Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Robert Cialdini, The Godfather of Influence and Persuasion Reveals All | Human Behavior

Starting point is 00:00:00 Oh boy, young improfitors, we got a good one in store for you today. I'm so excited to say that we're replaying Robert Sheldini. I love it when like a classic is like really a classic. And man, this is like a classic Yap episode. And guys, I feel really pumped to play this because this is one of my favorite episodes. I remember when Robert Sheldini said yes to come on the show. I was so excited. It was episode 196 of the podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:39 It first aired in November 2022. And I swear he was probably referenced on my podcast 50 times before I actually got him on the show. Everybody references him. Chase Hughes, Chris Voss, Alex Formosy, everybody uses his stuff because he is the godfather when it comes to influence. Robert Chaldingy is a best-selling author, speaker, professor, social psychologist. He's known for his work on the science of influence. He's the author of the classic bestseller influence, which has sold millions of copies.

Starting point is 00:01:12 And in this episode, Robert digs deep into the seven universal principles of persuasion, including super interesting topics like social proof, authority, scarcity. We also get into his law of reciprocity. It's a super powerful influencing tool that I've continued to use to this day. And to be honest, I use all of Robert's stuff.

Starting point is 00:01:31 His stuff is gold. There's so many gems in this conversation. if you're into sales, into persuasion, if you just want people to like you, you're going to love this episode. Let's get right into my conversation with the amazingly talented godfather of influence, Robert Sheldini. Robert, before we dive into persuasion and influence, I want to take it back to your career journey. You actually said that you ended up studying persuasion because you always felt like you were a pushover growing up. So can you tell us about the days before you were the godfather of influence

Starting point is 00:02:05 and what first sparked your interest in this field? Yeah, even before I went to university, I was always a pushover for the appeals of various sales operators or fundraisers who would come to my door, and I would find myself in unwanted possession of these things. And it occurred to me that there must be something else then besides the merits of the offer that got me to say, yes,

Starting point is 00:02:34 It must be a set of psychological factors involved in the way those merits were presented to me that got my assent. And I always thought, well, that was intriguing. That's truly an intriguing thing. And I kept that at the back of my mind when I went on to school. And so you actually studied animal behavior in school. And then you ended up switching gears midway. What happened there? Share that story.

Starting point is 00:03:02 Yeah, I was studying animal behavior because my... my advisor at the time was an animal behaviorist, and I was working in his lab and had never taken a class in social psychology, but I had a mad crush on a girlfriend I had at that time, and she was taking a social psychology course. And there happened to be an empty seat next to her, and I filled that seat. And by the end of the semester, I was much more attracted to human, behavior than to animal behavior. And so with that in mind, I decided to go ahead and apply to social psychology programs, especially those that focused on my lifelong interest in the psychology of influence. It's so funny how sometimes these little decisions in life, they lead us to

Starting point is 00:03:56 such big decisions in our life and set off a whole career trajectory. Like, had you not taken that class, you may not have realized how much it interested you. And if there hadn't been an empty seat next to my girlfriend at the time, you and I wouldn't be talking. I would be having a very different conversation with somebody else, if anybody at all. So you're right about serendipity. I think it's a greatly underrecognized factor in the attainment of various people who have made it. the name in their particular arena. 100%.

Starting point is 00:04:36 So let's get into the meat and potatoes of this interview because I feel like I have so many questions for you and I, you are like the person to talk to you about influence. So let's get some foundational things out of the way first. So a lot of people think that persuasion is like mind tricks or manipulation. But it's very important in business to understand how to influence and persuade people because at the end of the day, businesses need to be able to persuade their customers to buy so that they can stay in business. So I'd love to understand your opinion on the ethics of persuasion, especially when it comes to utilizing those tactics in business. Ethics, that's crucial. You've put your

Starting point is 00:05:16 finger on a major concern of mine since I began to study the influence process, because, as we'll see, these principles give us dynamite. But you can use dynamite. But you can use dynamite. for good or ill. You can use dynamite to help build a bridge or you can use it to blow up a bridge. And the key is to build bridges with those principles. So you have long-term enduring relationships with the people that you're influencing. So they want to continue to do business with you on into the future. And so one more foundational question. And then we'll move on to your seven universal principles of influence. I feel like this concept of mental shortcuts is really important, and I think we'll circle back to it a few times in this interview. So when making a decision, it would make

Starting point is 00:06:07 sense that humans would consider all the factors in order to make a good decision, but it's actually not the case in reality. We have very overloaded lives. We've got information overload, and we often need shortcuts to guide our decision making. Can you talk to us about why humans require mental shortcuts and some of the pros and cons behind that? We live in the most information overloaded, stimulus-saturated environment that has ever existed on our planet. We have so much information, so many options, so many challenges, so many choices that we couldn't stop and consider fully each of them and be able to go on with our everyday interactions

Starting point is 00:06:52 with people. So we need shortcuts to be able to signal a good choice on the basis of one or another highly predictive feature of that situation that normally steers us correctly. Let's say the fact that there's genuine authority opinion that favors the particular position that we have. If we can bring that to the surface early on in our presentation, look at these testimonials, from people who are legitimately constituted experts, our audience members will say, oh, well, that's enough. I don't need to consider this myself. The authorities have said this is the right thing.

Starting point is 00:07:36 I can go on, make that decision, and deal with all the other decisions that I have to make in my information overloaded day. Yeah. And what are some of the things I can go wrong with mental shortcuts? So because they are shortcuts, sometimes there are profiteers that lie along the paths of those shortcuts who try to trick us into moving in their direction by giving us one of those principles when it doesn't really exist naturally in the situation.

Starting point is 00:08:09 They counterfeit it or they fabricate it there. They say that they have authority when they truly don't have authority in the situation. They might dress in a way that connotes authority or might have a particular kind of diction or they might tell us that they have certain kinds of degrees and diplomas that they don't really have. And they trick us into using that shortcut. That's the thing we have to watch out for. And we have to penalize those people who do that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:43 So hopefully in this interview, you guys are going to learn how to defend yourself against those types of things because you're going to understand some of the tactics that you can use to persuade people and that people are going to use to try to persuade you. So it's this like whole game that we've got to play in business. So let's move on to your seven principles. You have these seven principles of persuasion that we can all use. The first three principles that I kind of bundled together, it's all about relationships and that would be reciprocity, liking, and unity. So this idea of reciprocity, and I think I'm going to spend a lot of time here because I think it's really eye-opening and there's a lot of nuggets to uncover with this first principle.

Starting point is 00:09:21 This rule of reciprocity states that we should try to repay in kind when another person has provided to us. So can you help us understand the power of reciprocity and how it's ingrained in us as humans to always pay our debts? Yes. Well, it exists in every human culture. There's not a single society, human society on earth, that fails to train its members from childhood in this rule you must not take without giving in return. If I remember your birthday

Starting point is 00:09:53 with a card, you should remember mine with a card. If I do you a favor on, you owe me a favor. And in the realm of reciprocity and influence, people say yes to those they owe. If you don't give back to those you owe, you are ostracized from the society. People don't want to interact with you. They don't want to deal with you. You're considered a freeloader or an ingrate or a taker or a moocher. Nobody wants those labels. So people will feel obligated to give back after they have received. The implication for business is we have to go first. We have to give benefits, advantages, information that will enhance somebody else's outcomes who will then feel grateful to us and obligated to enhance our outcomes. There was a lovely little study done

Starting point is 00:10:54 by in certain McDonald's franchises. One week, every family that came in to the location was all the children of each family were given a balloon. Half of them were given the balloon as they left as a nice thank you for patronizing the McDonald's location. The other half were given a balloon when they entered, and their parents bought 25% more food, because the kids got something first, not after, first. And there was an interesting feature in that, and that is in the 25% increase in purchase, there was a 20% increase in purchase of coffee. So the children weren't getting the coffee. parents were. But if you do my child a favor, you've done a favor for me. And I'm going to buy more of your,

Starting point is 00:11:54 more of your offerings. Yeah. So if you're new to a situation in business and you go into a room with people you haven't known before and you're going to try to do business with them, you shouldn't look around the room and ask yourself, hmm, who can most help me here? The question should be, whom can I most help here? And once you've done that, that person is your advocate. That person is your supporter. That person is standing on the balls of his or her feet waiting to get the chance to help you in return.

Starting point is 00:12:32 Yeah, I love this. I want to stick on this golden rule, right? You must not take without giving in return. That is so important. It guides so many of our actions as humans. And in business, there's so many examples of this, like giving. giving free samples at a grocery store or having a charity foundation sending you like stickers and asking for a donation or even they sometimes they'll send a dollar and they'll be like

Starting point is 00:12:56 and then you feel so indebted that you have to reciprocate. So what are some other examples in business that you can think of that utilize this reciprocation tactic? Well, where people offer online free information you might want to help you with your business. You can send a white paper, you can send a study, you can send an analysis or a podcast link to something that would be relevant. And once that has occurred, people feel a sense of obligation to give back to you for what you have provided them. And especially the case, if you can, let's say you get something that comes across your desk that's a new study that just appeared. It's not even published yet. And you have a colleague who you want to warm up to you.

Starting point is 00:13:50 You want this colleague to feel more at one with you and more partnership. And so go to that person with that new study and say, I just got this today. Nobody else has this information. It's not even published yet. But I'd like to give it to you to make sure that you can profit from. That person is going to feel obligated and grateful. to you for giving that particular thing, especially if it's something that nobody else has, not even publish it. By the way, you know that McDonald's study that I told you about

Starting point is 00:14:27 with giving balloons as people leave or as they enter, not even published yet. I love that. It's such a great example. And it's really important to note that you have to give first. That's what reciprocation is all about. It's giving first. And I'm the CEO of a social media agency and I run a lot of influencer accounts. And it's the same principle. You've got to educate if you want to build a community that trusts you and wants to actually buy from you. You've got to give first. And often you're giving your best stuff away for free. That's usually the way that you do it because that's what's really going to get people hooked and feel like they need to give something back because you've really added value to their lives. Right. And the criticism

Starting point is 00:15:07 is if you give away your best stuff or even some of your highly effective stuff, Well, why do they need you? That's wrongheaded. Here's why they need you. You're a partner who has valuable information and resources to provide. They want to continue to work with such a person. Yeah, 100%. So let's talk about how to do this correctly because you say that we shouldn't say things like, oh, it's no big deal or don't worry about it when we do a favor. Why is it important to make sure that we don't downplay our favors? You know, that's really a good question. because so many times in my history, I've done a big favor for somebody, beyond the call of duty. You know, I really went out of my way to do it.

Starting point is 00:15:55 And then that person thanks me genuinely and with real integrity in the way that they're saying. I really appreciate what you did for me. And I used to hear myself say, oh, don't think anything of it. No big deal. Just part of the job. Would have done it for anybody. and it wasn't even true. And I realized I had just slapped out of the window with the side of my hand one of the most powerful

Starting point is 00:16:22 influences that exist in human culture by diminishing or dismissing what I did. So now, here's what I advise to people who find themselves in that position. Never wave your hand and say, oh, don't think anything about it, no problem. Don't say that. I hear that all the time. Here's what you say. If it's somebody inside your organization, you say, of course, I was glad to do so. I was glad to help. It's what we do for one another here. You put that person on record, of course. This is what we do for one another. So when you need something from that person, that individual is ready to give it. It's what we do here. Now, if it's for somebody outside of, of the organization, I would say something slightly different. Once again, I would say, well, I'm

Starting point is 00:17:17 glad to have the chance to help. I know that if the situation were ever reversed, you do the same for me. You do the same for me. See, again, you put the person on record. This wasn't just something that you were owed. No, there's an exchange here. We give to one another. And, oh, and please, don't say, if the situation had been reversed, I know you would have done the same for me. That's in the past. That will never appear again. You say, if it were to occur, I know you'd do the same for me. So again, in the future, that person has been primed to be ready to give to you on the basis

Starting point is 00:18:05 of what you have honestly and earnestly done for them. Yeah, that is just such a good point. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. At Yap, we have a super unique company culture. We're all about obsessive excellence. We even call ourselves scrappy hustlers. And I'm really picky when it comes to my employees. My team is growing every day.

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Starting point is 00:19:38 I used to dread missing important calls. I remember I lost a huge potential partnership because the follow-up thread got completely lost in my messy communication system. Well, this year, I'm focused on not missing any opportunities, and that starts with your business communications. A missed call is money and growth out the door. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled QUO, the smarter way to run your business communications. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2, and it works right from an app on your phone or computer. The way Quo works is magic for team alignment. Your whole team can handle calls and text from one shared number and everyone sees the full conversation. It's like having access to a shared email inbox,

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Starting point is 00:22:11 Framer.com slash profiting. Rules and restrictions apply. A lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs or business owners, and they're having a lot of problems retaining their employees with the great resignation and quiet quitting and all this stuff going on. And I read in your book that you can actually use reciprocity to retain employees.

Starting point is 00:22:32 And you've got a great story about how an employee stayed longer at his job because of the kindness of his boss. So do you recall that story? can you share with us how we can use that tactic to help retain our employees? Yeah. In my book, I have something called Reader's Reports. People who've read an earlier edition of the book, Influence, I invite them to write into me and give me examples of a time when they experienced one or another of these principles. They used effectively, was used on them effectively, or they just observed it being used effectively. And this one,

Starting point is 00:23:10 One woman wrote about her boss, who was such a kind individual. He would remember her birthdays. He would remember the birthdays of her children and give them little gifts or cards of one sort or another. And she was so taken by this that she said, I'm at the top of my employment category right now. I can't move up any farther. But I'm not going to leave my boss until. he's in a position to retire in a couple of years, because he's been so good to me, I can't possibly leave him. Now, I just saw a study that provided data to support this idea. It was a study done in Belgium where researchers looked at a manager who gave their employees information about how they can submit data to be able to move around within the company, actually leave their department.

Starting point is 00:24:15 Not only didn't they leave, these people became more productive and more willing to take on voluntary safety activities that had been a problem in the past. And when the researchers asked these employees why, they said, I owed it to my boss. for providing me with this kind of information that would help me in the future. So it's kind of like if I care about you, you're going to care about me. So show care to your employees. They'll show care back and want to stay with you longer. That's exactly right.

Starting point is 00:24:51 The rule for reciprocity works along all behavioral dimensions, including, by the way, if you do somebody wrong, they stand ready to do you wrong. Oh, I want to learn more about that. Don't do it. Be ethical. Be good. Be kind. Be helpful. And that's what flows back rather than any kind of coercion or trickery or any kind of deceit. Yeah, totally. So let's go one more layer deep on reciprocity and then we'll move on. Let's talk about the rejection and retreat method and why it's beneficial to get people to say no to a large request and then they can make a concession to the real request that you wanted. I don't think it's beneficial to start out with something that you want people to say no to,

Starting point is 00:25:39 but if you go into a situation with different alternatives you can give to people, begin with the one at the top, the one that will provide the most benefit to all concerned, even though it might be the more expensive one. Because if they say, oh, well, that's great, but I can't afford that, then you get to retreat to the next most beneficial eye. option. And in that retreat, people feel a need to reciprocate and retreat from their position of no. This happened to me. I remember I was walking down a city street and was approached by a Boy Scout. He wanted me to buy tickets to the Boy Scout circus that was going to be held that weekend,

Starting point is 00:26:26 $5 a piece. This is a while ago. And I said, no, to be honest, I didn't want to spend my weekend with the Boy Scouts. He said, oh, well, if you can't do that, would you buy a couple of our chocolate bars here? They're only one dollar apiece. And I bought a couple of his chocolate bars and immediately recognized that something important had happened because I don't like chocolate bars, but I like dollars. And I was standing there with two of his chocolate bars and he was walking away with two of my dollars. because he retreated from an initial request. So in any situation you go into, have more than one option ahead of time prepared.

Starting point is 00:27:13 Begin with the one that's going to be best for all concerned. If that one is a no, then retreat to the next one. And you get a reciprocal retreat in turn. And it's important to make sure that you ask one thing and let them say no. And then you go in with a second ask. And then you go in. That's right.

Starting point is 00:27:34 Exactly. So if they've said no, then you can retreat from that no. And it's their turn now to retreat in your direction. Yeah. Let's talk about how we defend against reciprocity so that we don't actually get tricked in business when we're trying to make purchasing decisions. Yeah. The key is to recognize that what you have been given is not a true benefit.

Starting point is 00:28:00 to you or a true gift or favor, it's a device to get you to do something for them. I don't know if you've purchased a new car recently, but if you go into the car showroom, the car salesmen are programmed to offer you a soft drink or a cup of coffee or tea or they give you something first. Don't think of that as a gift. That's a device. It's designed to get you to feel a reciprocal obligation to give something back. No, just take it for what it is, which is a sales device, and then you're not obligated to reply with a yes. You're not obligated to give favors back to people who've used sales devices on you. You're only obligated to give favors to people who've done genuine favors for you. Yeah. Otherwise, you'll end up walking off the lot with a car

Starting point is 00:28:59 that you have to keep for a while because somebody gave you a soft drink when you walked on the door. Right. They don't just use that, of course. They do all kinds of other things associated with the principles of influence, but that's one of the things they all all do. 100%. So let's move on to the next principle, which is liking or likability. And when it comes to getting people to say yes, what do you think we need to know about the liking principle and what are some tactics we can use to get people to like us? So nobody would be surprised. to learn that we prefer to say yes to those we like. However, there are a couple of small things we can do that increase the rapport that people feel with us as a result of doing something

Starting point is 00:29:44 that honestly exists in the situation that leads to liking. One is pointing to genuine commonalities or similarities that exist between the two of you. People like those. People like those, who are like them. There was a study done on negotiators. There was a study with people who were negotiating over email on a very difficult problem. And because it was so difficult, and because email is such a bloodless communication channel, in 30% of the cases, there was no mutual agreement on the negotiation. Both sides walked away losing with nothing. That was for half in the negotiators. The other half were asked to send some information back and forth to one another about themselves before they began the negotiation. Their hobbies and interests and family

Starting point is 00:30:43 situation and backgrounds and major and college and those kinds of things. And now deadlocked negotiations dropped from 30% to 6%. And when the researchers investigated the reason, it wasn't because of the amount of information that had been transmitted between the two parties. It was whether in that information there were parallels, there were commonalities. Oh, you're a runner? I'm a runner. You're an only child? I'm an only child.

Starting point is 00:31:19 That was the key, finding genuine commonalities, which led to a sense of rapport. and people gave each other grace in the negotiations rather than walking away. And I know that another tactic that we can use, especially if we don't know somebody well, to get them to like us, is to give them a compliment. What happens when we give people compliments? Right. So we said that people like those who are like them. They also like those who do like them and say so, who give them praise.

Starting point is 00:31:55 And this would be an easy thing to do again. You look for something that's naturally in the situation, like genuine similarity. You can also look for commendable, admirable features of a person and simply comment on it. This is my greatest weakness. I, for whatever reason, have had a difficult time giving genuine compliments to people interactions. I can tell you how many times in research meetings with my graduate students, I've said to myself, that was a brilliant insight that Hall I just had, or that was really a great way of encapsulating our next step forward that Jason provided. And I said it to myself, and I didn't get any of the goodwill that would come from giving that compliment honestly and genuinely out loud. So now I've made a small switch. Any time I

Starting point is 00:32:55 hear myself saying something admirable or praiseworthy about somebody I'm dealing with, I move that praise from my mind to my tongue, and I say so. I can't tell you how positive the effects of that have been for our interactions and the desire for us to continue to interact with one another because we like one another more. It's such like a small but powerful tip. I remember I used to work retail when I was a teen and in college. I would always be the top seller and I did this unknowingly, but I would always give compliments to the people who walked.

Starting point is 00:33:39 I'd be like, oh, I love your earrings. And then I would have a conversation with them, get to know them, and they would end up buying a lot. We also have to be careful when somebody is kind of sucking up to us too much when they're trying to make a sale. Hey, great shirt there, Jim. Watch out for that. It's what you did was brilliant.

Starting point is 00:33:59 You looked for something that you liked or found praiseworthy and commented on it. That's what I call a detective of influence rather than a smuggler of that principle into a situation where it doesn't naturally exist. That's the winner. Yeah. And I bet if you're in a situation where you're trying to buy something, if you realize that somebody keeps giving you compliments on things that aren't really praiseworthy. That's a red flag to know that they're trying to influence you. Right. We were talking about car dealerships. I infiltrated car dealerships to learn more about what they did. And that's another thing they will do. They will complement you on your choices of

Starting point is 00:34:40 interior colors or various kinds of choices that you make for add-ons and so on. They'll complement you invariably. That's funny. So speaking of car. dealerships. I think a really great example is this Joe Girard formula that you talk about. So he was the number one car salesman by the Guinness Book of Records. I think he sold more than six cars a day every day, which is really, really unheard of. So tell us about the Joe Girard formula and how he's likeability to boost his sales. So what Joe Gerard, he was a people person. And one of the things he did to make sure that people liked him was he would send a holiday greeting card every month, no matter what the month. So if it was February, it was happy Valentine's Day. If it was October, it was happy Halloween.

Starting point is 00:35:34 If it was December, it was happy holidays, Christmas or whatever. He would send every one of his 15,000 prior customers a card that said, happy holidays. And when you opened it up, it said, I like you, Joe Gerard. That's all. Now, that sounds expensive on the one hand, but that man could sell cars. He knew how to get people on his side and to remind them every month that he liked them. And he was named the best car salesman of all time by the Guinness Book of World Records. So to do this ethically, I think, it would be trying to actually find things that you like about another person genuinely when you're trying to get them to work with you or whatever it is. Right. The wonderful thing about that, you find what you like about that person and you tell that person, about it, who likes you, and by finding something admirable, you've come to like them more.

Starting point is 00:36:44 So now you have two people who like one another doing business. It doesn't get better than that. Yeah. So interesting. I find this stuff so fascinating. So just to go another layer deeper on likeability, let's talk about the halo effect. How does the halo effect play into all of this? So the halo effect refers to the fact that if there's one prominent thing that you see as positive about other individuals, that transfers to all kinds of other things about that person. You regard that person more highly on other dimensions as well. So, for example, one positive dimension is physical attractiveness. People assign high. moral values and higher intelligence to people who are physically attractive, just because that positive halo generalizes to all kinds of other things. So, for example, it's been found that

Starting point is 00:37:47 elementary school teachers assign greater intelligence to their children who are prettier or better looking, even though their test scores don't deserve it. they just have a positive regard that extends to these other measures. So this is the process of association, just raw association. If there's something positive about this person, we associate positivity with this individual in a general kind of way. So what can we do then to increase our halo effect? What are some of the things we can do?

Starting point is 00:38:24 We can connect ourselves, again, to those things that we find out that other people hold in a positive light. So we can also say, well, you know, I like that too. And I like something else that's associated with this thing that you value. So we can see ourselves as associated. We can become to be seen as associated with the things that people value. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Happy New Year, Yap, gang.

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Starting point is 00:43:38 It has to do with something I've seen all around us recently, and that is this tendency for us to identify with certain kinds of people who we see as one of us, not just similar to us, but of us. So, for example, there was a study done on a college campus where researchers took a young, woman who's about college age and dressed like a student would, asked her to go to a heavily traffic part of campus and ask for contributions to the United Way in front of a United Way table. And she was getting some contributions because of similarity. She was the same age and dressed similarly to other students. But if she added one statement before she made a request for a contribution, she increased her donations by 450%. So what was the sentence? The sentence was,

Starting point is 00:44:41 I'm a student here too. I'm not just similar to you in age and dress. I'm one of you. And people say yes to those individuals they feel a sense of belonging with to the same social and personal categories. And we see it now with politics, where people who are in one camp or another are much more favorable and so on to others who are also in that camp. It's true in neighborhoods. It's true in communities. It's true in religious denominations and so on. And for business purposes, it's true in organizations. If we raise to consciousness that we are members of the same organization, we're pulling together, where we have the same goals, people are more likely to say yes to us as a result of just pointing out that we are united in this particular category.

Starting point is 00:45:44 Yeah. So in a nutshell, people are inclined to say yes to somebody that they consider one of them. So if we can ever try to figure out what our commonalities are with another person and we call them out, they're more likely to feel like they relate to us, they understand us. They're one of us, a we relationship, you call it, right? And they're more likely to say yes. And they're categories, though, that define us, not, oh, you like Korean food, I like Korean food. No, not that. It's that define us.

Starting point is 00:46:13 Like ethnicity, age, gender, those kind of things? Right. So that's the next one. In fact, remember that Joe Girard example we gave that everybody bought from him? There was a guy in Michigan who outsold Joe. His name was Ali. And how did he do it? Well, he said, I used all of Joe's tactics. Well, if he used his tactics, how did he outsell him? Well, Ali was, lived in a town called Dearborn, Michigan, where a very large population is from Arabic backgrounds. And he sold into that population. He was of them. And he was able to do better even than Joe Durard by using Joe's strategy and adding this one thing, unity. So, so interesting. So let's move on to the next two principles I bundled together. That's social proof and authority. And I think they both have to do with reducing uncertainty. once we've already established a relationship and things like that.

Starting point is 00:47:17 So social proof to me is really, really important in business. I'm the CEO of a social media agency like I mentioned. And social proof is really what helps people decide what they want to believe. And I would love to understand if you can talk to us about the psychology behind social proof and why we tend to have a herd mentality as humans. First of all, let me compliment you on that insight that both social proof and authority work by reducing uncertainty that people have about what they should do next. If the authorities are saying that something is the right direction to take or that this particular

Starting point is 00:47:57 product or service as an excellent one, that reduces my uncertainty about what I should choose in that situation. Oh, well, this is what the experts are saying. I can stop calibrating and and evaluating, I can just go in that direction. So when people are uncertain, they don't look inside themselves for answers. They only look outside. And one place they look is authorities. The other place they look is social proof. They look to their peers. What are the people around them like them doing in this situation? Which also reduces uncertainty about what you should do. If all your friends are waving about a new film or a new restaurant or a new piece of software, they've beta tested it for you. So it's probably the right thing to do. Both of them reduce

Starting point is 00:48:49 uncertainty and allow you to get off the fence and get into the game. Yeah. And again, it's another like mental shortcut, right? It's a way for us to make a decision without needing to spend so much time because other people have already made that decision for us, basically. They've beta tested the offer for us. Yeah. And so obviously, I feel like everybody knows about reviews. It's often the first thing that we check now because a lot of buying happens online. But I'd like to focus on some less obvious examples of social proof.

Starting point is 00:49:22 So for example, when a marketer says that a product or service is the fastest growing or the best selling, right? those are also social proof tactics that they use in marketing language. Do you have any other like non-obvious ways in business that people use social proof? There was a study done about, there was another one of these readers reports in which a guy who was a car salesman wrote in and said, we sent out a radio commercial where we were trying to get new people to come and work for us for our dealership. And we said, we need more people to come and work for us. And all of a sudden, we got not just more people applying for a job, but more people coming in. And when they ask them why, this is what people said,

Starting point is 00:50:14 well, if you need more people, you must have a lot of individuals who want your cars. So we took that as a sign of social proof, not just a need to employ more. salespeople, we took that to mean, oh, this must be a good dealership with good cars because they need more staff. So you should always like think about your accomplishments and things like that. I can even see it with my podcast. Sometimes I'm ranking high and the charts are actually trending charts. So my reach is always the same. But sometimes I'm number one and then everyone wants to come on my show. But my reach is the same. It's just that the social proof has changed. Right. So it's just so funny to see that like how much that really impacts people. Yeah. So let's move on to authority. You've got this authority principle,

Starting point is 00:51:03 which highlights the idea that people tend to listen to the advice and recommendations of experts. And so, for example, you say that physiotherapists can better influence our clients to exercise when they have credentials on their walls in their offices. So what are some other tactics that we can use to be perceived as an authority figure? Well, for example, if you have a site online or you have an ad, you should include the testimonials, not just of other customers, that's social proof, but of experts whose opinion fits with what you are saying. And that research has shown, that significantly increases the likelihood of assent to your message, including, by the way, if you do so with multiple experts rather than a single expert, you do even better.

Starting point is 00:51:58 Let's talk about why people are so obsessed with appearing consistent with their previous actions. And what do we need to know about that in order to better persuade other people? People want to be consistent with what they have already said or done. They also want to appear consistent to those around them because people like those who are consistent, who are predictable, who say what they mean and mean what they say, who match what they say to what they do and so on. And so if we can simply point to what people have already done in a particular situation and then ask them to be consistent with it, they're much more likely to do it. For example, we can increase the likelihood that people will donate to a cause if we show

Starting point is 00:52:45 them that in their history, they have donated to this type of cause. That's so interesting. Well, I really appreciated this conversation. We always on the show with two questions. And so you can just, it doesn't have to be about influence in terms of how you respond. You can just respond from your heart. So the first one is, what is one actionable thing that are young and profitors can do today to become more profiting tomorrow? And profiting is not just about money. When they need support or buy-in from their colleagues for an idea that they have, Don't ask their colleagues for their opinion about your idea. Ask for their advice about it.

Starting point is 00:53:28 Because when you ask for an opinion, you get a critic. When you ask for their advice, you get a partner. And they're much more willing to join you in this idea and support it. Very cool. And what is your secret to profiting in life? My secret is always to be authentic, always to be ethical. in the approaches that you use. I love it.

Starting point is 00:53:53 Robert, thank you so much for joining us, the Godfather of influence. We appreciated your time here on Young and Profiting Podcast. I enjoyed it.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Robert Cialdini, The Godfather of Influence and Persuasion Reveals All | Human Behavior

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