Your Next Move - Building a Team That Will Last

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Being a business owner means having to innovate constantly and navigate change. So Inc., in partnership with Capital One Business, wants to help you figure out Your Next Move. Join Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of M.M.LaFleur, a New York-based clothing brand celebrating women through thoughtfully designed pieces, personal styling, and engaging content, in conversation with our small-business host Beatrice Dixon, founder of the feminine care brand The Honey Pot Company. Sarah will share lessons from her entrepreneurial journey, including how she built a strong team and how she pivoted quickly when much of the world began working from home. Discover ways to think differently about how you lead and grow your business.

With the Venture X Business card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with no preset spending limit, your purchasing power adapts to meet your business needs. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Venture X Business. Terms and conditions apply. I'm Sarah Lynch and you are listening to Your Next Move, audio edition, produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between host B. Dixon

and Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of women's workwear clothing company, M.M. LaFleur. In their conversation, they discuss the necessary mindset that founders need to have to manage big challenges for their business and the importance of mental health for leaders. Here is Bee's conversation with Sarah LaFleur. Enjoy.

Hi Sarah. Hey Bee, how are you? I'm good. I'm so happy that I get you to myself today. Every time we talk, we're always talking amongst others. That's so true. Right? Yes.

I know we got connected through other people, but I am honored to call you a fellow entrepreneur friend and delighted to be here. So thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just delighted to be here. So thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you, I'm grateful. So I was listening to a podcast you did just in my like research for, you know, pulling together all of this, right? And I was blown away by your story

prior to you starting M.M. LaFleur. Can you tell us about that? Like, your dreams and aspirations were really dope. You know? And I don't think a lot of people know that about you. Thanks. Yeah, no. Fashion was the last thing I thought I would be doing. Not because, you know, I thought poorly of it or anything like that. I just, I did not think it was an area of interest of mine. And I think for the growing up,

for the longest time, I thought I wanted to work in international development, specifically having to do with refugee issues, and got to spend some time working in a refugee camp in Zambia, and then spent some time working in South Africa for a nonprofit down there. And to make a very long story short, I was not cut out for the nonprofit sector, which is a very admirable and needed sector for sure. And I continue to root for all of my nonprofit colleagues. They're the true heroes of the world. But I think personality-wise I at some point

realized I'm not made of the stuff that I think truly successful nonprofit workers are made of. Kind of the art of patience and diplomacy and I realized what I thrived in is kind of the fast-paced, incredibly scrappy, numbers-oriented business. I guess I really realized what I like is business, and I liked having a creative angle to it, even though I myself am not really strictly the creative. I love being surrounded by creatives and working with them. So yeah, it was, it was a roundabout path. But I can tell you, you know, when I started this business at 27, I think two years before that, I had made

an Excel spreadsheet of all of the possible ways my career could go. And starting a fashion ecommerce startup was not even on the list. So it's funny how life turns out that way, right? But everything that you did got you to this moment now, you know, and I think, yeah, and I think that that's the important thing to remember, you know, because I'm sure even though you realize that that wasn't necessarily the road you wanted

to take, I'm sure you brought some of that humanity into your business, into how you treat the people that you work with, into how you want to serve humans through M.M. LaFleur. You know what I mean? Like I know that- Yeah, thank you for saying that. I know that you're there. Totally. And I think it continues to be a big part of me

in the way I get to give back. So, you know, I've realized the way I'm going to contribute to a cause that I care very much about isn't by working in it, but hopefully bringing attention to it, donating to it, sitting on their boards, and hopefully I bring something else to it. And I also get the great pleasure of talking about it to my customers. So we partner with the International Rescue Committee. We have for almost a decade now. We've hired recently immigrated refugees. We've hired them in our warehouse. We've hired them to do back-end accounting work. We have contributed to the IRC for multiple give-back moments. And so I think it continues very much to be part of who I am,

even if it's not the thing I'm doing 24-7. Exactly. Yeah. I just, you know, sister, it's important for us to remember how we contribute and how we... Because whether you're on the ground or investing in it or doing all the things you just mentioned, you're still on the ground. You're just not necessarily physically in Africa, you know?

Totally. And so, okay. So now, let's talk about M.M. LaFleur. Can you tell us about it? Like, how did you, so the day that you decided that this was what you wanted to do, what was that? What was that moment like? It was a moment where I was like crying mostly

and couldn't even, like I was watching lots of old Grey's Anatomy episodes that I hadn't seen in a long time and like through tears I was like, I think I want to do this but I'm not sure. So that's really how it started. You know, I just for some context, so after I left South Africa, came back to New York, I got a job in a private equity firm thinking, I don't know, it was kind of the furthest thing from the work I was doing, but it was a firm I really respected and why not give this a try. To make a very long story short, it did not work out.

I mean, I basically left after four months not having a plan B, not knowing what I was going to do with my life. But I had always had this figment of an idea that clothing for busy working women could be done better. My first job, my first real job out of school was working for a management consulting firm and where we had to dress up every day, dress up like professionals. And often I was sitting across the desk from these big corporate executives. Mind you, I was 23 years old and, you know, I could like barely afford rent that month,

but you were supposed to pretend like you knew what you were talking about. And, you know, you had your shit together. Oh, excuse me, I shouldn't swear, right? Wait, did I have my stuff together? Everybody knows that word. Anyway, so clothing for me was a real armor. And my mother worked in fashion,

and she taught me everything I know about fashion. And she always said to me, you know, she was like, she would say, Sarah, you know, why does a doctor wear a white coat? It's not because it's practical, it's because it communicates authority and demands respect. And that is the power of costume. So don't underestimate it. And so I think a lot of people think of fashion

as somewhat trivial and it gets thought of as kind of a side thing, a side piece. But I think there's so much magic in costume. And of course you can choose to embrace it or you could choose to say, I'm just gonna wear whatever I want and empower to you. But if you choose to embrace it or you could choose to say, I'm just going to wear whatever I want and power to you. But if you choose to make it something that you have your toolkit, and if you choose to make fashion one of your toolkits,

I think it can be magical. So the idea really was, could we make busy working women feel better about themselves and communicate the message that they want to get across by getting dressed easier for them. There's a stat that we share that working women, on average, spend two more weeks than men getting ready for the office or getting ready for whatever they have that day.

And I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, two weeks. Like, what would you do with two weeks of your time? And so, you know, M.M. LaFleur was really started with that in mind. We wanted to create beautiful clothes. I mean, that was kind of, that's a given. That was table stakes. And for that, I have my co-founder Miyako Duthink.

She was the former head designer at Zac Posen and came from this incredibly illustrious fashion background. So she brought a lot of her high-end fashion credibility and skills, but then beyond that, you know, she was talking to our customers all day and all night saying, okay, what is it that you really want from your clothes? Oh, I want things that are machine washable.

I want things that are wrinkle resistant. I don't ever want to have to go to the dry cleaner. I want things that when I sweat, it doesn't seep through. And so at one point we had these shirts where you had like kind of underarm pads so that if you sweat you sweat into your pads as opposed to like into your silk and you could just like rip that out and then put that in the washing machine as opposed to like having to send in your silk to the dry cleaner. Anyway, lots and lots of creative ideas and really from there MM

was born and so you know I came at it very much from a customer's perspective. I'm not a designer, but I think of myself as the customer. To me, that is the only way to innovate. Is to think about yourself as the human that's using whatever it is that the product is. Right. Wow. That was brilliant, man. The pad under the underarm. Do you know how many times I've wanted and needed that? It's crazy. You and all women who sweat. Wow.

Wow. What would you say? I mean, what you just said was that you think about yourself as your customer because you are your customer. But what else sets M.M. LaFleur apart from kind of just the industry of fashion? I think maybe the most important part is that I believe, I'm sure all CEOs say this, but I truly believe we have a soul and that our customer knows exactly who she's shopping from. And we do that in several ways. I think probably the most obvious one

is our digital magazine, our weekly newsletter. It's called the M-Dash. And actually when I started MM, I didn't even, we started that, this blog, the M-Dash, before I even had a clothing line, because I thought there was really no conversation happening around working women and their fashion struggles, which actually, you could say fashion struggles,

but that very much overlapped with life struggles, right? Like, why do you need things that are machine washable? I mean, I'll just say, like, I have, I'm a mom, I have three kids, and so usually, you know, before I get out of the house, I have some amount of food on my clothes. Like, that's just kind of the life I have, right? And so, being able to, like, easily wipe that off

with a piece of cloth or throw that in the machine and put on something else is very essential to me. And we really try to tell that story, to communicate that story through the things that we write and through our branding. One of our taglines is we're perfectionists who spill on our clothes. We're not kind of your very self-serious fashion with a capital F brand. You know, I think we say, you know, our clothes should be the least interesting thing about you. We're here to support you in whatever work you do. And so I think that makes us, I hope, more relatable and helps women feel like their

money is going to support a business that will continue to improve their lives because we're really thinking about the lives they lead. That's real. Because it does. Because it costs, first of all, it costs a lot of money to build a wardrobe, right? Your clothes are reasonably priced. I know that that's relative, but they just are.

The value that you bring is incredible. My dry cleaning bill that I just had was astronomical. It was ridiculous, right? I think just that alone, that type of value that you bring already is such an innovative process because you're actually really thinking about the humans that you're serving. It's incredible. And you know, because your next move is really sure, like we're talking, you and I are talking,

but the thing is, it's really important, I think, each one teach one. And when we're talking, you know, to anybody that's watching this, who may want to get in the game of fashion, right, in the business of fashion, it's really important to understand and know that, you know, making it so somebody can just simply, you're running out the door, you're trying to get out, your kid throws some juice on you or

something, whatever. You don't want to have to make life decisions to figure out what you're going to wear, you know, or what, how you're going to get that staying off? You just want to be like, I just think that that's incredible. So I have an audience question. So in the nine years since you founded online shopping has evolved a lot, a lot. Are you seeing any changes as a result of the global pandemic? A lot of people are staying home now. If yes, what are they? And how are you engaging with the challenges? That's a really good question. It's a great question. And I would say, it's very rare that some sort of macro event doesn't touch our business.

I would love to be, I'm trying to think of a business where maybe you're relatively insulated, right? And I'm like, I mean, what business is not? But if I had to pick kind of categories that are, that feel it immediately, I mean, I would put, I definitely would put beauty as one of them. And I mean, fashion is an obvious one, right? And the pandemic was brutal for our business. We had to go through several rounds of layoffs. We had to close all of our stores. We had, I think, nine stores before the pandemic.

We closed them all. We got to reopening two of them in the first year after the pandemic. And I'll tell you, one of them was in Washington, DC, two blocks from the White House. And so that ended up being a rather catastrophic decision. We couldn't even access our store for six weeks while the insurrection was going on. I mean, it was like, think of every kind of crazy thing to happen in America over the

past two years, and we felt the impact viscerally. I never want to say that any of that is fun. It's the last thing from fun thinking about how you're going to make sure that your business not only survives but then thrives on the other end. But I have to say, I think those are the challenges that I really love digging my heels into and saying, okay, how are we gonna get through this? And then, you know, specifically, yes, it's true. We used to cater to a lot of women who went to the office. And so there was a real existential crisis, I think,

for the brand initially when COVID started, where we were saying, like, what is the point of MM if nobody is going to be meeting people, you know, outside their homes anymore? Lo and behold, I think just even two, three months into the pandemic, we had customers starting to write to us saying, hey, like, I need to be on these Zoom meetings and I actually don't know what I'm supposed to be wearing. Or you know, I'm sick and tired of being in my sweatpants all day because it's actually making me depressed.

What can I be wearing? And now that actually a lot of women are going back to the office or have gone back in some sort of hybrid form, I think we're starting to see people again. You guys are meeting in person to have this conference, right? A lot of women are saying to us, OK, my company's

gone casual in dress code, but what does that actually mean? Like, am I allowed to wear jeans to the office? I don't want to actually dress too casually. I don't want to overdress too formally and feel like I'm out of place. I think, unfortunately, a lot of the anxiety around getting ready for whatever you have ahead of you, that continues. And I very much want to be there for her to say, like, you've got this. Don't worry. We're here to help you figure it out.

So actually, our showrooms, which we've reopened, the one in New York and the one in Washington, DC, they have never been busier. It's a lot of women kind of running in to say, like, and I am one of these people. I've put on weight during the pandemic, none of my old clothes fit me, help. Or I started a new job,

I'm gonna meet my colleagues for the first time, help. So we get a lot of panicked calls, but we're here for them too. And you have a stylist that people can use on your website, which is really, really cool. How does that work? You can go to our site, mmluflr.com, and you can book a virtual appointment if you'd like.

I think maybe that's one of the silver linings of the pandemic, is that we learned how to connect with other people virtually over Zoom. And so you can book a 30-minute consultation, and one of our best stylists will work with you to say, I think you should try these styles. I can send them to you. And so that's a pretty seamless experience. If you can take 30 minutes to an hour out of your day, and you live in the New York or Washington DC area, do shop, stop by one of our showrooms. You can get a glass of champagne and it'll

be the most enjoyable hour of shopping you have ever experienced, I promise. I love it. I love it. And to piggyback on that question, we're also flying in a Lear jet into a recession right now. How does that make you feel? What did the pandemic teach you about how to prepare for that? Because know, because nobody knew how to prepare for, nobody knew how to prepare for. It's so true. But I think it was true for us, right? COVID was school for us.

Actually, you know what? I just want to share this story for a moment. There's a restaurant that I go to in a town called Kent, Connecticut, and the woman who owns this restaurant, go to in a town called Kent, Connecticut. And the woman who owns this restaurant, Alyssa Stein, she's an amazing business owner. And her father started this business 49 years. They're about to go into their 50th year.

And you can imagine during the pandemic, I mean, definitely not easy for any restaurant, but this was a restaurant a little bit in the outskirts, so really hard to reach. And she evolved and she said, you know, we became a commissary, we were selling groceries to our customers, we were doing takeout, you know, we did everything we could to survive. And she said, if you can't survive, then your business is not meant to be in business. And I just thought, wow, truer words have never been spoken. And so, yes, of course it's always difficult

and the pandemic killed a lot of great businesses, but I think there's something to be said about, okay, can you innovate and can you evolve your business model to meet the needs of the times? And so, if we're going into a recession, okay, what does that mean for a business like ours? I think there are gonna be some customers

who are going to be dropping down in price point. They're not gonna necessarily want to shop for a thousand dollar jackets. And so I hope that they will come and find our business. And so it's my job as CEO to make sure that I'm acquiring them as customers. Because we will also probably lose some customers who will say, well, I don't actually wanna pay $360

for a M.M. LaFleur jacket. I'm gonna go shop at a fast fashion brand. So we'll lose some, but I hope we'll also gain some. And then I think kind of, you know, what's interesting is just seeing the jobs report that came out is hiring continues to be strong, even though there is talk of a recession.

And I think some economists are saying maybe the job market will continue to be strong because inflation is happening and people need to continue to work to support their lifestyle. So I am actually hoping that this will be a time where a lot of people are starting new jobs, which tends to be a good opportunity for us as a business. So I think not to be all silver lining about it, but I think it's important to see, like, okay, recession, overall terrible for the economy and going to be a very hard time,

but is there opportunity for you as a business? And I think we're always looking for those. And I think there will be. I think we're gonna be all right. I think so too. But maybe that's just my like super positive thinking after two and a half years of a pandemic. Right, but I think we're gonna be all right because we've been through some,

a pretty rough couple of years, and it's hard to think that it could get worse than that. And it can, but it also could be totally fine, you know, but I just didn't want to not ask. Thank you. Because I think that it's important to be thinking about these things. Thank you. Yeah.

You know? What would you say was a defining moment for M.M. LeFleur? Gosh, I would say there have been several, but the pandemic, I just have to kind of pause and talk about that for a second, because it was really hard on us as a business. And our team had to get much smaller before it started growing again. I think for me, just knowing how hard our existing team was working and fighting for the success of the business, that to me was really inspiring and is probably the only reason I kept going. There were so many moments where I also had, I had three kids during the pandemic. And I had people who I really, really respect,

you know, and whose opinion I trust say to me, you know, Sarah, this wouldn't be a bad time to call it quits. Like you built an amazing brand, an amazing company. Why not let this be the end? And I couldn't. I mean, how could I when there were so many other people at my company, you know, I mean,

hiring was at an all time high, they could have left and gotten any number of jobs, but they chose to stay at M.M. LaFleur. And so I really owe it to them to make sure that this company again, flourishes and that they're able to say like, wow, I was part of that. I was part of turning that company around and taking it to the other side. And so this has been very much a defining, a life-defining moment for the company. And I think my team has fought like hell. And honestly, they they've like they've become the strongest professionals. If you can overcome this I just like don't think

there is much more you can do. It's interesting how somebody can just say to you I think that if there's any time now would be the right time to call it quit. Like you need to be the person to say that. And you know what, B, that was actually in some ways, I am so glad I heard that because I think in my heart, there was this moment of, oh, am I still doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Right. And and when other people said that to me, I was like, hell no. Like get out of my office. I don't want to hear it.

And knowing that my values and what I wanted to be doing, that I was staying true to that, rather than listening to the advice of someone who I trust and respect in all of that, but who was not me. And that's as someone who is a perpetual people pleaser and cares a lot about what other people think. That was a good growth moment for me too. We're going to take a quick break and be back with more from Bee and Sarah.

Here's a little tip for growing your business. Get the Venture X Business Card from Capital One and earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. Plus, the Venture X Business Card has no preset spending limit, so your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs. And when you travel,

you'll have access to over 1,300 airport lounges. Just imagine where the Venture X Business Card from Capital One can take your business needs. And when you travel, you'll have access to over 1300 airport lounges. Just imagine where the Venture X business card from Capital One can take your business. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Venture X business. What does success look like for Sarah? As a human and then as a founder? For me, it has always been about freedom. Freedom to be able to do the things that I like to do, freedom to have a family and create a family when I choose to do so.

Freedom about how I spend my time. I think that is the most important thing for me. Despite having taken a big financial hit on the company front during the pandemic, I feel very fulfilled. I do. I think it has really made me realize that I keep going and I keep doing what I do

because I love what I do, not because I'm looking for some sort of big outcome that will then allow me to go sip a margarita on the beach in Hawaii. Not that I wouldn't love to do that. I'm always for that. But that's not why I'm an entrepreneur and nothing against power to the people

who are able to do that and want to do that. But for me, being an entrepreneur is deeply tied with being able to be free to do a lot of the things that I love to do. I love that. So your end in mind, when you think about your end in mind, because you know we're always taught that as founders. Totally, totally. To begin, to begin. What does that look like for you? Maybe I'm crazy for saying this, but I hope I'm like running MM 10 years from now.

Like maybe the business will have gone through a sale, right? Whatever it is that my backers and investors need so that they can be made whole and hopefully more. But I hope I'm still with a business because that is what I love doing. I love that. You will be. I feel like you're going to be. Besides the obvious operational steps of learning as much as you can,

breaking down the task, partnering, et cetera. What are some of the tools and tricks you've used to handle your mindset when you're faced with huge risky projects that you know your company still needs to do? But it's so large and terrifying that the temptation not to start is incredibly strong. That was a big question. That's a huge question. And so it's really around mindset shift, is that right? Yeah, that's what it feels like.

Yeah. Well, I will say, I think the most important part, I mean, I'm speaking to an audience of entrepreneurs here, right, B, that's who we're talking to. So I feel like I do not need to state the obvious, which is your mental health is everything. And I think people would laugh if they knew how much I spent both time and money wise on my mental health.

I have been working with a psychiatrist for a decade now. I am pretty religious about getting in my exercise even if that means just going on a 30-minute walk. And I don't, it's not that I always succeed at it, but it is I feel the kind of the baseline of what I need to be clear-headed. And I think when I don't have that, I don't make good decisions. And I have been in a place, I not, you know, actually not even during the pandemic. The pandemic was hard, but I wasn't in that place. In, I would say 2019, I was kind of, there was a moment where I was,

I really felt like I was spitting out of control and I had to just pop a ton of anti-anxiety pills to get through the day. And yeah, right? Like it's, I think it's not just us. I think that's true of a lot of entrepreneurs, I mean. And that was a really, really scary time for me because I just like, I couldn't even control

my brain. I would just wake up in the middle of the night totally panicked. And I told my psychiatrist and she said, you know, let's up the number of appointments that we're doing. My family was a huge support. My mom lives in Japan and she actually, there was one weekend where my husband was going to be away and I was scared of being alone. That's kind of how in bad shape I was.

And my mom flew from Japan really just to be with me for four days and that really helped. And so I realize I'm kind of oversharing here, but I think my point is, you need to make sure that you've got the support you need to put your head back in a good place. Then the next thing I would do is really look to the sure that you've got the support you need to put your head back in a good place, then the next thing I would do is really look to the team around you. You know, do you have a good right hand

with whom you can really bounce ideas off of and say, like, I'm gonna just be crazy here and suggest a bunch of crazy things, and we're gonna talk about all of them, and making sure that you have that partner. And I don't think it necessarily even needs to come in the form of someone who works at your company. It could be a consultant, it could be a fellow entrepreneur friend,

it could be a board member, but having that support is crucial. First of all, you are not saying too much. I feel like as a society, we don't spend enough time talking about things that are real. Anxiety is real, depression is real, overwhelmed, being overwhelmed is real. Talking to a therapist is a thing to do

and actually not just if you have something going on but when you just need to be proactive. You know what I mean? So thank you for being honest and sharing that because I think that people think that because you have a startup, or excuse me, not a startup that because you have a startup or not, excuse me, not a startup, because you have a, you know, a really great business that has left

the startup phase because you look like you're experiencing a huge level of success, that that means that everything's okay. It's actually easier when it's much smaller. And so I applaud you for saying that because we should all be willing to say that if something's not right, then you have to be okay to say that it's not right and I can't be alone and I'm bugging out and I need to take some medicine or I need to do whatever. You have to do that for yourself. And I also feel like, and I wonder if you agree with me, when it's something that's really huge,

that feels really huge, and that feels like you're trying to figure out what you need to do, also the situations where it's like really risky, those are actually the ones that you have to lean into the most, because it probably means that that's what you're supposed to do, even though it's the worst, because you don't know what to do. So... I feel like we were meant to have this podcast recording

because I literally have a decision like that right now. Yeah. And I think it's a sign. Yeah. And those are gonna come always. The other thing I will say, this kind of connects to wanting to be a people pleaser and wanting to look at the data and, you know, kind of all the things that I think maybe the business world teaches you to be. And actually, my husband said this to me the other day. He said, I'm learning to trust my gut more.

And it just kind of caught me by surprise because it is not how I would describe what I do. And yet I know I'm a deeply intuitive person. So I'm really trying to repeat that to myself, which is listen to your gut, listen to your gut, listen to your gut. Because it is rare that I have regretted a decision where I listened to my gut.

Although I've done plenty of things on the other side. I was about to say, you seem like a person who listens to your gut. Like, you've been willing to walk away from some really big opportunities because you knew it just wasn't what you were supposed to be doing. I think you do listen to your gut. Thank you. I know. I just would never describe myself as that,

because that seems kind of... I don't know, like, you know something that other people don't. But maybe you just know. Well, in a lot of ways, yeah. But in a lot of ways... That's right for me, right? But in a lot of ways, you do know what other people don't as it relates to you. Right. And when you and when you think about founder led businesses, look,

when we're talking about product innovation, sure, like we do all the data and all the stuff and all and all the analytics and all the things. But if you ask me as the chief of innovation of Honeypot. Yes, that's you. Sister, I create products because I have a vagina and I know what I mean. And you create products because you are a human who you, just like you said earlier.

So I think you do use your gut. Yeah. I think you do. I really. Yeah. I think you do. You're right. I really do. You're definitely right. I want to transition because the way that you met your co-founder was really dope

and the kind of the chance that she took because wasn't it like your mommy and your dad gave you like 35,000 and you had 35,000. So you had like 70,000 to start your business. And then she left a huge designer to come and work with you. And then you were going to talk to somebody else. Tell us about that, because I think it's cool. The starting story. Yes.

This is literally over 10 years ago now. But I was I was 27. I left this last job kind of screaming and crying out the door. Didn't know what I was going to do with my life. But I was like, I have always had this idea. Let me go do this. I had, it's amazing that you know this, but yes, I had $36,000 saved up. And I called my mom again, who lived in Japan and my bank account was in Japan. And I was like, Mom, I want you to empty it all, put it all into my business account. And she was like, all? Are you sure about that? And I was like, just do it. Of course, you know,

and no kids, no mortgage, no health concerns, you know, I was like, I was all in. And then I asked them if they'd be willing to lend me the same amount. So they said very generously said yes. And so we were off to the races with $72,000. And that really got me through, I would say the initial year and a half of hiring the most important person to this business, which is my co-founder. I have two co-founders, and my other co-founder was just as important as well, but she was really on the operational side more with me. And my other co-founder, Miyako, who is very much still part of the business, she used the design brain. She used to be the head designer at Zac Posen, had done work with Jason Wu, had been nominated,

and also won several fashion awards. Like, she was a known quantity in that high-end fashion world. And I kind of, I met her through a headhunter, which was also incredibly random, because I did not know anybody in fashion. And I said to her, because I did not know anybody in fashion. And I said to her, hey, you know, I've got this idea

and I want to make it... I want to make American working women the most fashionable women in the world. What do you think about that? And it's still a miracle to me. Everyone says to me, like, how the hell did you get Miyako to join you? And, you know, to this day, who knows?

I think timing played a huge part in it, where she was in her life and whatnot. But that's our founding story. That's how we met. And we've been in business together a decade now. She is truly my best, best business partner. She came because she saw it. Right. Yeah. What you created was dope. It would have been weird if she was like, no, I'm good,

you know, in my opinion. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Everyone's always like, you know, they're trying not to be rude about it, but they're like, but like, I don't understand, like, how did she join you? And I was like, life, you know?

You got to take a lot of chances. Exactly. And the fact that this was going to be hers. You said the key word that she worked for this person and for that person. And with you, she actually works with you. Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah, so dope.

So as your business continued to scale, how did your team needs change? How did you go from that first, that year of having $70,000 bringing in this super amazing, incredible human, Miyako, what's your other co-founder's name? Noreen. Noreen. How did you scale from there? Because your leadership team is huge. That's so important to your scale.

A lot of it in the initial stages was, can you introduce me to someone who's in this space? And it's a very particular kind of person who is willing to join you when you're seven people working in an office right above a methadone clinic. Like, that's like... That's a special person. So, you know, one thing that I really dislike that's said often in the Starved at Community is like, the team that gets you to your Series A isn't the team that's gonna get you to your Series B. As though somehow, the Series A people are not as whatever,

skilled or good as your Series B people. And I just think that's total BS. I think the people who are willing to join you when your company is nothing really, and are willing to roll up their sleeves and say like, I see the electricity is out today, let me see if I can get that working. By the way, meanwhile, their other job,

their other real job is like marketing slash sales slash finance slash HR, whatever it may be. That's a special kind of person. And I was surrounded by those kinds of people for most of the seed years. I say seed years, but I don't necessarily think of myself in terms of funding rounds. We just, you know, we had a very long period of not being funded. So that team to me is, you know, I mean, the team that everything was built on, built upon.

And a lot of them are no longer with the business. They've gone on to lead other incredible companies or start other incredible companies. But if they called me, I would drop everything at a moment's notice and really try to help them because I think it's that kind of deep bond that we build. And I have to say, but my Series B team, Series B plus team is just as extraordinary,

just very different. I think we professionalized, that's the word to use here. It's just an amazing group of individuals. I always feel that your executive team is like power rangers like I'm always Not rather than thinking about like okay, who's the best person to lead that particular department? That's obviously important But I'm thinking about okay. I've got my I've got space for let's say six people around the table and When we all come together like are we making magic together or are we just all each individually very good at our own jobs?

And I never want the latter. I always want the former. That's how I've really approached it. And, you know, I think we have an amazing executive team. That's dope. I agree, man. You need entrepreneurs. When?

There is no room for ego. Zero. Zero. Zero, zero, zero. And like, I'll tell you what the true test of that is. If you suggest like moving some department to another person, and if they're like, no, no, like I wanna keep that department, I'm always like, get that person out of here. My executive team is always like,

I think it would make more sense for this person to report into you. Or, but I think that person should report into me. And they're always really thinking about, like, what is the right answer for the business, as opposed to what is the right answer for me, myself, and my career. And when you find that, you see that you can do a lot of magic together. So what's your advice for people, I'm just assuming based on what I'm listening to,

that you built a very lean operation and you didn't really hire too much. What's your advice for people on how to build their team strategically but build it lean, but also building it so that when it is time to go to the next level that you've kind of thought that out. This has sometimes come to bite me, so I don't always recommend it, but I tend to always look internally first to see what talent I have before I look externally.

And I think that's good for two reasons. I think first of all, it's important to show that you can have career progression and development in your own company. Our average tenure for, I think our current team is, don't quote me on this, but I think it's pretty close to five years. So I don't want to create a company where people are kind of coming and going

every two to three years. Like that's not how I want to run a business. I want people to feel like they can build a career here. So I always look internally. Actually, it's not even try. We always look internally before we look externally. Then when we feel like, okay, actually the skills that really

doesn't exist inside the company, then I often will try out a consultant or a freelancer first, which gives me usually a much better sense of what it is that I could get if I were to look outside. I think when I have hired too fast is when I've made my biggest mistakes, and then you have to go and lay people off or fire them, which is actually the most demoralizing thing for the team that remains. And they get a lot of questions around it. So I would say, I don't, again, I'm not a big fan of the hire fast, fire fast.

I'm a big fan of the hire slow, look around you, make sure you don't have the talent internally, hire consultants, hire freelancers, make sure you've got the right role. And then also fire fast if it doesn't work out. That mistake that you said where you actually had to let people go because you've been there, how did you do that? As graciously as you possibly can.

And it is a terrible feeling. And I've done it multiple times. And it really never gets easy. But it is obviously much, much harder for the person who is receiving it. And it is never the time to go over all the things that you wish they could have done better. It is the time for you to kind of, I always say if you're going to have to, if you're going to fire someone, that is your opening sentence.

Today is your last day at X company. And then make sure you can set them up for success in their next recruiting process. That is my advice is to be as concise as possible, make it very clear what is happening that day, and really to wish them well on their next journey. I have never been fired, luckily, but I have been at companies where things just didn't work out and it was,

so I left. I know that I could have been successful in a different environment, but I couldn't be successful in that environment. I do try to remember that for everyone for whom it doesn't work out at MM. They will be successful somewhere else, just not here. And that is OK. That happens. So when you said to help to set them up for future,

so did you already have contacts for them to talk to a consultant? Had you already talked to the consultant about the people? How does that work? We've done several things. In COVID, when we had to do mass layoffs, we created essentially an entire resume packet of all the people who said that they wanted to be a part of it and sent them to investors

and contacts that we knew who had other companies in their portfolio who wanted to hire. I've also introduced people who we had to let go to other entrepreneur friends of mine who I knew were looking for people and try to make active introductions. Then last but not least, I always say, look through my LinkedIn if there's anyone you want to talk to, more than happy to at least ask if I can make an introduction.

I think there are tangible ways you can help even if you're not like a big established company who can set them up with a recruiting firm. I think there are a lot of other ways to use your network to at least let them know that you're there should you decide, should that person decide that they want help with their next search process. What would be your advice to somebody who's looking to start a business today? Because starting a business when you and I started is like light years different. I know. I was like, those are like the dinosaur ages, right? I know.

But no, no, no, no. It's a good question. And so I will give the advice that I give a lot of other entrepreneurs, which is get a side job, get a side hustle, whatever that is. For me, it was tutoring. So I tutored for the first two years of working on M.M. LaFleur because what I didn't want to have happen was, first of all, I didn't want to use any of that $72,000 to pay for myself, which if I was living in New York City and if I wanted to use that $72,000 to pay for myself, which if I'm, I was living in New York City and if I wanted to use

that $72,000, I could have like, it could have gone like that in a year. So I started tutoring. And so basically my data, my work schedule was I would be working on the business, running to factories, running to meet people all the way up until maybe 4pm.m. And then 4 p.m. till 7 p.m. I was tutoring. And then I would hop online and work on my business after seven, but I had those three hours dedicated to tutoring and made honestly decent money, like enough to survive in New York City and pay rent. And I mean, I wasn't doing anything fancy.

I didn't go on a trip or anything like that, but I made ends meet. I think that was a prudent strategy. I mean, it wasn't a strategy at the time. It was just a way I survived. But in retrospect, it was a very clever strategy because I felt like I could keep going, working on the business for as long as I needed to,

as opposed to working with this arbitrary timeline. I often hear people say like, well, I've got $50,000 saved up. So when I run out of the $50,000, I'm going to go do something else. And I was like, but what if you're just like, what if you're just getting going? And I never wanted to be panicked about not running out of money. So I mean, it could be anything. Starbucks offers amazing benefits. Like, go work at Starbucks while you work on your business. And then the other thing was, I feel like in startups in the early days, there's a lot of downtime,

because you're waiting for a lot of other people to get back to you. There's a lot of quiet time, and people tend to panic during the quiet time, thinking like, oh my God, I'm just like not working hard enough on my business. Let me keep, let me do something. And I think that ends up being wasted time.

So knowing that you're gonna have that downtime, like what other work could you be doing? You know, you don't need to be a startup founder and raise a million dollars out of the gate to be an entrepreneur. That is like really not the only way and actually probably the least likely way to get a business. Exactly, I was like, that's super unrealistic these days.

Totally. And yet like when you read Business Insider or what have you, it makes you feel like that is how everyone is starting a business and it's just not true. It's not because most of the time, it still baffles me when I hear people start businesses and they like come out the gate raising like $5 million and it, first of all, it, it upsets me sometimes. And second of all, second of all, it's just not realistic. You know, it's not, man, I love talking to you.

I like it. It's, I always love talking to you though, because I love how really you are. You know, and I love how human you are. And you're just a really special person. So thank you so much for your time. It means so much for me coming from you. Thank you. That's all for this episode of Your Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres.

Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to Your Next Move on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your Next Move is a production of Inc. and Capital One Business.