h-b-e-r-g-e-r.com. There's a bunch of free resources there, so guides for changing a customer, a client's mind, changing a boss's mind, videos, one-pagers, all sorts of stuff to help you and your journey to apply these ideas. Awesome, I love this conversation, thank you so much. No problem, thanks for having me.

What a great conversation with Jonah. As you guys probably know, I love having human behavior experts on the show. It's so much fun to understand how we operate as people and why we do the things that we do. It's just my favorite thing to talk about. And there was a handful of big ideas that I took from this conversation. Number one, it's common to think that people are like marbles or to assume that people are like marbles. Push them in one direction and they're going to go that way. But that's not the case. We learned today that change does not happen by being more

persuasive or by pushing harder. It happens by removing roadblocks and reducing barriers to change. It happens by removing roadblocks and reducing barriers to change. Identify what's preventing change from happening and remove that barrier. Allow change to happen with less energy and not more. So that was my first takeaway. And the second takeaway that I had is that people need freedom to drive their own behavior. When pushed, people push back. Just like a missile defense system protects against incoming projectiles, people have this innate anti-persuasion system. You

want to remove the barrier that Jonah calls reactants by providing choice and options when trying to get somebody to take action. Reactants is basically people pushing back on what you're pushing on them because you told them to do it and didn't give them room to make their own choice about it. Instead of telling someone to do a thing or not do a thing, give them a menu of options to choose from. Rather than telling people what to do or trying to persuade, catalysts allow for agency and encourage people to convince themselves. So instead of thinking about what was wrong with whatever was suggested, the person you're

trying to convince will think about which option is better. And rather than poking holes in whatever was raised, they think about which of the options is best for them. You can also allow for agency by listening, asking questions, and showing empathy. The third takeaway for me was that highlighting a gap and internal consistency is a huge factor when it comes to driving human behavior. The smoking kit campaign was a great example of this. It worked because it highlighted a gap, a disconnect between what smokers were suggesting to others and what they were actually doing themselves. The fourth key takeaway for me was the barrier of endowment. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. People are wedded to what they're already

doing. When something is ours, we value it more. When people think about changing, they compare things to their current state. The status quo. And if the potential gains barely outweigh the potential losses, they don't budge. This is the endowment effect. Caterlizing change isn't just about making people more comfortable with new things, it's about helping them let go of old things. We can surface the cost of an action to reduce the endowment barrier and help people realize that doing nothing isn't as costless as it may seem. And the last takeaway I had from this interview was that change often involves uncertainty.

Will a new product, service, or idea be as good as the old one? It's hard to know for sure. And this uncertainty makes people hit the pause button, halting action. To overcome this barrier, catalysts make things easier to try and alleviate uncertainty. For example, you can offer a risk-free trial or a money-back guarantee. Remember, easier to try makes you more likely to buy.

There were so many other barriers to change that we didn't get to cover in this interview, so I would highly recommend that you go get Jonas Book, the catalyst to learn them all if you enjoy hearing about how to better persuade and change people's minds. I love these kinds of topics because they're super applicable in every part of life from home to business and everything in between. I hope that you learned a thing or two, and you are gonna apply it soon to become even more young and profiting.

And let me know if you did by dropping us a five star review on your favorite podcast player. It's the number one way to thank us here on Young and Profiting Podcast. You can find me on Instagram at YappwithHala and tag me in your story right now if you listened all the way to the end of the show, let's chop it up in the DMs.

And I'm also on LinkedIn, just search for my name. It's Hala, Taha. Much love to my loyal Yav team, as always. The team is bigger and stronger than ever. And I love to thank the universe each and every single morning for all of you and how lucky I am to be leading this wonderful organization here at Young

and Profiting Podcasts and Yat Media with the mission to help the world listen, learn, and profit through me here at the podcast, through our clients and their respective social and podcast channels, and even now through our dozens of podcasters in the Yat Media Podcast Network. It is a beautiful mission that we have, and we are living a beautiful life that I'm happy to share with you all here on the YAP Media team, my young and profiting listeners. I appreciate every single one of you. And with that, this is Hala, signing off.

Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every every week we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences We also feature segments like know yourself better where we discuss questions like are you an over buyer or an under buyer?

Morning person or night person, abundance lover or service? We also have a lot of questions about how to make a new product. We also have a lot of questions about how to make a new product. We also have a lot of questions about how to make a new product. We also have a lot of questions about how to make a new product. We also have a lot of questionsself Better, where we discuss questions like, are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever? And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happy. Listen and follow the podcast happier with Gretchen Rubin.

A journal is a journey, a place to gather thoughts, and become the best version of you. Papier creates thoughtfully crafted notebooks, journals, and more. They're curated journals cover themes like wellness, goals, and gratitude. Best of all, you can personalize each product for free. Put pen to paper and start your journey today with Papier. Visit Papier.com for 10% off your first order. your journey today with Papier. Visit Papier.com for 10% off your first order. That's 10% off at PAPAR.com.