Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Marshall Goldsmith, #1 Business Executive Coach Shares His Secrets for Training CEOs and Entrepreneurs | Leadership

Starting point is 00:00:00 What's up, young improfitors? Welcome back to this show. In this episode of Yap Classic, where we're playing my first interview with Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall Goldsmith is my LinkedIn client. He's been my client for several years now, but when I recorded this episode, he was not my client yet. Now that I personally know him,

Starting point is 00:00:31 I can confirm that he is the real deal. He's one of the biggest experts when it comes to leadership coaching for behavioral change and he's been named one of the top 10 business thinkers in the world and is the author of several New York Times bestsellers like Trigger and What Got You Here Won't Get You There. In today's episode, Marshall and I go deep on how to avoid and manage triggers and enact meaningful and lasting change. We also break down the importance of feedback loops and Marshall's groundbreaking 360 assessment technique. This episode is a must here for all business leaders and entrepreneurs.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Marshall is the best of the best when it comes to executive leadership. So without further ado, here's my interview with Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. I know that you studied directly under the father of modern management. His name is Peter Drucker. What was he like and what were some of the key lessons that he taught you? Well, I feel very blessed. I mean, I got ranked number one leadership thinker in the world twice. My intellect compared to his is that of a 10-year-old child.

Starting point is 00:01:35 This guy was so, so smart. He taught me many things. And I'm going to share just a couple with you. One is he said, you know, we spend a lot of time helping leaders learn what to do. We don't spend enough time helping leaders learn what to stop. He said, half the leaders I meet, they do not need to learn what to do. They need to learn what to stop. Well, that one comment led to my book, What Got You Here, We'll Get You There.

Starting point is 00:01:58 Now, the second thing he taught me, which is really good for younger people who are listening to your podcast right now is this. if your listeners don't understand anything I've said, but this one thing, it's going to help them be more effective in life and happier, including you. So this is just a great thing to learn. He said, our mission in life is to make a positive difference, not to prove we're smart, not to prove we're right. Well, we get so wrapped up trying to prove how smart we are and right we are, we forget. We're not here on earth to do that. We're here to make a positive difference. If we don't make a positive difference, it doesn't really matter how smart we are or how right we are. Then he said, number two, every decision in the world is made by the person who has the power to make the decision.

Starting point is 00:02:37 Not the smartest person, the best person, a fair person, or logical person. Decisions are made based on one and only one variable power. Whoever has the power to make the decision is going to make the decision. Then he said, if I need to influence you and you have the power to make the decision, there's one word to describe you. That's called customer. One word to describe me is called salesperson. You sell what you can sell. You change what you can change.

Starting point is 00:03:00 If you can sell it, you sell it. If you can't sell it, you can't change it. Take a deep breath and let it go. It's just such good advice. And before you deal with any topic, ask yourself one question, am I willing at this time to make the investment required to make a positive difference on this topic? Am I willing at this time to make the investment required to make a positive difference

Starting point is 00:03:21 on this topic? If the answer is yes, go for it. The answer is no, let it go. That's really good advice. Something else that fascinated me about yourself and something that's something that's that I feel is really different is that you describe yourself as a philosophical Buddhist. So what steered you towards Buddhism and what is being a Buddhist taught you? Well, you're a little young for this, but back in the olden days, that was what was called a hippie.

Starting point is 00:03:45 I spent, for example, 1969, three months out on the road hitchhiking. That was like living in another era. And back in that day, people often study different kinds of religions and philosophies. So I studied Buddhism. So I've been a Buddhism for almost 50 years. And I'm not a religious Buddhist, so I'm a philosophical Buddhist. Buddha was brought up very rich. His father was a king.

Starting point is 00:04:09 He was protected from life. And then it was living in a kind of bubble. One day he was able to sneak out of the bubble and he looked around and he learned something. He said, people get old. Then he was able to sneak out a second time. He learned people get sick. Third time, when people die, he said, you get old, you get sick and you die. Shit happens.

Starting point is 00:04:27 Not so good. then he realized I can't be happy with more all this money and stuff it doesn't make any difference then he went out in the woods and starved himself and he tried to be happy with less and he learned you can't be happy with less either he finally realized you can only be happy with one thing what you have there's only one time you can be happy and it's now and there's only one place you can find peace that's here yeah and that's to me the essence of Buddhism and in my coaching I teach something called feed forward. Everybody asked for input. I teach them to listen to it, to thank people, and they don't promise to do everything, but you do what you can. And Buddha said,

Starting point is 00:05:07 only do what I teach if it works for you. That's where I got the idea. If it doesn't work for you, it's okay, don't do it. So when people give us ideas to try to help us, rather than judging them or critiquing their ideas or putting them down, you know, the learning point is you say thank you for the ideas. That's awesome. Super interesting. So like I mentioned, you are a world-renowned leadership coach. Your clients are top-performing CEOs and executives, but it's honestly a bit counterintuitive to think that top leaders who have achieved so much success have trouble changing any unfavorable behaviors that they have on their own and need to seek outside help from people like yourself. However, I know that's exactly what your popular book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There is All About. And you have said in the past that success makes you fail. So can you explain why that is true and why it's extremely hard for successful people to change? Well, you're making a great point. Any human, in fact, any animal will replicate behavior that's followed by positive reinforcement. And the more successful we become, the more positive reinforcement we get.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And we fall into something called a superstition trap. What is it? Sounds like this. I behave this way. I am successful. therefore I must be successful because I behave this way. Well, the reality is we all behave the way we behave and everyone I work with is mega successful. And they're all successful because they do many things right.

Starting point is 00:06:38 And in spite of doing some things that are stupid. And I've never met anyone so wonderful. They had nothing on the in spite of the list. Well, we've all got something on the in spite of list. See, one thing I'm very proud of in my book Triggers is 27 major CEOs endorse the book. why I'm so proud of that is 30 years ago. No CEO would admit to having a coach. They would have been ashamed to have a coach, embarrassed to have a coach.

Starting point is 00:07:01 Well, today they're not ashamed. We all need help. Twyla Tharp, a world's greatest choreographers, had the same personal trainer for 27 years. Why she had the same trainer for 27 years, I'm Twyla Tharp, I need help, and I'm so okay, that's why she looks so good. Top 10 tennis players, how many of them have a coach?

Starting point is 00:07:18 10? Why did they have a coach? They're trying to get better. So I think it's really just a healthy way to look at life. Yeah. So do you feel like there's a right balance between success and failure? Well, to me, on a more existential level, how do you define success? I'll give you just a few key variables.

Starting point is 00:07:38 One is be healthy. If you're not healthy, the rest of this doesn't matter too much. Two, you need enough wealth to have at least a middle or upper middle class kind of income. Extremely poor people are not particularly happy. but after you get to kind of a mid-level of income, from there on up, more money doesn't make you happier. Lottery winners are not that much happier, for example. So you need wealth to a degree. You need help.

Starting point is 00:08:01 Then you need to have great relationships with people you love. So, you know, your listeners shouldn't get self-focused in their career. They're more the people they love. And then assuming you have enough wealth, you're healthy, you've got great relationships with people who love. What matters? Two things. The first is happiness. And by happiness, what I mean is you love the person.

Starting point is 00:08:20 process of what you're doing. You just avoid doing it. And the second is meaning. That is the outcomes of what you're doing are important to you. And what's really important in life is you need to experience both happiness and meaning simultaneously. If you just try to achieve happiness without meaning, well, you know, like for me when you're older, you're something like old man playing crappy golf with old people at the country club, eating chicken sandwiches and discussing gallbladder surgery. That doesn't work, right? There's empty. It's empty. On the other hand, if you try to pursue meaning without happiness, you're a victim or martyr. So you really need to, number one, love what you're doing, and two, you need to see it's meaningful to you.

Starting point is 00:09:01 And the key to me for success is no one can find happiness for you but you. No one can find meaning for you, but you. I cannot tell you what you love doing. That has to come from your heart. I can also not tell you what's meaningful for you. That also has to come from your heart. So happiness and meaning to me, that's the ultimate. goal of success. It needs it to come though from the inside, not from the outside.

Starting point is 00:09:25 The Western diseases, I'll be happy when. When I get the money status, BMW, condominium, I will be happy when. Well, we all have the same win. The key is, you know, be happy now, be happy with what you have. That's so touching and it's so true. You've definitely got to know from internally what really matters to you and make sure you fulfill those things. So really great advice. So let's talk about your two most popular. books. What Got You Here Won't Get You There and Triggers. They've been recognized by Amazon.com of two of the top 100 leadership and success books ever written. Millions and millions of people have benefited from your books, which is so incredible. So as an introduction to the books and also your

Starting point is 00:10:07 expertise to our listeners, if our readers had to take away one key concept from each of these books, what would that be? Well, first I'll start with what guy you here won't get you there. What teach people there is ask for input from everyone around you. How can I be a better manager? How can I be a better team player? How can I be a better supplier? How can I be a better customer? How can I be a better son or daughter?

Starting point is 00:10:32 How can it be a better father or mother? Better brother's sister, better friend, better family member. If you didn't have an habit of asking that question, how can I be a better? Then listen to what people have to say. Again, don't promise to do everything they say. Just promise to listen and think about it. pick the most important things for you to improve and then just follow up on a regular basis. How am I doing? Follow up on a regular basis. Get input. And if you do this, I mean, I have

Starting point is 00:10:58 research from tens of thousands of people. You tend to become more effective. Not as judged by yourself, but as judged by the most important people in your life. So that's from my book, What Got You Here, Won't You There? And my book Triggers, I'll teach your listeners, something that takes three minutes a day, cost nothing. It'll help them get better at almost anything. Now, some people are skeptical. Three minutes a day, cost nothing, not me get better at anything. Sounds too good to be true. At the people that start doing this quit within two weeks, not because it does not work. They quit because it does work. This is called the daily question process. And that's, you get out a spreadsheet, you write down a column of questions that represent what's most important in your life,

Starting point is 00:11:36 friends, family, co-workers, etc. Every question has to be answered with a yes and no or number. seven boxes across one for every day of the week. At the end of the week, the spreadsheet will give a report card. I will warn your listeners in advance. The report card they see at the end of the week might not be quite as beautiful as the corporate values of Pocacy is stuck up on a wall. I've been doing this for years, and you do this every day, you learn that life. Life is incredibly easy to talk.

Starting point is 00:12:02 Life's incredibly difficult to live. And if you do this every day, it's humbling. Most people can't do it. I have a woman named Jasmine call me every day. She's going to call me right after this call. Every day she calls me and she listens to me, read questions I wrote and provide answers I wrote every day. Someone asks me, well, why do you have a woman call you every day? Don't you know the theory about how to change behavior?

Starting point is 00:12:25 I wrote the theory about how to change behavior. A woman call me every day because my name is Marshall Goldsmith. I've got ranked number one leadership thinker coach in the world. I'm too cowardly to do this stuff by myself and too undisciplined to do it by myself. And I need help. It's okay. Once we admit we need help, life is better for everybody. This daily question process is amazing.

Starting point is 00:12:48 The first six questions I recommend are number one, and they all start with, did I do my best? Number one, did I do my best to set clear goals? Number two, did I do my best to make progress for achieving my goals today? Number three, did I do my best to find meaning? Number four, did I do my best to be happy? number five did I do my best to build positive relationships and finally number six did I do my best today to be fully engaged and our research on this is amazing just by asking these six questions every day you tend to get better in amazing ways and if your listeners would like to get articles I wrote one called leadership as a contact sport and that talks about the point I made from what got here one with you there I wrote another one called the about the daily questions from the book triggers

Starting point is 00:13:36 If they just send me an email, I'd be happy to send them copies of both articles. And my email address is Marshall at Marshallwholesmith.com. And Marshall has two else. Cool. So let's stick on this daily questions for a bit. Why is it necessary to make sure that you are asking active questions rather than passive ones? Well, there's nothing wrong with passive questions. Here's the issue.

Starting point is 00:14:01 If you ask, like, employee engagement surveys, always ask passive questions. If you ask a person a passive question, we tend to blame the environment. For example, do you have clear goals? People say, no, why not? Well, they're confused. Do you have meaningful work? No, they make me do trivia. It's a them, it's their fault.

Starting point is 00:14:18 See, these active questions begin with the phrase, did I do my best too? And what's amazing about that phrase is you cannot blame someone else. All you have to do is try. You don't have to succeed. Did I even try? And that's why the active questions are so powerful. Let me give you the hardest question you could ever test yourself on every day. It has four qualities.

Starting point is 00:14:39 And this is totally counterintuitive. Quality of number one is you write the question. You write your own question. Why is that hard? You can't blame the idiot that wrote the question. Number two, you know the answer. Why does that make it hard? You can't say you don't know how to do it.

Starting point is 00:14:54 Number three, you know it's important. It's not trivial. And then finally, number four, all you have to do to make a high score is try. You just have to try. Yeah. They might ask why is that so difficult? No one to blame. It's very hard to look in the mirror every day. No one to blame but yourself. And I've been doing this for years and I've learned about 95% of all of my problems I can see in one place. Just look in the mirror. It's very hard to face this for most people. Including me, by the way. It's hard to do this every day. That's why a woman call me. at yap, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence.

Starting point is 00:15:34 We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers. And I'm really picky when it comes to my employees. My team is growing every day. We're 60 people all over the world. And when it comes to hiring, I no longer feel overwhelmed by finding that perfect candidate, even though I'm so picky because when it comes to hiring, indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post noticed. Indeed, sponsor jobs help you stand out and hire fast by boosting your post to the top,

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Starting point is 00:16:31 Just go to Indeed.com slash profiting right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash profiting. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. Young and profiters. I know there's so many people tuning in right now that end their work day wondering why certain tasks take forever, why they're procrastinating certain things, why they don't feel confident

Starting point is 00:16:55 in their work, why they feel drained and frustrated. and unfulfilled. But here's the thing you need to know. It's not a character of law that you're feeling this way. It's actually your natural wiring. And here's the thing. When it comes to burnout, it's really about the type of work that you're doing. Some work gives you energy and some work simply drains you. So it's key to understand your six types of working genius. The working genius assessment or the six types of working genius framework was created by Patrick Lensione and he's a business influencer and author. And the working genius framework helps you identify what you're actually built for and the work that you're not. Now, let me tell you a story. Before I uncovered my working genius,

Starting point is 00:17:36 which is galvanizing and invention, so I like to rally people and I like to invent new things, I used to be really shameful and had a lot of guilt around the fact that I didn't like enablement, which is one of my working frustrations. So I actually don't like to support people one-on-one. I don't like it when people slow me down. I don't like handholding. I like to move fast, invent, rally people inspire. But what I do need to do is ensure that somebody else can fill that enablement role, which I do have, Kate on my team. So working genius helps you uncover these genius gaps, helps you work better with your team,

Starting point is 00:18:07 helps you reduce friction, helps you collaborate better, understand why people are the way that they are. It's helped me restructure my team, put people in the spots that they're going to really excel. And it's also helped me in hiring. Working genius is absolutely amazing. I'm obsessed with this model. So if you guys want to take the working genius assessment and get 20% off,

Starting point is 00:18:25 You can use code profiting. Go to working genius.com. Again, that's working genius.com. Stop guessing. Start working in your genius. The thing I love about the daily questions is that it really helps to build a habit. They say if you don't do something daily, your behavior doesn't change. You don't change yourself.

Starting point is 00:18:43 So sticking on habits, you outline 20 habits that hold people back from reaching the top. Some examples are winning too much, adding too much value, and playing favorites. We don't have time to cover all 20 in detail, but I'd love to run through some core themes that I picked out that relate to these 20 habits. Maybe let's start off with the theme of being too competitive. So some habits you mentioned that I think fall into this category are winning too much, withholding information, claiming credit when we don't deserve it, and failing to provide recognition. So can you talk to us about this type of quote unquote bad behavior and how it negatively impacts our relationships? Well, what happens is we've been programmed to succeed and win. Every one of your listeners, including you, have taken test after test after test in your life.

Starting point is 00:19:31 And I looked up your background. You're a very good student, 4.0 grade average. You've got a lot of reinforcement for doing one thing over and over again, proving how smart you are. Over and over and over. And it's real tough when you've had as much reinforcement as you've had for proving how smart you are to stop doing that. See, it's hard. Every time you made those A's people pat you on the back. Oh, congratulations.

Starting point is 00:19:57 You're the valedictorian of the school. And almost everyone I coach is just like you. They're real smart, hard working people. What's hard when you take tests day after day after day, not to just go through life proving how smart you are. Now, let me give you a couple examples of this. Winning too much. You want to go to restaurant X, your husband, wife, friend, or partner wants to go to

Starting point is 00:20:16 restaurant Y. You have heated argument. You go to restaurant Y. Food taste awful and service is terrible. Option A, you could critique the food and point out our partner was wrong. And you know, this mistake could have been avoided if only you'd listen to me, me, me. Or option B, shut up. Eat the stupid food, try to enjoy it and have a nice evening.

Starting point is 00:20:36 What would I do? What should I do? Almost all of my clients, what would I do? Critique the food. What should I do? Shut up. Well, it's very hard for smart and successful people not to critique the food. Another one even worse.

Starting point is 00:20:48 You have a hard day at work. you go home. Your husband, my friend, or partner is there. And the other person says, I had such a hard day today. I had such a tough day. And if we're not careful, we reply, you had a hard day. You have a hard day. You have any idea what I had to put up with today? You think you had a hard day? We're so competitive. We have to prove her more miserable than people we live with. I gave an example to my class at Dartmouth. A young guy in the back raised his hand. He said, I did that last week. I asked him, what happened? He said, my wife looked at me. She said, honey, you just think you've had a hard day?

Starting point is 00:21:19 it's not over. That's so funny. You know why we have the urge to want to win so much? What's the meaning behind that? Like, why is that so inherent for humans? Well, we've been reinforced throughout our lives for winning and proving we're smart and right. And again, at the lower level of an organization,

Starting point is 00:21:40 it's really not so bad. You kind of have to prove yourself. Every time you get promoted, though, you've got to learn to stop doing that. And the worst thing is CEO can do was trying to prove how smart there and win all the time. At that level, you want to make everybody else a winner. Don't want to make it all about you.

Starting point is 00:21:55 So it's a very difficult transition. One of my customers said, for the great individual achiever, it's all about me. For the great leader, it's all about them. You see, it's hard to make this transition from being an achiever, which is mostly about me to being a leader, which is mostly about them. Yeah. So let's talk about the habit of being negative. So always kind of giving negative feedback and also starting our sentences with no or but or however.

Starting point is 00:22:23 Can you explain that habit to our listeners? Yes. One of the classic challenges of the smart people I coach is they tend to be a little stubborn. Now, I'm assuming you're not stubborn, but many of the leaders that I coach are stubborn people. So one night is having dinner with General Eric Shinseki's head of the United States Army, four-star general. We're in a room surrounded by two to four-star generals. And you said, Marshall, who is your favorite customer? I said, sir, my favorite customer, smart, dedicated, hardworking, driven to achieve,

Starting point is 00:22:49 creative entrepreneurial, cares about the company and customers, great values, high integrity, stubborn opinionated, no it all that never wants to be wrong. I said, sir, you think any of the general's in this very room may fit such a description? He said, Marshall, we have a target rich opportunity. Well, there's no but however thing is the classic problem of stubborn people. If someone talks to us, the first word about it's no, what would you say, shut up, you're wrong, or but, what does but mean? Just regard everything you've said.

Starting point is 00:23:18 One of my clients was stubborn and opinionated, so I was reviewing his 360 feedback report. He said, but Marshall, I said, that's free. If you ever do that again, I'm going to find you $20. All the money goes to the charity of your choice. He said, but Marshall, 20, no, 40, no, no, 40, no, 60, 800. He lost $420 in an hour and a half. At the end of the hour and a half, he said, thank you. He said, I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:23:45 He said, I did that 21 times when you're throwing it in my face. How many times were I done it had you not been throwing it in my face? 50 times, 100 times. He said, no wonder people think I'm stubborn. The first thing I do when people talk to me is I prove I know more than them or they're wrong over and over and over and over again. He got so much better to being a good listener just by learning that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:24:07 A big takeaway I got from your book is that you need to sometimes just like pause. And if you're going to say negative response or if you're going to say no or but, start off with thank you instead and show your gratitude. And one of my favorite stories actually that you tell is about gratitude and self-control. You talk about being in the car with your wife, for example, maybe on the way to the airport and getting loud with her for telling you to watch out for red light. And, you know, I've had this happen to me with my boyfriend maybe 10 times at least. So could you tell us about this story and share the lesson on why the best response. You can say when you're unsure or when you're going to say something negative is simply

Starting point is 00:24:46 thank you. Well, you know, it's interesting. Everyone says they want to encourage honest input. We want people to tell the truth and we don't want to punish the messenger. So when I teach my classes, I always say, how many you believe you should encourage honest input and encourage the truth? No one should. And they all raise their hand, right? And I said, well, you wouldn't shoot the messenger. Oh, no, no, of course not. Then I gave them this case study. Imagine you come home from work, you've had a hard day, you get in the car to go to the store. You're driving the store. You're driving the store lots of traffic cars are cutting in their front of you people honking their horns the person in the front seat goes look out there's a red light up ahead you say thank you or did you say what do you mean there's a

Starting point is 00:25:23 red light doing anything you can see i'm going to drive this car or do you be quiet let me drive well almost everyone in the room shows plan B so what was it cost to that person saying hey there's a red light up ahead nothing what could that have saved your life their life and then lives of other innocent people somebody gives us something that has a fantastic potential benefit and costs nothing. What should we say to this person? Just say thank you. Just say thank you. And don't beat them up for telling you the truth.

Starting point is 00:25:49 So let's talk about improving some of these bad behaviors. You were a pioneer of the use of 360-degree feedback. Can you tell us about this process? In my coaching, every leader that I work with gets confidential feedback from all of their key stakeholders. These will be their direct reports, their peers. their managers, could be board members. And then they pick important behavior to improve. Then they go back and talk to people saying,

Starting point is 00:26:15 thank you for this feedback. Here's what I've learned. Here's what I'm going to do about it. They practice then feed forward. They don't ask for more feedback about the past ideas for the future. They don't critique the ideas. They shut up. They thank people.

Starting point is 00:26:28 Don't promise to do everything. And then they follow up on a regular basis. And the follow up is, you know, two months ago, I said I wanted to be a better list or based on the last two months, for the next two, they follow, follow, up, follow up, and then we measure improvement. And again, the people that do this stuff tend to get better. People that don't, don't. So I'm not sure which book this was in exactly, but you say that people change their ways when they feel like something they truly value is being threatened. Can you talk about this and maybe also talk about some of the

Starting point is 00:26:57 big excuses people have for change? Well, change is hard. And if we're going to change anything, we really have to have kind of a what's in it for me in terms of values. And that's why feedback is important. Most people do value their families. And they get feedback from their families that they're not doing a good job. They want to get better. Most people value their coworkers. They get feedback from their coworkers.

Starting point is 00:27:18 They're not doing a good job. They want to get better. So that's really important. In my book, Triggers, I talk about why we don't do all the stuff we know what we should. And there are a variety of reasons. Years ago, my biggest client was Johnson and Johnson. And at the end of my class, about 98% of the people said that we're going to do what I thought. A year later, about 70% had done something and 30% had done nothing.

Starting point is 00:27:42 I'm not ashamed of these numbers. I'm very proud. 70% of 2,000 people is 1,400 people getting evaluated by 10 co-workers each. So about 14,000 people have a little better life. So I'm proud of that. I got to interview the people who did nothing. And I said, why did you do nothing? Well, the answers had nothing to do with ethics, values, or integrity.

Starting point is 00:28:01 They went in a word that year. Most Ethical Company in the world, they're good people. I'm sure your listeners are good people. And nothing to do with intelligence. They're smart. I'm sure your listeners are smart. The reason people did nothing had to do with a dream. The dream I've had for years, and I would bet even at your young age, you've already

Starting point is 00:28:17 had this dream. The dream sounds like this. You know, I'm incredibly busy right now. You haven't work at home and new technology that follows me everywhere in emails and voicemails and global competition. I feel about as busy as you ever have. Sometimes I feel overcommitted. Every now and again, my life feels just a little bit out of control.

Starting point is 00:28:35 But you know, I'm working on some very unique and special challenges right now. And I think the worst of this is going to be over in four or five months. And after that, I'm going to take two or three weeks and get organized and spend some time with the family and begin my new healthy life program. And everything is going to be different and it won't be crazy anymore. Have you ever had a dream that resembled that dream? Yeah. How many years? Well, you know what? I'm very much the person who doesn't believe in being busy, and it's a matter of prioritizing. But as a younger person, I definitely acted like that, yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:09 Good, good, good, good. And so it's really important. And we use all kinds of excuses. Another excuse is one of my favorites is called it's a special day. You know, I'm going on that diet, but it's a Super Bowl. So I'm going to eat that Super Bowl pizza and guacamole or it's my birthday or it's my kid's birthday or my boyfriend's birthday or my mother's birthday, you know, somebody's birthday. So if we're not careful, we can make up this special day excuse to cover almost every day.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Every day is a little special or different and makes an excuse. And so in my book Triggers, I talk about all these wonderful excuses we have and keep us from doing what we know we should. And it's hard. It's hard to face the reality of our lives. That's why the daily question process is so hard. Yeah. So let's move on to Trigger since we're already talking about it. Can you explain to our listeners what a behavioral trigger is?

Starting point is 00:30:00 Well, triggers any stimulus may impact our behavior. It could be a sight, a sound, a word, a person. any statement that impacts our behavior. And as we journey through life, we all have this image of the person that we want to become. Why don't we become this person? Well, every day we journey through life, we have these triggers, these events that occur, these sites.

Starting point is 00:30:22 And they usually sometimes push us toward becoming that person, but usually push us away from becoming that person. Somebody says something. We become angry. We'd go off the handle, the driving case study. You smell something. Eat food you didn't want to eat. You told yourself you shouldn't eat.

Starting point is 00:30:36 So as we journey through life, very important to realize what are the triggers in my life that really set off behavior that's inconsistent with the person I want to become? And how can I, number one, anticipate these triggers? So then I can start becoming aware of them before they happen and anticipate them. If possible, avoid them. And if not possible to avoid them, at least learn how to adjust my behavior so that I'm not being controlled by these triggers. And if you look at life, you can say, you know, how much do I control and how much am I controlled?

Starting point is 00:31:10 And you can look at different dimensions. If you ever been to a motivational speech, they're always the same, you know, you can do it, you can do it. It's all up to you. You can do it. Or the book, The Secret, if I envision it, it will happen. Well, you know, it's partly true and partly not so true. The other view is we're like a pinball machine, pinball bouncing through life. and B.F. Skinner, the Harvard psychologist, basically said that we're just controlled by

Starting point is 00:31:35 triggers in our environment. We have no control. Well, in my book, triggers, I think they're both a little bit true. We have some control. And part of my life is a function of what I can control, and part of it is I am being controlled. And the whole idea of the book is really to just balance the equation a little bit more in terms of I'm in charge of my own life, a little bit less of I'm just being manipulated by environment. Yeah. Before we move on, on to environment, let's just dig deeper into habits and triggers and feedback loops. Specifically, I'd like you to explain what a feedback loop is to our listeners. So it's comprised of four stages, evidence, relevance, consequence, and action. Could you maybe walk us through a real-life

Starting point is 00:32:19 example of a feedback loop so that our listeners could really understand what it is? Well, you're driving your car and you see a sign that says speed limit 30 miles an hour coming up in a small, whole town. It was evidence that something's going to happen. And then how important is, you think I might get a ticket, and then eventually think that's relevant. And then you've got this evidence, which would lead to a consequence, which is something bad, and you ultimately end up changing your behavior. So as we go through life, we're constantly given the opportunity to deal with these feedback loops. And the important thing is to say, all right, am I being sensitive enough to these feedback clips? Am I aware of what's really going on around me? For example, we have a little child.

Starting point is 00:33:03 The little child says, you know, I miss you, mommy. What does that mean? How can I process this? And the coworker who seems upset, being able to read your environment as best you can so that you're learning from the environment at all times, and then you're able to make adjustments in your behavior that fit the needs of the people in your environment. Hello, young improfitors. Running my own business has been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done, but I won't lie to you. In those early days of setting it up, I feel like I was jumping on a cliff with no parachute.

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Starting point is 00:37:28 First, become aware. What are the triggers that's set me off? Then, if you can avoid the triggers, avoid them. For example, if you only quit drinking, don't go to bars. You want to quit smoking, don't smoke. If you want to quit eating chocolate, get chocolate out of your house. Because when the stimulus is there, you're much more likely to do it. So just avoiding it if you can is the first thing.

Starting point is 00:37:48 sometimes you can't avoid it. So if you can't avoid it, then you're going to need to learn to adjust, to adjust your behavior. So it kind of fits that. You know, look, I love chocolate. I can't get it all the house because my wife likes to eat it too. And she wants it to be here. But I need to realize when I see this chocolate, I'm going to be tempted to eat it. So how can I adjust my behavior so that I don't? Yeah. And like you mentioned, like a big trigger is your environment. So in your book, you say, if we do not create and control our environment, our environment creates and controls us. You call the environment things like the devil and that we should treat it like our enemy. Why such the hard feelings, could you dig into that a little deeper?

Starting point is 00:38:29 Well, what happens is I'm reading a book now called Deep Work. It's a great book. It talks about social media and how we can become completely addicted to social media in a way that's not healthy. The average kid that's flunking out of school in the United States spends 55 hours a week on non-academic media. So, yeah, it's like an addiction. And he talks about how Facebook can be addictive and depressing. And the more hours you spend on Facebook, the more depressed you tend to be for two reasons. One, you see all these fake lives.

Starting point is 00:39:03 You know, the vacation's always positive and the kids are always beautiful. And you think, gee, my life isn't as good as that. Well, nobody's life is that good. It's a fake life. Or you're posting fake lives and you realize that's not really me. Anyway, it's depressing either way. So I think, you know, very important to realize that we are bombarded by stimulus. And this hasn't become less real in the new world.

Starting point is 00:39:22 This has become a lot more real. And we need to really back away and say, am I being controlled by this or am I controlling this? And if we're not careful, we end up being controlled by this. So when I was a professor at Dartmouth, the young man used to drive me a limo driver back and forth. And he flunked out of school. He spent 25,000 hours of his life playing a video game. of Warcraft, 25,000 hours. That's an addiction.

Starting point is 00:39:49 You get two PhDs in 25,000 hours. You played a video game. Well, that's an addiction. So you really need to be sensitive to how much am I controlling this and how much is this controlling me? Yeah. Can you talk about some of the ways that we can change our habits? We talked about the daily questions, but are there any other commitment devices that we

Starting point is 00:40:12 can employ? get help in the same way that, you know, I have help. I have someone called me every day. Why? I need help. If you haven't fixed it by yourself in the last 10 years, you're probably not going to fix it by yourself next week. Just admit you need help and it's okay to need help. Like I said, my book triggers. Look at the names of the people who are saying book. I'm CEO of the United States. I need help. I'm the presidential middle freedom. I need help. I'm head of the world's largest pharmaceutical company. I need help. Well, they're not too good to get help. don't be above getting help because we almost all need help. And again, if you could do it by yourself, you would have done it by now. Yeah. So you have these concepts of magic moves. Two of them we covered, the power of asking active questions, asking for help, which you just covered, but we didn't cover two of them, apology and optimism. Could you tell us more about these magic moves? Well, let's start with apology. Very important, all of my clients who do this, They all get confidential feedback, and none of them are feedback is perfect.

Starting point is 00:41:15 So I'll have things to approve. So the first thing I tell them is they say they apologize. Say, for example, you know, I've gotten feedback indicates I need to be a better listener. If I've not listened to your other people, I'm sorry, please accept my apology. There's no excuse. Well, if you want everybody else to take responsibility as a leader, let them watch you take responsibility. Let them watch you take responsibility. and that's, you know, a very important message to send a role model to people.

Starting point is 00:41:42 Don't try to be better than everybody else. Just be a fellow human being and everybody takes responsibility. The other one is optimism, and this has been studied to death. I mean, if you don't believe you're going to do something, you probably won't. If you tell yourself, I can't do this, that's just the way I am. Well, you probably are right. You can't do it, and that's just the way you are. You have to tell yourself, why am I saying this is just the way I am?

Starting point is 00:42:06 why am I saying I can't do this? Unless you have an incurable genetic defect, you can probably change. Well, since almost no one I coach has incurable genetic defects, they can all get better. You know, you can't make yourself taller. Optimism won't make yourself taller, but you can become a better listener or better with people. You can be better at giving recognition. These are all positive things you can change, not things you can't change. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:32 One thing that we didn't get to touch on that I think is actually really important. and you just alluded to it, is listening. What makes listening so powerful? Well, you know, if you want to show concern for other people, you need to be able to listen. What is the message you communicate to people when you're not listening? I don't only care about what you have to say or you. And one thing I teach people on listening,

Starting point is 00:42:53 this is somewhat counterintuitive as this. A lot of people think we don't listen, not by what we say, but how we look. So I always try to teach my clients, pretend you're on video. and you're going to be judged by do you look like you care. Number one, it'll probably help you be a better listener, but people will feel you're a better listener.

Starting point is 00:43:13 Now, have you ever had this happen before? Has anyone ever looked at you and said, you're not listening? Yeah. And then have you ever repeated what they said verbatim to prove they were wrong? Well, that doesn't really help the relationship. When somebody says you're not listening, what they're really saying is you don't care.

Starting point is 00:43:28 You see, if you look like you cared, no one would ever say you're not listening. What they're really saying is you don't look, like you care. And the higher up you go, the more important this becomes. At the CEO level, this is critically important. Let's say I'm in a meeting. I've heard this presentation 20 times before. I know everything that's going to be said. It's been vetted 12 times before I see it. On the other hand, if I look bored and disinterested, the young person making the presentation, this will break their heart. It feels terrible. So I teach people, look, you've got to look like you

Starting point is 00:44:01 care. And that's not being a phony. That's being a professional. You've got to communicate to that person, what you're saying is important to me. And not just to what you say and how you look. And if you don't, they'll just be devastated. So it's a great lesson to learn at all levels of management. When you're young, it's important and when you're old. It's important. Yeah, totally agree.

Starting point is 00:44:19 So to close out the episode, you have an article on ink.com that's called, Do you have Mojo or Nojo? And I thought it would be a cute and memorable way to end the show. Could you tell our listeners the difference between Mojo and Nojo? Mojo is that positive spirit towards life, which starts on the inside and radiates to the outside. And you see that when you go to the store, check into the hotel at the airport, you know, it's that positive spirit which radiates to the outside. And Nojo is exactly the opposite. It's that negative spirit which radiates to the outside. It's spirit that says,

Starting point is 00:44:56 I don't want to be here. I don't like this. I don't happen. I don't want to talk to you. So I think very important as we journey through life to look at two things. One, generating that positive spirit inside ourselves. And going back to those questions, you know, am I doing my best today to be happy? Am I doing my best to find meaning? Am I doing my best to be engaged? Build relationships.

Starting point is 00:45:18 Generating that positive spirit inside yourself. And then number two, back to imagine you're on video, communicating that positive spirit to everyone around you. And I think, as you mentioned a couple of times, even more important at home than it is at work. communicating the spirit of, I'm happy to see you. I love you. You're important to me. And good to do those good things at work, even better to do them at home. And how about nojo? Well, no Joe is the opposite. That's, you know, I'm frustrated, I'm angry.

Starting point is 00:45:47 I don't want to be here to go away. I'm going to, I say American Airlines, I have over 11 million frequent flight miles. I want a three-hour flight. One flight of 10, it's positive, motivated, upbeat, enthusiastic, and the other is negative, bitter, angry, and cynical. I'm sure you've been on the same flight. Well, what's the difference? It's not American Airlines. It's the flight attendant. It's what's in our heart.

Starting point is 00:46:09 It's what's different. And really, don't get lost on the environment. Let me give your listeners my final good advice. Are you ready? I'd like everybody, take a deep breath. Imagine you're 95 years old and you're just getting ready to die. Right before you take that last breath, you're giving a beautiful gift. The ability to go back in time and talk to the person that's listening to

Starting point is 00:46:31 me right now. The ability to help that person be a better leader and have a happier life. What advice would that why is old person have for the young person that's listening to me right now? Well, whatever your listeners are thinking now, do that. In terms of performance, the presence, that's the only one that matters. That old person sees you did the right thing you did. That old person says you made a mistake you did. You don't have to impress anybody else. Some of my friends interviewed old folks who were dying and got to ask this question. What advice what you have. On the personal side, three things. Theme number one, three words. Be happy now. Not next week, not next month, not next year. Be happy now. The Great Western

Starting point is 00:47:11 disease, I'll be happy when. When I get that money status, B&W, condominium, we all have the same when. Learning point from old people. I got so busy looking for what I didn't have, I couldn't see what I did have. I had everything. All your listeners, many of them are smart people, hardworking people, good people, compared to me, young people. Don't get so focused on what you don't have, you can't see what you do. Learning point, number two, on the personal side, we've discussed several times, friends and family, you realize these people are important. And number three is you have a dream, go for it.

Starting point is 00:47:41 Because you don't go for it when you're 35, you may not when you're 85. It doesn't have to be a big one, maybe a little one. Go to New Zealand, speak Spanish. Whatever it is, just do it. Business advice isn't much different. Number one, life is short, have fun. Number two is do whatever. you can do to help people. And the main reason to do that has nothing to do with money or status

Starting point is 00:48:00 or getting ahead. The main reason to do it is a 95-year-old. You'll be proud of you because you did and disappointed because you don't. And then finally, go for it. Old people, we almost never regret the risk we take and fail. We always regret the risk we fail to take. And finally, thank you so much for asking me to be on your podcast. And I hope that it's been useful to your listeners and help them have a little better life. It has. So where can our listeners go to find more about you and everything that you do. Send me an email, Marshall with 2L at MarshallGaulsmint.com. Website, I've got 300 videos online,

Starting point is 00:48:34 www. www.marshalgoltzman.com. Go to any of these sites. And I have new stuff on LinkedIn, 1.3 million followers. I can't do any more LinkedIn connections because they tap out after, I think, 30 or 40,000, but I can do more followers. And so go to any of those sites, and I'm happy to share everything I know with everyone.

Starting point is 00:48:54 Awesome. It was such an honor. I want to be respectful of our time. So thank you so much for joining Young and Profiting Podcast. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me and I hope I get to see you in New York sometime.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Marshall Goldsmith, #1 Business Executive Coach Shares His Secrets for Training CEOs and Entrepreneurs | Leadership

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