Your Favorite Thing with Wells & Brandi - Ben Higgins and Jamie Tworkowski

Episode Date: August 30, 2018

This week on #YFT Ben Higgins stops by for an impromptu hang while in Los Angeles. Later in the episode, Brandi’s longtime friend Jamie Tworkowski (speaker, author, and founder of To Write Love On Her Arms) stops in to discuss the 10 year anniversary of his non-profit and highlight their upcoming World Suicide Prevention Day campaign.

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So you can't say that out loud, though, what you just told us. No. No. I'm saying about your exciting news. Oh. No. Okay. Well, never mind. JK. Internet. Let's do an intro. You want to do it or me? Bros and hoes, you're listening

to Your Favorite Thing Podcast with Wells and Brandy. Can we just really quick talk about how your mom totally tried to change the name of the show? Do you like how I went to bat for us? Yeah. I mean, I don't really care either.

It does not sound as good. I know. I wonder why they thought that. I don't know. Whatever. Ben Higgins is here. Ben's back. I'm back.

I just like coming in and talking to y'all. Honestly. Honestly, your last podcast, we had rave reviews on. Are you serious? Yeah. People love you. You want to know why I think people really... Yes. We'll giveave reviews on. Are you serious? Yeah. People love you. You want to know why I think people really... Yes.

We'll give you a bell. You are your favorite thing. You know why I think people liked you on our podcast? Is because you finally talked about normal human things instead of really deep conversations, which you do. Every time I see you, you like look me in the eyes and you're like, let's really get into this shit.

Well, and I'm always like, Oh my God, I don't know if I can do this. Is that not fun? I always just feel like I'm like, I gotta, I gotta like have like rehearsed answers for you.

But when, but when you came on the show, I don't like that. I put off that vibe. You don't have to have any, I don't want you rehearsed. I just want to know you. Like I want to know you.

I know, but I, here's the thing. I respect you a lot and i want you to like me so i want the answers to be correct oh i like you already no matter what your answers were like i feel like well as you come to me with some of the worst news like information like you've committed the worst sin and i would be like all right let's let's do it like how like why first off okay well first of all i haven't committed a bad sin. Thank God. Have I done this?

Have I come to you? No, I said I feel like we're at this place. Oh, yeah, okay. Oh, you got my back. Yeah. Like I like you no matter what. I know. Aw, that's cute.

You guys love each other. You went to wherever Belize within Honduras. Wow. He pays so much attention. Who cares? I mean, you went there. I did. Did you experience this? Like this like deep look into your soul Ben thing?

Well, Ben like he turns it on though. So like it's like one minute he's like sitting next to you on the bus like laughing and joking and having fun. Oh, coffee. And then the next he's like standing up in front of everybody giving a speech that you would think he'd rehearsed for days, but it just like comes out of his mouth. It just happens.

All right. So I don't leave here insecure or questioning myself. These are all. Like, what are we saying? Okay. So the reason why I was saying this was because I think the reason why people love that podcast is because. You let your guard down. We talked about

manscaping for like 35 minutes, which I don't think people are used to hearing come out of your mouth, like stuff like that. But they're used to hearing it come out of my mouth all the time. And so I think why people liked it is because like, oh, I think we're getting like a real honest

conversation with Ben. And I think that's why people liked it. I've been asked a lot about like that podcast because of the little nuggets that we we threw out there people still bring it up to me in passing it kind of matters what environment i'm in yeah honestly if i'm in an environment like your podcast where i know it's somewhat a safe place like i know that it's acceptable for me to be, like to be just like very open. Yeah. And that people are listening because they enjoy the openness.

Then I'll do it. Like if we're on like my podcast. You feel pressure. I know people don't really care about what I'm doing. They really want to just hear the Bachelor recap. Yeah. Like, or if I'm, you know, so there's like different stages.

Or if I'm just around my friends, we can have deep conversations. But at some point when you talk to somebody every day like they pretty much know where you're at or at least you'd hope they would yeah so it kind of like transitions and then as you said like the trip to honduras it's really important for me on those trips going in you're playing a role playing a role and saying hey we have a like a vision and a mission that like i work in every day. I work for Generous that directly affects Honduras. And so I know this mission. I know this vision.

But when I have a captive audience for five days, I want to make sure that everybody on that trip knows the mission and knows the vision. So you can choose, do I want to be involved or do I not? And that's the question. And the question isn't, what exactly is happening down here so there is that level of i want to portray and put on that i know what i'm talking about because i mean i hope i would yeah you're the guy in charge yeah you're supposed to be knowing what you're talking about yeah you'd hope so so so anyways i guess my point is there's like little like there's different places for different seasons but i hope i don't change the core of who i am i just think it's the the way you behave

in certain certain environments is that is that is that normal abnormal is that respectable or is that where we say oh he just isn't himself all the time no no no no i don't think that's what i was saying at all you definitely have to play to your audience right yeah and the audience of this show is like people who want to hear slapstick stupid yeah humor right i'm sure that people that listen to like almost famous they want to hear like bachelor recaps and stuff but i think what i'm saying is i think we'll love that one thing is because people are so used to seeing you as to playing to one audience right yeah either the people that are watching the bachelor or people listening to your podcast that's that one thing I think, here's the thing. You're beloved universally, but I think the reason why I love you is a lot different than

why the rest of the world loves you. Because I know you differently, I think, than a lot of other people do. And I think that's why people like that one podcast, because they got to see the side that- That Wells knows. Yeah, and Brandy knows. Yeah. You know?

Fair. So anyways, I really appreciate that podcast. Yeah, it's the nights that most people wouldn't ever be able to be involved in where we can drink and sit and talk life and hang out. And not talk life at a deep level, just hang out together and share those moments that people don't usually get with anybody. Right. You know, no matter, you know, your closest friends,

sometimes you don't even get those moments. Yeah. I have one big regret from my time on The Bachelor. Yeah. Is I wish I would have done that more. But I have this weird fear that if I really let myself out, which you both have been around and seen. So like, I know you've seen it and you've still asked me to come hang out with you.

So like, that's a good, that makes me feel comfortable coming in here today. Yeah. But there was this like fear back then and an insecurity where it was like, if I really let myself out, these women won't like me as much as they think they do. Because they'll see the true like weird guy that is just like everybody else. Like The Bachelor to me was like, all right, I got to put on a front. And then it kind of just lasted. I was very conserved.

Reserved, I guess. But I feel like this is probably refreshing for people to hear because i think this is a universal human trait to feel that way i think anyone could relate to that what you just said i mean i do for sure i feel like people definitely have like an idea of who i am and it's like if you you know it's you let them in surface level they're gonna kind of believe that idea but then it's like well if i show who i like show my true colors like who i really am like deep down like are they still gonna think i'm like the cool cyrus kid you know what i mean like i don't know i feel like anybody could relate to that but back to what you did on the bachelor

that's a total false advertisement the thing that they were buying wasn't what you were selling i mean it's like a shell of it i wouldn't call it false advertising i feel like it was like it was like part of the package like because that is you to an extent it was like it's me as a it's me in a lot of the situations that i need to be serious in so the bachelor was me being serious i guess it's just not full picture full picture i don't know if you have the opportunity to show the full picture during that whole thing but for me it was like what you saw there was what would happen if like my wife came home from work or a job and was like i'm super hurt i'm sad we gotta talk i need somebody there for me that's yeah that was the

person on the show it's just a little more serious but i wish i would have lightened it up a bit because i actually think i would have been able to decipher who really liked me and who didn't a little easier through that yeah but that's that's okay. We're doing all right. Yeah, you're fine. Everything happens for a reason, Ben. We're just fine. We're doing just fine. We're doing all right.

I do think, though, that your perfection comes from your imperfections, right? The things that you really fall in love with aren't like the veneered teeth or the amazing hair. It's like the weird bad dad jokes that they tell or whatever. It's the things that make us a little bit different or the things you really fall in love with not the because the beauty and all that stuff that all fades right totally i cannot wait and i hope to

do this in my life is to cultivate places where and this really does because like did come from my insecurities but where i can cultivate environments or just conversations that are completely authentic and genuine and open so that I can learn people's weirdness. I think one of my failures in life and my weaknesses is I'm not able to understand people's weirdnesses as well as I'd like to. So that's maybe one reason why I put up a front too, is because I'm afraid that when you start doing something that I don't understand, I'm not going to be able to process it. And instead of going like, I love you through that, I'll just respond with like, you're just weird. Not that I'll hate you for being weird.

I just don't understand you. You can't relate to it. And so that's one thing now. But I hope to be better at in the next couple years of my life to start to become better at developing authentic relationships and places so that I can get to know people for who they really are and they can know me for who I really am so that I really can see who loves me and who doesn't and who likes me and who doesn't. But that's taken years and that's really deep and we got deep again. Ben can't help himself. Okay. Have you taken the Enneagram test yet? No. I've begged you. I've begged. I think I have, but I don't know what I was. A nine? Is that a

thing? That's what I am. You are not a nine. don't know what i was a nine is that a thing that's what i am you are not a nine a hundred percent is it a nine a feeler peacemaker peacemaker so the whole thing with the nine which is so similar to what we've just talked about is like like i'm a nine through and through and it's like you you like don't want to be like you in your relationships like you want to keep it as less messy as you possibly can because you know like you don't want to like rock the boat or whatever cause waves because you just want everyone to get along and you're like you want people to like you and you just want it to all be okay and then but for me it's like something i read in like in like doing a lot of research about this is it's like sometimes

new relationships that prohibits you from somebody actually knowing you because it's like you're you're acting like this like idea of how you think they want you to act but in reality they want to see the messy you because they can't relate to the perfect you the surface level you where like you're saying the right things and doing the right things but like most of the time people are attracted to the mess because everybody is messing it you know when it comes right down to it does that make sense yeah all right quick psa for those of you out there who rent. If you haven't heard of Bilt, you're about to thank me. Earning points on rent is now a reality when you pay your rent through Bilt. You don't even have to check with your landlord to start earning points that you can

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code your favorite thing do it okay so here's my question for you both and why are we so attracted to celebrities and why has celebrity i think so the celebrity is fading like how cool it was 20 i do too years ago to be a celebrity and people like admired them but why because we just saw their perfection we didn't see their issues maybe not being able to relate was exactly what we were attracted to so i'm a four on the enneagram enneagrams are big like they're really popular he has to take it you got to take it i'm a four which which means at my best he hates this conversation when i'm operating at my best i enjoy authentic things like i enjoy moments where you're really happy or you're really sad and

i enjoy being a part of those so when i walk away i feel like that moment actually mattered so i really desire like meaningful experiences that's what i'm at my best when i'm at my worst and this is something that like i am gonna hopefully be sharing with the world is when i'm at my worst i feel like and I don't, this isn't rare for me. And it was weird for me to take the test and read this because it was like, that's makes complete sense. I feel like the kid doesn't get invited to the birthday party. So he walks past the house and he looks through the window.

Everybody else is inside celebrating and he knows he wasn't welcomed or asked to be there. I feel like that kid, that's when I'm at my worst. So my most unhealthy, the Enneagram helped me realize that when I'm feeling that way, I'm not functioning at a healthy level. Like I'm not at my best. And I never realized that before. Okay. Can we go back to the celeb thing?

Yeah. Because I, well, this is like not talking at all. Here's the thing. Do you guys ever get that twitch in your eye? Yes. Kind of like a month. It's a potassium. Potassium? Potassium. You need potassium.

Potassium? Eat bananas. Potassium. Potassium? Potassium. Potassium. Thank potassium Eat bananas Potassium Potassium Potassium Potassium Thank you No Yes I love having been on this podcast

I am right It's potassium No potassium It's potassium Yes Thank you Ben Okay go back to the celebrity thing Okay so I feel like the reason

People get obsessed with celebrities Is because it's like We've been brainwashed to think that this less than perfect self is not okay. And so you are attracted to celebrity because it's like an escape from the reality of like how you feel. It's like, well, if being imperfect is not okay, then being perfect like all these celebrities is what I am attracted to. It's like you're brainwashed to think that. On Instagram, like Instagram versus reality thing is so popular right now. And people will post one photo of how perfect it looks. And then the second photo, you see like the wider scale of what they're actually doing and it looks

ridiculous. You know what I mean? And so I feel like people are getting, getting more like on board with showing how real things really are. I think people are getting frustrated at this, like perfect picture of how things are supposed to be. Well, okay. So just my thought on this whole thing, the irony of this is not lost on me, but I think that the celebrity started dying when reality TV became a thing because it used to be a celebrity. If you could do something that no one else could really do, if you can throw a ball 70 yards or you can run faster than anybody else, or you can deliver lines like no one else, you can do all these things that no one else can do then you

get paid the most and you are idolized now there's a bunch of people that are for lack of a better term glorified for not doing anything you know like the kim kardashians of the world or if they didn't really do anything i mean yes they started a store or whatever. A store. But they're just known for being known. Yeah. And I think that's why it's falling out, because I used to want to be the quarterback of the 49ers. You know, like, that's, like, Joe Montana was a celebrity to me, you know?

And now when you look at it, you're like, Chloe, or whatever. I'm like, I wouldn't want to be that. I wouldn't want to be followed around by Papa Rossi all the time. Like, all of a sudden, like, the sheen gets pulled off. That looks like that life sucks a little bit. Yeah. You've got to think about how really – I've said this because I've gotten small tastes of it, right?

And I cannot imagine being a 10-year-old. Think about the Justin Biebers of the world. And this kind of goes back to actually understanding people's oddness and weirdness. It's like think about like Justin Bieber should be so messed up. At 10 years old, he is. He is. He's following him. But he should be like even crazier.

Like how does he function in his world? He only knows a world where people follow him around. Like I don't know. Most of my life hasn't been that world. My life today is not that world. My life was that world for six months. Yeah. Like and it drove me up the wall like i i felt uncomfortable i felt objectified i felt confused

i i couldn't like make a move without it being written about and like i you're right like it's that life sucks like nobody wants that i kind of want to walk the fringe like i want to be like don't we all yeah cake eat it yeah exactly like i want to be known for something really good i want to have a legacy that is impactful and meaningful and actually does something and is known like i don't want to just die as somebody that was like yeah he was unknown like he's just a good old kid from warsaw indiana yeah like i want to i want to do something but then i don't want to but I don't but I want to stop it about like where it starts to become known like but that's not how it works it's not so how

do you balance it with uh what what's the saying um with great power comes great responsibility in a sense it's like if you're gonna want that kind of platform you have to is that spider-man yes great great love it uh comics great no but that's true like if you're gonna have this platform and and be and have make make this mark you have to like deal with like the bad side of it too so maybe i'm willing to maybe that's why this whole thing like happens this way but it's just something to still study and i think it's the people that um are really in it that i'm getting a lot more respect for because I know how much it can put a toll on your life and how much it can take away from life.

But then also, in retrospect, how much it can add to life. Like the celebrity, how much it really opens you up to a world that you never would have had if I would have stayed in Warsaw and worked at a bank as a teller. Yeah. You know? Yep. Bank, huh? I don't know.

I thought about it. Did you? Yeah, I've always been interested in in like finance you want to you know what i want to talk about what you know yeti coolers yeah love them love them not that great you don't think no well they're expensive hold on let me get to my point and then we can go into why he have you noticed people driving around with yeti stickers on the back of their car? Yeah. Oh, wow. How do you love Yetis that much?

The only thing I know about this guy is he really loves things that are cold. What's the song about it can buy me a boat and it's like... and something about a Yeti. Yeah. It's insane. It's like in a song. It's a brilliant marketing plan. Totally, but like the things

that you put on the back of your car define who you are, right? It's like the little stick figure thing. This is my family or like baby on board or the school you went to.

Something that defines you. How does a cooler define who you are? It's a lifestyle choice. Yeah. I really love cold beer. Yeah. Pull me over.

I'm probably drunk. I think bumper stickers are so tacky. I would agree with that too. That's a lifestyle choice. Yeah. I really love cold beer. Yeah. Pull me over. I'm probably drunk. I think bumper stickers are so tacky. I would agree with that, too. That's a good point, though. Why would you wear a cooler sticker? Insane. Yeah, it is Yeti coolers that they're representing, right? Not like the Great Divide Yeti beer.

No, it's the cooler brand. It's the cooler or like the cup. My mom had one of the cups today. I love the cups. Don't get me wrong. I have a cooler in the back of my car. It's the cooler. My mom had one of the cups today. I love the cups. Don't get me wrong. I have a cooler in the back of my car. You do? Yes.

But you're not willing to plaster it on your... No. Is there anything you would be willing to plaster on the bumper of your car, though? I've got three stickers on my car. Ooh. You have to remember what kind of car I have. Think about my... My mom loves your car, by the way.

We saw it when we pulled in. Yeah. It's cute, right? It's cute. It's this old, old car. It's this old, like, rustic Toyota four-wheeler. What you got on the back?

One is a Ducks Unlimited sticker. Why is that? Because I love a duck hunt and it's like, it's such a duck hunting car. I didn't know that about you. Yeah. He's an animal killer.

I duck hunt. Do you? You guys. You want to go this year? What do those ducks do to you? What do you do? You want to go dove hunting September 1st?

I hate this conversation. On a happier note, I just got a B6 boarding pass. I could not be more thrilled. Can I just say? B6. Least favorite thing. Southwest Airlines. Oh, I hate it.

I freaking hate it. I hate the cattle call, man. It's awful. No, thank you. But I refuse to pay the extra $15 for early bird check-in. I just refuse. And I never, ever get above B30, and I just did.

Good for you, girl. It's a glorious day. I'm proud of you. It's so weird that, I mean, not really, but Southwest Airlines, I was just at a conference last week, a leadership conference,

and they were being praised on stage for being innovative. I don't understand that. For being customer-friendly. Southwest Airlines has a loyal following. People love them. Love them. Good for them, customer friendly. Like Southwest Airlines has a loyal following. People love them. Like love them. So, I mean, good for them, I guess.

It's not my cup of tea. I just think it takes so much longer to not assign seats because people are like, I do this. Like I walk down the aisle really slow trying to eye the best seat option. And if you just had an assigned seat, you would walk to your seat, put your stuff down and get on the plane and it wouldn't take as long.

Also, it just makes me feel, I don't like hating people around me, but it makes me hate everyone around me because I'm like, I know that you should be behind me, buddy. But you're cutting. No, I know. You're cutting, you motherfucker. It's annoying. You know? I fly Southwest Airlines. You know what I do?

What? I've got issues. I got issues. I do have issues. I wait to be like, I prefer being the last one on the plane. What? Then you have to have a middle seat. Because, time out, because I'm concerned that I'm going to sit down and like

row one, window, leave a ton of room with people, and nobody will ever sit by me. Really? Oh, yeah. What, you want people to sit by you? Well, because I want them to feel like I'm a welcoming place. See, I am the opposite of this. I just must be a magnet. I must just scream, hey, if you really should be taking up two seats,

you should sit in the middle seat beside me. I don't understand what it is. Like, I have headphones on. I look like I don't want to talk to you. I look like I would be a really annoying person to sit next to. And these people just pick me. And there's rows in front of me and behind me and beside me where the middle seat is open and the one by me is not only taken,

but it's a guy who literally is taken. He has the armrest up, which is such a no-no. The armrest is there for a reason. Every time I got up, he would put the armrest up, and he would be like halfway in my seat. And I'm like, why am I being penalized for being a smaller human? I paid for this seat. I should get the full seat.

I agree with you. The armrest is the barrier. I've never had anybody pull the armrest up. You haven't? It is so frustrating. It's awkward. It's terrible.

Someone pulled it up on me. And then he's touching me the whole time and I don't like to be touched and I just hated it. Someone recently pulled the armrest on me and I was like,

put it back down. Sorry, buddy. I need a barrier between me and you. I know. I don't know what's happening. Here's the thing. I couldn't do it because his leg was in the middle on my seat where the armrest goes.

If I put the armrest down, it would have hit his leg. Have you ever sat next to someone on a plane? This just happened to me. I've been thinking about you try to share the armrest. You fight over you do that whole thing. Well, so he and I found a good medium, a happy medium where like we were both kind of had our arm on the armrest. No. Oh, yeah.

But he had super hairy long arms or super hair like long hair on his arms and i could feel when he would move or type on his computer and his arm would shake a little bit i could feel his hair oh no my arm and it was really grossing me out but i i wanted the armrest enough that i didn't move it what is so great about the armrest because i don't care about the armrest oh Oh, what? I'm like, I'd rather not be on it. I'm pretty big. And not be touched, sure, I guess. I don't know what to do with my arms if I don't have it. I like the idea of this standoff that you have with this guy.

Because you weren't giving up the armrest, and he wasn't either. So it was like, who can just wear it? And I'm sure he was like, my hairy arms are going to make me wear it out. And at one point, we just stopped. At one point, we found it and we're like, oh yeah, we did it. We came to the happy place. Did you talk about it? No.

I don't talk to people on planes. But you want to feel so welcoming. I just don't want to be the one guy that I guess I'll take it very personally if I'm the one guy on the plane that never got sat by. Really? I would be thrilled. You have such abandonment issues. You do.

Why? You have complex, Ben. Do we call it abandonment issues? I don't think it's abandonment's the right word. Separation anxiety? No. We got to get down to the bottom. Do you ever get people that write into your podcast?

No, we don't do that. Twitter. Twitter. Yeah, if you could identify this. I just feel like you just have this deep need to be liked. Yeah, why? I don't know. Why?

It's funny because you are so liked. Your parents love the hell out of you, so it's not an issue with your parents. Yeah, I don't know. Let me ask you something. Does it bug you that people tweet? It's the one thing that I see you respond to a lot is the you are boring thing. Oh, yeah, definitely. It drives me crazy.

Yeah, and you always reply to it. Yep. I'll fight it to the death. boring thing. Oh yeah, definitely. It drives me crazy. Yeah, and you always reply to it. Yep. I'll fight it to the death. I know. But going back to like her, we had her dad on yesterday and he had this saying, which is...

Which one? He had a million. The step and shit one. Oh, the more you stomp and shit, the more it stinks. Yeah, like you're not letting it go. This is a great example. I'm so glad you brought this up.

So it's like when haters haters say a step to you, like, if you just leave it alone, then it goes away. But the more you bring it up, stomp in it, whatever, then, like, the worse it gets. Because, like, I would have never known somebody said that about you if you hadn't responded to it, because then I see it. And also, the perception of you is that you are the best Bachelor ever. Like, that's the thing.

Yeah. But it's so funny because you only hear I was boring on an episode like episode 7A. You're very self-deprecating. Yeah. Anyways. I've got some stuff to work through. Well, I know that. I'm doing all right.

I'm doing okay. I'm doing great. I guess the question is like what can we do to help you like realize that you're not boring and that you're great? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think that's like been a lot of my friends like charged like motives the whole life when it comes to my friendship. And I like typically it doesn't affect me like like when we're hanging out with my buddies, like they're not around being like, hey, we love you. is like they're not around being like hey ben we love you but i think it's like what it's like that's my thing like it's the it's like deeper than just not being liked right and i can't identify where it comes from i think it's the same thing that kind of relates just like unlovable like little thing is it's like am i actually like gonna find somebody that could be around me forever and be like you're it like you're my guy you're i'm gonna i'm gonna like i'm just gonna

love you for you and i think until that happens this will always be a thing it actually kind of got fixed for a little bit of my life we don't have to go to details but like when like i was in a happy like functioning relationship like this wasn't a thing because like oh yeah i've been proven wrong great and then as soon as it's not a thing anymore i want to go back to being like no i've been right all along nobody likes me do you think there's any truth though to the whole idea of like can't just expect and i'm not saying someone else to fix you like that's a bad way to say it but like if you can't be okay alone you can't be okay with somebody else like do you think i do you think like you need to learn how to be how to not feel that even when you're not with somebody in order to have a healthy relationship?

It's interesting. I'm really good alone. I'm an only child. I function very well alone. I'm alone often and I enjoy it. And I don't get down on myself when I'm alone. It takes little triggers to get me in a weird place. And they don't happen all the time.

But there's some triggers that really get me in a weird place and so i mean being a good friend just hanging out just doing life together is is really is really great and that fixes me oh can we talk about my house for a second yeah yeah he desperately wants to change the subject well the toilet paper part of my house was interesting to me so i did make sure that there's a roll of toilet paper fresh i was there a whole week and l Lena was basically there the whole time. You stayed at Ben's house? I did. He was kind enough to let me stay there

for the week I was in Denver. Yeah. So sweet. Is he a clean man? His house was spotless. Honestly, I was very impressed. I can see that. It's very organized.

Everything's in its place. Very clean. I try to. It makes me anxious when it's not. Yeah. I can see you being kind of OCD about stuff. Yeah. His bookshelf is pristine. And it's a. Yeah. I can see you being kind of OCD about stuff. Yeah. His bookshelf is pristine.

And it's a small house, so you can't have stuff out of place, or it just feels so cluttered. Even the scary basement, all your clothes are folded very neatly, and it seems like you have a system going. You keep talking about this basement being scary. What is scary about this basement? First of all, you about decapitate yourself every time you walk downstairs, and if I'm doing that, Ben has to be doing that. Oh, I hit my head often.

Yeah. It's a very low ceiling when going down, but it's like dark. It's a 1904 house. So the house is built in 1904. It's a bungalow. It's super old. The basement is six foot ceilings, but it's where my closet is. And so I have all of my clothes and everything down there.

The washing and dryer is down there, which is why I kept going down there. and everything down there. The washing and dryers down there, which is why I kept going down there. It's unfinished, and I've just finished half of it with walls and carpet to make my closet. But what happened when Lauren was living with me, she needs a lot more space than I do when it comes to clothes. And so she had a room upstairs

and then the closet in our bedroom. And I was like, oh, that's fine. She doesn't want to be going downstairs. It is kind of creepy every day. So I'll just do it. Yeah. And so I just haven't moved it up because it's kind of nice to have my clothes away. So that's the creepy basement.

Like old 1904 Denver bungalow. The creepiest part about it, though, is like the cot. It's like this cot in the basement. Cot? Cot like a bed. Oh, like my futon? I'm calling it a cot to be dramatic. I sleep on that sometimes.

See, that's the creepy part is it's like this cot that's like got like a sheet on it and that's it. And it's just like, who sleeps down here? When in the summer, my house isn't air conditioning, so it's hot upstairs. I'll sleep downstairs. That's insane. You don't have air conditioning? No. He has a window unit.

Yeah, just a window unit. I got to go see this thing. But that's common in Denver, which I didn't know. Do you own this place? Yeah. I have for five, yeah, five years.

All right. So Brandy's staying there. She's having to go down to this weird dungeon. Yeah. I like washed all the towels and the sheets and all the things.

She did great to get toilet paper. Yeah. That's where the toilet paper is and all the cleaning supplies are down there too. Yeah. But Ben doesn't use toilet paper.

I remember having this conversation. Last podcast. Yeah. My brother's the same way. I'm great for the environment. Yeah. You are. I help the environment as much as I can.

I try. Oh my goodness. But you used a whole roll. Had to go back down and get a second. Yeah. What are you eating in Denver? A lot of kale. A lot of spinach.

I don't know. A lot of fiber. Yeah. I go at least twice a day. Usually three times a day. Yeah. I'm very healthy. Yeah. That's healthy? Yeah. You're supposed to go after every meal. Yeah. I go at least twice a day, usually three times a day. Yeah. I'm very healthy. Yeah.

That's healthy? Yeah. You're supposed to go after every meal. Yeah. Look it up. That's like a dog does. Yeah. Dogs are really healthy.

Every time I feed my dog, he's like, oh, I got to go take a shit now. Yeah. I love it. If I can't shit twice a day at least, I start to get so much anxiety. I cannot handle it. I can't i love it when we get our talk i have to i like it it gives me anxiety to think like it's all it's like all in there and like i just yeah do you do cleanses no i don't really need to i don't i

always give up though yeah you give up i'm just not i just don't have a lot of dedication in my life for the cleanse yeah because what will happen is that I'll try to do the cleanse and then I'll be like, I need a drink. What's the, um... Then all bets are off once I have a drink. One, because that's not part of the cleanse. And then two, I'll get drunk and be like, Chocos! What?

Well, you know what I love? What? Is if you would cleanse and drink at the same time. Oh my god. That's what my cleansers have been. Which would be no purpose. What's the colon thing they do where they clean out your colon? Oh, I do want to do that. My sister used to do that all the time.

Really? What's it called? Where you take, like, laxatives? There's black coffee enemas. You heard about that? Nope. Never heard of it. Generous is all about it.

Generous. I was about to say. That is a list for generous. So, yeah. You basically just plunge a bunch of freaking black coffee into your butt. That's insane. And then it just makes you just freaking void your bowels like crazy. Can we try it?

Oh, my gosh. So, do you guys want to know about it? You actually would really appreciate this or like this. So, one of my best friends, he's a really good friend of a guy named ed clay who started a hospital in outside tijuana and his thing is he wants to cure cancer and so they have like really advanced like cancer treatments down there because obviously regulations in mexico are a little bit more lax than they are here in the states so my buddy who his affiliation is that like uh he brings musicians there and all the national musicians go

and they play for all these terminally ill patients. And one of their big things is juice cleanses and black coffee enemas. No. And people are curing cancer down there with this.

I always host the benefit every year because they need more money or whatever. So they'll have these people come who are like, I was stage seven, whatever. Doctor gave me three weeks to live i went down there cancer free for the last year and it's like all the crazy stuff they're doing down there and then like shooting coffee with your butt so my buddy went down there and they filmed it you would have they filmed it him doing it no way and he didn't make it to the toilet

well i could see it. I mean, you also have to have someone do it for you. No! It's like Borne. It's like Borne and Paul. And Paul is like, or maybe JP, trying to shove it up his butt. And he's like, I don't think it's in there yet.

He's like, it's in there. He's like, I don't think it's in there. Oh, my God. I want to see this. And then they do the enema and he's like, I think I gotta go. Well, this is the thing. So are you guys going to do each other's?

I don't know. I'm not doing it. I would not feel weird about it at all. That's true. True friendship. If Wells was like, hey, stick some coffee in my butt, I would say... I volunteer as tribute.

I'd do it in a second. So I would say I volunteers tribute. Yeah. I think I'd do it a second. Here's okay. So I asked my, my buddy, who's a doctor, I was talking about juicing and I said, like, what's the benefits? And he looked at me and he's like, he's a really funny guy. And he's like, but he was really serious. He's like, if I ever was diagnosed with a terminal illness or super sick, I would go

completely to a juice diet. Yeah. Like fresh squeezed, like vegetable juice diet. Cause it's, it's like, you'll get everything you need to squeezed, like vegetable juice diet. Cause it's, it's like, you'll get everything you need to function, like to help heal your body. So I get that.

The coffees have never heard of, but I'm getting ready to like, I will, I really want to get healthy and I am healthy, but I really want to get really healthy. I'm at a good stage of my life. I feel good. I'm getting ready to do a liver cleanse.

Oh, what is that? It's crazy. You soak these herbs in vodka and then you take i mean oh my gosh what and you take a shot because the alcohol goes directly to your liver and if you just did it in water your liver would never process it and so you do it in vodka and you take these like shots of it like twice a day or three times a day and it cleanses out your liver and you can actually see your liver like like regrow itself how do you see it yeah

x-rays or something well like i think they do it through like pictures of people like they they after surgery or people have been diagnosed with like liver failure can help like regenerate their liver and stuff like that so kind of crazy but i'm kind of getting into this stuff i think i'm gonna get really weird so like you all know like i i firmly believe in jesus yeah and so like my relationship with jesus is is great but i think it could be better and i don't mean that in some like weird christian term like i think if there if there is a god who actually is relational to me like he actually wants to have a relationship with me in communication and then you see all these monks and these like franciscan priests who like meditate and like isolate themselves and

they come back with this like such confidence and like clarity when it and they're not like hateful and they're not like vengeful they don't have this weird idea of jesus where they're like standing on the corner of the street preaching like some fire and brimstone though they're like very peaceful and they're just like hey you do your thing we're gonna do ours we love jesus all that and i'm like i kind of want to be them or at least want to tap into that so i think i might try this like i've been i've been thinking about this a lot like this weird like like meditation like month where i'll like isolate myself and do like a juice cleanse and just like kind of become like a little monkish is that weird no so one of my best friends mr steve steve lee mr steve music

man yep he's a kid singer in nashville and he's one of the funniest, coolest dudes you'll ever come across. And he went, I think he did it twice. They're meditation retreats. Yeah. Where you go for like a week, and you're not allowed to talk. That'd be so hard for me. You're not allowed to shut the hell up and just go and do your thing. And they'll kick you out if you start talking, if you look at TV or any of this stuff and he came back and he was like i'm completely transformed

huh after it so there's a there's it exists you can go do it yeah i'm kind of into it like i just i just think we don't allow ourselves that time and i think it's really important and i think it's really like super important for me in my relationship with a mystic being like that seems to be the way to tap into i don't know many other ways if i don't like take time to actually get a little mystical so so you start meditating yeah you're gonna do this vodka thing vodka cleanse i'm gonna get weird for a while i'm getting ready to turn 30 yeah i'm in a transition phase of my life i don't know how i feel yet about it but i'm doing it.

Yeah. Going in full steam. Well, we're here for you on the dark side of 30. We support you. How does that go? Do you still feel like a kid ever? I don't want to lose feeling like a kid a little bit. I mean, I definitely don't feel like I'm 31.

Okay. At all. I don't feel like I'm 34. Yeah. I just like, and I don't know if I ever will really feel like an adult the way I should. I don't know. I feel good. I am still as athletic as I ever ever will really feel like an adult the way I should. I don't know. I feel good. I am still as athletic as I ever was, I feel like.

Which was not very. No, I go run. I can run four miles without a problem. He was talking to my dad about how he used to play baseball. I had no idea. Rugby in college. That's such a bro frat boy sport. You so would have.

I was all SEC. I was good. Were you pretty fast? I was really fast. I bro frat boy sport. You so would have. I was all SEC. I was good. Well, you know what? Were you pretty fast? I was really fast. I can see being a sport. I was like a 4'4 guy. Yeah, he's real small.

There's not a whole lot of wind resistance, so probably pretty fast. She can't handle that you're good. And I was good at anything ever in my life. Can't handle it. Her mom's been here and just showering me with compliments. She hates it. This is what Tish does with boys.

This is why I told you Brazen's her favorite. She loves the boys in her life. I think you guys should, on this podcast, race. I just think you should

do a track race. Wells would absolutely win. I'm the worst runner ever. Let's do this. I'll run backwards. For how long? Let's do a 100-yard dash. How far is that?

100 yards. I know, but, like, I don't know how far. Okay. I hate you both. That's amazing. Like, is that, like, a quarter of a mile? Like, can you put it in terms I know? Football field.

Oh, that's pretty far. Okay, you want to do 40-yard dash? No, I'm down with 100. Okay. Okay, that's all I wanted was a football field. I do the same thing often. That's just one of those funny moments where you're like, of course it's 100, but you just ask it and you're like, wait.

That was really tough. I wanted a picture of what it looked like. Ben? Yesterday I was talking to somebody. I was like, wait. That was really tough. I wanted a picture of what it looked like. Ben? Yesterday I was talking to somebody. I was like, I'm not that smart. And they're like, I think you're smart. I'm like, ah, maybe. I was like, well, I think I'm smart.

I'm just not the, and I said something tool in the shed. Smartest tool in the shed? I said the smartest. I said the smartest tool in the shed. And they go, well, it's actually Sharpest. I was like, oh, yeah. Okay, but I feel like there's this whole thing of like you're either book smart or you're street smart kind of thing. Yeah.

Like I'm definitely more book smart, I feel, than street smart. I feel like I'm more street smart. Yeah, for sure. Definitely more street smart. Yeah. You should see me take a test. See, I was a straight A. I get very anxious.

I get like five questions in and all of a sudden I find myself like wandering. Thinking about something else. Yeah, for ten minutes. That's called ADD. Yeah, I struggled bad. I never got diagnosed. I was really heavy. I was medicated my entire life. You don't take anything anymore? I hate it. Really? Hate Ritalin.

Well, Ritalin's like a whole thing. I was doing it before Adderall existed. Well, my brother Trace, Ritalin's like a whole thing. I was doing it before Adderall existed. Well, my brother Trace took Ritalin our entire childhood. I've never told you this story about how it would just subdue me and then I had to take it in the morning and then right

after lunch. So my mom would administer the morning one and then in high school I would be like having to take it myself and my friends would steal it out of my bag. Is it still Ritalin then in high school? Yeah, it's Ritalin. They would steal it out of my bag so I wouldn't take my Ritalin and I'd be like,

and I'd freak out in English class and the teacher would be like, who stole Wes' Ritalin? No way! Yeah, I was super hyperactive. Oh my gosh, Trace was the same way. But you're better now. You grew out of it? I was able to focus it. Focus my energy on the thing that I want to do,

which is yell into a microphone. Right. And you're so good at it. So good at it. Oh, thanks guys. Do you guys want to go eat some tacos? Yeah, sure. All right, new favorite thing right now

is this Quip toothbrush. Who doesn't love clean teeth? Yeah, exactly. But I, totally. Everybody loves clean teeth. I'm such a dork, though. Like, I like the look of the toothbrush. You do.

Yeah, it's electric toothbrush, but it's like the size of a normal toothbrush, and it's like metallic looking. It's kind of dope. Like futuristic looking, if you will. It's like if I were living in the future, this is what my toothbrush would look like. It's incredible. And also, because it's slim, small, and compact, it's easy to travel with, which is great because we both are on the go all the time.

The Quip toothbrush starts at just $25, and if you go to getquip.com slash YFT, which is for your favorite thing right now, you'll get your first refill pack free with a Quip electronic toothbrush. Yeah. One of the coolest things about it, actually, is that they have these subscription plans, and they deliver new brush heads to your door every three months. It's just $5, including free shipping when you do that. And so you don't ever have to get a new toothbrush.

They just supply you with clean brush heads. Have you ever dated somebody that you could tell they hadn't changed out their toothbrush in quite some time? Yeah, it's disgusting. And it's like all the bristles are like... Ew. Like, ah! The colors fade when you're supposed to change it.

And like, whenever I see somebody with a faded toothbrush head, I judge them hard. Exactly. Avoid relationship issues regarding toothbrushes. Get this brush. They'll send you new ones and you won't look like a freak. Your first refill pack free at getquip.com slash YFT. It's spelled G-E-T-Q-U-i-p.com slash y-f-t. Guys, I'm really excited because I've been wanting to have my friend Jamie Tworkowski

on the podcast for a long time, and he's finally here. I'm here. This is the perks of recording in LA is people are actually around that you want to podcast with. Tworkowski? Tworkowski. Tworkowski. Great last name. Favorite new last name.

Can you spell it? Probably T-W-O-R-K-O-W-S-K-I Perfect Yes Whoa I'm such a visual person That if I

I like to write things out I can spell things better But like I was never good At spelling these Because without seeing it As I'd say it It was hard for me to do it But I

Wells is an easier one To spell for sure. Yeah. His last name is Adams. It's kind of pretty easy. Wells Adams. Torkowski. It's good.

Cyrus. Cyrus. Here we are. How long have you known him? A long time. Do we know exactly how long? I feel like. Early in the To Write Love on Her Arms journey.

Like when, what year did you launch To Write Love on Her Arms? 2006. Okay. So I'm going to say like 2007-ish is when we met. I would agree with that. Yeah. Crazy. Launched what?

To write Love Under Arms. We'll let Jamie tell it since it's his little baby. Yeah. So we met through the organization that I started, which was born from a story that I wrote in 2006 and more importantly, an attempt to help a friend who was dealing with the issues that we now speak to as an organization. So my friend Renee, who I met back in Orlando in 2006, was dealing with depression, addiction, self-injury, had attempted suicide, was denied entry into a local treatment center.

And I wrote a story about spending five days with her and getting to know her. And then we started to sell T-shirts as a way to pay for her treatment. And essentially the story took on a life of its own and the t-shirts kind of did the same thing. And we realized we could have this conversation on a bigger scale and we could do more than help one person. And we've been at it ever since. 12 years. It's a long time. Was it a story like in a magazine or on the web? Like where did it live? Yeah. So at first it lived on MySpace. Really? Like where did it live? Yeah.

So at first it lived on MySpace. Really? Yeah. Wow. I miss MySpace. I think technically it still exists. Probably does. Yeah.

It's just quiet. I hope my profile doesn't still exist. Good Lord. I looked. Mine's off now. I had teal highlights in my dark black Ashley Simpson hair. Oh yeah. Yeah. It did.

So I made a MySpace page and posted the story as a blog and it grew from there. And 2006 was really the moment of MySpace becoming mainstream, like part of everyday life. It went out. There was a magazine called Relevant that sent it out as an email blast. So that helped as well. And then some friends in bands started to wear the T-shirt. And that was how it got out in front of people. That's the thing I love about the organization is you've always been so closely tied with music and artists and so like one of my best friends growing up was hayley williams from paramore and she was rocking the shirts when we met like that's how we met actually i feel like

and also the guys in amberland as well but i just love that even to this day i feel like you're you're so tethered with me with musicians and artists and using them to help tell the story and i think that's so cool like with heavy and light you and Light, do you still do the Heavy and Light stuff? Yeah. You played Heavy and Light. I did play one of the Heavy and Lights in LA, San Diego? Anaheim. Anaheim.

Split the difference. Anaheim, split the difference, yeah. I was honored to play it since I've been around since the beginning with you guys. But that's the coolest thing about it to me is also using music and these artists with stories to help get this message out. It's so cool. Think music tells us it's okay to help get this message out is so cool.

Think music tells us it's okay to feel things. It's okay to be honest. You think about going to a show and singing along with lyrics that you believe in. I think a lot of times there's things we can sing that we're not sure if we can say them in conversation. And so we feel like beyond the marketing aspect, there's a lot of common ground with, hey, what does it look like to be honest and to be open about your struggles? That's an interesting idea that it is. It's so true. Like we're okay singing lyrics about how we feel about certain things.

But then to say them out loud to somebody in conversation is a whole other thing. That's so interesting. Well, and the musician is a perfect mouthpiece for talking about that. One, because musicians are known for being the tortured soul or the people that are dealing with those things. And they're also the strong, they have the strength to say the thing that no one else will say. And then, in fact, do it in front of hundreds of thousands of people or whatever. And when you see someone that has courage doing the thing that you can't do in front of all those people, I think it also uplifts them to be like, I can say this or I can sing along to it, you know? Totally. I love that. That's good.

I had a thought about something you said. Oh. Because you were saying things we can sing that are harder to say. And I think the song doesn't talk back. It doesn't follow up. It doesn't say, wow, what are you going to do with that? Or are you going to go see a counselor? Whereas if we say that to a friend over a meal or coffee, there's a vulnerability in that. It doesn't say, wow, what are you going to do with that? Or are you going to go see a counselor? Whereas if we say that to a friend over a meal or coffee, there's a vulnerability in that. Because then it's out there and we give that person the chance to respond. Right. Totally. Kind of explain more of the nuts and bolts of the organization. Because now I understand the genesis of the story and yours as well.

But I want to understand the organization a little bit better. Sure. So the primary thing we do is communicate. We've learned that most people who need help don't get the help they need, sort of for the reasons we're talking about, where so many people struggle, but so many people live with secrets. These are things we keep hidden, keep quiet. So we've learned that even two out of three people who struggle with depression don't get help for it. So it's not as simple as just funding treatment if most people aren't getting the help they need. So kind of our sweet spot and focus is trying to change that number, trying to move people to ask for the help they need, or even short of professional help, to be

honest with a support system, to be honest with people around them. So we got our start on social media and so much of what we continue to do continues to happen on social media. We joke that MySpace has slowed down, but it's, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Tumblr, everywhere else. We get emails from all over the world. We've heard from people in more than a hundred different countries now, post blogs, post stories, post information, do our best to connect people to local resources as well as national hotlines. A lot of that happens within the U.S., but also do our best to be aware of what's happening outside of this country. So the primary thing is communication, but then there are moments, like right now we're in the middle of our World Suicide Prevention Day campaign, and we're

trying to raise $100,000, and all of that money will go to provide counseling scholarships. So that's a moment or this is a moment where it's about trying to help people get the help that they need. So and then, you know, practically speaking, we do a lot online, but we hit the road for a lot of face to face events. We've been a part of the Warped Tour for the last 10 summers. I get a lot of chances to speak at colleges. So many surprising doors have opened. I mean, even being friends with Brandy, just so many things that we never would have written on a whiteboard or orchestrated that just relationally doors that have opened that have allowed us to bring this conversation to so many different groups of people. Well, even like even the movie

being made and you writing the book and everything. I mean, it's crazy to think about where you started and how much it's grown. Totally. So cool. Okay. So you keep talking about like the social media. That's like where people are talking to you. What is the app mentioned? Where do we need to go to?

Yeah. It's just the acronym for the organization. So it's at T-W-L-O-H-A. Sounds like TWLOHA, which stands for to write love on her arms. And then the website is TWLOHA.com. Okay. TWLOHA. Sounds Hawaiian.

It does. It's almost like the Kunimatata thing. I know. So when is World Suicide Prevention Day this year? September 10th. And it falls within National Suicide Prevention Week in America. Awesome. Cool.

Do you think that, I mean, I'm sure there's numbers to support it. Is suicide numbers on the rise or on the decline? Yeah, it is on the rise. There are numbers. There's research. There was a big New York Times article that came out around a year ago that talked about suicide being at a 30-year high in the U.S. And then within different demographics, I believe it was 10 to 17 was one that had spiked up quite a bit. So there's actually in kind of the landing page for this campaign, we focus on a bunch of different numbers, everything

from worldwide, knowing that 800,000 people are lost every year to suicide, to even breaking that down to the LGBT community and different age groups. So yeah, there's a lot of urgency around it because it seems to be something that is not getting better. I'm sure there's no right answer to this, but you're a guy that's obviously working with it a lot. Do you have a theory as to why things are not getting better? I think from what I've read, it's not one reason, but it's a lot of different reasons. I mean, stress, anxiety, finances, obviously even those three things can overlap.

You look around at the headlines every day and it's like, are we going to go to war? Oh, climate change. Like there's so much fear and anxiety from people everywhere. No matter how well your individual life or career might be going, we live in a day where there's a lot of stress and just a lot of pain. And those are maybe the short list of just, you know, stress. Obviously, relationships, breakups are nothing new. But we see oftentimes when it comes to depression or

specifically suicide, just these really painful life moments. And I think now, especially with technology, we live in a world where these things don't turn off. So whatever you're thinking about, whatever you're struggling with, if we're not careful, we live with it all day, every day. You said that 10 to 17 is like where the big spike is coming from. And that's obviously a very transitional moment in a child's life. And then now with these phones that we've got where anyone can be so mean to people on Facebook or whatever, it's just terrifying because I look at like my comments and I am a very confident person. And also, knock on wood, pretty much universally liked. But there's still a lot of mean things that are said about me. And it's crippling.

As a 34-year-old man who's totally fine with who he is and the man he's grown up to be, I can't imagine what that must be like for kids. And I don't know. One of the reasons why we started this podcast is because we wanted to have fun and like having a reason like chit chat but one of the big things was like there's so much negativity out in the world and we were we just want to talk about like what our what we liked because no one's talking about positive things you know having you on bringing a light to how i don't know fucked up everything is. Yeah. Just, I want to remind everyone, please, like, be cool to one another. I know.

Because I don't think people really realize how cutting and how sharp their words can be. Well, that's what's so crazy is, like, it's like, when did it become so okay for people to be so mean to each other? It's because they're not in front of the person. That is, I think that, I swear, it's like, I hate to be the person that's like technology is to blame but like i really do feel like so much of it stems from that and people but like even so like and i know like it's not my generation but like i just can't understand like i won't even go and leave a bad yelp review because i don't like to be that person you know what i mean so i just can't imagine even with no one knowing who it that it who that it's me saying it just like saying such mean things to people like it just blows my mind oh I'm sure the

people that I've said the meanest things to me on social media have also been the same people that come up to me I'm like oh my god I love you so much yeah I don't know but I think that just people just forget that yeah those things and and like it's so funny we just had Ben on and he was the bachelor you met Ben at Tiffany's yeah yeah let's be fair like he was considered he is considered the best the greatest bachelor ever people like just loved him but like his one complaint was that he was boring and it's not that he's boring his one complaint like one person said it and he's like taking it every time someone tweets to him he always responds to it yeah it's the thing that gets him and it's so funny because it's like ben dude everyone loves you like literally everyone loves you but it's like this and it's some no

name anonymous hiding behind a computer screen that gets and ben who is like is universally loved that is messing with them yeah yeah and people don't realize yeah sometimes i feel like the people like i always said like the prettiest girls are the most insecure you know what i mean like for instance she wouldn't care that I'm saying it. My mom, she dropped dead gorgeous. Like, like it's like a running joke that like everybody just loves her. And she is so insecure. Like she, I went shopping with her yesterday and she'd put something on.

I'd be like, oh my gosh, you look so much better in that one. You look great in that. And she's like, I think I have body dysmorphia because I look in the mirror and I think I look terrible in that. Like, it's just so crazy that I don't know that the people that you think have it the most together and you would think are the most confident are really the ones that have the most like insecurities. It's just so wild. It's like, where does it come from? How did this happen? Did you watch 13 reasons why? Yes. I've not seen it. You need to see it. I need to watch it. It's phenomenal. But I would, I know that a lot of the criticism about it was that it almost glorified suicide.

And I liked it because it made me think and I thought it was really well done. But I would love to hear what your opinion about it was. Sure. I wrote a blog in response to the first season. It was something that got a lot of attention and traffic for us. So my best answer is the blog. But I think we and I wanted to be careful because it's one show that got so many different reactions. So some people had a positive experience with the show. It moved them. It reminded them they weren't alone. Maybe it

introduced them to these issues. It made them think. For other people, it was really triggering. It was really dark. they had a painful experience where they had to stop watching and I think we wanted to be sensitive to people on both sides and in between and I think just just tried to tried to say that that I felt like I had some issues and maybe as an organization we felt like there were things they could have done better it definitely could be a triggering show and was a triggering or is a triggering show for some people who struggle. But that doesn't mean that no good can come from it. You know, so I think it's nuanced and it's complex. I do feel like because

I watched both seasons, I feel like they heard and hopefully responded to some of the feedback and even criticism of season one. So yeah, so I had issues with it, but I think it's out there and people watched it. It does seem like the second season wasn't the phenomenon that the first season was. You know, specifically the suicide scene, I think was really painful and really over the top. There are people much smarter than me who have been doing this work for longer, who have come up with guidelines for how they believe suicide should be presented. It seems like ignored some of those guidelines. And then in the second season, it wasn't as dramatic, but I felt like the main character sort of becomes this ghost that hangs around. And I feel like it sort of subconsciously just presents a dangerous message that when you

die by suicide, you don't really go away. You can still stick around with your loved ones. And she almost sticks around to like solve the mystery of her death. And it just felt really dangerous. And I think even in the second season, she's more of a ghost. But in the first season, there's also this element of her trying to get the last word and almost this revenge. And almost you see that when she dies by suicide, she has this power by making these tapes. And so I think there are some dangerous ideas that are presented in that. It doesn't mean nothing good can come from it. I'm thankful that it got people talking about mental health, about suicide specifically. It was definitely wild to see what

a phenomenon it was. Yeah. If people are listening to this that are struggling with depression and mental health, what is the first thing you would like to tell them? I think the first thing would be to let people know that they're not alone. So often when we struggle, we want to isolate and we feel like we're the only one who feels this way or has these thoughts. We're the only one who is stuck or is heartbroken or can't let go of something. So it feels important to start there and then to just encourage people to talk to someone. And a lot of times that starts with hopefully a friend or a family member. But I

think the thing we get the most excited about is professional help. I'm someone who struggles with depression and I see a counselor and my counselor can help me in ways that my friends and family can't because my counselor is trained and experienced and qualified to lead me through this stuff in the same way that if I broke my leg, I'd go to the hospital because they fix broken legs. And if your car is giving you trouble, you go to a mechanic. And just the simple idea that what if we approached mental health that way? So to know that it's okay to put a hand up and say, I need help. And there are people in places all across the country and beyond that want to have those conversations and that really can provide that help.

One of the reasons I was excited to have you on today is because I'd already planned on talking about Kevin Love. You brought this up earlier, but he came out and wrote this whole article and came out and was very honest about his struggles and the fact that he's seeing, getting help and seeing a therapist. And, um, I just think it's, it's one of those things where it goes back to bullying celebs on Instagram or whatever. You think these people are untouchable, right? And it's like, Oh, somebody like Kevin Love, who's got it all. Isn't going to be hurt by the things i say or whatever you know what i mean but i was just so impressed with him um for stepping up and being you know one of the first nba players to really like

be be open and honest about stuff like that and it's been so cool to see that that also and demar came out and said something and now everyone's kind of rallying and saying like i think blake griffin was yesterday was he really i haven't seen that yet but it's just so crazy to think like you know you see this guy on television or whatever he plays for the best team one of the best teams in the league and it was so easy for people to blame him for for their loss or for whatever like you know lebron is untouchable and kairi's so beloved but then to you know be able to throw kevin under the bus and say like well it's his fault and to think you can say that about somebody and that he's not going to hear oh he doesn't watch tv like he doesn't hear it he's not going to read the reviews kind of thing but

he did and he does and like I think for somebody like him to step up and say like that affects me is like a really bold statement and a big move and like I don't know like I'm already such a fan of him but it was just so cool to see him say that. You should read his Players Tribune article. It's really good. I think it's cool. I think everyone needs a superhero, right? And I think that mental health and depression, that's a thing that there's no superhero for that, right?

Like that never was written in like Wolverine doesn't, you know, he doesn't, he's not depressed or whatever. So I think it's really cool that someone like Kevin Love, who is like a real life superhero, you know, gets to like put on that cape for a bunch of people. Dude, we got to, I guess if you really unpacked it, I wonder if people would have some theories about. About that.

You're right. Like was Batman depressed? Like Batman's the superhero for rich kids. Yeah. Like don't like, you can still be pretty cool if you're rich. Spider-man was a superhero for like skinny dudes yeah like nerds nerd like total nerds right the science geek turns into a superhero you're right yeah anyway i just yeah i think like the more um people talk

about put it out in the open that like this is not okay what we say about each other and how we treat each other and how easy it is for us to like say mean things to people we don't even know i think the more it's talked about the closer we're going to get to like overcoming it you know what i mean how does that stuff affect you i feel like i have a front row seat to all of it you know what i mean like i'm not necessarily the target of a lot of it but i see it happen to people i'm so close to i've seen it my whole life and so especially for both of my sisters i think especially Noah, because she's so young. I've seen firsthand how like just even like one comment out of her 500 on Instagram can like cut her to the core. You know what I mean?

It's mind blowing to think people like that don't even know her can say the things they say to her. Like, you know, you're the ugly Cyrus or you'll never be your sister. It's like, who are you to say that to a kid? You know what I mean and it's it got to a point where she just turned her comments off which i was really proud of her for because she knew it was affecting her i don't read my comments like if i see one negative one i stop reading them because i'm like nope i don't need that and i feel like i've been really good about drawing boundaries but i think like for the younger generation that's never known what it's like

to not have that like you don't know how to draw the line. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I just dodged the bullet of like growing up in all of it. You know what I mean? Like I feel like you probably, we all probably feel that way. Yeah.

I definitely didn't grow up in that. Yeah. And just think about it. Like it's different for us because if we post a picture, there will be 200 comments or whatever. And it's some of that stuff gets lost but just a kid i don't know why i keep focusing on instagram but it's it's where i see the most bullying yeah or in twitter but if a kid kid that's got you know 300 friends or whatever there's four comments and

two of them are mean that's they're gonna can you imagine if that was your ratio of a picture you posted yeah 50 was being there's an asshole to you, it would be crushing, you know? I think that people just forget about that. Again, tell everyone where, if they want to reach out and check out your organization, where they go.

Yeah, come to our website. It's twloha.com. TWLOHA on Instagram and Twitter. Doing a bunch of events on the road next month. Cool. Doing some club shows in the Southeast and then some college dates in North Carolina,

Pennsylvania, and Delaware. So there's an online piece. We'd love for people to get invited in the, or involved in the World Suicide Prevention Day campaign. And then we'd love to see people on the road as well. Very cool. Awesome. Thanks, Jamie. Thank you love to see people on the road as well. Very cool. Awesome. Thanks,

Jamie. Thank you guys. Yeah. Bye guys. Bye. Nice. This podcast has been brought to you by podcast nation.