Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Molly Marquard: The Art of Negotiation, Boost Your Career With These Expert Negotiation Strategies | E234

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

When Molly Marquard first started her career, she didn’t know anything about negotiation. It wasn’t until she took a nonprofit job that she realized she was being alarmingly underpaid, even though she was a qualified hard worker. That’s when she created the Instagram account “negotiatethis.” Now, Molly shares what she has learned about workplace negotiation with a tight online community. In this episode, Molly will break down the key points from her Negotiation Handbook and what you can do before, during, and after any type of workplace negotiation. She will share her top secrets for negotiating salary and asking for a raise. She will also explain the new workplace rules.  Molly Marquard is a top career content writer and creator and a rising star in the negotiation space with her Instagram page and blog “negotiatethis.” Molly aims to normalize workplace negotiations and help people with their financial future and careers. In this episode, Hala and Molly will discuss:  - Normalizing negotiations - Keeping a journal of work wins - Why you always need an option B - How to stay calm and collected during a negotiation - Being ready for silence - Is quiet quitting for losers? - Navigating mass layoffs - And other topics… Molly Marquard is a career content creator, a writer, and the owner of negotiatethis. Molly is the one behind the scenes (the one obsessed with negotiation). She has posted about negotiation on her Instagram account @negotiatethis basically every day for the last couple of years & written a few dozen blog posts on negotiation & other career topics. Everything she consumes, she sees through the lens of how to help people negotiate or how to help them with their careers. Molly frequently blogs about negotiation, tips, strategies, and the workplace.  Resources Mentioned: Molly’s Website: https://negotiatethis.org/about/ Molly’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/negotiatethis/ Molly’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/negotiatethis/ Molly’s Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@negotiatethis Negotiation ‘Get It’ Guide: https://negotiatethis.org/product/negotiation-guide/  LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘podcast’ for 30% off at yapmedia.io/course. Sponsored By:  Shopify - Go to youngandprofiting.co/shopify to take your business to the next level Masterclass - Go to masterclass.com/profiting for 15% off an annual membership. The Kelly Roach Show - Listen to The Kelly Roach show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Constant Contact - Go to youngandprofiting.co/constantcontact_yap for your free trial today! More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Head to zbiotics.com-sash-profiting and use the code profiting at checkout to save 15% off. Young and profitors! Today, we're talking to Molly Markward, a career content creator Young Improfitters! Today, we're talking to Molly Markward, a career content creator and negotiation expert. In this episode, Molly and I unpacked her top tips for workplace negotiation, like how to stay calm and collected during a confrontation, had a research salary expectations, and had a prepare for hearing that dreaded two letter word, no. This episode was truly fascinating, you guys know that I love talking about negotiations

and psychology on YAP. And although this episode focuses on how to approach workplace negotiations as an employee, all of you entrepreneurs out there tuning in will definitely benefit from hearing how to facilitate better negotiations with your team members. Anyway, let's get into it, enjoy my conversation with Molly. Molly, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited for today's episode.

I love the topic of negotiation. Today on the show, we're joined by Molly Marquard. She's a top content writer and creator and a rising star in the negotiation space with her Instagram page and blog, Negotiate This. Molly aims to normalize workplace negotiations and help people with their financial future and careers. And that's exactly what today's episode is going to be focused on.

We're going to discuss the key points from Molly's negotiation handbook and what we can do before, during and after, any type of workplace negotiation. We'll also talk about her top secrets for negotiating salary and asking for a raise. And we'll learn how to merge negotiation with creativity and get a pulse on what Molly calls the new workplace rules. So Molly, I love negotiation content.

I've had many greats on the show, Chris Voss, Alex Carter, Robert Sheldini, to name a few. You have a specific niche, though, which is workplace negotiation. And I'm curious to understand how you first became passionate about this topic. Yeah. So I'm pretty passionate about workplace negotiation and salary negotiation, like you said. And it started out as a topic that I needed to learn about, just like they say, research is me search.

I first started out my career in the public sector. So there were already salary bands ready to go. I had just graduated. I didn't need to figure out, hey, I need to be making this or I need to be asking for this. It's education plus experience, pretty formulac response. So after that, a few years into my career, I transitioned to a nonprofit organization, and I was still doing public service work, but just in a different sector. And at that time, it didn't even cross my mind that I needed to negotiate. I thought that they were going to pay me for the experience that I brought, the valuable skills that I was bringing to the table, and I just didn't know it had never crossed my mind. So I was overqualified, underpaid, and that was just a situation.

And I learned actually from a colleague who came back from a meeting and said, I received this. I am definitely going to go back and negotiate. My eyes wide and my ears perked up. I was like, what? You can do that. So I was a little mystified that I didn't know that I could negotiate because I was doing good work. And I erroneously assumed that since it was a nonprofit and I was doing that service

work, that they were just going to pay me as much as they possibly could. So after I learned that I was so wrong, I figured out, it doesn't matter what sector you're in, it doesn't matter what your field is, you always have to advocate for yourself and to get compensated fairly. Whereas before I thought that they were just going to pay me because I was a very hard worker, I was experienced in the role, I had a specialized set of skills, I was a high performer, I was a very hard worker. I was experienced in the role. I had a specialized set of skills. I was a high performer. I was bringing X, Y, Z to the table. And I just thought that out of the goodness of their hearts

because it's the right thing to do that they were going to pay me fairly. And that is just not true. It's not how the world works. So I figured that since I didn't know that I was supposed to negotiate, that it was likely that other people didn't know this information as well. I was well into my career, you know, maybe five or six years in, and it had never crossed

my mind that I needed to do that. And I'm a pretty curious, diligent person. I check all the boxes as I'm entering a career. I was in the career center a lot in college my senior year like getting prepped for interviews knowing what to say. And it just never came up. So I was determined. I was a little bit angry at that moment figuring that out that I had missed out, honestly, at that time, on thousands of dollars, because I wasn't advocating for myself. I thought, you know what? I'm going to learn this skill. I'm going to teach other people who whoever wants to learn opened up

to negotiate this account and decided that whatever I learned, I'll go ahead and share that with the rest of the world so that none of us are left in the dust, not knowing how to negotiate. I love that. And it's so inspiring, you know, you had a problem yourself. You decided to help other people. Now you're growing this brand

and you're becoming an expert in the space. So let's talk about why people need to get over the fact that negotiating sounds scary, right? You're an advocate for normalizing negotiation. Can you explain why we've got to normalize negotiations in our everyday life? Yeah, and I think we're shifting the narrative as well. When I opened the account in 2020, I was looking for resources online, and I didn't think that anyone was really speaking to me. We talk about business negotiations. I mean, think about it on the movies. We see these, you know, buttoned up business people doing these high stakes,

scary negotiations. And that's probably where some of my perception came to. I thought, that's not me. I'm not going to do that. I'm about relationships. I'm a kind person. I'm a collaborative worker. But I think that we're really starting to change that narrative just from a lot of the content and information I've seen online on social media. A lot of people are just kind of tired of the status quo and being underpaid or not knowing the pay or the salary or just feeling so in the dark that you have to always learn the hard way. And I did it really feel like the resources that I found online were speaking to me. It was more of a, this is a business negotiation. And those types are different too, because a business negotiation, you have negotiators that are negotiating weekly or monthly.

And if you're in a career negotiation, you're likely not negotiating every month. It comes up every six months or once a year or when you transition to a new job. So it's, I think just naming that that it's okay to feel fearful, but it's also a muscle and a skill that we always have to work on. And I mean, you're always going to feel nerves and nervous, but you just can't not do it. That's not an option anymore. So yeah, normalizing negotiation and just breaking down and just naming it, hey, you're going to feel nervous. Your first negotiation probably won't go the way you want. Your second negotiation probably won't go perfectly.

And just kind of naming that. And that's how I came to it, too. I kind of fell on my face. My first negotiation, like, oh, okay, don't do this, this or this. Yeah. But now we have you, Molly. So we're not going to fall on our faces anymore with our negotiation. So let's talk about how to prepare for a workplace negotiation. And I love that this is from the perspective of like a regular employee that's not in sales, that doesn't negotiate every day. This is for everyone who wants to have a negotiation in the workplace. So before we even step in a room with our boss, tell us about what we need to prepare.

What do we need to do? I like how you phrased it, Hala. You said before you even step in the room with your boss because it depends on the scenario and what type of career negotiation it is because if you're starting a new job, of course, those are going to be your initial starting conversations, but there's still, of course, a lot of work that goes into that conversation. But then if we kind of transition to you're already in your career

and you're looking to negotiate in a position that you're already in because you've done excellent work or you're looking for a higher position or another factor that comes along, that negotiation also starts months before. I think we're getting away from this in the career world too, where there aren't such formalized annual reviews. It's a little bit more quarterly in some spaces,

it's more of an ongoing conversation than it used to be. It's not just this one very strict straightforward meeting. It's yes or no, are you going to get what you're asking for? But it starts months before where you're letting your superior know, hey, I'm looking for this increase or I'm looking for this position and just kind of putting a bug in their ear so that they know to be looking for that in you and also having the conversation of what do I need to be doing, what do I need to be checking the box off of what I need to be completing, async, excelling at in order to get there. It's knowing that information, it's making sure your superior knows, and it's also advocating for yourself on an ongoing basis. Make sure that your superior knows your accomplishments weekly, monthly, and I've had conversations

too that can be a little bit intimidating or daunting. And I understand that you want to have a great relationship with your boss or your supervisor, but that's not always the case in every situation. Sometimes you have one-on-one meetings every week or every couple of weeks. Maybe that's not as normalized. So you have to be creative in how you're making sure that your efforts and what you want is known. And I put out a few different examples like you could put it in a weekly email like, hey, here's what I've accomplished. And you don't hear a couple of challenges. It doesn't need to be like, hey, I'm so successful. This is what I've done every time.

But you know, it's just making sure that you're advocating for yourself in an ongoing basis. Because I think that's where we also feel a little bit sour in the career world, too, is when we see somebody who's maybe a mediocre performer and, you know, maybe we're a high performer or we just kick butt on this last project and then that person gets a very obvious raise or promotion. And there are no villains.

We don't need to create any terrible people in this situation, but is it because they're talking about their accomplishments, even if they are more minute than your accomplishments? So before you get there, especially if you're in your job, you're in your career, you want this known so that when you get in there, everybody knows. When you get in the negotiation, the conversation, everybody knows it's not a surprise that you're going to be asking for X because you've accomplished X, Y, and Z and your superior knows that. So if I can just replay this back for you, it's a knowing what your exact goal is. Do you want a promotion?

Do you want to raise? Do you want time off? What do you actually want? And then not just in the negotiation continually having checkpoints, whether it's through email or Slack or meetings with your boss, where you tell them, hey, here's the things that I've done that align to this thing that I want that you said I have to do X, Y, and Z to accomplish. And I've already done X, Y, and Z. And here are the challenges I see coming up. So it's basically continuing to remind them of what you want and why you deserve

it over time, right? How you're building up to that. So I think that's really smart. You also suggest to keep a journal of work wins. And I thought this was genius because a lot of us, we forget over time. I remember when I would be working in corporate, I'm an entrepreneur now, and I was working at HP and I was such a rock star by the time that like the my yearly review came like, I don't remember what I did eight months ago. It was great, but I don't remember it anymore. So I think that's brilliant. Tell us about this journal and the benefits of doing that. It goes along with advocating for yourself, making sure that your boss or superior knows what's going well in the workplace and also a reminder for yourself. So, it doesn't matter how you keep track of it, whatever's best for you.

And also, make sure that you have it externally so that if you transition your career, maybe you're let go, unfortunately, you have these to talk about as talking points as wins for you, whether you're in that same position or whether you're looking for another position, because it's not just isolated to your current position or your current career. Everything is transferable. So you want to make sure that you have those list of wins. And it's just an ongoing document in any form on a notebook in your phone, you know, on your notes app. Maybe you have an email folder that you keep track of that, and it can be anything. It's somebody, maybe a client saying, hey, you ace this project, maybe you received this

much revenue from Y deal or whatever you think of as a positive, and it doesn't need to be quantified, either. It can just be some very positive reviews that you've received. And keep a list of those. I mean, honestly, they help when you're not having a great day at work. I was going to say it's also like when you're not having a good day, you can pull that up. Yeah, you're like, hey, I kick ass. And as you said, Hala, hey, eight months when I'm having this very serious conversation about my compensation. I know exactly what I achieved. I know the exact numbers. And maybe you have a stakeholder. Maybe it was the head of IT who really congratulated you on this achievement that you got. And then you can name drop them in that meeting

to kind of pump up your ask. So I think having a lot of those details and having a list of work wins help you in your current career and everything we can transfer to another career as well. And I think what you're saying is really smart because you can add those bullets to your resume, the really, really important ones. If you're looking for a recommendation,

you can remember who likes your work and go back to them for a recommendation if you don't have a job. So this is all really, really smart. So let's talk about compensation research. So let's say we are negotiating a raise because we feel like we're underpaid. How should we go about doing compensation research that is accurate?

This is a great question because there's not, you know, one silver bullet answer. It's always fluctuating, it's changing. And this is the type of research that, of course, you want to do, if you're accepting a brand new offer, a brand new job, you're going to feel as confident as much as you have researched.

So research as much as you can have your list of accomplishments, your skills, what you bring to the table. So I can't emphasize that enough. That's going to reduce a lot of nerves. As many nerves as can be reduced in negotiation is how prepared you are. So accurate compensation research, I think the first most obvious item that we probably

all have done is Google salary for and then that position. And there are some sources that are a little bit more trustworthy than other sources. I won't name drop anything because it's always fluctuating. But those self-reported salary websites do know that they are self-reported by the employee and they're not vetted. So they aren't necessarily as accurate. They can give you an idea. So don't dismiss it. Just add it to your list of research. But don't just look on one salary website. Look on a handful. I think there are a dozen plus now. So really look at the different numbers and sometimes there's a range of like six figures and you're thinking, what am I looking at? So you have to take it with a grain of salt. And within those different websites too, you can look at your

region, look at your company size. Those are all going to be factors of the compensation information that's going to be important for you, your position. And also, you have to look internally. I mean, you're going to do research on yourself and you're going to say, hey, I have this much experience. I have these technical skills or I have this education. So you have to take that into account as well that these websites can't necessarily do. I would suggest also, I'm the LinkedIn queen, right? You could go on LinkedIn, search for titles, search for locations, even company size

if you have sales navigator, and then just ask people, be like, hey, I'm new in this industry or growing in my career, I wanna get a job title similar to yours in your city, wondering about what your salary is just so that I can be prepared when I'm negotiating. Do you think that's appropriate? Have you heard of people taking this type of a tactic? I think that is so appropriate. And I like LinkedIn as a resource as well for salary because we have places like New York City now. I mean, Colorado has been around for a couple of years where they have salary transparency laws. So you could type in the position

see if any companies are advertising there and get a pretty accurate salary range from LinkedIn. And as you said, first, I say look at some of those very broad compensation websites. And then second is start tapping real people. Connect, if you're at a job, start asking your colleagues, I have a whole freebie on how to ask your coworkers how much they make, because I did that because we just have to know.

We can't be in the dark about all of these things. And to your point, Hala, if you're not at a job, a lot of people's situation is they're jumping into new companies. If somebody messaged me, I think, didn't a genuine question wanting to know, hey, this is where I'm coming from. I'm wondering how much you make.

I'm wondering where you came from. What did you start out as? Do you think that this is appropriate or whatnot? You will be surprised. We all will be surprised how much people are willing to share. I don't think it's as big of a taboo as it was before. People want to see other people succeed. So even a cold reach out, a cold connection.

You know, if you feel like somebody's genuine and they want to really understand this process. Why are we hiding it? So I love that topic of just sharing and reaching out and asking people. And another tip that's pretty broadly shared is asking hiring managers, getting in touch with them. And I know that LinkedIn, you know, we have to be on a special a special plan in order to reach out and be able to connect with them. It's tricky. I'm not going to say that this is the hard and fast role, but get creative. I say that a lot with negotiation too. It's a creative process. Who do you know?

Who can you ask? That's the bottom line of negotiation too. Just ask. You are going to be so surprised what information you get, what you receive by just asking. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, most of you know that I started my LinkedIn secrets master class late last year. And it's going well, we're crushing it

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This is probably the most mind-blowing feature I've ever witnessed in terms of generative AI integration on a platform, and I'm really excited to see how this evolves. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting and that's all lowercase. You've got to type it in all lowercase for that to work. Go to Shopify.com-profiting to take your business to the next level today. Again, that's Shopify.com-profiting. This is all such great advice. So when we enter a negotiation, there's always a chance that we're going to get that word that we all dread,

which is no. And I've read from your blog and your other materials that we should rehearse counter offers to get ahead of this. So what's your best advice in terms of rehearsing these counter offers or preparing for counter offers? You said it, Hala, don't be afraid of no. Walk into the negotiation, almost expecting a no. Because that is also part of the game. And I mean, we don't need to call a negotiation a game, but you can think of it like that. It's people have roles that they have to play. And I think another caveat to that is it is personal

because it's your livelihood, it's your income. So it is a very personal process. But sometimes when you hear no, it's good to remember that that is not personal. And sometimes the person that you're negotiating with is that the hiring manager is that your supervisor, sometimes they are just trained to automatically say no, no matter what the first time by their superior. So walk in knowing that and expecting that because just like financial metrics in a company, not everybody can get a 10 to 20% increase. They have to moderate it so they have to say no.

And in the moment, there's a couple of ways you always want to be ready for a no. And personally preparing for a no, if you know that there might be a red flag that they could say no to you, for example, maybe you didn't complete the amount of projects that you needed to complete in that quarter, be prepared for them to maybe bring that up. You probably don't want to bring that up during your negotiation, but be prepared if you know that there's something that can potentially

hold you back and be ready to speak on it and also be ready to overcompensate for it in another area. For example, you know, I didn't complete these four projects, but I did take on five new clients and onboarded three new people. So the no doesn't have to be, oh, you can't receive what you're asking for, but you want to be prepared for it and have a talk track to respond to it. So this reminds me of a sales negotiation where you would basically write down all the reasons why they would object and then how you would respond to each objection. So the other thing that I read from your materials is having an option B prepared. Why is that important? Yeah, really important to have an option B

and this can vary because it depends on the context, the environment. It depends on the economy that day. It could be possible that they aren't able to meet the specific need that you want to meet. And you always have to assess that in the moment. The negotiation is subjective. Do you know that your company is struggling financially? Or is it like a hard and fast benefits rule all the way top down from HR that everybody has to have the same vacation or flexibility plan? There are some variables that just can't be moved at that time for whatever reason. that everybody has to have the same vacation or flexibility plan.

There are some variables that just can't be moved at that time for whatever reason. So you have to assess whether you kind of want to pursue that or move to your option B or like the other items that you want to negotiate. And I always say that doesn't have to be in the same conversation. You can leave the conversation unresolved. It is not your job to make sure that all of the boxes are checked that you end the conversation in a nice pretty bow. It's more on them to make sure that they say what they need to say. But you can leave that conversation unresolved and just say,

okay, I'll have to think about this. And you can go back to your flow chart and be like, well, since they can't meet me here, maybe I want to look at these other aspects that are important to me, or maybe it means that you stop and you make a plan with your supervisor. Okay, I'm looking for this in compensation. I understand that that's not possible right now and get information in that conversation. What is the possible timeline when we can revisit this and what considerations need to be met in order to receive this and you have that plan. You're writing notes, you have that plan written

now, you send it as an email receipt to your boss, you have a paper trail that you can come back to when they say, maybe we can revisit this in four months, if that's the plan you want to take, but you have this documented so that if it's truly not possible, which you are the judge of, there is a next step to it too. And I like that because truly not possible, which you are the judge of, there is a next step to it too. And I like that because, you know, when you hear a no, that's very emotional, right? So you've got your emotions running really high. And if you already know your option B like, hey, if they say no to this, I'm going to

ask for this or if they say no to this, I'm going to try to get a new job within the next two months. So you just have a fallback, you know, exactly what your decision is based on what happened. So we're going to go back to nose later. So you just have a fallback, you know exactly what your decision is based on what happened. So we're going to go back to nose later. First, I want to talk about what we should do during an interview. So like I just mentioned, negotiations are really stressful. So how can we stay calm and collected during a negotiation?

This comes beforehand as well. You want to walk in prepared. You know what you're going to ask for. It sounds a little comical to say, but some people are just like, I want more money or I want more vacation days. Okay, well, how much? How many? We haven't really thought that through or done the research behind it. So knowing exactly what you want, and it doesn't have to be all memorized in your head either. Walk in with the no pad with, you know, the different points or the different numbers that you're ready to say. And that can also be seen as you're ready to take notes about the process. It's not

just your cheat sheet. And we have a lot of these conversations online now too. So you can have your notes there and it's not that big of a deal. So, you want to just be as prepared as possible. And then, you know, before I have a negotiation, I listen to my favorite song, my pump-up, song, like I get in the mindset. And I have a list of these skills. Ready, my accomplishments with specific examples, just like a word or two ready, so that I know

that I will be talking about that. And another item that's important is how they align to the company goals. Is this aligned to what they need and want right now? It's not just a list of, this is everything positive ever that I've done in a year. No, these are strategic accomplishments that align directly to your corporate objectives for the year. So having those in mind and ready during the conversation and you asked a big one at the beginning or a little bit ago, Hala, you said be prepared for no. And one of my favorite tips in being prepared for no is just be ready for silence.

Take the power of pause. You do not have to fill in every gap. You can lay out what your piece is and give them time to respond. So I've been told no multiple times. And the first time that I was told no, no, we don't have this budget. I was a novice negotiator. And I quickly filled in the blank. And I said, Oh, I understand the budget's tight. I get it. It would really be helpful if you could get back to me when you know for sure.

So I quickly filled that in. I was a little apologetic. I was obviously more vulnerable. And I learned after the fact that they did have a budget, but it just wasn't going to be spent on me. I just did not show that I was confident enough for what I was asking for. In the next negotiation, I was ready. I was Confident enough for what I was asking for in the next negotiation. I was ready I was ready to walk I was ready for the no and you know, I said this is what I'm looking for and

They said you know, you know, the budget is really tight right now. I was so ready for it be ready for it and I didn't say anything. I just sat up straight, I was calm, I was confident, I knew my next options. I knew that my resume was going to be updated. I knew I was searching around on LinkedIn, so you're doing all of these items in the background. So during my pause, it got a little awkward, and it's not just awkward for you. It's also awkward for your supervisor, most likely, even though they have had more conversations like this as part of their job. But they filled in that gap. And they said, I'll see what I can do. It was the exact same conversation. The only difference was that I didn't fill that pause, and I was more prepared.

I was more confident, and I had my plan be ready. I was ready to walk. So being able to walk is leverage, and it is privilege too. And not everybody has that option, which I also like to know in the content that I make. Not everybody is in that space. So your walk away item, that could be different. That could just be you're going to update your resume. That doesn't mean that you need to quit tomorrow, or it may mean that you're making that plan with your supervisor. So there's a lot of different ways and it's

situational, too, of how the meeting goes. So there's a couple things that you said that I just want to highlight and just call out for my listeners. First off, preparation builds confidence, right? When you're preparing for this negotiation, you write down all your achievements, you write down the company objectives, you write down what you want, you write down what your responses to objections are going to be all the sudden, you have a map and an outline of this conversation You are so much more prepared than your manager You are just off the bat gonna feel a lot more confident than if you didn't prepare any of that stuff

So I love that and then since you brought up nose again and silence silence is such a tool that you can use in human behavior in general Silence signifies authority, power, confidence, and professionalism even. So you being quiet after getting a know, gives them space to give you information, and then you have more, even if they don't say, like you had a situation where they're like, I'll see what I can do.

They sort of turn to know into a maybe, right? Whereas other people might just explain why, and then now you have their objection, and then you can go into your Rebuttal right so you can get the information the other thing that I've learned from Chris Voss is when you get a No, you can mirror them right you can mirror so can you talk to us about that? Yeah, I love that topic too of mirroring Chris Voss says that it's the last three to five words of their sentence and negotiation is about especially career negotiation

and in your job getting hired. It's about relationships. And it's about the people that you're negotiating within your career, compared to other types of negotiation. You're going to be around them likely for long term. And they're going to be a deciding factor for you in a lot of different areas. So having a strong or just positive relationship with the person that you're negotiating with is a big deal. And mirroring taps into that

a little bit where you're showing that you understand them because you're repeating verbatim what they say, like the last small phrase at the end of their word and the research that he goes into is the study was you're at a restaurant and there were two case studies. One set of waiters gave the people ordering food positive compliments, like, oh, I'm ordering the mashed potatoes and gravy. Oh, that's such a great choice. So one set did give positive compliments. The second set of waiters just repeated verbatim what they ordered. And the waiters that got the higher tips were the people who said exactly what the patrons wanted to order. So it's really a psychological trick. And I know that you love to dive into the psychology of things and I think that's why I like negotiation a lot too. It's not just about

career or money or you know other factors. It's about psychology and understanding people and relating with people and showing them that you understand where they're coming from. So, for example, in a negotiation, mirroring in the situation that I gave an example of could be, I understand that the budget is tight. So using the exact phrase of my supervisor and then responding with positives that I bring to the table. And I've contributed 10 bring to the table.

And I've contributed 10% to the gross profit of this year. So you're not saying, but you're not kind of dismissing what they say. You gave them a pause and you're mirroring what they say because it shows that you understand where they're coming from. They might be in a tough, tight position too. We don't really know other people's shoes or situation. Even if it's our supervisor, they have a lot more knowledge than we do, but just showing somebody that you understand can go a long ways. And I love that quick tip of mirroring. Yeah. And I like how you said to not use the word but say and so you don't look like you're on the opposition that you're just showcasing what you were good at, what you

accomplished. The other thing that's important is to ask questions in the right way. And so another tip from Chris Voss is to avoid why questions and instead ask how and what questions. What's your perspective on that? Oh, I mean, he's the master. So of course I follow that to a tee. So why questions are accusatory?

Like why can't we make this work? Why he says goes to when we're a child and you know our parent will say, well, why did you do that? We still feel that sort of guilt and accusing tone when we hear the why. So just steer clear of the why question. He references saying asking what and how questions and other negotiation experts focus on that as well because they're collaborative questions.

We're building a relationship. We're building a plan and you can also insert we. That can go along with what and how, how can we make this work? What sort of a plan can we come up with together to get to this goal and you make it a collaborative effort because honestly it is. And I think that we've waken up to that idea a little bit more just in the past five, 10 years,

that your career, your job, it's a collaboration for you to do good work. Your boss wants you to do good work. Your company wants you to be successful, so it really is a collaboration. And so it makes people feel part of the process when you're asking those what and how questions. And it goes back to the relationship. You're always forming a relationship, especially in career negotiations.

And so you could say something like, how do we proceed from here? What does my feature look like at this company or something along those lines? So like you said, it's collaborative, it's not a accusatory. We're not using why words. So another question that I have for you on nose is does a no mean we failed our negotiation? No. I love that. No, I mean, we brought it up a little bit before, but you should expect no. You know, they talk about in sales how if you're not receiving a little bit of a challenge, it might mean that you're not really going to be getting what you're asking for.

So it's okay to expect a little bit of a challenge and to expect a no in my experience. And a lot of people's negotiation expertise comes from their experience. So rely on what you've experienced. And I've experienced a no in maybe half of my negotiations. And if whether you know how to handle it and pivot from it, and if you're prepared for a no, and no can mean a new opportunity, if you really didn't get what you wanted and you have a salty

taste in your mouth and you don't believe your employer, you're on to your next step. What is that next step? This is awesome, awesome advice. And it's so true. No, like you said, can meet a new opportunity. No oftentimes also means maybe because people feel safe to say no, right? A lot of the times, like you said, it's no is like a knee jerk reaction because it's the first thing they were trained to do. Or they just say no because it's the easiest thing for them to do rather than figure out

how to problem solve whatever you're bringing up. So always remember that no oftentimes really just means maybe or not now, right? So I love that. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Young and profitors, let's face it, we are not getting any younger, and after a night out, it can be hard to bounce back the next day. I used to have to make a choice, either have a great night or have a great next day, but then I found Z-Biotics.

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about everything or the other party like your manager might get frustrated with you if they feel like your ask is unwarranted. So how can we like defuse any type of emotion or anger specifically in a negotiation? I'll relate back to my experience. When I figured out that I was underpaid and that I didn't negotiate and I knew I could negotiate, I was really angry. There's a lot of advice out there that says you need to be neutral in your negotiation. And I think we need to pair that also

with you can feel emotion. Don't dismiss your emotion. Your emotion is what is going to drive you to ask to really advocate for yourself and to get what you want. So leverage your emotion. So I leveraged my anger by asking my colleagues, hey, you know, my fear dissipated. I wasn't afraid to talk about money, to talk about salary. And I say, hey, what are you making? I leveraged that emotion into asking people, researching,

and just feeling confident. So whatever you're feeling, if you're feeling sad, upset, sit with it, don't dismiss it and use it to your advantage when you're in a negotiation. I mean, the tried and true advice, be neutral. You don't want to show that you're upset or angry, but you don't necessarily have to hide it. I think you can be confident. And if you're not super happy or positive, you can be serious to convey that this is a serious ask for you and you're coming from a place of truness. So I think just keeping that in check, you of course don't want to have an outburst, you don't want your counterpart to have an outburst. And if that's the case, I think that that's more on the supervisor or the person that's if they have an unsavory reaction to the request, I think that it just pauses right there. And it doesn't have to get figured out in that moment. You can say, let's come back to this at another time and not continue with it because everybody needs to take a moment

to think about the request where it's coming from and just take some time to cool off and then come back with some more succinct talking points from both sides. So if it's on you, leverage your emotion so that you can use it to your advantage in your negotiation and be confident and cool and calm and neutral in your negotiation. If it's coming from the other side, you've already prepared your case. You didn't just say, Hey, $25,000 on top of this. No explanation. You've already stated why you're deserving, your accomplishments, how they align. So you don't have to do anything else in that situation. You just want to kind of step away and workplaces can be complicated too. So it doesn't just have to be with that person.

If you need another stakeholder in the room next time, or if you just need to go to somebody else, then do that. Maybe that's not the best person who you need to be speaking to. So you really have to assess the situation and what's best for you and your future. This is all such great advice. I definitely agree. And you alluded to it before, walk away. You can always just take a breather, tell everyone, you know what, we need some time.

If you feel, personally, if I feel like I'm getting upset in a work conversation, I will just say, hey, I feel like I just need to think about things, need to clear my head. Let's revisit this. That way, I don't ever look unprofessional. So I think that's a really smart move and knowing when to walk away.

And understanding that not everything has to be resolved in this one meeting. It can happen over time. And especially with these workplace negotiations, this is often going to take multiple interactions before you actually get what you want. So as we close out this interview, I want to talk about a few hot topics, just things that are in the news, things like that. And let's talk about quiet quitting. So this was especially hot last year. I'm not even sure if it's that much of a hot topic anymore, but I've talked about it a lot on my podcast.

And a lot of my guests happen to be entrepreneurs like me and they're on the spectrum or perspective that quiet quitting is sort of for losers. That really only losers quiet quit. You got to be productive. If you want to thrive, survive, get promoted, get recognized. You actually have to go above and beyond. You can't just do what you're asked.

And so most of my guests that come on the show are usually against people who are quiet quitters. But then I read your blog and you're kinda just like, hey, they've got a point here. So I'd love to hear your perspective on this. Yeah, to respond to your first part of it, I definitely think what quitting has cooled down with just the hiring market right now and mass layoffs. And it is always a fluctuation. I mean, there's not one trending term that continues because we are such in such a volatile economic and

can use because we are such in such a volatile economic and career time of the century. You know, has it ever been this up and down? One time we're in a pandemic, everybody's laid off, then we've got the highest hiring in decades, the highest profits. And then we have mass layoffs again. So it's really up and down. So I would say that quite quitting has cooled off a lot. I haven't seen it hit the news, but to kind of backtrack to what the conversation was

in October and November, it was largely a talking point in 2022. I think that if a topic is ever getting that much attention, you need to stop and see where it's coming from. I'll take on the perspective of the employee, and I think it's stemming from not receiving what they feel like they should receive. And I think that that's coming from a few decades

of watching the workplace, how it's evolving, watching inflation increase. So I think that there are all of these other factors. And I think not seeing your paycheck rise to match inflation, seeing the person next to you get promoted, even though you're working hard, I think it's coming after a long time of frustration and not being rewarded in the way that people feel like they should be rewarded for the work that they're doing. And we can even talk about minimum wage. That's a huge topic. I mean, are we rewarding people that work minimum wage as they should be rewarded? So it's not just kind of these white collar conversations. It can be all in a lot of different sectors. But I think just kind of understanding where people are coming from and maybe they're quite quitting at work, but you know, they have like three side hustles on the side.

And I often heard workers are just lazy. They don't want to work anymore, right? And I think if we revert to saying somebody is lazy ever, it means that we need to do a little bit more homework We need to dig into the topic a little bit more. Okay. Why are they quote-unquote lazy? There's research that says our our paychecks are not nearly where they should be with the inflation rates Just kind of digging into it a little bit more. Are they getting the accolades that they deserve? So I think really unpacking some of those topics into the employee and how they're feeling.

And also we saw employees weave in 2021 and 2022 because they were like, hey, you know, I'm going to ask for this raise, they heard a no. So then they jumped ship and they went to another company, you know, they two times they're salary. So if you're not feeling like you're appreciated, then that's going to be a natural response. And I think that we're coming to a really big conversation in our careers because after quiet quitting, we heard of quiet firing.

And companies have been doing some shady stuff for a long time. And I think employees are kind of hitting back. So I think that these conversations are fascinating. I love to weigh in on them. I love to look at the employee experience. And they're just so nuanced. It's not, oh, it's only this reason. I mean, there's just so much to it. It was a long winded. It's okay. It was very interesting. And what's really interesting about what you're saying is this up and down of the economy, the hiring economy, I guess.

And now we're in layoff season, right? Tech companies are laying off people left and right, I think, at Microsoft. Did a whole bunch of layoffs pretty recently? And so I'd love to understand your perspective about layoffs and also advice to people who may have gotten laid off. Yeah, and I think that the reverse of quiet quitting, I wouldn't say anybody like, don't work hard. You want a work hard for yourself to get the skills that you want to and you also want to work hard, you know, if you're trying to get to that next level, it's hard to walk into a negotiation and be like, hey, I was a pretty mediocre performer. Can I receive this? So being a hard worker or, you know,

having highly valued skills, I mean, they don't necessarily have to go hand in hand, but I mean, that's when you want to walk into a negotiation and you can feel confident in the work that you've done. So I wouldn't say that quiet quitting necessarily connects to all the negotiation conversation. You have to choose. Yeah, you have to choose which one you want. Is it worth it for you to just hang back? You feel like the system isn't working for you. So yeah, of course, maybe you're going to be a quiet quitter.

But on to mass layoffs, there's always a tug of war, a push and pull. And I take on the experience of the employee and mass layoffs pretty ruthless in the perspective of the employee. For the business perspective, it's a savvy business endeavor. A lot of these layoffs seemed just from the news perception,

seems like they were just kind of cutting some extra personnel that they had. It didn't necessarily seem like the company was going to be doomed. So it was just kind of a frivolous mass layoff at trending mass layoffs, which is unnerving or an employee. So over decades, I think that employee trust and their employer has been waning.

And that's why all of these kind of trendy topics of quiet quitting, quiet firing. There's this tug of war between the employee and the employer is taking place. Employees aren't loyal anymore. How can employees be loyal if, you know, you cut thousands of them in an email when they've worked for your company for 20 years, you know?

It's so nuanced because you used to stay at a company for 20 years. You had your pension, you had your retirement, and now we're just not seeing that. We've created a very individualistic kind of a corporate and work environment in our country in the past few decades where it's every employee for themselves and companies have kind of made it that way. So, hmm, I think that everybody needs to be prepared and just from the employee perspective, if that takes place. And I think that you would say this too with LinkedIn. Your LinkedIn is always top notch. It is up to date.

You are connecting with the people you need to connect with. You're always ready for that in a negotiation or in your career. You're always ready for walking away. Or now, you're always ready or as ready as you can be to be laid off. So you just have to, I guess, roll with it and be as ready as you can be to be laid off. So you just have to, I guess, roll with it and be as prepared as you can be. Yeah, and I would say, I was in the corporate world

now I'm an entrepreneur. One of the reasons why I'm such an advocate for entrepreneurship and side-houses is because it really does give you agency and control of your life. And I made the mistake in my early 20s, really aligning myself and aligning my identity with a company and a brand. Like when I worked at Hot 97, the radio

station, I was hollow from Hot 97. When I worked at HP, I was like president of the Young Employee Network. I couldn't imagine my life not being at HP. And then as I got older, I stopped doing that. And I was investing in myself. And when I was at Disney, I grew this brand, this podcast, and now I'm an entrepreneur. And I feel so much safer because I have gotten, for example, I got fired from my job at hot 97 for doing nothing for asking for minimum wage. It's a long story. We don't have to get into it. I was basically an intern for three years.

And I remember feeling devastated because I had attached my entire identity to a company. So all this to say, be loyal to yourself. That's number one, be loyal to yourself to your point, your skills, your achievements, even at your company. They're a transferable asset to take to your next company. So make sure you prioritize yourself, your loyal to yourself, you ask and stand up for yourself. As you close out the interview, any last words, especially for those who may be looking for a job right now. I love what you said, Holla. Be loyal to yourself.

You're in a job. You're getting the skills that you want because they are important to you. And you know, sometimes we don't have complete control over that, but as much as you can, get brushed up on the skills that you want, and lean on your expertise. Lean on your accomplishments. Always know what you bring to the table because it's a lot. I mean, it doesn't matter if you are just out of high school, just out of college, you have experience, you have a special set of skills that are valuable, so be confident in your skills because they're unique. Yeah, and I love the fact that you brought up skills, because guys,

skills is everything. Get those skills, get the experiences in your work, even above what you're asked to do, go out of your way to find other things that you can learn at your job and take advantage to the full potential of your job. Okay, so two questions that we end the show with. The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? Well, can I say negotiate or just ask? Just put your stuff out there. Ask for things that you would normally ask. I just saw this funny TikTok where somebody was going to a basketball game and they had the nosebleed seats and then they asked if they could have court side seats and they got it just because they went up to customer

service and asked. We talked about it in relationship building a little bit asking people, hey, how much do you make? Just ask. I think that you'll be so surprised by what you get. I love that. I think that's really great advice. Even, you know, that's reminded me of if you are getting a new job and they give you a salary, just ask for a little bit more. Don't be one of those people that don't even ask for anything more. You should always ask for more. Okay. What is your secret to profiting in life? I think being curious and generous and persistent. And I feel like that's what we do on social media a lot too. We're curious about the world, about other people, or about a specific topic. So we want to share that.

I feel like we're generous and just sharing content. You have a ton of free content. That's what social media is. You share your knowledge. So I feel like that goes a long way and you have to show up every day and be persistent. That doesn't necessarily mean monetarily per se, but I think that it'll pay off in a lot of different ways. I completely agree. And where can our listeners find more about you and everything that you do? Yeah, you can check out, negotiate this.org, and I'm also on Instagram and TikTok at NegotiateThis.

Awesome, Molly, such a great interview, so many valuable tips. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me, Hala. This is great. I'm really happy that Molly came on the show because we've had a lot of negotiation experts on in the past, but this is the first time we really dug into workplace specific negotiations from an employee perspective. I want to emphasize that workplace negotiations start months in advance, unless you're

preparing to negotiate at a brand new job. You want to let your superiors know that you plan on negotiating with them, whether that's for a raise, promotion, or extra vacation time. And when you bring this to their attention, ask them what you need to do to earn what you're asking for. During the time leading up to the negotiation, you want to update your superiors on your accomplishments and how they align with your goals, whether that's sending them by weekly emails, updating them over Slack, or touching base with them during meetings. Make sure they know that

you're making strides to earn what you're asking for. One way to keep track of your accomplishments is to keep a journal of work wins. This will give you concrete proof of your wins that you can use to pump up your ask when the time comes. And this also comes in handy when you're doubting your capabilities or dealing with imposter syndrome. And also when you have to update your resume later on, you'll know those bullet points on hand. You also want to spend the time leading up to the negotiation, preparing for a no. Do as much research as possible on salary expectations and how your goals align with your company's goals. And you also want to have a plan be

prepared, whether that's updating your resume, looking for a new job, or coming up with a counter offer to pitch during your negotiation. You'll feel more calm and confident knowing that you're prepared if the negotiation doesn't go exactly how you want it to. And if you do hear a no, don't feel pressured to fill in the silence. You never know when a no can turn into a maybe, but if you immediately respond to the no and just close out the conversation, you may miss out on that golden opportunity. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. If you listened learned and profited from this episode, be sure to share it with your friends and

family and drop us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you like watching your podcast episodes as opposed to listening, you can check us out on YouTube. And you can also find me on Instagram at Yappathala and Threads now at YappwithHala, as well as LinkedIn by searching my name, Hala Taha. Big shout out to my amazing and hardworking Yapp team you guys are absolutely crushing it behind the scenes. Thank you so much for all you do. This is your host, Holla Taha, AKA the podcast princess, signing off. you