Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Vernā Myers on Overcoming Bias and Promoting Equity | Human Behavior

Starting point is 00:00:01 Young and profitors, welcome to the show. As you probably know, it's Women's History Months. So today, we wanted to replay an episode that focuses on diversity and representation. Our guest is Verna Myers. She formerly served as the VP of Inclusion Strategy at Netflix. She's also the author of two best-selling books and has a viral TED Talk on the topic of diversity and bias. In this Yap classic, Verna will teach us all about diversity, equity, and inclusion. learn the difference between those terms. We talk about how to improve your unconscious bias,

Starting point is 00:00:44 how to platform marginalized groups, how to overcome imposter syndrome, and we'll also learn the positive financial impacts of a diverse workplace, which is super important to know for all of us entrepreneurs. So I'm really excited to play this episode. It's chock full of actionable tips. It is totally relevant. So let's dive right in. Here's my interview with the brilliant Vernon Myers. You know, we do a lot of research here at Young and Profiting Podcast, so I found out that previous to this role at Netflix and before you had a consultant agency on D&I, you were a lawyer and you graduated from Harvard Law and you practiced law for over 10 years. So talk to us about how you made that shift from law into diversity and inclusion and what first sparked that passion.

Starting point is 00:01:33 I arrived at Harvard Law School where there were more people of color than I'd ever go. gone to school with, right? Because prior to that, I was at Barnard College, Columbia University. So it was really, really positive. But then I got a job in a corporate law firm, and I was the first and only black person they'd ever had. And they had no one who was like Latin, Latin X, Asian, you name it. I was kind of like breaking the color line, which kind of blew my mind. Because even though I'm old, it was still the 80s. And I'm like, what? So what happened? happened is I started to recognize that there was just this posity of black lawyers, especially in the Boston area. Because, you know, Boston had still that reputation of being in hospitable

Starting point is 00:02:22 to people of color, in particular, black folks. You know, they had the bustling thing. It was all bad. And so I started really with just a project with a bunch of other black lawyers, I'm trying to think about what it is that we could do to increase the representation. And ultimately, after practicing for a while, we went and created an organization with a bunch of other people who were concerned about this issue, including many white leaders in those law firms. And we started a group that was a consortium of all of these different law firms trying to work on the issue of representation when it came to race. And then it started to expand from black to Asian, to Hispanic, indigenous. you know, Latin X, however back there we were calling it Hispanic, whatever, we move back and forth on these words. So that's how it all started. And I became the executive director of that organization.

Starting point is 00:03:22 Then I went to the Attorney General's office and really spearheaded an initiative there. Then I decided to go out on my own. That's so cool. And so I often talk about something called skill stacking where from all your different experiences, you take these skills and then, you know, one day you can put them all together and then offer something unique to the world, which is what it sounds like you did. So talk to us about your skills as a lawyer and how that relates to what you do now and how you use those skills today. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting because I was talking to one of my colleagues from Harvard Law School yesterday. And I was talking about sort of what the good and the bad of a legal training. So the nice thing about legal training is,

Starting point is 00:04:06 that you're constantly looking for, you've got a critical mindset, right? Which is not to say negative, but it means that you're asking questions. You're looking for what isn't there. You're also trying to figure out what are all the arguments, what are all the perspectives? And that's like really good training for how to examine issues, how to problem solve, etc. The downside for me was that so much of it is adversarial and so much of it is critical that, and so much of it is in the head and it's rational, and it doesn't allow for some of the other skills that are about empathy, listening,

Starting point is 00:04:47 you know, inviting, difference, you know, all of those things are sort of like not what you do in law school. And one of the upsets I had in law school as well as practicing law was, where is the compassion? Where is the ability to see yourself and someone else? rather than see yourself as against someone else, right? And certainly the work of inclusion requires you to develop many skills that are not just about your intellect and not just about your head. And so ultimately, I could take all the sort of critical thinking

Starting point is 00:05:23 that I had been schooled in, and I could also add what comes actually much more naturally to me, which is collaboration and listening and building things together. and looking for commonalities, that kind of thing. I love that. I think that's great that you were able to kind of take some of your experiences from law and then add on to them those soft skills that you were talking about. So let's lay some foundational context for our listeners.

Starting point is 00:05:52 You have a unique definition of diversity and inclusion. I've heard you say before that diversity is being asked to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance. So tell us about that. Expand on that more in your definition. of DNA? Yeah, I would go into these companies and they would be so happy to see me initially. And then I would tell them what I discovered by talking to their employees. And then they would say something like, so, yeah, so the black people, they're not having fun, really? The gay folks

Starting point is 00:06:27 are upset. The women, the women, really? We thought they were doing so well. You know, Barbara seems to be enjoying it here, right? And then I would say, yeah, but what they're saying is they're here. But they're not in the lifeblood of the organization. They're not on the sexy projects. They're not at the highest levels. They aren't feeling a sense of belonging. And the response would always be ultimately, well, thank you so much, but we're not going to change anything.

Starting point is 00:07:00 Right? Because I was dealing with very, very successful companies. and there was a real fear that if they were to do something differently, that they wouldn't be as successful. Somehow they thought they were going to invite difference and stay the same, right? So I thought to them, I kept saying to them, look, you know, if you're serious about this, you're going to have to do something different.

Starting point is 00:07:23 You're going to have to get folks off the wall. It's like a bad middle school dance. You remember those mixers where you would like just hope someone would invite you to dance? You're just like lingering around. bathroom with your girlfriends or whatever, or the punch bowl or whatever. But the leaders are in the position, right, to really create true opportunity, not tokenism, not having one Barbara, who is more like them than anyone else, right, not just looking for themselves and trying to duplicate and replicate themselves, but really, really leaning into the power of difference and inviting that

Starting point is 00:08:02 difference onto the dance floor. So somehow we came up with that particular analogy and it resonates across the world. And now that we're talking more about equity, I'm thinking about adding another piece, which is equity is kind of leveling that playing field, right? Because ultimately, we want to share that power. We want to, we want to all together say, what's the music going to be? You know, where is it going to be, right? For folks who have disabilities, especially physical disability, can I even get into the party, right? So there's still a lot of work to be done to get everybody on the floor and to get the value and the power of that fabulous cocktail of difference. See, it's so interesting how this space keeps expanding and expanding, because to your point,

Starting point is 00:08:48 now everyone's talking about equity, equity, help us understand this concept of equity even further. You alluded to it, but I'd love for you to expand on that. Yeah, I mean, equity is like finally we are going to tell the truth about the playing field. And it's not level. And I'm not the one who says there's no meritocracy, but I am the one that says some folks are in the meritocracy for sure, but a whole bunch of people don't even get to play in the meritocracy. So this is about an acknowledgement of a lot of institutional and systemic barriers to success for people who are super capable, but they just haven't had exposure or opportunity or they've run into bias or discrimination or they don't even know a job exists. That is what blows my mind that, especially like now in

Starting point is 00:09:44 the entertainment industry, there's so many fabulous opportunities and jobs, but folks don't even know. Or they haven't seen themselves behind a camera or they haven't seen themselves as a director or they haven't seen themselves as their story represented. And so their understanding about what's possible is very limited because of seriously long-term exclusion. And in many cases, purposeful exclusion, not just unconscious bias, which I talk a lot about, but consciously trying to maintain dominance and power. or in a set of a group of people. So what you're talking about now really just worked my recollection of imposter syndrome, right? So a lot of people in this world, a lot of people who are often, you know, discriminated against, we're the first ones to have imposter syndrome and think we're not even qualified to have

Starting point is 00:10:42 these jobs that you're talking about. So tell us about imposter syndrome and how it actually relates to diversity. You know what? I was like new to this concept because I was, like, new to this concept because I was, I kept saying to people, what are you out talking about? They were like, you know how you feel like you're not supposed to be there. And I was like, oh, yeah. In fact, I just did a piece on this where I do remember, like, arriving at Harvard Law School

Starting point is 00:11:04 and thinking that it was just a matter of time when someone was going to be knocking on my door and say, oh, sorry, that was actually a mistake. You're not supposed to be here, right? Because you're each time, and this is the truth, each time you go to another level in your life, every time you're courageous enough to say, I'm going to try something. You are going to have to reckon with the fact that you are in a place you've never been before, you with people who are good and maybe even better, but you have actually done the work to get there. So one of the things that I realized is, no, nobody made a mistake. You're here. You worked to get here. Now, do what you know,

Starting point is 00:11:48 how to do so that you can go to the next level. So that's one thing I really want people to recognize. The second thing is it's a whole bunch of people suffering from this. White men suffer from this. Depending on your personality, your background, your lived experience, it doesn't just visit folks who have like traditionally excluded groups or whatever. However, however, there is a way that racism and sexism and other forms of bias and institutionalized kind of systemic bias that suggests that maybe we're not as good, right? So then we start internalizing that. We start internalizing that and then we don't even need racism because we already put ourselves in a position of not being able to be our best selves. We have our own limitations. So much of the work we have to do is to take the

Starting point is 00:12:44 limitations off of ourselves, right? And to not believe that we're not as good. I mean, the counter to the imposterousin syndrome is to stand up in your fullness. And I think sometimes people don't realize that. That is extremely powerful because a lot of the times, like you said, we think that everything is just like against us and it's external when really sometimes part of the problem is internal. But it's because of these external experiences and environments that we've been in in the past and we just have to always kind of start with a clean slate, I think. Yeah, it's not that, you know, it's not that we, it isn't out there. It's not that people haven't tried to box us in. It's just that they don't have to try if we box ourselves in, right? So we got to just keep pushing it,

Starting point is 00:13:28 pushing it. There are ways that we cope, really important. So we don't, you know, have to deal with a lot of nonsense and trauma and stuff. But then there are ways that we can keep pushing. We got to keep testing. How much space is it, right? Because folks talk about like the dog that's chained up in a yard for a while and then all you have to do is do that for a while. And then you can take the chain off of the dog and they'll stay in the yard. Right. And it's just because they're accustomed to that. And so I want to encourage people to take the limits off no matter who you want, no matter what your identity is, no matter what your lived experiences, like really think possibilities because that's the thing that motivates us to be our best selves.

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Starting point is 00:18:17 your own unconscious bias. Would you share that example with us? Oh my goodness. Yeah. So on a plane and initially being thrilled to hear a female voice come over out of the cockpit and thinking, oh my God, women are moving up and feeling all excited. And then it started getting turbulent and bumpy. And I was like, ooh, I hope she can drive. And I have to say how long, I didn't even know that that was a problem until I came back on the leg that night. It was a male pilot. It's always a male pilot. It is often turbulent and bumpy. And I'm like, oh, no, I have never questioned the competence of the pilot.

Starting point is 00:18:51 Right. I mean, you might be over there praying, but you're not saying, is he qualified? I wonder how many years he's had. And, you know, you don't do that. And so I was like, oh, my God, I'm a woman. And I am biased against women. That's a thing. And like I said in the talk, it's because,

Starting point is 00:19:11 All of us have been out here getting the corrupted message, the misinformation, the ways of looking at who's better than and who's supreme. So it filters out and on top of all of us. And then we have to be rejecting it consciously. So the solution to unconscious bias is to know that everybody has it. Because the science is saying basically it's just how our brain has to work. It couldn't possibly deal with every piece of stimuli. So it's got to take shortcuts. It's got to do associations, quick associations. And when things are a high risk, you go way into what you think you already know.

Starting point is 00:19:54 Like Big Tube in the sky, I want a guy. Like that's like your brain has that pattern. Like men drive. By the way, you know men who can't drive. and you know women who can. And even those different experiences still doesn't check the bias sometimes because it's so embedded. So you've got to go looking for it. You got to get out of denial.

Starting point is 00:20:19 Ain't nobody who has a brain. Everybody's got this issue. And then you need to go and say, how do I get conscious about these areas in my life that need attention so that I'm not just constantly unconscious? doing this work. Do you think that that gets better over time? Like you're basically saying like it's going to happen and you've got to catch yourself and kind of tell yourself, oh, this is unconscious bias. What am I doing?

Starting point is 00:20:49 And kind of like walk backwards from there. Does it ever get better in terms of like getting better at not having unconscious bias? It's a good question. You work on it, right? So you sort of say, okay, who are my outgroups? Who are the folks who just go immediately into the less. they impile for me or I have some stereotype. Because then you start focusing on that.

Starting point is 00:21:09 But here's the thing, which is so good and bad, which you can get good on race and be incompetent on disability, right? You could be great on Latinx, but terrible on Asian Americans. You could be one of the people who are like mimicking people who have accents, right? you don't even know that you're doing that. So it's a journey. Your brain's going to do what it's going to do. And be much more conscious.

Starting point is 00:21:41 You got to slow down. You got to ask yourself questions. You got to invite folks to tell you. Because all of us have friends who are like, you're just like, I know you didn't just say that. That's not right. You know, that's not right. And so we have to sort of tell all each other when we see it because we just have gotten so used to trafficking in this kind of. of bias. So I want to move on to a really cool concept that I read about in your book. What if I say

Starting point is 00:22:09 the wrong thing, 25 habits for culturally effective people? It was a fantastic book. And you break down all the different isms. And then you also classify each group of isms into a one-up group and a one-down group. And I thought this was so cool. And I'd love for you to share this framework with our listeners and how we can use it. Thank you. Thank you. I actually got this really great framework from Visions, Inc. Org. They're really great. They do this work. But it's all about how do we think about the social hierarchies that are existing constantly. And how does something move from like a prejudice to an isom? Like how do you go from, you know, for example, racial prejudice to racism? Because people are always like, I'm not a racist. I'm not a racist.

Starting point is 00:22:56 And I'm like, you know, all the racists could stay home and we would still have racism because the ism is that there have been years and years of privileging one group over another, and therefore we know their history or better, or there are more opportunities available, et cetera. And when you have that year after year over and over again, that privilege, that benefit of the doubt and all the benefits that go with it get systematized and repeated and embedded in everything we do and how our organizations are shaped, et cetera. That's how you get to the ism. And so we have heterosexism. We have cis-sexism, right, where we're just always centering

Starting point is 00:23:44 the norm around cisgender people, right? Or we might have people who have English as their first language, and if you're in the United States, that's going to just privilege you in a particular way. Now, let me just say that most people don't believe in this structure anymore, but it doesn't matter because it's on automatic. And so that's why people keep talking about anti-racism, anti-sexism, right? Because you've got to be proactive to get rid of the status quo because the status quo is racism. And so in this chart, you say, which is the group that has been targeted as not as good, less than? And which are the groups that have been given the benefit of the doubt and the privilege? And that group is called the up group.

Starting point is 00:24:34 And then the group that has been excluded, marginalized is called the down group. And the reason we say that is to talk about power. Because these positionings make a difference from dominance, representation, and power, including the power not to pay attention to the inequity, right? and to maintain the dominance. So that is a framework that I think helps people pay attention to where folks might be experiencing less opportunity, even though you personally love those people, right? And I put it in quotes, right?

Starting point is 00:25:13 I love those people. It's really fun. But where are they positioned, right? So one other thing I wanted to say about that is that this is low guilt because for the most part, People don't believe it. We didn't create it. But it's high responsibility to try to level these things out. Yeah. And so just so my listeners really understand this, like, let's just take an example. Let's take a 60-year-old black woman. So ageism, she's got a one down, right? Sexism, she's a female, another one down. She's black. So racism, another one down. Right. And if you're

Starting point is 00:25:52 30-year-old white male, you've got three ups. So it's like, Like, you've got to treat people differently because people are facing different circumstances. And like Vernet said, it's not because somebody's mean or bad. It's just the reality, right? Of the world. Absolutely. I mean, you know, and you just described me, by the way. So that's interesting.

Starting point is 00:26:13 And I also came from a working class background. So a number of one downs. But the cool thing about this awareness is that you start realizing what your one-ups are, right? Because we all have multiple identities. So I was educated in the most, you know, one of the most prestigious schools. I don't have any disabilities. I make a good amount of money. So I have, you know, I was, I'm English first language, U.S. born. I work a lot in the U.S. that works real well. Even around the world, that works real well. So the other really awesome part about this, you get to see your privileges and your lack of privileges.

Starting point is 00:26:55 And by the way, most of us have both. Most of us have both. So even though you're like, oh, I know what it's like to be marginalized, pay attention to the areas that come easily for you because that's where your privilege is and that's where your power is. Yeah. And I'm definitely going to stick a link to this chart in my show notes because I think it is so powerful and so useful for everyone.

Starting point is 00:27:19 So let's talk about like as leaders. and I think that everyone is a leader in their own capacity, whether they lead teams or not, how are we supposed to kind of challenge this idea and support people who are in the one-down groups, you know, as a manager or a co-worker? One thing is, I would say, all of us have an area where we can be allies, right? And I want to make sure, I said also when up is where the power is, it is, because that's where you can be an ally. But I don't want to misrepresent. There's a lot of power in the one-distance.

Starting point is 00:27:51 down group too, right? Or we wouldn't be where we are right now. A lot of brilliant, a lot of resilience, a lot of creativity and innovation, community, all very powerful on both sides. That is why as an ally, you don't approach helping around equity from like a pity position or sympathy position. It's really empathy, yeah, understanding what it's like to be in someone else's and what there's lived experiences are and where the barriers are so you can help remove them. But you're doing it not because you feel sorry for them or you feel guilty. It's because you know that their success, their freedom, their opportunity to show up as full human beings has everything to do with your opportunity to show up as a human being, a caring

Starting point is 00:28:41 human being because these systems that we have are contorting our own hearts. our own understandings. I mean, think about what we don't have in our society because we pushed certain voices and perspectives down. I mean, just look at Netflix now when we're like working so hard to get more stories. It's just more interesting. It's a more interesting life.

Starting point is 00:29:07 It's a more interesting product. It's more accessible to people. And I think that's what we're missing. So allyship is a big deal. find the group that you want to help and then let them leave you because that's the other major issues like folks are like, I'm here to save. No, we don't need you saving. We just need you to move the barriers out of the way so we can show up like in whatever capacity we have. And often that capacity is quite amazing. I'd love to stick on this point on sympathy versus empathy because

Starting point is 00:29:41 I think that as people like myself, I am like a big proponent of. Black Lives Matter and I want to support. But sometimes I feel like I don't know how to like do it without overstepping. And I feel like a lot of other people feel that way. So it's like I support and I post about it. And like, but I don't like go too far because I don't want to overstep my boundaries because I'm not black. And so I just don't want to overstep.

Starting point is 00:30:04 So help us understand that balance and how we can do it in a tactful way. Yeah, it's a bit of a journey. I'm not going to lie. You know, I've made mistakes like with some trans folks and non-binary folks. just like, you know, from that dominant group mindset where you're just like, well, why don't you try this and why don't you do that? You're like, you're like, you're going to tell us how to be trans. Like, please don't, right? So, or what would work, right? So I think once you've been used to taking up a lot of space, you do have to pull yourself back, but, and be led and yield and be

Starting point is 00:30:39 in solidarity. However, there's a lot of work you can do on your own to have a better. understanding of what their approach should be and when you should fall back. And a lot of that work is obviously understanding, since we're talking about Black Lives Matter, understanding history and the experience of Black folks. And by the way, they're not a monolith. So there's a lot of studying about just the complexity and the intersectionality within the group. However, I will also say so much of the work also needs to be almost starting with, who am I as a non-black person? what did I learn about whiteness? How has it shaped me and my perspectives?

Starting point is 00:31:22 Because you know you. So you got a lot of work to do with yourself first. And I think people skip that. A lot of self-reflection, a lot of awareness. Like, what did I get told? And when did I get that message? And from whom did I get that message? And why doesn't it sit right with me now?

Starting point is 00:31:42 And then what more do I need to do? And a lot of times it's you're in your own group talking to folks in your own group about what works and what doesn't work and also the frustrations and also the fear and also like the worry because those are real too. So like when you're talking right now, it's making me think back to your TED talk again when I believe you said something about we need people to stare at black people. And I think it was about basically teaching our children about history. So talk to us about that. Like how can we kind of start to reverse this from when our children are growing up? Oh, my goodness, it's all about the children. People say all the time, I don't know why this isn't better.

Starting point is 00:32:26 I'm like, really? Really? You don't know why it's not better? Because you, the thing is in the atmosphere. I remember my kid, he was like five or something. And my kid was like, yeah, mom, I want to be white. A lot of black kids say that when they're young. And you're like, oh, how do I tell you this?

Starting point is 00:32:43 is not a choice. I used to say that as an Arabic person. I used to wish I would be white, you know. I was, or had a white name, you know. Yeah, that's not because they got it from us. We're like rolling black people through the house on the regular. But on the outside, you don't have to be at school to look at the messaging to tells you who's better, who's prettier, who's more valuable.

Starting point is 00:33:07 So what that means is the only way your children are going to be anti-racist. is if you do proactive work, they need to spot it. They need to see it. When you're in the marginalized group, you're like, oh, you can see the systems. You can see all a fake. You can see it because your life is not what everyone says the norm is. So you're like, there's obviously a system here. But if you are in the norm and things have been going well for you and you're like a fish and water, you're like what water? So what you have to do is you have to tell your children, when you see When you see unhoused people living on the street, your kid has been taught in America, at least, that that's that person's fault. Even if they are sympathetic, you know, there but for the grace of God go I is what a lot of people say.

Starting point is 00:34:02 And what it really should be is, there I am. That is a human being just like me. I'm not better. they didn't do something wrong. It's wrong that people have to live on the street. It's wrong. And so it's like you've got to point it out to your kids. Or like I do say on the talk, like you know how you go for like holidays? We used to go for holidays before COVID anyway with your family. And there's always that grandmother or that uncle or that aunt who taught you how to make cake or fish.

Starting point is 00:34:37 And they're straight up bigots. You know? You're like, I love Grandma, but she's terrible. But we never correct them. And they were like, well, you know, folks are old. They can't change. A, we don't know who can change. But B, if you can't, I mean, you know, I don't want you to wipe grandma.

Starting point is 00:34:55 I don't know what you take them out. You know, what you can't do with compassion. But you can say at the table because the kids are at the table. You can say, oh, Grandma, we don't actually talk about people like that anymore. You know? I mean, or if you can't do that in the car, on the way home. You got to say to your kids, you know how Uncle blah was saying blah? Yeah, we don't believe that in our family. We don't believe in that. That's wrong. I don't want to ever

Starting point is 00:35:22 hear you. And a lot of us who are parents, we've heard comments in the backseat. Cies. People talk about size. Say, oh, that person is so big. Or I don't know, they're so ugly. That's the moment. What? What are y'all saying right there? What's up? Tell me what you mean? That kind of focus is so important. There's all this great material now. There are all these great museums now. Like, you should not let your kid just be exposed to what the norm is, the mainstream. You sometimes have to go digging.

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Starting point is 00:40:50 like, why is that micro, right? I feel like that's really bad. And so, but really what it's trying to speak to is those sort of like slights. They happen pretty quickly. You tell somebody, you have a PhD at whatever, and they say, really? You? You know, or they say, I'm here to talk to the leader and they're looking past the woman or they're looking past the person of color or they're looking past the person who is in a wheelchair because somehow they have a descriptive bias that suggests to them that none of the folks in front of them could possibly be the leader. That's a slight. And the reason why, I mean, what are you going to do?

Starting point is 00:41:28 You're going to report that. It's hard to get your hands around it. It usually is happening before you even expect it. And it's happening constantly, but not by one person. but by lots of folks making the same mistake. So it then starts to have this cumulative effect as if it were an egregious act, right? So small acts over and over again by different people

Starting point is 00:41:54 feel extremely burdensome, frustrating, upsetting. And also just makes you feel like I can't even be seen for who I am. Like, why is that presumption going against me, you know, constantly? Or, you know, my Asian friends who are from the U.S. they're always saying like, oh, people are constantly congratulating them about their English. And they're like, oh, thanks. I grew up in Kansas. Appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:42:19 You know what I say? It's like, oh, my gosh. How long have Asian folks been in the United States? I mean, seriously, that they're always perceived as foreign. Yeah, so that is the thing that I think is really important to recognize that even though something might be small, and this is what happens. When people speak up and say, hey, actually, that's not my name or I appreciate you not making fun of it or renaming me, which is also annoying where people are like, you know, I don't

Starting point is 00:42:47 know, that's kind of hard to say. Why don't we call you JC? No, I didn't say you could call me JC. But what happens is when someone says, I appreciate it if you just call me by my name, you're like, oh, I'm not racist. I'm not sexist. Like you misunderstood that. Aren't you a little sensitive? I was just joking, right? How we come back is so important because none of us. of us are going to be perfect. All of us are going to step in it. So you've got to, when people are kind enough to come out of their frustration, their anger, their sadness, whatever, to give you some feedback, you need to see it as a gift. Thank you. Because I don't want to keep making these mistakes, you know? So you got to really, you got to say to yourself, humility is such an

Starting point is 00:43:36 important part of this walk, because you're going to be wrong a lot. if you are serious about getting it right. It's a contact board. Oh my gosh. Everything you're saying is like so relatable. And I'm sure everyone listening is like, oh my gosh, that's happened to me or oh my gosh, I've done that before. And it's not pointing the fingers at anyone. Like you said, it's like everyone is guilty and everyone has experienced this. So how do we make it better? You also talk about something called microaffirmations. And this is something I've never heard before. And I thought it was super interesting. So tell us about that. It goes a long way. Small stuff can be painful, but small stuff can actually also be incredibly beautiful, which is to say that you can say things like thank you,

Starting point is 00:44:21 right? So hierarchically, sometimes we see, oh, certain people get thanked, other people don't. You can say things like you can acknowledge where people have had great success, especially when you know there is a negative stereotype about them. You can learn how to pronounce people's names, right? get them right, right? Because, you know, when my name is mispronounced, I'm not mad, but boy, when someone gets it right, I feel like, I love you, you know? There are just things where also you can, when you're in a meeting, you can actually keep a list of who you called on because a lot times our biases, like, show up in that. Like, we, you know, I'm a very gregarious person. I'm looking for the gregarious person, so I'm calling on there. Or people who are very expressive, right?

Starting point is 00:45:08 Sometimes if you keep a list, you can check to see, like, who have I been calling on and who haven't I been calling on, right? It's a small thing, but it makes a huge difference. You could actually, if you're talking to people who are remote and maybe they're also of a different language or whatever, you can ask a question soliciting people's opinions and you can just decide to wait 10 to 12 seconds instead of only choosing on the person who's on the ready right away. You know, they're just small things, especially leaders, because people look at what leaders do. They model themselves after leaders. So when leaders are saying, thank you, when leaders are being transparent, when leaders are saying, oh, shoot, did I just step in it? What's the right way to say that? You know, that is what makes a difference because people start adopting that and they get better.

Starting point is 00:46:06 It creates a better environment for everyone. Wow. I think we went through so many great actionable tips in terms of how we can all improve our unconscious bias, how we can counteract these microaggressions. We went through so much different stuff. I want to talk about the benefit of having a diverse and inclusive environment in terms of like revenue, you know, an ROI. What is the financial impact?

Starting point is 00:46:30 Because a lot of people only do make changes if it really impacts the bottom line. So what's the bottom line impact? Yeah, the bottom line pretty much is like you don't want to be a company going into the future unless you have diversity and inclusion because you've got to find a way constantly towards innovation and you've got to find a way to satisfy your customers or your clients, whatever it is. And that group is only getting more and more diverse and more conscious, right? and you have to actually create new things and break up old think, called group think, right? So what the science is suggesting is that if you have diverse perspectives, and that often is correlated with diverse identities and life experiences, you have sort of the ingredients for having much more innovation and a better opportunity to predict what the needs will be.

Starting point is 00:47:28 And so that translates into, for example, if I use our company, like our company's ability to produce more and more innovative content and to do it on a service that's more and more accessible to lots of people all over the world, we have dubbing. We have, you know, all sorts of languages. We've figured out how if you can't see, we can narrate a show for you. You just have to select that particular thing. that means we just have more people who want to join our service, right? And so it outpaces innovation can take you to the next level. And quite frankly, Hala, we've never even seen true competition. We don't even know what it looks like to have people from all sorts of backgrounds

Starting point is 00:48:18 not have to contend with barriers that shouldn't be there. So we haven't even begin to scratch the surface of creativity and innovation. I think about the movie Parasite. I remember watching that and thinking, oh, this is fresh. This is new. This is interesting. That we have so, we haven't even scratched the surface. And so I think there's some bottom line things.

Starting point is 00:48:43 But I also think about bottom line is how well internally your employees are humming, how well they're working together, team efficiency, how much you can keep people in your employees. environment instead of having them leave and having to hire new people and get them up to speed. That's money too, right? But it's also sort of what kind of environment you are creating to foster the kind of innovation that you want and need to be not just profitable, but relevant, you know, relevant. And the one other thing I wanted to say that I didn't answer, which is that whole idea

Starting point is 00:49:21 between the sympathy. I didn't mention that, the sympathy. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about that. Because I do believe that initially a lot of people come in with the sympathy, like, oh, those poor people, the people are not poor. And it's not their inadequacy. It's the fact that we've had this exclusion. And in many cases, it's been a direct impact on marginalized groups.

Starting point is 00:49:44 But it has also made a difference and an unfortunate difference for the people in the norm because they don't have certain skills. They're guilty. They feel guilty about certain things. they get stuck in a one mindset, right? So they have also suffered the result of this exclusion. So it's not about sympathy for other people. It's like how do we build a more humane, dignified way of living with one another through all of our differences?

Starting point is 00:50:08 But then you go to empathy to figure that out, to understand what is happening that I have an experience that if I did, I could build a bridge, I could understand, I could be more open, and I could actually benefit it from it. The last piece for me is compassion, because compassion goes beyond empathy. It says, now that I know, what am I prepared to do? Compassion is the spirit of I am going to act, to alleviate the pain, to alleviate the trauma, and the unfairness and the injustice. And that is what we need more than anything, is that level of compassion. and courage.

Starting point is 00:50:54 So let's take everyone through like an example, if we could. An example of somebody being sympathetic, which is what you shouldn't do, and then reversing that into empathy and compassion. So walk us through that. So for example, like what I was sort of alluding to, which is a xenophobia that we're seeing right now, right? So one thing, for example, is that, you know, sympathetically, you're looking at the news and you're like, oh my gosh, that's so sad.

Starting point is 00:51:21 They killed that old. man, that is terrible, right? That's sympathy. Empathy is actually remembering that you may actually have some Asian friends and you might actually have some Asian colleagues and you might open Google and put the word xenophobia or anti-Asian racism in and you start reading. You start hearing people's stories. You start saying to your colleagues, hey, I hear this is happening. I am with you. I'm sad to see this. I'm here for you, right? Compassion looks like you're at Trader Joe's,

Starting point is 00:52:01 and you see somebody push in front of an older Asian woman. They don't have, she doesn't have to be older, whatever. And you say, excuse me, I think she was first. Or if you see some violence headed towards someone, you go over to them. And this is what I learned actually during 9-11 and all of the horrible violence against anybody who wasn't American, but especially Arabs, especially folks who were Muslim, right? And people don't know the difference. But, you know, it was even happening in Sikh folks because they were wrapping their heads. What they said is you don't even necessarily have to go at the person who's committing that atrocity or that violence.

Starting point is 00:52:46 you can just go to the person who is the victim and say, hey, girl, what's up? I'm so glad to see you. You just interrupt it. Or you might say something like, hey, you know, I need directions. I'm wondering, do you want to walk with me because I'm trying to figure out where we're going. Yeah? So trying to learn how to interrupt the bias because it's not enough to be conscious. You then have to put it into action. And that is what compassion looks like. It's also when people are telling your story, you're not trying to take up the space with your emotions. You're really trying to hold that space for them. And that's another thing that allies are learning. You can't center yourself with all of your emotions. You've got to be there for other people because they're the direct, they're bearing the direct impact. So everybody listening out there, this is not like a once and done type. of episode. So I do a lot of episodes where, you know, you could just listen to it for this hour and you're good and you learned about this topic. But this is something deep that you need to

Starting point is 00:53:56 look inside. This is something that you might want to take a course about unconscious bias and really start to understand it and figure out how you can work through your own unconscious bias. Vernet, is there any reading material that you suggest in terms of next steps for folks who want to learn more? Yeah. So one of the things that I've been doing, oh, first of all, Abraham Kennedy has a great book, including a book for parents who want to raise anti-racist babies. You really go to the bestseller list in nonfiction. You will see like a million books. All of them are good.

Starting point is 00:54:31 We also have a lot of good videos and a lot of good, for example, LinkedIn. I did a course with them on unconscious bias. That's actually, it's quick. It's mini, so you can do that work. You know, my company, my, because actually when I can. came to Netflix. I held on to my company and we do learning videos, but pretty much everywhere they are available. And lots of people, especially after the tragic killing of George Floyd, created a lot of great content. Amazon, Netflix, et cetera, have incredible pieces of information

Starting point is 00:55:08 that you can look at that will really help you with the empathy piece. Actually, I always say there is no excuse. You know, because we got the Google, and they're very accessible pieces of information. Also, look around your own community. There are people doing work and have been doing work forever on these issues. Join groups.

Starting point is 00:55:34 And the neat thing about being virtual these days is it's not as awkward. You can, like, things are virtual and you can just be on and just listening, like a fly on the wall. And you can up your acumen and your awareness very quickly with a lot with not as much risk of being in person. But when we do get to be in person, right, you're looking to expand your social and professional circles. You're trying to get out of that network.

Starting point is 00:55:59 You're asking yourself, who are my friends and who is missing from this list of friends, right? So you might do yourself at a personal inventory. Leaders in particular, whoever I hired in the last five years, who have I promoted in the last five years? Who have I mentored in the last five years? Do you see any patterns? Is it just like, are these people just like you? What could you do to expand it? Where could you go looking for talent that you're not looking at right now? All of those are action moves that will make a difference in this work. And if you guys noticed, I didn't really ask too much questions about hiring because I did that on purpose because I think the conversation is always about hiring, but it goes beyond just hiring.

Starting point is 00:56:43 It's getting invited to dance, like you said. It's getting the promotions, the mentorships, even just going out to lunch and getting the companionship at work. And so it's also about being invited to dance, which is why I didn't talk about hiring at all in this conversation. So the last question I ask all my guests is, what is your secret to profiting in life? I have several, but the one I'm going to go with is alignment. And what I mean by alignment is really.

Starting point is 00:57:13 really looking for the messages in your life to sit down. What has my life been saying to me about what the purpose is that I can serve on behalf of others? And, you know, when you do it, you start to say, oh, there was that, and then there was that. And you start to see that commonality. And you start to say, how do I align all of that I am doing to that purpose? in my personal life, in my work life, in my friend life, in the ways that I volunteer. When you've got all sorts of things going on, you're often at cross purposes. You're like canceling out sometimes the good that you're doing.

Starting point is 00:57:56 And so I have learned to align, which means you also have to say no to stuff. Because you're like, that doesn't actually go. But once you realize, you know, and you try to say where your vision is and you understand your purpose, opportunities come by. And you're like, oh, grab that one because that's part of the flow. And that's the other piece I would say. Alignment helps you get into flow. What it also does is it helps you to say no to things that might be great.

Starting point is 00:58:26 They may be great, but they're not in the flow. When you get in the flow, there's a certain kind of efficiency. There's a certain kind of profitability. And then it just keeps feeding on itself. You feel good inside. You're projecting clarity to folks. You are attracting more opportunities and you're letting go. So much the secret is let go as quickly as you can.

Starting point is 00:58:51 Like stay with reality. We spend so much time saying, why isn't it like this? Can't believe this happens to me. I don't know why she treated me. There's a lot of that going on. It takes up a lot of energy. It is what it is. You don't have control over everybody.

Starting point is 00:59:06 You have control over nobody except yourself. So what's your flow? What's your purpose? How you giving back? Why were you brought here? And then how are you going to keep unfolding and evolving? That is super, super inspirational and powerful stuff. Thank you so much for sharing your secret to profiting in life. And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do? Hala, you are the sweetest. I'm so glad to be here. So I'm on Insta at Renee May. I'm also on Twitter that way, and I'm on LinkedIn. It's all at Vernay Myers, O-V-E-R-N-A-M-A-E-R-S. And you can also go over to my company site over my, it's called Renee Mayers Company, TVMC. Lots of possibilities there, but I hope this has been helpful.

Starting point is 01:00:00 It has been. I think everyone's going to really enjoy this episode, and I can't wait to put out the microcontent. Thank you so much. Thank you, Hala. Much, much, much blessings to you.

Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Vernā Myers on Overcoming Bias and Promoting Equity | Human Behavior

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