Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPLive: The Science of Habit Building with BJ Fogg on Clubhouse | Uncut Version

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Join Hala Taha for a Live Young and Profiting Podcast Episode with Stanford University Behavior Scientist BJ Fogg. They will discuss innovative habit forming changes to help influence new behavior for good! BJ is an expert in behavior science and is the bestselling author of Tiny Habits: The Small Changes That Change Everything.   ***Meet the Moderators***   BJ Fogg - An American social scientist, author, and research associate at Stanford University.  BJ Is the founder and director of the Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab, later renamed as Behavior Design Lab. Founded the Behavior Design Lab at Stanford University where he directs research and innovation. In addition, he teaches industry innovators how to use his models and methods in Behavior Design. The purpose of his research and teaching is to help millions of people improve their lives. Developed the Fogg Behavior Model - a model that shows that three elements must converge at the same moment for a behavior to occur: Motivation, Ability, and a Prompt. When a behavior does not occur, at least one of those three elements is missing. BJ is the Author of Tiny Habits: The Small Changes That Change Everything    Social Media:   Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on ClubHouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash profiting. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast,

we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession, or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity,

had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young & Profiting Podcast. Welcome to a live interview of Young & Profiting Podcast. I'm your host, Halataha and today we are talking about the science of habit building. I've got BJ Fog in the building. He's an American social scientist, a research associate at Stanford University, and the author of the breakout book called Tiny Habits. BJ is an expert on human behavior and has come up with a really exciting new model of successful habit formation that takes what we know about habits and throws it

all out the window. Forming good or bad habits or breaking bad habits has been a challenge for every single person at one point or another. That's why I really love this conversation. I love talking about habits because it's so relevant for everyone who wants to live a young and profiting life. Today we're going to be covering tiny habits, how they work, why they work,

the FOG behavior model, which a lot of my past guests have mentioned over the years. And BJ's seven steps to creating positive new behaviors. And this is how it's gonna work. We're gonna do a 60 minute interview with BJ and I. I might have some of my podcaster friends intervene if they have something relevant to talk about. And then the last 30 minutes, we will take open Q&A's.

So let's get started. VJ. You are one of the world's top experts. You wrote the breakout book, Tiny Habits. Considering your background in social sciences and behavior, I'd love to know why you initially got interested in the study of human habits. Because I myself felt like I was slipping. I was gaining weight.

I wasn't sleeping well. I wasn't feeling as productive as I wanted to be it. And it was like, man, Vijay, you're a behavior guy. And your life seems to be going a direction that you don't like. And I was probably, let's see, I'm 57 now. So I was in my 40s and I felt like if you don't turn the corner now, you won't turn the corner, which is not true. You can turn the corner, you can create habits at any age. So I felt a little

bit of an urgency like this is going the wrong direction. And I really need to figure out how to optimize my life. And so outside of Stanford, outside of my Stanford research, I just started, I call it goofing around with my own habits, but it's basically experimenting and trying out different ways to change my behavior. So really was out of a personal need and a concern that it's like now or never, which by the way everybody, again, that's not true, you can form habits at any age, but that's how I felt. I love that. And so I know that you take a very unique approach when it comes to habit building

and you kind of turn the whole traditional models on its head. So most approaches to behavior believe that people, if they have enough information about why they should make a change, they'll make it and it's easy, it's immediate, but you say that behavior change is really not that simple. So why don't these traditional approaches work and what you suggest is the alternative? There's a variety of traditional views. When you were talking about right there,

I called the information action fallacy and It doesn't work and it goes like this if we just give people information about exercise or nutrition or stress That will change their attitude around the importance of exercise or stress or whatever Which will then change their behavior. So it's a very logical model, you know which will then change their behavior. So it's a very logical model. You know, information will convince people about the importance and then they'll be motivated and change their behavior.

And as everyone listening knows, it's not that rational and informational alone does it very poor job of changing our behavior. Now information might be a component. Now information itself is hard to define clearly, but what doesn't seem to work well are these steps. Information then leads to a change in your attitude or your opinion. That doesn't work very reliably. It works in some situations, but not extremely well, because you tend to believe what you want to believe.

I mean, you could take a lot of social science and summarize it in that statement. People believe what they want to believe. I mean, look what happened with the elections in the US and all of that. People were seeing the same information, but interpreting it differently according to how they wanted to see it. So that's one link that doesn't work very well. And then the next link is if we can get attitudes to change, does that then lead to behavior change?

And that sometimes works, but it's not that reliable. So when you have those two links in the system that are weak, both of them are weak, then that sequence of information cascading down to lasting behavior change is really precarious. And I gave it a name. So that's why I gave it a name. So we were able to talk about it.

And I called it the information action fallacy. Then there's other traditions that have to do with how habits work. And repetition is the key. And you only can do one habit at a time when you have to track your behavior and things that are just missed and don't really matter. And we inherited those at least in the culture I grew up in thinking that's how you do habits. And some of those came if you go back to William James, he kind of laid the foundation for a lot of good things, but some of the bad things. And then some of them just been

to miss interpretations of academic studies. So I'll stop there. I'm BJ, and I'll stop answering the question at that point. We all know you're BJ, you were the main star of this show. So then I guess that's really hurts our motivation, right? When we try to do these new habits, we're trying to follow the rules, but the traditional approaches, just like you said, are faulty. So talk

to us about motivation and how these types of traditional models don't support as building habits because we lose motivation and we feel like shame that we can't follow through. Yeah, I mean, that's one of various problems. And I'll just give a really specific example. A lot of us were led to believe that you do one habit at a time and you track it daily. And that's essential. Only change one habit at a time. And you got to track it daily. And I used to have wall charts up and you know check boxes and things like that. I have come to believe that for most people that is a bad idea and here's why my coaching of over 40,000 is probably more like 60,000 people at the coach personally. I stopped counting at 40,000 so this is 10

years of coaching people in tiny hobbits week after week after week, two to 300 people a week, sometimes 600, but it was a new year. And just seeing the patterns and seeing the data, that the key to creating habits is the emotions that people feel when they do the behavior and the feeling of success reinforces that behavior. In other words, it makes it more automatic. And when you put a wall chart up and you're tracking, like, oh, I'm gonna run for an hour a day,

and you see that chart, you see all the gaps so that have X's or frowny faces, rather than checks or smiles, you're not feeling very successful seeing all those gaps. And that can be very discouraging. It's like, oh, I just don't have the willpower. I don't have the discipline and so on. So I never advocate that people put up a chart and track their habits daily. Now, for some people, unusual people,

it will help them feel successful. But for many people, when you see all those gaps, it's like, oh my gosh, it's not working. Once again, I'm failing and you start blaming yourself and so on. So even techniques like tracking your behavior, as much as people advocate for that, and say, oh, you track it daily, I push back against that.

And the techniques like making a public commitment or tracking all those other techniques fall under two things matter. One, when creating habits, and I call this maximum number one, help yourself do what you already want to do. That's really important. So don't pick habits you don't want to do. And if you don't want to track, here have it, don't do that. Help yourself do what you already want to do. And if you don't want to track, you have it, don't do that. Help yourself do what you already want to do. And Max and Merv2 is help yourself feel successful.

So if something like making a public commitment helps you feel successful, do it. If it makes you concerned or worries you or makes you feel unsuccessful, don't. If tracking helps you feel successful, do it. If tracking just highlights and what shall I say, archives, the fact that you're failing, don't do it. And the tiny habits method, one of the things that I said early on, so this, I started teaching it and sharing it in 2011,

so 10 years ago. And I would say practice and revise. Practice meaning you won't be perfect. And revise is iterate. You know you're not to be perfect and you're going to have to revise. So the method is one that acknowledges the tiny habits method acknowledges. It was going to be twist in turns. You won't be perfect. But you just keep going. You keep practicing and revising and you'll figure that out. So all those traditional things that you've heard, look at those through the lenses of the Maximums, is it helping you do what you already want to do? And is it helping you feel successful

if it's doing both? Great. That technique is good for you. But if it's missing on either a counter-both, then it's not a good match for you. Yeah, I love the fact that your method is not like pass or fail. It's like you can just keep trying and trying and trying until you get it right. Yeah, I like talking about it.

For many of these domains of habits that people are looking at, whether it's stress reduction or sleep or changing how you eat, think of yourself as a little baby learning to walk. Yeah, you're not really a baby and you know how to walk, but within this domain of nutrition or stress or sleeping, you may be a newbie like a baby. And it's a process of learning how to do that. And as you're going along, you think of yourself as a toddler and you're going to stumble,

you're going to fall. But that's okay and that's part of the process. I think it helps you give yourself compassion, but it also describes how the process works. If you get up and keep going, you'll get better and you'll get better, and pretty soon you'll be able to do it without even thinking about it, which is what it is. You'll be able to eat on your game plan automatically without thinking about it. You'll turn something that seemed very hard and challenging and create all these stumbles for you into something that seems effortless like walking is today. Awesome. We also have a guest that joined on stage, John Asteraph,

also came on my show before. John, welcome to this stage. Thank you for joining. Hey, they're Haulon. Hey, BJ, nice to connect with you again. Hey, so BJ, I love to start off with context. I love to give my listeners a real good foundation so that they can really understand the rest of the conversation. So let's start off with something super basic. Let's talk about the qualities of a tiny habit and why we should work with tiny habits. All right, I'll give a quick summary. One way to think about it is A, B, C. That wasn't deliberate. I'm kind of suspicious of acronyms and things like that, but it turns out the ABC. The B is the behavior part. So the behavior is something that you want to turn into a habit. So a habit is a type of behavior.

It's a behavior you do quite automatically. You do without thinking or contemplating or deliberating. And so in tiny habits, you take whatever habit you want, whatever that behavior is, and you make it super, super small. So it doesn't require much motivation. If something's hard to do, it requires motivation. If something is super tiny, like tidying up one item in your living room, it doesn't require tons of motivation.

So the hack in the tiny habits method is to make the behavior so small that you don't have to rely on motivation. So that's the B part. Backing up to A, that stands for anchor. In tiny habits, and I've given a TED talk on this, there was this breakthrough moment when I was goofing around with my own behavior, and I understood that I needed to make it tiny, because I looked at my own behavior, and said, oh, it's easy to do, then motivation could be higher low, and I don't have to keep sustaining motivation.

Let's make it easy. But then it's like, what's going to prompt it? What's going to remind me to do it? And I'll be quick on this, but there was a moment I'm getting out of the shower going through my This and then this and then this the sequence of things you do and I was like, oh, there it is You figure out what the habit naturally comes after you figure out what the habit naturally comes after, after it's the key. And so I call that anchoring. So you take the habit and you attach it, you anchor it to something that you already do in your life that's stable and reliable. Other people have taken that concept and they call it piggybacking or habit stacking. It's the same thing. I call it anchoring and other people have iterated on that. But, so you don't use alarms or post-it notes or just yourself to remember, you deliberately

find something you already do reliably like brushing your teeth is the anchor that reminds you to floss. And so you find where it fits naturally. That's A and B, and the C is for celebration, which is a way that you cause yourself to feel a positive emotion as you do the behavior immediately after. And it's the emotion that reinforces that behavior. That makes it more likely to happen. That makes it automatic. So you're not leaving the emotion to chance. You are deliberately causing that in yourself through a technique called celebration. There's over 100 ways to do this. And you're hacking your emotions in order to cause the habit to wire in very quickly. So you got anchor, behavior and celebration and all three of them are hacks. You're hacking what reminds you of finding a routine. You're hacking the behavior by making

it super tiny. So you don't have to worry about motivation. And you're hacking your emotion so you can wire the habit in quickly. Cool. So I want to dive deeper on this ABC pneumonic because I think it's really important. I know that you have something called the Maui habits. And I think it will help people really understand what this is all about and start their mornings, right? So can you talk to us about that? Yeah. Yeah. The Maui habit in the whole book, tiny habits. There's only one habit that I recommend for everybody. And it's the Maui habit, and it goes like this, after my feet touch the floor in the morning,

I will say it's going to be a great day. So you say those seven words, and you anchor it to your feet touching the floor in the morning. And that's the tiny habit recipe. So the sequence of after I, I will, I've called a recipe. So after I brush, I will floss one tooth. After I set my breakfast plate on the counter, I will think my partner for breakfast.

After I pour glass of water, I'll set out my vitamins. So you have these after I will. So you're designing a habit into your life using this recipe format. So the recipe accounts for A and B, it doesn't include the celebration. Once the habit wires in, you no longer have to celebrate it. I mean, celebration, that emotion serves the purpose of automating the behavior, making the behavior more automatic. And so you have tiny habits, you have, you design the habits by having these recipes. In the back of the tiny habits book, I have 300 sample recipes

that people can browse through, but in the book itself, it's like, here's the one habit that I think you should be doing. And then the rest of the book, the book is about creating any habit that you want. And I give you a step-by-step system for doing that. And I don't prescribe a bunch of habits for everybody because we're all different. But certainly the Maui habit is, oh my gosh, I just, I get emails and comments all the time about how it's those seven words have just transformed people's lives. So I'm really happy to prescribe that to everybody listening here as well. Now, and there's different ways to do it. Some people say, I'm going to make it an awesome day. Some people do it after I look in the mirror,

I will say, it's going to be a great day. So there's variations on it. But starting your day with that, I guess, it's your setting and intention to make it a great day. And I do it even when I don't think it's going to be a great day, because I have found that just by saying that, even if I don't really believe it, like, oh my gosh, today is going to be like awful and terrible. I think it's going to be a great day. And something to me goes, okay, you're going to do it. You can do it to make this a great day. And usually it does have to be a great day.

I think that's super important to set intention in the morning and make that a habit. So talk to us about the time it should take to complete a tiny habit. Is there like a certain time limit that we're looking at? Not really, at one point. So when I started teaching this in 2011, I did say it should be 30 seconds or less. And I backed off of that because so many people say, oh, okay, then I'm gonna do jumping jacks for 30 seconds.

And the timing of yourself, doing something 30 seconds, makes it harder to do. So I've backed away from the 30, I share that early, just to point out, people make it so simple that it doesn't, I'm going to take a lot of time. So instead, I'd say like do three jumping jacks. Or if it's meditation, meditate three breaths, and it's easier to meditate for three breaths than to like say, okay, 30 seconds is off. I'm going to stop now. So one way to think about it is make the habit so tiny that even when you're in a rush, even when you're sick, even when you're distracted, you can still do it. Like, let's say your partner is out in the car honking

saying, and we're gonna be late, come on out. Do you have time to floss on your teeth? No. Do you have time to floss one tooth? Yes, floss one tooth, celebrate, get out in the car, apologize to your partner. So that's how I think about it is just even on your worst day, can I still do this?

And you need to make it that tiny. So you can be really reliable in doing that habit without fail. Yeah, I think that makes total sense. So I'd love to move on to your famous fog behavior model. This is something that honestly, like I think five separate people have mentioned on my podcast and passing or just referring to you specifically.

And it's a really simple formula that helps you pick apart the components of any particular behavior. So this helps us to understand the causes of behavior. It lets us pinpoint any problems to address these behaviors directly. And it boils down to behavior equals motivation ability and prompt. So be equals map. Could you break down these four things? So behavior, motivation, ability, and prompt. So B equals map. Could you break down these four things? So behavior, motivation, ability, and prompt. So the behavior model came together for me in 2007. And I didn't realize I was doing this, but at the time, I think I was feeling quite discouraged by how confusing the academic and research landscape was around human behavior

and social science in general. I mean, it is. I mean, social science is really hard. Social science research is much harder than physical sciences. And I'm not the first to say that. I think Mae Jameson gave a talk and she talked about why. And when I heard that talk, I remember exactly where I was at scampered. I was driving. I remember exactly where I was at Scamford, I was driving. I remember exactly where I was and I was like, oh my gosh, she's exactly right. And I'm a social scientist. And that means that the research findings may not all fit together. You can get conflicting findings.

Even from great experiments, you might be, well, this shows this and this shows this and they don't add up. And after, I guess, 12 years of that, I guess what I did, I didn't deliberately do this, was like, I'm gonna push all of that aside over a decade of studying social science and running my own experiments and so on and start over. And I just went back to like what comprises the behavior.

And I knew motivation was a component. And then I knew ability was a component. And then at one point, prompt dropped in. And that was it. It was like all behavior. And I write it out as an equation, B equals a, a, p, but it's not really an equation, like a math equation. And I call it a model. I don't call it an equation B equals MAP, but it's not really an equation, like a math equation. And I call it a model. I don't call it an equation. So behavior happens when motivation,

ability and prompt come together at the same moment. And if any one of those elements, components is missing, it does not happen. So for example, let's say this morning, I wanted to call my mom, and let's say I, I wanted to call my mom, and let's say I had the ability to call my mom, but nothing prompted me. It didn't happen, so without a prompt, it doesn't happen. Or let's say right now, I really want to call my mom, and I'm seeing it, opposed to note,

this is called your mom, but I can't do it right now because I'm talking to you all, so I don't have the ability. So you can analyze behaviors that happen in terms of what was the motivator, what were the ability factors, and what was the prompt. I used to call that trigger, but I changed it to prompt, so it would be clear. And you could, like you said,

you can also look at behaviors that didn't happen, say, why didn't that behavior happen, and there's a troubleshooting order to it. And what's fun about the behavior model is you can say it in one sentence, behavior happens when these things come together, but now what, 13, 14 years after working at the behavior model, I'm still discovering other ways to use it. So it's really simple to learn on the surface, but it's a really rich and powerful model that it's just fun. It's a blast to get clarity around analyzing behaviors

or designing for behaviors when you know exactly what the components are. It's motivation, it's a building prompt. And within each of those categories, I've defined what motivation is. I've defined what ability is, and I've defined the sources of prompt. So I've gone deeper and mapped out what those things are. Yeah, and I definitely, I'm going to pick your brain in a bit. So let's kind of dive deep on each one of these parts of your model, not equation I said it wrong before. So most people confuse behaviors, aspirations, and outcomes.

So why don't we start there? Why are those things not the same? Yeah, and so that's a different model that I have, but a really important one. In fact, that one's so important. It's on my business card. I have two models on my business card. I have the Fog Behavior Model,

and I have this model that I call this swarm of behaviors. And what the swarm of behavior model helps people distinguish between really two categories, these aspirations and outcomes that I kind of put in the same category, and then specific behaviors. So, to reach any aspiration or to reach any outcome, you've got to do specific behaviors to get there. And so as you're looking at, wow, this aspiration of I want to sleep better or this outcome is, I want to finish writing a novel, any aspiration or outcome is a function of doing behaviors. And so that's what the swarm of behaviors model, a swarm of Bs,

swarm of behaviors model shows is you've got these behaviors with arrows leading to this cloud-like shape that inside the cloud is your aspiration or your outcome. Now you can start either with an aspiration or with an outcome, either way is fine, but to make progress you've got to break it down into specific behaviors and then pick the best behaviors to get there. So there's a difference between what's in the cloud, the aspiration outcome, and specific behaviors. You can design for specific behaviors. That's the B and B equals MAP. You can't design directly for an aspiration. You can't design directly from the outcome. You have to break it down into the behaviors, and then you can use the behavior model and a subset

that is tiny how to stick it there. Now, let's go to the difference between aspiration and outcome. And aspiration is something that isn't quite measurable, and you may not know when you've actually achieved it. Like, oh, I want to sleep better, or I want to be closer to my parents, and you might sense know when you've actually achieved it, like, oh, I want to sleep better, or I want to be closer to my parents, and you might sense you've made progress,

but there's no way to say, yep, I did it. We're an outcome, like, finished writing a book, or getting a certain score on the GRE, and outcome is something that, like, check, I did it. I arrived, I landed there. In our ordinary language, we use the word goal to refer to both things. When you say, hey, what's your goal?

People might say, oh, I want to sleep better. And other people might say, oh, I want to sleep eight hours a night. And we consider both of those goals. But those are different things. And so in behavior design and in my work, I don't use the word goal. And I, instead, will use the word aspiration or use the word outcome, depending on what we're talking about.

But for most people listening, you can think of the word goal, and there's two types of goals, aspirations and outcomes. And those are good starting points, but then you've got to figure out what the behavior is that will take you to that aspiration outcome. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success. Instead, learn everything you need to know about running a business for free by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. The Millionaire University podcast is a show that's

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This is possibility powered by Shopify. Awesome. So let's move on to motivation because I think this is really important. And I think motivation is less important than most of us think. So talk to us about that. What is the role that motivation plays and why is it less important than most of us think. So talk to us about that, what is the role that motivation plays and why is it less important? Yeah. It's both more important and less important.

It's more important that you need to pick new habits that you actually want, okay? So from the beginning, don't pick habits that you don't want, don't pick the sheds, that you're not motivated to do. So it's like so important motivation, that you select new habits based on what you actually want, not based on the sheds. The mistake that gets made is people will pick,

I knew how but they don't really want, and they think they can somehow magically motivate themselves to do it. That's a huge mistake. Somehow we're going to tack on motivation after the fact by gamifying it or making a public commitment or guilt tripping yourself or having a friend guilt trip you and so on. Those things work temporarily, but they don't reliably form habit. So it's more important than people think, pick habits that you want. But then it's less important. Once you do that,

motivation, tacking on motivation after the fact, is not the key to creating habits. So, but that's how a lot of people think about it. It's like, I just keep myself motivated. Well, that's the sign that you didn't pick the right habit to begin with. So back up, pick something you actually want.

Let me give an example. In the world of physical activity, a lot of people think that running is a good idea. Oh, I'm going to run. I don't like to run, but I'm going to get myself to run this year. I'm going to keep myself motivated to run. Anyway, running, and that's a bad idea. So instead, look at other ways to be physically active. It might be rowing, it might be dancing,

it might be vigorous sex, it might be walking your dog. So pick a form of physical activity you actually want to do. And it's okay if you thought you wanted to run, but then you start running and you're like, man, I hate this. It's okay to back out of that and say, nope, that's not for me. I learned something that there's no shame in that.

In fact, the traditional way of forming habits, somehow we get the message of like, once you set this goal, you must stick to this goal or you're a loser or a failure. And that's why practice and revise. It's like, I tried running. I hate it. I'm not going to run. I'm going to revise. And I'm going to pick something else, like paddle boarding or riding my bike or playing touch with my dog.

So amping up motivation, tacking it on, bolting it on after the fact is not how to create habits. So in that regard, it's less important than people think. Because a lot of people think, if I can just motivate myself, I get this habit. And in behavior design, you go way upstream and you select the habit based on what you actually want to do. And I just want to reiterate that. So when it comes to motivation, you want to use the phrase, I want to, rather than I should, because that's truly what you desire and hope you have a better chance, I guess, of actually getting that happen, right?

Yeah, and it's not just a wording shift, really pick habits that you want. And in the food domain, this is pretty easy. Like, you might have heard kale is really good and you should be eating kale. If you don't like kale, don't pick kale, don't make that a habit. And even just rewording it, don't just reword it.

Truly pick foods that you like and create habits around foods that you like eating. And it could be a discovery process. It could be a process of trial and error. And that's all part of it. That's all part of this quest of optimizing your life. My sister, Linda, who runs the tiny habits academy and it's just a superb tiny habits trainer. She talks about it as like trying on shoes and so hey you go in and don't expect the first shoe you trying to be the shoe. It's like oh I don't that one didn't

feel like expected that one didn't really fit my life and so on. That's how she talks about fit my life and so on. That's how she talks about trying out habits. Plan on that your first attempt won't be like that perfect shoe for you. That you will have to try and up you and figure it out. Now, the more you practice creating habits, the better you get. It is a skill. So, the good news is the more you practice in the right way. The faster and better you'll be up. Yep, that'll be the right habit for me. That one I can wire quickly and that one, you know, like other skills. You can get better with practice, but you got to practice in the right way. And I guess the takeaway point here is it's not about bolting on or somehow magically sustaining motivation after the fact. That is a losing direction, a losing approach

to creating habits. Yeah, I think that totally makes sense. So Jeremy and John, let's go to Jeremy and John, let's take a little question break from the mods on stage. Just go to Jeremy then John. Awesome, appreciate it. So just to piggyback off what you just said,

BJ about the running, you know, if that's something that you try, you really dislike it, try something else. So I'm going to use a personal example for Hala. I know she was looking at implementing a cold shower habit in the morning. And of course, that's the most comfortable thing right whether it's an ice bath or a cold shower there's a lot of discomfort which is why most people don't maintain that habit yet it is super beneficial both physiologically and mentally so where does the point come where it's like okay yes you might not like this thing but you know it's very beneficial for you so stick with it. this thing, but you know it's very beneficial for you. So stick with it.

Yeah, you're getting into a domain that I call a Queen Bee Behavior, which is a little bit in the tiny habit spoke, but not much. Like, how do you get yourself to do stuff that at least part of you doesn't want to do? When you look at motivation, I've mapped this out. The behavior model can be used to understand how motivation works. There are things that are motivating you to do stuff. And with my hand, I'm pointing upward like an arrow that's boosting your motivation. And there's things that are demotivating you to do that behavior. And you have these two forces pressing against each other. And the case of the cold shower, you have hope that's like, oh my gosh, I've heard from these

fitness gurus or Vimha for somebody that if I take cold showers, that I'll sleep better and I'll think better so you have hope. Hope is the motivator. Hope to achieve better thinking or better health or something. But then you have the pain of the cold shower, which is demotivating you. So hope and pain are there six components of motivation, hope and pain are two of them. So you've got hope inspiring or motivating you, you've got pain pushing it down. And you can look at those as physics vectors and maybe at the beginning you do it, where it's like, oh my gosh, I'm during pain, because my hope is strong enough, and I believe them off, or I believe my friends who have done this enough that it's going to go over the pain, but maybe after a few times of doing it, it's so painful that that

downward arrow, that downward force gets strong enough to push you below the action line. Now that said, there may be a phase where the pain becomes Not so much pain but becomes invigorating so there may be a period where it's like oh my gosh What was painful the first five days is now not so painful and now I mean I took cold showers for two years when I lived in Peru So I didn't do it because of them off or whatever I I did it because we didn't have heated water. And I do know that, yes, as painful at the beginning, I had no choice of the matter because it was called, and eventually you get used to it, and eventually it starts feeling kind of invigorating. And so you can still think of these two vectors where when the pain diminishes, then the

hope can emerge and keep you above the actual line and keep you consistent. So there may be a period of time where that transition happens. Now for runners, it might even be more clear. So those people that run a lot, I don't, that's not my exercise of choice, but you run as high, but you don't get that right away. But after a while, the pain of running that flips around and it becomes a kind of pleasure that the described is runners high. So one way to look at any habit is the process of what happens over time.

And maybe Vemhoff or somebody said, look, people, it's gonna be painful from 14 days or five days. But once you get through this period, notice how the pain diminishes and you're going to find it invigorating. So for any behavior, really, it's not just what's motivating you, but it's also what's demotivating that behavior, and it's helpful to understand both of those and think of them

as vectors pushing against each other. And you can increase the level of motivation by removing the demotivator in this case paint. I'll stop there. It's kind of a long-winded geeky response to an excellent question. It was an excellent question and I think it's super relevant. So thank you so much Jeremy for thinking about thoughtful question. John, what's your question from Vijay?

Hey there, Halla. Hey Vijay? Hey there, Halla, hey Vijay. My question is actually in slightly different realm of habits and that is, what is the research and methodologies for somebody who wants to actually stop a destructive habit or a disempowering habit? And do you have some methodologies or frameworks around that? Yes, it's a great question.

There is a very, very popular book out there that on the cover claims a proven way to break that habits. That is not true people. There's not a proven way to break all that habits. It's just not true. And whoever decided on that subtitle is deceiving you. It's great marketing, but it's not true. I mean, ask addiction experts, people that do this day in and day out, is there a proven method? And it's hard and it's complicated. The way to think about accurately about habits,

and I guess an addiction is a type of habit, it's it's a person doing an action in a context. It's not just the action of drinking or social media or smoking. It's the type of person doing that action in a given context. And so you've got to account for all three things. And the way I see it is this, it is relatively simple and straightforward to create habits. And I think the tiny habits method is the easiest best way to do that. And it's straightforward. But to work on bad habits and especially on something that you might consider an addiction, there's not one way to do it. And I just, anybody listening to say has a life-threatening addiction?

Don't count on any book, even my book, to be your answer. Find a specialist in that particular addiction. Somebody who does this day in and day out and has a track record, not just a general psychologist. So you have, like, a heroin addiction, go find the heroin addiction expert and work with that person. If you have a drinking problem, find somebody who is an expert in that. If you have a social media problem. So I talk about that have it's not breaking them, but untangling them.

And that's an important difference. Breaking implies that if you just put in a lot of energy in one moment, it's done. And that's not how these things work. We're untangling implies a process, and you, like you untangle a rope, little by little, you get it done. But the practical answer here is bad habits are complicated, and addictions are especially complicated. And you need to find the expert who specializes

in that particular problem and go and find that person and get help with that. And when you look at the complexity of addiction, forming habits seems like child's play. And it is. And addictions, if people listening have a problem, go find that expert. Don't rely on a book, don't rely on medium, don't rely on bloggers, or little quick tips. Take it really seriously and find the person who has spent years and years helping people with that, and they will have different methods and different approaches. In my book, Tiny Habits, I don't make any claims around, I'm going to help you with addictions. Instead, I say, go find the expert. Go find the expert that can help you. And if that expert doesn't work, go find somebody else because I am, you can

hear I'm getting a little cranky about this. I'm not a cranky person, but I'm upset that people are making lots of money misleading people about how easy it is to break these addictions. And that's just not the case. And those people are not just harming people, they're killing people by making those claims. And that's when I was like, go find that person that can help you and possibly save your life. Now, there are bad habits that we have that don't require you to go out and find an expert

to untangle it. And there is a process for entangling unwanted behaviors. And I do walk people through that in the tiny habit's book. But I do just certainly people listening to this that are facing really challenging habits that they cannot break. And it's damaging their lives

or maybe their family life and so on. And I just want those people, you're not alone. You're not alone. There's no shame in having that problem with that addiction. There's just not. And go find someone who specializes in that and can help you. And I know by asking the question, that's not what you're asking about yourself, John. But you know a lot of people care about this. I am speaking to some listener out there who's struggling with drugs or alcohol or social media or, you know, self-trash talk or what have you.

And we all, yeah, we all know people that have been in really tough spaces. And I lost enough to an accidental drug overdose. And that really changed my family and how we talk about this and think about it. And this was years ago. And it really made me take this very, very seriously. And I don't want to imply that you read my book

and you can get over an addiction like that. It is take it seriously and just everybody do what you can to help people or help yourself in these situations. And there is some new thinking around this that's emerging really nicely where these addictions are response to trauma. And you're doing these behaviors is a way to soothe yourself or cope. And that's why I'm saying, there's no shame in this. You are responding, whoever I'm talking to, this abstract person out there in the future to some trauma, and you are coping the best you can with it. And there's

no shame in that. But take the next step and find somebody that can help you deal with the trauma in a less damaging way. Thanks, B.J. I mean, that's very elaborate and accurate to understand that I have as well. And, you know, some of the disempowering or destructive habits that we have, have degrees, right? And if we're into, you know, severe addictions, whether, you know, their drugs, alcohol, combinations of things, they are very, very entangled. And again, I don't wanna veer off on my tangent. I love your work, Jay.

One or two, just get your perspective on that as well. And Rahala, excuse me, is doing a great job with your session. So I'm just gonna hop off, thank you. And we'd love to connect with you offline. So, thank you, John. John, let me thank you for asking that question because I will predict at least a quarter of the people listening now or in the future

have tuned in because they have a habit that they want to get rid of and they've struggled with it. At least a quarter, I was going to say a half but I like to not exaggerate. I'm sure at least a quarter and I might be well over a half. I love your view on this just on the Untangling of the rope because we are dealing with neural networks for a specifically the striate and hippocampus associations all of that part that Formulates part of our identity and the more severe the addictions are the deeper it goes

So I'm following you and tracking. So thank you BJ BJ. Great. Thanks, John. Great having fun again. Thanks, Holly. And I've got to run. Thank you so much. Thanks, John. Thanks for coming on stage here and supporting us. If you guys have a question for BJ, just raise your hand in about 15-ish minutes. We're going to bring some folks up on stage. If they have a question and have the mods kind of ask some more questions that they have questions for BJ. But for now, I really want to get back to the fog behavior model. We just went over motivation and detail. If you guys weren't here before, the formula is really behavior equals motivation, ability, and prompt. And so we just went over motivation and detail, but I do want to talk

about ability. So ability is how easy or difficult it is for us to do any behavior. An ability is actually something a lot of successful companies do to create their business ideas. So they'll find a product or a service that makes life super easy, and they offer something really small and really specific, and that simplicity encourages people to use the product and develop a habit that they really rely on. So BJ, I came to find out that you actually taught one of your former students was the founder of Instagram. So can you walk us through how you use the dimension or the ability dimension to come up with this groundbreaking idea of Instagram, which is now, you know, a hundred billion dollar

company. Yeah. And let me add to that one of the co-founders of Clubhouse is my former student. Wow, I wish I was your former student. Yeah, now when my trigger took my class, that was 2006, I hadn't fully figured out the behavior model because that came to me in 2007. But I was a huge advocate since about the mid 90s about simplicity. Simplicity changes behaviors. Make it easy, make it easy, make it easy.

So I certainly was preaching that gospel of simplicity. And what they did with Instagram was they made it really, really simple to share photos. And at the time when they launched, there were different ways of sharing and posting photos, but Instagram came in and you would only do it on your phone at the beginning. It was only iOS. They didn't have Android. I mean, there were only Apple phones. And you would just take a picture and apply filter and share it. It was drop-dads simple. And they were competing at the time against apps that were more sophisticated,

they were competing against Flickr and other photo services that were way more complicated. And when tech analysts look at things, they're often looking at feature sets and it's like, oh, feature parity. Are they offering the same features? But what might trigger and his co-founder were able to do with Keep It really simple

and they had to encourage the courage to keep it dropped at simple. Only square photos, only 12 filters, only on iOS, and so on, and despite all the pressures to add features and add complexity, they resisted that. And you really got to hand it to them for having the courage to keep it really, really simple. How much did I influence those decisions? I don't know. But what I do know is in the class, the final project in the class, that my Krieger and others took. It was about

this 2006. It's like, okay, here's the thing we call mobile phone. One of these days, you'll be able to take a picture with these phones and you'll be able to share it. Here, this was before the iPhone and it was before apps. This was all like pre, this like Nokia era. But it was like, you know, fast forward when we're going to be able to do this. And the design brief was come up with a positive use for sharing these photos. And so what might trigger in two of us, they worked in teams of three, they came up with this idea called send the sunshine. And it was the idea of taking picture of a sunset or a sunrise and sending it to somebody who needed an uplift in their day. Which, and it was just really simple and straightforward. And after Instagram became a big thing, I went back and looked at that assignment

and looked at how I reacted and graded. And Mike and his team did get the top grade in the class. They got an 18 out of 20, which in my classes are really, really good score. Nobody gets a 20 out of 20, almost never. And I wrote, yeah, I forgot what I wrote. I said, oh, this is really provocative, did it, did it, did it. So I did recognize it as being a really good project, but they actually didn't build anything. Then Mikey went off into various things and bourbon and things that didn't work and then pivoted and they moved toward photo

sharing. As I see it, the kernel, the seed was planted in the class, where it was like, oh, there's a really simple way to share photos. What's striking to me is not just Instagram. When you look at everything that's gone big, Google, Twitter, TikTok, everything that's gone big started really, really small and simple. Google started with the search box. That's all it was.

And I remember I was working for, I remember very, very specifically, I was working for a company in San Jose, a research center, and they were laughing at Google how simple it was. And as I got this is ridiculous. You've got out of Vista and Yahoo. And you had all these, what they were called portals,

that had all this information, and you could also search. But Google just had a search box. And people were making fun of it. It was so simple. And then when Twitter launched, TechCrunch came out and said it was idiotic. Because it was just so stupid and so lame, because it was so simple. And so lame, because it was so simple.

So when you look at the pattern of what works, everything that is gone big in recent times, everything started out with the exception of games. Video games are an exception. They're an exception to lots of things. It started out really, really simple and clubhouse did this as well. Then only after you start getting traction, then you add features in more complexity.

And so that is, and that's the pattern for TinyHavis as well. You started out really, really simple. And after the habit wires in, then you can reliably grow it. You can floss more than one, too. You can do more than walk to the mailbox and so on. So it's the same pattern as what helps company go big as the tiny habits method. It helps you wire in habits, small, simple, get them firmly rooted, and then you can worry about what's above ground with the manifestation of

that habit is. So I thought this was so interesting. It was one of my favorite parts of your book. So everybody who's listening, remember, when you're coming up with a new product or a service, you got an aim for simplicity to start, like you said. And then you can add on features and make it super fancy. So let's move on to prompt. I just would like you to kind of give a deeper overview

of that. And for my understanding, if the prompt does not exist, the habit or behavior will cease to exist as well. So do I have that right? Yes, yes, you're right. And there are three sources of prompt. So a prompt is anything that you can use the word Q. Some people still use my word trigger,

which I think has become a more complicated word. So I really avoid it or a call to action. It's anything that says, do this behavior now, and there's three sources. One is something in your context. So it can be a post-it note. It can be in alarm. It can be a person reminding you.

So it's something contextual. You can have contextual prompts. And we have lots of those. Wait too many. Another one, what I call a person prompt, where you simply remember, oh, I just remembered to call my mom, where I remembered to grade my students' papers or something like that.

That's different than a contextual one. It comes from inside of you. And the third source of prompt, I call an action prompt, is this is what you use in tiny habits. You use an existing action to be the reminder to do the habit. So brushing becomes the reminder prompt for flossing. And we use all three of those types of prompts in our everyday life. But for habits, the breakthrough in the hack is to use action prompts.

To use a routine you already do. To be the prompt to reminder. Not to use action prompts to use a routine you already do to be the prompt to reminder, not to use context prompts. Don't use alarms, don't use post-in notes, don't use whatever. I mean, because that doesn't scale. And you really want to create dozens and hundreds of habits eventually. And if you have alarms and post-in notes that you're relying on to remind you, you could kind of blind to those or you know, we're welding a number of alarms and post-its.

So you can learn to use an existing routine you already do to be your prompt for a new habit that you want. And that is the most powerful way to do it when it comes to habits. When it comes to one-time actions, like things you're just doing once, like let's say I have to make a phone call and schedule an appointment with my dentist. Well then I'm just going to use a context prompt. I'm going to write it down a little post it, put it in a little place. So for a one-time action, that's great solution. But for a habit, which is a different type of behavior, you really want to use an action prompt. In other words, a routine you already do.

Yeah, I think that makes total sense kind of attaching it to something that you're already doing, rather than trying to have your environment kind of prompt you to do anything, because like you said, you can start to just see things over and over again and just ignore it. Whereas I guess an action is more meaningful and it does a better job, I guess, in terms of helping you stick to your habit, is that right? Yeah, and it's, when you place, so the new habit, when you place it in a good spot, spot of your existing routine, it can just feel supernatural. It can just feel like normal and natural

and like you've always done it. It's almost like a piece of the puzzle that you put in exactly the right spot. It's like, there it is. There it is. Wow, that was simple. So you're really designing behavior by behavior, what your routines look like. And I just finished training every two weeks, our tiny habits coaches get special training.

And I just finished just before this where I talked about behavior sequences and some stuff I haven't published around behavior sequences and so on so you're really looking at how do I place this new habit in my existing sequence of behaviors or routines in a place where it fits naturally so you're looking for a natural fit and there's some characteristics of that one is frequency of the behavior one is the location of the behavior. So you want to... Like, if it's an eating behavior, you don't want the prompt to be something you do in the garage

because you're not eating in the garage, you're eating in the kitchen. And the other one is theme. If it's like a calming habit, you probably want it to follow a calming routine you already have. And so those are... It's how we train our coaches to find the right anchor for have it. You're looking at the frequency matching that, the theme and the location. Those are the criteria to find, how do you find the right anchor or

routine to attach this new habit to. I love that. I'm absolutely enjoying this conversation. If you guys are enjoying this conversation, clap your mics on stage. If you guys are having a great time, I think this is excellent. Before we do that, I do want to answer this one question. How do we create positive habits in our lives?

I know that you have a seven step program essentially that you can convert a vague aspiration into a lasting habit. I'd love for you to go over that at a high level. I know we don't have all the time in the world, but I think now we have a great foundation. Everybody will at least understand what you're talking about, and we can go through these seven steps. Yeah, I'm going to answer it in a slightly different way, in a faster way. Sure. Level one, the fastest, simplest way is to use a tool that I created called Recipe Maker. So it's a tiny habit recipe maker. You'll find it at tinyhabits.com slash recipes. It's designed for the mobile phone. So you can use it on your mobile phone,

you can use it on an iPad, you can use it in a web browser, nothing to install. And you swipe through, what have it do I want? You swipe through cards, and then you swipe through, well, what am I going to anchor to? What's going to prompt or remind me? And you're matching the new habit and the anchor. So it lets you match those. And then on the back end, the system makes a prediction of how good that habit is.

So there's some AI on the back end, some smarts on the back end that gives you a green light, a yellow light, or a red light for that combination. So if you said, after I brush my teeth, I'm going to clean the garage, you would get a red light on that. You would have a red light. If it's after I brush my teeth,

I'm going to floss one tooth, that you'd get a green signal. So that's really the fastest, easiest way. Just go to tinyhabbs.com slash recipes, goof around with that, and you can have tinyhabbs recipes designed in just a minute or two. Next level up is to do the free Tinyhabbs 5-Day program.

And you do that by going to tinyhabbs.com slash join. It's a five- day program that you're working with a real human coach, a very kind and supportive person that I've helped to train. And that person is not getting paid and you're not paying that person. That person just doing it because he or she loves to help people.

And this is the program that I started in 2011 and coached thousands and thousands of people in. And then I started training other people to do this. The tiny habits coaches, the total time investment over the course of the week is about 35 minutes over the course of a week and you'll practice three habits. And you don't have to worry about the seven steps. And you don't have to read the whole tiny habits book. The program works really well. We evaluated

every week. In fact, we had a five-day program meeting just before this call, where we're always trying to optimize and make it better. And you will work with a real human who is there to help you succeed. So that's kind of next level, but very simple. And then if you really want to get serious about it, read the tiny avid's book, which is a much, much bigger commitment, then recipe maker or the five-day program. So that would probably the order I suggest. Goof around with recipe maker for sure, sign up for the five-day program. And in terms of my book, yeah, you know, if you've got 14 bucks, get my book.

I worked really hard on it. It's a really good book. I do have to say, I was really, really into it, which is why I had all these good questions because I was actually interested in the book. So great job, BJ. Well, definitely stick those links in the show notes and if anybody deams me the word replay,

I'll have my team also share those links out when they give and if anybody deams me the word replay, I'll have my team also share those links out when you got, when they give you guys the link to the episode so everybody can get it. Yeah, bam. If you're ready to take your business to new heights, break through to the six or seven figure mark or learn from the world's most successful people, look no further because the Kelly Roach show has got you covered. Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely

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Thank you, Tala. Hi, BJ. My question is, everyone's heard the saying of tackle the most difficult task first, right? So what are your thoughts about tackling the most difficult task first, right? So what are your thoughts about tackling the most difficult habits first? I disagree with that statement. I think what you should do first thing in the morning is tackle, get some really fast wins. Tackle simple things and build your momentum. I call it success momentum because that then increases your motivation even higher than you had first

thing in the morning, and then you can tackle harder things. So I know people said, yeah, pick your hardest project first. I disagree with that. Now I have not done scientific research to, for that claim, I just know in my own life, I just go for the fast wins, and I have a way of color coding my tasks. If I put a blue sticker on it, it means I can do this in two minutes or less. I just knock them off. I build momentum, and then the more significant projects come later.

But your question is, I would apply the answer exactly to Habits. Don't pick a habit that you've tried to form for years and years and years. Even the tiny Habits method could help you, but pick simple habits and learn the skill of habit formation, build your momentum with succeeding with habits before you go back to that one habit that maybe someone's always struggled with. So I'm saying, no, don't pick the hardest habit first. Pick the simplest one that you actually want want and let me give to analogies. One is, let's say you want to play piano really well and so you don't play it all and you pull out a piano concerto.

And you say, oh, this is what I want to play, so I'm going to start with a concerto, it's really hard. You know that's not going to work, right? You're going to start with simple songs and build your way out. Another analogy that's near and dear to my heart is surfing because when I'm in Maui, I surf every day. And if I surfing, you don't go over to Kanahar Jaws on the side of Maui that has massive waves. Oh, I'm going to go, you know, I want to be a surfer. So I'm going to go to Jaws or Piahi, the Hawaiian name, and surf those huge waves.

You know that's not going to work. You start with the tiny waves and you learn the skills of surfing and then you can move up. I advocate the exact same thing for habits is pick the easy ones and learn the skill of habit formation. There's a set of skills I unpack this in the book, Tiny Habits, and then when your skills increase, then you can step up to the bigger challenges. Just like you can step up to hard-of-peanet pieces, you can step up to the bigger challenges just like you can step up to hard-of-peanut pieces you can step up to bigger ways. Don't start with concertos, don't start with the man with the ways

that draws. And VJ I knew that based on the name of your book I just wanted to see what you would say but I knew that's what you would say because tiny habits it's building up the tiny habits so that you can program yourself to, you know, and I have to get your book and read it because it sounds amazing. So thank you for being here for us today. Well, Dimple, what I liked about your question and John had a similar, when people ask questions that you know the answer to, but it helps me go deeper or helps me explain it to people who may not have seen my work as much.

That's a contribution to conversation. So thank you for that question. You're welcome. Yeah, thank you so much, Dimple. So, hey, so, hey was actually the owner of the CBK club. So thank you so much for allowing us to host in your club. And if you guys haven't yet, make sure you tap that green house

at the top of the screen. So, hey, what's your question for BJ? Thanks, Allah. I love these conversations always in BJ. I want to honor to have you on the UN Behavior Club, big fun of BJs, since I was a startup always, we used to look at BJ's work, the BJ model for kind of changing behavior for mental health.

So BJ, you recently were teaching that Stanford course on Clubhouse and you let me do a session as well. So my question is going to be, what can you share with us about habit building on Clubhouse? What have you learned? Is there anything that you can share with us? Yes, a lot of things. First of all, Clubhouse itself is such a good example for many people of how habits form. For probably most of the people here live with us, not so much people in the podcast, of course, with people that are here at Clubhouse, being how quickly the Clubhouse habit formed in your life, it wasn't repeated 66 days. So many of us is like one and done. It's like, ah, it helped me do what I already wanted to do. Clubhouse, which is connect to people, learn stuff, teach, and it helps you

feel successful. And so if you need an example of habits that wiring quickly, so many people, we can just point to Clubhouse and go, oh my gosh, it helped me have this feeling of success, the emotion that I call shine. So that wasn't so much the class, but there is a connection between those of us using Clubhouse and understanding habits in a way that the tradition doesn't highlight because the tradition and what gets perpetuated is 66 days to create habits and things like that, that are not the key to creating habits. But in terms of my class, and so I thank you for being a guest speaker in my class. The students loved it, and I learned things.

And I teach a new class at Stanford every year on a new topic. And I teach things, or I run classes on topics that I want to learn about. And so for me this year, it was like, let's look at Clubhouse. It was a challenging class. And here's why. For someone like you or me, we start a room and people show up in the room.

And you can get the conversation going. But for students with no followers and no platform, they would plan these rooms and have these great rooms, and maybe nobody would show up or maybe one or two people. So one of the common themes in the class was we need to bring people into the room. And without that, it was hard for students to really execute on their plans and so on.

So that just frankly was a problem. And so when, like, so, hey, you drop in in the room or can all would drop in in the room and give a burst of listeners, but then the students really needed to learn how do you keep people's attention. Because you are what two or three clicks away from all different room. So there was a learning experience for the students, but there was also a learning experience for me. I'll just list number one. I should have spent more time and more effort in teaching students, the ins and outs and clubhouse, and especially the skills and moderation. So I I sort of changed on that. And I probably did that because I love talking, I love moderating, I love teaching and blabbing away and moderating is pretty natural for me because I don't know how long time.

But in retrospect, we should have done more training with the students on that. Number two, we really needed to create a reliable way to help the students bring people into the rooms because even if they had planned a really great great experience if nobody shut up, it was discouraging. Number three, maybe I'll just stop here, there's more. I, toward the end of the class, really said students, what you have to do is make it simple and social and fun. Stop doing these super, you've heard serious rooms, you've heard deep discussions like what we're doing here,

but that's with a skilled moderator, that's with a real plan, that's with a club that can bring people in. So if you're starting basically at zero, make it simple, make it social. In other words, interactive and find a way to make it fun. And toward the end, I started doing rooms with students that were more like game shows,

because I used to do all these game shows for my family and when I was a college, just goofball game shows. And I like that kind of thing. So I started demonstrating to the students how you can have these contests and stuff like that. And I just wish I would have realized earlier in the class that we were gonna have these challenges.

So hey, if I didn't really answer your question directly, but I did answer by saying, what did I learn and maybe the mistakes I made in designing a class? Yes, the students learned a lot. And yes, support from you and so Hale and others was just terrific and Ron Goutman was a wonderful co-teacher. But even during the 10-week period of the class,

Clubhouse shifted and Clubhouse changed. It's a moving target, as you know. And so what you thought was gonna be Clubhouse then evolves and evolves. And for me, that's kind of fun, but for the students, especially Stanford students that are so concerned about performance and grades and so on.

I think it was a little stressful for some of the students. So hey, do you have any? That's a great answer. Comments on that, or any responses? No, no, no, that's a great answer. I had a lot of fun in that class. I think it's a pretty novel that you're actually teaching us down in class on-class. But yeah, it's Clubhouse changes so quickly I try and keep up myself.

So thanks for the answer and BJ, we'd love to have you back on it. I can't wait till you back on the even bigger club. Well, and thank you for that question, but for your support in the class. Yeah, and I would like to just throw myself out there as a Stanford volunteer. If you need anybody to help teach your students how to moderate or how to market themselves and you know get a clubhouse room that's packed. I can teach them tricks about the algorithm and how to promote your show off the app and all of that.

So if you ever need any help, I'm here for you, BJ. All right, so let's move on to Kuna. What is your question for BJ? I know you were flashing your mic before. Oh, BJ, I was so honored to be part of your class as well. I got it the last lecture and you know that you've been someone that made a dream of mine come through, since your class was taught, I've got into a PhD program.

You know, I'm gonna embark on my own journey. Yeah. That's true. So I've discovered with tiny habits. My question for you now is what's next? I mean, what's exciting you're here and now? What's burning you up in the tiny habits world or beyond? Oh, what a good question. So my Stanford lab has become part of the School of Medicine

at Stanford, and we're now positioned within an area there that's all about human flourishing, and which is terrific, and that's a really good fit for me and my lab members. So this is new, and so working with the Neil and others, I've been encouraged to really help the students flourish as part of my lab and as part of my teaching. So we will be doing a course on tiny habits for happiness. So that's this fall, as tiny habits for happiness and possibly empathy as well. So we might bring in the work of another Stanford researcher,

map out that course and then probably repeat the course again, but tiny habits for another purpose. It might be tiny habits for service, or tiny habits for another purpose. It might be tiny habits for service or tiny habits for civic involvement. So developing the foundational 10 week tiny habits course that I can then basically franchise out and hand the curriculum to other teachers and other universities, but then apply it especially to the research insights at Stanford. You've got Kale Twack, you've got Ventura,

you've got really these great research findings that haven't been fully operationalized, they're fully made practical for the students. So the exciting thing here, that wasn't my idea, was somebody else's idea, and I just was like, amazing. It's how do we take the research insights that are emerging at Stanford and then make them practical in the students' lives and the way I say it is you make a practical through the tiny habits method. And once you do that,

then how do we scale it beyond Stanford? So, Kunal, since you joined my last class, this has been a new thing and these pieces have come together. So that is really, really exciting to me. And the idea that happened in a meeting, it was beginning, it wasn't my idea, but when I heard it, it resonated. And it's like, yeah, that's what my lab should be doing. Because so often academic research gives you general insights, but it doesn't tell

you how to put it into practice. So for us to be, and we're calling it the Rosetta Project, it's a Rosetta because it's a translation. For us to be the translation between research findings and then putting it into practice in students' lives and then people outside of Stanford, to practice in student slides and in people outside of Stanford, just man that just feels like an awesome path. What do you think of that, can all? You have my own research support from the Indian School of Business to Stanford. I'm with you all the way. I'm so excited and you know I've been talking to the same group so I'm excited to support you and make the impossible possible together. I need to be in line with Michael. Small goal.

Time you have. Time you have. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Kunal. And I'm going to move it over to Nihih. What's your question for BJ? Thanks so much, Halle.

Hi, BJ. It's so nice to us to do again. Hey, thank you. Hello. So my question is about struggles relating to focus. I know that for myself, I'm a very high achiever, but at times I may kind of have some difficulties with my ADHD in focusing,

and I know so many people struggle with this too. So I was curious to hear your thoughts. Are there ways to utilize the tiny habits model to assist with greater focus and being able to get into that flow state. Yes. The short answer is yes. The longer answers, I'm not an expert on ADHD and I do have tiny habits coaches who are. And so they may have a more sophisticated answer, but I'll give you two. I'll give you two practical things that I think will apply, but they may not be as sophisticated

as what you're asking about. Number one, when you find that you are procrastinating on a project, and the time you have at recipe goes like this, after I feel like I'm procrastinating, I will set a timer for seven minutes, and just get started for those seven minutes. So the idea is, you just get started for those seven minutes. So the idea is you just get rid of the time for three minutes or seven or eleven, whatever, you span it back and you just say, okay, BJ, just do it for seven minutes when you're

taxes or cleaning the garage or whatever thing you're not, you're avoiding. And when the time goes up, I can stop. I don't have to look at taxes. I don't have to clean the garage or whatever. And you trick avoiding. And when the timer goes up, I can stop. I don't have to look at taxes. I don't have to clean the garage or whatever. And you trick yourself. And that way you kind of trick yourself into getting started. And most of the time, once the timer goes off, you're like, oh my gosh, I'll just keep going. Okay. So that's one way to think about it. Let me get your response to that. Do you think that could be helpful for you? And maybe you do something like this already. Yes, it is very helpful.

I usually do the Pomodoro technique where it's like 25 minutes, but I feel that part of where I struggle is being able to really sustain for those 25 minutes. So if we can get down into even smaller chunks, makes a whole lot of sense. Even smaller. The next technique is specifically for writing, but I think it can

be used for other things. So let's say you're trying to write every day, and so what I advocate is at the end of the writing session, you make it a habit of writing, listing. Here are three things. When I come back, I can do. There are really simple things. So what you do is you deliberately design for when I come back tomorrow, there are three really easy things I can do that can get me going. And that might be look of reformat all the headings. It might be change the fonts.

It might be go through and copy edit for something very, very simple. And what you're doing by that. So you're purposely leaving things undone that when you come back the next day, it's like, oh, I can do that, I can do that, I can do that. So you're creating, I think of it as like an on ramp onto the highway.

So rather than the on ramp going up and required tons of effort, it's a down ramp. And you just go down the down ramp and you do this, you do this, you do this, and then you built momentum and you're on your way. So for writing, now I haven't validated this through research, but for writing, it seems in my own life and some people I've shared it with,

it's a really good hack, where you deliberately design it to be really easy and tiny to get started again. So often when we procrastinate or void something, we're doing it because we're afraid of failing or we're afraid of being frustrated. And so if you make it, so you're going to succeed, boom, boom, boom, then that fear of failing and that fear of frustrating gets diminished. And I just find that it's a great hack and it's a great practice to have for writing. Now, how would I apply that to exercise?

Not sure. How would I apply it to tidying the house? Maybe you leave a few things on diet and say, okay, tomorrow morning when I keep tidying, it'll leave us, but it's mainly a writing hack. And it might work for problem sets and other kinds of intellectual things. I just haven't applied it there.

What do you think of that idea? hack and it might work for problem sets and other kinds of intellectual things. I just haven't applied it there. What do you think of that idea? I love that idea. I think it makes so much sense as well because you're essentially priming yourself for success, right? And you're overcoming the initial hurdles of, oh, I just don't want to get into it. But by creating something that is small enough that no matter what state of motivation you're in, that you feel competent and confident in completing it,

that it then kind of parlies into that flow state. So I love that and I'm definitely going to get it right. Yeah, and let me add one more because this will help me share a concept that it's really important that's often misunderstood. Another approach, and I do this a lot, everybody, when I'm working on something, or I'm resisting something, I just say PJ, just dive in and do a crappy job. Just make it a draft. Don't even try to do a good job. Just do it, and you know you're going to like throw away the design or get rid of the slides or scrap what you've written. In other words, just radically lower your expectations.

And that helps me get started and helps me keep going. And the most of the time it turns out way better than I thought. And the way that relates to tiny habits is this. With tiny habits, you make something so simple and tiny, you set the bar very low. And you don't raise the bar on yourself. Some people think tiny habits is, oh, you floss one tooth, and then you floss two teeth, and you floss five teeth, and you move the bar up. That's not the tiny habits method. You set the bar low, and you always keep it low. So even now, 10 years later, my tiny habit is floss one tooth.

I do all my teeth, but I count the extra as extra credit. So the tiny habits method is not incrementally increase the size of the habit. It's at any given moment, any given day, you do as much of that habit as you want to do. Even on day one, you can run a mile, you can do 20 pushups, you can floss all your teeth. If you have motivation to do it, but you count the extra as extra credit. So you set the bar low, you keep it low, you, and there is a skill to saying,

good for me, I flossed all my teeth. I only needed to do one by a flossing all. That's a skill to be able to kind of like mentally see that as a success, but you're not incrementally growing the habit. You're sitting the bar low, you're allowing yourself to overachieve and you're thinking of yourself as to overachieve

or a plus student, which then radiates and ripples out to other aspects of your life. But one of the keys, and we didn't talk about this, so I'm wedging this idea, is you are calibrating the size of the habit to the motivation you have in that moment. And if your motivation's high, knock yourself out and do a lot. If the motivation's low, let's do the tiny version of it and

count it as good. I actually want to kind of ask a follow-up question to this because I agree. I feel like we didn't cover this in detail enough. I actually want to kind of ask a follow-up question to this because I agree. I feel like we didn't cover this in detail enough and I do want to make sure everybody understands it. So I'd love for you to give us an example of how we turn like a bigger habit like I want to get better sleep, which I'm not sure if I if that's even an appropriate behavior. If that's an exciting, you can help me there if I need to further define my behavior. If that's an anxiety, then you can help me there if I need to further define my behavior. But something about sleep,

getting better sleep, can you talk us through like what that tiny habit of that would be? Yeah, sleep is a tough one because the factors are different for us. So let me just turn to healthy eating. And to crack that nut, I would say first focus on using the tiny habit

method to create healthy snacks and just start working on healthy snacking behavior. Maybe that snack you would have in the afternoon to make it really, and figure out what healthy snacks you like. And as you, I'm looking at a cucumber here that I've happened, or pecans, or whatever it turns out that people, I mean, it's different for different people. It's healthy for you, but I know cucumbers and pecans are healthy for me. And just why are unhealthy snacks? Don't worry about all your other eating behaviors. Just focus on the snacks and where they're meant. As you feel successful eating the pecans, eating the cucumbers, eating the sour crowd

or whatever your snack is, when you feel successful doing that, yes it wires and the habit, the feeling of success in doing a habit shifts your identity. So if it's a snacking behavior, you'll start thinking, I'm the kind of person who eats healthy snacks. And as that identity shifts, even though you just designed

maybe afternoon snacks, your identity then will influence your behavior in other contexts. You go to a party and you have the identity, I'm the one who eats healthy snacks, you're gonna choose healthier snacks. You're on the plane, they offer you an healthy snack, you'll think, oh, I'm the kind of person who you tell these snacks. No, thank you on that.

So you don't have to design every single behavior or have it into your life. What you're really doing in some ways with the tiny habit method is you are changing your identity through creating a track record and a feeling of success. And the, Cal, I want to call it miraculous. The remarkable thing about it is your success doesn't have to be huge like running a marathon. It can be like, oh my gosh, that afternoon, I have a cucumber and three pecans for my snack. Hooray! I'm the kind of person who can tell these snacks.

So that's what can open the door to transformation in your nutrition behavior, for example. And then when you say, wow, I'm the kind of person who can change, that's a broader category of identity shift. And even from the beginning, the tiny habits method, I didn't recognize it said the start. It was probably about three years in. It was probably about 2014, where I actually started measuring and assessing that after the five

day program. And almost everybody, I'll say over 80% of people in the five day program end up creating other habits and making other changes in their life, other than the three that they worked under the week, and most people report a change in identity, where I'm the kind of person who can change. I'm the kind of person who can follow through. I'm the kind of person that can open myself up to new possibilities. And for me, when I look at the results every week, that's the thing I look at first,

is the identity shifts because it's like, oh my gosh, this program took maybe a half hour over the course of a week and through being successful, even in these tiny ways, people are now thinking of themselves differently and that identity shift then ripples out into other parts of their life. And that to me is just terribly exciting. So, sorry to change the topic on you from sleep to snacking. But I think you can start anywhere. Start where you want to start everybody. And if you don't want to focus on something like exercise,

maybe you want to focus on tidyness or something else. Start where you want to start, because change will lead to change. And it's easier to change and feel successful in areas where you want to. So start where you, just like if you're learning to play the piano, play songs that you like. Don't play songs that you hate. And that is start where you want to start. That is, you know, maximum run. help yourself do what you already want to do. I'll stop there. That was great. And I do want to be conscious of your time.

I know that we're at a time here. BJ, before we go, I do want you to be able to give people words of encouragement in terms of their habit building. So this is your moment to kind of leave us off on a positive note when it comes to building our tiny habits. Yeah, well, let me build on what I just said. Start where you want to start. If you feel like you're working on sheds or it feels like enough to climb back up and pick, maybe it's creativity, maybe it's relationships, maybe it's gratitude. Start where you want, because the skills are the same for whatever kind of habits you're creating. It's the same skills. So you can develop those skills quickly and really pretty easily if you do the five day program

or apply the tiny habits book. And with those skills and you can level up, you can do more than one habit at a time. And once you learn these skills, here's what it feels like. And I've used this analogy before, so I apologize if people have heard it. Before you knew how to drive, driving probably felt scary and complicated.

And so you took lessons of how to hold the steering wheel and how to pair a little park and how to merge on the traffic. And it was very deliberate. And I was like, oh my my gosh, you learned those skills. Now think about driving. If you need to go to the grocery store you get in the car, you don't even think about it, you go to the grocery store, you come home effortless. That's the future you have ahead of you in terms of creating habits. Right now it might seem overwhelming and complicated and lots of things to pay attention to

like before you learn to drive. But the more you practice in the right way, the more it becomes second nature. And it's like, oh, my life is here in terms of habits and I want it to be here. It can feel like just getting in the car, going there, no stress, maybe there's a little twist internal along the way, but not no big deal. And it can feel very easy and even fun. I mean, people are part of it's fun. And I think the reason they say it's fun, it's not like fun like roller coaster or watching a funny movie. I think they say it's fun because it's a self-discovery and it's a journey of delights, not a journey of frustration. Whereas previously with old methods,

behavior change and habits, it was frustration and grit and paying in there. Where this one is, you're feeling good, you're recognizing your successes, you're being flexible, you're being playful. And so you've got a great path ahead of you. So just maybe remember that car analogy. Remember what it was like before you could drive a car and how hard that felt. Now apply that to habits might feel hard or scary. But dive in, start practicing, have fun. It's not dangerous like driving a car. And you will level up and you'll look back and go, oh my gosh, I am the kind of

person who can change. Oh my gosh, here's a new habit I want, or here's a new domain I want to tackle, and it will not intimidate you because you will have a system and you will have a set of skills. And that is the subtitle of my book, the small changes that change everything. So, and you can't, it's entirely possible.

So no matter where you are in your life, whatever age, whatever challenges you face, and so on, there are ways to make it better. And it's not as hard as you think. And that's what my work has been all about in the last 10 years. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, BJ. Thank you so much for your time for staying over,

for all of your wisdom. If you're on stage, please give BJ a clap here, make him feel appreciated. And if you guys are in the audience, make sure you follow BJ here on Clubhouse. I'd like everybody in the room here to give BJ a follow right now, follow him on Clubhouse and on Instagram.

And thanks again, guys. We're here every single Tuesday night for a live, young and profiting interview. We've got some super awesome guests coming up like Emily Fletcher and other folks who are really excited. Again, BJ, thank you so much. With that, this is Hala and friends signing off

until next time. Have a great night, everybody. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights

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