Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Chris Voss on Advanced Negotiation, The Secret to Gaining Influence and Winning Negotiations | Sales

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Prior to 2008, Chris Voss was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI and the FBI’s hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council’s Hostage Working Group. Now, he’s using his wisdom to teach business leaders how to negotiate and land deals. In this episode of YAPClassic, Chris will explain several advanced negotiation techniques, like how to conduct an accusation audit and what words we want to hear when negotiating. He will also break down how we can use tactical empathy to diffuse negativity in tense situations.  Chris Voss is a former FBI Hostage Negotiator. He is the founder and principal of The Black Swan Group, a consulting firm that provides training and advises Fortune 500 companies through complex negotiations. Voss has taught for many business schools and has used his many years of experience in international crises and high-stakes negotiations to help people become better negotiators in their everyday lives.  In this episode, Hala and Chris will discuss: - Why you shouldn’t match other people’s energy - The unknown benefits of positivity in a negotiation - Why you need to do a gratitude exercise in the morning - How to diffuse negativity in a negotiation - The differences between empathy, sympathy, and agreement - “That’s right” vs. “you’re right” - The problem with sympathy - Why you want to hear the word ‘no’ during a negotiation - How to conduct an accusations audit - The 7-38-55 body language rule - And other topics…  Chris Voss is a Former FBI Hostage Negotiator and the CEO of The Black Swan Group Ltd. Before becoming the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator, Christopher served as the lead Crisis Negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI. During Chris’s 24-year tenure with the Bureau, he was trained in the art of negotiation by not only the FBI, but also Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School. He is also a recipient of the Attorney General’s Award for Excellence in Law Enforcement and the FBI Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service. LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘podcast’ for 30% off at yapmedia.io/course. Resources Mentioned: Chris’s Website: https://www.blackswanltd.com/our-team/chris-voss Chris’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophervoss/ Chris’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thefbinegotiator/ Chris’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChrisVossNegotiation/ Sign up for Chris’s newsletter: Text "black swan method" to 33777. Sponsored By:  Shopify - Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at youngandprofiting.co/shopify Green Chef - Go to GreenChef.com/60yap and use code 60yap to get 60% off plus free shipping Indeed - Claim your $75 credit now at indeed.com/profiting More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/

Young and profitors. Negotiation is part of everyday life. Whether you're asking your boss for a raise, seeking investors, or just trying to get your spouse to do the dishes, we are all constantly negotiating in life. And today's episode is going to teach you the ins and outs of the successful negotiation. That's right, we're dusting off my third interview with Chris Voss, the world's top negotiation expert. Prior to 2008, Chris was the lead international kidnapping negotiations. for the FBI, and now he's using his wisdom to teach business leaders how to negotiate effectively

in land deals. Chris Boss has been on Yap a whopping five times. He's been on the show more than any other guests because he always brings the value. In today's episode, Chris will explain several advanced negotiation techniques like how to conduct an accusation audit and we'll learn what words we want to hear when negotiating. He'll also break down how we can use tactical empathy to diffused negativity intense situations. Without further delay, here's my interview with the legendary Chris Voss. Hi, Chris. Welcome to Young Improfiting Podcasts. Super excited to have you here today. I'm flattered to be on. It's my pleasure. So let's start off with energy. It's really important. Just understanding the energy of the room, understanding the energy of your opponent, what should we look for

in terms of the energy of the people that we're trying to negotiate with? And then how do we, use that information to be better at negotiation? So if you stop and think and perceive and sort of add it up, if they've got energy, the energy is really going to be a dead giveaway as to what they have in mind. You know, are they distracted? Are they focused on you? Is there a good vibe? If they're distracted, they're not looking to make a deal or something's in the way.

There are other pressures. They're probably not going to make the deal. if they have an aggressive energy towards you, which a lot of people might misinterpret as being bad. The good news is they're looking to make a deal. So aggression is a good thing from a counterpart in that it signals their intent to deal with you. The flip side of that is,

I don't believe in matching people's energy because that makes you the second mover. And when I was teaching negotiation, To illustrate this point, you know, we used to play Tick-Tac-Tow. And I'd say, what's wrong with Tick-Tac-T-Tot? Do you want to be first? Do you want to be second? If you go first and you know what you're doing, you can't lose.

You can only win or tie. If you go second, and that's what's wrong with being a second mover, the best you could do is tie. That's why you want to go first and Tick-Tac-Tow because you want to win. And interestingly enough, chess is the same one. That's why there's an advantage to be white because white moves first. So what does this have to do with energy? Your energy should always probably be positive.

You've got a good natural positive energy. You know, there's some mechanisms. There's a new book out that I'm reading. It's not that new. It's new to me, anti-fragile by Nassim Nicholas Talib. We also wrote a black swan. Talad talks about being anti-fragile, which means you don't just survive from negative events, you grow. It makes you smarter. And he says, curiosity is an anti-fragile mindset. It's an energy.

It's a demeanor. It's a way of being. Like, if you're curious, you're going to have positive energy. If you're genuinely curious, you're going to bring out the best in both the other side and yourself. So that's why I say don't match their energy. You know, be positive, be genuinely curious. So like no matter what energy they are, come positive, come curious. Now, what's the best frame of mind that you want your opponent to be? Like, do you want, if they come in positive, is that always a good thing? Or could that also be something we should be weary of? You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind.

It helps you that your counterpart is positive also. So many of the negotiation strategies are designed to at least get them out of a negative mindset. because no one collaborates well in a negative mindset. Negative mindset's a downward spiral. So yeah, I'm going to want my counterpart to be positive in their interactions with me. It's going to make them want to have a long-term prosperous relationship. I totally agree. So you mentioned that you want to make sure that you're positive, you kind of diffuse the negativity.

So let's talk about tactical empathy. And let's talk about the real. reason why people need you to kind of diffuse the negative energy and what that does to the conversation and also why people love to be autonomous. Why is that important having autonomy? Talk to us about that. We're naturally in a negative mindset. Survival mode, you know, our default wiring, if you will, is on the negative side. It's what kept the cavemen alive. You know, the optimistic caveman got eaten by the bear every time. The negative pessimistic K-Men, it's like, I'm getting out of here.

So that's a wiring that we're born with. You wake up in a morning. You're in a naturally somewhat negative mode because it was necessary for survival. That's why it's really smart to have a gratitude exercise. When you first get out of bed in the morning, it's like mental hygiene. My counterpart, they're going to be negative.

I know that because they're human. I'm going to throw some stuff out right up to bat to diffuse it, not to be. to make them positive, but to diffuse a negative. There's a real big difference. And then I'm going to sprinkle it in periodically. Like, if I'm getting ready to ask you something, by definition, your caveman brain is going to say, ah, that's greedy. They're asking for too much.

I know that. That's how you're wired as a human being. You can't help it. So the diffusing mechanism is I'm going to say, it's going to seem greedy. and that not only diffuses but inoculates it. Somebody asked me what it costs to hire my company or to hire me as a consultant. I'm going to say more than you've ever spent in your life, more than you have. Because, first of all, my prices are high, and secondly, I don't want you to get caught off guard by the number.

So that's because of your natural negative wiring. So I'm going to let that sink in, and then you're going to decide whether or not you want to hear the number. Getting to your second point, which is autonomy, I need to preserve your autonomy. I need you to choose whether or not you want to hear the number. I don't need to sell you on it. I won't need you to choose it that preserves your autonomy. Then when you're ready, I've diffused the negative. I've preserved your autonomy.

You're going to go, all right, how much is it? And then the other thing I know that the number you imagine is going to be higher than a number that I throw out. So my number is actually going to seem like a relief. That's really smart. So let's dig deeper on tactical empathy because people get confused empathy with sympathy and even agreement. So talk to us about the difference between those three. Yeah. So let's talk about the mercenary's definition of empathy or the hostess negotiators,

It was why I recently started collaborating with Harvard way back when. Because as a hostage negotiator, if I use empathy, it can't be sympathy. I mean, how could I use sympathy with Al Qaeda? How are they going to believe I'm sympathetic to their cause? They're not. Or, you know, a Marxist guerrilla faction in Colombia, South America someplace. They're not going to think I'm sympathetic. But how do I use empathy?

Just demonstrating that I understand where they're coming from. Empathy is not agreement. empathy is not even like in the other side. It's just stating what their opinion is. If I could just explain this to my listeners, make sure they fully understand it. You're using tactical empathy to basically dismantle the elephant in the room, diffuse the negativity,

and make it so that everything's just out on the table, and it makes them feel more comfortable? Like, what does it actually do to them? Yeah, and I love your phrase, dismantle the elephant in the room, versus denying that it's there or pretending that you love the elephant. I love elephants.

No, you don't like elephants. It's right there, though. So it makes people feel validated. To feel understood is sort of this almost magical transformation that happens in people. And here's why it seems magical. When we were first working on the book, Tal Ra as a co-author said,

I think when you demonstrate empathy, it creates an epiphany in the other person, a realization. Like, it's what people say, they say, that's right when you've demonstrated empathy. That's right. That's how I feel. So, you know, I'm into neuroscience these days. I looked up epiphany on the web, and it said when you experience an epiphany among the neurochemicals that are triggered internally are oxytocin. And oxytocin is a bonding drug. So when someone feels understood by me, I know they bond with me.

And if I'm looking to make a deal and have a long-term relationship, I want you to bond with me because you're going to, now you're going to collaborate. So that's, it's a really indirect route to save a lot of time. And I can imagine it makes them feel safe and feel like it's okay to tell you, information, which in a negotiation, it's all about getting as much information as possible. Exactly. That's right. Look what you did. Yeah. And since you brought up, that's right, we're going to have to break that down to our listeners. So tell us about these magical words. That's right. And why your right is actually not what you want to hear. And that's right

is once you hear those words, you know that you're on the right track. Yeah, that's right. That's what people say when they feel completely understood or completely represented by the other side. And, you know, this, the empathy moment, the oxytocin moment, is insane. As an example, it's why common ground is for grade C level negotiators. Tactical empathy, that's right moments. That's for a plus people. And I'll give you an example. regardless of what you think of Donald Trump,

whether you're supportive of them or against them. You're either perplexed or proud of the fact that his followers follow him come what may. Like he said early on his presidency, I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and my supporters would still be behind me. Now, what happened they created this bond with them? Was it common ground?

Well, when Trump first ran for president, you know, all the pundits said he'll never get elected because he's a New Yorker. He's a billionaire. But the New Yorker and billionaire stuff means he has no common ground with the Republican base. And they will never embrace him. Well, clearly they embraced him despite sharing no common ground as people would normally define it. So what is it? When he stood up and started talking about the stuff that he believed in, at some point in time, people listening to him said, that's right. That's what I believe in. You know, Trump would be up there and say, you know, I hate the media.

And all the Republicans that hate the media would go like, that's right. The media is an evil thing. You know, he says, lame stream media and vast majority of the Republican base believe that the media is biased. So he was saying things and people were saying, that's right, creating a bond to be envied. If you love Donald Trump, you want to emulate what he did. If you hate Donald Trump, you're mad at what he did because it's such a huge bond. And me and my team, you know, we think, you know, if Donald Trump doesn't tell you what oxytocin will do for you in terms of building relationships, then you are not paying attention. It's so interesting.

It's so true. It's like whether you love him or you hate him, he's got some amazing persuasive skills. So let's talk about, since we're on this topic, you're right. versus that's right. Yeah, thanks for bringing that back up again. Because a lot of people won't think that your right is the same as that's right. And it's not. I mean, everybody's guilty of this.

Everybody listening to your podcast. I know all of you listeners out there, sometime in the last week, somebody that you love or somebody that you have to keep their relationship with has been hammering you about something you don't want to do. And you can't get them to stop. And you look them in the eye and you go, you're right.

And they shut up and they stop bothering you. Your right is a really polite way to get somebody that either you have love or you have to keep a relationship with to leave you alone. To get them to stop talking. There's no shortage of wives who have realized that if they look at their husband

when he's given her a hard time about something, And if she looks at him and says, you're right, he will stop bothering you. That's how effective it is. So people use it. But the flip side of it is everybody does it and nobody thinks that it's being done to them. Like, I can lose for you. It's being done to you. And that's why you got to know the difference.

And it's huge. The implication, if I could share a short story, buddy in mind, Tim Larkin, runs a a self-defense company out of Vegas, good guy. Name of his book is When Violence is the Answer. Like, he doesn't advocate it. But he's like, there are moments in your life that the only thing that's going to save you is violence. And so if that's true, you've got to know how to do it.

He's in a Black Belt Hall of Fame. He's a sweetheart of a guy, very low-key dude. I mean to me, he says, you saved me so much money. I'm like, cool. How did that happen? He had his whole team together in his company. He's laying out strategy. He thinks he's putting everybody on the right track.

You know, he's got it going on. He's explaining. And one of his senior executives looks at him and says, Tim, you're right. And he just, it stops some deadness tracks. And he says, holy cow. I am so far off base with my guys that they're politely asking me to shut up. So, you know, he didn't get offended.

He's a smart dude. He took it for what it was worth. He stopped the meeting. He went and talked to each one of his guys and figured out what all the problems were and aligned everybody on the mission. And he said, if I had never read, never split the difference, I'd have thought it was a great meeting. I didn't ever realize that one of my guys was suddenly telling me like, Tim, we can't take it anymore. You're on the wrong track. I'd have thought, you're right, was a great response.

He says, you saved me so much money. And I got my team back together, understanding that that that was. was a sign that I was off track with them. The sucky part is that you, I've learned this before. And then you forget about it because it's so natural. And I feel like I've already learned this before, but I hope that it sticks to everybody tuning in this time that when somebody says, you're right, it means that, hey, they don't want to hear what you're saying anymore. They want you to shut up. They're not taking your advice. They don't agree with you. But for that's right, I guess the one question that I have is, is that really the only phrase

that we need to look for, or are there variations of that's right? You know, you can get variations in the team, a Black Swan team. We've been trying to decide, is it like one star that's right? Is it five star? You know, you're going to hear that's it exactly. You're going to hear you got it. You're going to hear various versions of it. You know, you might hear that's right.

Really, if you, when they say it, what you're really going for is if you could tell when they say it, they felt a sense of relief, or, you know, they felt a new idea come to them. Now, any versions of it are good. Those are all good. But, you know, you may need an accumulation. You may be leaving something out. You may not quite have hit it exactly with them. Any version of it is a good version as long as it's not your right. You're on the right track. You're communicating. It's going back to that energy thing that we were just talking about. It's the energy that we're looking for. So if they're like, oh, yeah, you're right, you're right.

And they're kind of just moving the conversation along rather than, like, you feel like they're resonating with what you're saying. Yes. Yeah, good point. And I like the way you put that. I like your focus on energy. That makes a big difference. At Yap, we have a super unique company culture.

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by your side. Okay, so I want to get into some real examples of this tactical empathy. And I'm going to say a phrase about the way somebody's feeling in a situation. And then I'd love for you to say the sympathetic way that somebody could respond to that, and then the tactical empathy way that someone can respond to that, okay? This is like a game show. It's like a game. Yes, this is like a negotiation game show

with Chris Vos and Halitaha. Okay. So let's say your opponent thinks you're an arrogant jerk based on your past hot-headed interactions. How do you diffuse that elephant in the room in a sympathetic way, which is the wrong way, and then in an empathetic way,

which is the right way? A sympathetic way would probably be like, you know, I understand my dad was an arrogant, hot-headed jerk, and it was really hard for me to deal with him too. You know, that would be like trying to share the experience. I understand is what people often say when they're trying to be sympathetic, but they want to give you an example of their own experience and how they dealt with it. The unspoken part of it is I'm saying, like, look, I got over. it so it's time for you to get over it too, which is you're trying to help people get over stuff.

So, you know, you think on the suicide hotline way back when he said, if somebody's in quicksand, you don't help them by getting into the quicksand with them. And that's kind of what sympathy is. So team me up again and I'll give you the tactical empathy. Your opponent thinks you are an arrogant jerk based on past hot-headed interactions. You know, you probably feel like I'm an arrogant jerk. You probably feel like I don't listen to you, that I fly off the handle. You probably scare this anything to me at all because you never know when I'm going to blow up and it's painful for you. So then they feel like, oh, he understands me.

It just makes them, I guess, feel more calm that that's acknowledged. Yeah, it starts to do. It makes me look honest, genuine, unafraid of my shortcomings. You know, you're not going to solve a problem unless you're aware of the problem. If I at least articulate it, at least I'm aware. You know, I'm not giving you a sympathetic response, which is like kind of like, you know, everybody deals with hot-headed people. It's just part of life.

That doesn't show any awareness that maybe my approach might be kind of, productive. So if I say, look, you know, I probably seem like a hot-headed jerk, if I begin to demonstrate at least some awareness of it, you have an encouragement. I'm, I am never going to fix a problem that I won't even admit is a problem, you know, first step, right? You know, the 12-step programs globally, whatever 12-step thing you're dealing with. The first step is recognition of the problem, at least recognition of the dynamic. Maybe I don't even want to say it's a problem. At least I recognize the dynamic.

That's tremendously reassuring to the other side. And it doesn't imply that they're wrong in not reacting or they're off base or they're, you know, any of the negative things that simple recognition has a tendency to keep from ever getting on the table. Okay, one more. Let's say you're doing a group project and two colleagues don't get along with each other. and they're refusing to work together. How would you diffuse that with tactical empathy? So your answer might be like, look, you guys clearly see things differently. You guys are clearly rubbing each other the wrong way.

What are we trying to accomplish here? I did two things with that. You know, I threw out some understanding that wasn't pointing a finger at either person. or not I don't need them to feel the group is pointing a finger at them and I don't need a group to think that I'm pointing a finger out I'm just calling out the dynamic you know I'm looking to dismantle the elephant in the room so to follow on what question which is a calibrated question your your questions if you ask them at all probably ought to start with what or how because you're asking the question to create an effect

and then to get people to think. And you also got to throw in correct tone of voice because I could say, what are we trying to accomplish here? Which is accusatory. You know, my voice is saying, like, why don't you two idiots see the damage you're created? But instead, I go,

what are we trying to accomplish here? You know, it's curious. It's trying to get people without feeling accused to take a look at their original reason for being in the room, original reason for being part of the group, and give them the opportunity to decide whether or not they want to stick to that original reason, which is, again, that autonomy thing that you were talking about earlier,

which people will die to preserve their autonomy. People will walk away, people will tank deals. There's all sorts of things that to other people that they do, that it's clearly damaging to them short-term and long-term just to preserve their autonomy. And that's specifically to preserve the ability to say no, right? So why is that so powerful? Why do people like to have the choice to say no? What's the psychology behind that? Again, I believe it's an autonomy issue. You know, one of the books that inspired me early on when I first realized that in a hostage negotiation applied to business was a book called Start.

with No, written back in 2002 by a guy named Jim Camp. And he was a salesman. He had backgrounds in both the military and in sports, coaching. But he's working as a salesman. And he called it the right to veto. And his approach on Start with No was in a sales process. He would say, look, I want you to know you could say no to me at any time. Any moment in time, it's okay to say no, I will go away.

I'm not trying to get you to say yes without you understanding that you could say no at any moment. Call it the right to veto. And just preserving that right, suddenly he made more sales. Suddenly he made more deals. He made more agreements. He made more than anybody else did. And that's where, you know, Jim said people will die to preserve their autonomy. So this autonomy thing and a right to say no, the feeling that it's okay to say no goes an awful long way.

making people feel that you're not trying to bamboozle. Yeah. So for me, one of the least intuitive things about everything that you teach is the fact that we're not trying to get people to say yes. We're trying to get people to say no because of this thing we just talked about, that people love to have the choice to say no and it makes them feel in control, right? So talk to us about how we can ask questions in a way where people would start with no and then agree with us and get to the yes.

but they always start with saying no and then get to the yes. So how do we ask questions like that? Yeah, well, most of them, it's simple, but it's hard because it's so against our wiring. Like, I never say, have you got a few minutes to talk? I say, it's now a bad time to talk. I never say, do you agree? I say, do you disagree? I never say, is this something that would work for you?

I'd say, is this a ridiculous idea? Are you against? I mean, the transformation from yes to know is actually really simple once it doesn't scare the hell out of you. But so many people the first time out are so afraid because you're taught that yes is success, which if you believe that, it makes no by definition failure. People are horrified of the word. Once you can cross that bridge, the rest of it is so easy. Why do you think people will tend to agree with you more and you'll get what you want when they actually say no first?

Well, people are conditioned from the age of two that when they say no, it makes them feel safe and protected. It's what an adult says to a child when a child does something wrong. No. So what does a child learn from that? Saying no is what adults do. Adults jobs to say no. You know, I once, and even like I was a guy who was a lieutenant on NYPD. He once told me a lieutenant's job was to say no.

And he didn't even care what the question was. He felt like he was doing his job when he said no. So it makes no sense, but people condition themselves over and over and over. Like Pavlov's dog from the famous psychological experiment. When I say no, I feel safe and in control. So get somebody to say no because what the real issue is, you need to know what comes after the word, either yes or no. If I get you to say yes, you're going to be reluctant to say anything else because you're going to feel like you're digging yourself into a hole.

If I say, which is do you agree, you might want to say yes, but here are the problems. If I say, do you disagree? You're going to be like, no. But I can't agree unless you fix these final. problem with problems. And now I've got a path forward. The really what I need to know is I need you thinking, laying out problems for me. And when you're feeling safe and secure, you can do that. Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like an easy way to test this out is even in your email, because it might be hard to do it in person because it's hard to think of those things on the spot.

But next time you're writing an email, instead of asking a question to get them to say yes, try to ask them a question that will get them to say no and just use that as practice. Is there any other ways that we can practice this? Because I feel like this one gem is so powerful if people just learned how to use it. Well, you know, and to get used to it and just change from,

have you got a few minutes to talk to, is now a bad time to talk, like in all your conversations. Small stakes practice for high stakes results. So in a little bitty conversations, we're trying to get asked on a regular basis. Just practice get no instead and gain a feel and watch to see over and over again the different kind of reaction you get. It's so interesting. I love this topic. So let's talk about the illusion of control. How else can we give our opponent the illusion of control? What are some other tactics?

Yeah, well, the what and how questions, you know, in a Black Swan method, we call calibrated questions. People love to be asked what to do. People love to be asked how to do something. You give them the illusion of control when you ask those questions. And negotiation is not about control to guide someone, what in crisis intervention they call guided discovery. That's not control. It's given the other side a lot of latitude. But you kind of frame things with a what or how question. And the other side doesn't feel framed. They feel they would just ask what to do or how to do it.

I mean, they feel in control. So it's given the other side the illusion of control. It's usually through a what or a how question. Could you give us an example? Well, you know, the famous, how am I supposed to do that as a way to say no? The other side doesn't feel attacked. What it really is is if you can't do something because implementation is really difficult, you say, how am I supposed to do that?

Or you might say it three times. How am I supposed to do that? Or you might say the third time, how am I supposed to do that? Each one of those questions makes the other side think about the complexity of the problems. But they don't know that you made them think about it. They feel in control. They feel like you're asking for help. And, you know, that's kind of the, that's the way you get it started.

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One more question on this general topic, accusations audits. Talk to us about that. How do we use them? What's your methodology there? This whole accusations audit is doing an audit, if you will. Of all the negative things the other side might think about you. Not what you think about them or what they might think about you. And it really starts with, you know, what's all the stuff that you're worried

that you need to deny. Like, I don't want you to think I'm greedy. I don't want you to think I'm not listening. I don't want you to think I'm disrespectful. If you're in sales, every salesperson knows that there are enough, not your fault, but there are enough slimy salespeople out there

that sales has got a negative connotation to the word. You know, the car salesman. You use car salesman. Everybody in sales understands that. So you might want to say, I don't want you to think I'm just another salesman, slick salesman. Whatever you might want to deny, you simply take the denial out and list that stuff out and put it at it as you may think.

You probably think is even stronger. I'm sure you probably think that since I'm in sales, I'm another fast talking, hustling salesperson. It doesn't care about you. It just wants to push you into a deal. I'm sure this is going to sound disrespectful. I'm sure this is going to sound like I don't understand. you're probably going to think this makes me look greedy. Empathy again, how the other side might see things,

but just listing stuff out in advance and using it to either dismantle the elephant in room or to keep the elephant from getting built in the first place. That's the thing that most people are most afraid of is they think you're going to speak a negativity into existence by calling it out. You know, what's that stupid, movie Candyman. If you say Candyman five times, boom, you know, the bag, the boogeyman is there.

What really happens is it creates this inoculating effect. So much so that if you don't have a negative thought in your head, but I know you're going to react negatively to what I'm going to say, I will say, this is going to sound harsh. And then I'll let you, I'll watch you to what you brace yourself and you're going to give me some sort of a physical signal, if not verbal, to go ahead. This is actually now we realize this ground that in neuroscience, because an emotional pain and a physical pain is almost exactly the same thing. In neuroscience is found that if I warn you pain is coming, there's going to be a window that you need to brace yourself. like if I have to

if I'm a doctor and I'm going to give you a needle I'm going to say this is going to hurt now somewhere between three and 20 seconds is probably the window and I need to watch you

and you're going to go like all right give it to me and then bang whenever that is so if I say effectively it's going to sound harsh which is what I have to say is going to hurt I'll let you brace yourself

and you will will appreciate the warning. And it will hurt less every time, every time. And it's very similar to what you just said about the pricing when you say, hey, like, you're going to think it's high. Okay, tell me what the price is. And then, like you said, they think they're expecting something way worse because you warned them. And so, like you said, it probably relaxes them.

And then they accept it more because they were expecting something way worse. Their imagination probably took them elsewhere. Exactly. So let's talk about body language. You have a course on Masterclass, which is super popular, and congratulations on that. And in that course, you touch on the 73855 role when it comes to body language. Could you talk to us about this? Because we haven't talked about it yet on any of our podcast together.

All right. Well, basically, if you add those numbers up, you get 100. And the 38 stands for tone of voice and a 55 stands for body language, which is kind of 93% of your communication is not the words. And there's a lot of people that, you know, they want to argue whether those numbers are accurate, they get crazy over it. And they're really the most important issues to, regardless of how strongly think those numbers are. tone of voice and body language is a lot more important than the words. I can say to you, wow, that was a smart remark. That's an insult.

But if I were to say to you, wow, that was a smart remark. That's a compliment. I didn't change a word. If that doesn't illustrate to you the difference in tone of voice, I don't change a single word, and the meaning changes 180 degrees. So what about body language? Our director of business development is a young lady named Davy Johnson, and she's just naturally an encouraging person.

And she's told me, we were talking about this the other day. She knows if she's talking to somebody, she tilts her head to the side and puts her eyebrows up. Like she's really interested. Like she's shocked at what people will share with her. And she'll just go, really? And they will start laying out stuff to her of the struggles that they're dealing with and how much our help as a business could be for them. And she's almost astonished.

She didn't even have to ask a question. She just goes, really? Body language can be so encouraging if you let it be. Or conversely, it'll shut people down if you don't watch it. So it can be an enormously encouraging, an enormously powerful thing to use in conjunction with your intent. I said there were two things about the 73855. The real issue is when body language and tone of voice

do not match up with the words. That's when you know you got a problem. It doesn't matter what the ratio is. It's when those things are not lining up. then you realize that what they're saying and what they're feeling are two different things. And then you dig into it. Could you give us an example of when people's, what they say doesn't match their body language? I'm trying to get an agreement from you.

And you go, okay, a lot of people would say, oh, they said, okay, we're good. But the way I said it, there's a lot of stuff crossed my mind. There's a lot of things that I'm worried about. If I go, okay, you think that deal's going through without a hitch, you are in for a rude surprise. How do you deal with that? You just say something as simple as what we call a label, you go like, I heard you say, okay,

but it seemed like a lot of things crossed your mind when you did. That's what gets them. It makes them feel safe sharing the things that went through their mind. So that would be an example of how their words would not match up with their tongue. And labeling basically just acknowledges what they're feeling and you try to get the information out of them. So you're basically just telling them what you perceive to be their feelings, how they're feeling? Yeah, exactly. And really since the first time that we talked, we use labels a lot more than questions to get information out of people now.

You know, instead of saying, like, what's on your mind today? I might say, seems like there's stuff on your mind today. Now, the second way is most likely to get a lot more really good information out of you than the first way. or what's stopping for you guys from going through with this deal? Would switch to, seems like there's something stopping you guys from going through with this deal. That second one, that label, is going to get a lot more information. Do you understand why just that small shift would change the way somebody reacts to it?

Like, what's the reasoning behind that? I think principally, Danny Connollman, who wrote the book, Thinking Fast and Slow, talked about slow in-depth thinking and fast reactionary thinking. And a what question will trigger you into slow in-depth thinking, which means you're going to think a lot about the question, which means the answer is going to be guarded and filtered. And depending upon how much mental energy you have, you may just stop thinking about it because there's too much.

much work. So questions cause those sorts of reactions. We're seeing it on a regular basis, if I just go, seems like, for whatever reason, I know it will trigger your unvarnished thoughts to come out much more readily, so much so that we had a client say labels unlock the floodgates of truth talk. Because people got so much more candid and just, you know, think about what they're saying they just start sharing them. And then wouldn't you say that, so I guess I'm putting two strategies together, if you say seems like, and then you tell a lie so that they correct you, isn't that something powerful? Like people love to correct other people. So if you say like, seems like you came here not wanting to make a deal. When you know they came here wanting to make

a deal or something like that, and then they'll be like, oh, no, no. Is that a good strategy to use? Yeah, well, clearly you've been doing your homework. You know, people love the correct. So sporadically, you know, we teach people to say stuff wrong on purpose to get corrected because a correctionist feels so good. It's almost addicting. It's ridiculous how good people feel when they correct. And then a secondary consequence of that it plays in your benefit also.

make the quote is attributed to Maya Angelou. People don't remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel. Well, if you get really closely guarded information from them, you don't want them to regret telling you. So if they corrected you when they gave you that closely guarded information, they remember how they feel when they said it. They felt great in the moment.

And they're not going to regret sharing really intimate details with you because it felt so good while they were doing. Do you have an example of when you got somebody to correct themselves and how it helped you in a negotiation, or just any sort of example to really drill this home with everybody tuning in? You know, one of those students when we were teaching in Georgetown was in a midst of a real estate deal, and a building was too good to be true.

Like a cash cow, historic district, which meant it was a cash machine. and it couldn't be knocked down, and a historic district meant competing buildings couldn't be built. So it was a really unique building. And he couldn't understand why the building was up for sale. And he said, it seems like the owner just doesn't believe in a fundamental future of the market.

And the agent immediately shot back. Now he's underwater on several other buildings. Now, that was closely held information that no agent should ever share. But it was a correction. And this guy didn't even know he was saying it wrong on purpose. He was just trying to figure it out. And so what's the possible?

Why would a guy sell a cash cow? Like, is it haunted? You know, what's going on here? And so he just said, it seems like it doesn't believe in the future fundamentals of the market. And the agent shot back immediately information that he should not have shared because it was a correction. It's just, you know, another.

Another company, two companies are at impasse, and the one company that we're coaching, they think they have a rough idea who the problem is on the other side of the table, but they could only narrow it down to one or two possible people. So let's call them Tom and Bob. So at the table, they go, it seems like Tom and Bob are against this deal. The counterpart said, no, it isn't Tom, it's Bob. Immediately threw his colleague under the bus. but since it was a correction,

he did it without thinking about it and didn't regret sharing the information because he was correcting the other side. Okay, Chris, this was an amazing conversation. I do want to be respectful of your time. The last question I asked all my guests on Younger Profiting Podcast is what is your secret to profiting in life?

Probably two things. Yeah, it's a journey. Look, it's just a journey. Take your eyes off the destination and focus on a journey. And then whatever you're into, there's got to be something that's larger than you. I'm watching a documentary yesterday on David Geffen. And David Geffen's a billionaire.

But what I really, and I didn't know anything about the guy, other than he's a rich Hollywood guy. And my take was that he was really dedicated to the musicians and the artist that he served. And what he was dedicated to was the creation of their art. And it was bigger than him. And it's sustaining. And I saw another documentary on Clive Davis. Conversely, Clive Davis dedicated to the music.

Like he wanted to create his bigger thing, was he wanted phenomenal music. And so if there's something you're dedicated to that you're pursuing that's bigger than you, it's kind of life is going to be enormously rich. And there are other riches besides money. Now, money's a means, money's jet fuel. And the other thing about the Geffen documentary was,

he said, Dave, you got a billion dollars. Are you happy? And he was like, wow. Now doing my thing is what makes me happy. So, you know, that's how you become profitable. And as a last note, you know, I'd like to give people an opportunity to follow up with me if possible. But I'm really glad you asked that question,

because there are larger things. Once you're into something larger than you, then life is going to be enormously profitable. Of course. And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? Yeah, you know, the easiest thing to do, the smartest thing is to subscribe to our newsletter. It's called The Edge.

It comes out on Tuesday mornings. Simplest way to subscribe, sign up, text to sign up function. The number of your text to is 30. 33-7-7-7-7. The message you send is Black Swan Method, three words, not case-sensitive, spaces between the words. The newsletter is a gateway to everything we do. It's free, but better than that, it's actionable and it's concise. And then it's the gateway. It really is. We get so many things that we can do to help you raise the level of your game and also look at life. differently. Life's a lot more enjoyable when negotiation is no longer combative, but it's collaborative.

Awesome. So I'll put that number to text in the show notes, guys, so that you don't need to write it down. Just head over to the show notes so you guys can grab that number to text and what to text. Chris, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. Thank you. I love talking with you. You're upbeat. You're fun to talk to.