Your Next Move - Building a Company for the Next Generation

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Today’s episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between Bea Dixon and Tim Brown. Tim is the co-founder and co-CEO of AllBirds -- a mission-driven clothing brand focusing on innovating around sustainable materials.  In their conversation, they cover Tim’s evolution from professional soccer player to entrepreneur and how to build a strong team.

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audio edition, produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between Bea Dixon and Tim Brown. Tim is the co-founder and co-CEO of Allbirds, a mission-driven clothing brand focusing on innovating around sustainable materials. In their conversation, they cover Tim's evolution from professional soccer player to entrepreneur and how to build a strong team. And now here is Bea's conversation with Tim Brown. Enjoy. Tim, I'm so excited to hear your story, man. Welcome to your next move. How are you doing? Good, really good. Thank you for having us. It's a real privilege.

Oh, man, I'm grateful for you to be here. And look, I have to tell you, I have on the R&R sweatsuit from Allbirds and the tree dashers. And I'm grateful because I feel like I'm walking around in house shoes and pajamas. And with that hat, it's just all working. So that's great. Put it all together.

No, I appreciate it and appreciate it and excited to sort of tell you the story of how those things came to be. I'm grateful. So I kind of, I want to start off, you know, your journey has been incredible, right? And since the beginning, your mission has been all about purpose, culture, sustainability. You know, you were a pro soccer player. You decided to leave there. Then you went to attend business school. Then you started your company. Like, tell me about how all of these things kind of transpired because you've had a really remarkable life and your upbringing in New Zealand. Let's not forget about that. Well, maybe that's the most important thing and maybe the place to start. Yeah, I grew up in New Zealand and it's a place that's very dear to

my heart and in many ways is infused quite deeply in the DNA of Allbirds and where ultimately I started, you know, the path to create the business. I grew up there. I left America to come here on a soccer scholarship and got the gift of an education, a design education and a sporting experience at the University of Cincinnati and ended up having about a decade-long career playing professional sport that took me to the World Cup in 2010 with New Zealand which was really special and along the way I kind of one of the best things about playing sport at a high level is you get lots of free gear yeah and um and you know I started to see that it was logoed and made from

plastic a lot of the times and synthetic materials and started really a curiosity to try and understand if there was a different way of doing it and really had no idea. I was still playing sport. I was very focused on that, but this really, the whole journey began as a curiosity project back in New Zealand with no sense of maybe what it would become. Can you tell us a little bit about your mission, the mission of Allbirds? Because I feel like what you were just talking about really informed that mission. It wasn't immediately clear at the beginning and that was a problem.

You know, I mean, even on my sporting journey, like I always love soccer. I've got to say football. I've got to say football. Sorry. I always love football. I've got to say it. I'll get in trouble otherwise. I always loved it.

You know, I grew up playing it and I was fortunate enough to play it professionally and then I kind of got there and it was I was living a dream but at the same time maybe sort of wondering what it all meant and I got a taste of playing for New Zealand for my country and I saw the impact that could have on my community and what it meant to my family and so there was the sense of sort of the role of purpose in going after things and then this journey to take new zealand to the world cup it hadn't take it hadn't happened since 1982 and it was this big dream but it was it was about something larger than just yourself and and then with all birds we started making shoes i started with my brother and one of my friends in the early days we went through like hundreds of

uh versions of this thing got told by a lot of people it couldn't be done knew nothing about how to make shoes found a factory on the internet did like every mistake you could probably like every dumb thing and sort of then started to you know launched it on a kickstarter and it started to work and i had this moment where i'm like well i'm making shoes but why am i doing that you know what i didn't dream of making shoes i didn't grow up on a sheep farm as good as that would be for the story. So what's the larger thing? And I met my co-founder, Joey, who had an understanding that the world was changing and that climate change was the problem of our generation and that we needed to find more sustainable ways to make

the things we use every day. And that unlocked that. And I kind of didn't look back from that moment. Yeah, that's incredible. And how'd you come up with the name Allbirds? Well, again, it's a nod to New Zealand. When people first came to New Zealand, there was nothing there but birds, no mammals. So it's a nod to the provenance of where we started this whole thing. And also the idea too, that when the birds are okay, their environment is okay. And, you know, that's been our purpose and our mission from the beginning. So it's just a little nod to that.

Your passion for sustainability, especially, you know, you already have that passion, but when you brought in your co-founder, it kind of just like locked it in because you guys were really aligned. Was that what made, you know, at what point did you guys decide to become a B Corp? And then would you say that you needed and like was becoming a B Corp just a part of the, a part of what you guys decided the process would need to be once you got the company started? Did that come from you or did that come from your co-founder or did it just make sense?

I mean, to be really clear, like I, you know, I think no one doesn't grow up in New Zealand without an empathy for the environment, but to be really clear, like sustainability is a purpose and something that I really wanted to devote a huge part of my career and my life towards solving was not immediately clear to me until I met Joey. I'd had through my experience in sport an understanding of how purpose can fuel performance and can make, you know, going after really complicated things really mean something. But it really took Joey to kind of unlock that as the true North Star of the business. And when we founded Allbirds together in san francisco in

2015 i'd retired from sport had gone off to business school worked on the idea a little bit we'd sort of gone through a kickstarter campaign and the b corp status was just the way to it wasn't even a thing we thought about it was just a way to enshrine our purpose in the governance of the company make it a non-negotiable if both of us sort of disappeared for any reason and make it kind of part of the charter of why we're doing things. And as we went out to raise money and build the business, no one's really questioning it. I think it's a testament to maybe how far we've come that B Corp is, while still new, even on the public company stage, there's not that many. I think it's just become a very acceptable and in a positive

way sort of term for understanding that business stands for something more than just shareholders. It's about stakeholders, the community. It's about doing something. Business can be a true force for good. The businesses we do have an impact on everything, right? They have an impact on life, on the planet, on people's bodies that wear it. So, you know, I think the responsibility that you and your partner made to actually like make that the mission and the sole purpose of your company, I think that that speaks volumes because it's important. Yeah, it is important, but it's also forward-looking, you know, business can innovate, it can invest, it can create, it can

solve problems like government and individual citizens always have a role to play. But I think business as a force for good can be such an offensive weapon for bringing about real change. And I think we found that with Allbirds and not just Allbirds, a whole community of businesses now that are tackling sustainability in really meaningful ways that business has got a real role to play. And I think that transition, that awakening has been a really powerful one. And we're just still in the early stages of realizing what it can do and what it can be. It's beautiful. And look, we've applied to be a B Corp. It is not an easy, it is not an easy process, but I think it's dope that they make it that way because it shouldn't just be an easy process. Well, it's imperfect. I mean, how do you compare a media

organization with a manufacturer of footwear and apparel to a corner store, to an advertising agency, one that's in New Zealand? At the end of the day, you know, these things are imperfect, but they're moving things forward. They're moving the conversation forward. It shouldn't be easy. You should have to do some work, but that forces reflection. It forces improvement. It forces you to think creatively.

I mean, similarly for us, with the carbon number and the labeling of the footprint of the individual products that we make, again, that's, we've had to kind of make those rules up. And sometimes you just got to do that. You got to kind of, you can't wait. You just got to go. And I feel like that's an example of doing that. I love that you put the carbon footprint on all of your apparel. I love that. And can you tell me about that? Is it the lower the number, the better? Yeah, look, I mean, at the end of the day, all the products and services that we use, we need to make them with as close to zero impact as possible. Everything that we consume, use, has effectively a carbon footprint. You as an individual have a carbon footprint. Inc. Magazine has a carbon footprint. Allbirds does. New Zealand

does. America does. And it all ladders up to a global number that we need to reduce. And it was a big lightning bolt for us at Allbirds when we realized that you could actually sort of take that huge number, break it down as a company, and then break it down on the individual product level, and then innovate against it. We bonus our executives against performance around lowering the carbon number. Every product is labeled with it. We bonus our executives against performance around lowering the carbon number. Every product is labeled with it. And at the end of the day, in the same way that calories are on food, it starts to become another communication to the consumer about the work that's been done behind the scenes. So we believe it's a really exciting part of the future conversation around

sustainability, that carbon is really the North star for how we hold all the various complicated different parts of our society and our world together and hold them accountable to the same scorecard. And we recently did a partnership with Adidas that kind of really tried to accelerate the idea of people working together to lower that number. So it's a really exciting moment. It is. I can understand that because in a lot of ways, you're kind of teaching the future how to do it. You guys are leading by example. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, you know, and it's not just us, but I mean, traditionally when you've made a product, you've thought about what it looks like, what it costs and maybe the utility of it. And now we're introducing this fourth variable around carbon that is starting to change the form and the packaging

and the weight and the consideration of the creation of the product. And it's a really exciting moment. Oftentimes, and for good reason, the conversation around sustainability is all the things you should do less of. But it can also be about creation and innovation. And I think that's the moment we're in where we have to move faster. And the carbon accountability and scorecard becomes a real sort of scorecard and a way of actually doing that in a meaningful way beyond just, hey, I'm trying really hard.

Right. Because you're putting your money where your mouth is. So would you say, not even your money, you're putting your time, your effort, you know, I mean, it's incredible because there's so much, I've used this word a lot, but there's just so much responsibility to the planet in actually taking that leap. Like, I'm in business, so I know how hard it is to be committed to a cause to that level. You know what I mean? It doesn't, it actually requires sometimes even more of an investment than what people

may think. Totally. Yeah, it's hard. Make no mistake. But it's the future of how we're going to create the products and services we use. We're convinced of that. You know, everything has a number. we're going to create the products and services we use. We're convinced of that. Everything has a number. We released a product with Adidas that was 2.94 kilograms of carbon. A hamburger is about

less than half a hamburger. When you get on a plane and fly return from New York to San Francisco, it's 2,000 kilograms approximately. So every action thing we do, everything we consume is part of our overall number. And increasingly, we believe that's going to be the scorecard for how we measure impact, which is not to say in the same way that with calories that you don't want to have a hamburger sometime where you want the best food. You just got to understand the balance and the puts and takes of all the different ways that you consume and eat. And I think the same thing is coming to products. And we feel like we're trying to go first and really make up the rules and sort of show people how that can be done to make better products and to tell the story to people who are craving, I think, clarity on the best way to act.

That's incredible. Would you say that that is your defining moment? And if it's not, can you tell us about what the most defining moment of all birds were on your journey? Oh, there's so many. I mean, I think just starting, I think I've found a lot of people talk about starting things and building businesses and to actually go and do it was really difficult. And I'm proud of starting. And as simple as that may sound, and obviously, you know, I can't overlook the power of meeting Joey

and the partnership, the difference, like culturally in terms of education, experience, all the different things that kind of came together to have a partner to do this was, I mean, all birds wouldn't have happened without that. You know, and then you go, hey, when Barack Obama wore the shoes or Jacinda Ardern wore the shoes, or we met Leonardo DiCaprio or Emma Watson, there's all these things along the way that kind of just give you a little nudge to sort of say, okay, we kind of, we keep going,

we're on the right track here. So it's been a really special journey, but I believe we're only just starting it. Speaking of starting, Adam Sutton wanted to ask you, this is an audience question, what gave you the courage to make the leap on your own before you found your co-founder? You know, I didn't, Adam, like, I had studied design and found myself playing sport. And I started this as a curiosity project to fill time a little bit so that I wasn't, you know, just playing PlayStation in the afternoon. So it was really born from curiosity. And I think if there's one word to, you know, that I think embodies all birds, it's that, you know, everyone out there with an idea or a sketchbook

or, you know, who's in an idea or a sketchbook or you know who's in between jobs or at a job they don't want don't ever undervalue the thoughts and the ideas and the observations you have they can be the start of big things and that certainly was the case with all birds and you know i started selling them to my teammates who were getting all sorts of free gear and largely just made fun of me but it became this thing I worked on I took my holidays in the off season and started to go into footwear factories from the beginning so it really was it was about curiosity and and just sort of starting and and as I retired from sport and went off to school I kind of couldn't get another job so it wasn't like

I was choosing from a menu of all these different options. It kind of became out of necessity. And so I launched it on Kickstarter and kind of the rest is a little bit of history. So you famously made your investment in technology and material innovation open source. Was it scary for you to make that decision? Not really. I mean, again, we didn't just do it because we're good guys. I think we did it because there was a real business opportunity to do so. We wanted to make EVA as one of the most commonly used materials in footwear and sneakers. It's in kind of like every pair of trainers or shoes that you wear yet, but it's largely made from petroleum derived materials. And we had an

idea largely on the back of Joey's previous career to work with a green energy company in Brazil called Braskem to do it differently. But we were tiny. I think we had like six employees at the time. So we mocked up a cover of the Wall Street Journal and we went down and saw this big company. We sort of said, hey, don't just do this for us, do this for the entire industry and let's make it open source. We're not trying to, we knew that the more people that used it, making it from sugarcane, the byproducts of the production of sugarcane made the material kind of carbon negative in its raw form. So the more people that used it, the better it was for the environment. But we also negotiated the ability for the cost to come down as that scale grew. So it was an example,

I think, of purpose and profit not being in competition, working together to create new types of business models and new ways of working. And there's now north of 100 companies globally that are either using or in the process of using it. And that's become a big business for that company. And we don't do that every time. But in that particular case, I mean, and the partnership with Adidas is another example of a non-traditional way of working where you two competitors came together to see if they could kind of crack a problem faster than they could individually. And I think this moment that we're in, this existential crisis around climate change, everything should be on the table in terms of what we need to do to drive this thing forward. So your decision to not make that about competition, right? Because most of us have been, especially most of us entrepreneurs, have been conditioned to kind of keep our secret sauce to ourself, right? I feel like what you all are doing with, you know, with sharing this technology is really powerful. How would you encourage other

entrepreneurs, because it can happen to any business, right? You can figure out something that can be innovative for the entire industry. How would you encourage other entrepreneurs to do the same thing, to not necessarily hold on to something that could benefit the world, the earth, the planet, right? Every situation will be different, you know, I mean, and every business will be different. I just think the core message is that purpose and profit don't necessarily have to be in competition. We can rethink, in fact, we need to rethink the rules of how we engage and how we create. And in the case of the sweet foam, you know, we're able to lower our costs by making it open source and do more good in the process. And I think it speaks to the power of purpose as a sort

of a driver of innovation and of risk-taking and creativity. But also, it speaks to the moment we're in where categories, industries, every business, if they're not thinking about it, they should be or they're trying to. It's being upended. We're in the early chapters of a sustainable revolution where I think everything is going to need to be rethought. And it's full of entrepreneurial opportunities. And so I just think that you want to run a profitable business. You want to grow and be really successful. But I think if you're not thinking in terms of the context of this massive change to the way that we live, then you're missing a huge opportunity. So I think you need to adjust the mindset in terms of how you think about the problem. I agree. I have another audience question for you from Christy Talley.

She wants to know, are there opportunities for solopreneurs to become involved in the shoe industry? Oh, sure. If we're an example of anything, it's that. I literally had studied graphic design at the University of Cincinnati and was playing soccer and had not really a lot of knowledge in the footwear space, but I got really curious about it and I found a factory on Google and I went out to sort of uncover the solution to a problem using materials and wool that had been overlooked by the category. Now we spoke to so many different industry experts that told me, hey stop, told Joey and I that we didn't know what we were doing and we kept going. It's not to say it's easy, I mean it was probably circa 2007 before when we started working on this and 2015 or March 1st, 2016,

when Allbirds was launched. But I'm firmly of the conviction that if you work hard at something for long enough and you care deeply enough about it, you'll be able to work it out. And so I think that, sure. And so I think the world's full of problems worth solving and if you feel it's in shoes or if you feel that it's wherever it is I sort of think it's a real privilege to be able to kind of work on that and but it's hard it's really really hard and you're going to have to kind of overcome a lot of naysayers and a lot of challenges along the way and that's startup life right oh yeah I mean totally yeah totally, totally, yeah. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah.

Because, you know, when humans who, especially when you first get started in business, when we think about everything that we interact with all day, every day, everything is really a will that's been recreated. I loved her question because I thought, I don't know, I think it's nice when people realize that they can really put their, whenever you put your mind to it, it's what you can do. If you want it bad enough and you feel it and you're prepared to kind of go through the washing machine of kind of working it out. I mean, it's entirely possible. And, you know, does the world need another pair of shoes? You know, yeah, they need, of course, every category in industry, there's always opportunities. And it's often the experts and the people that know the most

that overlook a new way of doing things. So yeah, I think we're a testament at Allbirds to the idea that's possible for sure, no question. Were you ever fearful about the big guys coming in and copycatting what Allbirds was doing? Not so much fearful. I mean, I'm fearful for sure about lots of things. I mean, I think that's part of the kind of the journey of building a business. But, you know, the copycats, like in many ways, we've had a lot of them through the first five or so years of being in business and

always sort of taking them as a compliment. But it's a challenge. You know, you're competing, you're trying to make a better product, a better and everything's on the table but you know i think what you understand is that for legacy industries and big established companies they do some things extraordinarily well but in the case of sort of sustainability they're trying to shift a metaphorical oil tanker kind of around and change the way that things have been done in some cases for for years and decades and that new startups freed from knowing too much and from rules and processes can move really really fast and i think that's what we found we you know natural materials had been overlooked by the category. And the default was using cheaply, widely available synthetic materials.

And so it was harder. And we had to work harder and find a factory that believed in us and do all sorts of different things. But that opportunity existed. And so, you know, I just would encourage anyone who feels like they want to have a crack at it. It can be extraordinarily rewarding. Especially when you're small, you can be a lot more nimble. You can move a lot quicker. You can innovate faster. And I think Allbirds shows that. Like your guys' innovation is crazy. That's the engine that drives this, natural material innovation. It's been there from the beginning and it started with, you know,

there's lots of sheep in New Zealand and started with like this legacy industry that had been around for a long time but was crying out for innovation. That was the starting point for this. And I think peak sheep in New Zealand was 1980, and they had like sort of 100 million sheep, and now there's like less than 25, and no young kid is growing up in New Zealand wanting to be a sheep farmer. So the opportunity to kind of innovate in that material was sort of,

I think, a turnaround opportunity for this incredible material that's a part of New Zealand's culture and history and has some incredible properties. And then we moved to eucalyptus fiber and sweet foam that we talked about. And it's the engine that drives our product creation. And we're working out how to do it, I think, better than most. And it's a huge opportunity for us as a business moving forward. We're going to take a quick break and be back with more from Bea and Tim. Here's a little tip for growing your business. Get the VentureX Business Card from Capital One and earn unlimited double miles on every purchase.

Plus, the VentureX business card has no preset spending limit, so your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs. And when you travel, you'll have access to over 1,300 airport lounges. Just imagine where the VentureX business card from Capital One can take your business. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureXBusiness. What did you Google when you first got started? And like, and how did you figure out how to start using these materials? Was it because your co-founder was kind of in that type of a business? Like, how do you start to even begin to do that? You know, you just don't know what you don't know.

Like, if I could go back in time, I would sort of say to myself, like, whoa, you really don't know enough about this. And, you know, but you just work it out. And, like, I literally found a factory on Google and emailed a bunch of folks and went and visited one. I was like, oh, my God, this is so antiquated in the way shoes are made and look at the materials. And I remember reading a magazine one day in my apartment in Wellington and saw this decline of the wool industry and this opportunity for material innovation that led to like an R&D grant in the very early days while I was still playing that turned wool into the first ever material for footwear. So there was all these things, you know, if you just start to connect the dots. I had no business plan out of the gate.

It was, again, it was fueled by the benefit of a little bit of time in my context. And that's important. Not everyone has that. But I was enjoying myself and I was trying to solve a problem that was my own. And it turned out along the way, you know, that it was a problem that a lot of other people wanted to engage with. And, you know, I think it's interesting.

I sort of any idea in its early stages, Beatrice has got to seek feedback. You know, like if you don't seek feedback, even in your life, you kind of I think you're dumb. But if you're listening to all of it you might be even more dumb it's all about filtering it and and finding your own path forward to kind of navigate through these roadblocks and just kind of ultimately listen and and tune your approach so that you you try not to do too many dumb things but at the end of the day sort of follow your path because you believe in something and you want to do it and and so i think that's one of like my key rules is that the listen, but discard and getting good at that, even now, even where I sit now today,

it continues to be really important. I think that I agree with you. And I think that not knowing what you don't know actually benefits you because when you do know sometimes you're not willing to take the leaps that you would take just because you're literally just ignorant and you don't know you know you're just you have the gift of being you have the gift of ignorance so you're just like okay I'll go jump off that

you know cliff real fast maybe maybe I don't know yeah powered by powered by naivety they have this sort of saying in a mindset in New Zealand, number eight wire, which is like the wire that sort of is used in all the farming. It like makes all the fences. And there's the sense, I think, because New Zealand was on the edge of the world and outpost from everything that people had to be really creative.

And so there was this mentality around number eight wire that you kind of solve any problem with number eight wire why you could like turn it into anything to solve it. And I think it's in, you know, it's amazing how resourceful you can be when, you know, when, when you're trying to move forward. And in my particular case, like I sort of said, it wasn't like I was trying to step away from another job, or I had a little bit of time in the early days. And then when I didn't, when I retired from sport, I didn't have any other option. I had to kind of make it work, you know? And so it's amazing how resourceful you can be when you kind of commit to that. But it's, you know, it takes courage. And that's what I sort of said, if there's one thing that I'm proud of that we started, because once you start, then

it both gets harder, but you're underway and then you're moving, you know? Like there's so many terrible things about COVID-19, but so much was created. So many things were created out of COVID-19. So many businesses had to figure out how to go virtual. Companies that had fitness gyms and yoga studios. We all had, we had to figure it out. So what you just said around, you just never know what you're capable of until you're forced to do it. Like there's, when there's no other option, you just have to make it work, you know?

So I completely agree with that. And when you got started with your Kickstarter, your Kickstarter video was amazing, by the way. So this is a two-level question. When you got started with your Kickstarter, like did you have a team of people that understood how to record and how to do a Kickstarter video that helped you to do that?

How did you make it so beautiful and amazing? Well, it was my brother's mate. It was actually, you know, it was him and one other guy. And I think we paid him $700, which is like New Zealand dollars. So maybe it was less. And they showed up one day at my family friend's farm in Pahatanui, which is like north of Wellington in New Zealand in the North Island. And we had the farm for a day and my dad's mate like moved the sheep around

and we'd written the script the night before and my brother was there and I really didn't want to do it. I was kind of thinking this is not – we had six pairs of prototypes and I remember being on the farm that day and trying to and I was in front of camera I wasn't doing a very very good job you know and my my brother was uh trying to get me fired up he you know believing in this and and he he trying to tie the shoes to a fence and he electrocuted himself and uh he like like it was like because it was electrified the fence and he fell over on the ground I just remember burst that laughing and it was like okay because it was electrified, the fence, and he fell over on the ground. I just remember burst out laughing and it was like, okay, let's do this, you know.

And we had a great deal of fun and the video was like, we put it up there. And I didn't think, you know, anyone was going to buy a pair other than my mom. And it ended up taking off and sold through the thousand pairs in four days. I think it did 125 grand and we had to shut it off. And Joey, my co-founder was one of the early customers and I might add a difficult one. But again, there's like family, friends. If I've had one enormous advantages that support from people close to me to sort of say, hey, you know what, go for it. Not everyone has that. I had that. And it was like, go for it. We're going to be here to

catch you if you fall. And what if it worked out? And just when, usually the way with these things, just when it's getting so hard, you keep going around that corner, that's when it unlocks itself. And, you know, we stuck with this for a long, long, long, long, long time. And I'm proud of that in retrospect. I love it. Overnight success is a 10-year-old business, right? Yeah, it's an old story. Do you think that Kickstarter is still a viable option for younger companies that are coming up? Whatever it takes. I think it depends. It depends on the price point of the product. It depends on what type of product it is. I mean, I think there's a community of people there that have been incredibly loyal to our brand that want to see new ideas succeed and kind of take a lot of pride in helping bring non-traditional ideas into sometimes really

established categories. You guys did a great, really great job. I mean, it was beautiful. You wouldn't have known that the day was hard. You wouldn't have known that you would survive $700. Like you would have never known that. Well, I appreciate that. I would take it as a compliment. Tim, what advice do you have for founders who have an innovative idea and really want to disrupt, you know, who wants to disrupt an industry and want to create a legacy product? And what would your advice be to them?

Well, I mean, I think we covered a bunch of it, but just sort of recap some of that stuff. I mean, I think find the purpose. The purpose will unlock the largest sense of why that stuff. And I think find the purpose. The purpose will unlock the largest sense of why it matters. And when it gets hard, and it will, you'll call on that to run through the brick walls you need to, to make something a reality. So I think that's kind of a non-negotiable and not a new idea, but there's no shortage

of problems in the world. And I think finding one that you're prepared to devote your career to and then being lucky enough to actually have an entrepreneurial opportunity to do that is one of the great privileges of this, of what can be a really hard process. So I think do it with people, with someone. I mean, some people do it by themselves. I don't know how you do that. Find a team. In my particular case, Joey, co-founder, and challenge yourself to do it with someone who's different from you, that has complementary skills that will tell you the truth and will support you in equal measure at different parts of the journey and will make it fun along the way but um that sense of

team is really powerful to me and so i think that's a really really critical critical piece of it we talked about starting so i think the sooner you can do that, I mean, I think words like disrupt, get ahead of the start and making stuff, particularly making things is really difficult. So do it and then seek feedback, seek it widely and broadly and from everyone, because that's the only way you're going to get better. But listen to your instinct to ignore a whole bunch of it, because if you're doing it right and you're going to get better but listen to your instinct to ignore a whole bunch of it because if you're doing it right and you're courageous you're seeking a lot of expert opinion and to overcome that so say hey here's someone who's been in the footwear industry or the wool industry or whatever

it is for 20 years and they're telling me like you're an idiot stop now and i'm going to just like kind of skirt around that that takes you have to listen to something because otherwise you're going to do it like everyone else has done it and so i think i think that's really really key and then finally and this maybe comes from my sporting experience like believe in the power of getting a little bit better every day that it will compound over time and i think we a friend of mine told me this and i'm sure it comes from someone famous and smart but I think we we overestimate what we can do in the short term and we underestimate what we can do in the in the long term by just getting better and repping and showing up and listening and improving and tweaking and going and going again and over time if you're prepared to stick with something more often than

not you're going to get there and that's the key and you do that by surrounding yourself with a great community and with friends and doing it with people you respect who are going to challenge you and all the other things that ladder up to it but that for me is the key experience for me both in my sporting and business career is like is that compounding impact of that continuous improvement mindset perfect practice makes perfect i can't remember which which coach said that you know someone smart somebody yeah yeah man but you've got to keep coach said that, you know. Someone smart. Yeah, yeah, man. But you've got to keep showing up at practice, you know, and you've got to show up at practice because you want to be there and, you know, when it's cold and it's rainy or whatever, you know,

so. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And for a lot of people, just so you can understand, starting literally could mean just going to your secretary of state and getting your business license or making that product, that skincare product so that you can try it or making that food and making sure that people love it or making that shoe, right? Even if you have no idea. All of that's true. I suspect the moment where it will really feel real is when you get your first customer. And there's a contract inherent in that you're going to deliver something. And that's when it gets real. And that's when you wake up in the middle of the night going, oh, man. Wow. You did that. Yeah, exactly. But give it a nudge if you want to do it.

So Tim, Allbirds is probably one of the most comfortable shoes that I've ever worn in my life. And I swear to you, I'm not just saying that because I'm interviewing you. Like, these are incredible. I went into the store yesterday with an intention to buy a shoe to work out. And the people in the store were extremely helpful, by the way. But then I noticed that you, I mean, obviously I had done research, so I knew that you sold apparel and then I put the apparel on and it feels like heaven on your skin.

How did you make that transition out of footwear into apparel? I know it's just a natural transition, but was that a part of your concept from the beginning? Like, did you know that you wanted to do that or did that come later? Yeah, it was a sort of a natural extension of the work we do with natural materials. So we started to really think deeply about wool and eucalyptus fiber and a whole bunch of other things. And we started to sort of see that there was an opportunity to make socks and then underwear and slowly sort of taking these materials that were working so well to create these incredible experiences in footwear and to expand them. And we're in the early chapter of our journey in apparel, but the same, I mean, the real hero here is nature, yeah? Like that just against the skin and if you can for 50 the better part of half century

we've been innovating with synthetic materials and we believe that nature has got is all the answers and it's really about unlocking that and we need to play catch up a little bit with these materials to sort of create these incredible experiences and that's what we're trying to do and you know we started in in footwear with just one shoe and it's really focused and then we've added performance footwear with just one shoe and it was really focused. And then we've added performance footwear. So we've got our first running shoes that maybe you encountered there. That is another big, big, big area of focus for us.

I mean, I think we were told again, talk about experts, that natural materials couldn't make great performance materials, that that was the realm of synthetics. And we've disproved that with our first product, the Dasher. When you guys were growing, because you guys grew rapidly, or what seemed like it was rapid, what were the mistakes you were making? Oh, how long you got? I mean, so many. I mean, I feel like, you know, that's part of it. I mean, I think at the end of the day,

the products are super important and the mission, the brand, the positioning, all the rest of it. I think at the end of the day, the team are super important and the mission, the brand, the positioning, all the rest of it. I think at the end of the day, the team that you put together is not a new idea, but it's a really hard thing to do. And the way we thought about it was, let's get people in from early on that were way smarter than us. We didn't, never really made shoes before. So let's solve that problem and let's understand like just even how you do that. And let's not find out factories on Google. And, but that takes a certain amount of courage to sort of be really, really clear and upfront and self aware of the things that you do really well and the things that you don't.

And so that was a starting point. And then I think allowed us to sort of really bring in a team. And we were always kind of thinking, okay, and I credit Joey a lot with this, like we'd always acted really small but dreamed really big. And so we were always trying to hire and continue to still try and hire people that were for the next chapter right now. And that takes a certain amount of like getting them to believe that they're going to leave their really great job

at this really established company that knows what they're doing to come and work with the people that haven't really done that. And I don't want to say that was necessarily a mistake, but it's just, that's one of the things that's really, really hard to get right. And I think we got that right a lot. And the people that we have and the people that we learned from were critical because first thing you've got to admit though, there is like that you don't have all the answers and that that sometimes isn't always easy because the world's sort of expecting you to have them you know so I have another audience question which you've kind of spoken to a little bit you know throughout this conversation these conversations this is what I love about your next move is this

is kind of like a little master class right right? For people that are watching that want to do what you and I have had, have been so lucky and honored, you know, because I'm honored to be here and have these opportunities, what we've been so lucky to do. But Kevin Gerard asks, what is the process to find the best manufacturer to work with or the best factory to work with? External,

and I'm going to add this to Kevin's question, external to going on Google? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, Beatrice, it's not easy. And I think like, again, the way that we thought about it once we got established was that mass manufacturer of footwear had kind of moved writ large to some big countries like China and there was an opportunity to kind of go back further upstream and we started in Korea a place where shoes would be made for a long time but had become more expensive and we found some smaller but very established factories that we paid more, who were prepared to really work hard to realize our sustainable vision and create products with extraordinary quality. And it was counterintuitive, but we wanted a big mindshare of a smaller place rather than a small mindshare of a larger place. And we wanted to do things differently. And when we started, the idea that even five years,

six years ago, we started making shoes and the idea that we were going to use sustainable materials and pay more for them in some cases for componentry that people wouldn't see, our manufacturers looked at us like we had six heads. Like, why would you do that? This doesn't matter. And it's amazing how that shifted even now.

But we developed like deep relationships. It's like anyone else. Those partners, but we developed deep relationships like anyone else. Those partners are running their businesses. They have visions for the future. They want to make an impact. It's about deep relationships with those teams and we've created them. Some of those factories we were still working with deeply to innovate, to create, to solve these problems, to do things differently.

Along the way, get certifications, put solar panels on your roof like it's like anything else it's a key partnership and you know you've got to get and visit and see and break bread um and understand like anything else like the motivations of the people that you're working with so they can understand yours and then they can take a risk on you so none of that's easy but it's so important in In the early days, like if you can't make the thing that you want to sell, it kind of doesn't matter. And so those relationships are really, really important. Yeah. And I completely agree with you.

Getting out there to see them, meet them, shake hands, break bread, eat food, connect, do all the things, it's really important. And I think it's important to understand the culture and to understand how those factories treat their people. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And that factory might be around the corner from your house. And you know, we looked at the factories everywhere around the world and kind of before we made our decision and you got to be there and see it and you got to feel it and you got to understand

your partner's like dreams for the future as well. And I think if those two things can come together, then, you know, you can create these really special relationships and friendships. And there's been really cool things have come out of that, you know, and you've learned a lot and they become partners in innovation and creativity as well. So it's important. Absolutely. We are nothing without them, to be honest. I want to shift gears a little bit and go into talking about your co-founder. What do you think, especially for the humans that are watching this that are solopreneurs? I am with you. I would not know what to do without my co-founder, Simon, right? Like I would be lost without him, especially in those beginning days. Do you suggest that if you don't have a co-founder

that you get one? And then what are the things that you should look't have a co-founder that you get one and then what are the things that you should look for in a co-founder yeah I look there's no rules everyone's going to be different and you know I couldn't have done it by myself I tried for or not that it's so much that I tried I was with by myself for a period of time and always looking for a foil you know knowing that there were some things that I could do and some things that i was seeing clearly in the case of the product i had a really clear vision and felt like a a strength really is you know around the creation but we joey kind of sailed in we met through our wives who were roommates in college he was a customer of the kickstarter and you know this guy kind of hit me like a hurricane with a vision for the world that was going to change. And I found the purpose and, but we were very different. He, you know,

taught me so much, challenged me, supported me, but made this whole thing fun. And it comes back to kind of my earlier point. Like, I think there's a tendency to want to sort of, you know, work and partner and, you know, with people that are like you and i think the courage to go and do it with someone quite different and we still run the business as co-co's and we split the business and share the business but we overlap and we're up in each other's staff it's it's a really like delicate balance of sort of humility and confidence and but again he's an engineer i'm a designer amer, New Zealand, there's a lot of things that he looks at a problem very differently from me. And I've come to really appreciate that. And so I don't know another way. Doesn't mean it's the only way. But I do think if

you are going to do it, look for someone who does the things that you don't do very well versus someone who's like you, who's going to kind of double down on that. I think that's probably the simple, simple, simple piece of advice. So you would say in order to work in harmony, that you kind of want that person to be the, your, your, you know, your positive, I don't want to say to your negative, but you, you don't want somebody that's just like you. I don't think you do. You know, I think even when we look at problems or we react to problems, it's just different. And so the differences create strength and they create the ability to kind of go further together than you can individually. And that's the core because

at some point you're going to have to deeply buy into that, not just buy into it, but deeply buy into it. And, you know, Joe and I have had some jumps along the way where we could have gone, you know what, like, you know, and we we have but it's always been that foundation of like hey look this would be less good if one or the other wasn't here and I think you know that's been the secret to something I'm really proud of it's a relationship like anything else we've had to work at and we're quite different but I think we share values we share a vision we share a sort of a desire to kind of compete and get better. And so that's been a really important part of the business for us. I couldn't have done it any other way. How do you deal with the moments when you guys don't agree? There's always going to be a couple of big ones. And we had one

particular moment where it kind of could have gone either way. And we just sort of had to sit down and sort of, we realized that we'd been working together, but we hadn't been talking. There'd been a bunch of stuff like kind of building up, you know, like that time you took my stapler and like didn't put it back. You know what I mean? Like it built up over long periods of time. And we're actually, we're a month after we launched and we'd had that million dollars in our first month. We'd been like wildly successful and we both kind of crashed. And what we realized is that this needed maintenance and so we still meet at the start and the end of just about every week a running list of of notes for each other super disciplined uh you know once a quarter and and uh you know we'll step step back

once a year we'll kind of go away together for a night and just be like hey where are you at you know how's things going and like really maintain that. So there's never that sense of resentment about the stapler because it's just going to come out. And I think what we've learned along the way is that people tend to not, particularly as the organization grows, and maybe even just when it's two of you, you need to be a cheerleader for each other. And sometimes that's criticism. Hey, what's wrong? Like you weren't great today or you really missed that. But also, hey, a lot of people think that that was, but keep going because that's the right thing to do. And so I think that support both, you know,

critically and positively has been like foundation. But that, you've got to work at it. You can't like, you've got to work at it. I don't know if that resonates with you, Beatrice, with Simon. It does. It's a relationship just, you know, just like everything else and everybody else, you know, it's, it's crazy. But it's beautiful. It's a beautiful one. What would you say, I mean, this is actually going to be my last question. What is your next move, Tim, professionally and personally?

You know, we've recently become a public company and I've never felt sort of like clearer or more excited about where we're going as a business. And I feel like the world's kind of turning to believe a lot more of the things that we thought were true than five years ago, which is hugely energizing and encouraging. And, and, um, I feel like we've, we've got a team around us that I talked about earlier that, uh, or even at the next level of this that I feel like I'm learning from every day. And I've got a, I've got a young, uh, a young family, um, that hopefully doesn't burst through the door in these last few, seconds but i would love it if they did which is is all good so i honestly feel really lucky and if if there's um but if there's one thing i would change and and and you touched on covid a little bit new zealand's still a long way away i haven't been home for a couple of years and and like my heart's there my family's there and uh hopefully my next move is is that we get past this thing sooner rather than later

and and i can get back there and and uh no problems i've been super fortunate but but hopefully that that's that that's the next move summer in the future and then along the way we'll just keep we'll just keep going with all birds we've got incredible momentum and this natural material innovation i think we're doing some really extraordinary things um that we can't wait to sort of bring to the world so keep going and just keep getting a little bit better every day. Keep it that simple. I love it. Well, keep on keeping on and keep on doing such beautiful work. You are literally the change in the world that you live in,

you know, and you embody that. And I'm grateful to have had this time to share with you and to talk with you. Thank you for spending your time with me. Me too. But back the other way, I appreciate it. It's really an honor to be here and great to chat with you. And have a great day. I appreciate it. You too.

Thank you. That's all for this episode of Your Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to Your Next Move on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Your Next Move is a production of Inc. and Capital One Business.