Your Next Move - How The Lip Bar Founder Melissa Butler Turned Rejection Into Success

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Today’s episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between host Bea Dixon and guest Melissa Butler. Melissa is the CEO and Founder of The Lip Bar -- a vegan lipstick company catering directly to women of color.  In their conversation, they cover Melissa’s transition from the corporate ladder to becoming a lipstick chemist. Plus, her experiences with retail chains and direct to consumer marketing, and what it means to be focused on African American women while remaining inclusive to all.

With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with no preset spending limit, your purchasing power adapts to meet your business needs. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at capitalone.com slash VentureXBusiness. Terms and conditions apply. I'm Sarah Lynch, and you are listening to Your Next Move,

audio edition produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move, audio edition produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between host Bea Dixon and guest Melissa Butler. Melissa is the CEO and founder of The Lip Bar, a vegan lipstick company catering directly to women of color. In their conversation, they cover Melissa's transition from the corporate ladder to becoming a lipstick chemist, plus her experiences with retail chains and direct-to-consumer marketing, and what it means to be focused on African-American women while remaining inclusive to all. Hi, Melissa. It's so good to talk to you. I've been so excited for this conversation. Hey, B, you know you have my heart. So I am excited

to just talk very candidly. I'm happy to be here with you today. Me too. Some of these things that I'm going to ask you, it's funny because Melissa and I are best friends. We love each other dearly. But some of these questions, I don't even know about you. So I'm really excited to hear some of these things, but I also have on like a full lip bar face. And you look fantastic. Thank you. It feels so, cause you know, I don't love makeup, but it doesn't feel like I have makeup on, which is like, that's the goal. That's, that's the point to like, make it feel like second skin like I I hate the cakey look I hate the cakey feel like I'm a person who when I walk into my house

I take all of my clothes off and that's how I need my makeup to feel right so let's start at the very beginning like young, when you're like a kid and you're growing up. What is your life like? What kind of aspirations? Like what did you want to be when you grew up? Oh, you know, I had a really rough childhood, actually. So both of my parents were incarcerated and I don't really talk about that a lot. So I don't even know that I was dreaming. And I think that as a 10-year entrepreneur right now, I am understanding and noticing the effects of my childhood and how it sort of like puts you in this place where you might think small,

but the entire point of entrepreneurship is to think big and go after like everything that your heart ever desired. And so as a kid, when you have that sort of like environment, I think that I was probably like craving normalcy and stability. At one point, I wanted to be a sports agent because remember the movie Jerry Maguire, like, show me the money. I just wanted people to show me the money. And then I wanted to be a heart surgeon at some point. I don't even know where that came from, but I could have never imagined that I would be a beauty entrepreneur because most beauty entrepreneurs come from like a makeup background. They were either makeup artists or makeup enthusiasts. Like they grew up loving to play in makeup. And that was not my story. Like I started my career

on wall street, not like putting on makeup in the mirror. Right. And so, that's real. The fact that your mommy was away and incarcerated, who were the women or the humans that you looked up to that like gave you something to look forward to or potentially mentored you or were like your second mom, you know, mom and dad. Did you have that? So I have always believed in a couple things. I think that everything is about exposure. So you can really only like reach for what you see. Now

that, that site doesn't have to be immediately in front of you. It doesn't have to be someone I know or I talk to. So I've always had these mentors from afar. But beyond that, I had a cousin who was an entrepreneur. And so I grew up in high school working at his clothing store. He used to sell throwback jerseys in the mall. And I became like his best saleswoman. And I think that when you learn how to sell something, you learn about the human psyche. You learn about marketing. You learn about human motivation.

And frankly, you learn about like self-esteem. And so watching my cousin be an entrepreneur, he used to go to China and source goods and bring them back and sell them in the mall. And then he like he basically let me in on what I know today as his supply chain. And he let me in on like his margin. Like and it was so simple stuff. Like he kept it in one of those like old school black and white journals that you would use in like your science class. And he would just write down like how much he paid for this, how much we were going to sell it for and like how much profit he made. He wasn't factoring in like how much he was paying to go to China to source all of this

stuff. But it was like that immediate like exposure gave me the knowing and the confidence to say like, oh, wait, I can be an entrepreneur too because my cousin is an entrepreneur. And so if he can do it, why can't I do it? And I'll never forget, it was like Christmas Eve one year. And you know, that's like the craziest day in the mall because all the last minute shoppers are there. And it was probably like the most money he had ever made in that like year. And he had me count the register at night. And it was so life-changing because I think it was like $26,000 in the register. And I was like, I was like, he's rich. Also, I couldn't believe that he trusted me. So it was like that exposure

and that trust and just the knowledge that he allowed me to have by just being there changed my life completely. Wow. So did that spark the entrepreneurial bug in you? Like, did you leave that being like, I want to I want to actually have a business? And did it stick? Um, not really. So I think I left there thinking that entrepreneurship was cool. And I think that I left there knowing that if I cool. And I think that I left there knowing that if I wanted to be an entrepreneur, I could, but I didn't have like my immediate

sights set on entrepreneurship. And after that, I went off to college. I went to Florida A&M University. I studied business marketing, but at the, I was just like following the American dream to figure out, you know, what am I supposed to do? I'm trying to be a productive citizen of society. Like, I know what the other side looks like from my upbringing. So like, I'm going to try to follow the path that says like, if you do these things, if you follow these steps, you will experience success. And so I went to college not knowing what I should major in, not knowing anything. Frankly, I was just like, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm following the rules.

But frankly, I've always been a rule breaker. So when I got there, I was like, this is weird. And I liked college. I had a fantastic experience. It also changed my life, but I wasn't in college, like feeling inspired to either start a business or start working. My entire goal was just to make money. And like, that is such a dangerous place to be in because when you are only solely focused on the money, that means that you can be bought. That means that you have the

opportunity to like go after any and everything that's shiny. And like, that's not what humanity is about. So I was like, okay, you know, I'm here to make money. I'm going to go work on Wall Street because like they say that people on Wall Street make a lot of money. That's literally the only reason I went. It was crazy. I want to go back for one second. What did you end up majoring in? And did that change a few times? It never changed.

I went to major. I said that I was going to major in business marketing. When I got there, I was like, I want to make money. And so I did business with a concentration in finance. So I had just decided the path. And I think one of my superpowers is decision making. Like I've always been pretty good at like, you know, having clarity and then actioning it. So I was like business finance because I'm going to go work on Wall Street and I'm going to make money. And then I'll live happily ever after.

And what was it like on Wall Street? Did you love it? Hate it? Was it just like a job? It was definitely- That's hard work, man. Wall Street isn't easy. No, Wall Street. So I ended up taking this long test called the Series 7. I did not even know that people could test that long. It was a six hour test, which is so ridiculous. I think that testing is like one of the most humbling experiences because like you're letting someone else or this like computer decides your fate, but I did it. And I hate it. Wall street. Like I couldn't be myself. People were judging my hair. People were judging my skin. People were judging just the way I speak. People were like, are you from the South? No, I'm not from the South.

I'm from Detroit. And maybe Detroiters have a little twang. I don't know. Or maybe I picked this up in Florida when I was in college. But it was absolutely a place where I felt like I needed to get through with it. And I am a firm believer, like at the lip bar, I tell my team this all the time, like, listen, we work way too closely together for you to hate your job. You spend so much time on this for you to hate your job. If you do not love your job, you should absolutely leave your job because life is short. And so I try really hard to build an environment where people can, number one, just be themselves. And number two, be fulfilled in the work that they are doing. Because I never want anyone to experience what I experienced on Wall Street, just not feeling like I was enough or not feeling like what I did mattered in the world.

So, okay. So you're there. How long do you end up staying on Wall Street? And then, so this is a two-prong question. How long did you end up staying on Wall Street? And then did you keep your job a little while, while you were building the lip bar? Did you keep your job a little while while you were building the lip bar? Did you just stack up so you could just peace out when you were done? I ended up working on Wall Street for four full years. I started the lip bar at like month 18. So like let's say a year and a half, almost two years in. And I stayed there like for another year and a a half, trying to take the business off the ground while also collecting my check because nobody was coming to save me. I didn't even know that I could

get financed for my business. And I think it's becoming more apparent now. But in 2012, when I launched the Lip Bar, nobody was talking about VC funding. Nobody was talking about an angel round. Nobody was talking about friends and family. I didn't have any friends or family who could give me money. So that job, you know, like who's going to give me money? Like when I hear entrepreneur stories that are like, you know, I raised a family and friends round for like $50,000. I'm like, that's really beautiful, but that is so inaccessible for most people because like, I can't just borrow $50,000 from people that I know. So like I needed that job to like fund the business. And so I kept it. I saved up what I thought would be like a year's worth of my expenses. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna quit my job because if I want my business to give me 100%,

I have to give it 100%. Saved all this money. The money ran out in like six months. It was so ridiculous. And I'm living in New York City, which New York City, we all know is a very expensive place to live. Me and my roommate, who's my business partner and my creative director, we all know, is a very expensive place to live. Me and my roommate, who's my business partner and my creative director, we were Airbnb-ing her room and we

were sleeping together in my bed to just pay our bills because it's not like the business took off. We didn't have any marketing dollars, but we always had our story. We always had like our passion. We always had our customers who we believed in. And because we were serving them so authentically, they believed in us. And so I think our first year in business, we made like $26,000 B. And when I tell you, I was so proud of that $26,000. I was like, oh my God, this is almost half of my salary. And this came from my bare hands. Cause like the first three years of the business, every single

product came from my bare hands. So it was just, you know, entrepreneurship is wild. It's wild and it's beautiful and it's scary. And sometimes you will be so poor that you're letting strangers live in your house with you and hoping that they don't kill you will be so poor that you're letting strangers live in your house with you and hoping that they don't kill you at night. But you know, it's a fun story. It's going to be fine. It's going to be all right. We're going to be cool. We're going to eat some ramen noodles and we're going to call it a day. Yeah. Was the lip bar your first entrepreneurial journey? So actually, I stole the lip bar from my first idea. My first idea was the soap bar.

And I wanted to make all of these like artisan soaps and, you know, make them like smell beautiful and look beautiful and sprinkle rose petals in them. And then what happened was I was calling one of the suppliers for like my materials and I was looking for molds because, you know, like soaps come in all these cute shapes. And he was like the guy who was on the other end of the phone. I wish I knew his name so that I could thank him. He was like, wait, is this for soap or is this for lipstick? And in that split second, B, I was like, lipstick. I didn't know anything about making lipstick. I didn't even know that I could get lipstick molds. And immediately when he gave me the option, I just chose lipstick. And part of the reason is because I have always thought that if you look good, you're going to feel good. And then ultimately you have the ability and the confidence to go

out into the world and do good, period, hands down. And I know the power of like lip color. I think that if you put on a red lip, it changes your whole look. It gives you confidence. Red is a power color. And I've always just admired powerful women. So like when I think about my mom, who was incarcerated for like two and a half years around the time I was like, I want to say six. She came home and was like, yeah, that's a long time. But she came home and just showed me her strength. So I come from a line of women, a long line of women who have always been strong and I've always valued that.

And I was like, wait, if I can like further build someone's strength, if I can further give someone confidence and self-esteem, like I'm gonna sign up for that. I'm gonna hope that everybody still showers if I don't make the soap bar. But I really saw like a clear need, particularly for women of color

to like get poured into in a way that hadn't been happening. I felt like there was a very linear standard of beauty and everybody was trying to fit in it, even when it was so far from you. And like that is why I started the lip bar to change the way people thought about beauty so that they can get up and look in the mirror every single day and be like, I look good. Yeah, I can go. I don't feel like going, but I could go to work. Yeah, that's real. That's real. That's real.

So, okay. So you literally in a split second were like, huh, lipstick. Let's do that. You get these lipstick molds home. How do you go from, like, I remember I used to make honey pot in those, you know, those jars when you go to a barbecue, it's like a, like a three gallon thing. And it got, it has a spigot on it. Like I used to make honey pot in that. What was your, what was your technique for how you made the The lipstick. Oh my God. Oh my God. So I knew nothing about beauty. I am not a chemist. I've never been a chemist. And so my immediate next move was like to learn. So I started reading about cosmetic chemistry. I started reaching out to cosmetic chemists on LinkedIn and like just

asking them for advice. And like, really, it was just like about taking the action. So I bought these pigments, I bought these waxes, I bought these oils and fragrances, and I literally just started mixing them and testing them out. I bought these molds and like lipstick has to like, it has to sort of like get cold in order for the wax to like form. And so people would come over my house and like in my freezer, people will be looking for ice and there will only be lipstick molds because I'm like letting it sit and settle. So I'm, I'm using like a milk frother to like blend my pigments so that it's not chunky and I'm pouring this lipstick and trying it out. And I want to say my first like hundred batches were so bad.

Like it would be so bright in color in the stick, but then it wouldn't show up on the lip. I'm like, what's happening? And like, I'm like, okay, you need to add more pigment. Okay. This doesn't feel smooth. Okay. You need to add more oil.

But after about a thousand batches, I got to something that people actually liked and they were like, this feels good. And then my next thought was like, okay, well, how do I set myself apart? Like now I have a formula, but what's going to be the thing that breaks through the market? And so when we launched, I launched with crazy colors just to make a statement. Because again, my goal was to change the way people thought about beauty. And so people typically thought about like lipstick with like reds and nudes. So I was like, okay, I'm not, yellow, you know, weird shades of brown. Like I had the craziest colors just to say, forget your beauty standards. Like beauty is whatever you make it. Like you are beautiful and you have the choice to decide how you show up every single day. And if you choose to show up in a green lipstick

or in a purple lipstick or in a Tiffany blue lipstick, then that's on you. And it was, that part was so empowering for me to know that I could take my idea to a product, but also it was super empowering to know that I had the ability to change the way people experienced beauty so that they could like have choice. Like I think people need to have a license over their lives. The young humans today have license over their lives. And I love that. I love Gen Z. I know, me too. I love them.

So, all right. So you're doing all this. At what point do you know that you have, like, you know that you have a viable product because it's actually going on and it's working. But like a viable product that humans are actually connecting to. What was the moment that you learned that? It was Fashion Week 2012, the year that we launched, or maybe it was just before we launched. Yeah, it was actually before we launched. And I will never forget this because like I didn't have tickets. I wasn't cool. Like I wasn't going to any shows.

You are so cool. You're so cool. And that's why I'm cooler. But back then, like I wasn't cool enough to be invited to a show like people didn't know who Melissa Butler was and so but I did have the confidence so me and Roscoe went to what was that like Lincoln Center where a lot of the shows are and there's a huge square in the middle of that and you have all these photographers who are just standing and waiting for celebrities to come out so that they can take pictures of them in their outfits. And so Roscoe and I decide to go and we're like, we're going to wear some of the colors.

And I think I wore a green lipstick and Roscoe wore blue lipstick. And the way that paparazzi was like running up to us asking like what we were wearing and like, you know, how what made us decide these colors really gave me like the confidence to say, wait a minute. This is something that we need. It is something that is so different. And it's something that, frankly, no one else is doing. So we have, we have room here because like the way I felt like I was Beyonce in that moment, I was like, clearly this is a business. And then the beauty editor of Essence Magazine, her name is, was Corinne Corbett. She walked up to me and she was like, I want to feature you on Essence Magazine. And I was like, I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't know how it would show up. And I was like, we haven't launched yet. Like, I don't even have a product yet. I made this in my kitchen. And she said, be at my office on Monday. And I was like, okay.

And I was there and we talked and, you know, know she I'm so impressed and like humble by that experience because this is the beauty editor she didn't send like one of her younger writers to talk to me I was in her office talking to her and the month that we launched we had a feature in essence magazine and I just knew that I was doing something really special. I still did not know how to run a business now. That is a whole nother story, but I knew that we had something. That's incredible. I have an audience question from Elisa Thomas from Thomas Inc. She wanted to know, because we're going to start getting into manufacturing when you like actually started to go to a manufacturer. She wants to know, how do you present your NDA to prototype makers? Like when you're going into manufacturing? I know that yours was more so like in a cosmetic product, but.

Yeah. No, it's a great question because like what's interesting about beauty is like once it's actually on your face, you know, you don't know who made it. A red lipstick on me looks very similar to a red lipstick that another brand could make. So it's rare that you can walk up to someone and say like, oh, that's that particular color from this brand. So we've never really had to think about that from the actual color perspective. But where we really wanted to stand out was our packaging. And we have this really intricate, really cool packaging that we made custom molds of, and we got that made in China. And it was so frustrating because that supplier actually started selling our mold that I paid for to another brand. And that's when I learned that I needed to have legal things in place that prevented that or agreements in place that prevented them from selling my design that came

from my brain to another brand. So it is incredibly important to not only have NDAs, like when you are pitching your idea to someone, but also when you actually decide that that is the supplier, making sure that you have clauses that prevent them from selling your design to other brands. And I would just recommend you have a good lawyer who can help you work through that. And I want to warn you, if you are producing things like internationally, American law is very different from like Chinese law. So make sure that you have a lawyer who is well-versed in both and companies who work with suppliers who are overseas so that you can prevent yourself from having like some of the challenges that we had. And then also, if it is like a design, one of the other things that we did, we ended up doing after

the fact is we ended up actually getting a trademark on our packaging design. So like our lipstick bullet, if you see it, it's very beautiful and intricate. It looks like a bird cage or something. Yeah, no one can use that. And if someone is using it in the market, so even if our supplier overseas decides like that they're not going to honor my contract, if someone in this country uses that, I can go after them because I also have a trademark to support me. And these things aren't crazy expensive to get either. Nope. You know, it's literally just the know-how. And I just wanted to add on to that and adding some kind of a non-compete, non-circumvent, kind of all wrapped up into the NDA, which stands for non-disclosure agreement. Not everybody knows that. I don't love acronyms. That's why I felt

the need to say it. Because I'm always like, what does that mean? But yeah, NDAs are like one of the most important things that you can do before you even think about discussing anything about your business, you know? So no, that's real. I'm happy that you just called out really quickly that you're always like raising your hand, like, what is that? Because there are so many people who feel like they have to know and they are too embarrassed that they don't know that they don't ask. And I want to challenge you if you are an entrepreneur or, you know, if you are thinking about starting your business, you are going to have to learn how to be a CEO. You are going to have to learn how to be a leader.

And that requires you being vulnerable enough to say, I don't know how that works. Can you teach me? What does that mean? Like, don't think that because you have like those three letters behind your name that you have all of the answers. And I will recommend that you take this approach with everyone from your team members to your customers, like everyone who is in your little bubble, like be okay with not knowing because like the more you learn, the more you grow, the more you can actually impact your business.

Exactly. And, and, and the way you want to do it is when you start hiring for your business, you want those people to be smarter than you. Yes. 100%. So like, so like when they know, it's like, I don't know. Can you just tell me what that is? But no, it's real because the fact is as an entrepreneur, I don't care what anybody says, nobody really knows what they're doing. Right. We're all just learning on the job and, you know, unless you've done this a million times, but even if you've done it a million times, you just don't know what you don't know. And I think that it's okay to be okay with that. You know, no ego. We're going to take a quick break and be right back.

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Okay, so you're making in your kitchen. At what point does it leave the kitchen and go into a manufacturing facility? Yeah, so there are no rules with this. I would recommend you think about the business that you want to grow. So I was thinking small. I thought that it was okay to manufacture all of my products. And then, you know, I was like, I was a one woman show. I was like doing our social media. I was manufacturing the product. I was shipping our orders. And then as we started to grow, I realized like, wait, you actually don't have time to wear all these hats. Like this is not

the best use of your time. So like one of the very first things I outsourced was shipping. I was like, okay, I can't ship these orders. I can't be dropping off stuff to the post office. I can't be worrying about these labels. And then I was like, oh, well, who's gonna be better at making lipstick? Me or an actual cosmetic chemist? And I was like, this is also not the best use of my time.

Like I cannot spend so much of my time, effort, energy into making these products. Like I don't have a clear innovation pipeline. realized that it was not the best use of my time. And I zeroed in on what I was actually good at. And what I was good at was marketing. What I was good at was storytelling. What I was good at was really connecting with the customers and coming up with those like those big ideas. And so I started going to trade shows to figure out who could actually manufacture this. I started Googling who manufactures for some of my competitors. And you will be surprised how far a Google can take you. Because at the end of the day,

all businesses want to make money. If there is a manufacturer of color cosmetics, you better believe they want more products to manufacture. They want more customers. They want more clients. And some of them say, you know what? I want to work with a small business and help them grow because I know that they will have loyalty. The very first thing that I did, because like when you are manufacturing product, like that takes a really long time, but I had to get this sort of manufacturing off of my back. So what I did first was I reached out to all these suppliers and I started like working on building new formulas with them because what I learned very quickly is like, all of the things that I was doing, none of it was shelf stable. Like I wasn't using real preservatives, you know?

They're like, yeah, this is cute. But you know, do you want people to keep this lipstick in the refrigerator? I know you want this to be all natural, but it's only gonna last, you know, six months. Because everything was just, it was, it's only going to last, you know, six months because everything was just, it was, it was a labor of love. And again, I was not a cosmetic chemist. So in the process of rebuilding my formulas, I went private label, which I would recommend for a small business owner, because it does allow you to sort of test formulas, test new things with your customers to understand what do they want from you. So I reached out to a small cosmetic house and I found some formulas that I

loved and I repackaged them. And it's not like I bought their stuff and then slapped my, you know, moved it into another container. That's not what repackaging means. It means that I bought their products turnkey. I bought their packaging. I bought their formula. And then I designed a label to go on top or I designed print that they could put on top of that package. And that is how we launched lip gloss because we had only had lipstick at first. And I was like, well, let's see if people care about lip gloss. And so I launched that private label. And once it proved itself, I moved that to a manufacturer. And so I know that was a really long answer to the question, but I would recommend that

you think about what is the thing that only you can do? And what is the thing that you do best? And by me tapping into that mindset and that thought process, I was able to let go so many parts of my business that if I was being honest, I wasn't even good at. So, yeah. But it was what it's what you have to do. You know, in the beginning, you have to do everything. You can't you just you know, you can't first of all, you can't afford to go to a manufacturer because they have a minimum order quantity. And so you have to just thug it out unless you can afford it.

And if you can, then you go the chemist and manufacturing route. So I have another audience question from Mukul Khonshu Joyce. Mukul, if I messed up your name, I apologize. Their company is called MK Publishing Solutions, LLC. And they ask, at the beginning of your company, how did you decide which resources, staff, investors, software you needed and what you still needed to learn? That's a really good question. In the beginning, I started solving for my weaknesses. So once I realized what I was good at and I figured I could afford to hire someone who would offset my weaknesses, that was like the first thing that

I ran to. So I knew that I wanted to be really, really creative and that I wanted to do photo shoots often because it's beauty and it's very visual. And so I'm not a photographer. I know nothing about photography. I know nothing about branding in that way. I know it looks beautiful. And so I hire a creative director, for instance. In terms of systems, I think systems was probably one of our most important things as we started to grow. Because if you're like an old school tech person, you might remember the Magento platform that people launched websites on. And it was such a complex system. But I knew that we needed a website because that was the only

way we could sell our products. We weren't launching in retail from day one. So I needed to have a place where people could go and shop the product. So in 2012, it wasn't as simple to put up a Squarespace or a Wix site. I had to build a very custom platform. But I knew that ultimately, I needed to create a distribution channel. So the way I think about it is like, be clear on your goals first, and then back into that. So if I'm like, okay, I want to sell these products to these sorts of people, where are those people? How do I sell it to them? What do I need to sell it to them? What am I able to do? And who else do I need in order to get this done? So it's like, if you start with the end goal in mind and sort of retrace those steps or back into those steps,

like you will have a clear picture of like what you can do, what you can't do, who you need and like what your hurdles are in that process. So it's one thing to say like, oh, I'm going to sell it on a website. Who's going to build a website? Who's going to monitor the website? How does shipping work? How do labels work? Like at one point when we first launched, like I didn't know the Dymo label maker existed. So I was literally printing out my shipping labels, cutting them in half and taping them on our orders, looking at other brands and trying to figure out, okay, how do I do that? Is that something accessible for my price point? Is it something that I can do? And then I realized like, oh wait,

there are whole shipping platforms, like ShipStation, I think was one that we used very early on to like be that aggregate for all of our dot-com orders because like our Magento platform only connected like the sales piece and I needed the sales piece to connect to the logistics piece. How do I get people tracking? Thankfully y'all all of these problems are solved today by Shopify. Okay. So you don't have to deal with a lot of that stuff, but early on, yes, early on, it was like, I had to like take all of these different systems and then figure

out how to connect them. And so, you know, today when I think about, okay, how do I hit this revenue goal? I'm still asking myself very similar questions. What new audiences am I going after? Where are they? What do they care about? How do I properly market to them? Where do they shop? Are we in that level of distribution? How do I get in front of them when they go into the store?

So everything is sort of like, think about that end goal and then back into it. Like from the customer journey perspective, you gotta like get out of like the CEO hat and really put yourself in like the consumer mindset. What are they doing? How are they shopping right now today? And that will solve a lot of your questions. So now let's talk about the lit bar truck.

Like you were bootstrapping all this stuff. It's incredible. What made you decide to create the lip bar truck? I know you went on Shark Tank. We can make that very fast because I know it's something that people ask all the time. Right. So you make the lip bar truck, you're doing the thing with that. And then I want to hear a little bit about your Shark Tank experience and what it did for you specifically around what you wanted from it, because you weren't going there being like, I want to get my product in the hands of the consumer. All right, cool. What are the ways that I can do that? I can do that by launching in retail. I can do that by having like a crazy marketing campaign.

I can do that by having these sort of community events. I can take the product to them. I can do it direct sales. Like there's so many ways. Direct sales is like Mary Kay. But I felt like the most important thing for the business was for people to test the product because I was so confident, like if people try it, they're going to love it. And based on that, I was like, okay, my goal is to get more people using the product, knowing about the product. So I knew that I didn't have the money for a big marketing campaign.

I knew that I didn't have the money to launch in retail. Retail is very sexy. Everybody wants to go on retail. It's like, oh, I want to see my brand in stars. I feel like that's how people think about it. Like, I want to see my brand on shelf. On shelf is fantastic, but it's also very expensive. So I knew that I couldn't do that. I wasn't ready for that. At that point, I was still sort of like manufacturing in very small quantities.

And so I started thinking about like, OK, what what is actually within arm's reach? What can I actually do that is accessible to my budget, accessible to my goals? And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to take my show on the road and I'm going to build a mobile store because I wanted a storefront, but didn't want the rent and constant expenses that come with the storefront. I was like, I'm going to take the show on the road. I'm going to build out a truck that allows me to go from city to city, from college campus to college campus and spread the word of the lip bar, spread the word of these like vegan and cruelty free and beautifully made cosmetic products like these lipsticks that are going to look beautiful on every complexion. This brand that's encouraging you to be your authentic self. I felt like people needed to see it up close and personal. And so we built it, me and my ex-boyfriend, he used to build party buses and we built it. And like, it is probably one of the things that I'm most proud of. Like we went on like a 10 city tour, like literally just like pulling up places, pulling up at like parks, pulling up at,

we did a partnership with Urban Outfitters in DC, like just parking in front of the store. We would roll out a red carpet and like allow people to come on. And it was so innovative at the time, cause this was probably like 2015 that people just like will walk by and they were so confused by it. Like, what is this? Like, yes, I want to try on this lipstick because it's interesting. And it was sort of like that signal to us that there's so much room to be innovative in the color cosmetics category, because what people had typically been experiencing in terms of shopping for makeup was like the counter store approach. Like you go there, you have to talk to someone. There's no music. It's kind of stuffy. You're

expected to know how it works. You're going to spend a ton of money or you're going to go in mass retail and you're not going to have an experience at all. Like you're going to go there and have to figure it out for yourself. Like which one of these colors works for me? And I wanted to create something that was so intimate and so personal. And we built the lip bar truck and I literally love that little thing so much. It was like the little engine that could, I was driving the truck. It's like a 26 or 28 passenger shuttle bus that we just like tricked out and like made really, really cool. But we took that idea onto Shark Tank when we went and they were like, oh, this is a terrible idea. Like everything about this business is horrible. Like you'll never grow. And it was so interesting because I think that that was

the first like public rejection that I've gotten. And a lot of people have told me like, oh, I don't know how you kept going. And it's like, I don't know how I would have stopped. I didn't start my business for them. I certainly wasn't going to end it for them. And back to the humility that's needed in terms of being a CEO or learning how to be a CEO, you have to learn how to fail. You have to be okay with failing. You have to be okay with failing. You have to be okay with rejection because there are going to be things that go wrong in your business all the time. Like literally every day, something goes wrong. And it's like, it's not about the things that go wrong. It's like, forget that. It's about the fact that every time it goes wrong, that's an

opportunity so you can learn to fix it. Like when we get reviews, I was telling my team this, the really great reviews, like, oh my God, the lip bar changed my life. I never knew how to do makeup and you guys made it so easy or this product or, you know, that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. And it's like, oh my God, y'all love me. I love y'all too. But really the most productive reviews are the ones that are sort of mean or really honest, because that means that they really believed in you and you disappointed them. And it is your responsibility as a leader and as a CEO to figure out how do you not disappoint the next person who comes into your business and gives them a shot.

The reality is like the economy is crazy. Inflation is wild. If people are spending money with your business, it is because they trust you. It is because there's something that you did that sparked joy in their heart. And they were like, I'm gonna spend my hard earned money with you.

And if they take the time to leave a review, because people don't leave reviews, like I never leave reviews y'all. So if somebody takes the time to leave a review, because people don't leave reviews. Like, I never leave reviews, y'all. So if somebody takes the time to leave a review, even if it's nasty, like, your job is to learn from that. And so, you know, when I think about Shark Tank, it was great because it gave us so much exposure because they were mean. But also, I learned from it 100%. Mark Cuban said, Melissa, why are you not the face of your business? This part didn't air, but he was like, you should be the face of your business. That's ridiculous. But I used to run

from being the face of the lit bar. I didn't start the business so that people could praise me. I started the business so that I can empower women to praise themselves or to be comfortable in their own skin. But honestly, it wasn't until I really stepped into the business that it started to grow because it's like people needed to see those examples of people being confident or going after their dreams, or they wanted to hear someone championing them. So I loved my Shark Tank experience, but the Lit Bird truck, it changed my life. I love it. I love it. So you've alluded to retail.

Let's go there. So you sent a cold email, cold calls your target buyer, and it actually worked out, right? Can you tell us, first of all, one of the things that I want you to focus on is how you do that and what do you say? Because somebody that's watching this is going to need to know that. And then from there, if you can transition into how that moved from being online into doors, into actual stores? After I did the lip bar truck, I knew that I really understood

the value of people seeing your product and being able to touch it. And I wanted to have a product that was affordable. So Sephora was out. So I've never pitched Sephora, but I was like, I want to create these vegan, cruelty-free, beautiful products, but I want them to be for the masses. I didn't want to have a $30 lipstick. I felt like at my quality, I wanted my quality to be deserved by everyone. So I was like, it has to be Target. Target was the only retailer that I considered at that point. They were the only ones that I pitched. And so I didn't know anything about launching a retail. I didn't have a salesperson, but I knew that that was like the destination for distribution

for the lip bar. So I start Googling. Google was my friend. It is still my friend. Let's be clear. So I start Googling like how to launch in retail. I didn't really get enough information to be honest. So, but I knew that there was an opportunity to pitch them

because like you see them when you go into stores, you see them launching new brands all the time. So I know that they're interested in new brands, but I needed to get in front of someone. I knew that if they tried the product, if they heard the story, if they heard about the community that we were building, they would give us a shot. I started going on LinkedIn and literally typing in target buyer, target buyer. And retail is interesting because buyers move around really often. It was like, you know, every two, three

years you would get a new buyer. So I didn't know who was who, but I found a name and I reached out and I pitched them. And in my pitch, this is important, y'all. In my pitch, I made it so concise and I made it so clear because they don't want to read a bunch of things. They don't want to know all of your backstory. They want to know how your product is going to make them money. At the end of the day, that is what they are there for. Like they want to be able to tell the story on the back end, but ultimately they want to make money. So I was very clear about the white space that I was filling.

White space is basically like how I'm different. I was clear about the white space I was filling. I was clear about the product that I was selling. I was clear about why people cared about the product I was filling. I was clear about the product that I was selling. I was clear about why people cared about the product I was selling. And then I basically told them that I was ready because a lot of people reach out to them and they weren't ready. But I told them like all of the traction that we had had, like, you know, basically we've gotten this amount of press. We have this amount of social media followers. We just did this tour that was very successful.

People are asking for my products to be in Target. This is what you don't have. And this is why you need us. Give me a shot. And I sent that message and no one responded. And then I sent another version of that message. Let's call it a month later. No one responded.

I sent it again, maybe three month later. No one responded. I sent it again, maybe three months later and someone responded and he said, oh, this actually sounds great, but I'm not the buyer in that category anymore. But he told me the name. He said, but, you know, he told me the buyer's name. And so then I reach out to her and I give her sort of the same spiel. She doesn't respond. I reach out again, another, probably like sort of the same spiel. She doesn't respond. I reach out again another probably like two, three months later. She didn't respond. And then I reach out again. So this process is probably a year of me just like cold calling, cold emailing.

And then I got a message that said she was on maternity leave. I'm like, oh, all right. Now I got to wait again. Long story short, I counted those three months. And when I felt like she was back, I sent a more compelling email and she replied and said, this actually sounds really cool. Send me samples. And I sent a sample. She agreed to launch on.com and she wanted me to drop ship. So drop ship means that they're not placing an order with me. I'm not technically making any money

from Target on the front end, but they will allow me to borrow their website to say that I sell my products at Target. And that was good enough for me. I was like, okay, I'll take it. And I very strategically decided that I was gonna launch a new color lipstick of our best-selling formula.

And I was only gonna offer a new color lipstick of our best-selling formula, and I was only going to offer it on Target.com. And that is how we started growing. I made sure that we had an offering at Target that was exclusive to Target that you could get nowhere else. And then I promoted the heck out of it on our social media because I had been bragging about the community that we had built. And then on the back end, I told my community how important it was for them to shop me at Target. And I had the visuals that supported how beautiful this color was. And we did so well on.com that they invited me to a line review. No, I didn't even know what the hell a line review was. I was like, okay, I'll be there. But a line review was

basically where I pitched in person to be in stores. I made that pitch. They gave me another shot and they were like, we're going to launch you into 44 stores. I did the same thing in terms of like launching exclusive products there, getting my community rallied in. And then we went from 40 store, 44 stores to 450 stores within nine months because we did so well in Target. So that's 10x growth. That's crazy growth. And at that point, I was still bootstrapping. And yeah. And ever since then, like the company has just been growing in like a crazy way. That's incredible. That's incredible. And one thing I want to tell you, you are so good about when you launch at retail. Like when you launched at Walmart, you did like a whole launch party and recorded the whole thing. Can you give people some advice on really great ways to launch

when you're going into retail? And then I want to go from there. And I actually want to talk about Thread Beauty, which is the little sister to the lip bar. That is such a beautiful line, but talk to me about what's the best way to launch. And you can, you know, it doesn't have to be a long answer. It can be simple, but I think people need to know that because people always ask me, what do I do once it's on the shelf? And you're really good about how you market. Yeah. Getting on the shelf, even though that was like a long story and a long process, that's actually the easy part. Getting on the shelf is the easy part. Staying on the shelf is the hard part. Making sure that people come into that store every single week to buy your product off

that shelf so that you can get replenishment orders. That is the more challenging part. And the way I think about marketing just as a whole is like, what problem are you solving? And are you either inspiring people? Are you educating people? Are you tying on some emotional heartstrings that are going to make people pay attention? In today's world, we all know that all day, everybody is like doing this. We're scrolling our phones. We got that thumb motion. So you have to do something that's actually going to impact how someone feels to make them stop their scrolling

to pay attention to whatever you say. And so I always tap into like real life scenarios. Like I was excited about launching in Walmart. I wanted to throw a party for it. And so we, we threw a party, me and my team, like we rented a stretch limousine. We all wore Walmart blue and we got our makeup done. And we, we were like popping bottles of champagne because that's how we felt about it. So tapping into that real feeling or how you actually want your customers to feel is always going to be one of the most impactful ways to market a product because it's bringing it into their lifestyle. No matter what you're selling, I don't care if you're selling like dog food or lipstick or, you know, vagina washes. Like at the end of the day, it's like, why would people care? And you have to ask yourself that question every single time and make sure that your marketing is actually the answer. Like they're going to care

about this because this, they're going to care about this because this. They're going to care about it because this is a dream of theirs or because this is an emotional connection. Whatever that reason is, you just have to be clear on it. Yes. And so with Thread Beauty, so that was something that you did for Walmart, which was super dope, by the way. So with Thread Beauty, you just launched Thread this year in Target. Can you tell us a little bit about Thread and what made you want to do that? Because most people advise, people in business advise that you kind of have your company and you stick to that and you put all of your energy there. What made you want to start Thread? And then

what kind of advice do you have for the humans out there who would want to do something very similar? How would you advise them? So I actually didn't want to start Thread at first, which is the interesting thing. So our relationship with our retailer has been so phenomenal such that we have been able to understand sort of like what the white space is at retail. And we realized, you know, there was a gap that not even the lip bar was like serving. And that gap was for, you know, affordable makeup. That gap was for going after Gen Z. And I fought it. I fought it.

I was like, we don't have time for this. We don't have capacity for this. Like to your point, like we need to focus on like the lip bar and keep growing that as big as possible. But it woke me up out of my sleep, B. It woke me up out of my sleep in such a beautiful way that I was like, wait, I have the opportunity to change lives again. I have the opportunity to show up for people who don't necessarily see themselves at a commercial shelf.

And so Thread is also color cosmetics, but it's so different from the lip bar in that it's Gen Z focused. It is gender nonconforming. It's gender fluid. It's fun. And a lot of people were like, oh, why did you call it Thread? Thread sounds like clothing. And I decided to call it Thread because what I know to be true is like humans are just humans. We all want the same things. We want love, respect, you know, and no matter who you are, what you look like, who you

decide to sleep with, at the end of the day, we are all connected by a thread, that thread of humanity. And I wanted to create a brand that really spoke to that, that spoke to, you know, being accessible for everyone and also tapping into that, that individuality. And so it's at Target, it's $8. And it is like, it just makes me smile because it's so fun. And it's so like, I think going in the direction of like how the world is going and frankly, where we should be. So like, you'll see men who wear makeup. You will see the girl next door in her makeup. You will see people who frankly don't want to buy a $30 lipstick because that's ridiculous. So yeah, it's a fun product and it's a fun brand. And frankly, I think that

we will see more of that. We will see more companies who are really looking to serve humanity as we think about sustainability, as we think about price point, as we think about waste. I don't remember the other part of your question, but- No, you answered it. You totally answered it. Oh no, it was for humans who actually want to take a similar route. Oh yes, yes, yes. So how we do Thread is like it uses the Lip Bar's centralized resources. So overnight, the Lip Bar, when we launched Thread, the Lip Bar became a holding company. We are now a platform of brands and TLB is one and Thread is another and we will launch others. So that's really exciting. But in order to like get Thread off the ground because the reality is Thread is a startup within a startup.

So I hired a marketing team for Thread specifically because it's a completely different story, identity, et cetera. And then we use the Lip Bar Inc's centralized resources like operations and finance. We have like our product development is separate and our creative is a little separate just because they show up very differently. But I would recommend that you try

to like keep those things that are really different about like your sub brands, like keep them separate, like your marketing and your creative. I will also recommend that if you are going to launch it, you launch it in a way that you have support. So it made sense for me to launch in Target because I automatically from day one, I had that retail space. It took the lip bar seven years to get retail space or six years, something like that. Thread on day one launched into retail and I had a partner who was willing to support it. I would recommend that you do it, but do it in a way where it's actually incremental to your business and not something that's taking away from your bread and butter. Because the

lip bar is my bread and butter. That's what pays the bills. And I want to invest in Threat right now because I think that it has the opportunity to grow faster and grow further. But at the end of the day, I have to make sure that launching the second thing doesn't take away from the first thing. And that's probably going to be your most important task. So build the first thing first to a substantial place where it's feeding you and doing everything that you needed to do. And then if you want to do something else, then you can do that once the other thing is way off the ground.

It's actually supported and it's okay. We don't have a lot of time left, but I didn't want to leave without talking to you about raising money. You and I raised money together in the beginning. It was such a beautiful experience. I think that's one of the things that made us close. But like, what is your take on raising money?

And when do you think that it's time to take money in? And venture capital money comes with responsibility. What's your take on that? I'm happy that you asked this question, but also I don't really know how to answer it because I think that my perspective has shifted. Like I've been spending a lot of time in Italy, for instance, and like we have some manufacturers over there. And I was so inspired by all of these family owned businesses, like where it's like been passed down from generation to generation. And so that being said,

I don't think that there is a right answer. I don't think that you have to raise capital. I don't think that you have to keep it all. I think that you have to follow your gut. I think that you have to be aware of like what happens if you don't raise capital and what happens if you do. So to your point, there's a lot of responsibility. You are now going to have to report out. You are not the only stakeholder in your business. You will probably need to raise more capital. You will have to know that you will have certain growth targets that you have to hit if you raise money, that you are giving people a license to determine the value of your business. You could say, I think it's

worth this. And they can say, well, we're only paying that. Those are all risks that you have to deal with. Now, if you don't raise money, you have to make sure that you're okay with growing a little bit slower. You have to know that if you don't have a lot of money to invest in marketing, then it's going to be really hard to sort of build a rocket ship. But I want to be very clear in that you don't have to build a rocket ship. I think entrepreneurship has gotten so muddy. And I think that it would probably serve us best to really think about those family-owned businesses, those mom and pop shops that serve the community and have been doing so for 50, 100 years, like they didn't raise money. So you have to just like, you have to decide what

your dream is and how you want to spend your life within entrepreneurship, because it's a stressful journey and it'll be stressful probably no matter which way you go, but just decide what type of stress you are willing to take on. And I just ask that you educate yourself. Don't think that you have to raise money because everybody's raising money seemingly. And don't think that you have to build a big business because that's the thing that people brag about on the internet. No, like it's okay to do life exactly how you want. And so I just, I hope that you feel inspired to do that and don't follow anybody else's like playbook. Any other pieces of advice that you would give to the humans that are going to be watching us having this interview, you know, on themselves, on their business,

on anything, what, what would the piece of advice be? Honestly, it's to be confident. So many businesses die or entrepreneurs die inside because of lack of confidence. And so one of our investors told me, Melissa, this business is going to be as big as your ambition. And so what that really meant was however confident you are in building is exactly what's going to happen. So like know whatever is inside of you is going to come out externally. It's going to show up in your business. So just try to be confident and believe in yourself and, you know, keep going. Like that's what this is.

Just be grounded in who you are and just keep going. Yeah. Because everything is going to be all right, right? Even if it's not. Yep. Even if it's not. Yep. Even if it's not. Well, I love you and I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for spending this time with me and with us and for sharing all of your jewels.

Yes, I love you. Thank you for having me. That's all for this episode of Your Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to Your Next Move on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Your Next Move is a production of Inc. and Capital One Business.