Your Next Move - Building the Best Entrepreneurial You

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Patrick Dossett, co-founder and CEO of Madefor, talks with Bea Dixon about how his time in the Navy SEALs prepared him for founding his own startup and his tips for success. Discover ways to think differently about how you lead and grow your business.

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audio edition, produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move, audio edition, produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between Bea Dixon and Patrick Dossett, co-founder and CEO of Madefor. In their conversation, they explore some really diverse topics with a heavy emphasis on mental health for founders and how to manage burnout. As a former Navy SEAL, Patrick shares some invaluable insights into managing time and energy as a founder. And now here is Bea's conversation with Patrick Dossett. Enjoy. Hi, Patrick. I'm so excited to be talking to you. I'm fired up. This is going to be great. Yes, always going to be great.

So look, it was recently National Mental Health Awareness Month. What was that like for Made For? I'm just getting right into it, but I wonder, did you guys see any movement? Did you see more people joining? It's a big month for us. It's rare we have an opportunity to make mental health front and center part of the discussion. And it's something that's very important to us and clearly to our members. And so people are primed to receive mental health messages that month. And so it was great for us. We ran a mental health text challenge

and we had thousands of people participate. And it's just, it's a lot of fun to get people into action around some foundational habits around mental health and then to see them see the effects of their efforts. So we really enjoyed that. We got tons of great responses from people that were going through. And yeah, it was a lot of fun.

That's amazing. So look, I joined, I joined Made For, but I haven't like activated yet. It's all right. You're exactly where you're supposed to be. That's what we tell all our members. For sure, for sure. But I am excited.

My brother joined Made For when you guys first got started. And I remember him being in his classes around drinking water and hydration. I just thought that it was so cool, you know. And then when I found out I was going to be talking to you, I was so excited. I was like, I need to do this. Like, I really, really, really need to do it. So I just love your program, and I think it's really amazing. Thank you.

It's kind of a full circle moment for me. Sai was one of our first members, and he said something as he was going through our month on hydration. And it seems very topical and superficial. All right, we're focused on drinking water. But Sai said something that I thought was pretty powerful. He said, you know, made for in the work that I'm doing right now means more to me than anything else right now. And at the time, there was a lot of stuff going on across the country that was creating uncertainty, that was just creating challenges for people. And so to have Sai share that and to share what it meant for him to grab a hold of something that he could control, something small that he could do that would have an effect for him, was really special.

And it was cool to see him show up and to share messages like that because in doing so, he gave confidence to our other members as well to do the work and to recognize that the work is worth doing. It is. I mean, drinking water especially is is essential. I love that. I love that your program starts with that. You know, it's like we're made of water. So like that needs to be like one of the number one things that we do in a day. And I, and so for everybody watching, Simon is my brother and my co-founder and that's who Patrick and I are talking about. But yeah, but I think it's beautiful. I'm so excited. So what is Made For? Because we just jumped right in like everybody knew what we were talking about. What is Made For and what is, it's a passion project, a mission project that my co-founder and I started working on about five years ago together. And the idea was, can we deliver a program that helps people show up better for themselves and the world around them? to direct their attention and effort, small ways to get into action that are backed by science that help them not only create better habits, but also build better mindsets that allow them to live their life better than that was a mission worth pursuing.

And so we started working on it in earnest about five years ago, brought along a whole bunch of really smart people, people from Stanford and Harvard and National Institute of Mental Health to help us build this program. And this is what we ended up with. We ended up with something where we started by drinking water, maybe the simplest of all things that everyone can do,

but pretty profound when you find or you help people get into consistent, positive pursuit over a sustained period of time. Some big things come from that. That's beautiful. What would you say is, what would you say since starting Made For, some of the, I'm sure that you've had a ton of learnings, but what would you say were some of, or what was the defining moment, you know, once you got started, even just maybe once you just barely got it off the ground, what was the moment that you knew that this was going to be a winner, you know, that it was going to work? Yeah, well, I will tell you, every single day I wake up and I'm sure in your shoes as a founder as well, you wake up and you never feel like you've arrived, that every day you have to earn, you have to earn your keep and prove to your customers and

your members, you know, why, you know, why a relationship with you is worthwhile and beneficial. I think, you know, one of the things that I have learned or just grown more and more appreciative of over time is that when we first started MadeFor, I was thinking that we're going to bring a whole bunch of scientists and experts together, and we're going to give people information, and we're going to be people's guides to helping unlock well-being potential and live their best life. And I think what I've realized in the course of running MadeFor of these last several years is that everyone is dealing with something. It doesn't matter if it's a pandemic, if it's loss of a loved one, if it's divorce or unemployment or losing their home

to a fire or terminal illness, all things that our members have faced or are currently facing, everyone is navigating a unique challenge. And what I've grown more appreciative of is that there is not one way to do anything, right? We all have our own unique path and MadeFor's job in that process is to help people become their own best guide,

to give them some overarching principles of the science of wellness and performance and how we can, some big principles on how these things can play out in someone's life. But at the end of the day, a person has to do the work to figure out what works best for them. And that solution is going to be unique to the individual. So I think when we first started this company, it was very much, we're going to figure out all the best answers. We're going to give people the information and we're going to give people the recipe to success. And over time, what I've appreciated is that we're simply helping someone else become their own best guide so that ultimately they don't need anything. They know

what works best for them and they're the arbiter of their own truth. And that's, it's been a, it's been a cool realization. And one, again arbiter of their own truth. And that's, it's been a, it's been a cool realization. And one, again, I just grow more and more appreciative every single day that passes. I so get that. Because when you start your company, you're like, it's going to be huge. Everybody's going to understand it right away, you know? And then you're like, wait a minute, that doesn't work. So yeah, so I totally, I totally get it. So, Made For is all about forming habits, right? rest, nature, social connection, movement, breath, all things that we intuitively know are good for us, or maybe that our grandparents have told us, hey, you know, you need to get outside more, you need to do this, or make sure you look people in the eyes. Things that we know are just good for

us, but maybe for one reason or another, they're oftentimes the first thing that we skip over as we look to grab onto a fad or a quick fix or some hack. And so we focus on this foundation, but engaging the foundation in such a way that not only do you build better habits, but that you also cultivate a better mindset. And that mindset, I think, is almost upstream of everything that you do action-wise. And it's certainly something that I grew really appreciative of during my time in the SEAL teams, just seeing the role that someone's mindset plays in helping them perform better, be not only a better teammate to others, but to be their best teammate to themselves that they can possibly be.

Yeah, I heard you. I listened to some of your podcasts, and I liked how you talked about, when you were talking about literally you're in charge of the finish line. You know, so like it could just be, I just need to make it to the next two minutes. I just need to make it to the next day. I just, you know, so I love your frame of thinking around that, which goes back to what you were originally talking about with people have to do, you guys are literally just the conduit, right? You're there, and then they have to take it and make it their own. I want to get to your Navy SEAL story in a second, because it's really amazing. That just needs its own time. How does a human get started

with Made For? On top of that, if there's a human who can't necessarily afford the program, what are some things that you would tell them to help with maybe hydration and moving and having gratitude? Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is from an accessibility standpoint, we have, and since the very beginning, reserved about 4% of all of our memberships for fully funded scholarships. So if someone really wants to do Made For, you can get on our website and you can apply for a scholarship and there's a good chance that you'll get picked up. So I encourage everyone to check that out. In fact, at the height of the pandemic, if we can say we've experienced a height, we were getting thousands

and thousands of applications every month for scholars. And that's one of the reasons why we changed our model. We used to ship physical kits out every month and it was a very, it was an expensive program to put on and it was a costly program for someone to do. And the number of applicants we were getting, the desire that we saw for people to access these tools and practices forced us to go back to the drawing board and say, how can we reimagine this and make it more accessible for more people? So we feel like we've got a great program now. It's just a few dollars a month for anyone to access. But again, if that's out of reach for someone, please check out the scholarship. We never want price to be the thing that prohibits someone from

getting into action and certainly engaging our program. And for any military people that are listening, veterans or military dependents, we offer the program for free to that community. So just a thank you for your service there. How someone gets started with MadeFor? Tactically, you go to the website and you can sign up for the program and you can get started any day. But I think more important than that is when you begin this program, the first thing that we do is we give you an orientation to the way the program's been designed. We show you how intentionally it's been built and why it's been built in a certain way and why we leverage, why a neuroscientist runs our advisory board. And we think about if we can change the brain in lasting ways, then that means we can change our habits and we can change our behaviors in lasting ways. And that means we can change our habits and we can change our behaviors in lasting ways. And I'll be the first person to admit there's so many programs or so many things

that I've done in the past where I went all in and then I failed to achieve what I hoped to achieve because it just wasn't designed in the right way for me. We designed MadeFor to address that pain point. So you learn about the program and the process. But I think what's cool and what's different about this program is that even though it's a generalized offering, we take everyone through the same steps and the same foundational areas of practice. At the outset, we ask all of our members to set an intention. And that intention is what makes this program relevant to you.

It's recognizing that, again, there's not one way to achieve whatever it is we hope to achieve. There are not, there's not one set to achieve whatever it is we hope to achieve. There's not one set of stressors that we're all under. All of our situations are unique and our values are unique and what we hope to achieve in our lives are unique. And so by walking someone through setting an intention, we help someone start to understand what is that thing that a year from now I want to change. Not I want to lose 10 pounds or I want to run faster or I want to, you know, get this new job, but what is the thing that I want to change about the way that

I'm showing up in the world? And if I can change that, what good comes from it? Why does it matter to my life? What's going to improve around my life? But also, why is it going to improve the lives of those that I care most about? And we use this intention as a way to help inspire people to keep them engaged as they're going through the program. But a funny thing happens is that when someone sets an intention, maybe they want to be more present for their family. They start to notice as they're engaging simple practices like hydration or movement, they start engaging them in such a way that it brings them closer in line with that intention. They find dots that they connect and they say, oh, wow, you know, I'm focused on drinking water

this month, but in paying attention to a small thing I do every day and how it affects me, I'm actually more aware of how I'm present throughout the rest of my day and the other things that I'm doing. And are they bringing me closer to what I care most about or are they taking me further away? And those types of connections and light bulb moments are really profound to see, both for the individual and for us supporting our members as they're going through. So that's how you start MadeFor. And I always tell our members, just trust the process and be open to the discoveries and insights that are going to unfold as you're doing what maybe on the themes, like a very simple set of practices. That's dope. One more question around made for, I mean, I'm probably going to have more, way more than one, but, but I want to get, I want to get into

your history, you know, but how often are you guys meeting as a group? And then, you know, I've, I just heard you say that there's like a daily intention setting. So how often are you, are you meeting as a kind of a team? And do you, I'm assuming that based on when a person joins Made For, they're coming into a team that joined around the same time? Is that how it works? Yeah. So we, we have an online community and a portal and an application where people can access our content, but more importantly, they have an online community and a portal and an application where people can access our content. But more importantly, they can access our community and our guides to get the support that they need as they're going through the program. And so that really exists for someone to lean in or lean out of as they see fit and as they need to touch base or ask questions or get re-energized.

And it's a ton of fun. We have a lot of alumni in there. We've got our guides in there. We've got IHOP in there from time to time. And it's a nice way for someone to get the support they need when they need it. We've really seen that the best way to support someone is to give them a whole variety of touch points and then allow them to choose their own adventure as they need it. That said, twice a month we get together, our members get together online to talk about just connection points and share their learnings and insights and really to inspire one another

and to help each other grow. I get together with our members once a month to share something that I've seen from emerging science or advisors that I'm talking with or new studies that I've uncovered or just a personal experience. And that really, again, is an opportunity for our members to come together and connect with one another. We have people in 46 countries now, which kind of blows my mind, but it's cool to hop on one of these and you see people from ages 17, our oldest member is now 92, people on the other side of the world coming together and really people being maybe a little

bit more vulnerable than they otherwise normally might be, sharing what they're experiencing. And you start to feel and see a level of humanity and connection that really inspires people to continue to do the work and recognize that the work that they're doing matters. And so that's been very cool. And then once a month, we'll do an all-hands meeting where we get all of our members together, we invite the them feel connected and to get them to do the work. Because the one thing that we've seen that stands out more than anything is if we can get someone to do the work, they see the benefits every single time. Wow. And all this started because of your work that you did as a Navy SEAL. Being a Navy SEAL is gnarly. Like that's a... How did that happen? Did you just wake up one day and was like, I want to be a Navy SEAL is gnarly. Like, that's a... How did that happen?

Did you just wake up one day and was like, I want to be a Navy SEAL. Like, how did that... Or did you always grow up wanting to be a Navy SEAL? Yeah, my story, I wish my story was unique. It probably is not. When I was in seventh grade, I think a family member gave me this book,

and it was probably an afterthought, but they gave me this book called Rogue Warrior, which was written by a former Navy SEAL, and it was kind of a mythic narrative about the SEAL teams. And I read this book, and I said, wow, that sounds like a crazy adventure. It sounds super hard and just sounds like a really good time. Like, I have to do it. And so from, from that, like 13 years of age or 14 years of age, it became my focus. That's what I talked about all the time. It's what I work towards. And I was fortunate enough when I was in, when I was a junior in high school and I was sitting down with a college guidance counselor going through a list of schools,

he said, you know, pick what schools you want. And I saw that there was a school called Navy on the list. And I said, oh, I want to be a SEAL. So I picked that. And later when he was going through the list with me, he said, you know, there's some good schools here. There's some schools you can get into. And then there's one school that you don't have a chance at getting into. Your grades are terrible. That's a hard school. And it was the Naval Academy. And so I don't know if he did that on purpose, but he further cemented my desire to go down that path. And I worked really hard and had some good fortune and luck and was able to get a slot to the Naval Academy. And then that set me on my way.

That's amazing how that works, man. It's always incredible when you look back on your life, you know, and you see that everything was always in order, even though it may not, you know, even though you weren't conscious of it, maybe. But like everything that you've ever done has gotten you ready for this moment. And the way that you invest in humanity is just absolutely beautiful. I'm so grateful to be talking to you because this is what makes our world better, right? Like you are literally the definition of be the change in the world that you want to live in. And I just think that it's really incredible

what you're doing. That's so kind of you to share. I think it's such a great point that you make. And it's something that I have to remind myself of, and I'm sure you do as well, that I have to navigate the path that takes. We just try to do our best. But we also have to recognize that this path that we're on is going to lead us to where we're going. And I just, it's something that I, again, I always have to check in with from time to time, especially, you know, as an entrepreneur, some days are much harder than others. And, you know, some days you're on top of the world, you feel like, hey, we've got this nailed and figured out

and everything is going in the right direction. And then the next hour, something else changes. And you're like, the sky is falling. It's never going to work. You know, what am I doing? Where am I going? What have I done with my life to do this? But it's rewarding. It's beautiful. And it's incredible. And it's hard, right? But like, you practiced for hard. Like, when you started your Navy SEAL program, it was like 220 people or something like that. And then it got to what number? Like 10 or 17? 17, yeah. 220 to 17. Can you tell us about that experience? It was surreal. And it was amazing. I mean, you show up to SEAL training on day one, and you're surrounded by some of the fittest people on the planet, people that have worked very hard to get to that point, that have overcome a lot of personal challenges and adversity, and they've jumped through a lot of gates just to make it to day one of SEAL training. And so at the outset, you look around, you're like, wow, there's some

really impressive people here. And you kind of wonder yourself like, wow, you know, I hope I have what it takes to be successful in this training. And as you're going through week over week, the numbers start, the class size gets smaller and smaller. And we have this bell that follows us around everywhere you go. You can, any point in time, you don't want to continue training, you can ring the bell three times and be done. And five weeks into training, I remember we were down to 150. After that six week, we were down to 36 people. And you're just looking around and you're like, wow, all of the biggest, fastest, strongest people, those that I thought, no question, they're absolutely going to make it.

They look the part, they've got the tattoos, whatever, you name it. They were some of the first to go away. And so by the time you got to the end of training, you had these 17 people that you looked at them and they were rather unremarkable looking. You wouldn't have been able to pick them out from a lineup. And it just impressed upon me the role that the mindset plays in performance and the role that some very foundational practices play. I would say that SEALs probably don't use the same, I know for a fact, you're not going to hear a lot of SEALs talking about gratitude, something that is, you know, very extensively covered in positive psychology research. But underlying the vocabulary, the practices are the same.

Can I cultivate an orientation to recognize and celebrate the good, to constantly look at what's working right, what's good about this moment, regardless of what is wrong about this moment or what is bad that's happening. And in that process, by focusing on the good, by trying to find the humor, by trying to find small things that you can affect, you're able to grow your resilience in real time to unlock hidden sources of energy or potential that allow you to continue to go. And that's, you know, it's pretty cool to see that in action. And so SE. And that's, you know, it's pretty cool to see that in action. And so SEAL training is, I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was maybe one of the best gifts I've ever received, but it was incredibly hard. But I think even past my time in the SEAL teams, and you know, now I'm a father of three young kids, all under three. There's not a day that goes by that at some point in the day I don't look for a bell to ring but

the difference between being a parent and being a SEAL is that there's a bell in the SEAL teams there's no bell in parenthood and so you don't have to be a you don't have to be a SEAL to have that mindset certainly my hat's off to any parents that are listening because that to me I think is the maybe the most challenging job there is. I have so many people on my team who have so many beautiful children. And I don't have children yet. I want to. But I'm like, I just don't understand how you're able to do this work. Because essentially, we're all founders within our company, right?

That's how I look at it. We all work together. So that is crazy. All under the age of three, Patrick. My twin girls just turned three next month and my son just turned one. That's beautiful. is they have forced me to practice what I preach, which may be one of the best gifts that they've given me, is that you think about two years ago when this pandemic kicked off and working on a startup, working from home,

trying to do the best. Yeah, no one knew it was going to happen. My wife and kids and I lived in a small apartment. There's the stress of just new babies and just everything. It was a lot. And I think I was forced to practice what I preach. there's the stress of just new babies and just everything it was a lot and i think what i was i was forced to practice what i preach i i couldn't i couldn't simply say all right i have to survive

i've got to make it the next month or i've got to make it make it the next two months and then like once i get to the finish line it'll be okay i had to find a way every day to make that day worth it and to show up the best that I could and to find ways to care for myself and also care for my family and my team and my members. And I feel like a lot of times founders find themselves in a position where they think it's either or. I can either do right by my company or I can do right by my family or I can do right by myself, but I can't do all three. And I would challenge that assumption. And I think as strong as possible, you have to find a way to do all three. Otherwise, you're limiting your ability to do any one of those as best as you possibly can. What is a way that you do all three? Can you give us an example?

Yeah, I would say oftentimes when we think about self-care, we think about the big things that we can do. I need to take a vacation. I need to go to a class. I need to get on a retreat. I need a long weekend. I need to go get a massage. But we lose what works for me is that every morning I start my day by drinking a bottle of water. And I know that that's the first thing that I'm going to do when I wake up. And that is an act of self-care. Comes in a very less than a minute, but I know I'm going to get hydrated at the outset of the day and that's going to set me up better for the rest of the day. Then I go outside. I try to move my body.

I don't focus on exercise. It's not about fitness, but it's just about being outside, I try to move my body. I don't focus on exercise. It's not about fitness, but it's just about being outside, looking at some nature, maybe watching that sunrise if I can, and just feeling into my body and seeing where I'm at today. And what I have found is that those simple practices, that foundation, allows me to be fully present for that first moment that I see my kids. So no devices, no phones, no nothing. I'm just there with my children and present in that period of time. And again, for me, there are these small little decisions that I make and how I'm directing my attention and effort, but they

compound and build so that the rest of the day unfolds in a way where I feel more empowered. I feel like I have more agency, certainly more energy, and that I'm just showing up better for everyone around me. And then you start to see the knock-on effects of that. If I can be a better teammate to my wife and to my kids, then I get that energy reflected back to me. Same for my teammates, for my members. So that's how I think about it. That's amazing. Here's a little tip for growing your business. Get the VentureX Business Card from Capital One and earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. Plus, the VentureX Business Card has no preset spending limit, so your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs. And when you travel, you'll have access to over 1,300 airport lounges.

Just imagine where the VentureX Business Card from Capital One can take your business. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureXBusiness. What is the best way to market your business services in a niche, nuanced way to target multiple industry and market needs? Wow, it's a great question. you're in a saturated market, but if you can find a way to be authentic and have a degree of integrity and honesty in terms of your product, your service, your offering, and have that reflected across all the various touch points, wherever someone may encounter you, then that's

only going to help you set you up for success. You want to have the ability to play the long game on this. And so recognize that, you know, you're not going to convert someone at first touch. But when someone starts to see, oh, wow, okay, maybe this thing that I saw on this advertisement has a certain vibe to it or feeling in it, something about that I connect with. And then, oh, I see this thing on a newsletter or I see this thing on a social media post, or I see this, I hear a conversation from the founder in this forum, pretty soon you'll get a couple of touch points. And then very quickly, someone will realize like, oh, wow, this is different. This is a company that I want to be affiliated with, that I want to support, and then ultimately one that's going to improve my life. Because at the end of the day, I think that's what all customers are looking for. How can you

make my life easier, better? And that's what I would just say, authenticity. I completely agree with you. I don't believe in just trying to sell people things. I think that it needs to come from a place of being human, especially if you make products for human, even if that product comes in the form of a service. It needs to start off human, right? And it needs to start off authentic. And there needs to be depth to it. It can't just be,

I make vagina care products. So it can't just be just the attributes of what we do. Like, I want to actually serve you education, love, kindness, humility. And then, by the way, I make feminine care products, you know, so I completely agree with you, you know. Your comment reminds me, I remember one of the calls that I had with one of our beta testers when we were first launching Made For, and this woman had been going through the program and did a call with her, and she was sharing feedback around the packaging and the experience and, you know, all different things. with her and she was sharing feedback around the packaging and the experience and, you know, all different things. But everything that she was saying was very, you know, very middle

of the road and understood it made sense and was super grateful. And then the whole time I was bracing for her, where's the, I know there's something that's bad that she's going to say that's just going to, you know, take the wind out of my sails. And at the end of the call, we're getting ready to be done. And she said, oh, I've got one more thing. And I just, I was like, oh, here it goes. I'm going to brace myself. And she said, I've got to commend you on something. I said, oh, what's that? She said, it takes a lot of guts. It takes a lot of guts to charge someone $60 a month. I think we were charging at the time. It takes a lot of guts to charge someone that amount of money and then tell them to drink water. But she said, I commend you on it because it works and what you've put out there works and it's effective. And that is the most important thing. And I was

just like, it was the first time that I felt almost I had been seen. You can have all of the greatest intentions and the greatest science and do all the hard work. But ultimately, the market gets a vote, the member gets a vote. But to hear someone reflect back that they could see why we did the things that we did and that it worked and it was effective for them meant the world. And so, to your point, people love stories. They love to feel moved and connected to the companies they are working with or the founders that they are following. But at the end of the day, where you get the greatest effect is when those stories also pair with a product and a service and an offering that works.

And ideally, you want to hit both of those to deliver the best possible experience. I completely agree. What were some of the other learnings that like while you guys were building this, or actually even different than that, what were some of the mistakes that you were like, okay, we shouldn't do this again? So many mistakes.

Let's see, so many mistakes. I can tell you at one point in time, and this is a little bit embarrassing, but... It's okay. It's just you and I talking right now. And honestly, Patrick, listen, when you want to start a business, there is nothing that you can't try. There's no place that you can't go. You can't be worried about being embarrassed.

You just have to be like, okay, cool. That didn't work. That move, you know, So don't worry about that. So I remember working on getting the program up and going and getting all the sourcing and the supply, you know, all the suppliers in place and going back and forth on designs and down to the smallest of details

is the hourglasses that we have. Are they within the minute for an hour time sandglass And testing all these little details that you pay attention to. And I feel like you did a really great job. The one thing that I did not, never crossed my mind, never just, I didn't think about for whatever reason, is that, and I didn't think about it until the office that we're working out of, the security guard came in one day and he said, hey, there's an 18-wheeler outside and they've got a delivery for you. And I said, oh, great. Yeah, these are our kits because we were shipping these physical kits out every month. And so I walked outside and the truck driver got down and he said, all right, I've got 12 pallets for you. Where would you like me to put these pallets? And they were all flat, unbuilt kits. So each one of our kits, I think our first kits,

had something like 37 parts to them. And so we had to build these physical boxes, construct them, and put paper, and put the tools in, and the publication, all these things. And I had these 18 pallets. I had nowhere to store them. I didn't know how we were going to sell. I had 165 people in our first class that was getting started,

and I was like, how are we going to do this? And I remember building the first kit. It took 35 minutes to assemble one kit. And I called my friends at the time. I said, can you all come in and help me? My back is against the wall. I had an oversight. I didn't think about how long it was going to take to assemble these kits. And so at one point in time, I had a Stanford professor. I had two retired NFL athletes.

I had my brother. I had my two employees at the time. And then I think two interns, all assembling kits. And it's got to be the most expensive kit assembly operation on the planet because it was taking us 30 minutes to build these. But I wouldn't, as again, that was part of my path that I had to walk in order to get to here. And I wouldn't trade it because in that process, we were able to get really close to what was the experience of our members and what matters to them and what doesn't matter to them. And how can we make sure that we're always focusing on giving more to them of what matters and subtracting out what is not essential or what isn't making a difference. And so that's just a small thing. I would say the other thing that I didn't fully appreciate when launching this,

oh yeah, not an insignificant thing. I would say the other thing that I didn't appreciate, and again, I went to business school after leaving the military and took a number of marketing classes, but for whatever reason, the customer acquisition cost is not something that ever crossed my mind. I thought if I build this amazing program and offering and we serve people really well, then people are just going

to come and it's just going to work and we don't have to worry about discovery. But I quickly learned that discovery is part of the process, that you can build the greatest thing in the world, but if no one knows about it, then no one's going to know about it. And so that was something that I had to navigate. And, you know, I think every business owner, especially over the last couple of years, you know, is working through that. So your co-founder is Blake Mycoskie, founder and owner of Tom's. What was his take on kind of the way that you were thinking about business because he had had so much experience and so much success? What were those moments like? It was interesting. And I think this is part of these learnings is that, again, there's no one way to build a company and past success doesn't necessarily imply future success, right? And so part of building made for was learning about what is relevant from Blake's past experience, what's relevant from my past experience, and how can we best meet the challenges that we're facing today, you know, leveraging the

best of our experience. And so when Blake started Tom's Shoes, he started with a small group of people and brought some shoes back from South America. And right away, he had customers and was making money from the very first day. And so he had something that was working, and his job became, how do I evangelize? How do I tell a story that moves people? How do I make people see that business can be a force for good and that engaging businesses that have a social mission can matter country to the way that I would just say he evangelized across the country and even the world about social entrepreneurship and how to move the world with business and do good through business. So some of those lessons applied, but some of them didn't because we were starting from scratch, right? People want to understand

and know the founder's story. People are interested in Blake. People may be interested in my story as well, but that only gets you so far. Then you very quickly have to explain, all right, what is it you're selling me today? Why does that matter? Why do I need that?

And when you're in the space that Made For is in, that can be a challenge. And that's something that I think we've learned a lot about how to talk about not only what we're selling, but how we serve people and why it's something that it's worthwhile for people to engage in. And we continue to work on that. Yeah, it's definitely worthwhile.

How do you suggest that we find balance in our crazy lives? And with everything that's happening in the world, from bringing products in overseas to, you know, just burnout and all those other things. The first is be cognizant of your runway, because the amount of time that you have available to you dictates how you should be spending your time and where you should be putting your effort. And so that's the very first thing. Look, if you run out of capital, if you run out of runway, then the game's over and there's really not much you can do with that. So be cognizant of how much time you have and then focus your effort and attention on the things that are going to matter most to your business. Understanding what those,

and being hyper-focused on what those things are that are within your control, that are the biggest priority for your business and is gonna move the needle for your business, do that. I think in times of uncertainty, in times of stress, there is an incredible opportunity. And if you engage it the right way, you're gonna come out of this an even stronger business. It's gonna force you to focus on those one or two things that, again, matter most to your business and get really, really good at that.

So when the marketplace becomes more friendly or the marketing situation becomes easier to navigate, you're going to be better positioned and you're going to have a finer point on what it is that you do, why you do it, and why people should engage it. So there is no destination that the journey has to become the destination, right? We have to find a way to reward every single day, both do right by our businesses, do right by our teammates and our customers, but also do right by ourselves. And what I tell my team all the time is that there's no guarantee that MadeFor is going to be around six months from now. We don't know if it's going to be around six years from now. And there's no certainty for anyone on the team that they're going to be at MadeFor forever, myself included. But what I do want our teammates to recognize, and I want

everyone to realize, is that every day that you spend in this company needs to be worth it, right, in and of itself. That you need to find a way to do work that matters to you. You need to find, you need to see the returns on your effort. You need to recognize and see that you're serving something bigger than yourself, but that you're doing so in a way that's sustainable so that you don't get to the end of the day and feel like you're broken down and you just need to make it to the weekend, but rather that you're lifted up by the work that you've done and that you're growing personally and professionally at the same time. And so that comes in small moments. I think if you take the steps and you're clear on your vision and you're moving with integrity, the world's going to conspire in your favor. There are going to be all these moments of serendipity that just start happening and you're like, wow, that happened at just the right time. What good fortune, what good luck. But oftentimes, you know, luck and hard work go well together. This burnout thing is a real thing, right? So Capital One did a study

and they found that, what was it, nearly half, 42% of small business owners in the last month have experienced burnout. 24% are saying that they're currently experiencing burnout. I know I am included, and I don't know about you, Patrick, but I'm curious. I am included in that 42% and that 24%. How do you manage your stress? How do you manage your burnout? I understand dealing with the things that we can control and we can't. You and I, Patrick, live very similarly in our thinking. I think very similar to how you think. I'm not a Navy SEAL, but I understand that there's only so much that I can do. I understand what I can control and what I can't. But I am finding myself recently, and not just me,

but my team also, I am finding myself very tired and a little burnt out. So how are you managing that? And are you experiencing the same thing? Such a great question. And I think it's important to make a distinction between feeling burnt out and a true maybe clinical definition of burnout. And the definition of burnout that I've heard and come across that I think maybe is most clear is that if you are burnt out, you have an inability to recover, that you don't ever feel like you can get enough sleep, that you can get enough time off work, that you can get enough personal time or, you know, whatever that thing is for you, whatever the thing is that allows you to recover, you don't have an ability to recover. And if you find yourself in that position, and that can come to varying degrees, but if you really find yourself in that position where you just, you can't recover and you find that every day is a little bit more muted and you're a little bit less inspired, and it's really, really important that you get professional medical care as early as possible.

And so talk to your primary health care provider, let someone know what's going on, because it's really, really important that you get care early and often if you're burnt out or if you're trending in that direction. I would say that I still find that I have an ability to recover so I can get a good night's sleep and I feel like I can create a little bit of buffer between myself and the day or the demands that are placed upon me. But that said, I have seen over the last year and a half, especially with, you know, young kids at home, I've gotten right up to that point where I'm not, I don't think I'm going to break, but I'm pretty close to my wife. My wife is always

asking me, she's like, are you going to break? Like, are you okay? And I say, no, I'm not going to break. But when I do, it's going to be amazing, which I joke that she doesn't find funny. But look, I think everyone has to recognize, it doesn't matter what level of burnt out you are or what level of exhausted you are, everyone has to recognize that what we're doing is hard, that life is hard, and that navigating a pandemic, navigating a startup, being a small business owner, being a parent, all of these things are incredibly hard. The good news is we were designed to do hard things and we can find a way to grow through the adversity that we're facing. But it's not going to come from us just sitting back and thinking our way out of,

you know, thinking our way out of this, right? We can't necessarily let our emotions dictate the degree to which we feel burnt out. We actually have to be in action and be proactive and take steps to recover, to build resilience, to exercise self-compassion and self-care and extend ourselves grace. And it starts with recognizing that, again, life is hard. And then what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about where you're at today to move closer to where you want to be? And I hate to, hydration is just such an easy one to come back to, but if you fall into, if you're 1% to 2% dehydrated, and that sometimes can come before your quick to eat, or maybe I didn't eat. And then that's another few percentage points added on to your deficits. And then maybe I haven't been able to move my body, or maybe I've been isolated alone, haven't been able to connect, man, I've got some real headwinds in front of me. And now I have these headwinds, but I also have a really challenging situation that I'm trying to navigate, that I'm trying to get through. And you can see how very quickly that might put your mind into a place of rumination and like, wow, I feel bad and I can't recover and things don't ever work out.

And very quickly you can cycle to a place that's not great. So I always like to say, recognize that life is hard and then decide, what am I going to do about it right now? Can I tend to a foundational need? Can I exercise self-care in some small, deliberate way that's going to buffer me later on against these things? Can I zoom out to a big picture? And this is something that I lean into quite often is like, what's the big picture here? What is it that I care most about? And let me recognize that these small little bumps along the way aren't in any way impacting my ability to be there for my kids, to give my children the best lives that they can, or they're not impacting my ability to continue to engage my members and show up in the world in a way that

I want to show up. So this ability to zoom in and zoom out and to focus on big picture and get inspired and to recognize, and you brought it up earlier via this idea that at the end of the day, we control the finish line. It's entirely subjective and it doesn't, it's not, I got to make it to Friday. Sometimes it's my finish line is I need to make it to the next meal. And once I get to that next meal, I'm going to celebrate the fact that I made it here. And then I'm going to move that finish line again. And I'm going to keep playing this game until I'm in a place where I feel like I can recover, recharge, and then move forward in the way that I want to move forward.

If people only remember one thing about this conversation, what would you like them to take away? If you're listening right now, I want you to know that you are enough and you can get to where you want to go. And it doesn't, it's not going to come in the form of these big swings and big efforts. It's going to come in the form of small steps and that those small steps lead to progress and that progress leads to more momentum and that momentum leads to ultimately setting you on a course that is right for you. So you're enough and you can get to where you want to go, but it's going to require some effort and you can do it, I believe in you Thank you, you're the best man

It's amazing, I really enjoy the conversation, thank you so much for having me on and yeah, this is awesome I look forward to you engaging Made For over the months ahead and serving you Yes, I'm coming I'm coming You know, and I feel you, I'm coming. I'm coming. You know, and I feel you. I'm good, but I need it. So I'm grateful for your program and I'm grateful that it's there because not just I need it, but we need it. So thank you so much, Patrick. I appreciate your time. That's all for this episode of Your Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder.

Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to Your Next Move on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your Next Move is a production of Inc. and Capital One Business.