Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Dr. Marshall Goldsmith on Becoming a Better Leader

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

Do you want to become the person you’ve always wanted to be, but can’t seem to beat out bad habits that hold you back, or form new habits that help you succeed? The leading expert on leadership and coaching for behavioral change, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith pinpoints common behavioral problems and how to overcome them to enact meaningful, lasting change. Through feedforward, the daily question process, gratitude, and 360-degree feedback, anyone can become a great leader and level up. In this episode, Hala and Marshall chat about why success makes you fail, the 20 habits that hold people back, how to avoid and overcome bad triggers, the power of listening, and how to live a happier life.    Topics Include: - Key Lessons learned from Peter Drucker - What Buddhism taught him - Defining “feedforward”  - Why success makes you fail - Superstition trap - Defining success  - Key concepts from his books - The Daily Question Process  - Habits that hold people back  - Why the inherent urge to win? - How to break the habit of being negative  - The power of gratitude  - 360-degree feedback  - Excuses people have for change  - Defining a behavioral trigger - 4 stages of the feedback loop - How to avoid triggers  - Why the environment matters  - How to change our habits  - Magic moves: apology and optimism  - What makes listening so powerful?  - Mojo vs nojo - Advice for a happy life  - And other topics… Dr. Marshall Goldsmith is recognized as the leading expert on leadership and coaching for behavioral change. He has been named one of the Top Ten Business Thinkers in the World and the top-rated executive coach at the Thinkers50 ceremony in London since 2011.  Marshall is the author of several Wall Street Journal and New York Times #1 bestsellers including Triggers and What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, which is also the winner of the Harold Longman Award as Best Business Book of the Year. His newest book, The Earned Life: Lose Regret, Choose Fulfillment comes out May 2022.  Sponsored By: Indeed - Go to Indeed.com/profiting to claim your $75 credit before April 30th Jordan Harbinger - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations First Person - Go to getfirstperson.com and use code YAP to get 15% off your first order Resources Mentioned:  YAP Episode #42: Become a Better Leader with Dr. Marshall Goldsmith https://youngandprofiting.com/42-become-a-better-leader-with-dr-marshall-goldsmith/  Marshall’s Email: [e-mail] Inc.com: Do You Have Mojo or Nojo?: https://www.inc.com/marshall-goldsmith/mojo-nojo.html  Inc.com: Why Leadership is a Contact Sport: https://www.inc.com/marshall-goldsmith/contact-sport-overview.html  Marshall’s Website: https://marshallgoldsmith.com/ Marshall’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marshallgoldsmith/ Marshall’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachgoldsmith/ Marshall’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/coachgoldsmith Marshall’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Marshall.Goldsmith.Library Marshall’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtvlM6xRUC_ErV_q1FgUgiA Connect with Young and Profiting:  YAP’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting/     Hala’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/     Hala’s Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/yapwithhala/     Hala’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/yapwithhala  Clubhouse: https://www.clubhouse.com/@halataha   Website: https://www.youngandprofiting.com/  Text Hala: https://youngandprofiting.co/TextHala or text “YAP” to 28046 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry.

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Hey, Young and Profitors, I have loved texting with all of you guys. It's been so much fun answering all your questions and getting your feedback on YAP. If you're not in our text community powered by select text, all you got to do is text YAP YAP to 28046, or go ahead and tap that link in the show notes. You don't want to miss out. Text YAP to 28046. This week on YAP, we're revisiting an incredible

episode with a world-renowned business educator and coach, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall has over four decades of experience and is the number one leadership coach and highest paid executive coach in the world, helping top CEOs overcome limiting beliefs and behaviors. Marshall's work has been featured in the New Yorker Forbes and Business Times. He's also the author of The New York Times and Wall Street Journal number one bestselling books, Triggers, and What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Marshall's newest book, The Earned Life, Luzer Grett, Choose for Filment, was just released yesterday on May 3rd of this year. And yes, Yap Bam, that means that Marshall is going to be coming back on the show to

chat about his new book and how we can lead more fulfilling lives with zero regrets. I can't wait for you guys to hear that conversation. It was amazing. And so I thought we'd share Marshall's Yap classic that I recorded in October of 2019, that's episode number 42, to get us all hyped up to have Marshall back on the podcast. And so I've distilled this interview, his original interview on the app to the most relevant, actionable advice so that you can listen, learn, and profit faster. In this episode, Marshall and I go deep on how to avoid and manage triggers and enact meaningful and lasting change. We also break down the importance of feedback loops and Marshall's groundbreaking 360 assessment technique. Marshall also shines a spotlight

on the 20 habits that hold people back and shares the secrets to breaking them. If you're looking for a playbook to become the leader and person you want to be, you've come to the right place. All right, so here's my conversation with a legendary Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, and I'll catch you next week for round two. I knew that you studied directly under the father of modern management. His name is Peter Drucker. What was he like and what were some of the key lessons that he taught you? Well, I feel very blessed. I mean, I got ranked number one leadership thinker in the world twice. My intellect compared to his is that of a 10 year old child. This guy was so, so smart. He taught me many things. And I'm going to share just a couple with you.

One is he said, you know, we spend a lot of time helping leaders learn what to do. We don't spend enough time helping leaders learn what to stop. He said, half the leaders I meet, they do not need to learn what to do. They need to learn what to stop. Well, that one comment led to my book, What Got You Here, Won't Get You There. Now, the second thing he taught me, which is really good for younger people who are listening to your podcast right now is this. If your listeners don't understand anything I've said, but this one thing, it's gonna help them be more effective in life and happier.

Including you, so this is just a great thing to learn. He said, our mission in life is to make a positive difference. Not to be over smart, not to be over right. Well, we get so wrapped up trying to prove how smart we are and right, we are, we forget. We're not here on earth to do that. We're here to make a positive difference. If we don't make a positive difference, it doesn't really matter how smart we are, how right we are. And he said number two, every decision on the world is made by the person that has the power to make the decision. Not the smartest person, the best person, the fair person, or logical

person. Decision that may be based on one and only one variable power. If it has power to make the decision, it's going to make the decision. And he said, if I need influence you and you have the power to make the decision, there's one word to describe you. That's called customer. One word to describe me is called salesperson. You sell what you can sell. You change what you can change. If you can sell it, you sell it.

If you can't sell it, you can't change it. Take a deep breath and let it go. It's just such good advice. And before you deal with any topic, ask yourself one question, am I willing at this time to make the investment required to make a positive difference on this topic? Am I willing at this time to make the investment required to make a positive difference on this topic? If the answer is yes, go for it. The answer is no, let it go. That's really good advice. Something else that fascinated me about yourself and something that I feel is really different is that you describe yourself as a philosophical Buddhist. So what's dear to you towards Buddhism and what is being a Buddhist taught you? Well, you're a little young

for this, but back in the olden days, that was what was called the hippie. I spent, for example, 1969, three months out on the road hitchhiking. That was like living in another era. And back in that day, people often study different kinds of religions and philosophies. So I studied Buddhism. So I've been a Buddhism verb almost 50 years.

And I'm not a religious Buddhist, so I'm a philosophical Buddhist. Buddha was brought up very rich as father was a king. He was protected from life. And then it was living in a kind of bubble. One day he was able to sneak out of the bubble and he looked around and he learned something. He said, people get old.

Then he was able to sneak out of a second time. He learned, people get sick. Third time when people die, he said, second time and learn people get sick. Third time when people die, you get old, you get sick and you die. Shit happens. Not so good. Then he realized I can't be happy with more all this money and stuff. It doesn't make any difference. Then he went out in the woods and starved himself and he tried to be happy with less. Then he learned he can't be happy with less either. He finally realized you can only be happy with one thing.

What you have is only one time you could be happy. And it's now, there's only one place you can find peace that's here. Yeah. And that's to me the essence of Buddhism. And in my coaching, I teach something called feed forward. Everybody asks for input. I teach them to listen to it, to thank people.

And they don't promise to do everything, but you do what you can. And Buddha said, only do what I teach if it works for you. That's where I got the idea. If it doesn't work for you, it's okay, don't do it. So when people give us ideas to try to help us, rather than judging them or critiquing their ideas or putting them down, you know, the learning point is you say thank you for the ideas. That's awesome. Super interesting. So like I mentioned, you are a world renowned leadership coach.

Your clients are top performing CEOs and executives, but it's honestly a bit counterintuitive to think that top leaders who have achieved so much success have trouble changing any unfavorable behaviors that they have on their own and need to seek outside help from people like yourself. However, I know that's exactly what your popular book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There, is all about. And you have said in the past that success makes you fail. So can you explain why that is true and why it's extremely hard for successful people to change? Well, you're making a great point. Any human, in fact, any animal will replicate true and why it's extremely hard for successful people to change.

You're making a great point. Any human, in fact, any animal, will replicate behavior that's followed by positive reinforcement. The more successful we become, the more positive reinforcement we get. We fall into something called a superstition trap. What is it? Sounds like this. I behave this way. I am successful. Therefore, I

must be successful because I behave this way. Well, the reality is we all behave the way we behave and everyone I work with is mega-successful. And they're all successful because they do many things right. And it's something that are stupid. And I've never been to anyone so wonderful. They had nothing on the InSpyto list. Well, we've all had nothing on the InSpyto list. Well, we've all got something on the InSpyto list. See, one thing I'm very proud of in my book triggers is 27 major CEOs endorsed the book. I'm so proud of that. It's 30 years ago, no CEO would admit to having a coach. They would have been ashamed to have a coach, embarrassed

to have a coach. Well, today they're not ashamed. We all need help. Twilight Thorpe, world's greatest choreographer is at the same personal trainer for 27 years. Why she had the same trainer for 27 years? I'm Twilight Thorpe, I need help and it's okay. That's why she looks so good. Top 10 tennis players, how many of them have a coach? 10? Why do they have a coach? You're trying to get better. So I think it's really just a healthy way to look at life. Yeah, so do you feel like there's a right balance between success and failure? Well, to me, on a more existential level, how do you define success?

I'll give you just a few key variables. One is, if you're not healthy, the rest of this doesn't matter too much. Two, you need enough wealth to have at least a middle or upper middle class kind of income. Extremely poor people are not particularly happy, but after you get to kind of a middle level of income from there on up, more money doesn't make you happier. Lottery winners are not that much happier, for example. So you need wealth to a degree, you need health, then you need to have great relationships with people you love. So, you need health, you need to have great relationships with people

you love. So, you know, your listener shouldn't get self-focused in their career, they're with people they love. And then assuming you have enough wealth, you're healthy, you've got great relationships with people you love, what matters, two things. The first is happiness, who by happiness, what I mean is you love the process of what you're doing. You're just doing what you're doing it. And the second is meaning. That is the outcomes of what you're doing are important to you. And what's really important in life is you need to experience both happiness and meaning simultaneously. If you just try to achieve happiness without meaning, well, you know, like for me when you're older, you're some like old man playing crappy golf with old people

at the country club eating chicken sandwiches and discussing all of our surgery. That doesn't work, right? There's empty, it's empty. On the other hand, if you try to pursue meaning without happiness, you're a victim or a martyr. So you really need to, number one, love what you're doing and two, you need to see it's meaningful to you. And the key to may for success is,

no one can find happiness for you but you. No one can find meaning for you but you. I cannot tell you what you love doing. That is to come from your heart. I can also not tell you what's meaningful for you. That also has to come from your heart. So happiness is meaning to me. That's the ultimate goal of success.

It needs to come though from the inside, not from the outside. The Green Western diseases, I'll be happy when, when I get the money status BMW condominium, I will be happy when, when we all have the same win. The key is, you know, be happy now, be happy with what you have. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break

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So really great advice. So let's talk about your two most popular books. What got you here won't get you there and triggers. They've been recognized by Amazon.com. It's two of the top 100 leadership and success books ever written. Millions and millions of people have benefited from your books, which is so incredible. So as an introduction to the books, and also your expertise to our listeners, if our readers had to take away one key concept from each of these books, what would that be? Well, first I'll start with what got you here when we're here.

Teach people there is ask for input from everyone around you. How can I be a better manager? How can I be a better team player? How can I be a better supplier? How can I be a better manager? How can I be a better team player? How can I be a better supplier? How can I be a better customer? How can I be a better son or daughter? How can I be a better father or mother? Better brother sister, better friend, better family member? You didn't have an ad in that question. How can I be a better than listen to what people have to say? Again, don't promise to do everything they say. Just promise to listen and think about it. Pick the most important things for you to improve and then just follow up on

a regular basis. How am I doing? Follow up on a regular basis, get input. And if you do this, I mean, I have research from tens of thousands of people, they tend to become more effective, not as judged by yourself, but as judged by the most important people in your life. So that's from my book, What Got You, Here, Won't You There. And my book, Triggers, I'll teach your list, there's something to take three minutes a day, cost nothing, we'll help you get better and almost anything. Now, some people are skeptical. Three minutes a day, cost nothing, don't we get better at anything? Sounds too good to be true. I have to people that start doing this quit within two weeks, not because it does not work, and quit because it does work.

This is called the daily question process. And that's, you get out of spreadsheet, you write down a column of questions that represent what's most important in your life, friends, family, co-workers, etc. Every question has to be answered with a yes or no or a number. Seven boxes across one for every day of the week. At the end of the week, the spreadsheet will give you a report card. I will warn your listeners in advance that a report card they see at the end of the week might not be quite as beautiful as the corporate values of privacy stuck up on a wall.

I've been doing this for years and you do this every day, you learn that life. Life is incredibly easy to talk. Life's incredibly difficult to live. And if you do this every day, it's humbling. Most people can't do it. I have a woman named Jasmine call me every day. She's going to call me right after this call. Every day she calls me and she listens to me, read questions I wrote and provide answers I wrote every day. Someone asked me, well, why do you have a woman call you every day? Don't you know the theory about how to change behavior? I wrote

the theory about how to change behavior. I have a woman call you every day? Don't you know the theory about how to change behavior? I wrote the theory about how to change behavior. Have a woman call me every day because my name is Marshall Gull Smith. I got ranked number one leadership thinker coach in the world. I'm too cowardly to do this stuff by myself and too undisciplined to do it by myself. And I need help.

And it's okay. So once we admit we need help, life is better for everybody. And this daily question process is amazing. The first six questions I recommend It's okay. Once we admit we need help, life is better for everybody. This daily question process is amazing. The first six questions I recommend are number one, and they all start with, did I do my best. Number one, did I do my best to set clear goals.

Number two, did I do my best to make progress for achieving my goals today. Number three, did I do my best to find meaning. Number four, did I do my best to find meaning? Number four, did I do my best to be happy? Number five, did I do my best to build positive relationships? And finally, number six, did I do my best today to be fully engaged? And our research on this is amazing. Just by asking these six questions every day, you tend to get better in amazing ways.

And if your listeners would like to get articles, I wrote one called Leadership as a Context Board. And that talks about the point I made from what got you going with you there. I wrote another one called the Daily Questions from the Book Figures. If they just send me an email, I'd be happy to send them copies of both articles and my email addresses Marshall at Marshallgultswith.com and Marshall has two else. Cool. So let's stick on this daily questions for a bit. Why is it necessary to make sure

that you are asking active questions rather than passive ones? Well, there's nothing wrong with passive questions. Here's the issue. If you ask like employee engagement surveys, always ask passive questions. If you ask a person a service always ask passive questions. If you ask a person to pass a question we tend to blame the environment. For example, do you have clear goals?

People say no, why not? Well, they're confused. They have meaningful work. No, they make me do trivia. It's them, it's their fault. See, these active questions begin with the phrase, did I do my best too? And what's amazing about that phrase is, you cannot blame someone else. All you have to do is try.

You don't have to succeed. You don't even try. And that's why the active questions are so powerful. Let me give you the hardest question you could ever test yourself on every day. It has four qualities. And this is totally counterintuitive. Quality of number one is, you write the question. You write your own question. Why is that hard?

You can't blame the idiot that wrote the question. Number two, you know the answer. Why is that make it hard? You can't say you don't know how to do it. Number three, you know it's important. It's not trivial. And then finally, number four, all you have to do to make a high score is try.

You just have to try. Yeah. And you might ask why is that so difficult? No one to blame. It's very hard to look in the mirror every day. No one to blame. But yourself. And I've been doing this for years and I've learned about 95% of all of my problems. I can see in one place just looking in the mirror. It's very hard to face this for most people. And including me, by the way, it's hard to do this every day. That's why a woman called me. Yeah.

The thing I love about the daily questions is that it really helps to build a habit. You know, they say if you don't do something daily, your behavior doesn't change. You don't change yourself. So sticking on habits, you outline 20 habits that hold people back from reaching the top. Some examples are winning too much, adding too much value and playing favorites. We don't have time to cover all 20 in detail, but I'd love to run through some core themes that I picked out that relate to these 20 habits. Maybe let's start off with the theme of being too competitive.

So some habits you mentioned that I think fall into this category are winning too much with holding information, claiming credit when we don't deserve it, and failing to provide recognition. So can you talk to us about this type of, quote unquote, bad behavior and how it negatively impacts our relationships? Well, what happens is we have been programmed to succeed and win. Every one of your listeners, including you have have taken tests after tests after testing your life. And I looked up your background,

you're a very good student for point out grade average. You got a lot of reinforcement for doing one thing over and over and proving how smart you are. Over and over and over. And it's real tough when you've had as much reinforcement as you've had for proving how smart you are to stop doing that See it's hard

Every time you made those a's people pat you on the back. Oh, congratulations You're the valedictorian of the school and almost everyone I coach is just like you. They're real smart hardworking people What's hard when you take tests day after day after day? Not to just go through life proving how smart you are. Now, let me give you a couple examples of this. Winning too much. You want to go to restaurant X, your husband, wife, friend, or partner once go to restaurant Y.

You have heated argument. You go to restaurant Y. Food tastes awful and the service is terrible. Option A, you could critique the food and point out our partner was wrong. I mean, this mistake could have been avoided if only you'd listened to me, me, me. Or I can be, shut up.

Eat the stupid food, try to enjoy it and have a nice evening. What would I do? What should I do? Almost all of my clients, what would I do? Critique the food. What should I do? Shut up.

Well, it's very hard for smart, successful people not to critique the food. Another one even worse. You have a hard day at work. You go home. Your husband or my friend or partner is there. And the other person says, I had such a hard day today. I had such a tough day. And if we're not careful, we reply, you had a hard day. You had a hard day. You have any idea what I had to put up with today? You think you had a hard day? We're so competitive, we have to prove

we're miserable and people we live with. I gave the example to my class department. A young guy in the back raised his hand. He said, I did that last week. I asked him, what happened? He said, my wife looked at me. She said, honey, you just think you've had a hard day. It's not over. That's so funny. You know, why we have the urge to want to win so much? What's the meaning behind that? Like, why is that so inherent for humans? Well, we've been reinforced through our lives for winning and proving we're smart and right. And again, at the lower level of an organization,

it's really not so bad. You can't have to prove yourself. Every time you get promoted, though, you got to learn to stop doing that. And the worst thing you see you can do is try to prove how smart they are and win all the time. At that level you want to make everybody else who win or don't make it all about you. So it's a very difficult transition. One of my customers said for

the great individual achiever it's all about me. For the great leader it's all about them. You see it's hard to make this transition for me to an achiever which is mostly about me to be in a leader which is mostly about them. You see, it's hard to make this transition for me to an achiever, which is mostly about me to be a leader, which is mostly about them. Yeah. So let's talk about the habit of being negative. So always kind of giving negative feedback and also starting our sentences with no or but or however. Can you explain that habit to our listeners? Yes, one of the classic challenges of the smart people I coach is they tend to be a little stubborn.

Now, I'm assuming you're not stubborn, but many of the leaders that I coach are stubborn people. So one night I was having dinner with General Eric Shinseki's head of the United States Army, four-star general. When I'm surrounded by two to four-star generals, he said, Marshall, who is your favorite customer? I said, sir, my favorite customer, smart, dedicated, hard-working, driven to achieve creative entrepreneurial cares about the company and customers great values high

integrity. stubborn opinionated know it all and ever wants to be wrong. I said, sir, you think any of the generals in this very room may fit such a description. He said, Marshall, we have a target rich opportunity. Well, there's no but however, there's a classic problem with stubborn people. If someone talks to us, first word of the amount is no, would you say, shut up here long or bite? What does it bite me? Just regard everything you've said. One of my clients was stubborn and opinionated,

so I was reviewing his 360 feedback report. He said, but Marshall, I said, that's free. If you ever do that again, I'm going to find you $20. All the money goes to the charity of your choice. He said, but Marshall, I said, that's free. If you ever do that again, I'm going to find you $20. All the money goes to the charity of your choice. He said, but Marshall, 20, no, 40, no, no, no, 60, 800. He lost $420 in an hour and a half. At the end of the hour and a half, he said, thank you. He said, I had no idea. He said, I did that 21 times we throw in it in my face. How many times would I have done an engine up and throw it in my face? 50 times, 100 times? He said, no

wonder people think I'm stubborn. The first thing I do when people talk to me is I prove I know more than them or they're wrong over and over and over and over again. He got so much better being a good listener just by learning that. Yeah. A big takeaway I got from your book is that you need to sometimes just like pause and if you're going to say negative response or if you're going to say no or but start off with thank you instead and show your gratitude. And one of my favorite stories actually that you tell is about gratitude and self-control. You talk about being in the car with your wife, for example, maybe on the way to the airport

and getting loud with her for telling you to watch out for a red light. And I've had this happen to me with my boyfriend, maybe 10 times at least. So could you tell us about this story and share the lesson on why the best response? You can say when you're unsure or when you're gonna say something negative

is simply, thank you. Well, it's interesting, everyone says they want to encourage honest input. We want people to tell the truth and we don't want to punish the messenger. So I teach my classes. I always say, how many of you believe you should encourage honest input and encourage the truth? No one should nail up raise their hand, right? And I said, well, you wouldn't shoot the messenger, would you? Oh, no, no, of course not. Then I gave him this case study. You know, imagine you come home from work, you've had a hard day, you get in the car

to go to the store. You're driving the store lots of traffic. Cars are cutting in front of you, people honking their horns. The person in front seat goes, look out, there's a red light up ahead. You say thank you, or did you say, what do you mean there's a red light

doing anything? And see how they're going to drive this car. What do you mean quiet, let me drive. Well, almost everyone in the room shows plan B. So what was it cost to that person saying, hey, there's a red light up ahead, nothing. What could that have saved your life, their life, and then lives of other innocent people? Somebody gives us something that has a fantastic potential benefit and costs nothing. What should we say to this person?

Just say thank you. Just say thank you. And don't beat them up for telling you the truth. So let's talk about improving some of these bad behaviors. You were a pioneer of the use of 360 degree feedback. Can you tell us about this process? In my coaching, every leader that I work with gets confidential feedback from all of their key stakeholders. These will be their direct reports, their peers, their managers could be board members. And then they pick important behavior to improve. Then they go back and talk to people, saying,

thank you for this feedback. Here's what I've learned. Here's what I'm gonna do about it. They practice and feed forward. They don't ask for more feedback about the past ideas for the future. They don't critique the ideas, they shut up. They think people don't promise to do everything and then they follow

up on a regular basis. And the follow-up is, you know, two months ago, I said I want to be a better list and based on less two months. And then just for the next two, they follow, follow, follow, follow up and then we measure improvement. And again, the people who do this

stuff tend to get better. People who don't don't. We'll be right back after a click break from our sponsors. Hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now, but in case you don't, that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you sell edgy t-shirts or offer an educational course like me, Shopify simplifies selling

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and I highly respect her. She's been a guest on YAPP. She was a former social client. She's a podcast client. And I remember when she came on Young and Profiting and she talked about her conviction marketing framework, it was like mind blowing to me. I remember immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company

and the marketing efforts that we were doing. And as a marketer, I really, really respect all Kelly has done. All Kelly has built. In the corporate world, Kelly secured seven promotions in just eight years, but she didn't just stop there. She was working in nine to five. And at the same time, she built her eight figure company as a side hustle and eventually took it and made her full time hustle.

And her strategic business goals led her to win the prestigious Inc 500 award for the fastest growing business in the United States. She's built an empire. She's earned a life changing wealth. And on top of all that, she maintains a happy marriage and healthy home life. On the Kelly Road Show, you'll learn that it's possible to have it all. Tune into the Kelly Road Show as she unveils her secrets for growing your business. It doesn't matter if you're just starting out in your career or if you're already a seasoned entrepreneur. In each episode,

Kelly shares the truth about what it takes to create rapid, exponential growth. Unlock your potential, unleash your success, and start living your dream life today. Tune into the Kelly Road Show, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, ya fam! As you may know, I've been a full-time entrepreneur for three years now.

Yet media blew up so fast, it was really hard to keep everything under control, but things have settled a bit, and I'm really focused on revamping and improving our company culture. I have 16 employees, so it's a lot of people to try to rally and motivate. And I recently had best selling author Kim Scott on the show. And after previewing her content in our conversation, I just knew I had to take her class on master class, tackle the hard conversations with radical candor

to really absorb all she has to offer. And now I'm using her radical candor method every day with my team to give in solicit feedback, to cultivate a more inclusive culture, and to empower them with my honesty. And I can see my team feeling more motivated and energized already. They are really receptive to this framework,

and I'm so happy because I really needed this class. With masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace. And we all know that profiting in life doesn't just mean thriving in business. With masterclass, you can brush up on your art skills or your cooking skills or even your modeling skills

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from the world's best? A lot. But with Masterclass annual memberships, it just cost you $10 a month. I have to say the most surprising thing about Masterclass, since I started this incredible journey on the platform, is the value. For the quality of classes, instructors, the platform

itself is beautiful. The videos are super high quality. You can't beat it. Gain new skills and as little as 10 minutes on your phone, your computer, tablet, smart TV, and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go. That way, I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now as the app listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com slash profiting. That's masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off an annual membership masterclass.com slash profiting. So I'm not sure which book this was in exactly, but you say that people change their ways when they feel like something they truly value

is being threatened. Can you talk about this and maybe also talk about some of the big excuses people have for change? Well, change is hard. And if we're gonna change anything, we really have to have that kind of a what's in it for me in terms of value. And that's why feedback is important.

Most people do value their families. And they get feedback from their families that they're not doing a good job. They want to get better. Most people value their co-workers. They get feedback from their co-workers. They're not doing a good job. They want to get better. So that's really important. In my book triggers, I talk about why we don't do all this stuff we know we should. And there are a variety of reasons. Years ago, my biggest client was Johnson and Johnson. At the end of my class, about 98% of the people said that we're going to do what I thought. A year later, about 70% had done something that they're presented done nothing. I'm not ashamed of these numbers. I'm very proud. 70% of 2,000 people

is 1,400 people getting evaluated by 10 coworkers each. Yeah. About, you know, 14,000 people have a little better life, so I'm proud of that. And I got to interview the people who did nothing. And I said, why'd you do nothing? Well, the answer's had nothing to do with ethics values or integrity. They went in a word that you're most ethical, company, and the world are good people. I'm sure your listeners are good people.

I know to do with intelligence, they're smart. I'm sure your listeners are smart. The reason people did nothing had to do with the dream. The dream I've had for years, and I would bet even at your young age, you've already had this dream. The dream sounds like this. You know, I'm incredibly busy right now. You've even worked at home in new technology that follows me everywhere, in emails and voice, and global competition. I feel about as busy as I ever have. Sometimes I feel overcommented. Every now and again, my life feels just a little bit

out of control. But you know, I'm working on some very unique and special challenges right now. And I think the worst of this is going to be over in four or five months. And after that, I'm going to take two or three weeks and get organized. And spend some time with the family

and begin my new healthy life program that everything is going to be different and it won't be crazy anymore. Have you ever had a dream that resembled that dream? Yeah. How many years? Well you know what I'm very much the person who doesn't believe in being busy and it's a matter of prioritizing but as a younger person I definitely acted like that yeah. Good good good good good and so it's a matter of prioritizing. But as a younger person, I definitely acted like that, yeah. Good, good, good, good. And so it's really important and we use all kinds of excuses.

Another excuse is one of my favorites is called, it's a special name. You know, I'm going on that diet, but it's a super bowl. So I'm gonna eat that super bowl pizza and guacamole or it's mine, birthday, or it's my kids' birthday, or my boss friend's birthday,

or my mother's birthday, you know, it's somebody's birthday. So if we're not careful, we can make up this special day excuse to cover almost every day. Every day is a little special or different and makes an excuse. And so in my book, Triggers,

I talk about all these wonderful excuses we have and keep us from doing what we know we should. And it's hard, it's hard to face the reality of our lives. That's why the daily question processes are hard. Yeah. So let's move on to triggers since we're already talking about it. Can you explain to our listeners what a behavioral trigger is? Well, triggers in any stimulus that might impact our behavior.

It could be a side, a sound, a word, a person. Any stimulus that impacts our behavior and as we journey through life. You know, we all have this image of the person that we want to become. Why don't we become this person? Well, every day we journey through life, we have these triggers, these events that occur, these sites, and they usually sometimes push us toward becoming that person, but usually pushes away from becoming that person. Somebody says something, we become angry, we go off the handle, the driving case study, you smell something, you food you

didn't want to eat, you told yourself you shouldn't eat. So as we journey through life, very important to realize what are the triggers in my life that really set off behavior that's inconsistent with the person I want to become, and how can I, number one, anticipate these triggers? So then I can start becoming aware of them before they happen and anticipate them, if possible, avoid them. And if not possible to avoid them, at least not how to adjust my behavior,

so that I'm not being controlled by these triggers. And if you look at life, you can say, how much do I control and how much am I controlled? And you can look at different dimensions. If you've ever been to motivational speech, they're always the same. You know, you can do it, you can do it, it's all up to you, you can do it, or the book, the secret. If I envision it, it will happen.

Well, you know, it's partly true and partly not so true. The other view is we're like a pinball machine, pinball bouncing through life and BF Skinner, the Harvard psychologist basically, said that we're just controlled by triggers in our environment. We have no control. Well, in my book triggers, I think they're both a little bit true. We have some control. And part of my life is a function of what I can control, and part of it is I am being controlled. And the whole idea of the book is really to just balance the equation a little bit more in terms of I'm in charge

of my own life and a little bit less of I'm just being manipulated by my environment. Yeah. Before we move on to environment, let's just dig deeper into habits and triggers and feedback loops. Specifically, I'd like you to explain what a feedback loop is to our listeners. So it's comprised of four stages, evidence, relevance, consequence, and action. Could you maybe walk us through a real-life example of a feedback loop

so that our listeners could really understand what it is? Well, you're driving your car and you see a sign that says speed limit 30 miles an hour coming up in a small town And it was evidence that something's gonna happen and then how important is it we think I might get a ticket and then eventually I think that's relevant and then you've got this evidence Which would lead to a consequence which is something bad and you ultimately end up changing your behavior So as we go through life We're constantly giving the opportunity to deal with these feedback loops. And the important thing is to say, all right, am I being sensitive enough to these feedback loops?

Am I aware of what's really going on around me? At first, you have a little child. The little child says, you know, I miss you, Mommy. What does that mean? How can I process this? And the coworker who seems upset, being able to read your environment as best you can so that you're learning from the environment at all times, and then you're able to make adjustments in your behavior that fit the needs of the people in your environment. Yeah.

So, when it comes to triggers, is the key to be aware of them and learn how to avoid or replace those triggers? First become aware what are the triggers that set me off then if you can avoid the triggers avoid them for example if you want to quit drinking don't go to bars. You want to quit smoking don't smoke if you want to quit eating chocolate get chocolate, get chocolate out of your house. Because when the stimulus is there, you're much more likely to do it. So just avoid it if you can, as the first thing. But sometimes you can't avoid it. So if you can't avoid it,

then you're gonna need to learn to adjust, to adjust your behavior. So it kind of fits that. You know, look, I love chocolate. I can't get it all the house because my wife likes to eat it too. And she wants it to be here, but I need to realize when I see this chocolate, I'm going to be tempted to eat it.

So I have to adjust my behavior so that I don't. Yeah. And like you mentioned, like a big trigger is your environment. So in your book, you say, if we do not create and control our environment, our environment creates and controls us, you call the environment things like the devil and that we should treat it like our enemy. Why such the hard feelings could you dig into that a little deeper?

Well, what happens is I'm reading a book now called Deep Work by Kel Peterson, I think. And it's a great book. It talks about social media and how we can become completely addicted to social media in a way that's not healthy. The average kid is flunking out of school in the United States spends 55 hours a week on non-academic media. So, yeah, it's like an addiction. And it talks about how Facebook can be addicted of indepressing.

The more hours you spend on Facebook, the more depressed you tend to be. For two reasons. One, you see all these fake lives. You know, the vacation is always positive and the kids are always beautiful and you think, gee, my life isn't as good as that. Well, nobody's life is that good. It's a fake life. Or you're posting fake lives and you realize that's not really me anyway. It's depressing either way.

So I think, you know, very important to realize that we are bombarded by stimulus and this hasn't become less real in the New World. This has been a lot more real and we need to really back away and say, am I being controlled by this or am I controlling this? And if you're not careful, we end up being controlled by this. So when I was a professor at Dartmouth, the young man used to drive me a limo driver back and forth and he flunked out of school. He's been 25,000 hours of his life playing a video game, World of Warcraft, 25,000 hours. You can get two PhDs in 25,000 hours. You played a video game. Well, that's an addiction. So you really need to be sensitive to how much am I controlling this and how much is this controlling me? Yeah. Can you talk about some of the ways that we can change our habits? We talked about the daily questions, but are there any other commitment devices that we can employ?

Get help. In the same way that, you know, I have help, I have someone call me every day. Why? I need help. If you haven't fixed it by yourself in the last 10 that, you know, I have help. I have someone call me every day. Why? I need help. If you haven't fixed it by yourself in the last 10 years, you're probably not going to fix it by yourself next week. Just admit you need help and it's okay to need help. Like I said, my book triggers. Look at the names of the people who are saying, book, I'm CEO of the United States, I need help. I'm with the presidential mellow freedom, I need help. I'm head of the world's largest pharmaceutical company, I need help. I'm president of World Bank, I need help. Well, they're not too good to get help. So don't be above getting help because we almost all need help. And again, if you could do it by yourself, you would have done it by now. Yeah.

So you have these concepts of magic moves. Two of them we covered the power of asking active questions, asking for help, which you just covered. But we didn't cover two of them. Apology and optimism. Could you tell us more about these magic moves? Well, let's start with apology. Very important. All of my clients do this. They all get confidential feedback. Another member of feedback is perfect. So, all they have things to approve. So the first thing I tell them is they say they apologize. Say, for example, you know, I've gotten feedback indicates I need to be a better listener. If I've not listened to you or other people, I'm sorry, please accept my apology. There's no excuse.

Well, if you want everybody else to take responsibility as a leader, let them watch you take responsibility. Let them watch you take responsibility. And that's, you know, a very important message to send a role model to people. Don't try to be better than everybody else. Just be a fellow human being and everybody takes responsibility. The other one's optimism and this has been studied to death. I mean, if you don't believe you're going to do something, you probably won't. If you tell yourself, I can't do this. That's just the way I am. Well, you're probably right. You can't do it. And that's just

the way you are. You have to tell yourself, why am I saying this is just the way I am? Why am I saying I can't do this unless you have an incurable genetic defect, you can probably change. Well, since almost no one I coach has incurable genetic defects, they can all get better. You know, you can't make yourself taller. Optimism won't make yourself taller, but you can become a better listener or better with people. You can be better giving recognition. These are all positive things you can change. Not things you can't change. Yeah. One thing that we didn't get to touch on that I think is actually really important, and you just say, alluded to it, is listening. What makes listening so powerful?

Well, you know, if you want to show concern for other people, you need to be able to listen. What is the message you can indicate to people when you're not listening? I don't want to care about what we have to say. Or you. And one thing I teach people on listening, this is somewhat counterintuitive as this. A lot of people think we don't listen not by what we say but how we look. So I was trying to teach my clients pretend you're on video and you're going to be judged by doing look like you care. Number one will probably help you be a better listener but people will feel you're a better listener. Now have you ever had this happen before? Has anyone ever looked at you and said you're not listening? Yeah. And then if you ever repeated what they said, verbatim to prove they were wrong, well, that

doesn't really help the relationship. When somebody says you're not listening, what they're really saying is you don't care. You see, if you look like you cared, no one would ever say you're not listening, what they're really saying is you don't look like you care. And the higher up you go, the more important this becomes. At the CEO level, this is critically important. Let's say I'm in a meeting. I've heard this presentation 20 times before.

I know everything it's going to be said. It's been vetted 12 times before I see it. On the other hand, if I look bored and disinterested, the young person making a presentation, this will break their heart. It'll feel terrible. So I teach people, look, you got to look like you care, and that's not being a phony, that's being a professional.

You got to communicate to that person what you're saying is important to me, and not just to what you say, and how you look. And if you don't, just be devastated. So it's a great lesson to learn at all levels of management when you're younger, it's important when you're older, it's important. Yeah, totally agree. So, to close out the episode, you have an article on ink.com that's called, do you have Mojo or Nojo?

And I thought it would be a cute and memorable way to end the show. Could you tell our listeners the difference between Mojo and Nojo? Mojo is that positive spirit towards life, which starts on the inside and radiates to the outside. And you see that when you go to the store, check into the hotel at the airport, you know, it's that positive spirit which radiates to the outside, and no Joe is exactly the opposite.

It's that negative spirit which radiates to the outside. That spirit says, I don't wanna be here, I don't like this, so it happened, I don't wanna talk to you. So I think very important as we journey through life to look at two things. One, generating that positive spirit inside ourselves. And going back to those questions,

am I doing my best today to be happy? Am I doing my best to find meaning? Am I doing my best to be engaged, build relationships, generating that positive spirit inside yourself? And then number two, back to, imagine you're on video, communicating that positive spirit to everyone around you. And I think as you mentioned a couple times, even more important at home than it is at work, communicating that spirit of, I'm happy to see you. I love you. You're important to me. And good to do those good things at work, even better to do them at home. And how about No Joe?

Well, No Joe is the opposite. That's, you know, I'm frustrated. I'm angry. I don't want to be here to go away. I'm going to, I say American Airlines, I have over 11 million Frickle fly miles. I want a three hour flight. One flight at 10. It's positive. I'm motivated up. We didn't do the abstract. And the other is negative bit or angry and cynical. I'm sure you've been on the same flight. Well, what's the difference? It's not American Airlines. It's the flight attendant. Are you ready? I like everybody. Take a deep breath. Imagine you're 95 years old and you're just getting ready to die. Right before you take that last breath, you're giving a beautiful gift.

The ability to go back in time and talk to the person that's listening to me right now. The ability to have that person be a better leader and have a happier life. What advice would that wise old person have for the young person that's listening to me right now? Well, whatever your listeners are thinking now, do that. Terms that are performed surprisingly, that's the only one that matters. That old person sees you did the right thing you did. That old person sees you made a mistake you did. You don't have to impress anybody else. So, my friends interviewed old folks who are dying.

I got this, this question. What advice would you have? On the personal side, three things. Thing number one, three words. Be happy now. Not next week, not next month, not next year. Be happy now. The Great Western disease, I'll be happy when.

When I get that money status, BNW, condominium, well, I have the same win. Learning points from old people. I got so busy looking for what I didn't have, I couldn't see what I did have, I had everything. All your listeners, many of them are smart people, hardworking people, good people, compared to me, young people. Don't get so focused on what you don't have, you can't see what you do. Learning point number two on the personal side we've discussed several times,

friends and family. You realize these people are important. And number three is you have a dream go for it. Because you don't go for it when you're 35, you may not when you're 85 and that doesn't have to be a big one. Maybe a little one. Go to New Zealand, speak Spanish, whatever it is, just do it. Business advice in which there for number one, life is short, have fun. Number two is do whatever you can do to help people. And the main reason

is that it's nothing to do with money or status for getting ahead. Main reason to do it is the 95 year old deal will be proud of you because you did and disappointed, you should don't. And then finally, go for it. Old people, we almost never regret the risk we take and fail. We always regret the risk we fail to take. And finally, thank you so much for asking me to be on your podcast. And I hope that it's been useful to your listeners and help them have a little better life.

It has. So where can our listeners go to find more about you and everything that you do? Send me an email, Marshall with twoelznetmarshagulsment.com. Website, I've got 300 videos online, www.marshagulsment.com. Go to any of these sites and I have you stuff on LinkedIn, 1.3 million followers.

I can't do anymore LinkedIn connections because they tap out after I think 30 or 40,000, but I can do more followers. So go to any of those sites and I'm happy to share everything I know with everyone. Awesome. It was such an honor. I want to be respectful of our time.

So thank you so much for joining Young and Profiting Podcast. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. And I hope we get to see you in New York sometime. All right, Young and Profiters. Are you as hyped as me to have Marshall back on the podcast later this May? If you're nodding your head, yes, then give me a Marshall some love

by dropping us a five star review to share your feedback on this episode. Giving us a review is the number one way to show your appreciation to me and everybody else who works on the show. Alright, so let's jump into some quick takeaways from this episode. For me, the main takeaway is to not be afraid to ask for help and feedback. We only get better if we work together and no matter what stage you are at in your career, we all have things that we need to work on.

Sometimes these things are things we are actually oblivious to that everybody knows, but us. So if you wanna become a better leader, employee, even a friend or a partner, you've got to ask for feedback. Whether you try Marshall's 360 degree feedback, his feed forward technique, or a different method, the key is to listen closely. Show gratitude, and then follow up. By following up, you can test yourself if you're really making meaningful changes, or

if you're slipping back into your old habits and patterns. Also, you can hold yourself accountable. You can ask yourself and answer the daily questions that begin with, did I do my best to dot, dot, dot? And this is a great way to start habits, gauge how you're growing, and see what you need to work on long term. And lastly, work to break those bad habits that hold you back. Pay attention to your reactions and your actions. Stop and correct yourself if a certain bad habit like negativity or your competitive nature

keeps resurfacing. And if you feel inclined, you can even ask others to help remind you, or you can set up a consequence for yourself. I love this idea. I'm sure you guys all had a family friend or even your own family that used a swear jar when somebody cursed and they had to drop a quarter in a jar. You can do things like this, even small ramifications like this can serve as a reminder and help set up that feedback loop that can break those bad habits once and for all.

Okay, so let's keep replacing those habits that hold us back with habits that level us up and hit me up on Instagram and Twitter at Yapathala or you can find me on LinkedIn by searching Hala Taha. Thanks so much for listening and thanks thanks to my app team for their support and encouragement, this is Hala, signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author

of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as Follow the One Minute Rule. Choose a one word theme for the year or design

your summer. We also feature segments like Know Yourself better where we discuss questions like are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever. And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happy. Listen and follow the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. You're getting a diploma. You can't eat a diploma, but you can eat wings and charles. Get 23% off any order of 30 or 50 piece wings when you use promo code 23 grad at Charlie's dot com

That's promo code 23 GRAD at Charlie's dot com Charlie's as wings