Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Scott Adams on The Art of Persuasion

Starting point is 00:00:00 This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. You can crush your fingers and all your toes during a data center migration. You can knock on wood, pluck a dozen for leaf clovers or look to your lucky stars for a successful office expansion.

Starting point is 00:00:24 You could hold your breath, shut your eyes, and say all the well wishes to help avoid cyber attacks. But none of that truly helps you. Because next level moments need the next level network. With the security, reliability, and expertise to take your business further. AT&T Business. The network you can rely on. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit.

Starting point is 00:00:53 Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the

Starting point is 00:01:21 right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhanced and productivity, had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button, because you'll love it here at Young & Profiting Podcast. Hey, Young & Profiters, today we're talking about persuasion. The topic of persuasion can get a bad rap.

Starting point is 00:01:53 When we hear the word persuasion, we often think of manipulation. And let's be real, if people are persuasive and if they have bad intentions, they can definitely be manipulative. But at the end of the day, persuasion really just boils down to effective communication. How can I communicate so others take my ideas seriously? And there's nothing manipulative or negative about that. Everyone wants to be heard, and today's episode I'm joined by Scott Adams to discuss how to

Starting point is 00:02:21 be more persuasive. Scott is the creator of the popular comic strip Dilbert, and in recent years he's become an authoritative voice in the field of persuasion. He's a New York Times bestseller of when bigly persuasion in a world where facts don't matter, and Scott's name may ring a bell if you're into politics. We do discuss political events in this conversation, but the examples are meant for educational purposes only. Scott and I discuss talent stacking, confirmation bias, mass delusions, common persuasion tactics, branding, how to avoid being manipulated, and so much more. This YAP Classic is a highlight of episode number 38, so be sure to check out that full unedited version if you love the content in

Starting point is 00:03:06 this episode. Again, that's number 38 for the full unedited version and we'll stick that link in our show notes. If you're wanting to improve your negotiation skills, communicate your ideas more skillfully and better influence the people around you, this episode is for you. This episode is for you. I've heard you say in the past that luck always plays a part in success. So do you think luck factored in your success with Dilbert? And why do you believe that luck is a big part of being successful? Yeah, luck is, I would say, a necessary component. It's not sufficient.

Starting point is 00:03:43 You still have to work hard and have some talent and all that. But you have to have luck also because if luck goes the other way and you have bad luck, there's just nothing you can do to compensate for that. But that sounds a little hopeless and defeatist as in, well, if luck doesn't find me, what can I do? But I'm saying nothing like that. Here's what I'm saying. Luck can be found. It doesn't find you. So for example, when I was born in a very small town in upstate New York, after I got my college degree, the first thing I did was get out of that town, because the odds of luck finding me in a small town with no opportunity were very small.

Starting point is 00:04:22 But once I went to San Francisco and tried to make a life in the Bay Area, there was luck all around. If one thing didn't work out, I could go across the street to another company. If that didn't work out, I could go across the street again. So there were infinite opportunities to accidentally find luck.

Starting point is 00:04:41 And if you don't change your circumstance and put yourself in those positions, it's never going to find you. And then on top of that, the other piece of advice that goes well with that is what I call talent stacking, where you build a number of talents that work well together. In my case, I'm not the world's greatest writer, and I'm not even anywhere near the best artist, but I can do both of those things. And then I also had a background in business so I had a content to write about.

Starting point is 00:05:09 So if you had business skill with writing skill, with artistic skill, none of those three skills has to be world class. It's just that they fit together really well. And so I always recommend whatever you're doing, make sure that you add some complimentary skills because that's what makes a luck look for you. That's great advice.

Starting point is 00:05:31 Now people have been interviewing you about Dilbert for decades. You wrote a book early in your career on the Dilbert principle and we could go on and on about, you know, stuff that you've done earlier in your career. But my podcast is aimed to help listeners grow financially and professionally. And so I'm going to focus the bulk of this episode on persuasion, which I know you're an expert on. These days, you've positioned yourself as an expert. Before we get into the nitty-gritty on that, I just want to know how difficult was it for you to go from cartoonists to having a brand all about being a master persuader and things like that? Well, first of all, it's expensive because the topics I talk about

Starting point is 00:06:11 are in the political realm and it's very easy to say something that will cause somebody say, I will never buy your book or calendar again because of that one time you disagreed with me and it doesn't matter if you're right, I just disagree. So it was very expensive, but I knew it would be. And I'm also at a point in my life where I have enough wealth that if things go wrong, I'm still fine. And so I had the opportunity to do something that other people simply couldn't do because it would be too dangerous to their brand, too risky, to the reputation, too expensive. But I have a high risk tolerance, which is also a learned skill, to some extent. And I didn't know exactly where it would all go.

Starting point is 00:06:56 I just started blogging about it, and that turned into doing live streaming on Periscope and tweeting about it. And next thing, you know, I've got, I know, 325,000 Twitter followers and people wanting me on TV and stuff. So one of the other things I recommend for people trying to figure out life is you should try lots of stuff. And if that stuff doesn't work right away, or at least doesn't show signs that it could work, then bail out and try something else. So I've probably failed nine and a ten times. I've tried things throughout my entire career.

Starting point is 00:07:32 But the reason that you're talking to me is that one and a ten things don't just work, but they work fabulously. They work so well that it compensates for all the things that don't work. So even this morning, I was talking about how to maybe build down a studio and expand what I'm doing with live streaming, etc. Now, I don't know if that'll work, or it'll be just a big waste of money. But I do know that I can tiptoe into it. I can find out what does work, and I can back out without much of a loss. So, that's my recommendation is put your efforts into a whole bunch of little baskets and then see if the basket shows signs that it could sustain itself if you keep working on it.

Starting point is 00:08:11 In other words, does it show interest that's really strong from the first moment? That's always a good indicator, even if everything else is going wrong. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's kind of like, you know, experiment, lean into what works and make sure you fail fast if you think that nothing is sticking. Great advice. So what makes you an expert on persuasion? What credentials do you have in that area? Well, first of all, I never called myself an expert, but much of the press has called me that. My background is that I'm a trained hypnotist. So in my 20s, I went to school to become a hypnotist. And the things I learned about how people think

Starting point is 00:08:50 and how they're persuaded and the limits of rational thought were world changing. And the biggest change is that most people believe that human beings are rational creatures most of the time. The common view is that, oh, 90% of the time we're rational about things. Sure, every now and then, let's say 10% of the time, we get a little crazy and, you know, we get emotional and maybe we lose sight of reason. But mostly we're rational creatures and therefore you should build a message around that rationality.

Starting point is 00:09:23 But people who study this stuff from hypnotists to any kind of mind-controlled people to advertisers all know that none of that's true. We are a fundamentally irrational species who is only rational, maybe 10% of the time. But it's the 10% where there's no emotion and there's nothing on the line. So for example, if you're just balancing your checkbook, for example, that's just math. You could probably do that rationally. If you're trying to find the most direct path to work, you could probably figure that out rationally.

Starting point is 00:09:55 But if you're trying to figure out who to marry, what job to have, whether to fall in love, what political group to follow. That's all irrational. We join teams, we make decisions based on biases and bigotry and things we've heard that aren't true, and then we rationalize them after the fact. So that was my first exposure to that way of thinking. But what followed was decades of practice and study on my own of all the forms of persuasion. And that includes visual persuasion. You know, how do you make a PowerPoint presentation? How do you draw a comic that persuades to using words and combining messages and with various content? So as part of my job as a writer and cartoonist, I'm always absorbing everything I can in that topic.

Starting point is 00:10:46 And getting back to my earlier point about a talent stack, part of what makes me a better writer is that I've added that specific talent to my stack. I would recommend that no matter what you're doing, no matter what your career is, even if it's a technology career, if you're a math teacher, it doesn't matter. You should also learn the basics of persuasion, because it's useful for just everything. Yeah. So big part of this is all the different biases that people have. There's several you talk about in your book, Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, Consistency Bias.

Starting point is 00:11:20 Could you just walk us through some of these filters that people have that prevent them from looking at things rationally? bias, could you just walk us through some of these filters that people have that prevent them from looking at things rationally? Well, I think the team filter is got to be the biggest one. So people identify, they pick a lifestyle and they say, I'm one of these people. If you showed people a bunch of pictures of different types of people, they would tell you, well, I'm probably going to agree with the person you show me in this picture or this picture. So I think for politics, it doesn't get much beyond that.

Starting point is 00:11:52 Now, people also have other biases. You know, they have racial bias, they have bias about, you know, everything from whether somebody has a handicap, to age, to gender, you know, we are a very, very biased civilization. But I don't think that can be removed from the human being. And the problem is that people are also pattern recognition machines. We look for patterns and we say, okay, that's the pattern. And now I know something.

Starting point is 00:12:20 But the problem is we're really terrible at finding patterns. So if five people from Albania punched you in the mouth when you're on the street, you would conclude, well, there's a pattern. Everybody from El Bonia is a puncture. I'd better stay away from all El Bonians. But maybe what you don't know is that you happen to be there during the convention of El Bonian punctures or something. That's a ridiculous example.

Starting point is 00:12:42 But there's generally some context that would explain your experience, but you don't know the context. So you just say, well, five Elbonyans, five of them punched me in the face. They're punchers. I guess that's it. And we're continually going through life imagining that we see patterns, but a lot of it is just confirmation bias, and not really a pattern. It's a fake pattern. So confirmation bias for those who haven't heard of that term means that we have a tendency to see what we expect to see and we will define what we see and interpret it as compatible with what we already thought was true. So even if you show somebody evidence that refutes what they believe to be true, they will twist it in their mind until it doesn't exist or that it really does support them. That's the

Starting point is 00:13:30 normal way minds work. Cool. And something that really caught my attention was your thoughts around mass delusions. Can you tell us why you think mass delusions occur and maybe provide some examples of the biggest mass delusions you think exist right now. Well yeah, mass delusions are common through a history and maybe so common that they're more common than the truth. But we wouldn't know because we're continually in them. I give you one of the best examples from history. There was a case, I forget, as a few decades ago called the MacMartin Preschool case. And the people who managed this preschool were accused of being Satanists who were taking the

Starting point is 00:14:13 children to a secret room beneath the preschool and subjecting them to all kinds of violent and horrible satanic rituals. And the reason that the police believe this was true is that they talked to a number of students and a number of students said it was true. So what are you gonna do if you've got, you know, a dozen students or however many was, but it was a lot who have some version of the same story.

Starting point is 00:14:39 So they bring him to court and it turns out that there was no underground thing at all. There was literally no piece of evidence to suggest any of it was true, but people couldn't figure out that why are all these kids saying it's true? It doesn't make sense. You couldn't get that many people

Starting point is 00:14:56 to say the same thing unless it was true. And then somebody who understands how this stuff works, probably somebody who'd been either a police trainer or maybe somebody who had experience with hypnosis looked at the tapes of the police interviewing the children. And once you look at them and you have my skillset, you can see what went wrong. They were actually suggesting to the kids that this was happening and the kids are so easily influenced that they would imagine it was true and feed it back to the police as if they were and even add details.

Starting point is 00:15:30 So if the police had done it right, they would say, can you tell us anything that's going on to the school, anything seem on it place. And that if the kids had said, yeah, on a place, they've got a satanic basement, that's out of place, that probably would have been useful information. But if the police say we've had some reports that some things are going on with people being taken to basements, have you ever been taken to the basement? If you say that to a young kid,

Starting point is 00:15:57 there's a pretty good chance the kid is going to look you in the eye and say, yeah, I've been to that basement. And I know exactly what you mean. And it's just imagination. After a while, they'll actually talk themselves into it. And the child will actually form a false memory of something that didn't happen on their own. So that was a famous case of a mass hysteria.

Starting point is 00:16:17 Of course, the Salem witch trials where the Puritans thought that some people were witches. And then everybody imagined they were seeing witchcraft everywhere But of course none of that was true One of the ways that I advised people to tell what's an illusion? What isn't is if people are seeing different things while looking at the same evidence the people who imagine some extra stuff there Are probably the ones imagining it So for example if you if somebody says,

Starting point is 00:16:45 hey, there's an elephant in the room with us and you look around and there's no elephant, and you say, I don't see an elephant. And the other says, look right here. It's right in front of you. A giant elephant. You can usually count on the person who does see it is the one hallucinating because we don't usually hallucinate subtractions from the environment. So it's unusual to say, hey, there's no furniture in this room, and then the other person says, yes, there is. It's more typical that you add something to the environment that's not there. And so you see that in politics all the time. It's people imagining they could read the mind of the president, and even though what he did or said wasn't so bad, they think that they can tell by the word choice

Starting point is 00:17:26 that his real inner thoughts, the things he didn't say are bad as well. And so that's the situation we have now that people imagine they could read minds of complete strangers and they see terrible evil in there. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward

Starting point is 00:17:49 with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success. Instead, learn everything you need to know about running a business for free by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. The Millionaire University podcast is a show that's changing the game for aspiring entrepreneurs. Hosted by Justin and Tara Williams show that's changing the game for aspiring entrepreneurs. Hosted by Justin and Tara Williams, it's the ultimate resource for those who want to run a successful business and graduate rich, not broke. Justin and Tara started from Square One, just like you and me. They faced lows and dug themselves out of huge debt.

Starting point is 00:18:19 Now they're financially free and they're sharing their hard-earned lessons with all of us. That's right, millionaire university will teach you everything you need to know about starting and growing a successful business. No degrees required. In each episode you'll gain invaluable insights from seasoned entrepreneurs and mentors who truly understand what it takes to succeed. From topics like how to start a software business without creating your own software, to more

Starting point is 00:18:41 broad discussions such as eight businesses you can start tomorrow to make 10K plus month, this podcast has it all. So don't wait, now is the time to turn your business idea into a reality by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. New episodes drop Mondays and Thursdays, find the Millionaire University podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Your dog is an important part of your family. Don't settle when it comes to their health. Make the switch to fresh food made with real ingredients that are backed by science with nom nom. Nom nom delivers fresh dog food

Starting point is 00:19:14 that is personalized to your dog's individual needs. Each portion is tailored to ensure your dog gets the nutrition they need, so you can watch them thrive. Nom nom's ingredients are cooked individually and then mix together because science tells us that every protein, carb, and veggie has different cooking times and methods. This packs in all the vitamins and minerals your dog needs so they truly get the most out of every single bite. And Nom-nom is completely free of additives, fillers, and mystery

Starting point is 00:19:41 ingredients that contribute to bloating and low energy. Your dog deserves only the best, and nom nom delivers just that. Their nutrient packed recipes are crafted by board certified veterinary nutritionists, made fresh and shipped to your door. Absolutely free! Nom nom meals started just $2.40, and every meal is cooked in company owned kitchens right here in the US, and they've already delivered over 40 million meals, inspiring clean bowls and wagging tails everywhere. Ever since I started feeding my dog Nom Nom, he's been so much more energetic,

Starting point is 00:20:15 and he's getting older, he's a senior dog, but now we've been going on longer walks, and he's much more playful. He used to be pretty sluggish and sleeping all the time, but I've definitely noticed a major improvement since I started feeding him nom nom. And the best part, they offer a money back guarantee. If your dog's tail isn't wagging within 30 days, they'll refund your first order. No fillers, no nonsense, just nom nom.

Starting point is 00:20:40 Go right now for 50% off your no risk two week trial at trinom.com-jap. That's trinom.nom.com-jap for 50% off trinom.com-jap. How does fear relate to persuasion? And how is fear used in our last election to persuade voters one way or another. So the most powerful persuasion is fear. Because if you're afraid of something, that's the thing you have to act on first. It's the thing you can't put off until later. We evolved or we were designed, depending on your point of view, to have brains that respond first to danger. And if we didn't, we'd all be dead. Because, you know, if a wild animal enters the room,

Starting point is 00:21:27 you can't really, you know, work on your crossword puzzle while that's happening. So in the election, we saw that Trump was claiming that we had danger from people coming in who are not legal citizens. And they might come in and cause some crimes. So he used that kind of fear. He used the fear that the economy would have a problem if somebody else got elected.

Starting point is 00:21:49 And then Hillary Clinton's team, also using high end persuaders as their advisors, came up with the idea that President Trump would be dark. They used the word dark, which is a real professional persuasion word. And also the thing that tells you that they were using professionals to advise them. When you hear dark, that's a good hypnosis word because you read into it, whatever you thought is the worst case scenario. So instead of making specific claims, which you might say, well, that specific claim doesn't sound exactly like something I believe is going to happen. Instead, Hillary started saying, it's a dark image, it's a dark future, it's a dark idea,

Starting point is 00:22:29 and people start saying, hey, I have some ideas of my own, what might go wrong, and they do sound kind of dark. So it was a way to capture all of those vague worries into one word and weaponize it for the election. So both sides used fear at its maximum, and you see that continuing today, President Trump still uses fear as part of his persuasion. Hey, we'd better build a wall because, you know, crimes and drugs are coming. And the opposition is using fear the other way, which is, hey, if we protect our borders, it's a slippery slope,

Starting point is 00:23:05 and the next thing you know, he's going to be rounding up citizens of the United States and putting them in concentration camps for whatever reason your hysteria imagines. Why is being descriptive and illustrating a visual really important when it comes to fear and persuasion in general? Our brains are visual tools, meaning that whatever is visual dominates our thinking. So if you see one thing, but you hear about another thing, the thing you see is going to influence you more, depending on what it is, of course, has to be a powerful visual image. But if it is, that's going to influence you more than a concept. So, for example,

Starting point is 00:23:46 recently there was a story of a very unfortunate event where a father and a young child died trying to come into the United States. And the photograph of them tangled together and dead in the water is at least a hundred times more powerful than somebody saying, on the other side, well, we need strong border security and we should have done this or that or it's really, it's really the prior administration's fault or whatever they say. Those are words, those are concepts, those are ideas, those are sometimes facts, sometimes not. But in any case, they can't compete with a picture. The picture just takes over our brain and dominates our thinking. So you'll see that the president, even when he talks about

Starting point is 00:24:31 things, likes to use verbal pictures. So he doesn't say, we'd like better border security. He says, we want a wall because a wall, you imagine in your head, and you imagine whatever wall, you know, you want to imagine. So he's not too over descriptive, which is also good technique. You'll see that wherever there's a visual competing against the concept, probably 90% of the time the visual beats the concept. Yeah, and another example from my listeners is Trump went on SNL, and he had a skit in the oval office, and after that it became easier for people to imagine him as president. I think another one would be his red hat that he always wore make America

Starting point is 00:25:10 great again. Yeah. And speaking of that, how do you think that helped with his campaign? Well, I think the make America great again slogan is one of the most successful branding slogans of all time. So I think that it's purpose to get him elected in the first place, served its purpose perfectly. The red hats, as you mentioned, makes this huge visual when he has the rallies. So the rallies are as much about exciting the people

Starting point is 00:25:39 who attend as it is creating photographs that people can look at later and see how many people were there. So, if you see that a lot of people are joining a movement, it makes you want to join. So, you see President Trump often complains that the fake news, as he calls them, is not turning their cameras to show how big the crowds are. So, if he can't get the actual picture, he puts the picture in your mind with his words, which is good technique. So you'll say, the crowd here is gigantic.

Starting point is 00:26:08 Little these people, so many people, tens of thousands, the fake news is not showing you, but at least you get a visual in your head just from this description. So that's terribly powerful. And the example you used where he did the Saturday Night Live skit as an actual president before he was president was brilliant because you know that the candidates would get to approve anything that they were in. And he approved one that allowed people to imagine him as president during a time when people literally couldn't imagine it, and that visual allowed them to do it. Whereas Hillary Clinton also had a chance to go on SNL and she approved

Starting point is 00:26:45 a skit that put her in a bar drinking too much. Now that visual probably hurt her and Trump's visual probably helped him and that's one of the reasons I've pointed out that he's better at it than most people including her. So let's move on to some of your tactical persuasion strategies, specifically focusing on some of the oral persuasion strategies that you talk about. Why is it better to be simple and straightforward when you're trying to persuade someone? There's a general estimate, a good rule of thumb, that if you were to give somebody a power point presentation, you don't need the power point, but just the presentation. The people will remember about 10% of it. And if you're smart, you will design your presentation. So the part they remember is the part you care about the most.

Starting point is 00:27:33 So if you keep things simple, you at least create a better chance that the important stuff will be remembered. So when President Trump says, build the wall, that's simple. And he repeats it until all you can think about is that wall, you picture it in your mind. You still might be opposed to it, but you know exactly what he wants. And part of good persuasion and good communication in general is that you want people to know exactly what you want, not approximately what you want. And he is the best we've ever seen, maybe the best we'll ever

Starting point is 00:28:06 see in the future, at being clear and being simple and being repetitive with his messages. Nobody's ever done that better. Yeah, I agree. That's probably why he won. And it's just funny that people didn't realize that he was most likely being strategic. I think you met him in person. Did he admit that he was being strategic about all these things? Or did you not talk to him about that? Well, he's admitted it long before the election because he wrote a book. There was a ghost writer, but it was Trump's book called The Art of the Deal. And The Art of the Deal lays out his techniques that are pretty much what he used to get elected. So for example, he talks specifically about using hyperbole. Now, for those who may not speak English as a first language,

Starting point is 00:28:53 hyperbole in this context refers to exaggerations that are exaggerated enough that the fact-checkers would say, oh, that's not true, but they're in the right direction. So, for example, when Trump says 100,000 people came to my rally and the fact checkers check it and find out it was only, let's say, 20,000, but 20,000 is more than anybody else could get to a rally and it's still pretty darn impressive. You still leave the conversation thinking, wow, a lot of people went to that rally and that's what he's trying to tell you. So the specific stonet matter. And he talks about that in his book. So when the president has been accused of failing the fact checking, I think it's up to 10,000 times. The title of my book,

Starting point is 00:29:38 When Big Lee's, the subtitle was persuasion in a world where facts don't matter. And what I said back in 2050 is you don't see this coming. You think the facts matter, and that's why you're blind to this. He knows the facts don't matter, but it does matter if you're directionally true, because if you're not at least directionally true, people will spot that pretty quickly. So for example, if he says illegal immigration is the biggest problem in the world, but the truth might turn out it's just a big problem and nowhere near the biggest problem in the world, well, you're still convinced that it needs to be addressed, and that's really the the thing he's trying to to get through. So I say that he's been signaling his method all along,

Starting point is 00:30:25 and one of the other things he does, he talks about branding, and then you saw him brand his opponents. You saw low energy jab and lion Ted Cruz and crooked Hillary, etc. And he talks about how he does it, and then he does it right in front of you, and he does it better than it's ever been done. To the point where simply branding Jeb Bush as low energy

Starting point is 00:30:48 caused such a stark contrast in your mind between Jeb's energy and Trumps that it really made a difference and took Bush completely out of the race from being the presumptive winner to being almost a broken leg as soon as he left the starting gate. Now that is impressive persuasion,

Starting point is 00:31:06 and he repeated it so you know it wasn't an accident. Yeah, and you call this a linguistic kill shot, correct? Yeah, I like to brand things too. So this is literally the same technique. By giving it a name, I could have that associated with my thoughts on it, and it allows my brand to expand a little bit. So I use the same techniques President does at a lower scale and by calling it a linguistic kill shot which got picked up by a lot of the media, it gets repeated a lot. I attached myself to a national story and that's also something that a trained persuader would learn to do. So how can we use something like that in real life?

Starting point is 00:31:45 Like say we're arguing with a coworker or whatever it is. Like how could we use that to our advantage? Like can you just take it down a level of to real life? Well some of Trump's techniques are hard to reproduce in real life because he has the superpower that you don't, which is as he likes to say, he can take the heat. And boy, can he take the heat? So he can take criticism of the kind that would make other people just dig a hole and bury themselves. So if you can do that, then

Starting point is 00:32:17 you can use all of his techniques. But if you're not comfortable with that, you have to pair it back to some easy stuff. So for example, you could certainly use fear and let's just use an example at your work place. If one person says, plan A is good, and the other person says plan B is good, and let's say you're for plan B. Instead of saying, well, here are all my facts, and here's my research, you could say, plan A, we don't know if it's the best one or not, but plan B, we could all die. Plan B could put us out in a business. Plan B could actually kill somebody. Now that might not be

Starting point is 00:32:51 exactly true. You might be exaggerating how dangerous it is, but when people question it, they're going to say, that's not true. It's not going to actually kill anybody. That's an exaggeration. it's not going to actually kill anybody. That's an exaggeration. But it might wound somebody and it might drop our profits by 30%. So the person who used the hyperbole drew the other person into agreeing that there could be some really bad things and made them think about them, made them visualize them in their own mind. So you can use hyperbole at work as long as you can take the heat for also failing the fact-checking. Another thing that Trump does really well is he makes you think past the sale. It's one of the most powerful sales tools. The way a car salesman would do it, or salesperson, that salesperson would say, you know, do you like the red car or the blue one? Because they're making you think past the question of whether you want to buy one, and they're making you think of the details.

Starting point is 00:33:50 The president uses this technique, and by the way, it's well demonstrated that this works. When he talks about, for example, either North Korea or Iran, he doesn't just say, give up your nuclear weapons. That's what the bad persuaders of the past used to say. He says, if you give up your nuclear weapons, you can have this amazing future. And actually, I believe he had a video at one point showing North Korea's lights all coming on and prosperity and lots of visual persuasion. So he makes you think about what the country is going to be like after you give up your nukes, same with Iran.

Starting point is 00:34:26 He says Iran could be this amazing, amazing country. Your economy could boom if you give up these nukes. So he makes you live in the future that you imagine, where you've thought past the decision, do we keep our nuclear weapons, do we develop nuclear weapons or not, into a future where you imagine yourself there and you've got peace and prosperity because you made that decision in the past. That is a very strong persuasion technique.

Starting point is 00:34:52 The president uses it all the time and you rarely see it from other people. And there's no reason for it except that they're less trained. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. You hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now, but in case you don't,

Starting point is 00:35:09 that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you sell edgy t-shirts or offer an educational course like me, Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Shopify is packed with industry leading tools that are ready to

Starting point is 00:35:30 ignite your growth, giving you complete control over your business and brand without having to learn any new skills in design or code. And Shopify grows with you no matter how big your business gets. Thanks to an endless list of integrations and third party apps, anything you can think of from on-demand printing to accounting to chatbots, Shopify has everything you need to revolutionize your business. If you're a regular listener, you probably know that I use Shopify to sell my LinkedIn secrets masterclass.

Starting point is 00:35:58 Setting up my Shopify store just took me a few days. I didn't have to worry about my website and how I was gonna collect payments and how I was gonna trigger abandoned cart emails and all these things that Shopify does for me was just a click of a button, even setting up my chat bot was just a click of a button. It was so easy to do.

Starting point is 00:36:17 Like I said, just took a couple of days and so it just allowed me to focus on my actual product and making sure my LinkedIn masterclass was the best it could be and I was able to focus on my marketing. So Shopify really, really helped me make sure that my masterclass was going to be a success right off the bat and enabled focus. And focus is everything when it comes to entrepreneurship. With Shopify single dashboard, I can manage my orders and my payments from anywhere in the world.

Starting point is 00:36:43 And like I said, it's one of my favorite things to do every day is check my Shopify dashboard. It is a rush of dopamine to see all those blinking lights around the world showing me where everybody is logging on on the site. I love it. I highly recommend it. Shopify is a platform that I use every single day and it can take your business to the next level. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopfide.com-profiting. Again, go to shopfide.com-profiting all lowercase to take your business to the next level today. Again, that shopfide.com-profiting shopfide.com-profiting all lowercase. This is Possibility powered by shopfife. Yeah, bam.

Starting point is 00:37:24 If you're ready to take your business to new heights, break through to the six or seven-figure mark or learn from the world's most successful people, look no further because the Kelly Roach show has got you covered. Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely talented marketer. She's the owner of NotOne, but six thriving companies, and now she's ready to share her knowledge and experience with you on the Kelly Roach show. Kelly is an inspirational entrepreneur, and I highly respect her. She's been a guest on YAP.

Starting point is 00:37:53 She was a former social client. She's a podcast client. And I remember when she came on Young and Profiting and she talked about her conviction marketing framework. It was like mind blowing to me. I remember immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company and the marketing efforts that we were doing. And as a marketer, I really, really respect all Kelly has done, all Kelly has built. In the corporate world,

Starting point is 00:38:16 Kelly secured seven promotions in just eight years, but she didn't just stop there. She was working in I to five. And at the same time, her 8-figure company as a side hustle and eventually took it and made her full time hustle. And her strategic business goals led her to win the prestigious Inc. 500 award for the fastest growing business in the United States. She's built an empire, she's earned a life-changing wealth. And on top of all that, she maintains a happy marriage and a healthy home life. On the Kelly Road Show, you'll learn that it's possible to have it all. Tune into the Kelly Road Show as she unveils her secrets for growing your business.

Starting point is 00:38:51 It doesn't matter if you're just starting out in your career or if you're already a seasoned entrepreneur. In each episode, Kelly shares the truth about what it takes to create rapid, exponential growth. Unlock your potential, unleash your success, and start living your dream life today. Tune into the Kelly Road Show available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, yaap fam!

Starting point is 00:39:11 As you may know, I've been a full-time entrepreneur for three years now. Yet media blew up so fast, it was really hard to keep everything under control, but things have settled a bit, and I'm really focused on revamping and improving our company culture. I have 16 employees, so it's a lot of people to try to rally and motivate, and I recently had best selling author Kim Scott on the show. And after previewing her content in our conversation, I just knew I had to take her class on masterclass, tackle the hard conversations with Radical Cander to really absorb all she has to offer. And now I'm using her Radical Cander method every day with my team to give in solicit

Starting point is 00:39:49 feedback, to cultivate a more inclusive culture, and to empower them with my honesty. And I can see my team feeling more motivated and energized already. They are really receptive to this framework, and I'm so happy because I really needed this class. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace. And we all know that profiting in life doesn't just mean thriving in business. With Masterclass, you can brush up on your art skills or your cooking skills or even your modeling skills. With over 180 classes from a range of world class instructors,

Starting point is 00:40:24 that thing you've always wanted to do better is just a few clicks away. On Masterclass you'll find courses from many app-a-all star guests like Chris Voss and Daniel Pink. I've been taking their sales and negotiation classes and I've been feeling like a real shark lately. I've totally leveled up my sales skills. How much would it cost you to take a one-on-one class from the world's best? A lot. But with Masterclass annual memberships,

Starting point is 00:40:50 it just cost you $10 a month. I have to say the most surprising thing about Masterclass since I started this incredible journey on the platform is the value. For the quality of classes, instructors, the platform itself is beautiful. The videos are super high quality. You can't beat it gain new skills and as little as 10 minutes on your phone,

Starting point is 00:41:12 your computer tablet smart TV and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go. That way I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now as the app listener you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com-profiting. That's masterclass.com-profiting for 15% off an annual membership. Masterclass.com-profiting. Another persuasion strategy that I think we could apply ourselves, that you talk about in your book is to propose an outrageous solution and then over time dial it back to position yourself as someone who's compromising. Can you explain how to do that and why it works?

Starting point is 00:41:53 Yes, that's the big offer. So anybody who negotiates is familiar with this technique, you walk into the office and say, I will not sell you these products for less than $1 million. And the other person is like, who? I was only planning to offer $100,000, but now that that million dollars is in my mind, I'm already biased towards something in between, maybe $500,000. But it could be that the person who said a million was just hoping to get the deal bigger than 400,000. And the person who was thinking of offering 100,000,

Starting point is 00:42:30 here's a million and they don't offer 100,000 after that. They think, oh, darn it, I'm gonna have to go somewhere closer to the middle. How about 500,000? And then the person who offered a million, but really would have been happy with 400,000, says, I'll take it because I did okay. So you see the president do this with, for example, anything with

Starting point is 00:42:50 immigration. So at first he wants a wall, that's a big giant wall, and it's really expensive, and it's going to be every inch of the border. But then as people talk about how impractical and expensive that might be, it turns into, well, it doesn't have to be a wall so much it could be a barrier, it could be similar to the barriers that we've used before. And I'm not talking about every place, just the places that are important. And we don't have to do it all right away. We could spread this out over time. And that sort of thing. So asking for a lot and settling for a little less is standard sales technique. We see the president using it more aggressively than other people have and to good

Starting point is 00:43:29 effect I think. Yeah, so something similar to this idea is presenting our solutions in the context of worse alternatives. It's again moving towards compromising, moving the needle closer to what we want by using an extreme. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, that's the concept of contrast. I said earlier that we're pattern-recognizing machines anyway are, but we're also contrast machines. So if a real estate broker takes you to a house that's too expensive, you say, well, I don't want to buy that house and then you're done. But a real estate broker takes you to a house that you say you could afford. Let's say you say my budget is this much.

Starting point is 00:44:09 The real estate agent will take you to the best house that fits your budget. And the first thing you're going to find is it's not nearly as good as you want it to be. And then they're going to say, well, just for contrast, just so you know what the options are, I know this is beyond your budget, or at least the budget you want to spend. But let me show you what one looks like that's a little bit more expensive. And then when you see it, you say to yourself, oh man, I did not want to spend this much on a house, but now that I can compare it to the one I thought I could afford more easily, there's just no contest anymore. I have to have this better house. So contrast will make your non-critical faculties kick in pretty hard.

Starting point is 00:44:48 And you'll say, I want to avoid that bad one. This good one suddenly looks much better. Interesting. Last question on persuasion. You were talking about talent stacking before. I think it also relates to persuasion and stacking your persuasion skills. So can you talk about some of the talent stack that Trump's persuasion skills were composed of and why it's important to layer on skills and not just be a one tactic person? Yeah, Trump actually has

Starting point is 00:45:20 the most powerful set of talents you'll ever see even if you allow that not one of those talents, not a single one, is top shelf world class. So for example, there are people who are probably better at branding. There are people who are probably better at giving a speech. There are probably people who are better at business. People who are better at politics. People who know more about all the details of policy, and you can go right down the line.

Starting point is 00:45:47 But who do you know, and I'll tell you the answer, there's nobody who can do branding, plus command, a giant rally crowd, keep them totally entertained the entire time, who can run the government like a reality show and make that work? Who can hire and fire as quickly as the guy who's famous for firing people quickly, who can see a business situation

Starting point is 00:46:10 faster, who has more experience negotiating. And again, it would be perfectly fair to say, well, I could find you a better negotiator, or I could find you somebody who gives a better speech. But good luck finding somebody who has all of that stuff and can do all of those things well above average. That's what makes him magic and makes him powerful. And it also made his success invisible to people who couldn't see the talent stack. Because if you make the mistake of looking at it the old way, you say, well, he's not the best at any of these things. And these are the things you need to be present. Therefore, how can he be present? I looked at those things and

Starting point is 00:46:50 said, oh my goodness, we've never seen a stack like this. This isn't the most powerful combination of skills. Emphasis combination, you'll ever see. So having business experience on top of politics, on top of persuasion, on top of branding, on top of reality show, on top of speech giving and all that, you just can't find a better combination than that. Interesting. I thought it was my last question on persuasion, but there's one question that I think is really relevant to my listeners and it's being on the other side of the coin. So how can we protect ourselves from bending towards someone's will or getting persuaded ourselves? Like how can we be free thinkers and be as unbiased as possible?

Starting point is 00:47:37 Well, it's very hard because even people who are experts that this can be persuaded. I feel myself being persuaded all the time, and in theory, I should have every tool to protect from it, but I feel like I have a little protection. So the things that you can do is learn as much about persuasion as possible. So my book, Wind Bigly, is a good introduction to that, and it references other sources that if you wanted to follow up. So first of all, knowing how irrational people are helps. The second thing you should do is look for how often you agree with your team

Starting point is 00:48:11 and whether or not you ever disagree seriously, because if you never disagree with your team, you got a problem. You're probably not a serious player. But if sometimes you disagree with the team that gives you some hope that you might be breaking out of your bubble, I have a new book coming out called Loser Think that'll be out in November 2019. And that teaches you more about how to break out of your bubble. But the questions would be, am I just agree with my team? If this were some other person in this situation, would I have the same feeling? In other words, you know, if we're a Democrat who said it, would I feel the same as if a Republican said

Starting point is 00:48:49 exactly the same thing? That's a good test. And then the next thing you do is expose yourself to as many different opinions as possible. In the political realm, especially, if you don't see both Fox News and CNN, I'm just using them as proxies for two sides. If you don't see both Fox News and CNN, I'm just using them as proxies for, you know, two sides. If you don't see both sides and you only see the little tunnel that one side presents,

Starting point is 00:49:11 you couldn't possibly understand the full situation. And the other thing is to understand that so often the news is fake. And I mean that literally. In fact, today almost all the headlines on today's news are literally fake, in which a long quote is taken in a context to only show the first part, which reverses its meaning. So and you'll see that over and over again. So make sure you expand your knowledge based on different silos of information. So those are the main things.

Starting point is 00:49:43 And then, wait for loser think, my my book to give you some more. Awesome. Tell our listeners where they can find out more about you and everything that you do. Best place to find me is on Twitter at at Scott Adams says or dillber.com to follow dillberd itself and my Twitter will get you to everything else. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I think this was a really educational conversation. And I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much. I love the questions and it was a pleasure to be here. What a fantastic episode. There's so much good stuff in here that everyone can benefit from. Scott is really a master at the art of persuasion. And my favorite takeaway from this episode

Starting point is 00:50:30 is the idea of talent stacking. The more things we're good at, the more valuable our skillset becomes. It just makes sense. Now, this doesn't mean you have to be the absolute best at each thing, but having a set of skills that can feed off each other will set you up for success.

Starting point is 00:50:45 For listeners looking to grow their careers, this is some of the best advice that I've heard on the podcast. And when it comes to persuasion, talent stacking is just as important. Techniques we talked about in this episode like visuals, hyperbole, the linguistic kill shot and fear are all important to learn and practice and build upon your skill sets. If you understand how to use these tools, you will be prepared to persuade anyone at any time. Another crucial thing Scott talked about is the importance of clear, simple, repetitive messaging.

Starting point is 00:51:16 People only remember 10% of what they learn. By reiterating the most important points in clear, concise ways, you can make that 10% count. This is super powerful stuff. And lastly, we also talked about how to avoid being persuaded and be an independent thinker. This is especially important to end with because we are constantly being influenced. The news are favorite celebrities, TV shows, you name it, they're all persuading us to think one way or another.

Starting point is 00:51:42 By learning about persuasion, diversifying your networks, and exposing yourself to different news sources, you can expand your view of the world and start thinking for yourself. Being able to sift through bias and consider each side of the problem are skills that will benefit you for the rest of your life. Let's keep on learning and get to talent stacking.

Starting point is 00:52:02 I've included links to Scott's books and his full length episode in the show notes. It's number 38 if you forgot, and if you enjoyed this topic, be sure to check all of that content out. As always, thanks for listening, and thanks to my app team for making this possible. Keep crushing it out there.

Starting point is 00:52:18 This is Hala, signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science,

Starting point is 00:52:45 ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like know yourself better where we discuss questions like, are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever

Starting point is 00:53:12 or simplicity lever? And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happiness. Listen and follow the podcast, Happier with Gretchen Ruben. Text us to receive up to five automated marketing texts to your number. Consent to receive marketing to five automated marketing texts to your number. Consent to receive marketing texts are not required.

Starting point is 00:53:26 Message and data rates may apply. You want to lose weight and get in shape, but every time you try, it only lasts a couple weeks. Well, look, it's not your fault because it's super f*** hard. I'm Carl, the founder of Body. That's Body with an eye, and here's a secret. Most fitness and diet programs don't work long-term because they aren't designed to fit into your life-long term. That's why I created the world's first

Starting point is 00:53:50 health esteem app, and I want you to text me to try it free for 14 days. Body shows you how to enjoy your life while you get healthy and lose weight. Sound too good to be true? Don't say that to our millions of happy members. The next 500 people to text me the word better to 30 30 30 can try body for free for two weeks or get 50% off a paid membership. Text better to 30 30 30. It's gonna work but first you need to be one of the next 500 people to text better to 30 30 30. It's better to 30-30-30.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Scott Adams on The Art of Persuasion

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.