Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Jonah Berger on How to Change Anyone's Mind

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Starting point is 00:00:42 Hey AppFam, today we're replaying my first interview with Jonah Berger, a full-time professor at Wharton University and a world-renowned expert on change, influence, and consumer behavior. He's also the best-selling author of four books on persuasion, influence, and the psychology of language. In this app classic, Jonah explains why people are resistant to change and how we can counteract that. We'll learn why people enjoy part-taking in forbidden change and how we can counteract that. We'll learn why people enjoy partaking in forbidden behaviors and how we can successfully

Starting point is 00:01:08 encourage them not to. And Jonah will teach us how to think like a seasoned negotiator by asking the right questions. If you want to learn how to change anyone's mind, this episode is for you. Without further ado, enjoy my interview with Jonah Berger. Hey Jonah, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation. You are a world-renowned expert on the science of social influence, consumer behavior, and

Starting point is 00:01:37 how products, ideas, and behaviors catch on. I personally love these conversations. We always talk about persuasion and influence on young and profiting podcasts. So I can't wait to dive into it all and your book, The Catalyst. So first off, I'd love to learn more about you and your journey and how you found yourself here. From our research, we found out that you grew up in DC

Starting point is 00:01:56 and all throughout school, you tested at genius levels. So curious to understand why you decided to study human behavior and what got you interested in all of this? I don't know who said I tested a genius levels, but that's very generous of them. You know, I've always been interested in science. I've always been interested in how things work. I grew up, I went to a magnet high school for math, science, and computer science, but

Starting point is 00:02:20 I was particularly interested in applying those tools to the social sciences, right? So experimentation is great. Research is great, data is great, but can we use those same tools to understand human behavior? When I was growing up as a kid, I used to have ads up on my wall. It's like my favorite Nike ad or my favorite this ad or my favorite that ad. And I started to wonder, you know, why are some ads more effective than others? Why does some products become popular? Why does some things catch on while others fail?

Starting point is 00:02:47 Why do we do what we do? And I started realizing that there was an opportunity to study that. I was actually in college and I was doing a major called science, technology, and society, where they look at the interaction between society and sort of science and tech. And we're reading this article about how the way we build buildings affects how people raise their children. So if you think about it, you live in a sort of a one-story home with a yard outside, your kids' flat, front with the neighbors, you live in a big tall apartment building, there's

Starting point is 00:03:15 further down to the ground, harder for parents to see what the kids are up to. And so maybe the parents are less willing to let their kids out. And so it's interesting to think about, well, wow, building design might affect the way kids grow up. And I sort of asked the professor, I was like, hey, you know, there are other courses you'd recommend or I could learn more about this stuff. And they said social psychology. And so I started taking social psychology courses.

Starting point is 00:03:37 I started doing research. I was fortunate enough to do some research with a guy named Chip Heath, who now we know from books like Made to Stick and Decisive and others. And it really kind of started my journey into doing research to study sort of who we are and what we do. That is a perfect segue to your new book, The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind.

Starting point is 00:03:58 There's so many interesting nuggets I don't want to waste any time getting right into it. So let's get a good understanding of how people change starting with what doesn't work. So typically we tend to persuade and pressure and push, but even after all that work, nothing seems to move. And a lot of us think that we can just provide more information, provide more facts, more reasons, more arguments, and then people will end up changing, but that's not the case. In your book, you say that this approach assumes that most people are like marbles, push them in one direction, and they'll go that way, but people aren't like marbles, so tell us about that.

Starting point is 00:04:31 Yeah, you know, I did a survey a few years ago, and so I was starting to think about this area and trying to sort of think about whether there might be a new way to get people to change. And so I did a survey of executives and individuals across a wide variety of industries. So everybody from the C suite all the way on down entrepreneurs, people that worked at big businesses, B2B, B2C, and I asked them two questions. I said, hey, what is something that you want to change, anything at all? And then second, what's something you've tried to do to change it? And so people gave an array of different responses. Some people talked about trying to change a client's mind, some people talked about trying to change it. And so people gave an array of different responses. Some people talked about trying to change a client's mind, some people talked about trying to change consumer behavior,

Starting point is 00:05:08 leaders talked about transforming organizations, nonprofits talked about changing industries, startups talked about changing the world. But when it came down to what they had tried, for over 98% of the responses I got back, it was some version of pushing. And what do I mean by pushing? Well, let me add more facts, more figures, more reasons, more information. If I just tell you why, this is a good idea. If I could just explain to you, give you more information you would come around. Let me make one more phone call, one more pitch, send one more email if I'm a salesperson,

Starting point is 00:05:41 for example. You know, if I just push people a little harder, they'll go. And it's clear why we think that, right? You mentioned a marble, but we can even more simply think about a chair. If you're in a room and there's a chair, pushing is a great way to get that chair to go, put a pressure on one side and the chair slides across the floor. But when we apply that same intuition to people, it gets a little bit stickier, right? Because when we push people, they don't just slide across the floor, right? Often they dig in their heels, they push back, they think about all the reasons why they don't want to do what we suggested.

Starting point is 00:06:12 And so rather than pushing, we really need to take a different approach. Yeah. And as I was reading your book, I couldn't help but think I have a marketing agency. And so we're very successful. I have 70 people around the world who work for me. But you know, I don't land every deal, right, that I talked to. And when I was thinking back about some of the bigger deals that I've lost, it was me, like, overly trying to convince them with, like, use cases and references and this and that. And so it's just so funny to think about, like, the times

Starting point is 00:06:42 where I didn't necessarily do that, how I won the deal, and how it really turns people off when you just overly trying to convince them. Yeah, and I think you know there's a need analogy we made to chemistry here, and I don't know if you were going to talk about that soon, but if it's okay, I'll talk about it now for a second. But if you look at chemical change, it's really hard, right? So you think about a diamond, for example. It didn't start out a diamond.

Starting point is 00:07:04 It started being carbon that was squeezed together through eons of time and temperature and pressure. Gasoline was once plant matter and animal this and that, and it took a long time to get there. If you look in the lab, what chemists often do is they add temperature and pressure to create change. They heat things up, they squeeze it together to create change, but there's a special set of substances that chemists use to make change happen faster and easier. They don't require more temperature and more pressure. They do everything from cleaning the grime on our contact lenses to clean the grime on our car's engine. And multiple Nobel Prizes have been won for innovations in the space. And very simply, these substances are called catalysts. Right? And when we think

Starting point is 00:07:42 about catalysts in the social world, think that person was a change agent, that thing was a catalyst. But catalysts actually is a very specific meaning. What's so neat about them is they allow change to happen with less energy, not more. Rather than pushing so much, they identify the barriers or the obstacles to change and they mitigate them. That's really what I've thought a lot about over the past few years, and this approach is all about not pushing harder, but identifying the obstacles or barriers and mitigating them. And that's really what I've thought a lot about over the past few years. And this approach is all about not pushing harder, but identifying the obstacles or barriers and mitigating them.

Starting point is 00:08:09 It's almost like, imagine you're in a car. So you get in a walk out of a game or pick your kids up at the this or go into the office and your car is parked on a hill and you get in the car, you stick your key to the ignition, you turn your key and you step your foot on the gas. If the car doesn't go, we just think we need more gas. And the same thing happens with that potential client, that potential customer, that person that we're trying to sell something. We just think if we step on that gas a little more,

Starting point is 00:08:37 they'll go, but here's the problem. If that parking brake is pulled up, we can step on the gas all we want, and the car, or the person isn't going to go anywhere. And so the key insight is how can we be better at finding those parking brakes? How can we be better at identifying the obstacles or the barriers that are getting in the way? And by mitigating them, make change more likely. It's not about pushing hard, it's not more facts, more figures, more reasons, more pressure.

Starting point is 00:09:02 It's about figuring out what's getting in the way and moving those barriers. Yes, and I know that in your book, you say that asking a question like, why hasn't that person changed already can really help us start on the right foot when it comes to persuading others. So what kind of questions can we ask ourselves or ask other people to kind of understand the barriers that are at play? Yeah, you know, you mentioned negotiators and it reminded me I talked to a couple of awesome negotiators in writing this book and they told a great story with they basically said, look, new negotiators, novice negotiators, the first thing they do is they want to jump to influence. They want to start by saying, how can I get you, whoever you are, to do whatever it is that I want? And that often doesn't work, right? And, to do whatever it is that I want?

Starting point is 00:09:45 And that often doesn't work, right? It often backfires us. We'll talk about probably in a couple of minutes, the more you push people, the more they push back, the more they just like that, that would think we talked about before. They dig in their heels. What season negotiators do is they start with the person they're trying to change. They start with understanding. They start by understanding them and what those obstacles or barriers are.

Starting point is 00:10:04 And only then do they move to influence. You can think about the same thing with a doctor, right? You don't go to the doctor and the doctor isn't start by saying let me put a cast on your leg. The doctor starts by saying, well, let me tell you what the problem is. What's the issue? What are you looking for? What do you need? And they use that diagnostic to help figure out the solution. And so whether we're a sales person, whether we're an entrepreneur, whatever it is,

Starting point is 00:10:27 I think starting with the same ideas. Find the root. What is that underlying thing that's driving what the person is doing or not doing, and use questions to figure out, collect that information, understand what they need before you try to change them. When I do a consulting project

Starting point is 00:10:43 or pitching for a consulting project, I always start by saying, well, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to change them. When I do a consulting project or pitching for a consulting project, I always start by saying, well, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to achieve here? What are you trying to get out of this? What are you looking for someone to offer? And then by understanding what they need, I can say, okay, great. Well, here's how I think, given what you're looking for, I can fit best. Rather than jumping into a pitch that I have given a hundred thousand times, that's great, but may not be the best fit for them, starting with them. It not only shows that you care, which I think is good, but it gives you more information to help you show them that you are the best solution for what they need. And I think

Starting point is 00:11:17 that's a key insight, whether you're a hostage-gocheted or a salesperson or otherwise, starting with them really helps you get to the best place for you as well. 100% reminds me of that quote, to be interesting, you've got to be interested. And questions in general are just so important. Questions make people feel like you're listening, makes people feel like you care about them, and they feel good, they like you more. And we're going to learn more about questions and why they're impactful in this discussion later on.

Starting point is 00:11:45 Okay, so in the catalyst, you give readers five key barriers to change. Reactants, endowment, distance, uncertainty, and corroborating evidence. Let's discuss a few of them because we don't have time to discuss them all. So in terms of reactants, why is it so important to let people

Starting point is 00:12:01 make their own decisions? Yeah, is there any if I tell a story here? Of course. Okay, so a few years ago tied, owned by Procter and Gamble, wanted to make doing laundry faster and easier. Doing laundry is not that difficult, not impossible, but you never know exactly how much you're detergent to add. Sometimes you spill it on your hands or the counter and it turns out to be better if some

Starting point is 00:12:23 detergent went in early in the cycle and other detergent went in late. You can't do that with liquid or powder detergent. So they spend a bunch of money on R&D and end up coming out with these things called tie pots. Basically, set it and forget it. The one that has little colorful things in the laundry and it takes care of the problem. They spend a hundred million dollars on marketing. And they hope it takes a big chunk of the over billion dollar laundry industry. They release them. They're doing okay, but then they hit a snack, which is that people are eating them. You chuckle, I'm sure many people in the audience sort of gulped a little bit. You might sit there going, what do you mean, people are eating them, right?

Starting point is 00:13:00 I mean, if they filled with chemicals, yes, they're filled with chemicals, and yes, people are eating them. There is a video online that showed them melted on top of a pizza There was an image saying they looked good enough to eat and suddenly mostly young people were challenging one another to eat Tidepots called the tide pod challenge as many of you can remember Imagine you're a tight executive in this situation. You're sitting there going I mean You're sitting there going, I mean, how did this happen? How did this happen? People should know not to eat these things,

Starting point is 00:13:26 but just in case we'll do it companies often do when they don't know what to do, which is we will put out oppressories. Telling people, don't eat tide pods, right? And in case that's not enough, we'll do it in companies. Also do when they don't know what to do, which is higher celebrity. Rob Grunk, Grunkowski, to put big public service

Starting point is 00:13:44 now, it's saying don't eat tide pods tide pods. They told people not to do it. Grunk told people not to do it. They thought that would be enough. So if you look at the data, you see something interesting. So it's a little bit of attention, a little bit of attention. Tide releases their announcement. Now, the hope is that it will stem interest in the tide pod challenge. It will go down. People won't be interested anymore. But it turns out the exact opposite happens. There's a 400% increase in searches for the TidePod challenge, and it's not just parents wondering what their kids are up to. Visits to Poison Control shoot up as well. In the next two weeks, more people come into Poison Control than had in the two years prior, and basically a warning became a recommendation.

Starting point is 00:14:22 Telling people not to do something made them more likely to do it. Now, you could look at this example and say, that's nuts, you know, kids are crazy, what's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's actually just one example of a much broader phenomenon, and that is reactants. At the core, when pushed, people push back, whether we're pushing people to do something, or they're pushing them not to do something, right, They have an ingrained motive to push back against us. And so I'm happy to talk more about why that is, but I think that's a really great example of this underlying idea. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.

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Starting point is 00:19:37 for them? Yeah, I mean, I think the tied example is certainly an estranged one, but this happens all the time, right? It's not just if something's dangerous we push back, even when someone tries to get us to do something, we become less likely to do it. And the reason why, essentially, is we like being in the driver's seat, right? It's all about freedom and autonomy.

Starting point is 00:19:56 Why do I make this choice? Why did I buy this product? Why did I use this service? Why did I work with this supplier? Why did I agree to do whatever it might be? I did it because I wanted to. I'm in the driver's seat, I'm making my choices. But as soon as we, whether we are an entrepreneur, whether we are a colleague, whether we are a marketer, whether we are a salesperson, whoever we are, or a boss, however, whoever we are, as soon as we come and we

Starting point is 00:20:18 say, hey, you should do this. Now it's no longer clear as in the driver's seat, right? Are they in the driver's seat or are we in the driver's seat? they in the driver seat or are we in the driver seat? And the more it feels like we're in the driver seat, the less interested they are in doing what we want. Essentially, people have an ingrained antipersuasion radar. So you can think about it like a missile defense system or something that's sort of scanning the environment for incoming projectiles.

Starting point is 00:20:42 When they detect one, they engage in a set of defensive actions. So think about what happens when you're watching TV and then add comes on. You change the channel, you leave the room. Think what happens when you get a piece of direct mail. That's someone you're not expecting. You throw it away. Think what happens when you get a pitch over email or a phone call from a telemarker. You hang up the phone, you delete the email. All these cases, we avoid or ignore the message. We engage in a set of defensive actions to avoid being persuaded, but it's not just those.

Starting point is 00:21:11 Even worse is counter-arguing. And some of you are probably doing this right now, right? Yes, someone is listening to us. We're pitching, we're talking, we're suggesting something. They're listening, but they're not just listening. They're thinking about all the reasons why what we're suggesting is wrong. Why it's too expensive, why it won't work, why it won't integrate with what they're doing already, whatever it might be, poking and prodding the argument till it comes crumbling down.

Starting point is 00:21:36 And so I think the key insight is we can't push people. We have to allow for autonomy. We have to give them back some sense of freedom and control and put them back in the driver's seat. Awesome. And we're going to talk about strategies and tactics to put them back in the driver's seat. But before we do, when you were talking about getting people like not only does this happen when we're saying don't do something. So the government says, you know, don't drink and drive, don't smoke cigarettes.

Starting point is 00:22:00 That doesn't work. But it also, the same thing goes if we say eat less fat or take your vaccine for COVID-19. And so as I was reading a book, I think you wrote it before COVID because you didn't have any of that in there. And I'm sure you would have if you had written it in the COVID world. But you must have seen the CDC and how they approached getting people to take their vaccines. And I would love to hear like your thoughts about what they could have done better or what they did good or what they did bad. I think it's so interesting. Yeah, so I had the bad fortune to release this book

Starting point is 00:22:35 basically two days before COVID hit. And so I launched against a much more formidable opponent than I predicted. And so everything shut down from bookstores to, no one was interested in buying books at the moment. Everyone was interested in figuring out what was going on with COVID. And so in some sense, it was a terrible time to release a book, but it was also an amazing time to release a book on change. And that so much of what I had talked about played out

Starting point is 00:23:01 in the world. And so I wrote a piece for HBR about a month into the pandemic initially, about how some of these strategies could be applied. And it's amazing when we talk about these things. I mean, this is exactly part of the problem, right? What did the government say? What did the CDC say?

Starting point is 00:23:16 They said, first off, don't go to stores. Don't shop anywhere. Get a vaccine. Wear a mask. Don't do this. Do that. Basically, if you want someone to do someone, tell them to do it. If you don't want them to do something, tell them not to do it. And the challenge with this, right, is even if everyone would have done it that

Starting point is 00:23:34 originally, hey, nobody wants to be unsafe, nobody's interested in getting sick or hurting themselves. But the more they feel like somebody else is telling them what to do, particularly the government for some people, the less interested they become in doing it, right? They would have been fine if they came to that decision themselves, but because they feel like someone else is telling them what to do, they're less likely to do it. And so, you know, we'll talk about some of these strategies, but I wrote a lot in the piece about how we could use these strange strategies to deal with COVID, not telling people do this or don't do that,

Starting point is 00:24:06 but encouraging them to come to that conclusion themselves. In some sense, guiding them down a journey to encourage them to move in a direction, but not forcing them in that direction. The more they feel forced, the more they feel cornered, the less interested they are in doing what we want.

Starting point is 00:24:21 It's super interesting and feel free to use that as an example as we go through and talk about some of these strategies. So let's talk about one of the strategies that you talk about in terms of counteracting reactants. And that's to let people choose their own path, give them a menu of options, so to speak. So how does that help?

Starting point is 00:24:38 Yeah, so let's go back to a simple example we talked about, right? You're pitching something, okay? You're pitching something to a potential clients or a potential user or whatever they might be. What do we tend to do? We tend to pitch them one option. This is what I think you should do. This is why I am the best choice for you. This is why this product or service is the best choice for you. This is what I think you should do. And we've all been in that meeting, right? Everyone's sitting there shaking their head. Really, if we opened up their head, if we could do that, what would

Starting point is 00:25:04 be going on inside is counter-arguing. This is why it's not going to work. This is why someone else might be better. This is why I should do something else, sort of poking and prodding that argument. And so what great catalyst, what great change agents do, is they don't just give people one option, they give them multiple. They say, hey, I think you should do X or Y. Which one do you think is better?

Starting point is 00:25:27 And notice what that does, right? It's subtly, but importantly shifts the role of the listener. Rather than sitting there and thinking about all the reason they don't like what we suggested, we've given them a new job. And that new job is to say, well, which of these do I like better? And because they're focused on which one they like better, they're much more like it a pick one at the end of a meeting. And so I call this providing a menu really simply because this is what happens when we go out to dinner. When you go out to dinner at a restaurant, they don't say, here's dinner.

Starting point is 00:25:53 They say, what would you like for dinner? But notice what they also don't say. They also don't say, what would you like, period for dinner? They say, here's a limited set of options. Choose from within that choice set, right? And so in that sense, it's guided choice. You're not giving people no options, but you're not giving people unlimited options.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Even the limited set, encouraging them to focus on those options and be more likely to pick one. Now, could they pick something off menu? They certainly could. But if the options are good enough, they're going to spend their time energy focused on what's there rather than what is it

Starting point is 00:26:23 and be more likely to choose from them. And so it's not about giving them fake options. And it's not about giving them 500 options, time energy, focus on what's there, rather than what is it, and be more likely to choose from them. So it's not about giving them fake options, and it's not about giving them 500 options, which would be overwhelming and won't work either. But it's about giving them two, three, four, maybe five tops options that are real options, that encourage them to focus on what's on the table, rather than what isn't, and encourage them to choose from the set you wanted them to choose from in the first place. Yeah, I think that's such an unbelievable strategy.

Starting point is 00:26:47 And so basically what you're saying is if you give somebody one choice, they're going to just try to poke holes in it. They're going to try to just figure out what's wrong with it, why it's not for them, and they're going to just focus on that. But if you give them multiple choices, they're going to be comparing the choices rather than poking holes in everything. Yeah, you know, I find this happens to me and maybe it happens to you as well when we shop online also. So when you go to a store that only has a couple of options,

Starting point is 00:27:10 or you're buying something to category, you know comes from multiple retailers. When you look at one place, you tend to want to go to check somewhere else, right? Maybe they'll have a lower price, maybe they'll have better options, better colors, better selection. If I'm just looking at one place,

Starting point is 00:27:24 maybe I should look elsewhere. But if you go on Amazon, often they'll have two, three, 15, 25 different options in the category. I was just looking at bird seed for when we ran out of bird seed. So I need more bird seed, right? There were so many options on Amazon. So many didn't even think about going anywhere else, right? Because I'm assuming, well, there's enough good things here.

Starting point is 00:27:42 I don't need to look elsewhere. And I can focus within the options that are here. And I'm not saying, be like Amazon and give people hundreds of options. But the notion is the same. If people, if you're giving people enough that they feel like that set is reasonable and they can focus there, they don't need to look anywhere else.

Starting point is 00:27:59 Yeah, totally makes sense. So let's move on to another strategy you have in the book called Ask Don't Tell. And basically you're saying to ask questions rather than making statements. So how can we use this to counteract reactants? Yeah. So, you know, when we make statements, as we've talked about already, people push back. Right? If I'm the CDC and I'm saying, you need to get vaccinated because it's dangerous if you're not, people go, oh, well, yeah, my cousin though. I mean, he or she's not vaccinated and they're fine, right?

Starting point is 00:28:27 If we're pitching something and we say, oh, you know, this is why we're better, someone focuses on why, it's not. But questions allow us to get around that, right? Rather than trying to persuade people, it allows us to get them to persuade themselves. I was talking to a startup founder a few years ago and she was having trouble motivating her team. She had a big team of engineers and other folks

Starting point is 00:28:47 And there was a big deadline coming up and they needed to work harder and put an extra hours and people didn't just they didn't want to do it They didn't want to work weekends. They didn't want to work nights And so she's pushing and pushing people weren't changing. So finally she calls a meeting and she starts with a rhetorical question Not a real one but a rhetorical one. She says, hey, what kind of company do we want to be? A good company or a great company? Now, we know I won't answer. That question is, ah, great company. But then she asks a real question, says, how do we get there?

Starting point is 00:29:15 How can we become a great company? And she starts a conversation, right? And questions, as we've talked a little bit about already, do a couple things, right? First, they deactivate that antipersuasion radar. Rather than thinking about why they hate what the boss is suggesting and pushing back against that statement, they've got a different job, coming up with their opinion about how the company could become better, which people are more than happy to do. There are very few things people like more than sharing their opinion. So you've gotten them engaged, which is good. They're leaning in, rather than leaning back. But second, it allows sort of collect information.

Starting point is 00:29:47 And this goes back, I think, to one of the first questions you asked me in the interview, how do we collect that information? Questions are a great way to get there. We may have a sense of what someone wants. We may have a sense of what we think is good for the organization, but by asking them, we get much better information

Starting point is 00:30:03 that can help us do something better. I work with a lot of clients when I say, hey, why didn't someone change? But by asking them, we get much better information that can help us do something better. I work with a lot of clients when I say, hey, why didn't someone change? Why didn't something work? And they don't know. Questions allow us to get to those answers that help us target our appeals and be more effective. But the third thing that questions do, we talked a little bit about it already, is they encourage commitment to the conclusion. Because now if someone says, oh, well, I think the best way for us to become a great company

Starting point is 00:30:29 is to do this, and you say great, we're going to do that. It's a lot harder for them to say, I don't want to. Because they suggested in the first place, same in sales, right? If you say great, what are you looking for? And they say, I'm looking for X. And then you say great, well, we have X. We are X. We do X. It's a lot harder for them to say, well, I don't want this because they told you say, great, well, you know, we have X, we are X, we do X. It's

Starting point is 00:30:45 a lot harder for them to say, well, I don't want this because they told you what they wanted, right? And you told them how you achieve that. And so I was talking to someone and said, you know, it's so funny, my boss loves feeling like, you know, whatever I come up with is his idea. And I said, the only funny part is it's not just you are boss. Everyone likes feeling like something is their idea, right? The more you can give away ownership, the more you can let people participate in both the choice of the outcome and the journey, the more ownership they have, the more bought and they are, and the more now it's not your solution. It's theirs and they want to see it succeed.

Starting point is 00:31:17 Yeah. Based on what you said, it just sounds like people are more bought in when you're asking questions and you can get them to the same outcome and point, but they're getting it on their own and you're kind of just spoon feeding them the thought process to get there. Yeah, and I think this is, I mean, it's interesting in a couple ways, right?

Starting point is 00:31:36 So some of us say, well, oh man, I wanna get to the best thing for me. Why is caring about my customer or client or a colleague or whatever it is? That's not going to help me get there, right? And I think that's not only narrow-minded but also wrong, right? The more you understand what other people want, the more you can help them get what they want and help yourself along the way, right? And so it's not that the better off you make them, the worse you make yourself, very much the opposite. The better

Starting point is 00:32:02 off you make them, the more they're going to like you, the more they're going to choose you, and the more you're going to win as well. And so whether it's sales or convincing clients or otherwise, I think understanding that person that you're interacting with is really powerful. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Young and profitors, even though I interview the brightest minds in the world, I still seek out ways to keep on learning to become a better entrepreneur and a better leader. And that's why this year, I committed to taking one class on masterclass every single month in order to continue learning beyond what I learn on this podcast. And this fall,

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Starting point is 00:38:22 Again, sign up for free at Relay, Fi.com, Sash Profiting. Relay is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services and FDIC insurance are provided through Evolved Bank and Trust and Thread Bank, members of FDIC. The Relay Visa debit card is issued by Thread Bank, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Incorporated. So, in your book, you give some more tactics in terms of self-persuasion. So let's talk about highlighting a gap, and can you help us understand why internal

Starting point is 00:38:54 consistency is a big factor when it comes to driving human behavior? Yeah, so there's a great example of this. I'll sort of unpack the example, and then we can talk about it more generally. So there's an organization in Thailand called the Thai Health Promotion Foundation and they're trying to get people to quit smoking. The only problem is no one wants to quit smoking. And so they're trying to figure out what can we do to get people to quit. And so they end up coming up with this campaign where they have people walk up to smokers

Starting point is 00:39:20 on the street and they ask smokers for a light. Well, that's something if you're a smoker, it happens all the time. So when I ask you for a light, smokers often say yes, usually say yes. But this time the smokers say no. And the reason the smokers say no is that the person who asks them is a kid. Someone who looks eight to ten years old, a little boy with a monkey shirt, a little girl with pigtails, they say, can I have a light? And the smokers say, no, hey, I'm not going to give you a light, you're a little kid. Don't you want to go run and play? Smoking will make you look old,

Starting point is 00:39:48 or to give you lung cancer, and pizema. Smoking has pesticides in it. Sigarettes have pesticides. All these horrible things. No, I'm not going to give you a cigarette. They basically give the young people a lecture about why smoking is bad. And the young person shakes their ideas and goes, okay. And then they say, but then why are you smoking? And they hand them a little card that says, hey, you worry about me, but not yourself. If you're interested in quitting, here's a number to call to help you out.

Starting point is 00:40:12 Now, this campaign is hugely successful. 40% increase in costs, the quit line, videos the campaign go viral on the web, get millions of views. But I think what is the coolest about this campaign, the most interesting thing, is why it works. What makes it so effective? And so the Health Promotion Foundation had a key insight. And that key insight was, look, we can't push people. We're going to push people. I'm going to talk about, they're going to push back. We have to figure out another

Starting point is 00:40:37 way to get them to change. And I think that has broader implications. Often as change agents, we think information is the issue. You haven't changed because you don't have the right information. If I give you that information you'll change. That's very self-focused and egocentric. It's not thinking about the person who want to change. Often they have all the information. Smokers know all the dangers of smoking. It's not like they don't know, yet they're still doing it. And so telling them to quit because it's not healthy for the missing work. And so they said, well, how can we get those smokers, as you nicely said, to convince themselves? And so what they did is something called highlighting a gap. People want their attitudes and their actions to line up.

Starting point is 00:41:14 If I say I care about the environment, I better recycle. If I say I care about a certain sports team, I better watch their games. If I say I care about, you know, kids not smoking, I better not smoke. We want our attitudes and our actions to line up. And if they don't, a negative emotional reaction occurs called cognitive dissonance. And so people do work to reduce that dissonance.

Starting point is 00:41:33 They change their attitudes, where they change their actions. In this case, they have two options. Hey, I can quit smoking, which might be a good idea, or I can tell these kids smoking is okay, which I'm not going to do. So I better quit smoking, which is what 40% of them did. And so what this campaign did is highlighted gap. Often attitudes and actions aren't next to one another. A prospective client may say that they care about a certain thing one day and hear your pitch another day and they're not connecting those two things. And so why it's called highlighting gap is let's bring them together. those two things. And so why it's called highlighting gap is let's bring them together. Let's show where hey, you know, you say you care about this thing. Okay, great. Let me

Starting point is 00:42:09 remind you of this thing when encouraging you to take an action. So that I'm not telling you, hey, take this action. I'm saying, well, didn't you care about this thing? Cool. Maybe you want to change your behavior. Encouraging them to go, huh, I seem to care about this, but I'm not behaving in a way like I care about it. Maybe I should do something about it, which is exactly what people do. It goes back to questions and ask questions, not statements, it sort of relates to that as well.

Starting point is 00:42:36 It certainly can, yeah. I think it's not just about asking questions, about asking the right questions, right? And we can use questions to do it, we can use other ways to do it, but bringing those things to the four certainly. Okay, so let's talk about endowment. So I thought this one was really interesting too. It basically says that when something is ours, we actually value it more. So what else

Starting point is 00:42:56 can you tell us about the endowment effect? Yeah, I think the big challenge here, and I'm happy to cover a couple more things, but I think the big challenge here is people think old things are safe and new ones are risky. Right? So if I have an existing supplier, if I'm buying a certain product already using a certain service, I feel like that thing is safe. And whatever the new thing is is risky.

Starting point is 00:43:17 Why? Because I haven't used it yet. And so I tend to stick with the old things. That's the endowment effect where it attached to the old. And I tend to think new things are risky and unsafe. But we often don't realize that old things aren't as costless as we might think. We think, oh, the old way is easier, and it is easier, but we may not realize how challenging it is. A couple of years ago, I was talking with Cousin of mine every time he wrote an email, would sign at the bottom, you know, best Charles,

Starting point is 00:43:43 every time he wrote that email. And I was sort of going on, you know, why don't you use an email signature, right? Wouldn't that save you time? He's going, no, because it only takes me a couple seconds to write best Charles. It would take me minutes to figure out an email signature and how to do it. And so it's not worth the time. And so I sort of pushed him and pushed him and he wouldn't do it. And finally, I said, interesting, how many emails do you write a day? I don't know, you know, 30, 40, 50, whatever it is, how many do you write a week? He said, I don't know, 200, 300 emails. How much time do you spend every week writing your email signature? And he thought about it, and then he goes online and figures out how

Starting point is 00:44:17 to automate his email signature because at each moment, it's always cheaper to do the old thing than the new thing. The new thing is always going to be more costly at the beginning. But over time, it actually ends up being better. And so the challenge is how can we highlight the cost of an action? How can we make people realize that doing the old thing that's sticking with what they're doing already?

Starting point is 00:44:36 Isn't as costless as it might seem. OK, as we're wrapping up the interview here, we're running out of time. I did want to ask a more general question. So earlier, we were talking about giving too much information, like giving that extra deck, trying to convince people, giving them facts, thinking that we're going to push them to get to a conclusion.

Starting point is 00:44:55 But there has to be some way for information to be relevant to getting people to make a decision. So what's the wrong way and the right way to use information to try to persuade people? I'm not saying to ignore information. I'm not saying that information is never part of the solution. But there's a difference between someone asking for information and us forcing it on them, right?

Starting point is 00:45:17 We talked about before, you know, the cases where people are leaning in versus pushing back. The cases where people are drawn in and want more from you, rather sort of shying away and trying to get away from you, I think information is great at the right time in the journey, right? I like thinking about customer journeys,

Starting point is 00:45:32 even if they're not a quote unquote customer, what is that path to purchase or action whoever that customer might be? And there's certainly a place for information, right? Particularly if I'm gonna buy something complicated or do something different, I'm gonna need some information. Maybe I have that information, maybe I don't. But starting with someone pushing that information down my throat is going to leave me to do the exact opposite. It's going to leave me to run away. And so it's more about rather than selling people

Starting point is 00:45:56 starting with a conversation, finding out what they need, finding out how you can help them, finding out what they care about, and then helping them get to where they need to be. In some cases showing them the best way for them to get what they want is by doing what you wanted them to do in the first place. And that's where you can bring that information. You know, you're talking to a customer, hey, what are you looking for?

Starting point is 00:46:14 We care about XYZ, awesome. Do you know how we provide that? You know what we do on those dimensions? Do you know how I could help you there? They say, yes, awesome. If they say, no, I'd like to learn more. It's a great opportunity to tell them more. But get them asking you for it

Starting point is 00:46:28 rather than sort of stuff at an end time. Okay, so one of the last questions I want to ask you on this topic is about uncertainty tax. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, sure. And I think a good way to describe this actually a story in my own life a couple of years ago. So I was getting on a plane to go somewhere to speak in an event or something.

Starting point is 00:46:47 And I got a note that every traveler dreads saying, you know, you're flight is delayed. And I didn't want to be delayed at all. Obviously, I was worried about missing this event, or worried about getting together with the client, whatever it was. And so I was worried about it, worried about it, worried about it. And if we think about the worst outcome that could happen there, the worst outcome that happened is that I missed my meeting. That's a bad outcome.

Starting point is 00:47:07 That's the worst that can happen. But it actually is funny when they eventually canceled the flight, and so I couldn't make my meeting. In some sense, I was better than I was before. Because now that I knew that the meeting was canceled, I could set up another meeting, or I could agree to do something on Zoom, or I could figure out a way to solve it. And so when it turns out we hate is not the worst outcome,

Starting point is 00:47:25 sometimes we hate the uncertainty, right? What's even worse than the worst outcome in a situation is not knowing what that outcome is. There was a great study that was done where they asked some people, how much would you pay for a $100 gift card? Now that's another set of people, how much would you pay for a $50 gift card?

Starting point is 00:47:41 Amazon or whatever it is. And so, you know, one set of people gave their number, another set of people gave their number, and then they said to a third group of people, hey, how much would you pay for a gift card? You're not going to know whether it's $100 or $50, but it's going to be one or the other. How much would you pay for that card? Now, you would expect that third set of people, the lowest they would have been willing to pay was for the $50 gift card, because worst case, that's what they're going to get. But what the researchers found is that the valuation was even lower than the $50 gift card because people don't just dislike uncertainty, they devalue uncertainty.

Starting point is 00:48:12 Anytime there's uncertainty, we decide to do nothing. We don't want to take action. Essentially, we hit the pause button, which is great for the status quo, which is great for whatever people are doing previously, but is terrible for moving forward. And so I talk about in the book a lot of ways to alleviate uncertainty, to move that uncertainty, because that's key. A lot of times what's stopping people is not just information. It's the uncertainty that is this going to be good or not? And if I don't know if it's going to be good, I might as well stick with what I'm doing already. Yeah, and that's why since we were talking about sales like pilot

Starting point is 00:48:43 programs or a trialling or even money back guarantees, they all work because they kind of reduce the uncertainty. Yeah, you know, I talk about the book about freemium or test drives or free samples, all these things. And we think freemium is sort of this new business model that's completely different, but at the core what freemium really does,

Starting point is 00:49:00 it allows people to experience the value of what we're offering. Right, and here's the challenge. Whatever you're telling people to do, they've got an old thing they're doing already. You're saying the new thing is better, but how do they know it's better? And as we've talked about, there's all this cost upfront to switch to something new. And so what we're trying to do is lower that parity trial, make it easier for them to experience the value of what you're offering so that they say, hey, it's pretty good. Now it's worth paying some, whether time, effort, or money

Starting point is 00:49:26 to learn a bit more. Awesome. So everybody, this book is absolutely amazing. Like I wish we had enough time to cover all five barriers because it's so interesting. Jonah, thank you so much for joining us. One of the last questions that we ask our guests on the show is what is one actionable thing

Starting point is 00:49:42 that our young and profitors can do today to be more profiting tomorrow? I would say identify the roadblocks. Whatever it is that you're trying to do, whether you're trying to pence out customer or a client, whether you're trying to pence a boss or a colleague, whether you're trying to start a new business, whatever you're trying to do, what are the roadblocks that are getting in the way of that person, people, organizations you're trying to change? The more we understand about them, the more we understand about the things that are getting in the way of that person, people, organizations you're trying to change. The more we understand about them,

Starting point is 00:50:06 the more we understand about the things that are preventing them from changing, the more effective catalysts we can be. Awesome. And what is your secret to profiting in life? I think always be curious. You know, we're born, we're however born, we can't become smarter than we are necessarily, but we can always be curious.

Starting point is 00:50:23 And I think it's a great skill. You know, whatever we are, whatever we're dealing with, I think the more we approach life with wonder and ask questions, the more successful we'll be. I love that. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? Sure. Yeah. Joneberger.com, just J-O-N-A-H-B-E-R-G-E-R.com.

Starting point is 00:50:42 There's a bunch of free resources there. So guides for changing a customer, a client's mind, changing a boss's mind, videos, one-pagers, all sorts of stuff to help you in your journey to apply these ideas. Awesome. I love this conversation. Thank you so much. No problem.

Starting point is 00:50:57 Thanks for having me. you

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Jonah Berger on How to Change Anyone's Mind

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