Your Happy Hour - Contracting with Kindness

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Welcome back to Your Happy Hour with Friday Feels!New month, new theme! We dove into the concept of kindness and how we energy exchange, alongside our guest this week, Arthur Atwell - co-founder of many amazing initiatives including Electric Book Works, Bettercare, Book Dash and Paperight - an award-winning experiment in distributed print-on-demand, Arthur shared on the meaning and impact of kindness in our everyday interactions and how our approach to creativity and learning from failures can lead us to different ways of being in the world.How are you contracting, exchanging and being - in kindness - in your world?Friday Feels is all about having those honest conversations, the power of community for personal growth and taking those actionable steps towards being our authentic selves.Thanks for tuning in! Keep it raw and real out there xYHH is produced byswartkat.co - captured viariverside.fm & shared via rss.com.

It's the Friday feels and we're back with your first sip of the weekend. You're now tuned in to this week's episode of your happy hour. I'm your host Nicole Carmine and it's amazing to have you here joining me this week as we uncover the truths about being a human and a working professional. What are you up to this Friday? Well whatever it is, this moment is just for you. Welcome back all you wonderful souls out there tuning in this week for yet another episode of your happy hour and we now in a new month and so that of course means a new theme and this month

we are looking at what it means to be in the world of kindness and more specifically we are looking at how we engage with one another in this way or maybe not. My belief is that we are looking at how we engage with one another in this way. Well, maybe not. My belief is that we are always contracting legally and in the interactions between ourselves personally and in our professional lives. And I think we forced us humans to understand the boundaries of our energy exchangers, so to speak. So if we do decide to contract with kindness,

what does this look like for us as humans and in as working professionals? So to kickstart this theme this week, I am delighted to say hello to a very familiar face who I met on a cool platform called Creative Mornings. And we can talk about that a little bit later. But first, a very big welcome to you Arthur Atwell to the Friday Field Space and your Happy Hour podcast Thank you so much Nicole. Great to be here Well, I know that you're doing some amazing stuff in the world and you're already kind of contracting with kindness in so many ways You're a founder of electric bookworks Beta care one of my favorites, Bookdash,

and also you've got something cool going on called the Digital Minds Network. So for those who don't know you out there, maybe you can just give us a quick little look into your journey and also maybe what this topic means to you, contracting with kindness. Yeah, sure. The journey I'll have to summarize a lot, I started out as a book editor and I've stayed

in books all the time. And now I am first and foremost a book designer. But of course what a book is has changed enormously in many ways and has stayed absolutely the same in many others. And figuring out where that is interesting and useful and powerful and important is what I spend my days doing, which is great. And as you've mentioned, there are a bunch of projects that I've worked on and initiatives I've been a part of over the years that all to some extent come back to this thing of what is the book in the world and what can it do.

I think this topic of contracting with kindness is really interesting to think about. And I started Electric Book Works 19 years ago now. And in fact, this week is our 19th birthday. And the word contracting in one sense means what you mentioned in your intro, that it means hiring people or entering into professional partnerships with them. It also means shrinking to contract. And when you're a business owner,

those two things are essentially the bookends on every chapter in your business. On the one hand, you are contracting people to work for you or with you on something, and that is incredibly exciting when you first do it. And then at the end of a chapter when an initiative doesn't work out, which is more often the case than success,

then you shrink again and you have to let people go and end those relationships, and you shrink again and you have to let people go and end those relationships and that is terrifying and horrible. And once you've done that a few times, every time you contract, whether that means hiring people or whether it means shrinking, it is both terrifying and it's liberating. And once you've been through those cycles,

every time I have to contract, it's terrifying and liberating, and every time I have to contract, I have to contract, it's terrifying and liberating. Every time I have to contract, in the other sense, it's terrifying and liberating. And maybe we can talk a bit more about that. And where kindness plays a role, because that's what lets you do it over and over again and keep your friends.

And keep your businesses going. That's an interesting journey. It is, it is. And thank you for bringing that up. And you know, I think when I think of contracting, and especially in the way that you've mentioned now, what comes to mind is kind of this like the two-hand principle,

like you're giving and receiving at the same time, right? And it's being open to receiving and being open to giving. I think that that's where kindness comes to play because it's very much like what you're putting out there is also coming back to you in so many ways. And that it's an interesting journey when you're a founder, when you're an entrepreneur in that way because I think Simon Sinek said, I think it was him that I read a quote by, that was something like, you know, a leader serves, like you eat last, you know, you often very much not contracting with kindness with

yourself in so many ways. So I do think it kind of starts with the self and as a founder, you creating something, a structure in the world that you then give that culture to, whether it's with kindness or not. So yeah, how's that journey been for you? You've created a lot of different creations in the world. Has that felt like it's been a fair contract or like a fair exchange in some ways in your life?

That's interesting. Sometimes and sometimes not, you know, there's no rule to it. Sometimes things work really well and most times things don't go the way you hoped, but you learn so much more from the failures than you do from the successes. And that's incredibly, incredibly important. The kindness you show to yourself and others is absolutely crucial to just surviving it

emotionally and being able to do it again. Yeah, I don't think I could draw any clear rules or trends over the many years that I've been starting and ending things. Every little project has got its own story, which is absolutely fascinating every time. Yeah, I'm curious. So for you, I know, highlighting just maybe

one of the organizations that you've started, and that is Bookdash that I'm familiar with. You've spread so much beautiful goodness into the world through that. But where did that start for you? Because I do believe when we contract, we always have not to be too legal about it, but there's always kind of a bit of a structure around it. There's always a mission and a vision and a reason. So for you, where did that start in terms of Bookdash?

Bookdash is certainly the happiest of all my venture starting journeys. And as I said, you know, you learn more from the failures and the successes. So Bookdash has been absolutely wonderful, but it was only possible because of all the lessons that I and my co-founders had applied to it from things that hadn't worked out before or hadn't worked quite the way we hoped they would. Bookdash is very much the creation that comes out of the kind of Phoenix from the ashes sort of story.

We started creating Bookdash and by we, my co-founders were my wife, Michelle Matthews and Taran and Anderson. And Taran and I had been working on a startup called Paperright, which was very exciting, where we wanted to make books far more accessible to people. Our vision statement for Paperright was every book within walking distance of every home. And the concept was that there are photocopy shops in every suburb in the world, whether you're in a tiny rural village or a big city. And imagine if those photocopy shops were legally allowed to print out books for their customers.

Now, these aren't beautiful books. They're just, you know, A4 black and white printouts. But for the vast majority of book readers or textbook buyers, that's perfectly fine. And most photocopy shops or their customers are photocopying books illegally anyway. Why don't we actually help them team up with publishers and they can work together

and publishers can charge them a little rights fee. What we worked out is mathematically, the publisher could actually get as much money from every rights deal as they would from an actual book because you're cutting out shipping and printing and warehousing and everything else. And so it was kind of no brainer that this would be amazing. And we ran that, we threw our hearts and souls

into that for five years, had really wonderful support from the then Shuttleworth Foundation. And it didn't work. And there were numerous reasons for that. One of the biggest reasons was that publishers couldn't bring themselves to get over the emotional baggage of thinking that copy shops were their enemy and that they just couldn't see themselves

letting photocopy shops have access to their PDFs, even if they were supposed to pay money for it and so on. And so we couldn't make it sustainable. And that was really hard because Paper Right had got an enormous amount of press, covers of magazines and international awards for innovation and lots of excitement. And so it was a low time.

And one of the things that came out of that was a feeling that we just aren't enough books in the world that are available outside of the traditional publishing system. And if we want there to be an enormous abundance of books in the world, we actually can't depend on existing publishers to give their books away or make their books more accessible.

And that's not really a criticism of those publishers. I, as someone who used to be a book publisher for big companies and have worked with and consulted to many book publishing companies over the years, I understand that when you're trying to run a sustainable business as a book publisher, that's really, really hard. There's very little financial margin

that allows you to take risks. Risk requires having spare money and in publishing there just isn't any. But you're doing this beautiful and important thing and that's just hard for publishers. And so they must do what they do. And we've got to find a different solution to making books super abundant.

And so we thought, what's the simplest thing? Is just make books and give them away, right? And it's so exciting to make a children's book. It's one of the most fun things that a creative person can do. And some of us just do it for fun on the side, or we've got dreams of doing it. But imagine being put in a room for a day

with some of the best bookmaking designers and writers and illustrators in your city, and spending 12 straight hard hours just making a little children's book together. And then someone else goes to all the effort of finding funding and printing that book, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of copies and giving them away to children.

And then you get to a little dashboard that says, here are all the books we've given away. This is where we've given them away all over the country. And it's just the most incredible thrill. And that's what Bookdash is. So Bookdash gathers creative professionals to create these books, children's books in 12 straight hours. We get the best illustrators, writers and designers and editors in a major city that

we can find and create books and give them away. And so far Book Dash has given away, I think we're closing on four and a half, five million books to children around, mostly South Africa. The books are reused by others all over the world in all kinds of languages. Just recently we were sent copies of,

two of our books have been translated into Korean for use in South Korea. Books have been used pretty much everywhere around the world and it's incredibly exciting and gratifying and Bookdash has got an amazing team. So certainly the most fun I've ever had in bookmaking and organization building. Oh wow, that is such an incredible journey. And I know I've heard some of the story before, but every time I listen to you, I get excited again.

And yeah, I think that's just wonderful example to me of contracting with kindness in so many ways, because everyone coming together, giving of their energy, giving of their time with kindness, so that other people can read, so that other little humans can have fun experiencing a story and I think life is stories in so many ways. So that's to me, that to me is so much of essence of this topic that we're talking about. But I know like you said it wasn't always easy, you know, building all these things and it came out of so many moments of I'm sure like feeling like, you know, building all these things and it came out of so many moments of, I'm sure,

like feeling like, you know, where's this going? Do you find that there's something that you go back to in yourself, like if it's something someone said or a mantra or something that you've kind of hold onto in your life that you can share that's helped you through these times? Yeah, I suppose I probably have a collection that I draw on when I need them that I won't be able to remember clearly now because when you're feeling low, sometimes if you're lucky,

somewhere in the back of your mind, your brain reminds you of how you got through this last time and what to do this time. Something that I thought a lot about and in fact spoke about when I was involved with Creative Mornings which you mentioned earlier is that just being creative, the act of being creative is absolutely critical for coming out of a dark patch when you're feeling a bit stuck and you feel like what you've been working on is useless. And by being creative that can mean absolutely anything, just the act of creating things, whether that's woodwork or crochet or painting, building little personal websites or writing

books. Because when you're creative and you're making something new in the world, you're reminding yourself that you can make a difference. And there's something almost indefinable, intangible that happens in your brain that just says, yeah, this is okay, the world is not ending. And often that creativity then leads to the next thing you do.

Maybe not directly, but it starts unlocking doors and starts making you a little bit more interested in the world. So yeah, for me, going back to being creative is really, really critical. We've just come through a pretty tough time in our business at Electric Bookworks. That's the business I run that pays my salary.

And even there, I've had an opportunity to get more involved with the creative side of some of the work we do, rather than just being the manager overseas everything. And the thrill of creativity is just enormous. I think this also speaks to the contracting with kindness theme in that maybe this is different for different people but for me the greatest thrill I get in my professional life is collaborating with people, creating something

together that is just such a ride and to do that that is really, really exciting. And again, it's part of that feedback loop we create for ourselves when we're creative in the world. Yeah, oh, I love that. And I resonate so much with that because as a creative soul, I think we all are. And that's the point that you're making is that we're reminded that I think divinely we are creators. We're here to come and make cool things in

the world, you know, and have a good time. And sometimes we attach so much pressure to that thing that we want to create, that we forget what is the joy in that. And so thank you for reminding us of that. And I agree with you and I find myself also knitting scarves when I really need to release. So I think that's really important and I think being in community, being in collaboration, we forget sometimes how important that is because it's easy to become an island. It's easy to kind of feel like we're very alone in this journey but we're not and we all

kind of going through the same things in different dimensions and ways. So for you if I I'd be remiss to not ask the question, but what does it mean when you feel like you are contracting with kindness and collaborating with other people? Like what is the concept of kindness mean to you in your daily life? Yeah, you know, on the one hand, I think it's kind of strange that we even talk about kindness as a as a thing we can do as a choice we make, right? Because it's kind of strange that we even talk about kindness as a thing we can do, as a choice we make, right? Because it's like saying, hmm, shall I breathe today? I am not sure.

I mean, it's a way of being in the world, I suppose. And it's nice when it gets noticed. My mom doesn't remember, but she said something to me when I was a kid. She quoted someone to me that I should remember now and saying that a, oh now I'm going to get it wrong, something like a just man is just a man. And obviously this was the 80s when we hadn't yet de-gendered our quotes yet, but it stuck with me as a kid because essentially what she was saying is that everyone is just.

To say to someone that's a just person is just the same as saying that's a person, right what she was saying is that everyone is just. To say to someone that's a just person is just the same as saying that's a person, right? Because everyone actually is. And it's the unjust that is abnormal, that can be labeled and puzzled at and figured out. And I feel similarly about kindness. To me it's the default way of being and anything other than that should be Looked at through a theory eyeball and quiz and puzzle that so with that said Sometimes one does need to make conscious decisions about how I'm gonna do that Make sure the way I'm doing this is kind and I think that the most important thing is seeing that there's a person on the other side of the relationship a person with

infinite complexity and depth and their own pressures and their own strengths and their own gaps. And making sure that the fit is right between you, what you need and what they are and what they need. And that can take real work. Obviously when we try to hire a person in the hiring process and we're doing interviews,

for example, or asking people to do tests and so on, Obviously when we try to hire a person in the hiring process and we're doing interviews for example or asking people to do tests and so on, sometimes that could be really devoid of kindness because we're essentially trying to boil people down to this set of boxes that need to be ticked and that it would be so nice I often think instead of having the silly interview to just go walk on the mountain together for three hours. You know, I'd learn so much more about the actual person that I'm looking to work with. And that's about, I think, about kindness, which is understanding that there's a real person there.

That doesn't necessarily mean not holding people to a very high level of professionalism and performance in that role, right? Kindness doesn't mean forgiving people or giving people free passes and so on. When you wanna work with someone, you wanna work with the best person for that role. And this is where fit is so, so important.

By fit I mean, is this the right person and am I the right person to work with them as well? One of the things that I like to remember is that at any professional relationship, usually there's a customer and a vendor, I suppose, a seller and a buyer. And we tend to think that the customer gets to, is just paying this thing called money,

and we're supposed to do whatever the customer needs in order for them to pay us the money. But money is really just a substitute for bartering, right? I mean, wasn't that why money was invented in the first place? Was invented because bartering is just a bit clumsy. But essentially we're all still bartering. The relationship is always an exchange. Whether the exchange in one direction

is coming in the form of money or not is almost beside the point. The point is that we're exchanging something. And if we're gonna exchange something, that feels like a much more an exchange between equals than this weird power dynamic that happens between a buyer and a seller. When we're trying to think how to do these things

with kindness. I suppose my brain immediately goes when thinking about contracting with kindness to hiring freelancers, because that's the thing I do most often and I suspect many of the people who listen to this podcast are probably freelancers, because that's what sort of solo creatives,

solo creatives tend to pay the bills. But it does apply in any kind of transaction to remember that this is a bartering moment between equals and that makes it easier to be and maintain kindness in the exchange. I completely agree and thank you for sharing that. I think it's, I feel the same, you know, it's funny. Someone asked me the other day

when I was talking about this theme being the theme of the month, they were like, where did you come up with this? Like, why did you come up with this theme? And I was like, yeah, I need to think back and remember. I don't remember where and why. But I guess I was thinking about this idea of energy exchange and what does it look like when we are being with another human in that way and being in our words, being equal.

And I think it's really important what you said, understanding that there is a human being on the other side. It's not just someone on paper. And that is where the kindness comes to play. And interestingly, I think we're living in an era where AI is really very much on the forefront. And I'm sure in your industry has a lot to play too, which you can maybe tell us a little bit about. But people are experiencing things like chat GBT as being, you know, this other human, I guess, or being on the other side of the screen. And I think it's quite comical, you know, on the topic of contracting and chatting with another human or being. I think someone was saying the other day, just don't tell Chachi BT like please and thank you, it takes energy and it's like, well, who are we becoming then, you know?

So yeah, how has that played out for you in terms of this topic, but also just in your industry, I think it's quite a relevant thing at the moment. It is interesting, isn't it? It's enormously relevant. Yeah, we'll talk a bit more about it in a second. I think that what I would like to kind of lay as a foundation for the way I think about AI and contracting

is to always respect other people's decisions. Whenever someone else makes a decision, whether it's to use JackTPT or not to use JackTPT, whether to use a particular approach to any piece of work they do for you or not to use JTP, whether to use a particular approach to any piece of work they do for you or not, or whether it's just the way they wanna be in the world. There's no way you could ever know how much has gone into their decision

and what influences have affected them. Even if you're looking across the political divide that makes you frustrated at the world, apolitical divide. Even if you completely disagree with someone you can still respect their decisions as the product of where they are and where they've come in their lives and and of a set of circumstances that you could never understand. So that's the first thing because as soon as we start talking about AI in particular people get pretty opinionated and that's just unfortunate.

So as for please and thank yous with ChatUPD, I totally use please and thank yous. For the same reason I do with humans, right? It's a way of respecting myself as well. You know, it's a way of, please and thank you is a way of signaling to my own brain that I'm grateful. And gratitude is just so, so powerful and important.

And yeah, we use please and thank you for humans. It's's also waste of energy there, right, but we still do it Because that keeps us human It's not always for the other person or the other robot as it were The other thing is who cares honestly the amounts of energy we're spending. I read a very provocative investigations of article the other day about the amount of energy that a chat GPT chat actually uses and how people shouldn't worry so much about it. And whether or not you agree with that is beside the point. The point is that respect other people's decisions and for me when I'm trying to think okay I'm supposed to respect this person's

decision they're making me furious what am I gonna do to think, okay, I'm supposed to respect this person's decision, they're making me furious, what am I gonna do about that and why am I gonna act? What I fall back on is, am I being net good for the world? Are they being net good for the world? I can't really know everything that goes into the decisions but is the world overall at the end of the day a better place for what that person does in it? Great, that's awesome.

Then they must pick their own, pick their path because that's the most any of us can ask of ourselves, right? There's just no way we can all do the right thing all the time every day or know what the right thing is. Just try for net good and that's the best we can do. And assume that the other person is trying for net good as well and figure it out from there. I love that, I love that.

That's a really awesome term to keep in mind. Net good, I've never really thought about that, I love that. That's a really awesome term to keep in mind and net good I've never really thought about that. So thank you and true, you know, I think it's there's no right or wrong really we all just being here having experience and And it's it's yeah, it's silly at times. It's sad at times full of anger times and that's okay Yeah, I'm certainly not saying one shouldn't have strong opinions. I think it's important to have strong opinions. What can be a danger is assuming

the other person is stupid. That's always a bad assumption. Or assuming the other person is not seeing the obvious. It's that ends the conversation in your brain that you probably wanna keep having to better understand that person in the world. Yeah, 100%. You know, I think it's a concept of having walked in someone's shoes and someone was

saying the other day, like, you probably would end up in exactly the same position if you've walked in those person's shoes, you know, so you don't know. And you'll never understand their shoes, right? There's way too much that's gone into who they are. I love that I agree with you. I feel like it feels weird not to say please and thank you because the concept of gratitude is so important and it does create a wonderful energy around us that we all can share. And so actually on that topic, I did want to give a quick little shout out of gratitude

to the other spaces that make this possible for us to share these conversations. So to Riverside FM and RSS.com, thank you, you guys, that we can capture this great sound and we wouldn't be able to do that without you as our audio tech collaborators in this space. And so if you are a keen content creator, podcaster, live streamer of sorts, or you just want to capture your meetings in a more efficient way, do check out Riverside FM. If you're keen to distribute some stuff into the world for cool ears to be hearing your message, then check out rss.com.

Thanks to you guys again. They've graciously given our audience a discount code. You're welcome to reach out to us on the socials at fridayfield.co and we will send that to you. So on that I want to quickly slide into a little shout out as well Arthur, which is how we met. And so the shout out is the people, places and spaces that we feel have the feels in the world. And so this week's shout out goes to Creative Mornings. I think it's pretty apt and fit because that's how I came to know you. I was a copywriter at the time for Creative Mornings in Cape Town and you were a speaker coming on and it was just yeah just wonderful to hear your message

then. It's wonderful to hear your message today and yeah they're just doing amazing stuff. If you haven't checked out Creative Mornings it's a really cool platform globally. They're in a lot of different cities. So check out the chapter in your city. So, for example, Creative Mornings Cape Town, there's a theme every month. Sorry, every month, every month that is global. So, you know, wherever you are in the world, if you go into Creative Mornings chapter talk, someone else in the world somewhere is having a similar talk on the same theme, obviously in their own local

experience. So that's really, really cool. So thanks to them for bringing cool feels to the world. And it was such a pleasure that I could meet you through them. So yeah, I thought it was a good shout out. And then I'm still on the topic of gratitude. I wanted to do a little segment on gems, which is us kind of sharing like what has been good for the week or maybe not. Maybe it's just been a learning, which has been good too. So I'll start and share mine and you're welcome to share yours if you want. But this week has really been a lot about me surrendering, learning about surrendering

and letting go. Not always the easiest thing but it's been really learning how to let go and then tune into the rhythm of my own heart which takes a lot of silence and sometimes as we're talking about kindness sometimes that means really re-looking at the contract you have with yourself with kindness and how you are managing your life and your boundaries and your energy. And yeah, just saying, okay,

this is what's good for me right now. I have to honor that. So, yeah, sometimes that just means a bit of quiet and that's the best thing. So that's what my week's been about. That was my gym. What was yours? Your goodness. Yeah, it's been quite a time.

I think that, so last week in our team, we finished the production of a new book. So what we do at Electric Bookworks is we are the publishing sort of product design, editing design layout, and web production team for institutions that want to publish books for strategic reasons usually. And we've been working with a team called Accounting Streams, which is a new nonprofit based in the UK that's trying to change the way that accounting

is taught. Now, for anyone who's not already into accounting, that must seem a little dull. However, if you've run a business for 19 years, accounting becomes fascinating for one. And the other is that the particular author team behind this book is just so fabulous and so interesting. And what this team have done is they have absolutely shattered, for the first time in my 30, almost 30 years in publishing, shattered a principle that I've held for 30 years,

which is that I've always said there is absolutely no way it is possible to write and publish a book, especially a book of textbook complexity, like a big book, collaboratively with collaborators all around the world in under a year. It just can't be done. And so whenever anyone asked me, I would say, no, it can't be done. And blow me down, this team, combined with our team at Electric Book Works,

has managed to design, write, and publish an entire accounting textbook in under a year, which is astonishing. And on the one hand, I'm quite disappointed, because now I can never tell that, say to anyone again, that can't be done. And why am I so excited about an accounting textbook? And again, forgive me for sounding so strange,

but this textbook completely turns on its head, everyone, like your ideas of what it is to learn to be an accountant and the importance of being a responsible, environmentally aware, accountable accountant in the world today. It's just opened my eyes to a side of of the world that that I'm so glad to

have seen. So there's a strange one, a creative being completely in love with a team of accountants. It's marvelous. I love that. I love that. And I can't wait to see that out in the world. I can totally resonate with that having studied accounting and I've been in that field for a long time. So now being a creative, accounting is such a cool space to be in, I think really very much now with things changing a lot. So yeah that's amazing and yeah I can also

really appreciate making a book, It takes a really long time. So yeah, as I like to say, bookmaking is mostly in terms of the amount of time you spend on it, the work of removing mistakes, because in a book of 100,000 words, that's 100,000 things that can go wrong. And that's possibly the most complex product a person or a team can create,

but also makes it immensely satisfying. Well, you have such passion for what you do, which is amazing. And for anyone else who's listening out there, I wonder kind of what are you feeling about, well, the topic contracting with kindness and how you go about that doing with yourself or other people in the world. And also feel free to reach out to Arthur. If you're in the bookmaking process or in the publishing process or keen to learn more a little bit about Book Dash or Electric Bookworks and all the other cool stuff he's got going on, we'll put your details in the socials and people can connect with you. And then I did have one more question

for you. And that is actually very much in your field we've got a segment called the stack and that is like our reading list and Yeah, just something that you might have on the pile that you want to read And so I want to ask you what is in your stack that you can share with the audience You're having to pick one is tough I think if you don't know it already and are in the world of design, whether it's books or otherwise, you absolutely have to read

The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman. Say that that is absolutely indispensable reading for anyone who's in the world of design. So I'll put that on the stack. I need to reread it. I haven't read it in 10 or 15 years and it's probably worth reading again. So it's on my past stack and my future stack.

That sounds great. Thank you. We'll definitely be adding that to the stack and it's on our website. So if anyone wants to navigate there and find some cool books that are recommended on here, the list is growing and I'm also now starting to work my way through them. So I'll check that one out. Thank you so much. Yeah, and just for coming on today for sharing and for sharing your kindness and having a cool conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for opening a space for talking about these things that's

in the world of business and it's not often a conscious topic of discussion. So great to give it its space. If you haven't just yet follow Friday Feels on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and LinkedIn. You can share with us all your feels this week by tagging us at fridayfeels.co and you can also find the website at that handle. And now as you ease into this weekend, take a moment celebrate who you've become, what you've overcome and what is yet to come as you do the crazy and cool things that you do as the authentic you. You know the truth about life and work is that it's hard but the beauty is this global working experience that you're in while we are in it together. So keep connecting, empowering

and inspiring this week and of course keep it raw and real. Until next time.