Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Michelle Lederman: Grow Your Network and Influence with the 11 Laws of Likability | E194

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

‘It’s not what you know, it’s who you know.’ We’ve all heard that cliché phrase, but any successful person will preach the importance of a strong network. Building relationships is vital to your personal and professional growth, and there are certain steps you can take to make yourself more likable in order to make those connections.  Michelle Tillis Lederman CPA, MBA, PCC, was named one of Forbes’ Top 25 Networking Experts and is the founder and CEO of Executive Essentials, a training company that provides customized communications, leadership coaching, and training programs.  In this episode, Hala and Michelle dive into what makes somebody likable and how that differs from person to person. Michelle explains the dangers of networking for need and how we can approach networking more personally to build more meaningful long-lasting connections. They also discuss the laws of likability, the three types of listening, and the different levels of connectors. Topics Include: - Michelle’s early desire to become a teacher - Pivoting from finance to teaching - Defining likability  - Relationship networking  - The problem with networking for need - What does it mean to be disliked?  - Laws of likability  - Discovering authenticity  - Staying authentic while adjusting your energy  - Figuring out what is likable about you  - It’s not about you - it’s about the relationship  - The three types of listening  - Verbal, vocal, and visual community - Minimizing language - Mood memory  - The value of referrals  - Different levels of connectors  - And other topics… Michelle Tillis Lederman is a top networking expert and author. Her clients include government officials, scholars, and Fortune 500 companies, like Madison Square Garden, Citi, Johnson & Johnson, and Ernst & Young. Michelle is a firm believer in the power of relationships and has dedicated her career to teaching people how to communicate with confidence, clarity, and connection.  She has delivered seminars internationally for fortune 500 companies, universities, high schools, and nonprofit organizations. She has written multiple books on likability and networking, including The Connector’s Advantage and The 11 Laws of Likability.  Resources Mentioned: Michelle’s Connector Quiz: https://michelletillislederman.com/connector-quiz/  Michelle’s Books: https://michelletillislederman.com/books/  Michelle’s Website: https://michelletillislederman.com/  Michelle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/communicationexpertspeaker/  Michelle’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/mtlederman  Michelle’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mtlederman/ Michelle’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MichelleTillisLederman Michelle’s Blog: https://michelletillislederman.com/blog/  Jim Kwik: From Broken Brain to Kwik Brain - Learn Faster and Improve Your Memory | E190: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/young-and-profiting-with-hala-taha/id1368888880?i=1000581371922  Sponsored By:  JustWorks - Take a look at Justworks' transparent pricing by visiting justworks.com/pricing Lands End - Go to business.LandsEnd.com/YAP and use promo code YAP for 25% off your first product. Indeed - Visit Indeed.com/YAP to start hiring now. Shopify - Sign up for a free trial at shopify.com/profiting Swag.com - Go to swag.com/yap and get 10% off your order The Jordan Harbinger Show - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review -  ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Join Hala's LinkedIn Masterclass - yapmedia.io/course Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. One of the things that we have to accept is that not everybody is going to like us. And for somebody like me, that was a really hard thing to accept, because I wanted everyone to like me, but what you can do is enable people to see what is likable about you.

I get a lot of like, I can't do this, or I'm not good at this. And those are conclusion-based statements. I want everyone out there right now to think about for the rest of today, as you speak. Are your statements action-based or judgment-based? I'm not a good public speaker, judgment. I haven't figured I had to do this yet. Possibility. What is up, young and profitors? You're listening to YAP Young and Profiting podcasts where we interview the brightest

minds in the world and turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life. I'm your host, Tala Taha, AKA the podcast princess. Thanks for listening and get ready to listen, learn, and profit. Hey Michelle, thanks for being on Young & Profiting Podcast. I'm excited to be here. Young & Profitors Today on the show we have Michelle Tillis Letterman. Michelle is a people expert, a motivational speaker, CEO and founder of Executive Essentials, a firm that runs communication and leadership programs

for businesses and professionals alike. Her company has worked with household brands like Deloitte, Johnson & Johnson in J.P. Morgan, and she's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, NPR, and CBS amongst other major publications. Michelle is also the author of numerous bestselling books centered around likability, communication, and networking, and Michelle likability is literally one of my favorite topics. In fact, my first episode ever on Young and Profiting five years ago was with Dr. Jack Schaefer on the topic of Likability.

And needless to say, I'm super excited for this conversation because you are one of the top experts in the world on Likability and networking. So thanks for being on again. And so let's start here. You are an entrepreneur and your top expert in your field. But at one point, you worked in corporate and actually in finance. So let's start here.

I want to get to know you a little bit better. I want my listeners to know you a little bit better. And based on my research, you became disheartened by the lack of leadership and communication at your job. And at some point, you were the only woman on the training floor and on the venture capital team. And you realized that at heart, you were a teacher. And that's when you really start to go out on your own and start to design your dream career and what you call now as a connection creator. So tell us about how you ended up on this path and the events and thought process

that led up to you becoming an entrepreneur? Well, you really did do your homework. I'm so impressed. You hit a lot of the things. The funny thing is I wanted to be a teacher when I was in sixth grade. Mrs. Norma Green with her word of the day just inspired me to want to be a teacher, but as somebody who grew up without financial security, I thought that's just not going to get me where I want to go to be young and profitable.

So I pursued a career in finance, and a lot of that was because I was good at it. And a lot of times we choose our careers based on our skill set, but not necessarily our passion. And so, yes, I followed finance. I was the only woman on the venture capital team. I was the only woman at all times on the trading floor with the exception of the secretary, and I was often mistaken to be a secretary, yeah, good times, finance in the 90s.

I was managing about $100 million for the bank. And we had people come and in left and right, saying, invest in my hedge fund and pitching me, and I thought, yeah, this is not how you do it. And really wanted to just say, could I explain to you how to get money for me? And that's honestly where the work started. At the same time, being on that trading floor

and seeing how the leadership was and how the communication wasn't, those two areas just said, there's something here. And I got to start to be what I always wanted to be, which is a teacher, but just in a way that affected, not the youth of America, but the adults of it. Yeah, and so did you have any educational background in psychology or anything like that? Because if you were in finance, it's such a big jump.

So I'm just wondering how you made that jump. So I wasn't a county major, but I was a writing in a communications minor. So it wasn't that I had no education there. I just didn't think that that was the major career. So that was my area of interest and passion. So I did have that education, but what I did and what anybody else out there can do is I am a continuous learner.

So when I was working on the trading floor is actually when my transition started. My boss became the CEO of the Tokyo branch of the bank and he said, Michelle, go hire a coach and go out to Japan and teach everybody how to deal with me. But literally was his instruction. And I was like, okay, so I hired some coach, paid her a ridiculous amount of money compared to what I was making, then did everything she didn't end some. So at the end of the week, and here's a key thing for anybody who's thinking about making that leap out of corporate and into entrepreneurship, that self-confidence to know you can do it. At the end of the week, I went to the CEO and I said,

I can do that. And he said, okay, but you still have to do everything else. And I said, okay. And he then sent me to take classes, work with Miles Martell, who, that name doesn't mean anything to you, but he actually was the coach for Reagan and Rumsfeld back in those days. So very prestigious speaker who helped me hone my skills. Anytime he wanted a class taught, he would say, Michelle, go take a class and then go teach us. So we literally paid for my education. Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah. So basically your corporate job allowed you to excel in this new path and you took it as sort of the opportunity, I talk about this all the time on the podcast, the opportunity set B, you had one role that you were paid for and one that you were passionate about, but they let you explore those opportunities. And honestly, when you're in a corporate job, there's nothing better than a corporate job that allows you to kind of expand outside of what you were hired for. Absolutely.

And one of my vendors, so I was doing risk management. And one of my vendors needed a director of marketing. And I was like, oh my God, all my friends from business school have been laid off. Tell me who you need, know the connector mindset that I have, and I'm like, I'll know somebody. And we're going through, they're telling me, they're talking to me, and I'm like, wait a minute.

Are you offering me a job? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, I don't know anything about marketing. They're like, yes, you do, Michelle. When somebody believes in you, and that's what I talk about connected leadership, because when you believe it in somebody else, you elevate them to live up to those expectations.

And so I said to them, I'm like, okay, but I'm doing this business on the side, and this is a short-term plan, and oh, and I promised my boss I'd still go to Japan and they're like, that's fine. We'll wait. It's okay. You can take days off. And I was like, okay, I'm sold.

And so I went to this startup risk management firm and I got my appointment to NYU. So I would leave early on Tuesdays and Thursdays. My first client, I landed with JP Morgan. Amazing. I would say like, hey, I landed with JP Morgan. Amazing. I would say like, hey, I'm gonna take tomorrow off because I'm gonna go teach a tape Morgan. But we like, good luck. Oh my gosh, that's so supportive.

Super cool. And it's about transparency, it's about communication, and it's also about fully showing up for them as well. Yeah, I can totally agree. I mean, when I was building this podcast and later the agency, I worked at Disney. And they were supportive too. They didn't mind. I used to do interviews at lunch, but that's because I rocked my day job. You can't like slack on your day job. Then they're not going to want you to do that. They know that actually side hustles can

make you feel more energetic, more happy, more like positive, and that's always good for employees to be more productive, right? So a good employer knows that following your passion and encourage people to do that is actually a good thing for productivity. Alright, so let's get into the meat and potatoes of the interview because likability is my favorite topic out of all human behavior topics and you have a very, very popular book called The 11 Laws of Likeability. And in it, you talk about how to discover your most likeable characteristics, start conversations, keep them going, make lasting positive impressions. And so I think it's the perfect guide for networking. So let's start off with the very basics, some definitions. How do you define likeability and how does likeability relate

to networking? So the funny thing is, and I'm going to take that second question first, I didn't want to use the word networking in the book. The publishers made me. And they're like, it's for SEO, you have to have networking on the cover, it has to be in the title, and I said, but it's only half of it.

They're like, what's the other half? I said, well, relationships. And so I actually coined the phrase relationship networking. And it's a way to kind of shift how we think about this thing called networking, which has the word work in it, which makes people not want to do it. And we have all of these yucky associations with it. And so I just say that it's another way of making friends.

And likeability is in all of us. It is self-defined and it is other defined because we can't say here's the qualities that make somebody likeable. One publisher wanted to actually change the title of my book to 50 Ways to make yourself likeable. I'm like, that's not what I'm teaching. Because you can't make anybody like you. But what you can do is enable people to see what is likeable about you.

And to understand that what is likeable about you for you is gonna be different than for the guy on the corner. Yeah, I love that. And there's so much actionable advice in terms of how we can do that. But before we get into that, you often say that people do business with people they like. That's actually the subtitle, I believe, of your book. Can you talk to us about why legability is a big factor in business? Because usually people think likeability, they think friends, social, but why is that

a big factor in business? Oh my God, it's huge. And there's so many statistics to back it up. Likeability is one of the six factors of influence according to Rob ultra-Dini's book. When you are likable, you are seen as more credit worthy, more trust worthy. Your ideas are received and acted upon. So you are listened to, you are more influential.

You are seen as more innovative because you get credit for the ideas that other people then expand on because of the connection you have with them. They receive them, they morph them, they play with them, and then it's like, oh, well, that was Michelle's idea. So all of those things, but influence impact innovation, being listened to, like a building also affects things like promotions and getting the job and getting the sale and getting the referral because all business is relationship business. And we often don't work for a company. We work for a person.

We don't quit a company. We quit a person. When we are hiring somebody, when we are thinking about who we want to work with, it is who. Because a lot of people can do the same thing, and the differentiator is who that person is, and do I trust that they'll have my back? Do I trust that they'll step up when I ask for something? Yeah. Another thing that's sort of often confused

when it comes to networking and things like that, is that like networking, this thing that you do for some ultimate outcome. I'm networking because I want to get a job. I'm networking because I want to get a job. I'm networking because I want to find a husband, you know, whatever it is. Why do you think that we need to not have this kind of approach to networking?

So you saw me like kind of cringe when you said that. Yes, I hate the whole networking for need. And that's why I hate the word. Because I just want you to connect. I just want you to build relationships, the ones that you want to, because those are the ones that are going to get you where you want to go. And the idea is that it's not strategic. And I know we have to be more intentional, but there's a difference between strategic and intentional. I can intentionally put myself in situations to be curious about somebody else. Right?

Law of curiosity is one of the laws of likeability to be interested in somebody else. But I don't have to be thinking, well, you can't do anything for me so next. If I'm enjoying my conversation with you, that's all that matters, because I don't know who you are connected to. I don't know who you went to college with, who your neighbor is, who your next door cousin swellies for moved is. Because when real connection happens, those other connections extend more easily. So when it comes to relationship networking, there's three shifts I want people to make.

The first shift is from talking about business. I always say, please don't get right down to business. Everyone hears that phrase, let's get right down to business. No, please don't. get right down to business. No, please don't. Get right down to personal. Get right down to the things that you really enjoy talking about because when we connect on what we like to do rather than what we do, that's where connection forms. Because connections are about how many people places, causes, values, experiences, interests

and not jobs. Yeah. So, get away from just talking interests, and not jobs. Yeah. So get away from just talking business, talk about anything. Shift number two is from short term to long term, which is what you're saying. It is not about now or need. It is about relationship building and having that mindset. And the third is from, it's not about me,

which is the other thing that you're saying. A lot of times we're out there, it's what do I need and who do I want to connect with. But it's not about them either, because that's just, it's about me and reverse. It's about the relationship, I call it the dance, the exchange. And how do you add value for both sides? Yeah. Those are some great pointers. And one more kind of foundational question before we move on to

Some of the actual laws and that's this idea of being disliked so What does it mean to be dislike and what happens like why is it so hard to be around people that we don't like? I wouldn't know about being disliked Actually what are the reasons I wrote the book was because I had very polarizing responses from people. They love me or they hated me, but there wasn't a lot in between, and I didn't know what I was doing.

So one of the things that we have to accept is that not everybody is going to like us. And for somebody like me, that was a really hard thing to accept because I wanted everyone to like me. And you asked before about the importance of likeability and we talked about some of the things, but it also has things like you won't get sued for malpractice when your patients like you and there's all these, there's so many ways that it stretches into our results. But we have to accept that not everybody's gonna like you, but not liking you doesn't mean they dislike you. And I wanna give, you know, people can be neutral, people can be indifferent, and that's okay,

and giving them space to maybe build a little bit of positivity over time. And I always say appreciate the differences, accept and focus on those that do want to be in your orbit. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree

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That's trinom-n-o-m.com-shap for 50% off trinom.com-shap. You can't make everybody like you. And I'm similar to you. I feel like when you're confident and bubbly, like some people just can't stand that. You know what I mean? And so I'm like you, I feel like people you ever love me or hate me. But like you said, you can't win a mall. All you can do is just try your best and to be your best to be likeable. So speaking of being bubbly, me and you are both very bubbly happy people. Do you actually need to be bubbly and perky to be likeable? Oh God no. And actually, I think sometimes it's worked against me. I did a talk called you the

brand and I had, it was at my alma mater at Lehigh and I was kind of greeting people as they came in because that's me. Hi, welcome. You know, At the end of it, I let people kind of tell me what they think of me. And I say they don't have to be nice. And I ask them if that changed because we talk about how perceptions don't change very easily. Yeah.

And this woman raised her hand, she said, I almost turned around and left. She said, you just came on too strong. And she said, I'm glad I didn't. Now I get it. But what she said was I'm glad I didn't. Now I get it. But what she said was you realized it because I think she's physically like backed up. So what we talk about is productive energy. So one of the laws of like abilities, the law of

energy, and it is not about bubbly and perky and oh my god, I want to slap that smile off your face. But it's about productive energy and what is the valuable energy in the moment of my exchange with you? So are you in a place that needs a calming energy? Are you in a space that needs a validating energy? Do you need somebody to talk you off the ledge or to pump you up? And we talk about different energy responses and what are typical and what are productive. So, I think this is going to relate to what I'm about to say next. So, the law of authenticity, right? This driver of being authentic in what you're talking about energy right now,

sort of like we need to read the room. But if you are like bubbly, perky, and the person next to you is maybe really calm. Do you become inauthentic to then try to get down to their level? What are you saying we do in terms of our energy? Like, do we match other people? Or do we just stay authentic to ourselves? So we want to meet somebody where they are,

or just over or just under, depending on if they're energies in a productive place. If they're just somebody who's really chill, and you come on super strong, you're not gonna mesh. But it's not like you're gonna be like, yeah, I'm chill. Like, that's not authentic.

So, if somebody is a little calmer, I might be like, oh yeah. I might bring my volume down a little bit. I might talk a little bit slower, but it's still gonna have animation, and it's still gonna have my hands moving, but maybe they won't be moving quite as big. So it's just about flexing and that's the temporary momentary adjustment of your style to enable that

connection to happen, to enable that likeability to be seen where it's not being drowned out by the boldness of a personality. Okay, so let's move on to what I just mentioned, this law of authenticity. How can we discover what is authentic to ourselves? That's a really great question. And that just getting an overview of the book, the first four chapters are about before the conversation, right? Getting our head in the game.

And so authenticity, and I'll just name the four authenticity, self-image, the law of perception and the law of energy. They kind of work together. So how you see yourself is how others are going to see you. You can drive it, but you have to like you first. So when we think about authenticity, it's a little bit about that inner voice. And how are we treating ourselves? And how do we see ourselves? And I have a technique that's actually in the second chapter of the love self image about being your own best friend. Because sometimes we need to shift that language that we're using with ourselves. And you know, I've had people come up to me saying, well, I'm just a jerk. And so I'm being authentic. And I'm like, yeah, authenticity is not a excuse

or permission to be a jerk. Authenticity's understanding are unique charms, our strengths, and the things that work for and against us. And it's about deciding about what to bring forward in any given situation. But also, it's about self-acceptance. Because authenticity, like, okay, we just said, we're bold, we're perky, we're loud, I'm loud.

You guys told me I had to turn the volume down of my microphone before we got on this podcast because it was like, too loud, Michelle. So I have to learn that sometimes I need to just bring the volume down. I need to slow the speech. That doesn't mean I'm being inauthentic. It means I'm being adaptable for somebody else to show that it's not just about me, it's

about the relationship and that's one of the shifts we're making. Yeah. And so, I know that it's important throughout this whole process, like you said. This is all about figuring out what's like above about you, because not everything about you is going to be likable. So how do we go about figuring out what it is that people like about us? Ask. I mean, here's the really simple thing in life.

Is feedback is a really wonderful piece of information. And you know, you'll laugh at me, but it's something we do in my household quite often. And when we're recording this, this is right after the high holidays where we think about what we want to be forgiven for and what we want to like be better at in the new year. And this is like, we have family feedback where we'll say like, Hey, what do you want to work on this year? Or, Hey, this is the thing you should work on this year. And so you have people in your life that will give you this good information.

Your job is already giving you this information. Ask questions, ask for specifics, ask like a diverse group. So I always say, and I have an exercise in the book for like exactly how to do this, ask frenemies and exits. And you'll get some really great information, but really be careful about what you ask them. Don't just say, you know, how would you describe me? Because then that gives them free reign to be me, especially if they're not maybe your allies and advocates. Instead say, what is one quality that you admire in me?

Or what is one's strength that you think I bring to the table? And so that you can start to see the positive things that even people who don't want to say nice things about you will still say about you. Yeah, I love that tip. Ask your enemies and ask your exes because you know that they're gonna give it to you. They're gonna let you know,

especially what they don't like about you. That's funny. So in your book, you write that building strong relationship, starts with abandoning the conventional me-based thoughts. You say it's not about you, it's about the relationship. You alluded to this in the beginning, but can you further explain why it's not about me or you? It's about the actual relationship.

The relationship has, it's like its own entity and how you have an exchange with somebody, how you kind of think about your interactions with somebody. It kind of has a life of its own. And when you think about shifting away from me, people always say, what are the most important laws in the book? Or they ask me for one, and I always give them two, because I can't choose.

And we already started talking about one with authenticity, because you cannot connect, you cannot be likable unless you're being real. And people can feel the mass, they can see it. So authenticity is kind of like the foundational thread through all the other laws. And the other law always say is love giving. And so when we talk about the relationship having a life of its own, if you come into it with this mindset of giving to give first to give off, and because you want to not without expectation of something in return, or should they not with expectation of something in return, I will tell you, the original title of that chapter

was Love, reciprocity. And it just wasn't sitting right, because when I talk about that content, I'm not talking about give to get. I'm not talking about quid pro quo. And that's why we changed the title to the law of giving, because it really is that mindset of how do I add value to you?

How do I show you that I hear you, that I'm focused on you, that I'm curious about you, that I care about you, that I want to support you, that I want to help you? And when you feel that from me, you want to bring it back, but it's not because, right, it's not like I have to, it's I want to. And sometimes and oftentimes when we think about giving, we can give in one direction, but we receive from another. And so that mindset of giving, it has to be always there for relationships to have foundation to grow on. And don't worry if it feels really one directional in either direction, because if you bring that mindset to your

relationships, even if sometimes you are the receiver, it gives you that permission. Yeah. I have to say that like I hear this theme all the time in human behavior and gaining influence. It's really about showing that you care and being a caring, but being a good person, caring about other people, wanting to give to other people, having good intentions. To your point, not having like, this is the exact outcome that I want and I'm only friends with you for this specific reason. It's just actually caring about people. And to further show that you care about people, you also should be curious about them, right?

So you talk about this law of curiosity in your book. And people, they like to be asked questions about their lives. And I heard that when people ask you, when you're meeting somebody and they're like, what do you do? You actually skirt right around that question and you tell them what you did that weekend.

So I want to dig into the questions we should ask and all that kind of stuff to drive curiosity. But why do you do that? That's such a great tip. Well, I'm because I have no idea how to answer the question we should ask and all that kind of stuff to drive curiosity. But why do you do that? That's such a great tip. Well, I'm because I have no idea how to answer the question of what I do. I'm like, well, it depends on the day of the week. I'm like, and so I always struggle with that elevator pitch or that like tight little sentence that says, this is what I do.

And I just never liked that question. And it goes back to the fact that that's not interesting. And that's not what's going to make me connect with somebody and that's not where I want to start my relationship. So when they say, what do you do? I say, well, for fun, or I say, well, this weekend, or I might say, for who? Because that's a really another way to kind of put that mindset out of, so what do I do for someone. So yes, I love that. And it goes back to your point of like not getting straight down to business. It's like instead of getting straight down to business,

you're like, no, I'm gonna tell you something personal about me. And that's because maybe you're trying to find common ground. So maybe we can just switch and talk about this law of familiarity and similarity because I have a feeling that you bringing up those things also enables you to start to kind of find common ground with the new people that you meet, right? So you're now talking about the anatomy of a conversation and that's the middle part of the book.

So we talk about the law of curiosity, the law of similarity, the law of listening, and the law of familiarity or mood memory, I should say. Moody familiarity is at the end. Moved memory. So when we think about the anatomy of a conversation and people are like, especially, I have a lot of content for introverts. If they're introverts that are listening out there right now, we're going, Yuck, no, thank you, not me. Like, I'm going to just not listen to this episode. I got to tell you that introverts have some of the most

innate skills when it comes to connection and To understand that when we say be curious or we say be social we don't mean social butterfly We don't mean work the room. We may put yourself in the position to be curious about one other human in any environment in any space and Introverts are really really good at that. They're great at asking questions. They're great at listening They're great at the one-to-one. So don't worry about what it looks like for anybody else and do it your way, first of all. And if you say, I don't know how to start a conversation,

my answer is always start by being curious. And ask a question you actually wanted the answer to. And then for the introverts, I'm gonna give you a little more of a cue here. I also want you to ask a question that you're willing to answer, because a lot of times with introverts I'm going to give you a little more of a cue here. I also want you to ask a question that you're willing to answer because a lot of times with introverts will ask and will ask and it becomes an interrogation. It could, right, because you're doing this great thing of being curious and drawing information

in, but we also need a little self-disclosure. And when I refer to the dance, this is what I mean. The dance in that conversation of ask and listen, right, love, listen, you got to listen so you can probe and ask more questions, but then listen and share. So we start with the ask, we then go to listen, listen and probe, listen and share. And through that, we're looking for that similarity because people like people like them. Easy. People like people like them.

Now this is great. It isn't great in some ways, but it's great in some ways. What I want to challenge people with is don't go for the obvious. We're both women. We're both of this age. We're both of this background. We're both of this area, whatever view, whatever industry, right? Those are simple.

I want you to kind of be a detective and try to figure out what's not obvious about what we have in common. Those common values, experiences, causes, passions, dreams, destinations, all of those things. So it's a little bit like a scavenger hunt and that curiosity really drives the conversation. But we actually need to be willing to give information as well. really drives the conversation, but we actually need to be willing to give information as well. Yeah. And I know that you often talk about three types of listening. And I was just talking about this. Do you know who Jim Quick is?

Yes. So I just had Jim Quick on my show. And we were talking about memory. And it's one of these likeability factors, which is showing that you care, right? That you care enough to even remember somebody's name. So it's not just enough to listen. You actually have to recall information and throughout the conversation prove that you're actively listening and that you care about them enough to actively listen.

So I thought these three types of listening really kind of elaborates on this point if you want to explain what that is. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, we got listening in, listening out, and listening intuitively. So listening in is where we are 80% of the time. What it means is we're taking in the information and we're kind of putting it through the filter of how does this apply to me and what can I share. And the reason why listening in is great is because it gives us that enabled, I used to say

ability to say the M2 YouTube, but now MeToo has a whole different meaning so I can't say that anymore. But the idea that you're sharing something that I might have had a similar experience so that law of similarity exists. And so when we listen in, we're listening to find those moments of similarity and to have a share and to create some kind of common connection.

And so it might be, if I say what's your favorite color, and you say blue, I might say, well, mine's pink. And so I'm listening in, and I'm sharing something, and that's fine. Listening out is about from their perspective. So in as my perspective, out is their perspective. So if you said my favorite color is blue,

I might probe and say, well, why is that your favorite color? Or what is it about blue that you like? And I'm so trying to understand more about your choice of blue. And so I'm listening outward and trying to get a deeper understanding from their perspective. Now listening intuitively is something that we do probably the least. And it's something that we we want to kind of be careful with because sometimes it could be like, you know, a little bit too much. Because what we're doing is we're listening with our eyes and our ears. We're picking up on things that aren't said. And when we talk to something they say, my favorite color is blue, you might say, I get the sense that you find blue really calming. And

just even as you said blue, I saw your body just relaxed. Does blue give you that sense of calm. And so we're checking our assumptions, but we're saying I'm picking up on something from you. I'm feeling something. And so when you listen intuitively, it's to share what you're getting, but also to check in that you're getting it right. So one of the conflicting things that I have in my mind as you're talking about this

is I learn a lot about negotiation and had to gain influence and all like interviewing all these experts. And Chris Voss came on my show and he was talking to me about the fact that when you are probing asking questions, he says that you actually shouldn't make it about yourself ever. So if somebody says my color's blue and you're like, oh, my blues, my favorite color too, or that you're not supposed to bring it back to being about yourself. And I've gotten this

feedback where like, I remember my ex-boyfriend used to be like, I can never say anything without you saying like you've done it too or like, you always relate it back to you and that can seem arrogant or like inconsiderate. So what are your thoughts on that like how do we balance. Being relatable and saying yeah I've done this to without making it all about you. I think it's a really interesting point I don't think it should be never bring it back to yourself because then what comes out is hey I don't know anything about you. And I don't feel comfortable with you because you weren't sharing and I shared and I was vulnerable and I gave you trust and you gave me nothing.

So now there's a difference between me just trying to connect and me trying to negotiate. So I'm gonna take the negotiation out of it because when you're negotiating, that's a whole different dynamic. But when we are just building a relationship, absolutely, it comes back to you at times. And that's what I mean by the dance.

So when we're in that anatomy of a conversation and we're in the phase of listening and you want to balance those options of listening probe to learn more, to do it from the listening out perspective and then sprinkle in the listening in, which is that commonality. And so it could be, oh, you know, I support an animal charity as well. Have you heard of straight from the heart or have you heard of homeless pets for something or? And so no, and then you could be, so what charity do you work with? So you bring in a little bit of, hey, this is mine and do we have that in common? No, okay, what's yours?

Have I heard of that? Tell me more about yours. And so you will create this balance where there is an exchange of information. Yeah, and I think it's important to know if you're more of like an overshare or a brager versus the opposite. So like, I am definitely on that spectrum of like, I like to tell people what I do and talk about it. And so I probably need to tone that down, whereas somebody who might not be as confident or might not ever share anything about themselves

and needs to tone that up. So very good points here. Okay, so let's dive deeper into this, listen intuitively concept. So it's not just about what we say. In your book, you say that the book silent messages says that 7% of somebody liking you is verbal. 38% is vocal and 55% is visual. This came from psychologist Albert Moravian who wrote silent messages. So again,

7% verbal, 38% vocal, 55% visual. And basically that means that the words that come out of our mouth have no impact or little impact on our likeability. And to me, it was really surprising to find out how much tone of voice had to do with everything. Like I didn't even think that was really effective. I've always heard like body language and things like that. So how do we keep our three Vs verbal, vocal, visual, and sync when trying to make a good impression? And why is that important? So let me explain the statistic a little bit more because a lot of times it gets misinterpreted

to the point where we say the words don't matter. Words matter, absolutely words matter. When there's incongruency between these three things, the words are useless. So it's about the congruency between your verbal vocal and visual. So if some teenager comes home and says everything is fine, those words are meaningless if they are like slumped over and everything's fine. We know it's not. And even if the voice sounds the same, the body language is what is going to be what's most believable, and then the voice and then the words. So first, it's a congruency. Second, it's for face-to-face communications. When we

are not face-to-face, now we're face-to-face, we have a visual component, even if we're not in person. With phone, the visual aspect does not disappear, even though you can't see them. The voice doubles, but the visual component is still there because if you think about it, you're visualizing where they are, what they're bought, like you can say, is somebody slumped back and I know if I go far from the mic, my voice will get far, so I won't slump. But if they're like this and they're really bored, we can pick up on, we can feel it in their voice. So the voice gives us a visual indication.

Okay, so when we think about verbal, vocal visual, how do we think about them? When I talk about verbal, I always say actionable, neutral, or positive language. And the reason that is is because our words influence us. And even in the way we say them, they will influence how somebody else responds to us. And then that response, and it starts to amplify itself. So, I never want you to think that words don't matter. They do. Word choice is so important, but it's the congruency of these things working together. Yeah. And I have to imagine that this also has to do with thinking positively, going back to what you're saying with being authentic. positively going back to what you're saying with being authentic. If your start is that you speak badly to yourself, you think negatively about yourself.

When show up in conversations and try to connect with people, I think they'll feel that energy that you feel these ways about yourself and they'll feel the unconfidence and the insecurities. And so it's so important to your point to start with loving yourself and being your own best friend Absolutely, and I'm thinking about hedging language. So that idea of Minimizing what's coming out of your mouth. It's words like well only just my opinion Simply I'm not sure but I was just sort of all of that

minimization that we put forth before we actually put our idea or our thought out there, says, well, I'm not sure you believe you, so why should I believe you? So when we think about all of this verbal vocal visual and what we're putting out there and the word choice, how you frame it to yourself matters. So for example, I have teenage boys. God help me, I have two kids in high school.

And I get a lot of like, I can't do this, or I'm not good at this. And those are conclusion-based statements. I want everyone out there right now to think about for the rest of today, as speak are your statements action-based or judgment-based. And so saying, I can't do this is a judgment. Saying, I haven't figured I had to do this yet is an action. It gives you momentum, it gives you the opening, the possibility for learning it for getting better. I'm not a good public speaker, judgment. I'm not a good public speaker yet, possibility, action, the idea that we can move on this. And now a quick break from our sponsors. Hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now, but in case you don't, that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide.

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That's masterclass.com-profiting for 15% off an annual membership. Masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off an annual membership masterclass.com slash profiting. I think that was a really great example. It really helped put it all together for me. So I feel like this is a perfect segue to getting to mood memory. This was one of the most fascinating concepts for me in your book. I had never heard of it before and so I'd love for you to break down this law and give us some key tips on how to make sure we leave every interaction with positive mood energy. This is the fourth phase of the anatomy of a conversation in the fourth chapter in that middle section of the book. So we were curious, we listened, we found some similarities, and then we get to the close of that

conversation. And that's where it could just kind of fall off the cliff if we don't have an awareness of mood memory. And mood memory is simply the idea that people remember far more how you made them feel than anything that you said. You walk away, and like, for example, when I met you, I met you at Marshall Goldsmith's book launch party. I don't remember what we talked about. I just remember how I felt and the impression that you made.

But I couldn't tell you what our conversation was really about. And so that's the idea behind Move Memory. How did you make someone feel? And do they feel like they want to be in your presence again? Or do they feel like they want to run screaming from you? And the funny thing is, I gave a little bit of a tell you this, but my husband told me that when we were just friends,

that I was really intense, and like he wanted to be like, whoa, you know, like literally like that. And like it was a shock to me because they asked me for business help. This is something I'm good at. So I dove in and I was like a machine gun trying to help them. And they were both like, oh no, this is too much. I'm in's business partner. So understanding how you make somebody feel and looking for a remember, so all these things

are intertwined. This is not a order. I do this one, then I do this one. All of these laws are interrelated and they enable each other. And so that listening with your eyes and your ears and listening intuitively and being flexible, being authentic, but adaptable to somebody else to enable them. You can see how these all come together

in that mood memory moment. So when you are closing a conversation down, make sure you're not dismissing. Make sure you're not starting to be like, yes, I'm done here, and mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, nice meeting you. And then we're moving on. Yeah, but think about, you know, in that last phase,

what your follow-up is, because the only way to get to the last half of the book, which is moving from conversation to connection, what we talk about familiarity and giving in patients and all that, is to find the follow-up. Because if you leave the conversation there, even if they feel good, if there's no follow-up, then it's gonna go, you know, want, want, want, yeah.

And I think people remember the beginning and the end mostly of conversations, not so much the middle, right? And so to your point, it's really, a lot of people start off great, you know, they got a smile, a head tilt, they're, you know, being there on their best behavior. And then to your point towards the end, you might just like get distracted and want to move on to the next thing quickly, but you got to remember to leave on a high note. What are their like really actionable tips?

Can you give us to to because this mood memory thing is I think really important. It's basically what your first impression was. For that meeting. Yeah, it's what's what walks away with you. And you're right. The attention curve looks like a smiley face. High at the beginning and high at the end, and it drops in the middle. Our goal in conversation in everything that we do

is to make it more like a wave. So we kind of have ups and downs in that attention curve. OK, so when we're thinking about mood memory, think about the things that make you feel good. What makes somebody feel good? It's, hey, they were interested in me. Hey, they were curious about me. Hey, we had something in common. Hey, they, they told me that they're going to follow up with this thing. Hey, they were going to introduce me to that person.

So as we think about finding that place that I could add value, that could be your follow-up. Remembering something specifically that they said or something that they wore Like sometimes on a back of a card. All right. Oh fun pink sweater with a cold shoulder Something to help or where they sat or something that they asked me or just to bring it back in that they feel listen to they feel heard They feel appreciated asking advice Even in a first meeting It could make somebody feel valuable and everybody wants to feel valuable. And so, it could be like, oh, you're from this area. We're visiting any great restaurants you'd recommend.

Oh, thank you. I'm going to let you know if we go there. And it's a light touch. It's a light follow-up, but it keeps you connected. Yeah. I love those steps. All right, so funny enough, you mentioned for my listeners who may not know, Michelle's actually one of my clients. I run her LinkedIn management, and I met her at another client events,

Marshall Goldsmith, and my last question for this section on likeability before we move on to your new book, Connectors Advantage, was something that I thought could tie it all together. So you met me, you liked me, you hired me. For something that you didn't even know you wanted, I think. I didn't want it. I wasn't looking for it. Yeah.

So let's talk about that interaction. I hadn't read your book at the time, but I did have some a little bit of training with all the experts that I've met in my life. So what made you like me? And maybe we can tie some of these themes together. The funny thing is, I don't remember a lot of the conversation. And that's what I said, which is what we talked about.

In the middle of the thing, you don't remember. I don't remember a lot of the conversation. I remember thinking you had confidence, so you had a strong self image, you were being authentic, you were bringing some of those laws of likeability, but you also shared your perception of me. I do remember you giving an indication of a fit, like you're the kind of person I wanna work with.

And so that's part of the mood memory. You made me feel good about me as if like, I don't feel the sway about everybody, you're special. Whether I was or not, it worked. Clearly, I'm your client. You are. So there was some of those elements,

and it didn't hurt that we were about the same height. And so, standing in a party with a lot of people and having somebody to talk to eye to eye makes you feel more connected. And so, for those people that are really tall or really short and you have this challenge where you're like this or it doesn't feel as connected. Finding a way to get on eye level with somebody physically makes you feel more connected. There's an impact to mood memory that body language piece that is just we don't even realize it. But that whole idea of mirroring part of mirroring is to make the body feel comfortable.

And so those things happened naturally for us. Yeah, and I feel like I could come up with a couple of other reasons, like kind of just reflecting for like he said, we're the same height. We're both from New Jersey. So familiarity, similarities, right? We both know Marshall. So we didn't talk about this yet. Maybe we can kind of touch on it. This third party referral, basically, even though he didn't, maybe he always touts me and things like that. But just a fact that I worked for Marshall

and I was at this party, probably influenced it to a degree. So talk to us about that. How do third parties who kind of support you or recommend you? How does that impact your likability? 92% of people trust like recommendations or referrals and you're four times more likely to buy when referred by somebody. So that's what Yelp and Amazon reviews and all those things are all about is having some validation that you're not alone in your thinking of something. But you're right, we were in a invite-only environment

of a community of people that was a trusted community. So just being in that community puts you at a place of open and willing to believe in the people who are in that space. So that helps. And that's the idea. There's a couple sub-laws in the book. The Law of Association is one of them.

And so within the Law of Familiarity, the Law of Association, it's that logic. If A, then B, if B, then C, then A, then C, then he trusts you, then I trust you. And so even without a referral, knowing who you worked for, who you worked with, and I think I shared with you, you work with somebody else from the MG100 Luke and I called Luke before and I said, hey, I just wanted before I signed on the dotted line, tell me what you think.

But so getting that validation, it's a transfer of trust. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to uphold such a great reputation and to treat all of your clients well because there'll be your biggest advocates for your business referring you and things like that. And when you're recommended from someone else, it means so much more than you just saying that you're good. You know, if somebody else says that you're good, that person's going to believe them more

than they'll believe you if you said the same thing. So really big points, great points to help us in our business. Let's in on these last few minutes, talk about your latest book, The Connectors Advantage. And Michelle, I think we're going to have you back on to dive super deep into this topic because this is like sort of the advanced course in networking. It goes one step further. It's a great continuation for anybody who has not read the 11 laws of likeability. I highly, highly recommend it.

And then once you read that, go on to read the connectors advantage. So Michelle, you call yourself a connection creator. And you start off the book saying that most people call you lucky. And you say, you're not lucky. You're just a connector. So talk to us about that. What is a connector in your own words? And why did you feel like you need to write an entire book about the topic?

I was so excited to write this book. My husband actually is like, you're writing another book. Why? And I was like, because I have something I have to say. And he's like, damn, that's a good answer. Because writing a book is not easy. But this is a follow up to the 11 Laws of Likeability. And it's because a connector somebody who prioritized the relationships in everything that they do.

And that's the most simple way I can put it is just prioritizing and putting relationships or somebody who prioritizes relationships in everything that they do. And that's the most simple way I can put it. It's just prioritizing and putting relationships first. And the advantage, right? So I talk about the connection's advantage. It's faster, easier, better. Whatever it is you're working on, you're going to get there faster, easier, and better. And that's why I tell that opening story of how I was working within five days of being laid

off without actually even looking for a job because it isn't about, oh, you're right. I mean, don't get me wrong. I believe that people have right time, right place, but I also believe people make the right time in the right place. And when you lay a foundation of connection and build relationships and you embody these laws of likeability and these mindsets of the connector, your network is there when you need it. Yeah.

I know that Jordan Harbinger, who's a mutual friend, he calls his network his job security insurance. He's just like, I'll never be out of a job because I have an incredible network and it's so true. So you actually say that there are a few different types of connectors based on my reading. It feels like connectors is basically a spectrum, starting from people who are non-connectors

to people who are super-connectors. I'm a super-connector. I think you're a super-connector. Tell us about the spectrum and where do you think people should be on the spectrum? That's an interesting question because I don't think anyone should be anywhere but what I want people to understand is you're already on it. There's very few people

that are non-connectors that don't believe in the value of relationships. I actually do have a coaching client who says, I don't believe in the value of relationships. And I was like, why did you hire me? But the truth is she doesn't really feel that way. It's very interesting, and I've been working with her for quite some time, and she's fabulous. But when we think about, and this is a really great way to tease up for the next time I come on, and I'm happy to come back, the connector spectrum starts with non-connector, but then it very quickly moves to emerging connector. An emerging connector, somebody who understands the value of relationships, but doesn't necessarily know how to really do it yet a

Responsive connector somebody who has a lot of incoming or even a little incoming. Hey, could you do this for me? Hey, could you introduce me this person and they respond with a yes? But they're not initiating it yet. So as we climb up the spectrum The greater the advantage becomes the faster the easier the better, right? The further up the spectrum. The greater the advantage becomes, the faster, the easier, the better, right? The further up the spectrum. So it depends on where you are, what you, you know, where you want to be and what your goals are of how far up you need to climb. I think getting to acting is a great place for anybody. The first lever to switch to get from, you know, responsive or emerging to acting is simply to be more initiative, to take more initiative by you coming up with who you can connect,

you coming up with how you can add value, you coming up with the ideas, and not just responding, but going in both directions. That's an acting connector. That's a great landing place for people to strive for. The upper echelons is pulling the other lever, and the other lever is depth and breadth. So when we go deep within an industry, within a geography, within a demography, within

a function, whatever it might be, when we go deep, that's a niche connector. My sister is the example I use in the book, everybody in New Jersey, real estate and real estate law knows my sister. She is not a lawyer, but she serves that market and runs the entire state and everybody in that industry knows her. And so that's a niche. Now she's starting to go broad. She's kind of becoming more than just a niche connector.

She's becoming a super connector and super connectors when we go broad. And that means I know people up and down the ladder across industry, across tomography, across geography. And if I cross my country's borders, I'm a global super connector or a global niche connector. So that's the spectrum. Now that you broke it down, I feel like I'm actually a niche connector. I'm probably in the podcasting and social world, but not necessarily so room to grow, which is good to know, because we're having you back on to talk about this, because there's way too much to cover in the last four minutes on just this books. We're going to have you back on Michelle. Go ahead.

Well, I'll tell you there is a quiz, a three minute quiz to figure out where you are right now. You'll put it in the show notes and it's a 10 quick questions to say, here's where I'm at. And here's what I might do to keep going. And I would venture to say, you might be a niche connector, but you are probably pretty close to being a super connector because it's not just who you know in your industry, but your clients brought in you. Oh, that's true.

I think I'm a, I might guess, actually, too. Exactly. You're right, you're right. I'm a super connector. What can I say? So Michelle, it's no wonder why you are one of Forbes top 25 networking experts in the world. Thank you so much for all your great wisdom today.

We always end the show with two last questions and we do something fun at the end of the year. So the first one is, what is one actionable thing my young and profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? Reach out to somebody. If you wanna make it even bigger, reach out to five people.

Today, send a note, send a text, comment on their profile, connect. Love it. And what is your secret to profiting in life? I can tell you the first thing that came to my mind is never be hungry. To understand that you have to choose what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to. And if you don't feel literally, you know, or figuratively hungry, you can really be very selective,

choose the clients and the engagements that are right for you, and that's where you will thrive. So you're saying like, be so established and have such a good foundation that you can choose what you want to do. That's really nice to, like, not everybody can just start there, but I started with that mentality.

I never started with desperate. I'm hungry. I need to say yes to anything and everything. I was always like, no, that's not a fit for me. So even at the beginning, get really clear on what you want to say yes to and what you should say no to. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Michelle. This is such a great conversation. I know we're out of time. Can't wait to have you back to talk about connectors and really dive deep on that. And thanks for coming on Young and Profiting Podcast.

Thanks for having me. What a great episode. The Connection Creator, Michelle Letterman, Yap fam. I'm totally obsessed with topics like likeability and networking because I think it's the secret weapon for our careers. Because when we do business, we do it through relationships. We select who we want to engage with, we select who we come back to for more, and the ability to make a real connection and make other people like you is such a big part of your success or failure in business. Harnessing likeability is all about uncovering what is authentically likeable in ourselves and in the people we want to connect with.

So when you're networking, do your best to recognize what's likeable about the other person as well as yourself. You can find out what's likeable about others by asking good questions. Ask others about themselves more than you talk about yourself. And then listen actively. People love to talk about themselves, and they like those who listen to them do it. When you ask people about themselves, try to rely on open-ended questions that start with what how or why, and avoid questions that people could just say yes or no to. What how or why questions prompt people to speak extensively about themselves?

So you get to learn about them. So for example, some good questions are, what do you do? What are you passionate about? How did you hear about this event? How do you guys know each other? Why did you choose this field of work? I suggest that you prepare some generic open-ended questions

the next time you have a networking event so you can practice this technique and get started off on the right foot. Once you get people talking, you're going to get information, which is like currency in a relationship. Then you can draw on your similarities, which makes you an ally to the other person. Some other things to keep in mind when you're networking with other people is establishing solid eye contact, smiling often, nodding to indicate your approval of what the other person says. And you can also ask for advice. That's another good way to affirm other people's value. And the last thing I'll say is people love compliments.

So keep it positive, compliment the other person sincerely when you can. It's important to keep in mind that networking is about wanting to connect with others. It's not about getting a result or an outcome or achieving some sort of goal. In fact, when a lot of people hear the word networking, they cringe. They have a negative reaction to it because they think it's a test. They think of it as manipulation or winning people over. And let's face it, if you think of networking as something that is transactional or something that helps you achieve a goal,

it's gonna feel like work, it's gonna feel like a chore, and it's gonna be hard to find the motivation to do it, and you won't be very good at it. So you need to lose that when people over transactional attitude and instead try to seek genuine relationships that have no ulterior motive. So don't think networking with people, think connecting with people instead.

After all, the only way to make yourself likable is by being honest and authentic, which leads me to the law of authenticity. Always be authentic young and profitors. Here's the thing, people can see right through phonies. To be likable, you have to exhibit your true self. And if you present yourself artificially, people are gonna tell, when you try to be something that you're not, you have to exhibit your true self. And if you present yourself artificially, people are gonna tell.

When you try to be something that you're not, you're gonna feel awkward and uncomfortable and what you feel inside will reflect on the outside. People won't like you and they will feel that something's off. So no matter the setting, show up as your true self. But here's the problem. If your true self is someone that you hate

or someone that you're not proud of, you're not gonna be liked either. So you also need a strong self image. Michelle's law of self image says that if your self image is consistently positive, you're going to attract other people's positive feelings. And if your self image is negative, it's going to be difficult to get others to feel good about you. So be kind to yourself, yeah, fam. Stop that negative self talk. And here's another homework assignment. I want you to sit down and write down your nice qualities. What do you like about yourself? Ask your friends and family for their opinions

on your best qualities if you're struggling to come up with a list. And if you have a hard time breaking the habit of negative self talk, I have a whole episode about that topic. It features Ethan Cross and its number 122 Harness your internal chatter. If you want to learn more about how to stop negative self-talk, you should check out that episode after you listen to this podcast. Well, young and profitors, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And if you learned something new today, do me a favor and write us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or or rating on Spotify or just drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform We're almost at a thousand reviews on Apple so I'm super thankful for everybody who's contributed

It's the number one way to thank me and everyone on the app team You guys can also find me on Instagram and tic-toc at yab with holla and we're also on YouTube if you like to watch podcasts You can find us there a special thank you to my production team and all their hard work to put on the show. I really appreciate you guys. This is your host, Hala Taha, signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben Podcast. My co-host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft.

That's me Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip

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