Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Mark Bowden: Make a Powerful First Impression | E142

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

Want to learn how to influence people and learn their values just by their language? In this episode, we talk with Mark Bowden! Mark is a best-selling author, Founder, and Human Behavior/Body Language expert! He is credited with pioneering nonverbal analysis of human behavior where it pertains to influence and/or persuasion. His techniques have been used by G7 leaders, including Canadian Prime Minister and Stephen Harper. He is the Founder and President of TRUTHPLANE, a communication training company that offers a unique methodology for anyone who has to communicate with impact to an audience. His bestselling books on body language and human behavior are: Winning Body Language; Winning Body Language for Sales Professionals; Tame the Primitive Brain; and Truth & Lies, What People are Really Thinking. Mark is a regular instructor for Canada’s #1-ranked EMBA program at Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and he is President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada.  Mark uses his unique system of cutting-edge and effective nonverbal communication techniques to instantly help audiences become more confident, collaborative, and credible in their communication. His highly acclaimed TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic”, and YouTube Channel have reached millions of people, and he has presented to many of the most prestigious organizations in the world, including Microsoft, Toyota, VW, Samsung, Johnson & Johnson, KPMG, GSK, Walmart and Nestle.  In today’s episode, we cover Mark’s childhood, how he learned to live with his dyslexia, and how it brought him to his passion for human behavior. We’ll also learn the difference between influence and persuasion, how to learn other people’s values from small talk, and making a powerful first impression. If you want to learn how to read behaviors from others fast, keep listening! Sponsored by - Kraken - Visit kraken.com/yap now to learn more or search for "Kraken" in the app store Eight Sleep - Go to eightsleep.com/yap to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $250 at checkout Jordan Harbinger - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations Social Media: Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Timestamps: 00:52- Mark’s Childhood and Living with Dyslexia  9:22- The Animal and Reptile Brain 12:37- How Influence and Persuasion Are Different 16:27- Understanding Other People’s Values  28:30- How to Influence People Using Their Values 30:21- Difference Between Traits, States, and Moods 39:39- Making a Powerful First Impression 46:52- How to Take Up Space 50:45- Mark’s Best Advice for Dating Phases 1:01:57- The Need to Be Inauthentic 1:08:36- What Makes a Great Story 1:12:45- Mark’s Secret to Profiting in Life Mentioned in the episode: Mark’s Website: https://truthplane.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions.

If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhanced and productivity, had again influenced the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young and Profiting Podcast. This week on YAP, we're chatting with Mark Bowden. Mark is the best-selling author, founder, and a world-leading human behavior and body language expert.

He is credited with pioneering non-verbal analysis and human behavior where it pertains to influence and persuasion. His techniques have been used by high caliber leaders like the Canadian Prime Minister, and he is the founder and president of Truth Plane, a communication training company. Mark uses his unique system of cutting edge and effective nonverbal communication techniques to help people become more confident, collaborative, and credible in their communication. In today's episode, Mark and I will talk about his childhood and how his dyslexia brought him to his passion

for human behavior. We'll learn the difference between influence and persuasion, how to understand other people's values from small talk, and we'll gain an understanding for what it's like to make a powerful first impression. If you want to learn how to better connect with others and communicate more effectively, you'll be fascinated by this conversation. Hi Mark, welcome to Young Improfiting Podcast.

I look great to be here thanks for having me. I am super excited for this conversation. We've had many conversations on Clubhouse, but this is the first time we have a video one-on-one, and I just get to speak with you one-on-one. I'm super excited because you are known to be the pioneer of human behavior and body language related to influence and persuasion. So you are the guy that we have today.

It's my favorite topic in the world, human behavior. So can't wait to dig into all of it. But first, we like to dig into all of it. But first, we like to start off with childhoods. So I read and heard that you had dyslexia when you're younger, and it really troubled you. You know, you are pretty behind in terms of your level of reading and writing, growing up. And I want to know how that impacted your confidence, how that impacted your self-esteem, and even how that shaped you later on as an adult with your career choices and things like that.

Yeah, lovely. So yes, I'm dyslexic and I've had it from being a little kid but was not diagnosed in any way back then. So things could be a little bit tricky as I'm sure others who are dyslexic may have appreciated themselves. Now, I did pretty well because I

could find ways of getting around stuff and through stuff and under stuff and through the system and others don't have that. It's not really luck. I mean, they just don't get to where I've got to through whatever methods. But anyway, you know, yes, reading and writing was pretty hard for me. At the same time as, you know, we were streamed in school into kind of sets of ability. And there would be areas like visual art where I was super, super able and spoken language, where I was very, very able. And then reading and writing and mathematics, the very lowest of the low, simply because I couldn't get the letters in the right order or the numbers in the right order.

It's not that I didn't understand words, I understood them incredibly well or numbers, I understood them incredibly well. Just what happens in my head doesn't end up down on a piece of paper. So it was, it was tricky. And it meant that at school, in some subjects, I hung out with all kinds of, all kinds of people and all kinds of levels of ability. I saw the whole spectrum of ability because there I was at the top and at the very bottom at the same time. It's, it's super interesting how your greatest weakness can also be your greatest strength because I imagine because you couldn't do the reading and writing like you said your communication skills were off the charts. Probably your natural ability to read human body language and kind of be good in the real world not just on paper

was strength then is that correct? Yeah so I think look I don't think I had abilities any more than anybody else. I was really keyed into the visual world because I was good at that. And I was able to make connections that others clearly couldn't make. I could metaphorically and in reality draw lines between points that other people weren't able to draw the lines between. So that was really useful. Having said that, I'm always a bit wary of your failures being your greatest strength because they also are very painful. They're also can be heartbreaking and really hard to deal with. So my failures were my greatest failures and my strengths were my strengths and I guess therefore, you know, what we have to do is really always concentrate on the strengths there, I think.

But look, you know, the reason I think I partly got into loving human behaviour is that the world was not very understandable for me. You know, imagine a world where you are really good at some stuff and then you are the biggest failure at other stuff. So it was a bit of a mystery to me. So I did used to kind of go around the planet, try to work out, why is it like this? Why is it so bizarre that I can be in these two different points at the same time? What's going on here? So I think that's why I got into human

behavior and psychology and influence and persuasion. Yeah, that's super interesting. I also read or I can't remember if I read or heard it, but you are interested in marine biology, correct? And the study of animal behavior. So what was so interesting about that? Well, first of all, you know, we used to as a kid, we used to go on holiday a lot by the by the sea. I'm from the UK from England specifically, was born there, and as you know, we're in Ireland. So we're surrounded by sea. So it doesn't take you very long to travel before you get to the sea, and you start going, well, what's in the sea and what's over the sea and you know it's an island nation and so I was really

interested in in the sea and and just water moves in an incredible way and stuff within water moves in an incredible way. You know we spent some of our time in water as human beings and we're fascinated by water but we generally live on the land and so you know we've got this body that is really adapted very very well for kind of walking around and sitting around and doing stuff on land. And so, when you hit the water and you see marine life, I think our mind can often go, wow, how is that like that? I mean, we've got literally, we've got mammals in the water, you know, your dolphins, your whales, sea lions and stuff, which are descendant from ground-dwelling mammals.

So, you know, so this is, you know, in terms of evolution, the fish got out of the sea, they became mammals, you know, reptiles and then mammals, and then some of the mammals went agh, I can't like the sea. And they went back in again. And so you get these sea dogs, sea lions, sea cats. You get all of these things. It's like, it was what a weird adaption. So I was, you know, fascinated by how the movement of water instead of how we move on land or in air. And then in terms of your study is in your evolution to your career now, you got into the performing arts, correct?

And you also studied art and how moving art can influence our human behavior. So talk to us about that. How did that set the foundation for your career later on? Yes. So I got specifically very good at at imagery. And I think that that is you suggested early on that partly because of the dyslexia and and the adaption to what I could get really good at and where I could draw the lines between really, really well. And so, and I got into theatre and film and TV and especially like, how do you still tell stories with those moving pictures? And how do those affect us as as human beings? We're obviously very, very visual. These eyes are very expensive to have. And there's a big neo cortex that is very expensive to run

as well to do this visual part of our brain. So vision is super important to us as human beings. And so I got fascinated by how do these moving pictures affect our predictions about the world around us. Because our brain is not a knowledge machine, it's a best guest machine. And it starts to look for specific patterns and then do its best guesses to what that pattern might mean to us.

And so I started to think about, what if we could make these patterns on purpose for each other to influence and persuade, to deliver to an audience the world that they expect or they don't expect and to change their thoughts and feelings. And so, yeah, I started studying in film and TV and theatre and visual theatre, specifically movement theatre. And then in visual arts as well, and I've become, you know, over the time quite a collector of art, because I'm just still fascinated in that world of pattern and colour and imagery and signals and what they signify and how that affects us as human beings.

That is super interesting. I'm going to dig into some of that later on in this interview. Okay, so let's set some context for people who don't know. Let's talk about the animal and reptile brain. Yeah, so so look We've got this brain and in evolutionary terms. It's about 500 million years old. So we're gonna take evolution as a given by the way 500 million years old and the the oldest of it, we can call the reptilian brain or the most primitive brain. And that's now, some people call it the brain stem, the R complex.

There's a whole bunch of names for it. All of them are potentially wrong because it's all one brain. This is just a way of besting at what is happening up here. So it's what we call a model. And all models are incorrect, that just some are more helpful than others. And the helpful way I like to think about the brain is, you've got this primitive brain,

this reptilian brain, 500 million years old, it's running your heart beat, your breathing rate. It's the thing that causes you to shiver when you go into a cold shower. It's very difficult to control. You can countermeasure it if you know what stimulus is coming. So there's this reflex part of the brain. There's what we call the social mammalian brain.

Some people call that the limbic system. I don't mind what you call it. Some people will call it the amygdala. So probably all of those are incorrect. Again, the important thing is, is the model helpful, which you've got this other kind of newer part of the brain, maybe about kind of 5.5 million years old. And that's running our social skills.

It's trying to help us understand, is that person going to be a friend to us, part of our group for us? So they're going to be a good friend for life. Can we do commerce with them? Do they hold the same value system as us? So they're going to be a good friend for life. Can we do commerce with them? Do they hold the same value system as us? So can we trust them? So there's that social mammalian part of the brain. And then you've got this super new part of the brain called the neo cortex. That's why it's called the neo cortex, new brain. And that's about 200,000

years old. It's the reason we can read and write and have such a Dextrous language skill and also quite a dextrous Moton-Uron skill in our Thingos as well like you know a monkey has got a neo cortex or or cortex But it's not as big as ours and it's not as complex as ours and so therefore it's never gonna play Chopin Okay, it's just not gonna be able to do that, never going to do it. It can accidentally hammer out a few keys, but it's never going to do that. So, yeah, we've got these three parts of the brain. Some people call it the trion brain system.

Again, it's not actually how your brain is, it's a model of it, it's all one brain. Okay? Anyway, I hope that helps, Hulla. That really helps. It's super interesting to think that we have different parts of our brains that evolved at different times, and we've got to deal with all of that at the same time. And a lot of it, we don't have any control over.

So I think that is super interesting. So you are the pioneer of influence and persuasion. And a lot of people bucket those two things together. They think influence and persuasion are the same. Talks us about why they're different. Like what are the definitions of those two words? Yeah, so let's go to the definitions of them. Influence, I think it's medieval Latin.

It has kind of French Latin derivation to it or etymology. So influence means inflow to be in the river with. So, when you want to influence somebody, first of all, you need to get into their river. You need to work out where they're already going and join them, join the patterns, understand the patterns. So, one of the first, therefore, one of the first keys of influence for me is, can you be influenced by them? Can you, if you want to influence them, can they influence you? Can you join them? Can you be sympathetic? Can you be empathetic? Can you be emotionally empathetic and cognitively empathetic as well? So can you join in their feeling

and can you think about their feeling as well at the same time? So have some cognitive understanding. So that's influence. Can you get in the same space as them and really start to understand it so that you could now start to lead where you're going? Start to produce behaviors and ideas that because you're now part of a group,

they might follow you because your behaviors seem useful to them, seem quite enjoyable. And they trust you now because you've been sympathetic and empathetic. Now, then there's persuasion. Now persuasion, the etymology of that is to move hard. And so in persuasion, so if you think about this metaphor of the river, so influence and persuasion is a river, and you get in the river with them, and you're floating down

the lazy river with them, or you're swimming along hard with them and you're in the same flow where that river is inevitably going for them because they're kind of in charge of the feeling at that point. Well, as you're going along and they start to trust you, you can start to go, there are confluences in the river. There are different directions we could take. And you can start to describe those different opportunities in front of them. And as you describe those, you can start to describe those different opportunities in front of them. And as you describe those, you can kind of stack the deck. You can describe some as more valuable than others. You can evaluate the choices for them. And because they trust you and you've been along the journey so far with them, they'll trust your description and sometimes they

might ask you, well, what do you think I should do? Which way should we go? And they might even take your advice or you might even be able to go, look, we need to go this way and they go, trust you, let's do that. Okay? So that's influence and persuasion. They're two kind of different, I guess, tones or elements. And if you can get both together really, really well, you can help people get what they really need. And not necessarily just what they want or think they should have. You can help them get what they really need and would be more beneficial for them. And sometimes you can help get what you really need out of them and the situation as well. And when both are aligned, then you got a really good relationship, a good society, a

good group, a good piece of commerce. Hope that explains that well enough for you, Hala. It does. It does. Okay, so let's talk about values because I know that one of the first things that we need to do if we want to be good at influence and persuasion is to understand the other person's values. So talk to us about the methods that we can do that without being so obvious

because if we say like, what are your values? It's super obvious. What we're trying to do. So how do we get around that? Well, and also if you say to somebody, Hey, what are your values? It's super obvious. What we're trying to do. So how do we get around that? Well, and also, if you say to somebody, hey, what are your values? People will come up with stuff that they think they should be saying. Like, how many times have you looked at a website? And it says, we value, you know, one of our values is integrity. And it's like, well, okay, that sounds like it just came off the back of the serial packet

of websites. And I'm not saying the person doesn't have integrity, it's just most people don't ever use the word integrity other than situations where they're trying to build a website and tell people that they can be trusted, or they're trying to show themselves at that specific point that they're a good person, they're kind of signaling some kind of virtue. But in general conversation, they're not going, hey, I hope you saw how integrated I was. Did you see my integrity? Or I'm hoping that you understand my integrity.

It's not language that we use. So we need people to tell us the language that they're using and the things that they're choosing for being the most important things in their world, in the world that they see. Okay? And so we need kind of an interview technique that will or some questioning, that will elicit from them a hierarchy, what is most important to you about? So actually, let me try this with you because I know, yeah, so I know you do a lot of these podcasts with all kinds of people.

And thanks for having me on here. It's great to be here. What's most important for you about when you choose a guest to have, to have on? What's, what's most important for you? I like when somebody has a specific expertise on a topic. I don't want to have a conversation about everything because then we're having a conversation about nothing. So I like a specific expertise. I like to make sure that they have lots of material, lots of opinions on the matter. They've written a book, they've written multiple books, they've done speeches. They know their stuff and I can really go deep.

So that's what I look for. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So while you were doing that, I'm writing, scribbling down notes here and I'm scribbling down what you put most emphasis on. Yeah, because you said a lot of words there, all good words, but some words seem to have more value than others.

And the words that seem to have more value was specific, specific, the idea of specific. And when I look around at your, like how you appear to me, and how you've shown up in this frame, it's not very busy what's happening there. There's really kind of specific choices that you've made. Like the background is very much all, you know, one thing, these shiny things, one mic there, one color here, you know, one kind of style of, and you're showing up with usually the same style each time, every time I've noticed it. So you clearly like things being specific, really clear. And opinion, you like opinion, yeah, you like, so there's knowledge, okay, and there's lots of stuff, but what does that specific person think specifically

about this, so they know their stuff? And I think what you mean by stuff is having a specific opinion about a field, yeah? So that you can go deep. So you wanna go deep rather than shallow across everything. You can pick out somebody from an area, a field, but then you're going, well, who could go deepest and most specific about that?

Now, as I'm feeding those back to you, I'm starting to see where you're doing slow blinks to me, which are moments of recognition and when you're moving your head up and down, as well, agreeing with me. And as we start to have a conversation together, I can now get really specific with you about using some of your answers who you nodded your head and you gave me a little blink that on that word specific with you. Okay. Yeah, there you go again. So now I'm testing out these valuable words which may hint towards, I'm not saying

I've got this exactly right, but I'm on the path now to getting this more right. By getting out of you, give me a quick hierarchy about X. I could have done it on anything, okay? I could have done it on anything. I could have gone, I could have gone, hey, I know just like everybody else in our world, you must go shopping at some point. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just curious, like what's the most important thing for you when you go and buy something? What's the most, actually, just let me know that.

What's the most important thing for you? Weird question, I know, when you go and buy something. In terms of clothing or just anything. Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah. Well, I like it to be very fashionable. I like it to fit me nicely. I like it to be super high quality and just stylish. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I like all of those things. Yeah, lovely. So again, notice how I'm going to pick up what super high quality you said, and there was a really, you know, stylish. Okay, so now I can go. I want to give you a really specific answer on this

because I want it to be high quality for you. And so at that point, I'm now learning about your hierarchy system and trying to feed back to you. I'm trying to get in the river with you about that. So I don't judge because I may have a different value system. I don't, but I may have a, and in fact, one of the reasons we might get on and this interview might go well is because we share some of the same values. But what I don't want to do is ever let you see that I might not share some of those values,

because we won't get on. Like the moment I said to you, if I said to you, Hulla, I understand that you you think high quality is important in clothing, but I think for myself, and I think for a lot of other people, it isn't really the most important thing at all. I think you can, and stylish, I mean, I think really

just get something at a low price, even if it's going to fall to bits, yeah, and just keep on, keep moving on and kind of cycling through, quickly through, closing, because then that's kind of, right, can you see how your brain is going? No, Mark, no, go wrong. No, thank you. You know, thank you. You got it all wrong, okay? And often it's the value system that causes people to have argument and the value system that causes people to get on. And so I can purposely interview you for your value system, start to feed that back to you so we can get on better.

Now, why would I want to get on better with you? Well, you know, the answer to that is, well, why not? Why shouldn't we try and get on better than get on worse? And if I can get on better on purpose, why wouldn't I just do it on purpose? There's a lot of people out there that might go, hey, look, Mark, you're either going to get on or you're not going to get on and you should be authentic. And I kind of go, no, I can get on on purpose with people. I could try and get on with people who I instantly go, I think I'm going to get on with them. And I could purposely try and get along with them better because that stops me missing great opportunities, I would say.

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Go right now for 50% off your no risk 2 week trial at trinom.com.shap. That's trinom.nom.com.shap for 50% off trinom.com slash.yap. Yeah, I think it kind of just helps accelerate a relationship. And if it's not going to work out, you kind of get the idea of well sooner than later, you figure out that it's not going to work out. Right. Because there might be values that you start signaling, which I go with the best will in the world, I'm not going to join in with that. I'm just not going to do it. You know, either because in my, well, you've got to watch your gut feeling on

values because that's about comfort level, okay? You've got feeling about a value system can be about comfort level, not that it's a bad value system. It's just, I'm not feeling about a value system can be about comfort level, not that it's a bad value system, it's just, I'm not used to that value system. There are values that people can inform you of that cognitively you would go, I understand the history of that value, I understand the ramifications of that value, I'm actually, I'm opposed to that value in a, in a, in a, in a gut instinct way, in a cognitive way, I, it should not be valued. I will not join in on that. And then I could tell you immediately, I can say, hello, this just isn't going to, going to work for me. Thanks for your time,

but I think we should leave it there. I'm, I'm, I'm, I move on. So, so we could accelerate a breakup on. So we could accelerate a breakup faster, you know? And also, we could accelerate getting on with each other faster as well. So let me just like repeat this back to you. Make sure that I understand it. When somebody is talking and you're trying to figure out their values, you can ask them questions about basically anything and start to pick up on the words that they emphasize and then use those words in conversations to show them that you align with their values. Yeah, so you got, in the questioning, you need to be a little bit specific,

and you use that one on here. A little bit specific, so you can go really deep with them on what for you is most important about. So, you're looking for some kind of questioning that includes the idea of them delivering to you their hierarchy. What is most important, because there are so many important things on the planet for them, what you want is the most important thing, Or you go, what are you most enjoy?

So if I want to find that part of their value system, I might go, so they might go, you know, in small talk, I might say, what'd you do at the weekend? They might go, hey, I was hanging out with my family. Oh, great. What do you most enjoy about hanging out with your family? So the moment you do that, you're going to get their hierarchy system around with your family. So the moment you do that, you're going to get their

hierarchy system around being with family. Now, the presumption here is that values, 10 deeper values tend to go across all their behavior. So what is within their value system for hanging out in their family might be in there is most likely in their value system for who they do business with, how they choose something they buy, how they do a whole bunch of stuff, the value system will be fairly consistent if you can get specific and deep enough with that. So you want a question that will elicit the most valuable, the most important, the most interesting. So, you know, they're talking about a subject and you go, so I'm just curious, what's most interesting for you about that subject? And again, it's that idea of the most

that will elicit some words of real value. I hope that makes sense. It does. And then how do you go and use that then? So you figure out their value, how do you go and use that to then influence them? What is your best tactics there? So first of all, you show acceptance when they're saying those words. And there's lots of good nonverbal ways

of showing acceptance. I will give them good eye contact. I'll gently smile. I'll be nodding my head. I'll even make little noises like, oh, hmm, yeah, and give them positive noises when they're saying those words. Okay?

And then I'll try and include some of those words or ideas when I'm talking to them. Again, I'm not trying to do it, you know, I've been quite bold with you because we're trying to demonstrate this, okay? But it's usually going to be so subtle, they just aren't going to notice. And even if they did notice, it's too nice for them to get upset about it. It's just too, because you can even tell somebody what you're doing. And part of the brain takes it in and part of the brain just goes, I don't care if I'm being influenced and persuaded here. It just feels too good. It's just too nice being accepted.

I run by this idea that the moment we were born, really what we're looking for is acceptance. Because unless we get accepted our chances of survival are so slim. So acceptance is massively important and we've got this radar going on all the time, going, am I getting accepted? Am I part of a group here? Let's just keep checking that out and gravitating towards the people who will accept me. So I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it does and it's super powerful stuff. I love it. So let's talk about baselines because I know that establishing baselines is really important

and I'd love to understand the difference between traits and states and moods. Oh yeah, okay. So look, we could say about you, Harlow, that we could, you know, see certain traits about you. So there would be a trait. There's, let's look at your speech patterns, and there's some traits in your speech patterns or accent that kind of suggest to me, you from like near New York somewhere or... Correct. Is that right? Okay. New York somewhere or... Correct. Is that right?

Okay. New Jersey, I thought so. I thought so because there's some traits in your speech that tell me because how sometimes you're dropping some sounds which gives you a really lovely feel to it that an instrument remains to be going, oh, that's, I think that's New Jersey. And that would be a trait, but that's not a mood that you're in. And that doesn't, that trait isn't probably going to change with your mood. You're still going to have that same dropping of some parts of a word, whether you're happy or sad or angry or lonely or whatever it might be. Okay? So that's the trait and we could, you know, baseline that and go, okay, if that changes, now if that changes, wow, what's

gone on here? What's gone on here if you start to include some of those starts and ends of words that as a trait you miss out on. You know, that for me I would go, what's going on here? Why is that happening? That's unusual. Like I may be more serious or mad or something like that. Okay, so you just gave me a clue there. You've kind of gone, hey Mark, if I start being a little more... Proper. Proper. Hey Mark, if I start being a little more proper, I'm probably serious now or I'm getting angry. And so, okay, that's worth me knowing and looking at our conversation, you kind of just gave me the clue there. Now, that's not going to be the case every time, okay? So there are no

That's not going to be the case every time. So there are no definite in this, but it's a good clue. All we're ever trying to do is get closer to the truth. We're trying to get more accurate and away from less accurate. So that's good to know about you. Now, look, what I sense from you at the moment in your baseline, because you're working at the moment, and this is your work, and my guess baseline, because you're working at the moment, and this is your work, and my guess is, is you're good at this, because you have,

you're able to produce this characteristic, and it's relatively easy for you, is your upbeat, your buoyant, yeah, your positive, in a situation where, like, you don't know what I'm gonna say next, you have, you know, so you're managing quite a stressful situation here, but you're doing it at quite a buoyant level here. So you're creating, it's easy for you to create this mood of positivity, okay? And, and, and, you know, because we're together for, let's just say, around about an hour, my guess is, is you can sustain that mood for an hour or more.

In fact, you probably can go a whole day and sustain that kind of mood. So that's a mood. We can create a mood or we can have a mood come upon us, you know, like a weather system, like a dark cloud or a sunny day, and they can sustain, a mood can sustain like the weather for many, many hours, sometimes days, sometimes, you know, more than a day. But if it's going into days and days and days, then we start to think about, well, what's really going on here? Why are they in that weather pattern for so long? Why isn't the weather changed for them? And then at that point, we might kind of go, okay, there's some kind of effective disorder here. There might be, you know, just to pick out a couple

of things, there might be mania or there might be depression. You know, it's all, it's just such a big sunny day all the time. Like, you know, Hull, if I didn't notice about you outside of this that you weren't able to like, you know, shut down and kind of go, okay, I'm done with that now. I'm going to have a bit of a rest. That might indicate something of, well, you can't lose this level of positivity all the time. And how's that going to function? Because sometimes human beings need to be negative about stuff.

It's really important to go with that and work. I don't like that. You know, so look, there's that, there's moods. And now there's states. So states people can move and transition between. And they can be quite heightened states. So you could have a state of anxiety. But I would hope that your state of anxiety really heightened, like a really heightened state.

I would hope it wouldn't last for more than about 10 minutes because if you get a heightened state of anxiety for more than 10 minutes, that's real stress on your body. So I would be, you know, I don't mind you being a bit worried for 10 minutes about about something and then your brain works it out or we were able to talk about it and go, Hey, what are you worried about? And then it, it subsides. But if he keeps on going at that high level, yeah, then then that could be, it's just a lot of stress on your on your body. So states often can't last at a heightened level for emotional states for more than about 10 minutes. There's just too much pressure on the body.

Anyway, I hope that answered your question. That does. And so I guess the main reason why I wanted you to cover that is because I want people to understand that you do need to understand people's baselines so that you can see if their actions and behaviors actually mean something or not. Because if they're always like this and they're always like this and it doesn't matter, it's not because you're boring

or like let's say if somebody just talks really, has is really slow in the way that they talk or something along those lines. It might not mean that you're boring or they're uninterested. It could just be that's the way that they are. So you need to realize how they are so you can understand if what they do is meaningful or not in terms of their behavior, correct? Yeah, absolutely.

So when we're trying to look at behavior and trying to understand somebody, I think the main thing that we're looking for is notable change. That's the thing. And if we don't know the baseline, it's very hard to work out what a notable change would be. You start having to bunch people together and go, well, people are generally like this. And so this is a deviation from the norm of people generally. Well, that might get you somewhat closer to the truth, but it's not as good as being able to go. I've looked at this person's behavior

under other circumstances, similar circumstances. I've got a baseline. And so now we can look at significant deviation from that baseline. You know, it's just like a doctor should, a good doctor should do. If you come in with a symptom, yeah, and you go, well, this is now hurting or this now troubles me. One of the things a doctor should be doing is like, well, what's changed?

What are you doing differently? Because you didn't, you weren't in here last week or the week before, the week before that or you haven't been in for a whole year or three years. It's like you've never told me about this before. What's going on? They're going to look at your symptom and go, what is the root cause? They try, hopefully trying to not solve the symptom but deal with the root cause of it. And if you won't change your root cause, you know, you come in with a bad elbow and they go, well, what's been happening? It's like, well, I've just, you know, it's the tennis

tournament. So I'm, I get it. Well, you know, can you stop this hurting? It's like, yeah, can you stop playing tennis? Because that's a sport. And with sport, if you're competitive, you will have injury. It's one of the things you're other competitors are hoping for is that you get injured. You're hoping that they get injured. Okay, it's one of the things. Yeah, you're hoping to be a better player and you're hoping that their body can't take that level

for as long as you can so their body gives out. So then the doctor can go, okay, well, you know, I can give you a pain killer, but if you don't stop playing tennis or would learn to play it differently, if you don't change your behavior, there's not much I can do. The root core, I can't stop the root cause only you can. Anyway, again, I hope that makes sense to you.

It does make sense. So let's pivot. Let's talk about first impressions, and I'm going to tell you something that's personal to me, use this time to my advantage. So I run a very successful company. I have 68 employees, I run a marketing and podcast agency, I have a number one podcast. When I meet new people, I feel like I don't get respect until I tell them what I've accomplished. And most people see me, I'm very feminine, I'm petite, I'm nice, I'm friendly, and I don't

want to change that about myself. I don't want to change any of those things. I feel like it also works to my advantage. And I'm wondering, how do I come across as powerful and demanding of respect without having to say like, hey, this is everything I've accomplished, even though you probably think I work at the mall or something. Right. Right. Okay. Well, look, their brain is a best guest machine. Okay. And what it's doing is seeing the visual impact that you have.

And the brain is going, what is my best guess as to how I should perform around this other human being? How I should, where do I rank with them and my rank to above or below? What do you think our relationship will be? Will we get on with each other? And so the brain starts doing a whole bunch of best guesses around this. Now look, you are not isolated, you're not just a human being, you're a human being in the world around a whole bunch of culture

in a certain period of time. And so is that other human being. So they're doing their best guess around that. Look, one of the things we could always do, and this won't work necessarily every time for you, but sending people information ahead of time. I know this is not you just meeting somebody, but sending people information ahead of time helps them evaluate. So, at the far end of the spectrum, I could, you know, if it were me, you know, and I was getting the same kind of response. And remember, at one point, I was young like you. I wasn't, I was taller than you. I've always been taller than you, but I had hair as long as yours, which was odd for some of the worlds that I worked in.

And so, yeah, some people who the information about me had got to them earlier would understand who they were dealing with and some just wouldn't. And so they'd make mistakes. And so partly I had to go, well, that's just going to happen because I'm not showing up as their expectation of what I really am. My outward presentation is not expected, you know, and so it's a surprise to them. And they get really, you'd see moments of confusion, you know, oh, you're the guy. Oh, oh, sorry.

Oh, I thought you were something else. You know, so so sending them the information ahead of time. Here's who you're getting, okay? And then I guess look, let me ask you this, Hulla, who do you want people to know that you are? Well, I guess it's just it's just funny because I just know I'm really good at reading people, right? And I have a great online brand. So anybody who finds me online, they don't treat me like that, right? It's the people that I meet like yesterday. I was at a barbecue.

I met a bunch of strangers and when I'm like, oh, yeah, I run a company. I have 68 employees. They're like, really? Oh, wow. Like, you know, like that's how act. Like, oh, wow, wow. And then they feel like, oh, like, I can tell they're thinking, oh, I thought I was more successful than you, but, you know, I can tell that that's kind of like the attitude.

And then things change, and they're really interested in what I do, and they're really interested in me. So it's just funny to, it's just funny. And I know that when I know myself, so in those situations, I'm always like, oh, what do you do? Because I want to tell them what I do because I want quickly to them to realize that, like, hey, I'm not just a cute girl that's here

for no reason. Or you know what I mean? And I want them to know right away so that they treat me with respect and they treat me how I deserve to be treated. Sure. So look, there is an element of this. There is another way that we treat me with respect and they treat me how I deserve to be treated. Sure. So look, there is an element of this.

There is another way that we could go with this, which is to say, you are potentially a brilliant surprise for people. There's something about you that could show up at a barbecue and have that, because it sounds from your description, that very quick, that you are not afraid or ashamed or quiet about going, here's who you got here, I do this and really I'm successful at this. And as you said, and they very quickly went, well, go, oh, wow, and they changed their behaviour around you. They changed their assessment. So I question this, what is more interesting that they would look across the room and go, oh yeah, there's a CEO of a very successful company, young CEO, a very successful company.

I don't think I'll talk to that person. It doesn't really fit in with me. I'll do something else. And they were either for you or against you immediately, or actually they engage with you, they get this wonderful moment of surprise, they're good enough human beings that they can reestablish their idea of you, and they walk away from that going, you know what, the world is a very surprising place. The world is a really interesting, I'm barbecues interesting,

because you meet these people who you never expect are gonna be what they are. Because look, the alternative is you wear a cap that says, important CEO. And you send me a signal. Or I feel like maybe if I were a suit and I didn't wear makeup and I didn't do it. But it's like, that's not me. So I guess I got to just be me and it is what it is.

Well, look, I think clearly one of the great things about you is that you are wonderfully surprising to the world right now. In a decade's time or 20 years time or maybe even next year, people will look across the room at somebody like you and go, yeah, see over the company undoubtedly, easy, easy to see, easy to see. And now, and now you won't be a surprise to people anymore. Well, let me ask you this. As a woman, I'm sure there's other women listening in. How do you take up space? I know that's really important. How do you take up space and be more powerful or see more powerful than you are as a woman? Yeah, absolutely. So, look, let me introduce you to the kind of the three circles that your gestures can be in. Okay? So there's what I call first circle which is where

something on your hands or your arms is always touching your body. So here I am in first circle. Now I'm going to go to second circle which means that there's always space between my body and my limbs. there's always space there. Now, does one of me see, I'm going to gesture in the same plane. So, so I'm, you know, at Naval height here, it's a very confident plane, and I'm in second circle here, or I'm going to gesture in that same plane, and I'm in first circle right now, because I've got like no gap between here and here. Okay, so he's got his arms folded like directly over his stomach, no gap. Right, right. And in second circle, there's a gap between my hands and my body and even my elbows and my body and and then so hopefully you're seeing that one

seems to have more power and more authority, the one that's in second circle. Okay, now I'm going to go to third circle and you'll notice my my hands leave the to have more power and more authority, the one that's in second circle. Now I'm going to go to third circle and you'll notice my hands leave the frame. Now third circle is the arms lock out. This you'll often only see at big parties or rock and roll events or big performances. Now again, do you feel and see the power that's in this? What I would suggest you do is you second circle just that little bit more. That's all. Second circle just that little bit more because you will use up more territory. Our instinct is that something that uses up territory has more power. If it takes more space,

it has more power. If it has more power, we need to be careful around it, we need to respect it, we should not trouble it in any way. We should be good to it. So now, you've got to be careful with this because you don't want to take up other people's space I mean unless you really want to okay, and there's some there's some upside and there's some downside to that I mean there's no bad body language by the way There's just results that you wanted or didn't want. I've got no judgment system like don't do this and don't do that All I've got is if you want to achieve this result The this is the route to go down, but there's some Windows of opportunity there.

So if we were to get alive in the same space and I'm going into third circle and I'm going into your space, into your personal space with that, you're going to get upset with me. I'm going to trigger. I want to thank you too much. Yeah, I'm going to trigger your fight and flight system with that, which either means you're going to start getting aggressive with me or you'll start getting passive with me or something in between. And that might not be the relationship that I was looking for, or maybe I was. There's no bad body language.

There's just results that you wanted or didn't want. If I want the result of triggering you into aggression, then yeah, I might want to go into third circle in your personal space. That will certainly cause you, certain people to get more aggressive. I love this advice. Yeah, it does, it does.

I love that advice of Second Circle. I'm definitely gonna try to use that more often. Okay, so let's talk about stating. There's lots of people including myself. I got out of a 10 year relationship during COVID. A lot of people broke up with their significant others. A lot of people are getting back into dating. So I thought that we could do a quick fire segment.

I'll rattle off a phase of dating and give me your one minute best piece of advice for each phase, okay? Quick fire, it's gonna be fun. All right, so first face, setting up a dating profile, what do we do? Yeah, interesting. Look, think about who you want to be seen as, okay? This is you are projecting some qualities. What are the qualities you want to be seen as having? And what qualities might you be looking for as well? Okay, so be really clear about here's who I want to project that I am.

Okay, and that's okay. You're trying to show the best of you. Okay, we all understand that. Everybody's in the same thing. So don't be afraid to show the best of you and to have that ideal in your head of, here's the best of me I want you to see, okay, and be really clear in the visual representation of that and the word representation of that. But also be really clear about what it is that you're looking for. What are the qualities that you're looking for as well? Because, you know, if you're not projecting some of those qualities, it might be hard for people to pick up on those. You know, in the level of dating that is looking for somebody to spend a significant relationship with, you're looking

first of all for actually very similar qualities. And that's what we call the infatuation stage. If you want to, first of all, get into the infatuation stage, you've got to be showing some similarity of qualities and some ability to get on with others. Okay? That stage will pass. Okay? And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens. But think about the qualities you want to project. Think about the qualities that you're looking for,

and can you kind of encapsulate some of that into your profile? Now, is there any tricks in terms of the pictures that we should choose? Well, again, it's what effect are you trying to have? Okay? And if you can think about that effect and go and find photographs of people who you think are having that effect and mirror those photographs, yeah,

that's probably a good route to go. Is some people will have already been able to have that effect on you. How can you copy that to have that same effect? Again, there's no good or bad photographs. There's just results that you wanted or didn't want. Hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now, but in case you don't, that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you sell edgy t-shirts or offer an educational course like me, Shopify simplifies selling

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Kelly is an inspirational entrepreneur, and I highly respect her. She's been a guest on YAP. She was a former social client. She's a podcast client. And I remember when she came on Young and Profiting and she talked about her conviction marketing framework, it was like mind blowing to me. I remember immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company and the marketing efforts that we were doing. And as a marketer, I really, really respect immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company and the marketing efforts that we were doing. And as a marketer, I really, really respect all Kelly has done, all Kelly has built. In the corporate world, Kelly secured seven promotions in just eight years, but she didn't just

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Unlock your potential, unleash your success, and start living your dream life today. Tune into the Kelly Road Show available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And I would say you want to look like yourself because nothing's worse than going on a date and the person doesn't even look like their photos or doesn't represent what their photos said. So I think you do want to have some level of, it could be your best photos, but I think some level of accuracy.

And then for me, if you're not writing anything about yourself on your profile, you are swiped away. So to speak. So here's what you're trying to avoid by accuracy is what you're speaking to there is disappointment. If somebody shows up at a date and it's some in their mind, somebody different showed up. There's always an element of disappointment where they go go that's not what was on the menu. Yeah, and that might be an awful metaphor to use, but ultimately that's the way the brain works.

It's saw a menu. It says here's the opportunity. Okay, and it goes, okay, swipe on that because that I want to take that opportunity. And then the reality shows up, and the reality is so different from what was promised, that there's a moment of disappointment. Okay, all right. So next phase, preparing for your date. Mm. Again, don't feel bad about putting your best foot forward. Yeah, and I know everybody's gonna want to do that,

but there is an idea there of, you know, you've got to show a whole kind of reality around stuff. I mean, social media is so pervasive and we're able to get into so many parts of people's lives that, you know, people can always search and find the rounder you. Okay, they can always find many different facets to you. Think and be really clear about what's the facet of me that I really want to show up to this particular date. Who do I want to project myself as? That isn't like, I'm gonna make up a version of me. That's what part of you do you most want to project myself as. That isn't like, I'm going to make up a version of me. That's what part of

you do you most want to push forward at this particular date because, you know, it's going to be good for you. It's going to be fun for you. It might well be attractive, you think for them, because you're trying to get the best for yourself. Okay? And so if you're trying to get the best for yourself, push something forward that you feel is some of the best of you for this particular date, which isn't everything. If this first one goes well, okay? Over time, they'll see more of you and more facets, but trying to think how many different facets of myself should I show at this date? It's like make it easier for yourself. What is the one thing I really want to get across about myself at this date?

What about looking into the other person? Like, should you be googling the other person and finding out about them, studying up on them as well? Why not? I googled the plumber. I mean, and they're just coming to fix like a blockage in the tap. They're just changing a washer. So you're going out with somebody to go, hey, here's an opportunity. Why wouldn't you? I mean, I'm not saying you have to, but why wouldn't you? If I Google the plumber, why wouldn't you Google the person who you're going on a date with? I'm not saying you don't have to,

but if people think, well, that's the wrong thing to do, that's a bit weird. I don't think it's very weird at all. You know, we had some people round to start lopping off branches of trees around our property. It's like, I really researched them, found out. What do other people say about them? Are they good? Well, let me go on to their personal profile and see it. It didn't take very long. It soon gave me a picture of, I feel pretty confident.

I think I've made the right decision to get this person around. That's somebody just cutting branches off a tree. Okay, so, so, look, I, I got no problem with it. Okay, so how about the first initial meeting and conversation, what's your best advice for date? Yeah, so be interested. That's, that's the main thing. Be interested, be inquisitive, inquire, see whether they reciprocate. Are you inquisitive about them? Are they inquisitive about you? Does it seem to go only one way? That's always kind of interesting. You know, because the phone goes both ways, social is both ways. And if I'm just pushing my information at you, and at no point do I go, so hang on, I've been talking a long time.

What tell me, tell me about you. I'm intrigued about you, I'm curious about you. Yeah, if that doesn't happen, that's interesting. That might tell you something. In behavior, one of the things that we sometimes say is once is a pattern. And if it doesn't, you know, if they're not inquisitive once, they maybe are never going to be inquisitive. Yeah, that's a big red flag.

Okay, so my last phase here is making the first move. And I think I've been going on a lot of dates and some guys have really been getting this wrong where they go in for a kiss and I'm like, no, no, what are you talking about? This didn't go that well. So how can you signal that it's not going well or how can somebody tell that it's not going well

or tell that it is going well, or how can somebody tell that it's not going well, or tell that it is going well? Well, look, if I were to pick one factor, if I were to pick one factor, is that when people are getting on really, really well, they will close distance. In whatever human relationship it is, they will close distance because there's a comfort level, okay? So you know if we were out together whether whether it was social or business, okay? I would be looking for Are we going into spaces which have space and yet we're closing distance like you're coming towards me or I'm coming towards you And you're not backing off further.

Like if we started off in the middle of a bar and I keep moving forward and by the end of it, we're all the other side of it. It's like, okay, well this isn't, you know, now the key around this is often you can end up going with somebody into an environment with a lot of people in where closed space is going to be the norm. You know, it's rather like taking them to an elevator and going, oh, I think this is going well. It's like, yeah, but you were in an elevator. So that's the norm in an elevator. So what happens when you move into a bigger space, are they still closing distance on you? You know? Look, there are a whole bunch of factors,

but if you are not feeling a closing of space, yeah? Then there's more to be done. More work to be done. More work to be done. More time, more conversation, more alignment, you know, anyway, I hope that's helpful. It is, it is, it is. Okay, so let's talk about your perspective of the need to be inauthentic, you know,

we've got this whole, there's this whole movement about authenticity, you've got to be authentic. Being authentic is the way to be. It's the moral high ground. Inauthenticity is fake. Shouldn't fake it till you make it. I know you think this is a whole crack of BS. So tell us about that. Yes, well, it is from my point of view, simply because of the element that you put in there,

which is the moral high ground. Once people start speaking about something with a morality attached to it, then it starts, my mind, it starts to get kind of quasi-religious. And so I've got to know, so where in some kind of philosophy does it let me know what authentic would look like and what inauthentic would look like? How would I tell? How would I know

what I'm doing? Because if you look at religions which deal with morality, they will be really quite specific. We can argue this where they're being specific. We can go, I think that's the wrong way to go on that. And that's the great thing about religion. It usually has a very strong rule book, you know, that you can go to and go, look, it says here, you do it like this. If you don't do it like that, it's immoral. If you do it like this, it's moral, okay? So the moment people start attaching morality to an idea like authenticity, which is kind of up for grabs, like, what does that look like for you? How is that? Well, you know, it looks like whatever I want it to look like, okay,

well then it's very difficult for us to align on our morality. If you're going to make it moral, like how are we going to get on around this? Oh, and here's what's going to happen. If you don't look to me like you're being authentic, I will judge you as immoral. I will authenticity shame you. And I might not do it to your face, but I'm probably going to do it to other people around you and I'm going to go, yeah, but I don't think she was being authentic. It's like, how would, how would you know? How would anybody know? Like on what criteria are you making that moral judgment with, with other human beings?

So that's my big worry about it. Is it say nebulous term? It has no, people took it out of its original criteria, which young formed around the idea of authenticity. It was taken outside of that, in my mind, by a very specific quasi religious group who then coined the term universally and it started to get picked up and then it went into a common modern language of how to purport yourself, how to go about the world. It became a philosophy with no clarity to it and a moral judgment system

around it. Just very dangerous as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, and when it comes to human behavior and how you present yourself, you need to be okay with getting out of your comfort zone. And for example, like we were talking about the first impressions and meaning, meaning needing to start being more in second circle to take up space. If I do that, does that mean I'm fake? No. It means that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and I'm trying to portray who I am because you're judging me because I haven't been doing those actions. Or you know what I mean? So it's trying to be the best version of yourself. Exactly. You're living on purpose. If it were not authentically part of you,

you physically won't be able to do it. You just go, I can't actually, and maybe it would still still just feel like that. I go, I know it feels like you can't go into second circle, but let's work together on getting more comfortable or dealing with the discomfort of these behaviors because they are you. They are you. It's just you're not used to them and so therefore they feel less comfortable, but they will more likely get you the results that you want. You know, this is, and, and, and, hello, have you, have you got where you are today, which is, which is an excellent level, a level of excellence that you keep on,

you know, pushing forward on? Have you got there by being wholly comfortable all the time, or were there moments with? No, I'm always uncomfortable, always. Right, right. But I get more comfortable and more comfortable, like every time you do it once, then the next time it's second nature,

you get used to it and more used to it. Right, so some people might go, so we get that. Yeah, and I totally understand that. But some people in the moral authenticity realm would go, but why don't you just show us that discomfort? So what's your reasoning for not showing us that inner discomfort when you are pushing your boundaries? Because I want to portray as like who I want to be even if I'm not that yet. Right. So you're wanting to portray who you want to be even if you're not that yet. Right. So you're wanting to portray who you want to be,

even if you're not that yet. For me, that's about authorship. I want to write this story that isn't necessarily absolutely true right now. I want to write the story. That for me is authenticity. When you write your story on purpose, okay? That's, that for me is what authenticity is really about. I'm writing this story on purpose and like any writer, any really good writer, it's really uncomfortable. All of them will go, well you go, how do you write that book? It really hurt. It was really hard work to come up with that idea to make something that wasn't fully formed into something fully formed that communicates to other people and makes their lives better. Like that was really tough work and it's the same as creating an authoring and being authentic a version of you. It's not about comfort. It's about pushing through

and managing the discomfort of being something more than the world would have you be if you were just comfortable. Yeah. So my last question to you before we start to wind down, because I know we're way over time and thank you so much for your time. Is you did mention storytelling. And I heard you in an interview and you said something really powerful. You said that the truth and the facts are not the same. And I really resonated with this because I think I'm a great storyteller, especially when I go on these podcast interviews.

And sometimes I'll embellish stories, not because I want to lie, but because I'm trying to get the emphasis of the story across and connect with the audience. So talk to us about why facts and the truth are actually not the same and what a great storyteller is. Yeah, so my best friend once told me, do not let the cold, dead hand of reason get in the way of a good story. So we've got to know the difference between story and truth and fact. So fact is a discernible thing that you need more than three people to have something sensible. I mean, they can literally sense it and they

can all cooperate to go, we sense the same thing. Therefore, it is factually accurate. Again, factually accurate, not true, factually accurate. Now, truth is way more complex. So we can have some factually accurate things that we can create a truth from as well, which means the truth will communicate to even more people and will have even more value. Facts don't necessarily have much value to some people. It's like who cares? It's a fact, who cares? Truth tends to hit something inite about us that we go, yeah, that's how the world is. And so there will be the idea of your truth. It's like, that's the way I see it. That's my truth. It's like, okay, I get it. It doesn't mean it's factually accurate at all. Don't

like, don't mix the two things up. Don't get them confused. I'm totally happy for you to go, look, that's the truth as I see it. Okay? But you to go, look, that's the truth as I see it, okay? But you can't do like, that's the fact as I see it. Well, who else sees that fact? Can we, if you can get me more than three people, like now, now we're somewhat getting towards a fact, which isn't necessarily the truth. And when it comes to good storytelling, exaggeration and repetition and rhythm and, you know, humanity, all elements in a story that can help people understand the truth of it. But facts don't need to be any part of that. They don't need to be. They could be, but they don't have to be. Which means

you've got to be careful of somebody who, who, if you're into behavior and you like to read body language and you like to look for deceit and exaggeration, is you'll become a really annoying person if you keep interrupting people's stories and going, well, that's not a fact. So, it doesn't, well, no, obviously not. They're not being factual right now. They're telling you a story in order to have an effect and tell you the truth about the world that they see. And yes, they might use the word fact, but they probably don't have one.

And now you've got to decide whether you go, well, sorry, that is an effect, or whether you just let them tell the story that it's factual, okay? And how important it is, is it that you take them up, that their facts aren't facts, okay? Again, you've got to understand your value system. What facts do you value most,

that you will never let be corrupted. And all other facts don't matter, don't matter, just whatever. Anyway, I hope that makes that clear. It does make sense. So the last question I ask all my guests on Young and Profiting podcast is, what is your secret to profiting in life?

Wow, that's a super question. Just making a clear choice. Just trying to concentrate on one thing. Again, one of my greatest teachers ever, and you got it from his teacher as well, said, make a choice, make it bigger, keep it tidy, make a choice, make it bigger, keep it tidy. So decide on what it is. Now understand, your decision on what it is is not big enough. They're never gonna be able to see it.

It's too small, okay. You've gone too small. Make that bigger now. Okay, so everybody can see it and it's really clear for you. Okay, now what's gonna happen is you're gonna go, oh, but if I added a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of the other more people would like it and it'd be prettier and nicer and more amazing or more delicate or you know, just might not look so bold and get attached so much. Keep it tidy. Just make the choice and make it bigger. Keep it tidy. Don't add other stuff to it because if you get that clarity of communication about what it is to others and to yourself,

you have more chance that you and other people will get it. Now at the same time, there's a risk to that by the way. Some people will get it more and they won't like it. So you're going to get more people who potentially like it because they can see it and more people who dislike it so they can't. So I want to just quote another hero of mine, Banksy, the artist Banksy, who says, they either love me or they hate me or they have no idea who I am. So I think that's an important adage as well. I love that. Those are great things. And where can our listeners go learn about you and everything that you do?

Yeah, just find me at truthplane.com. T-H-P-L-A-N-E, truthplane.com or Google Mark Bowden. And I'll come for you. Amazing. I'll put all his links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Mark. This was an awesome conversation. I could talk to you for hours.

I feel like we have a whole other sales conversation to have later in the year. I'm just, you know, so happy to have you as a friend and a collaborator and thank you again for coming on the podcast. It was wonderful. Thank you. My pleasure. Great to be with you. I'll come back to talk to you and the audience anytime. Thank you. Well, that was one for the books. I am so glad that Mark was here to share his thoughts on human behavior and body language. And for those that listen to the show quite often, you know that this is one of my favorite topics. So for me, this was a super interesting conversation.

Mark taught us the difference between influence and persuasion. Influence means to get into the flow with. It's really all about empathy. In order to influence or persuade someone, we have to understand their values. I personally value when conversations are specific and when people have strong opinions. I want to go deep rather than shallow. We have to be able to feed into someone's value system because it helps accelerate our relationship with them. It's best to ask questions that are going to elicit the interests and values of a person.

From there you can show acceptance by using visual cues like nodding or maintaining eye contact. We also talked about understanding baselines. This is really important. Our traits are things like our speech patterns and our inflection points. We all move in and out of various states and our moods can be sustained for many hours or just a short amount of time. You need to understand people's baselines to understand what their behavior means. Some small things that people may do may be more meaningful than we realize.

Mark also taught us the best way to take up space and command room. I loved this tip. He talked about the first circle. This is when we're really closed up. Our limbs are touching our body and we're really small. We're not taking up much space in this first circle. While in the second circle position, there's a lot of room to gesture. There's a gap between our arms and our bodies. We seem more generally open. And then the third circle, that's when we are super open. Our arms

are locked and spread out way far apart from our bodies. Mark suggested using the second circle more often to gain up territory. If we take up more space, we'll have more power. So keep this in mind next time you're in a meeting or next time you're in a social setting. Try to keep your arms away from your body and be more open and see how people react to you. Mark also said that we should not think of being

an authentic as being a moral. Being an authentic is not the same as being a moral. It's kind of counterintuitive, but when it comes to human behavior, you need to know how to present yourself, and that's not wrong. Just because we want to be the best version of ourselves doesn't mean we're bad people. Stepping out of ourselves in a social setting takes courage, and is portraying who we want to be even if that's not necessarily who we are today. And to me trying to find that courage is authentic and that's how you grow. If you like this episode and you want to learn more about human behavior go check out number

eight hacking human behavior to gain influence with chase use. This is one of my most downloaded episodes and it's a fan favorite. Here's a clip from my episode with Chase back in episode number eight. We have a lot of things going on at one time and it's best to just master one thing at a time until it moves from the front of your brain, we have to pay attention to it to the back of your brain towards kind of automatic. So like driving was really hard at first until you got good at it. And now you can kind of zone out on your way home from work. So it'll become unconscious, but I'd say the most important thing to being able to read people, and this is a skill that

everyone needs. Like if you're in sales, you're in the human behavior business. If you're in business, you deal with human behavior on a regular basis. So being able to see this stuff and really understand what it means is so critical. I mean, even if it's two thirds and not 90% of communication, like a lot of studies suggest, it's more than half of communication and we almost deliberately ignore it. So I think once you're able to start seeing behavior, just watching it for its own sake, and then learning more about it, the first thing that usually happens to people is that it's really depressing because you will see suffering and insecurity and fear in every person that you meet. But in the end, suffering is like the universal law

of human beings. Everyone is suffering. Everyone's going through something. Everyone is self-conscious. I've never met a non-self-conscious person. Again, if you liked this episode, go check out episode number eight, hacking human behavior to gain influence with chase use. Thanks for listening to this episode

of Young and Profiting Podcast with Mark Bowden. You guys can find me on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. Big thanks to the amazing Yap team as always. I couldn't do this without you guys and appreciate all your hard work. This is Hala signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast.

My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money.

Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like, know yourself better, where we discuss questions like, are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever? And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happy. Listen and follow the podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. You're getting a diploma.

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