Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Seth Godin talks Marketing and Creativity | YAPClassic

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Are you thinking about starting your own business, but the thought of marketing freaks you out? Are you nervous that your brand won’t reach as many people as you’d hoped? Have you been facing blocks in your creative flow? Stay tuned - Seth Godin can help you navigate these worries!  Seth is an entrepreneur, speaker, and author of 20 bestselling books. He is arguably the internet’s most famous blogger. His daily blog boasts 8,500 posts and more than 1,000,000 readers.  In this episode of YAP Classic, Hala asks Seth about his latest book, The Practice, which outlines how to unlock the most creative version of yourself. They discuss how to embrace imposter syndrome and move past writer’s block. He also gives several valuable marketing tips for beginning entrepreneurs like building the smallest viable audience, telling meaningful stories, and prioritizing permission-based marketing.  Topics Include: - Seth’s career failures - Enjoying imposter syndrome  - Permission-based marketing  - Is the internet a mass medium?  - Targeting the smallest viable audience  - How did Starbucks, Facebook, and Twitter become successful?  - What storytelling REALLY is  - Creating a brand story  - Maintaining trust with your audience - Don’t just chase clicks!  - Personalization vs. permission-based marketing  - The problem with buying followers  - Why Seth wrote The Practice  - What is a leader?  - What is art, according to Seth?  - Creativity as a practice  - Writer’s block does not exist  - Don’t try to sell your hobby!  - And other topics… Seth Godin is an author, entrepreneur, and teacher. He is the author of one of the most popular blogs in the world and has written 20 bestselling books. He has given five TED Talks and hosted eight Udemy courses. He is the creator of altMBA, a leadership workshop with over 5,000 graduates. Seth has founded two companies: Squidoo and Yoyodyne, which was acquired by Yahoo! for $30 million. He also built The Carbon Almanac, a reference book consisting of hundreds of writers, researchers, thinkers, and illustrators that are aiming to develop a common foundation for moving forward.  Resources Mentioned: Seth’s Blog: https://seths.blog/  Seth’s Website: https://www.sethgodin.com/  Seth’s Books: https://seths.store/  altMBA Workshop: https://altmba.com/  Seth’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethgodin/  Seth’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sethgodin/?hl=en  Seth’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/ThisIsSethsBlog?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Seth’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sethgodin/ More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review -  ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Join Hala's LinkedIn Masterclass - yapmedia.io/course

Today on Yap, we're resurfacing my interview with the legendary marketer, Seth Godin. Seth Godin is an entrepreneur, marketer, speaker, educator, and author of 20 best-selling books. This interview touches on his most recent release, The Practice, Shipping Creative Work. Cess in the Marketing Hall of Fame, the Guerrilla Marketing Hall of Fame, and the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame. Needless to say, he's one of the world's most respected marketer. Tune into this episode to learn the definition of permission-based marketing, understand how to approach creativity as a professional, and discover why being generous with your ideas is key to your success.

Without further ado, here's my classic interview with one of the top marketers of our generation, Seth Godin. You are about to put out your 20th book. It's called The Practice. You've wrote 19 other bestsellers. You had a founding company, which was sold to Yahoo for $30 million. You were inducted into the direct marketing hall of fame. You've educated millions of people worldwide with your courses. So you have so many different accolades.

You are, you know, world famous author, very impressive guy. And some of my listeners may think, you know, Seth, 19 bestselling books, 30-something year career. He's just been hitting home runs this whole time. But I know, because I'm a fan of your work, that really it's been based on a lot of failures. And, you know, you've stepped to your success by stepping on your failures. So tell us about, you know, your career journey, what it took to get to where you are today. And some of the things that people may not know in terms of the failures that you've had along the way. Well, you know, we can play failure Olympics games all day long.

It's interesting to think about why we need to do that. You know, so I got 800 rejection letters. in a row after I sold my first book for $5,000. I have gone window shopping in restaurants for years at a time and gone home and had macaroni and cheese. I could go on and on. I have failed definitely more than anybody who's listening to this because I'm older than most of you. But why is it even interesting? And the reason it's interesting is because when we're in our work, it's tempting to say it's not worth it unless it works. We become attached to the outcome. And as soon as you become attached to the outcome, you start really getting angry at the people

who don't get the joke, who aren't into it. You get frustrated when you are rejected because you take it personally. But no one is rejecting you. No one knows you. No one cares about you. They're rejecting your work. They're rejecting what you thought to produce. And you can learn from that. It's a gift. And so if you ask me, what would I change about all those failures? The answer nothing because I ended up being who I am because of all the stuff that didn't work, things that I worked on for years. You know, the book that took me the most time to write sold the fewest copies. And there's just no rhythm to the universe other than if we do generous work without hustling people and we show up in a way that's generous where we say, maybe they don't get the joke,

but I made it anyway, we do better work. And it's actually. actually more likely to work. Something, I want to touch on your new book. It's called The Practice. So we're going to get into all of that. We're going to talk about focusing on the process rather than the outcome like you just mentioned. But something that I read in your book that I want to touch on early in this conversation is the fact that you feel like you've been an imposter and that you suffer from imposter syndrome.

And then actually, when you feel like an imposter, you believe that it's when you're doing your best work. So tell us about that feeling because you're going. you've done so many things. You've jumped into so many different lanes in your career. So tell us about how you feel comfortable with starting something new and get over this feeling of imposter syndrome. So to be clear, I don't suffer from imposter syndrome. I enjoy imposter syndrome. And they're different. Lots of people think they're the only ones who have imposter syndrome. That that feeling of being a fraud, of not being qualified, of what right do I have to be up here is unique. It's not unique. It's only shared by people.

people who are doing important work. It's only shared by people who are leading. Because leading is an act of being an imposter. You're announcing the truth before it happens. Hey, we're going to Cleveland. Do you want to come? You're not sure you're going to make it to Cleveland. You're just going to try. Hey, I'm a comedian. Oh, that means you think tonight's performance is going to be funny. Have you done it before to these people? No. Then how do you know you're being an imposter? Imposter syndrome is a symptom that you're about to try to make things better and you're not sure. And when it shows up,

it's tempting to make it want to go away. But you can't make it go away. You can instead welcome it and say, oh, thanks for reminding me. I'm on to something. Thanks for reminding me. I'm about to do something generous. So, yeah, that feeling of being an imposter,

it only shows up if I'm having a good day. I love that. I think that's a great thing for our listeners to keep in mind as they tackle new things, especially women, because I think a lot of women really suffer from imposter syndrome. So before we get into the book, I definitely want to get some foundational knowledge out to my listeners. A lot of my listeners are not in marketing, and so, you know, they don't have some of the foundational basics. One of the things that you coined,

or pioneered, I should say, is permission-based marketing. So tell us a little bit about permission-based marketing, what that is, and how the world worked in terms of marketing in the 1990s before you put out this concept to the world? First, your listeners are all in marketing. They just don't know it. Marketing is what we do when we interact with the market. So if you show up anywhere with anything, you're a marketer. Marketing isn't hype and it's not advertising. So yeah, I did coin the term permission marketing. I'm in the Oxford English Dictionary for coining it. Permission marketing is anticipated, personal, and relevant messages that people want to get. It is the opposite of spam and the opposite of hustle. And the simple test is this. If you didn't

show up on Insta or you didn't send out that email blast, would people reach out and say, where are you? Because if they're not missing you when you're gone, then you're not doing permission marketing. It has nothing to do with your privacy policy, has nothing to do with opt in or opt out. It has to do with, would they miss you if you were gone? And people say to me, well, yeah, but I sell insurance. No one wants to hear from me. And I say, so sell something else, that in a world where attention is so precious and scarce, just because you can steal my attention doesn't mean you have a right to steal my attention. You know, attention and trust go hand in hand. And what we need is not more attention. We need more trust. A couple times a day,

I get an email from somebody that goes something like this. I love your podcast. I've listened to lots of episodes. I would like to be a guest on your podcast. Here's why I should be on your podcast. Well, they are just writing to a list because I've done 140 episodes and I've never had one guest, not one. They're spamming me.

And I would not miss them if they were gone. I want them to be gone. And now I don't trust them because they've already lied to me. And so the opportunity we have now that all of us have a megaphone, all of us are connected to anyone who wants to connect with us

is to make promises and keep them, is to show up with anticipated personal and relevant messages to people who want to get them. And when I started my blog, I had 50 readers. And when I started my podcast, I had seven listeners. That's the way they all start. And then the question is, will people tell their friends? So let's touch on that trust piece a little bit.

How do we get our audience to start to trust us? And how do we know when our content may be, relevant to them. Okay, so I will start with the second part first. Relevant. The internet is not a mass medium. Television is a mass medium. It used to be back when you were a kid that the typical television show reached 40 million people. Now there is nothing on the internet that reaches 40 million people at the same time. Nothing. What the difference is, is that there's 40 million channels that each reach 100 people. So it reaches more people. It's micro. It is not mass. So finding people who are interested in what you're doing isn't that hard because they're already grouping up by what they're

interested in. But then the question is how do you earn their trust, not their attention, but their trust. And part of the problem is we've been indoctrinated, indoctrinated into believing that people who look like us or who match certain tropes are smarter or wiser or richer or better than we are. We've been indoctrinated into thinking we're not allowed to speak up or that people who don't look like us are somehow inferior. So getting the benefit of the doubt is really important. And people like me who grew up with privilege, who grew up with so many advantages, got the benefit of the doubt when we didn't deserve it. And lots of people who deserve the benefit of the doubt aren't getting it. And so we must begin by making small promises and keeping them, making them for

people who are open to being able to trust us, not hustling people and showing up with giant flat belly diet, instant overnight, let's change everything promises, but small people, small groups of people, the smallest viable audience, show up and say, I'm going to offer you this and then do it, and then do it, and then do it. And then do it. and then overdo it. And if you do that, they learn to expect it from you. That is what a brand is. A brand is an expectation, not a logo. And so you have this opportunity because everyone starts with almost nothing. Everyone starts small. Who will you start with? And how can you do something with and for that person that they will tell the others? Yeah. Let's stick into that concept of a smallest,

viable audience. I know it's something that you talk often about. Tell our listeners what that means exactly and how they can recruit a smallest viable audience. Well, you know, when you think about the name of your podcast and stuff, there is a conditioning that the only way to win is to win, win, win, that you want the biggest possible audience. That if you listen to the hype and you read the business plans and, you know, I'm going to crush this and we're going to revolutionize that. But that's never. Never. how it actually works. The way it works is you find the smallest group of people

who, if they trusted you, it would be enough. And then you overwhelm them with delight. Because if you overwhelm that small group with delight, which you can do because they all want the same thing, they will tell the others. So name any brand you want, and I will tell you how they did that. Because Starbucks or Supreme or JetBlue, I don't care which one you name.

That's how they did it. The smallest group that could sustain them, and then they delighted them. Even Google, even Facebook. Facebook started serving 100 people. 100 Harvard students who needed a date. That was Facebook. That's all it was for.

It didn't talk about what was happening in New Haven, and they didn't talk about what was happening in the election. They talked about you're at Harvard and you need a date. Smallest, viable audience. Could you tell us the use case of Starbucks and how they use that to grow? So Howard Schultz did not start Starbucks. Starbucks had two or three stores in Seattle, and you could not buy a cup of coffee there. They would only sell you beans.

And Howard went to Italy, and when he came back, he had fallen in love with standing at the counter and drinking an espresso. And he couldn't find a place in the United States where he could do that. And he persuaded the people at Starbucks to give him a time. chance. And so Starbucks began, really began, with one place in one little corner of one city where you could stand there and have an espresso. That's all it was for. And then the word began to spread and it began to spread. But it happened slowly compared to internet time. But Howard did not come back from Italy saying, I'm going to revolutionize the United States and caffeinate 100 million people a day. He came back and said, I need there to be a neighborhood espresso bar.

Now, do you have an example of when a company maybe went too wide and failed because they were targeting too broad of an audience? Well, you know, there's a semi-famous one from Silicon Valley, a startup called Colors, that raised $40 million before they even launched. And they launched a giant kind of social networky thing. And it lasted. lasted 15 minutes and went away. Because if it's for everyone, it's for no one. And, you know, if we go down the list of the giant web failures, you know, whether it's web van, which was going to be the next Amazon, they launched with a lot of fanfare,

and then they disappear. If we think about Twitter, Twitter failed and failed and failed for a long time, until they optimized it for one conference in Austin, Texas, to make 500 people. delighted. That's all. That's all it was for. And it's hard to do this as an entrepreneur or a small business person because you think, not that's too small for me, but you think if I pick the specific people and I fail at that, then I'm really bad, right? That if no one had come to Howard Schultz's one and only espresso bar, he's toast, right? If people at Austin, South by Southwest, hadn't used Twitter, they were going to go bankrupt.

You've got to pick something and put yourself on the hook because being on the hook is exactly where you want to be. Yeah, totally. And if you spread yourself too thin, you can't really maximize anything because it's like you're trying to chase two rabbits. You'll never catch either one as that old ad age goes. Well said, yes. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. At YAP, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence.

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Rules and restrictions apply. So another foundational marketing topic I want to cover is stories. So we all know that stories are really important. It's how humans learn. Humans are just like addicted to stories. So tell us more about why we're so addicted to hearing stories, why we learn so well by hearing stories, and how we can tell compelling stories. So stories are the oldest human technology.

Let me ask you a question. When you were growing up, did someone in your house make Nestle's Toll House cookies, chocolate chip cookies? Yeah. So if you smelled that smell right now, how would it make you feel? Hungry. Hungry, but also loved, right? That smell is a story. That smell reminds us of something very complicated. It reminds us of home. It reminds us of being seen. It reminds us of possibility. just to smell. That's what a story is. A story isn't once upon a time and happily ever after. A story is a set of hints and shortcuts and innuendo and rhyming that gets us to an emotional place. So the story we were talking about Facebook before, the story of Facebook is people are talking about you behind your back. Do you want to hear what they're saying? That's their story. And so every time

people see that Facebook UI shop, they go, Uh-oh, I wonder what they're saying, and they have to go look. And then they solve their problem, and about a minute later, they go, have they said anything new? And then they go, look, that is the story of Facebook. And so you've got to figure out which basic human emotion are you trying to tap into with the story of what you're doing. And being inconsistent and erratic means that people are going to trust you less. being blurry because you want the biggest possible audience means that you're probably going to mess up.

So I'll give you one more example. 40 years ago, Coca-Cola, for reasons that we can get into it if you want, but aren't that interesting, changed the formula. And they launched new Coke. And new Coke, in every taste test, tasted better than Coke. It was the biggest marketing failure in the history of the United States. Why did it fail? It failed because the story of Coke is,

this is what your mom served you for breakfast. The story of Coke is this is stable. This is us. This is tradition. You can't put the word new in front of the word Coke. They don't go together, right? The reason people are drinking it is because it's old Coke. It's a classic, yeah.

And so changing the story is what costs them a billion dollars. Yeah. So do you suggest that when somebody's coming out with a product or service that they should create a brand story? And how would somebody go about that? You're creating a brand story whether you want to or not. So you might as well do it on purpose.

And I think different people have different approaches to doing things on purpose. I interviewed Diane von Furstenberg a bunch of years ago. She was functionally illiterate in her ability to talk about how she did things. She was unable to tell you or me

why one dress was better than another. She did not have words for her good taste. She just did it. And there are other people who have lots of words to describe how they're going to approach something. I would put myself in that category because the words, A, are a useful boundary. And B, they help me teach other people what I'm doing. And so it really helps to be able to say, this is like that, except this way. So this is the equivalent of chocolate chip cookies, but it's a car.

That helps me understand how to design something. So let's look at Tesla. The Tesla Model S tells a story, which is, if you bought a Mercedes because you thought you were smart and taken care of your family, now you feel stupid because this is that car that you should have bought. And as soon as a Mercedes driver in California saw the Model S, totally mooned their day.

Because now they were driving the wrong car and they had to go solve their problem. That's the design of the Model S. So then they decide to come out with that pickup truck and they blew it because Elon lost discipline. What should the pickup truck have looked like? Well, who buys a pickup truck? Why is the Ford F-150 the single most popular vehicle in America?

Why do pickup trucks keep looking like pickup trucks? Because the story we tell ourselves, if we're going to be the kind of person who buys a pickup truck, is this is utility, I'm not trying to stand out, I am just a hardworking fellow or a woman who's trying to do their best. That's a pickup truck. So when you make the cyber truck look like that weird thing that was carved out of a piece of whatever, they blew it.

That's not the story of a pickup truck. What they should have done is built the most boring Ford F-150 knockoff ever, but with just enough of a twist that it says, I'm the kind of person who buys a pickup truck, but I'm smarter than you. That was the opportunity, and they missed it because they didn't understand story. Yeah. So I'm hearing a couple things here. One of the things that I'm hearing is that it's not enough to just, like, create your own story.

You kind of have to align to the stories and the beliefs that are already out there, right? Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Okay, so a couple more general marketing questions before we move on to the main topic of the show, which is your new book, The Practice. What do you think that marketers are doing wrong today in 2020? If you could call out a few things that marketers do wrong today, what would they be?

Yeah, it hasn't changed in my whole life. Selfish, short-term, narcissistic, lying, cheating, short-cutting, profit-seeking. That's what they're doing wrong. Anytime you do any of those things, you're burning trust. And marketing is a race to earn and preserve trust. because we live in a low trust, low attention world. And if you can earn and maintain trust, then everything else takes care of itself.

I see a lot of that in like the paid acquisition space, especially, like Facebook ads, YouTube ads, Google ads. They just care about the clicks and things like that. But a lot of them are really generating a lot of revenue and profiting off of this. But are you saying that that's really like short-sighted? Well, so I've been doing this online thing now for 30 years. And every time I do an interview like this,

someone brings up a shortcut or a hustle that someone's doing that's working. What about listicles? Why aren't you having troll fights on your blog? What are you doing about ads on MySpace and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And every time I say, the people who were doing that two years ago, where are they now? And they're gone. It's not sustainable.

There's always going to be someone who profits from racing to the bottom. Always. It's always going to be someone who can out hustle you, always. And then they'll be gone. And, you know, have you ever gotten any of that spam that says, I know the prints of whoever? And if you click on this, you'll get $40 million, right? Yeah. Have you noticed it's filled with typos and stuff? It's really poorly written. These people are making millions of dollars. You think they could have hire a copy editor and make it grammatically correct, right?

Why is it filled with typos and read so stupid? Well, the answer is simple. Because if smart people answer their emails, they won't be able to afford to keep up with everybody who ultimately will not give them money. The purpose of the first email is to attract the stupid people, because only the stupid people are the ones where they're going to be able to rip off.

And the same thing is true of the people who are seeking clicks on Facebook and Google for this kind of hustle, which is they need to come off this way, because people like you and me would never click on it, and they don't want to pay for us. They're just trying to get people who are looking for a get-rich-quick scheme. And people who sell get-rich-quick schemes don't get-rich-quick. Yeah. So I know that we talked earlier, one of the first questions I asked was, you know, the definition of permission marketing and what that means.

So I think we're all clear on that. How has that evolved? Because I know now everybody's just talking about like personalization. Is that really the same as permission marketing, or is it different? Oh, it's totally different. So, you know, when I wrote the book, I did not realize how much pressure would be on marketers to become spammers. And, you know, the amount of spam I got as an email user in 2000 was four a day. And now I get 400 a day.

And some of them from like banks and reputable organizations, they've socially acceptable. It doesn't work, but at least you don't get fired, they think. Personalization is different than personal. personalization is something you do to somebody. You buy some mailing list, you do a mail merge, you throw some data points in there, you pretend you're a data miner. That doesn't work.

It worked for a little while because it tricked people, but it didn't earn trust. People don't want personalized stuff. They want personal stuff. They don't want email. They want me-mail. And so when you show up and pull some stunt, it says, welcome back, Mr. X,

we know that you like this drink and we turned your bed down this way and we did that. that's not personal. That's personalized. But if you pay your people well enough that they stick with you and I come back and I remember the person and they remember me, now I'm sticking with your institution because you're sticking with me. They're different. Yeah, I think that totally makes sense. So how do you feel about like direct message automation and things like that?

So I'm sure you see that where on LinkedIn and Instagram people, like they've got these tools and they can plug in first name and make it seem like it's personal. I've used it and people honestly believe it because I don't think a lot of people really know what's going on and what's available. So right now I think people can still get away with it seeming, at least the first message seeming like it's authentic. So how do you feel about these kind of like automation tools? Do you just like not suggest them at all or do you think that there's a place for them in marketing? Right. So it's not that they don't realize it. It's that they don't realize it yet. And again, we're getting back to the fact that if you're in a hurry and you keep taking shortcuts,

you're always going to be on the first step. On the other hand, in the same amount of time, it takes you to do 10 shortcuts and be on the first step. You can do 10 long cuts and be somewhere else. And it's this stepwise process of earning trust, of being missed if you were gone. After you've done that, if you want to use personalization, it's fine with me. but that's not the secret, right? So when I go back to Amazon.com, it knows my name. That's not why I'm going back.

I'm going back because, you know, 1,200 orders later, they haven't ripped me off. They haven't screwed me over. If they make a mistake, they give me my money back. That's why I trust them. And so the personalization is just a tiny little frosting. They're not in the personalization business. They're in the promise business.

Yeah. And I'll just ask people, Why are you doing this in the first place? There are better ways to make a living than hustling around hoping no one notices that you're using technology, right? That you should do things that really benefit people that you get paid for fairly so that you can do it again. Totally. And also because it's more financially like viable to do that. Because if you're always just kind of starting from scratch and tricking people to download or click, you have no retention, you know, and you have no real following or subscribers.

And that's why I find a lot of like clients and people that I know, like they do paid ads for their YouTube channel or podcast. And then, you know, on a daily basis, they have no views, no downloads. And they look silly when they put out an episode when it has zero. And then their other video has like a million views, you know. They have no real audience. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend who was obsessed with how many Instagram followers she had.

She had 800 followers. And one day she said, I have to go negative. And I said, what does it mean to go negative? And she said, well, I have to follow more people than are following me because there's interesting people, but I feel terrible because I don't want to look like I'm out of balance. So for her birthday, I bought her 15,000 Instagram followers. And like it made a dinghs sound every time she got one.

This was in the old days. And so she's just sitting there goes, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And she immediately knew it was me, right? What kind of followers do you get for $149, right? They're not real people. They're not real, yeah. So what was the purpose? It's just the story we tell ourselves.

Why don't we just instead tell ourselves the story that I'd like to be of service? Exactly, exactly. It's way better to grow organically, have a real community, grow it from the ground up and have that trust and just build it organically than it is to just pay for the visibility. I totally agree. So let's talk about your new book, The Practice. From my understanding, you're talking about the process of creativity. and that is what the practice says. Can you explain to us really what this title, the practice means

and why you decided to write this book? So the subtitle is Shipping Creative Work. So I would ask people, are you in the business of shipping creative work? Are you rewarded for showing up in the marketplace with something new, something that hasn't been done before, something generous, something that might make a difference? If you're not, this book will be of no help whatsoever.

and I think you need to find a new job as well. Because if you're not, you're going to get replaced by a computer or be outsourced. But if you are, where are all the books teaching us how to ship creative work? Right? There are books that teach us how to build bridges and there are books that teach us how to do SEO. But the core of what we do all day is ship creative work. How? Just when you feel like it?

When you're in the flow, when you have, when you're in the mood, when you feel like being authentic, which is a term I hate, right? No. You need a practice. You need a method. You need a way to be a professional to show up and show up and show up and do work you're proud of. And so the practice is not about how do you hustle the market to move up on some ranking. It is, in fact, about forgetting about measuring the outcome and focus instead on the pattern, on the process.

Learn to trust yourself so that you can do the work you want to do. I'm going to quote something that I read in your book. You say, the industrial system we all live in is outcome-based. It's about guaranteed productivity in exchange for soul-numbing, predicted labor. But if we choose to look for it, there's a different journey available to us. This is the path followed by those who seek change who want to make things better. So tell us, what is the problem about focusing on outcomes and what's really the alternative there? You know, if you watch a two-year-old fall and skin their knee, they'll quickly look up to see if any adults saw them. And if an adult saw them, they'll cry and look, right? And if no adults saw them, they'll just move on because the audience changes the experience. And the thing about creative work is we don't have an audience until we've had the experience. The audience doesn't show up until we've made it. So the question is, after we've made it, should the first person who gives us feedback decide if we get to do it again?

What about the eighth person? That if you are working super hard on your play or you're a stand-up or if you've designed a user interface, is it all worthless if the first person who sees it didn't get the joke? Maybe they just are the wrong person. Maybe you learned a lot doing this with the right speech. and the feedback you get about why it didn't work will help you do it better next time. But the thing is, we shouldn't judge our practice only on did we get an A. That's not what it's for. It's for the journey and our ability to get better next time.

Most podcasts, every podcast, I'm guessing your podcast, how many people listen to the first episode? Ten? Right? How did that? Why did you keep going? Everyone hated it. Seven billion people did not listen to your podcast. Yeah.

Was your first podcast that much worse than your 10th one? No. No. But over time, people told other people. To change the culture means to go first, to help people become uncomfortable, to turn on lights. We don't know what the audience is going to do. We don't own them. Their response is up to them.

Our work is to guess who they are, what they need, and then learn from what works and what doesn't. But we have to have a practice to get there. I love that. So let's get into some definitions, because I think they're important. What is your definition of a leader? So leaders are imposters and frauds.

And the reason that they are is they're doing something that might not work. They're doing something where there is no manual. They're announcing in advance what's going to happen, even though they can't prove it's going to happen. And so when you feel that way, you should know that you're on to something. And leaders are different than managers.

Managers tell people what to do with authority. Managers are important. You can't have fast food without a fast food manager. Managers demand certain results and they know it is possible. Leaders, that's voluntary. Voluntary to lead, voluntary to follow. And leaders show up with a different posture and a different point of view. So leaders basically, they don't necessarily know.

know what the outcome will be. They can't. Yeah. They're envisioning the future and trying to bring people along that journey, and that's what makes them a leader. They're not told what to do. They don't know exactly what's going to happen. That's why they're leaders.

Correct. How about art? What is your definition of art? So I wish I had a better word. And if you could help me with this holiday, I'd appreciate it. I think we can all agree that Jackson Pollock was an artist. We can all agree that Frida Callow was an artist. We can all agree that Marcel Dushel.

Trump was an artist. But wait a minute. What about William Shakespeare? He was definitely an artist, and so was Neil Gaiman, right? So it might be art painting, it might be writing, but you can also be an artist as an architect. And I think you can be an artist as a child's therapist, showing up with a kid who hasn't been able to engage with someone, and you got them to engage. So I need to say art is what happens when a human being does something generous that might not work designed to change somebody else. That's my definition of art. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Happy New Year, Yap, gang. I just love the unique energy of the new year. It's all about fresh starts. And fresh starts not only feel possible, but also feel encouraged. And if you've been

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Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash profiting. Go to Shopify.com slash profiting. That's Shopify.com slash profiting. Yeah, fam, hear your first. This new year with Shopify by your side. Young and Profiters. I know there's so many people tuning in right now that end their workday wondering why certain

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And the Working Genius Framework helps you identify what you're actually built for and the work that you're not. Now, let me tell you a story. Before I uncovered my working genius, which is galvanizing and invention, so I like to rally people and I like to invent new things, I used to be really shameful and had a lot of guilt around the fact that I didn't like enablement, which is one of my working frustrations. So I actually don't like to support people one-on-one. I don't like it when people slow me down. I don't like handholding.

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Hello, young improfitors. Running my own business has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. But I won't lie to you. In those early days of setting it up, I feel like I was jumping on a cliff with no parachute. I'm not really good at that. of stuff. I'm really good at marketing, sales, growing a business, offers. But I had so many questions and zero idea where to find the answers when it came to starting an official business.

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Northwest Registered Agent is where you should go. Don't wait and protect your privacy, build your brand, and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwest registeredagent.com slash yapfrey and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwest registered agent. At northwest registered agent.com slash yapfrey. I thought it was really interesting that you kept talking about generosity in your book in relation to being a creative, being an artist, being a leader. Tell us about how generosity interplays with all of this.

Okay, so there are two ways to get at this. The first way is this. If I have $6 and I have $6. and I give you $3 generously, I don't have it anymore. You have it. So if I give it out to everybody, I'm broke. But if I have an idea and I give it to you, I still have it. In fact, the more people have my idea, the more it's worth. And so the world has changed from the scarcity mindset of, I don't have it anymore, to the abundant mindset of connection. Connection creates value. So that's one reason to be generous. We live in that world now. And the second reason to be generous is because a lot of

people are trained correctly to not want to take or steal or hustle or just put stuff out there that they're not proud of. And so we hold back. We hold back our good idea. But imagine that you're standing on the boardwalk in Venice Beach or something and someone is drowning a couple of feet away from you. Will you jump in and save them? Or will you say, well, I can't be sure I can save them? Will you say someone else here might be more qualified than me? Will you say, I'll just hide? Well, I'm guessing you would jump in and save them.

I try. Because you're generous. And that makes it way easier to do our art. If we realize we're not doing our art for links or clicks or money, we're doing our art because the other person will benefit. suddenly it's selfish to hold it back. It's generous to say, here, I made this. And that's an extraordinary opportunity in a great way to hack your brain and get out of your own way, to trust yourself. Yeah. And I think this relates a lot to shipping your work and the importance of actually

delivering, sharing your work. Tell us about that and maybe some of the reasons why people hold back when it comes to shipping their work. Well, if you don't ship it, you can't get criticized. right? If you don't ship it, there's no defects. If you don't ship it, you get to tell people you're still working on it. I know someone has been working on his new business idea for 34 years. And he keeps telling me, soon, soon, I'm still working on it. It's so safe. If you ship it, it might not work. If you ship it, people might look at it and say, you're not going to amount to anything. But if you don't ship it, you're not being generous. And so I think it doesn't count if you don't ship it. It's not art if no one else sees it. Yeah, and it's not

throwing you're not throwing enough and if you don't throw enough you're not going to get anything that catches. Exactly. Right? Exactly right. Okay. Let's talk about writer's block because from my understanding, you believe that writer's block does not exist. So tell us why you believe that's true. And I know that you have an example with Aretha Franklin in the book that may relate that my listeners might find interesting. Okay. So writer's block is real and it doesn't exist. Uh, What people actually have is fear of bad writing. That if you show me all of your bad writing, you will prove to me you don't have writer's block.

But you're holding back from writing anything because you're afraid something bad will show up. And the most successful artists I know get through this by having a lot of bad writing, a bad, a lot of bad painting, a lot of bad symphonies, a lot of bad SEO, a lot of bad, whatever it is you do. Because if you do enough not so good stuff,

some good stuff will slip through. And so good taste involves knowing the difference between the two. But you're not blocked. You're just afraid. And no one gets talkers block. No one gets plumbers block. No one gets jugglers block.

There's no such thing as writer's block. In the book, I tell the story of Aretha Franklin's purse. Is that what you're asking about? Yes. So the great Aretha Franklin, If you look at any of the videos of her online performing live, what you will notice is that in the piano is her handbag. And it's because when she was coming up in the 60s artists, particularly black artists, particularly black women, got stiffed a lot. They didn't get paid.

So she developed the habit of getting paid before she walked on stage. If you didn't hand her the cash, she didn't walk on stage. And then she kept that in her purse. the whole time. This is part of the reason I think she died without a will, but that's a whole other discussion. The interesting thing about it is that Aretha understood that she was able to do her craft. She could have made it her hobby,

but she made it her profession. And by making it her profession, she said, yeah, I'll show up at 8 o'clock. I'll show up at 8 o'clock. You show up with a piano and a bag full of cash. And we can make that transaction. and then in that moment, you will get the best version of Aretha Franklin

that is available to me that day. Not the authentic Aretha. She might not have felt like playing that day. Doesn't matter. She's a professional. Here's the piano. Here's the bag of cash. Play the piano.

And that's what it means to be a professional on top of many other things, is we make a promise and we keep it. Yeah. So sticking on the professional aspect of everything, a lot of times when people think of creatives, to think it's a hobby, you know, I'm an artist, I paint, I sculpture, whatever. It might not make money.

It could make money. Why do we have to think of ourselves as professionals when we're, you know, being creative and being a creative? You don't. You can be, I love hobbies. I have hobbies. Just don't get confused. Don't try to sell your hobby. Don't try to make your hobby something that makes other people happy.

Don't expect that your hobby is going to pay your rent. It's your hobby. Don't ruin it. Do not ruin your hobby. Just because the Internet is filled with people who are trying to make money from your hobby, doesn't mean you have to. Like, I have lots of hobbies

that I don't make any money from. And, you know, I love listening to jazz. I have a decent stereo. And I wrote a column for an audio magazine. And I wouldn't take a penny from Paul. Because the minute I got a dollar to write a column on music, I would be a professional music critic.

Not me. That's my hobby. And on the other hand, I don't show up and give a talk to a company for fun. It's my job. And I don't care what kind of mood I'm in when I get hired to give a gig. I show up as Seth Godin. And Seth Godin is playing a role. And that role is that person who's giving that talk.

That's what a professional does. And you should pick. Got it. And the last question that I ask all my guests on the show is what is your secret to profiting in life? Words matter. And I think getting really clear about what the word profit means is super important. After I sold my company to Yahoo, Bill Gross, the great entrepreneur, was putting together a company that was just a few months away from going public. And Stephen Spielberg was on the board. It was a big deal. And he called me up and asked if I would be the vice president.

in a marketing of this company. And he offered me a billion dollars in stock options. And I turned him down because I needed to be with my family. I needed to have my life. And I got to tell you, once you turn down a billion dollars, it gets easy to be really clear about what profit means. Because profit is not more clicks, profit is not more likes, and profit is not more money.

Profit is deciding what's important to you and going and doing that and not playing somebody else's game just because it's easy to measure. I love that. That's beautiful. And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? 7,000 blog posts at s.blog, s-t-h-h-s-th-s dot blog. You can meet about the book at shth.blog slash the practice and our workshops, including the alt-M-B-A or at kimbo.com, akambo.c.com.

Awesome. We are going to stick all of those links in the show notes. Seth, you are a legend. I am so happy we had you on the show. I'm going to promote the heck out of this episode. I can't wait to put it out. I'm going to bump you up in front of some other people and get this episode out as soon as possible

or to align with your book. We'll figure it out. But thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. You're great at this. It was really a pleasure. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much.