Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jonah Berger on How to Change Anyone's Mind | Human Behavior

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, Yap, Bam. Today we're replaying my first interview with Jonah Berger, a full-time professor at Wharton University and a world-renowned expert on change, influence, and consumer behavior. He's also the best-selling author of four books on persuasion, influence, and the psychology of language. In this Yap classic, Jonah explains why people are resistant to change and how we can counteract that. We'll learn why people enjoy partaking in forbidden behaviors and how we can successfully encourage them not to. And Jonah will teach us how to think like a seasoned negotiator by asking the right questions. If you want to learn how to change anyone's mind, this episode is for you. Without further ado, and join my interview with Jonah Burger.

Starting point is 00:00:53 Hey Jonah, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation. You are a world-renowned expert on the science of social influence, consumer behavior, and how products, ideas, and behaviors catch on. I, I personally love these conversations. We always talk about persuasion and influence on Young and Profiting Podcast, so I can't wait to dive into it all and your book The Catalyst. So first off, I'd love to learn more about you and your journey and how you found yourself here.

Starting point is 00:01:23 From our research, we found out that you grew up in D.C. And all throughout school, you tested at genius levels. So curious to understand why you decided to study human behavior and what got you interested in all of this. I don't know who said I tested at genius levels, but that's the first. very generous of them. You know, I've always been interested in science. I've always been interested in how things work. I grew up, I went to like a magnet high school for math science and computer science, but I was particularly interested in applying those tools to the social sciences, right?

Starting point is 00:01:53 So experimentation is great, research is great, data is great, but can we use those same tools to understand human behavior? When I was growing up as a kid, I used to have ads up on my wall. You know, it's like my favorite Nike ad or my favorite this ad or my favorite that ad. And I started to wonder, you know, why are some ads more effective than others? Why do some products become popular? Why do some things catch on while others fail? Why do we do what we do? And I started realizing that there was an opportunity to study that. I was actually in college and I was doing a major called Science, Technology, and Society, where they look at the interaction between society and sort of science and tech. And we're reading this article about how the way we build buildings affects how

Starting point is 00:02:34 people raise their children. So if you think about it, you know, you live in a sort of a one-story home with a yard outside, do kids play out front with the neighbors? You live in a big, tall apartment building. There's further down to the ground, harder for parents to see what the kids are up to. And so maybe the parents are less willing to let their kids out. And so it's interesting to think about, well, wow, building design might affect the way kids grow up. And I sort of asked the professor was like, hey, you know, there are other courses you'd recommend or I could learn more about this stuff and they said social psychology. And so I started taking social psychology courses. I started doing research. I was fortunate enough to do some research with a guy named Chip Heath, who now we know

Starting point is 00:03:13 from books like Made to Stick and Decisive and others. And it really kind of started my journey into doing research to study sort of who we are and what we do. That is a perfect segue to your new book, The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind. There's so many interesting nuggets. I don't want to waste any time getting right into it. let's get a good understanding of how people change, starting with what doesn't work. So typically, we tend to persuade and pressure and push, but even after all that work, nothing seems to move. And a lot of us think that we can just provide more information, provide more facts, more

Starting point is 00:03:47 reasons, more arguments, and then people will end up changing, but that's not the case. In your book, you say that this approach assumes that most people are like marbles, push them in one direction, and they'll go that way. But people aren't like marbles, so tell us about that. Yeah, you know, I did a survey a few years ago, and so I was starting to think about this area and trying to sort of think about whether there might be a new way to get people to change. And so I did a survey of executives and individuals across a wide variety of industries. So everybody from, you know, the C suite all the way on down, entrepreneurs, people that

Starting point is 00:04:19 worked at big businesses, B2B, B2C, and I asked them two questions. I said, hey, what is something that you want to change, anything at all? And then second, what's something you've tried to do to change it? And so people gave an array of different responses. Some people talked about trying to change a client's mind. Some people talked about trying to change consumer behavior. Leaders talk about transforming organizations. Nonprofits talked about changing industries.

Starting point is 00:04:42 Startups talked about changing the world. But when it came down to what they had tried, for over 98% of the responses I got back, it was some version of pushing. And what do I mean by pushing? Well, let me add more facts, more figures, more reasons, more information. If I just tell you why this is a good idea, if I could just explain to you, give you more information, you would come around.

Starting point is 00:05:06 Let me make one more phone call, one more pitch, send one more email if I'm a salesperson, for example. You know, if I just push people a little harder, they'll go. And it's clear why we think that, right? You mentioned a marble, but we can even more simply think about a chair. If you're in a room and there's a chair,

Starting point is 00:05:22 pushing is a great way to get that chair to go. Put a pressure on one side and the chair slides across the floor. But when we apply that, same intuition to people, it gets a little bit stickier, right? Because when we push people, they don't just slide across the floor, right? Often they dig in their heels. They push back. They think about all the reasons why they don't want to do what we suggested. And so rather than pushing, we really need to take a different approach. Yeah. And as I was reading your book, I couldn't help but think I have a marketing agency. And so we're very successful. I have 70 people around the world

Starting point is 00:05:53 who work for me. But, you know, I don't land every deal, right, that I talked to. And when I was thinking back about some of the bigger deals that I've lost, it was me, like, overly trying to convince them with, like, use cases and references and this and that. And so it's just so funny to think about, like, the times where I didn't necessarily do that, how I won the deal, and how it really turns people off when you just overly trying to convince them. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's a neat analogy we made to chemistry here. And I don't know if you were going to talk about that soon, but if it's okay, I'll talk about it now for a second. But, If you look at chemical change, it's really hard.

Starting point is 00:06:31 So you think about a diamond, for example. It didn't start out a diamond. It started being carbon that was like squeezed together through eons of time and temperature and pressure. You know, gasoline was once plant matter and, you know, animal, this and that, and it took a long time to get there. And so if you look in the lab, what chemists often do is they add temperature and pressure to create change. They heat things up. They squeeze it together to create change. But there's a special set of substances that chemists use to make change happen faster and easier.

Starting point is 00:06:56 They don't require more temperature and more pressure. They do everything from cleaning the grime on our contact lenses to clean the grime on our car's engine. And multiple Nobel prizes have been won for innovations in the space. And very simply, these substances are called catalysts. And when we think about catalysts in the social world, think, oh, that person was a change agent. That thing was a catalyst. But catalyst actually is a very specific meaning. What's so neat about them is they allow change to happen with less energy, not more.

Starting point is 00:07:24 Rather than pushing so much, they identify the barriers. or the obstacles to change, and they mitigate them. And that's really what I've thought a lot about over the past few years, and this approach is all about, not pushing harder, but identifying the obstacles or barriers and mitigating them. It's kind of almost like, you know, imagine you're, I don't know, you're in a car. So you get in it, you know, walk out of a game or, you know, picking your kids up at this or going to the office and your car's parked on a hill, you get in the car,

Starting point is 00:07:51 you stick your key to the ignition, you turn your key, and you step your foot on the gas. If the car doesn't go, we just think we need more gas. And the same thing happens with that potential client, that potential customer, that person that we're trying to sell something. We just think if we step on that gas a little more, they'll go. But here's the problem. If that parking brake is pulled up, we can step on the gas all we want, and the car or the person isn't going to go anywhere.

Starting point is 00:08:16 And so the key insight is how can we be better at finding those parking breaks? How can we be better at identifying the obstacles or the barriers that are getting in the way? and by mitigating them make change more likely. It's not about pushing harder. It's not more facts, more figures, more reasons, more pressure. It's about figure out what's getting in the way and moving those barriers. Yes. And I know that in your book, you say that asking a question like,

Starting point is 00:08:41 why hasn't that person changed already can really help us start on the right foot when it comes to persuading others. So what kind of questions can we ask ourselves or ask other people to kind of understand the barriers that are at play? Yeah, you know, you mentioned negotiators, and it reminded me, I talked to a couple of last negotiators in writing this book, and they told a great story where they basically said, look, new negotiators, novice negotiators, the first thing they do is they want to jump to influence. They want to start by saying, how can I get you, whoever you are, to do whatever it is that I want? And that often doesn't work, right?

Starting point is 00:09:15 It often backfires, as we'll talk about probably in a couple minutes, the more you push people, the more they push back, the more they just like that things we talked about before, they dig in their heels. What sees and negotiators do is they start with the person they're trying to change. They start with understanding. They start by understanding them and what those obstacles or barriers are. And only then do they move to influence. You can think about the same thing with a doctor, right? You don't go to the doctor and the doctor doesn't start by saying, let me put a cast on your leg. The doctor starts by saying, well, tell what the problem is. What's the issue? What are you looking for? What do you need? And they use that diagnostic to help figure out the solution. And

Starting point is 00:09:52 And so whether we're a salesperson, whether we're an entrepreneur, whatever it is, I think starting with the same ideas, find the root. What is that underlying thing that's driving what the person is doing or not doing? And use questions to figure out, collect that information, understand what they need before you try to change them. When I do a consulting project or pitching for a consulting project, I always start by saying, well, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to achieve here? What are you trying to get out of this?

Starting point is 00:10:19 You know, what are you looking for someone to offer? And then by understanding what they need, I can say, okay, great, well, you know, here's how I think given what you're looking for, I can fit best. Rather than jumping into a pitch that I have, you know, given a hundred thousand times that's great, but may not be the best fit for them, starting with them. It not only shows that you care, which I think is good, but it gives you more information to help you show them that you are the best solution for what they need. And I think that's a key insight, whether you're a hostage negotiator or a sales

Starting point is 00:10:49 person or otherwise, starting with them really helps you get to the best place for you as well. 100%. It reminds me of that quote. To be interesting, you've got to be interested. And questions in general are just so important. Questions make people feel like you're listening, makes people feel like you care about them and they feel good, they like you more. And we're going to learn more about questions and why they're impactful in this discussion later on. Okay, so in the Catalyst, you give readers five key barriers to change, reactants, endowment, distance, uncertainty, and corroborating evidence. Let's discuss a few of them because we don't have time to discuss them all. So in terms of reactants, why is it so important to let people make their own decisions?

Starting point is 00:11:33 Yeah. Is it all right if I tell a story here? Of course. Okay. So a few years ago, Tide, owned by Procter & Gamble, wanted to make doing laundry faster and easier. doing laundry is not that difficult, not impossible, but you never know exactly how much detergent to add. You know, sometimes you spill it on your hands or the counter, and it turns out it would be better if some detergent went in early in the cycle and other detergent went in late. And you can't do that with liquid or powder detergent. So they spent a bunch of money on R&D and they end up coming out with these thing called tidepods, basically set it and forget it. They're one of these little colorful things in the laundry, and it takes care of the problem.

Starting point is 00:12:09 They spent $100 million on marketing, and they hope it takes a big chunk of the over billion dollar laundry industry. They release them. They're doing okay, but then they hit a snack, which is that people are eating them. You chuckled, I'm sure many people in the audience sort of gulped a little bit. You might sit there going, well, what do you mean people are eating them, right? I mean, aren't they filled with chemicals? Yes, they are filled with chemicals.

Starting point is 00:12:32 And yes, people are eating them. There was a video online that showed them melted on top of a pizza. There was an image saying they looked good enough. to eat, and suddenly, mostly young people were challenging one another to eat tied pots. It's called the Tide Pod Challenge, as many of you may remember. Imagine you're a Tide Executive in this situation. You're sitting there going, I mean, what are we supposed to do here? How did this happen? People should know not to eat these things, but just in case we'll do

Starting point is 00:12:57 what companies often do when they don't know what to do, which is we will put out oppressorries, telling people don't eat Tidepods, right? And in case that's not enough, we'll do what a company's also do when they don't know to do, which is hire a celebrity. Rob Grunk, Grownkowski, to put big public service announcement saying, don't eat Tidepods, right? They told people not to do it. Gronk told people not to do it. They thought that would be enough. So if you look at the data, you see something interesting. So sort of, it's, you know, a little bit of attention, a little bit of attention. Tide releases their announcement. Now, the hope is that it will stem interest in the Tide Pod challenge,

Starting point is 00:13:31 that it will go down, people won't be interested anymore. But it turns out the exact opposite happens. There's a 400% increase in searches for the TidePod Challenge, and it's not just parents wondering what their kids are up to, visits a Poison Control shootup as well. In the next two weeks, more people come into Poison Control than had in the two years prior. And basically, a warning became a recommendation. Telling people not to do something made them more likely to do it. Now, you could look at this example and say, that's nuts, you know, kids are crazy, what's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's actually just one example of a much broader phenomenon. And that is reactants. At the core, when pushed, people push back. Whether we're pushing people

Starting point is 00:14:09 to do something or they're pushing them not to do something, right? They have an in-brain motive to push back against us. And so I'm happy to talk more about why that is, but I think that's a really great example of this underlying idea. At Yap, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers. And I'm really picky when it comes to my employees. My team is growing every day. We're 60 people all over the world. And when it comes to hiring, I no longer feel overwhelmed by finding that perfect candidate, even though I'm so picky, because when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post noticed. Indeed, sponsor jobs

Starting point is 00:14:49 help you stand out and hire fast by boosting your posts to the top relevant candidates. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored ones according to Indeed data worldwide. I'm so glad I found Indeed when I did because hiring is so much easier now. In fact, in the minute we've been talking, 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Plus, there's no subscriptions or long-term contracts. You literally just pay for your results. You pay for the people that you hire. There's no need to wait any longer.

Starting point is 00:15:17 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com. Just go to Indeed.com slash profiting right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash profiting. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, indeed, is all you need. Hello, young improfitors. Running my own business has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done, but I won't lie to you. In those early days of setting it up, I feel like I was jumping on a cliff with no parachute. I'm not really good at that kind of stuff. I'm really good at

Starting point is 00:15:53 marketing, sales, growing a business, offers, but I had so many questions and zero idea where to find the answers when it came to starting an official business. I wish I had known about Northwest Registered Agent back when I was starting YAP Media. And if you're an entrepreneur, you need to know what Northwest Registered Agent is. They've been helping small business owners launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They literally make life easy for entrepreneurs. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements

Starting point is 00:16:23 and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And guys, it can get really complicated. But Northwest Registered Agent just makes it all. easy and breaks it down for you. So when you want more for your business, more privacy, more guidance, more free resources, Northwest Registered Agent is where you should go. Don't wait and protect your privacy, build your brand, and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes.

Starting point is 00:16:50 Visit Northwestregisteredagent.com slash Yapfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwestregisteredagent.com slash yapfree. people just want to engage in that forbidden behavior, right? So I'd love to understand why that is. Like, why do people push back and do things even when they must know that it's not good for them? Yeah. I mean, I think the Tide example is certainly a strange one. But this happens all the time, right? It's not just if something's dangerous we push back. Even when someone tries to get us to do something, we become less likely to do it. And the reason why essentially is we like being in the driver's seat. It's all about freedom and autonomy. Why do I, why did I make this choice? Why did I buy this

Starting point is 00:17:35 product? Why did I use this service? Why did I work with the supplier? Why did I agree to do whatever it might be? I did it because I want it to. I'm in the driver's seat. I'm making my choices. But as soon as we, whether we are an entrepreneur, whether we are a colleague, whether we are a marketer, whether we are a salesperson, whoever we are or a boss, however, whoever we are, as soon as we come and we say, hey, you should do this, now it's no longer clear who's in the driver seat, right? Are they in the driver's seat or are we in the driver's seat? And the more it feels like we're in the driver's seat, the less interested they are in doing what we want. Essentially, people have an ingrained anti-persuasion radar. Right? So you can think about it like a missile

Starting point is 00:18:13 defense system or something that's sort of scanning the environment for incoming projectiles. When they detect one, they engage in a set of defensive actions. So think about what happens when you're watching TV and then ad comes on. You change a channel or you leave the room. Think what happens when you get a piece of direct mail that's, you know, someone you're not expecting, you throw it away. Think what happens when you get a pitch over email or a phone call from a telemarketer. You hang up the phone, you delete the email. And all these cases, we avoid or ignore the message. We engage in a set of defensive actions to avoid being persuaded.

Starting point is 00:18:45 But it's not just those. Even worse is counter-arguing. And some of you're probably doing this right now, right? Yes, someone's listening to us. We're pitching, we're talking, we're suggesting something. They're listening. but they're not just listening. They're thinking about all the reasons

Starting point is 00:19:01 why what we're suggesting is wrong. Why it's too expensive, why it won't work, why it won't integrate with what they're doing already, whatever it might be, poking and prodding the argument till it comes crumbling down. And so I think the key insight is we can't push people. We have to allow for autonomy.

Starting point is 00:19:17 We have to give them back some sense of freedom and control and put them back in the driver's seat. Awesome. And we're going to talk about strategies and tactics to put them back in the driver's seat. But before we do, when you were talking about getting people, like, not only does this happen when we're saying don't do something. So the government says, you know, don't drink and drive.

Starting point is 00:19:35 Don't smoke cigarettes. That doesn't work. But it also, the same thing goes if we say eat less fat or take your vaccine for COVID-19. And so as I was reading a book, I think you wrote it before COVID because you didn't have any of that in there. And I'm sure you would have if you had written in the COVID world. but you must have seen the CDC and how they approached getting people to take their vaccines. And I would love to hear your thoughts about what they could have done better or what they did good or what they did bad.

Starting point is 00:20:05 I think it's so interesting. Yeah. So I had the bad fortune to release this book basically two days before COVID hit. And so I launched against a much more formidable opponent than I predicted. And so everything shut down from bookstores to, you know, no one was interested in buying books. at the moment, everyone was interested in figuring out what was going on with COVID. And so in some sense, it was a terrible time to release a book. But it was also an amazing time to release a book on change. And that so much of what I had talked about played out in the world. And so I wrote a piece

Starting point is 00:20:39 for HBR about a month into the pandemic initially about how some of these strategies could be applied. And it's amazing when we talk about these things. I mean, this is exactly part of the problem, right? What did the government say? What did the CDC say? They said, first off, you know, Don't go to stores. Don't shop anywhere. You know, get a vaccine. Wear a mask. Don't do this.

Starting point is 00:21:00 Do that. Basically, if you want someone to do someone, tell them to do it. If you don't want them to do something, tell them not to do it. And the challenge with this, right, is even if everyone would have done it originally, hey, nobody wants to be unsafe. Nobody's interested in getting sick or hurting themselves. But the more they feel like somebody else is telling them what to do, particularly the government for some people, the less interested they become in doing it, right?

Starting point is 00:21:23 they would have been fine if they came to that decision themselves, but because they feel like someone else is telling them what to do, they're less likely to do it. And so, you know, we'll talk about some of these strategies, but I wrote a lot in the piece about how we could use these stream strategies to deal with COVID, not telling people do this or don't do that, but encouraging them to come to that conclusion themselves, in some sense, guiding them down a journey to encourage them to move in a direction, but not forcing them in that direction. The more they feel force, the more they feel cornered, the less interested they are in doing what we want. It's super interesting. And feel free to use that as an example as we go through and talk about some of

Starting point is 00:22:01 these strategies. So let's talk about one of the strategies that you talk about in terms of counteracting reactants. And that's to let people choose their own path, give them a menu of options, so to speak. So how does that help? Yeah. So let's go back to a simple example we talked about already. You're pitching something. You're pitching something to a potential client or a potential user, whatever they might be. What do we tend to do? We tend to pitch them one option. This is what I think you should do. This is why I am the best choice for you. This is why this product or service is the best choice for you. This is what I think you should do. And we've all been in that meeting, right? Everyone's sitting there, shaking their head. Really, if we opened up their head, if we could do that,

Starting point is 00:22:40 what would be going on inside is counter-arguing. This is why it's not going to work. This is why someone else might be better. This is why I should do something else, sort of poking and prodding that argument. And so what great catalysts, what great change agents do is they don't just give people one option, they give them multiple. They say, hey, I think you should do X or Y, which one do you think is better? And notice what that does, right? It's subtly, but importantly, shifts the role of the listener. Rather than sitting there and think about all the reasons they don't like what we suggested, we've given them a new job. And that new job is to say, well, which of these do I like better? And because they're focused on which one they like better, they're much more like you to pick one at the end of a meeting.

Starting point is 00:23:22 And so I call this providing a menu really simply because this is what happens when we go out to dinner. When you go out to dinner at a restaurant, they don't say, here's dinner. They say, what would you like for dinner? But notice what they also don't say. They also don't say, what would you like, period, for dinner. They say, here's a limited set of options. Choose from within that choice set. Right.

Starting point is 00:23:40 And so in that sense, it's guided choice. You're not giving people no options, but you're not giving people unlimited options. giving them a limited set, encouraging them to focus on those options, and be more likely to pick one. Now, could they pick something off menu? They certainly could. But if the options are good enough, they're going to spend their time and energy focus on what's there rather than what is it, and be more likely to choose from them. And so it's not about giving them fake options. And it's not about giving them, you know, 500 options, which would be overwhelming and won't work either. But it's about giving them two, three, you know, four, maybe five tops options that are real options

Starting point is 00:24:12 that encourage them to focus on what's on the table rather than what isn't, and encourage them to choose from the set. You wanted them to choose from in the first place. Yeah, I think that's such an unbelievable strategy. And so basically what you're saying is if you give somebody one choice, they're going to just try to poke holes in it. They're going to try to just figure out what's wrong with it, why it's not for them, and they're going to just focus on that.

Starting point is 00:24:33 But if you give them multiple choices, they're going to be comparing the choices rather than poking holes and everything. Yeah, you know, I find this happens to me, and maybe it happens to you as well, when we shop online also. So when you go to a store that only has a couple of options, or you know you're buying something in a category you know comes from multiple retailers,

Starting point is 00:24:51 when you look at one place, you tend to want to go to check somewhere else, right? Maybe they'll have a lower price. Maybe they'll have better options, better colors, better selection. If I'm just looking at one place, maybe I should look elsewhere. But if you go on Amazon, often they'll have two, three, 15, 25 different options in the category.

Starting point is 00:25:08 I was just looking at bird seed for where we ran out of bird seed, so I need more bird seed, right? There were so many options on Amazon. So many didn't even think about going anywhere else, right? Because I'm assuming, well, there's enough good things here. I don't need to look elsewhere. And I can focus within the options that are here. And I'm not saying be like Amazon and give people hundreds of options, but the notion is the same. If people, if you're giving people enough that they feel like that set is reasonable and they can focus there, they don't need to look anywhere else. Yeah, totally makes sense. So let's move on to another strategy you have in the book called Ask Don't Tell. And basically you're saying to ask questions rather than making statements. So how can

Starting point is 00:25:46 we use this to counteract reactants? Yeah. So, you know, when we make statements, as we've talked about already, people push back. Right. If I'm the CDC and I'm saying, you need to get vaccinated because it's dangerous if you're not. People go, oh, well, yeah, my cousin though, I mean, he or she's not vaccinated and they're fine, right? If we're pitching something, we say, oh, you know, this is why we're better. Someone focuses on why it's not. But questions allow. us to get around that, right? Rather than trying to persuade people, it allows us to get them to persuade themselves. I was talking to a startup founder a few years ago, and she was having trouble motivating her team. She had a big team of engineers and other folks, and there was a big

Starting point is 00:26:24 deadline coming up, and they need to work harder and put an extra hours, and people didn't just, they didn't want to do it, right? They didn't want to work weekends. They didn't want to work nights. And so she's pushing and pushing, people weren't changing. So finally she calls a meeting, and she starts with a rhetorical question, not a real one, but a rhetorical one. She says, hey, what kind of company do we want to be? A good company or a great company? Now, we know everyone answers that question. It says, ah, great company. But then she asks a real question. She says, how do we get there? How can we become a great company? And she starts a conversation, right? And questions, as we've talked a little bit about already, do a couple things, right? First, they deactivate

Starting point is 00:26:59 that anti-persuasion reader. Rather than thinking about why they hate what the boss is suggesting and pushing back against that statement, they've got a different job, right? Coming up with their opinion about how the company could become better, which people are more than happy to do. There are very few things. People like more than sharing their opinion. And so you've gotten them engaged, which is good. They're leaning in rather than leaning back. But second, it allows her to collect information. And this goes back, I think, to one of the first questions you asked me in interview. You know, how do we collect that information? Questions are a great way to get there. We may have a sense of what someone wants. We may have a sense of what we think is good for the organization.

Starting point is 00:27:35 but by asking them, we get much better information that can help us do something better. I work with a lot of clients when I say, hey, why didn't someone change? Why didn't something work? And they don't know. Questions allow us to get to those answers that help us target our appeals and be more effective. But the third thing that questions do, we talked a little bit about already, is they encourage commitment to the conclusion. Because now if someone says, oh, well, I think the best way for us to become a great company is to do this,

Starting point is 00:28:05 and you say, great, we're going to do that, it's a lot harder for them to say, I don't want to, because they suggest it in the first place. Same in sales, right? If you say, great, what are you looking for? And they say, I'm looking for X. And then you say, great, well, you know, we have X. We are X. We do X.

Starting point is 00:28:21 It's a lot harder for them to say, well, I don't want this, because they told you what they wanted, right? And you told them how you achieve that. And so I was talking to someone who said, it's so funny, my boss loves feeling like, you know, whatever I come up with is his idea. And I said, the only funny part is not just your boss. Everyone likes feeling like something is their idea, right? The more you can give away

Starting point is 00:28:40 ownership, the more you can let people participate in both the choice of the outcome and the journey, the more ownership they have, the more bought and they are. And the more now it's not your solution. It's theirs and they want to see it succeed. Yeah. Based on what you said, it just sounds like people are more bought in when you're asking questions and you can get them to the same outcome and end point, but they're getting it on their own. And you're kind of just, feeding them the thought process to get there. Yeah. And I think this is, I mean, it's interesting in a couple ways, right? So some of us say, well, oh, man, I want to get to the best thing for me. Why is caring about my customer or client or colleague or whatever it is? That's not going to help

Starting point is 00:29:21 me get there, right? And I think that's not only narrow-minded, but also wrong, right? The more you understand what other people want, the more you can help them get what they want and help yourself along the way, right? And so it's not the better off you make them, the worse you make yourself, very much the opposite. The better off you make them, the more they're going to like you, the more they're going to choose you, and the more you're going to win as well. And so whether it's sales or convincing clients or otherwise, I think understanding that person that you're interacting with is really powerful. Hey, young improfitors. As an entrepreneur, I know firsthand that getting a huge expense off your books

Starting point is 00:30:01 is the best possible feeling. It gives you a piece of mind and it lets you focus on the big picture and invest in other things that move your business forward. Now imagine if you got free business internet for life, you never had to pay for business internet again. How good would that feel? Well, now you don't even have to imagine because spectrum business is doing exactly that. They get it that if you aren't connected, you can't make transactions, you can't move your business forward. They support all types of businesses from restaurants to dry cleaners to content creators like me and everybody in between. They offer things like internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone TV, and mobile services. Now, for my business-owning

Starting point is 00:30:37 friends out there, I want you to listen up. If you want reliable internet connection with no contracts and no added fees, Spectrum is now offering free business internet advantage forever when you simply add four or more mobile lines. This isn't just a deal. It's a smart way to cut your monthly overhead and stay connected. Yeah, bam, you should definitely take advantage of this offer. It's free business internet forever. Visit Spectrum.com slash free for life. to learn how you can get business internet free forever. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

Starting point is 00:31:11 Happy New Year, Yap, gang. I just love the unique energy of the new year. It's all about fresh starts. And fresh starts not only feel possible, but also feel encouraged. And if you've been thinking about starting a business, this is your sign. There's no better time than right now.

Starting point is 00:31:26 2026 can be the year that you build something that is truly yours, the year where you take control over your career. and it starts with Shopify. I've built plenty of my own businesses on Shopify, including my LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass. So it's a two-day workshop. People buy their tickets on Shopify.

Starting point is 00:31:42 And then my mastermind subscription is also on Shopify. I built my site quickly in just a couple of days, payments were set up super easily, and none of the technical stuff slowed me down like it usually does because Shopify is just so intuitive. And this choice of using Shopify helped me scale my masterclass to over $500,000 in revenue in our first year. And I'm launching some new podcast courses

Starting point is 00:32:05 and can't wait to launch them on Shopify. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person, just like the millions of entrepreneurs that they power. You can build your dream story using hundreds of beautiful templates and set up as fast with built-in AI tools that help you write product descriptions and edit photos. Plus, marketing is built in

Starting point is 00:32:23 so you can create email and social campaigns easily. And as you grow, Shopify can scale right along with your business. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash profiting. Go to Shopify.com slash profiting. That's Shopify.com profiting. Yap, fam, hear your first.

Starting point is 00:32:47 This new year with Shopify by your side. What's up, Yap, gang? If you're a serious entrepreneur like me, you know your website is one of the first touchpoints every single cold customer has with your brand. Think about that for a second. When people are searching on Google, everybody who interacts with your brand first is seeing your dot-com initially.

Starting point is 00:33:09 But here's a problem. Too many companies treat their website like a formality instead of the gross tool that it should be. At YAPMedia, we are guilty of this. I am really due for an upgrade from my website and I'm planning on doing that with Framer this year because small changes can take days with my other platform and simple updates require tickets.

Starting point is 00:33:26 And suddenly we're just leaving so much opportunity on the table. And that's why so many teams including mine, are turning to Framer. It's built for teams who refuse to let their website slow them down. Your designers and marketers get full ownership with real-time collaboration, everything you need for SEO and analytics with integrated A-B testing. I love that. I love testing and making sure that we've got the best performing assets on the page.

Starting point is 00:33:50 You make a change, hit publish, and it's live in seconds. Whether you're launching a new site testing landing pages or migrating your full.com, Framer makes going from idea to live site fast and simple. Learn how you can get more out of your dot com from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com slash profiting for 30% off a Framer pro annual plan. That's 30% off. Framer.com slash profiting for 30% off Framer.com slash profiting. Rules and restrictions apply.

Starting point is 00:34:22 So in your book, you give some more tactics in terms of self persuasion. So let's talk about highlighting a gap. And can you help us understand why internal consistency is a big factor when it comes to driving human behavior? Yeah. So there's a great example of this. I'll sort of unpack the example and then we can talk about it more generally. So there's an organization in Thailand called the Thai Health Promotion Foundation. And they're trying to get people to quit smoking.

Starting point is 00:34:47 And the only problem is no one wants to quit smoking. And so they're trying to figure out, what can we do to get people to quit? And so they end up coming up with this campaign where they have people, people walk up to smokers on the street and they ask smokers for a light. Well, that's something if you're a smoker happens all the time. Someone asks you for a light. Smokers often say yes, usually say yes. But this time the smokers say no. And the reason the smokers say no reason the smokers say no reason the smoker say no way. Is that the person who asked them is a kid. Someone who looks eight to ten years old, a little boy with a monkey shirt, a little girl

Starting point is 00:35:16 with pigtails. They say, can I have a light? And the smoker say, no way. I'm not going to give you a light. You're a little kid. Don't you want to go run and play? Smoking will make you look older, it'll give you lung cancer, emphysema, smoking has pesticides in it, cigarettes have pesticides, all these horrible things. No, I'm not going to give you a cigarette. They basically give the young people a lecture about why smoking is bad. And the young person shakes their head yes and goes, okay. And then they say, but then why are you smoking? And they hand them a little card that says, hey, you worry about me, but not yourself. If you're interested in quitting, here's a number to call to help you out.

Starting point is 00:35:49 Now, this campaign is hugely successful. 40% increase in calls to the quit line. videos the campaign go viral on the web, get millions of views. But I think what is the coolest about this campaign, the most interesting thing is why it works. What makes it so effective? And so the Health Promotion Foundation had a key insight. And that key insight was, look, we can't push people. We're going to push people like we've been talking about,

Starting point is 00:36:12 they're going to push back. We have to figure out another way to get them to change. And I think that has broader implications. Often as change agents, we think information is the issue. You haven't changed because you don't have the right information. If I give you that information, you'll change. That's very self-focused and egocentric. It's not thinking about the person who wants to change.

Starting point is 00:36:29 Often they have all the information. Smokers know all the dangers of smoking. It's not like they don't know, yet they're still doing it. And so telling them to quit because it's not healthy for them isn't going to work. And so they said, well, how can we get those smokers, as you nicely said, to convince themselves? And so what they did is something called highlighting a gap. People want their attitudes and their actions to line up. If I say I care about the environment, I better.

Starting point is 00:36:53 cycle. If I say I care about a certain sports team, I better watch their games. If I say I care about, you know, kids not smoking, I better not smoke. We want our attitudes and our actions to line up. And if they don't, a negative emotional reaction occurs called cognitive dissonance. And so people do work to reduce that dissonance. They change their attitudes or they change their actions. In this case, they had two options. Hey, I can quit smoking, which might be a good idea. Or I can tell these kids smoking is okay, which I'm not going to do. So, well, I better quit smoking, which is what 40% of them did. And so what this campaign did is highlighted gap often, attitudes and actions aren't next to one another. A prospective client may say that they care about

Starting point is 00:37:33 a certain thing one day and hear your pitch another day and they're not connecting those two things. And so why it's called highlighting gap is let's bring them together. Let's show where, hey, you know, you say you care about this thing. Okay, great. Let me remind you of this thing when encouraging you to take an action so that I'm not telling you, hey, take this action. I'm saying, well, didn't you care about this thing? Cool. Maybe you want to change your behavior. Encouraging them to go, huh, I seem to care about this, but I'm not behaving in a way like I care about it. Maybe I should do something about it, which is exactly what people do. It goes back to questions and ask questions, not statements. It sort of relates to that as well. It certainly can. Yeah. And I think, you know,

Starting point is 00:38:15 it's not just about asking questions, about asking the right questions. And we can use questions to do it. We can use other ways to do it, but bringing those things to the four, certainly. Okay, so let's talk about endowment. So I thought this one was really interesting, too. It basically says that when something is ours, we actually value it more. So what else can you tell us about the endowment effect? Yeah, I think the big challenge here, and I'm happy to cover a couple more things, but I think the big challenge here is people think old things are safe and new ones are

Starting point is 00:38:44 risky, right? So if I have an existing supplier, if I'm buying a certain product already, using a certain service, I feel like that thing is safe, and whatever the new thing is is risky. Why? Because I haven't used it yet. And so I tend to stick with the old things. That's the endowment effect. We're attached to the old. And I tend to think new things are risky and unsafe. But we often don't realize that old things aren't as costless as we might think. We think, oh, the old way is easier. And it is easier. But we may not realize how challenging it is. A couple years ago, I was talking a cousin of mine. Every time he wrote an email would sign at the bottom, you know,

Starting point is 00:39:19 best Charles every time he wrote that email. And I was sort of going home, you know, why don't you use an email signature, right? Wouldn't that save you time? He's going to, no, because it only takes me a couple seconds to write best Charles. It would take me minutes to figure out an email signature and how to do it. And so it's not worth the time. And so I sort of pushed him and pushed him and he wouldn't do it. And finally I said, interesting, how many emails do you write a day? He said, I don't know, 30, 40, 50, whatever it is, how many to write a week? He said, I don't know, 200, 300 emails. How much time do you spend every week? writing your email signature.

Starting point is 00:39:51 And he thought about it. And then he goes online and figures out how to automate his email signature. Because at each moment, it's always cheaper to do the old thing than the new thing. The new thing is always going to be more costly at the beginning. But over time, it actually ends up being better. And so the challenge is how can we highlight the cost of an action? How can we make people realize that doing the old thing that's sticking with what they're doing already isn't as costless as it might seem?

Starting point is 00:40:16 Okay. as we're wrapping up the interview here, we're running out of time. I did want to ask a more general question. So earlier we were talking about giving too much information, like giving that extra deck, trying to convince people, giving them facts, thinking that we're going to push them to get to a conclusion. But there has to be some way for information to be relevant to getting people to make a decision. So what's the wrong way and the right way to use information to try to persuade people. I'm not saying to ignore information. I'm not saying that information is never part of the solution, but there's a difference between someone asking for information and us forcing it on them.

Starting point is 00:40:53 We talked about before, you know, the cases where people are leaning in versus pushing back, the cases where people are drawn in and want more from you rather sort of shying away and trying to get away from you. I think information is great at the right time in the journey, right? I like thinking about customer journeys, even if they're not a quote unquote customer. You know, what is that path to purchase or action, whoever that customer might be? And there's certainly a place for information, right? Particularly if I'm going to buy something complicated or do something different, I'm going to need some information. Maybe I have that information. Maybe I don't. But starting with someone pushing that information down my throat is going to lead me to do the

Starting point is 00:41:29 exact opposite. It's going to lead me to run away. And so it's more about rather than selling people starting with a conversation, finding out what they need, finding out how you can help them, finding out what they care about and then helping them get to where they need to be, in some cases showing them that the best way for them to get what they want is by doing what you wanted them to do in the first place. And that's where you can bring you that information. You know, you're talking to a customer, hey, what are you looking for? We care about XYZ. Awesome. Do you know how we provide that? You know what we do on those dimensions. Do you know how I could help you there? They say, yes, awesome. If they say, no, I'd like to learn more,

Starting point is 00:42:01 it's a great opportunity to tell them more. But get them asking you for it rather than sort of stuff it into them. Okay, so one of the last questions I want to ask you on this topic is about uncertainty tax. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, sure. And I think a good way to describe this is actually a story in my own life a couple of years ago. So I was getting on a plane to go somewhere, to speak in an event or something. And I got a note that every traveler dread saying, you know, your flight is delayed. And I didn't want to be delayed at all. Obviously, I was worried about missing this event or worrying about getting together with the client, whatever it was. And so I was worried about it, worried about it, worried about it. And if we think about the worst

Starting point is 00:42:39 outcome that could happen there, the worst outcome has happened is that I miss my meeting, right? That's a bad outcome. That's the worst that can happen. But it actually is funny when they eventually canceled the flight, and so I couldn't make my meeting. In some sense, I was better than I was before. Because now that I knew that the meeting was canceled, I could set up another meeting or I could agree to do something on Zoom or I could figure out a way to solve it. And so when it turns out we hate is not the worst outcome sometimes. We hate the uncertainty. What's even worse than the worst outcome in a situation is not knowing what that outcome is. There was a great study that was done where they asked some people, how much would you pay for a $100 gift card? And that's

Starting point is 00:43:15 another set of people, how much would you pay for a $50 gift card to Amazon or whatever it is? So one set of people gave their number, another set of people gave their number. And they said to a third group of people, hey, how much would you pay for a gift card? You're not going to know whether it's $100 or $50, but it's going to be one or the other. How much would you pay for that card? Now, you would expect that third set of people, the lowest they would have been willing to pay was for the $50 gift card

Starting point is 00:43:38 because worst case, that's what they're going to get. But what the researchers found is that the valuation was even lower than the $50 gift card because people don't just dislike uncertainty. They devalue uncertainty. Anytime there's uncertainty, we decide to do nothing. We don't want to take action.

Starting point is 00:43:53 Essentially, we hit the pause button, which is great for the status quo, which is great for whatever people are doing previously, but is terrible for moving forward. And so I talk about in the book a lot of ways to alleviate uncertainty, remove that uncertainty, because that's key. A lot of times what's stopping people is not just information. It's the uncertainty that is this going to be good or not?

Starting point is 00:44:13 And if I don't know if it's going to be good, I might as well stick with what I'm doing already. Yeah. And that's why since we were talking about sales, like pilot programs or trialing or even money back guarantees, they all work because they kind of reduce the uncertainty. Yeah, you know, I talk about freemium or a test drive. or free samples, all these things.

Starting point is 00:44:31 And we think Framium is sort of this new business model that's completely different. But at the core, what Framium really does, it allows people to experience the value of what we're offering. And here's the challenge. Whatever you're telling people to do, they've got an old thing they're doing already. You're saying the new thing is better,

Starting point is 00:44:46 but how do they know it's better? And as we've talked about, there's all this cost up front to switch to something new. And so what we're trying to do is lower that barrier to trial, make it easier for them to experience the value of what you're offering so that they say, hey, it's pretty good. now it's worth paying some, whether time, effort, or money to learn a bit more. Awesome. So everybody, this book is absolutely amazing. Like I wish we had enough time to cover

Starting point is 00:45:09 all five barriers because it's so interesting. Jonah, thank you so much for joining us. One of the last questions that we ask our guests on the show is what is one actionable thing that our young improfitors can do today to be more profiting tomorrow? I would say identify the roadblocks. Whatever it is that you're trying to do, whether you're of Vince a customer or a client, whether you're trying to convince a boss or a colleague, whether you're trying to start a new business, whatever you're trying to do. What are the roadblocks that are getting in the way of that person, people, or organizations you're trying to change? The more we understand about them, the more we understand about the things that are preventing

Starting point is 00:45:44 them from changing, the more effective catalysts we can be. Awesome. And what is your secret to profiting in life? I think always be curious. We're born, we're however born, we can't become smarter than we are necessarily, but we can always be curious. And I think it's a great skill. You know, wherever we are, whatever we're dealing with, I think the more we approach life with wonder and ask questions, the more successful will be. I love that. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? Sure, yeah, jonaburger.com, just j-o-n-a-h, B-E-R-G-E-R-com. It's a bunch of free resources there. So guides for changing a customer, our client's mind, changing a boss's mind, videos, one-pagers, all.

Starting point is 00:46:27 all sorts of stuff to help you in your journey to apply these ideas. Awesome. I love this conversation. Thank you so much. No problem. Thanks for having me.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jonah Berger on How to Change Anyone's Mind | Human Behavior

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.