Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPLive: Negotiation Masterclass with Chris Voss and Alex Carter | Cut Version

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Starting point is 00:00:53 Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right

Starting point is 00:01:22 questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhanced and productivity, had again influenced the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young and Profiting Podcast. Have you ever had to negotiate your salary, the price of a home, or something as simple

Starting point is 00:01:52 as where to grab dinner with your partner? Whether you realize it or not, we enter into negotiations big and small every single day. Our ability to navigate these negotiations is often the deciding factor in us getting what we want or not getting what we want. Just the thought of entering into a negotiation with someone can be really uncomfortable or even intimidating. We picture ourselves stuck in a win-lose scenario that ends with us getting what we want or not getting what we want.

Starting point is 00:02:23 And even when we do get what we want, it often feels like it comes at the expense of what others want. My guests today, the legendary Chris Voss and Alex Carter, have a very different view of negotiation. And so I'm really excited to be sharing this special episode with you all. This conversation was truly a game changer for me, and I know it will be for you as well. Chris Boss and Alex Carter have spent decades studying human behavior, Chris as an FBI hostage negotiator, and Alex as a negotiation trainer for the United Nations. In this episode, Chris and Alex reframe negotiation as a skill we can use to achieve the best possible

Starting point is 00:03:03 outcome for all parties involved. The best part, the skill can be learned. And in today's episode, Chris and Alex share their best practices for becoming a master negotiator. This is a highlight episode from a 90-minute clubhouse live I did with Alex and Chris a couple months back. So if you love this content here, be sure to check out that live episode as well, the

Starting point is 00:03:25 uncut version. And I've also had Alex and Chris both on my podcast individually and will include all of those links in the show notes. All right, without further ado, enjoy this episode with legendary negotiators, Chris Boss and Alex Carter. Some people say that negotiation is about winning and losing and some people say it's not about winning and losing. It's about compromise. So I'd love to understand from you guys what do you think? Are there winners and losers when it comes to negotiation? Why don't we start off with Chris and then go to Alex. Winning and losing slash bargaining that's a zero sum game. I win you lose. The

Starting point is 00:04:05 gochation really is a positive sum game, which had we both ended up better off, which again, compromised by definition is guaranteed downward spiral. I mean, just let me, I hate the word, would you compromise your principles? You compromise your morals. If it's compromising who you are as a human being is a bad idea Then how is compromising in negotiations? It's a bad idea. I could get into why it creates a downward spiral But the zero-sum game people believe that you know the best negotiations are when both sides are a little unhappy I Ask you are the best marriages when both sides are a little unhappy.

Starting point is 00:04:47 Probably not. But the positive some game because I win doesn't mean you have to lose. And it's about curiosity and discovery and sort of being able to stay in that mindset depending on upon regardless of who's on the other side of the table. So I see it as a positive some game. Not everybody does, but we coach it for a positive some game. Classic example is to why it's neither win nor lose, nor compromise. I met at a event in Scottsdale, Arizona,

Starting point is 00:05:17 just a couple weeks ago. One of those private jet companies has just opened up in Scottsdale, they're holding a reception. But he might as invited, he brings me along as part of his entourage. I meet both the owner and their top salesperson. The owner has told me that he studied the block and has helped advance the company. His top salesperson tells me in front of his boss that he used the coaching, the negotiation that we coach in his employment deal. Now, if that was either when lose or compromise, that conversation between the

Starting point is 00:05:56 three of us, one of those two guys would have been angry, but they were both happy because the boss got a better employee who's working his tail off because he's got a great job and vice versa. They're both happy. So there was no losing that, they both won. And that's why if you take it as a positive some game, everybody's better off. Yeah, Chris, we're having a mind meld here because you said a couple of things that I completely agree with. One is that I absolutely hate the word compromise. For the reasons you mentioned, but also because it induces in people a feeling of loss. I hate compromise and I hate concession.

Starting point is 00:06:40 I'm going to ask you about this, Chris, at the end of my answer, but I don't know what you use as a replacement. I like to use the word contribution. Make someone feel like a donor. Make them feel magnanimous. Here's what I can contribute, and what can you contribute toward a deal? And I also agree with Chris on the winner and loser. To have a true winner and loser, you've got to be raising the same exact course

Starting point is 00:07:05 for one prize. Awesome. So I know that when it comes to negotiation, preparation is key. A lot of people don't realize that you don't just show up to the negotiation. You have to think about it beforehand and have a strategy, do some research,

Starting point is 00:07:22 get in the right mental state. So can you guys suggest how we can get into that headspace and prepare best for the negotiation? Alex, why don't we kick it to you first and then go to Crest? Yeah, absolutely. So the first negotiation you have in every circumstance is the one you're having with yourself before you arrive at the table. And that was a place that I saw a lot of people, even really educated experienced people go wrong.

Starting point is 00:07:52 You know, they didn't know the right questions to ask themselves before they sat down. Because if you've ever arrived in a negotiation and you have a panicky moment or you're having difficulty making decisions or you blank. Chances are you're doing that because you didn't take the right look in the mirror. It's about really figuring out naming the problem that you're going in there to solve. Taking an inventory of really what you need out of that situation, yes, dealing with your feelings

Starting point is 00:08:28 need out of that situation, yes, dealing with your feelings and devising some strategies, some steps you can take. Because here's the thing, sort of similar to running a race or the type of thing we were talking about before, whether you're on the track or you're in a kayak, there's a certain amount that you can control. And then there's a certain amount that's out of your control. And so preparation, you know, doing that internal negotiation, that's part of what you get to control. And it's part of regulating not just your brain,

Starting point is 00:08:56 you know, your emotions, your body, everything you need to then go in and negotiate with somebody else. It's a physical endeavor. Negotiation involves every bit of your body and mind. And so the work you do beforehand, that's what's gonna help sustain you once you sit down at the table. I love that, Chris.

Starting point is 00:09:18 What are you saying? How do we get into the right head space for a negotiation and prepare our best? The easiest, quickest mechanism. I mean, we've got actually, you know, in a black swan group, we've got a very short, nice block of instruction we call caviar, which is about preparation, which about mindset? In the scene, caviar is curiosity.

Starting point is 00:09:38 That's the quickest hack, the simplest mechanism to be genuinely curious, and a number of emotional intelligence reasons why that works. First of which is you can't be in a negative frame of mind when you're genuinely curious. It's impossible to be angry. It's possible to be upset. Being really actually curious about where the other sides coming from, walls you walk from some negative emotions to start out with, and it's not emotions that are bad for decision-making, it's negative emotions.

Starting point is 00:10:12 So how do you get into and keep yourself in a positive state of mind? A lot of the same things that you do to do maintenance on your life, because we're wired to be negative. Our survival, our our limbic system, our wiring in our head, survival mode is largely negative. That's what kept the cavemen alive. Success mode is positive, but it's not our natural wiring. So if you're doing regular mental hygiene to keep yourself in a positive frame of mind, which everyone should do. Works very similar for you in negotiations. That's the shortest, simplest step. Also, by definition, you can have a great goal from the beginning, but it's literally impossible

Starting point is 00:10:59 to know the best outcome because you don't have all the information. Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. That's a definition of flexibility. How do you get that in an negotiation? The first step is to be in a positive frame of mind because if you really go focused, what that means is you got on blinders, you got tunnel vision and you're likely to pass by a better deal, the more goal oriented you are. So good. Thank you so much, Chris.

Starting point is 00:11:29 Let's talk about some tactical ways to get the upper hand in a negotiation. So both of you guys say that getting information is really important. So Alex says, a negotiation is a conversation in which you are skeering the relationship. Chris says, it's an act of discovery where you are trying to learn as much as possible. But both of you, I think both agree that it's all about collecting information and knowing both perspectives and information is basically power and a negotiation.

Starting point is 00:11:59 So what are some practical tips when it comes to discovery? So either steering the conversation or collecting information, what are your top tips? Let comes to discovery? So either steering the conversation or collecting information, what are your top tips? Let's go to Alex and then Chris. Great question, Holla. So I think my number one tip could be summed up as don't rush. I think so many people fear negotiation or they have anxiety around it

Starting point is 00:12:26 that they're basically looking to get in and get out as quickly as possible. And that means for many people is going in and kind of vomiting up what they need, their positions, et cetera, which maybe they think gives them the upper hand but just reveals them to be not only anxious, but also totally incurious. And I love what Chris says about curiosity. Curiosity is going to make or

Starting point is 00:12:54 break your deal. And so if you go in and you're focused on yourself and getting out of there, as quickly as possible, I would even say, if you're focused, I'm going to quibble with your question a little bit, Hollett, if you're focused on getting in and getting the upper hand and the other person sees that you're trying to get the upper hand, that action is going to be met with an equal and opposite reaction. So the way I approach it is it's a process, right? And the reason I talk about negotiation is just one of any number of conversations where you're steering a relationship is because, you know, here's the thing. Most people think about the performance review.

Starting point is 00:13:37 They think of the immediate lead up to when they negotiate a deal. A lot of people call me for private coaching right around that particular juncture, but it's not just the money conversations or the resource conversations. It's every conversation. And if you've been steering really, really well, which means you're doing a lot of listening, you are asking fantastic questions. You are summarizing after the other person speaks, so you're showing to them that you are listening. In other words, you're spending a lot of time up front in that process of being curious and getting information. And that

Starting point is 00:14:17 information is what you need to steer. It really comes down to the basics. Every time I see a negotiation course and I see people teaching like decision trees for it, you know, how to, how to, you know, make super complicated decisions on the back end, I just want to say, you're never going to get there. If you don't master the fundamentals of great listening, great questions, summarizing, and silence. Those tools are going to get you so, so far, and then you'll have time for all the decision trees you want in the world. But the advanced negotiators, you want to use that word, quote, unquote, advanced, are just the people who bring an advanced level of awareness

Starting point is 00:15:07 to the stuff that seems basic? Love that. So Chris, I'd love to hear from you. What are your top tips to get information and a negotiation? Yeah, very much along the lines where Alex was just talking about. I mean, the other side is dying to talk. Just dying. Let him go first, hear him out. You know, as the house is going to go shitter,

Starting point is 00:15:30 we stare the phrase, what's going to take the get the bad guys out? He's going to tell you, but not directly, which meant you got to get him talking. You got to interact lightly with them to let him know that you're interacting. I mean, no matter who is on the other side of the table, they are dying to tell you what they want and what led them to what they want. And that's solid data. And they're going to love that you listen. So as Alex was talking about listening, I mean attentively listening, actually listening versus waiting for your turn to talk. That builds rapport that helps them feel bonded to you, that helps build trust in the interaction.

Starting point is 00:16:17 It increases the chances that they're going to tell you the stuff they're hiding because they're horrified to tell you because they feel like you would gain leverage power. Any of those binary negotiation terms that people are so afraid of, but you can't make a better deal unless you hear them out. So, yet getting them talking in a way that they don't feel judged, counter-attacked, or any of the other things that diminish rapport. Getting them talking is a real key to coming up with a great deal. And now a quick break from our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree

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Starting point is 00:19:57 That's trinom-n-o-m.com-shap for 50% off tr trinom.com slash app. So I'm going to dig into some individual strategies that both of you guys use to get more information and to get some more actionable tips because everybody that listens to younger profiting podcasts, we love actionable advice. And so Alex, you have the words, the phrase, tell me, and you use this to get more information from my understanding. So I'd love to understand why are the words tell me so powerful and how can we use that?

Starting point is 00:20:32 Yeah, tell me is what I call the world's most open question because it allows the other person to tell you whatever they want about any topic they choose. You know, so often in life we think we're asking an open question and we really aren't. You know, I'm amazed I run an exercise at a number of, you know, different top flight organizations and I ask people to get some information about something

Starting point is 00:21:02 totally mundane. You know, I've just taken a family vacation. You'd like to get some info on that. It's remarkable to people, questions people ask me. They ask me, did you have fun? The answer to that is yes, you know, or no, or maybe, you know, or they'll ask me, where did you go? And that's a two-word answer, I'd say, Cape Cod. But when you say Alex, tell me all about your trip. That's

Starting point is 00:21:26 an open license for me. When you sit down with someone, you say, tell me about your vacation or tell me your perspective or, you know, tell me your view, right? Sometimes even just tell me, people open up. And as Chris was saying before, that's what you want. That person is dying to tell you their story. Each negotiation is about a story. Often it's about multiple stories, which is the reason people got in the room in the first place. Each one of them has a different story. And when you ask someone to tell you whether it is your 10-year-old daughter in the home like mine, whether it's somebody you're closing a deal, whether you are on trying to negotiate to save somebody's life

Starting point is 00:22:06 That to me is the sincere opener that allows that person to really open up and Start to show you who they are and what they value and that's going to be the single biggest difference maker in negotiation as he Chris Chris clapping over there, I think he agrees. So Chris, I know that you have a very well-known strategy called verbal mirroring, and basically you use this to summarize like Alex was mentioning before with a person who was saying and get more information. So can you teach us about mirroring, and if there's another tip that maybe I didn't mention that you want to share, that'd be great as well.

Starting point is 00:22:46 So if you want to be a black swan, if you want to learn a black swan method, one of the really cool techniques that we brought from hostage negotiation was something we call mirroring. Now, black swans mirror is, it's not that body language thing, you know, where if you put your right hand to your chin, I put my right hand to my chin, that's not that body language thing, you know, where if you put your right hand to your chin, I put my right hand to my chin. That's not the Black Swan Mirror. Black Swan Mirror is repeating the last one to three-ish words of what somebody's just said. And when you get that skill down, then yeah, you can move it around and pick out a specific one to three words

Starting point is 00:23:25 that you want to have them expand on. And it's really easy. It's so mechanistic if you will. Some people don't like it because it seems too simple. It's a great skill for when you caught off guard. Like if somebody just, what they've just said, just kind of blows your mind. And a first time I really got a big difference in a mirror was negotiate a bank robber with

Starting point is 00:23:50 hostages in Brooklyn. Guys saw on the other side of the table principal bank robber. I didn't realize that at the time was exhibiting all the characteristics of like a great CEO negotiator. He was so controlled that when he first got on a phone with the PDs negotiator that was first up, I was second up. He literally told the PD negotiator that he was calmer than the police department negotiator was. So how did marrying help me with this guy? We get his name, which he's not given to us because he realizes it's hard to establish rapport with someone who doesn't give their name. We figure out who he is, we find out his van is outside, we get a voice ID on him from a neighbor. They put me on a phone and they want

Starting point is 00:24:39 me to brace this guy that we know who he is as quickly as I can. And I'm going to do a kind of gently, so I start, I say, hey, look, you know, we got, we got a van out here. We've, we've found the owners of every one of them and set one van. And he said, well, we only have one van. I go, we only have one van. He goes, no, we have more than one vehicle. And I married again, I said, you got more than one vehicle. And he said, again, I said, you got more than one vehicle. And he said, you chase my driver away. I mirrored again. I chase your driver away.

Starting point is 00:25:10 Now, understand, I'm confused by everything he's saying to me at the moment. And each time I mirrored him, he loses a little more control. And then finally, when he says, we chase your driver away, his getaway driver had gotten away. We had no idea there was a third accomplice there. And that spontaneous admission led to the conviction of the driver. What's the point? This mirror tool that you can use when you're completely off guard is likely to keep the other side talking and if a controlled bank robber, control freak negotiator is going to make spontaneous

Starting point is 00:25:53 admissions, it'll work in all negotiations. And then the cool thing that I love about Mirrors is maybe because it's so simple, we find, you know, the people that we coach, the high IQ and high EQ people love mirrors, love them. And maybe it's because they're so simple as to why they love those. Now I'm neither high IQ nor high EQ. So to me, it's one more tool, but the really people that really like and size simple ways to steer conversations love mirrors. And for those of you guys who are still confused in terms of like how to use a mirror, let's give an example.

Starting point is 00:26:36 Why don't Alex and Chris, why don't you guys give an example of mirroring together? Give an example together? Yeah, like Alex may maybe say something and then Chris can mirror that so that everybody gets an example of how it works. All right ladies and gentlemen I just mirrored Hala. She went on to give me a much fuller explanation of what she was looking for. That's what a mirror looks like. That was perfect and I totally fell for it so that was great. Okay so let's she was looking for. That's what a mirror looks like. That was perfect and I totally fell for it. So that was great.

Starting point is 00:27:09 Okay, so let's talk about questions because aside from all these other like more covert tactics to get information, you can actually just ask a question to get information. So Alex, tell us the importance of asking questions and how we can formulate the right questions to better prepare for negotiations and have better outcomes.

Starting point is 00:27:28 So you know questions, there's research to show that 7% of people, a whopping 7% of people know the right questions to ask at the table to get the most out of that deal. And I'm not just talking about generating trust, although asking those questions will definitely gain trust. But I'm talking about doing the best monetarily at the table. And the very best questions to ask are what's called diagnostic questions.

Starting point is 00:28:01 What does that mean? It's a fancy negotiation term, meaning open questions. What does that mean? It's a fancy negotiation term meaning open questions. So questions that start with what how or tell me. By the way, tell me is actually not a question. It's a command, but it reads like a question. And so it works exceptionally well. I will say that Chris and I align on one thing, and I was so pleased to read this, Chris, and for all of you in the house tonight who haven't picked up Chris's book, Never Split the Difference, I really enjoyed it.

Starting point is 00:28:33 I read it once I finished writing mine, and where we align is that we both really don't like the word why, using why to start a question. Why was something that I instinctually avoided as a mediator for many years without really putting words to why I was avoiding the why? And the reason is that when you ask why you get a because, why is a backward looking question that reads like blame? And that is what you absolutely do not want to do in negotiation. Instead, I like to move from why to what?

Starting point is 00:29:16 So instead of why did you do that, what went into that? Or even, you know, tell me about the decision. That is a question that moves from the past to the future. It moves from blame to diagnosis. It really helps you stay curious and stay in information gathering mode so that you're gonna get as much as possible. So, when it out, start your questions with what,

Starting point is 00:29:42 how or tell me, and that's when you're gonna be the most successful at negotiation Not to say that you can't ever ask a closed question Sometimes you know later on you hear people kind of circling around what sounds like a deal and There can be incredible power in saying something like I think I just heard that we have a deal here Right am I wrong? And then having their person say, nope, Alex, you're right. And that's when you can check it off and move on. But at the beginning of the negotiation, you are in search mode. You want to start as open as possible. And with that, we're going to get into our next question. So the next question I want to talk about is F words.

Starting point is 00:30:25 So both of you guys talk about F words in negotiation. And essentially, you say there are some important words that we need to understand. So Chris's F word is fair. And Alex's F word is feelings. So let's start with Chris first. And then we'll move on to Alex. Chris, tell us about the word fair

Starting point is 00:30:44 and why you think that is so crucial when it comes to negotiations. Yeah, you know, it's kind of nuts. It's amazing. There's almost never negotiation where the F-bomb fair doesn't come up because when people feel backed into a corner, it can be a very defensive, innocent, if you will, thing to say. Because they're not sure they're sure they're on the losing end and they'll say, just, I just want what's fair, I just want to be treated fairly.

Starting point is 00:31:11 And it'll cause the other side to rethink themselves, am I being unfair? I mean, it's an accusation in disguise. And a lot of people say it innocently, because they don't know where to go. They're actually expressing a tremendous amount of vulnerability in that moment because if they could articulate specifically why they were being treated unfairly, if there were any external criteria, they'd point to them. And the first time I ever heard this of a person a negotiation instructor, there's one of the best human beings that I've ever met.

Starting point is 00:31:43 They're in the middle of Selen their house and the housing market had dropped substantially. And this person said, well, we just want a fair offer. And the buyer raised their offer. Now, it's not the buyer's fault the market dropped. That was a market price for the house. And the seller felt victimized by the circumstances and it tosses out. I remember thinking, wow, you know, she didn't mean to be manipulative, but it was an emotional cheap shot for lack of a better term thrown out there very innocently. Now, flip side, you know, I just want what's fair. I've given you a fair offer. That's so effective for the sharks and the cut-roats that they know if they're having trouble getting you to accept the offer.

Starting point is 00:32:37 If they just say, we've given you a fair offer, it's going to cause you to question whether or not you're being fair or unfair. And so it comes up in a lot of other venues because it's such an effectively emotional manipulation tool. So if the word comes up, what does this mean for you as a takeaway? First of all, how does a black swan group teach people to do it? I'll start out by saying, if at any point in time you feel treated unfairly, let me know and we'll stop and we'll fix it. That's how the only way we deploy the word when we're coaching you. What do we want you to know if you hear it on the other side?

Starting point is 00:33:19 Understand if somebody says they think they're being treated unfairly, whether they're a shark or whether just a decent person, at that point in time, they feel pretty defenseless. Now, you've got some great information that you need to be really careful with because when they feel defenseless is not the time to go in for the kill. When they feel defenseless is not the time to go in for the kill. When they feel defenseless is a particular time to show even more empathy and more understanding so that they feel comfortable

Starting point is 00:33:55 with you being behind their defenses because they know that you're not going to hurt them. But in all cases, if somebody drops the F bomb on you, they feel defenseless. And just be careful with that information. Hold tight, everyone. Let's take a quick break and hear from our sponsors. Hear that sound, young and profitors. You should know that sound by now. But in case you don't, that's the sound of another sale on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that's revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you sell edgy t-shirts or offer an educational course like me, Shopify simplifies

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Starting point is 00:40:34 right now as the app listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com-profiting. That's masterclass.com-profiting for 15% off an annual membership masterclass.com slash profiting. So interesting. So Alex, I don't know if you have any thing you want to bounce off in terms of the fair F bomb word or if you just want to go into your F word, which is feeling, it's up to you. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I love it. And in fact, when I saw that we both had an F word section in our books, I thought, well, I was born in Brooklyn. I'm not sure what Chris's excuse is, but obviously we both love a good F bomb. You know, it's fascinating, Chris, because I've heard so many people in negotiation use your F bomb,

Starting point is 00:41:23 fair. And my response every time is, you know, tell me what fair looks like to you. I've almost never gotten a concrete response to that question, right? So my experience very much accords with yours. I say that and the person responds with a dodge. They say, well, Alex, I just want what's reasonable. And that is basically like a neon sign saying, I'm actually not sure what it is that I think is fair

Starting point is 00:41:51 or what I'm looking for in this situation. And what I have to do there, Chris, you talked about this being really difficult to handle. You've got to handle it with care is absolutely right. And if I have a group of people in front of me and one of them has just said, I only want what's fair and then can't explain himself. As a mediator, I'm very, very conscious

Starting point is 00:42:16 of preserving that person's dignity. If I pull his pants down in the front of the room by pointing out that he doesn't know what he wants and he can't define what fair is, that negotiation is over. I failed at my job. And so what do I have to do? I put people in a caucus room. And the reason I do it is because your F-BOM intersects with my F-BOM, which is feelings.

Starting point is 00:42:42 People think all the time that feelings get in the way of decisions. And the news I have for you is that no feelings are how we make decisions. If you write your feelings down ahead of the negotiation, it does two powerful things. One, it takes some of the sting out of them. There's something about seeing your feelings on paper. And Chris, you mentioned before that people often approach things fearing the worst. It's like our limbic system goes into overdrive and we're catastrophizing before we even get in the room. But there's something about seeing that catastrophizing

Starting point is 00:43:20 written out on paper that makes you look and say, is that likely it is not. The other thing it does is that it really helps you then gain control so that once you get in the room, you're not captive to those feelings anymore. You've taken a look in the mirror. You've confronted them. And so that's a great way to kind of clear the decks

Starting point is 00:43:40 before you get in so that you can breathe and be in the moment and not lose your cruel because of the emotions that you haven't confronted. So good Alex. So let's stick on emotions for a second. So Chris, you always talk about labeling emotions and how that can kind of defuse what's going on. So why don't we use the big two that Alex just brought up fear and guilt? How would you use labeling to mitigate those emotions and negotiation? Well, concern is a great disguised word for fear. So, you know, you can say, what are your

Starting point is 00:44:20 concerns? We could say it sounds like you have some concerns. Anytime you're going after a negative emotion and there's a fair amount of neuroscience that backs us up, just simply labeling it, calling it out, not denying it. It's the elephant in the room. You don't get rid of the elephant in the room by denying that it's there and that's the denying negative emotions. The most efficient way is neither is inventing or ignoring it, not commenting on it at all. But the labeling negatives shows that from the data that I've seen diminishes at every time. Now diminishes to varying degrees.

Starting point is 00:45:03 A lot has to do with how you deliver it. So if I sensed guilt, you know, I wouldn't say, it sounds like you feel guilty because that's an accusation with my ton of voice. But if I really wanted that to land and my gut instinct was telling me that it was there, I'd probably say some of the effective sounds like you feel guilty. Now that simple change in inflection lets that land softly. You know, they don't feel accused. There was genuine curiosity. People aren't threatened by genuine curiosity. It's a great way to get something like that to land and you can self-label too. Everybody listening to us right now. I'll give you an example. I'm coaching some real estate agents earlier

Starting point is 00:45:56 today and one really successful agent has never gotten full fee but wants to ask for it. She's in an environment where everybody is discounting discounting discounting Ridiculous discounting And she said I'm just trying to work up my courage to ask for full fee. I know I should do it I'm working on my courage and I said right now repeat after me and I said Say this I'm scared to ask for full fee. She said I'm scared to ask for full fee Then I said now say it three more times. And she said it three more times. And then I said, how do you feel now? And she said, yeah,

Starting point is 00:46:34 I'm not scared anymore. Labeling the negatives, the menaces, as long as you don't do it in an accusatory fashion. I love that. Thank you so much, Chris. Chris, you called your book Never Split the Difference. So tell us your opinion of trade-offs, concessions. How do you feel about that? I'm going to be really selfish for a second, because I want to help everybody here. Now, how do I do that? The Black Swan Group will meet you where we are. Now how do we meet you

Starting point is 00:47:07 where you are? Where you are on your negotiation journey? Come to our website black swaneltd.com. We got free stuff, we got expensive stuff, we got an actionable blog that's free, we will meet you where you are, wherever you are on your journey, We had a way to help you get better and to make your life better. Now, to answer your question, concessions, a concession is a loss. It triggers a downward spiral. The anti-contamin Nobel Prize Behavioral Economics 2002, a loss thinks twice as much as an equivalent gain. What does that mean in your negotiations?

Starting point is 00:47:43 You get the other side to concede, let's say $5. Well, they didn't feel like they conceded $5. If a loss thinks twice as much as an equivalent gain, they felt like they got hit for $10. What's going to make them feel even with you? They have to hit you for 10 or they're not going to feel okay. What happens when they hit you for 10? You're human. You're not going to feel okay. What happens when they hate you for 10? You're human. You're not going to feel okay unless you get them back for 20. That's why concession is a downward spiral. It stings people. It's in their view never quote fair.

Starting point is 00:48:18 And that's just a guarantee of a downward spiral. And you just don't want to get into it. Even if you don't like them, you don't want to get into it. Even if you don't like them, you don't want to get into it because it's bad for you long term. Now trade-offs, you know, what's your definition of a trade-off? Does it make the deal better for me and do they not feel like they get stung? If it makes the deal better, then I want to find out how it makes it better for both of us. What some people might call trade-offs, I don't see it that way at all. I see, if I give you something that's worth five to me, but it's worth 25 to you, it's

Starting point is 00:48:58 probably a non-monetary term. So if we explore what really makes a great deal between the two of us, we really get out of this concession trade off giveaway dynamic and we're into a collaborative relationship and then some of those terms that come up in traditional negotiation, which is when lose zero some game. They just fall away when you're looking to make it a positive some gains. That's some awesome advice, Chris. So I'm going to ask you guys one last question because I think it's important and then we're going to kick it over to Q&A. So I want to know, how do we turn a no into a yes, Alex? Let's go to you and then Chris, how do you turn a no into a yes? Don't argue.

Starting point is 00:49:39 Don't be focused on the yes. Your first focus should be to take the gift of the no and use that to thoroughly understand the holdups to the deal. To understand the person, be curious, ask them about their concerns, and really listen. Not just fake listen, really listen, repeat back their concerns, honor those concerns, and if you treat them with generosity and with curiosity, that's when eventually you are going to get to the yes. So good, Chris, how do you turn a no into a yes? Well, I got a crazy answer for you.

Starting point is 00:50:20 I mean, when you're being coached by the Black swans, we don't bother with yes at all. We used to say yes is nothing without how and now we say yes is nothing Period how is everything so if you get off of yes Because the other problem with yes is it's used to trap so many people There's a bit of a yes battered response in every human being they probably been trapped by yes by yes before. So just get out of here entirely. You're going to find your conversations get real interesting. Oh my goodness. I love to this conversation so so much. Alex and Chris deliver such great practical advice on how to improve your negotiation skills and really your communication skills more generally as well. I can't wait to get them back on the podcast so we can keep learning from these masters together.

Starting point is 00:51:09 Negotiation doesn't have to feel so intimidating. With mentors like Chris and Alex, we can all develop the skill and start getting more yeses in our lives. And if you haven't already, be sure to check out the individual episodes I did with both Chris and Alex. I've actually done two one-on-one interviews with Chris, and so we have tons of negotiation content for you all to sift through if you want to keep learning about this topic. We'll include links to all of those episodes in the show notes, and we'll also include a link to the full, unedited, uncut, 90-minute clubhouse recording that we used to put this episode together

Starting point is 00:51:44 for you all. Thanks again for listening to Young & Profiting podcast. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode. Big thanks to my app team as always and for all of our loyal young and profitors who tune in each and every episode. This is Hala, signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

Starting point is 00:52:23 Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer.

Starting point is 00:52:45 We also feature segments like Know Yourself better, where we discuss questions like, are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever? And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happy. Listen and follow the podcast,

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