Your Next Move - How to Build Brand Awareness Without Social Media

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

For many small businesses, social media is the only way to reach customers. But are echo-chamber algorithms stopping you from reaching the right customers? Beatrice Dixon talks with Rachel Roff, Founder of Urban Skin RX, about creating inclusive marketing campaigns, and come away with proven strategies for freeing your brand’s dependence on social media.

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audio edition, produced by Inc. and Capital One Business. Today's episode comes from the Your Next Move vault and is a conversation between host Bea Dixon, CEO and founder of The Honeypot Company, and Rachel Roth, founder of Urban Skin Rx, a cosmetics company that curates clinical skincare for all skin tones. In their conversation, they discuss brand awareness without social media,

pivoting late in the game, and what it takes to make your business legit. Here is Bea's conversation with Rachel Roth. Enjoy. Rachel is my dear friend who I adore. And so this is a treat to me because I'm not, you know, it's always a treat to talk. But it's a special treat because I'm really grateful that you would make the time for this. Well, that means so much to me. I was actually headed to Honolulu, I think, yesterday. But when she called,

I had to be here. So anything for you? Well, thank you for stopping your holiday for a day for me. So, you know, today's topic is going to be about building brand awareness without social media. Like before there was a social media, There's going to be a lot of emphasis on this because I think what all of us are finding as founders is that on social media, it's getting a little harder and harder for us to do business. And Rachel is a genius at this because she started her company before there was a social media wait I'm not that old there was there was social media it just was not what it is it's not that it was like it was like my space but that but that but there wasn't there wasn't Instagram there wasn't Facebook and when I

think of social media that's what I think of, right? And so, you know, especially for companies. So I guess the best way I think we should get started is to tell people about exactly what it is that you did before you were starting Urban Skin Rx. So I actually started my company at the age of 24, I was a licensed medical esthetician in Charlotte, North Carolina. And maybe after a year of being in the industry, I noticed that there was a large disparity in an industry that I really cared about, which was clinical skincare, skin and laser treatments that were safe and effective for all skin tones, because the industry traditionally had really only been geared towards and catering to white women, to be honest with you, especially in the South. So I decided I wanted to open a medical spa. So I opened Urban Skin Solutions Skin and Laser Center in 2006. And that was what I was doing, ready to change the

world. You definitely were ready to change, ready to do it. So when you got started, was it because, so were you just passionate about it because you were constantly running into humans? Yes. So when I first decided I wanted to be an esthetician at a very early age, I struggled with my appearance, a lot of skin issues, weight issues. And initially I grew up in California. And so it was, I came from a pretty liberal background. Skin was just skin. You know, I never thought I would need to specialize in treating or making it be known I knew how to treat deeper skin tones. And so when I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, which was even less diverse than it is today, it was very segregated, you know, 15, 20 years ago. It did seem like time and time again, you know, when I was going to school for aesthetics, it was just always known that, you know, there was very limited education towards how you could practice more corrective treatments on deeper skin tones because people were so scared of burning them.

But there was always this notion like there's not a lot of business out there, like that's not going to be who your consumer is. So kind of don't worry about it. And when I got my first job being an esthetician, it was for a chiropractor who I think just opened a med spa because he thought it was going to be easy money. He had no idea what he was doing. He opened his med spa in an office park. So he had no signage on a main road.

He had zero marketing budget. And he bought a laser that I don't even think he realized was safe for deeper skin tones. And through a training, I realized, wow, this man invested in one of the few lasers that actually can safely treat darker skin tones. And so I started doing some services on myself and my friends and I had a very diverse group of friends and I just started thinking like, gosh, there's a whole population around me that really is being ignored. And so I convinced the guy,

well, actually first I started printing flyers, which we will get to in terms of some tactics. I think that we all have to get back to outside of falling into thinking social media is our biggest tool to grow our businesses. But I printed all these flyers of before and after pictures and hit up every salon and barbershop in Charlotte. And especially walking into barbershops as a woman is very intimidating.

But that's what I did. And the guy realized that I was getting him some business. And so he's like, what else could we do? I'll give you $1,500. I was like, I think we should go on the radio on like a local, you know, R&B station or something that has a more diverse audience and offer laser hair removal that's safe for all skin tones. And it started to work. And I knew the guy did not care. He was just like about the money, which is fine. You know, I care about money too. And I think just very quickly I learned like that it was my calling, that it was something where I could live out my passion of helping people feel and look better about their appearance.

But I could also make a difference in the world in terms of a real disparity that was not fair that I could help make a difference with. Which is beautiful. So, okay, so you were making him a lot of money, essentially. Yeah, I was making him some good money, yeah. And so did you literally just wake up one morning and say, I need to do this on my own? I was like, you know, I was on probably a five-year plan, like, oh, by 30, I'm going to open my own medical spa, and then one day I'm going to franchise them. But very quickly, I was like, why wait? And I remember I ordered my Business Plan Pro. Does that even exist anymore? It's like

a software system, which has all these templates of different business plans. And I found like a spa type of business plan. And I made edits to it. And then I hired a bookkeeper. I couldn't even hire an accountant who was like going to school for accounting. And we plugged in numbers of like worst case scenario, best case scenario. And I figured out really how much money it was going to take if I did the worst case scenario to really make it. And within six months, I opened up a medical spa. Wow. So you pitched this to your—exactly. Round of applause, everybody. So, but you pitched it to your parents.

Yes. So, you know, this is something I always want to be really honest about. So I went to a bank with this, like, 50-page business plan. Felt like I had everything they needed to get this, you know, $200,000 loan. And they're like, can we see your credit, you know, to guarantee the loan? And I showed them the credit, which was non-existent. It wasn't that our good. And so they were like, you know, we're really sorry, ma'am. You know, we need somebody to guarantee this. And I was lucky enough to have a family that did believe in me and was willing to sign for the loan. And I got them all their money back right away.

That's incredible. Yep. So you get the money, you open the spa, you find the place. Now, her guerrilla marketing skills, you guys, is ridiculous. So you talked about a couple of things. You talked about the radio, you talked about printing off flyers, but it had to be more to it than that. Oh, yeah. I would say, you know, from the beginning, I was always really intrigued with making every person that worked for me salespeople. It did not matter what position you were in. If you were a receptionist, I was finding a way to incentivize you with sales. And so I was from a very early

beginning to my career, I was really priding myself in some very unique commission structures, you know, so I knew that every time I turned my back, because there's a problem as an entrepreneur that we feel like you, how can you find people to treat your business like their own? And, you know, the person answering the phone, that is the first impression that people get. And the last thing you want to do is have some dumb receptionist that does not care about your business. And that was something that was really important to me was finding a way to make everybody a salesperson. I mean, I would have contests over,

I would invest in business cards with people's names on them and they would write their name on the back. And any person, any customer who turned that, of course, the business card would have an incentive for the customer. So, hey, if you see somebody, you hand this out as $25 off.

And when people would bring them in, I would give them 5% of their first service. And all those type of techniques, I think, really did end up paying off. This is the original influencer. Yes, the original affiliate program. Yes, I love it. So, okay, so this is incredible to me. So what were some of the challenges that you found yourself? Because you just, you went for it.

You talked to your parents. You went to the bank. You got the loan. You know, you had a little bit of experience working for the chiropractor. What were some of the issues or brick walls that you found yourself running into that you didn't expect with a brick and mortar? I think operations for me has always been a struggle, still is even outside. So if you learn more about me now, I'm no longer a brick and mortar business. And I shifted to a retail-based clinical skincare line sold in like massive retail spaces. But with a brick and mortar, you are only making money when you're open. And how do you really optimize bringing in that revenue

when you are stuck to those very specific hours, as well as geographical location? Luckily, because I had a specialty business that was so rare, I did have people drive in from faraway places. But that definitely was a struggle of like feeling like I could never reach people the way I wanted to off of a standalone brick and mortar. Yeah. Yeah. But were there any challenges around, like when you took the loan out how long did that last you I was really good at making my money last I mean I'm bootstrapped for years and years and years so until recently really yeah I did not take um an investment until two years ago and so it took roughly, what is that? 15, 16 years. So I never had another loan or anything. That's incredible. So I actually want to go to our polling question. Do you all think that it's possible to launch a brand in today's world without social media?

And that's a yes or no question, which is going to be for our audience online as well as I see everybody here shaking their head yes or no. And then I have, so I have an audience question from Nina Taylor. She says, if you do only one thing with a small marketing budget, what should it be? Find out where your customers are and be there. You know, immediately invest in a tool to know who your consumer is and try to get in front of them as much as possible. Be where the customer is.

And what were some of the ways that you did that? It was all exposed. I mean, I spent my life on the road for years. And what were some of the ways that you did that? It was all expos. I mean, I spent my life on the road for years. Anybody who would allow me to set up a booth, whether it was a state farm, you know, event or, but I mean, that's how you and I met was setting up booths at trade shows everywhere. And I'm really excited that the pandemic as of now is looking like that's finally possible again, because I think that is so important for brand awareness. People crave authenticity, and there's nothing like face-to-face time with a customer to show them the experience of your business. And I know we are so into remote work at this time. And myself and the editor of Inc. were just talking about this is, you know, I always, I'm old school. I love, I'm on the hybrid

schedule right now. And I know you're fully remote, but there's something about the magic in the room. Like, why are we here having so much fun together? You know, because it's face to face. And so I think, again, I really encourage people to find the ways to do that, even on a cheap budget. You do not, like, don't go in this convention center and get intimidated by these fancy booths and think that that is the only way to make it. Because that's not the only way to make it. You can, you can do it the scrappy way you can yeah I mean we would have a table and maybe a tablecloth and we would take because our products are plant derived so we would go to the grocery store and buy fruits and vegetables that

were in the product and we would just set that up and then we went to like Kinko's or something and got a big um what's this what's this thing called a big banner step and repeat we would yes a step and repeat and literally we would just set our products up and we would sell it I remember going to Essence Fest and I thought we were going to be inside it was was July. This is New Orleans in July, you guys. It was awful. It was like the worst thing in the world. But guess what? What you going to do? There's thousands of people walking by because that's what trade shows are for. Because you're going to be able to get in front of thousands of people in a matter of just a few days. So I can't agree with you. One thing I want to add on to that, and I know it's actually, that's not true. I was going to thousands of people in a matter of just a few days. So I can't agree with you more.

One thing I want to add on to that, and I know it's actually, that's not true. I was going to say it's different when you have a service-based business because I've done it both ways. But there's a lot of debate out there about, you know, giving away your product or service for free. And does that cheapen your brand? And I will never be able to quantify the amount of services and products I gave away for free. And it was because I believed in the retention of my good and service.

And I knew that if I got you to try it one time, that the odds were that you would come back. And so I would massively discount your first free service or every celebrity or influencer that I treated for free. And I was not about to put a contract in front of them being like, if I give you this free microderm, are you going to do? I would take my chances. And a couple of people did burn me. They didn't post, they didn't do, but like people loved what I offered and I highly recommend looking into sampling programs. Yeah. And so speaking of that, we have another audience question from Shakia Arston. She says, as an independent business owner building your brand from the ground up, how did you constantly generate consistent startup revenue? Was that one of the ways that you did it?

Yeah, I would definitely. I mean, I was a business and still to this day, and I'm not a hundred percent at peace with it, where I did become a discount business. Like I put out monthly specials as a tool at my medical spa. And now years later, we do a lot of online sales and it became a huge part of just a guaranteed stream of revenue. But I think that there is a gift and curse around that. But you know, you just got to be careful to not fall too deep into that trap. I totally agree. But in the beginning, sometimes that's all you got. It's just be like, yo, take it

and let me know what you think. You know, so I completely agree with you. So, okay, so let's fast forward. It's 2010 and you're founding Urban Skin Rx. So what made you say, you know what, I want to, I want to not only be in the, in the med spa business. Now I want to make products. It seems like it's just a natural flow, but like, what was your, cause that's a big step. Cause you're really running two companies. Yeah. It was never actually with a goal of becoming this like global brand. It was

really strictly because I was not finding the products and formulas that I needed for my customers. It seemed like I specialize in hyperpigmentation, which is dark spots, which is very common with deeper skin tones. Although all skin tones suffer from uneven skin tone, it's more prominent in skin of color. And it seemed like every skincare line had one or two products, but not the full assortment. Plus, if I found a product I liked, it was always like, but if it had this ingredient, it'd be that much better. So I did that. And then I also thought of, well, why carry everybody else's products?

Because they can just go to their local med spa and pick those up. And if they feel like these are unique to me, they're going to be forced to come back into my business to repurchase them. And then maybe they'll make an appointment for Botox or for a facial. It's also a form of branding. When it sits on their bathroom counter, it's reminding them of my business. And then very organically, it just, it grew. I started treating a lot of celebrity clients and they would get my products and they would post them on social media. And I'm like, I guess we need a social media.

So I got a social media. So I got a social media and then people started calling and being like, oh, I saw this person with your product. I want to buy it, but I live in Texas. And so then we created a website and for years, you know, we were one entity. We were not two separate companies. I had my receptionist shipping our products. It was one phone line. And I actually really did not make the skincare line a priority until it was like, you know, and this sounds crazy. It's such a blessing, but it was like the revenue finally like slapped me in the face and was like, this is possibly going to be way bigger than my medical spas. I can't keep telling the receptionist, oh, don't worry about shipping the products, worry about other stuff. You know, so it just

very kind of organically happened. And you finally went and got a fulfillment center. I will never forget the day I got a fulfillment center. So we had this little makeup area in my lobby that we would do makeup. And we quickly learned we weren't making a lot of money off of makeup. So we would package products. And we got this screen to pull down from Ikea. But you would hear the tape going. And I'm like, this is not a spa environment. But I'm like, I'm not getting a fulfillment center until we hit 1,000 orders a month.

That was my goal. Which is a good mantra. I think that's a good mantra. Like same thing with social media. I ran our social media until we hit a hundred thousand followers. I'm like, I'm not hiring somebody until we hit a hundred thousand followers. And in full, full honesty, there's many times in my business where I've ran social media again, but yeah, it was a thousand orders. We're going to take a quick break and be back with more from Bea and Rachel.

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Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureX business. So initially, what was your product innovation strategy? Because at first it was based on what you were recommending, but then now you have so many amazing, beautiful products. Yeah, my product innovation strategy is very screwed up. Our brand has a very screwed up architecture. At least you're honest. No, and it comes from not having the goal of wanting to go into retail. And I look at these, my competition today who, gosh, I mean, some of my friends who were like more of the OGs is like, you look at these brands that have like the tech funding and like people know that beauty especially over the last couple years is such a giant billion dollar

industry that people are naming products off of literally like SEO like words and like you know and I have products with like such similar names and products with such similar formulas. And now that they're in retail, it's like a lot of undoing the lack of like strategy that I thought about because I was just like, what's a good name? I'll call this Super C Brightening Serum and like didn't run trademark searches. But I can't really second guess that because I feel like my passion for just wanting efficacious products that did what I promised my clients they would do is what got me to where I am today. We have over a 60% retention rate of consumers that come back and purchase from us, which for the skincare industry is extremely high. So, I mean, we could have the best brand architecture where it's like step one, step two, step three, you know, but maybe we would not be where we are today at the same time. You just said something that's interesting that I think other business owners that may run into the same problem.

The products that may have already had a trademark on them or that you may have had to go back and change the name. What was that process like? It's hell. It's not fun at all, especially once you have a private equity firm involved. And it's all about intellectual property at this point to them. So it's difficult being in the big leagues. It's like you have so much further to fall and so much to lose once you get

to a certain point, which is really scary. And I suffer from anxiety daily as a founder. But, you know, you work through it. And I think that if anybody who's successful as an entrepreneur, it's because they have grit and it's because they refuse to fail. And there's no, you know, problem too big that I feel like I can't solve. And I will stay up all hours of all nights to make sure that I get it done. But when you do it, are you working with? I'm working with a trademark attorney and I'm working with my brand marketing team and product innovation to figure out what is a better name or like if we have a trademark infringement on a another brand you

know how can we reformulate the product to be as close to what it was and be transparent with the customer because in today's day and age, there is no hiding things from customers. They will, they will annihilate you. Yeah. So, you know, we are in a day of age. And annihilation is a thing. Totally. And you have to be, I think it is so important as a brand. If you screw up, do not try to hide it. They take it face on. Be responsible. Yeah. So with the way that social media is changing these days, us not being able to go after our customers the way that we did just even a couple years ago, or even a year ago, are you finding yourself going back into your guerrilla marketing bag? Yeah, no, for sure. The last two years, I think anybody in marketing can say that it's been

the two hardest years of my life, especially if you've been doing this as long as I have. It's like everything that you've ever known that worked is either crazy expensive with way less return. And so it is a lot of going back to the basics. I mean, it's all about like maximizing your email campaign strategy. It is about, you know, really understanding the customer journey and where do they drop off and how do you prevent that and how. Also, I still think that word of mouth and recommendation tools, like I just saw some study where word of mouth has five times the return that any effective digital ad has. So, you know, how do you really

maximize your opportunities with that? I mean, I think that there really are so many opportunities outside of social media. I completely agree with you. But so I'll ask you the question that I asked in the polling, right? Do you feel like you can launch a business these days without it? When you say without it, like you don't go on it, period. Like you either don't make it a thing. I think that you, I think it's like a website. And depending on the business you have, you have to have a great website, you know, especially if it's one that you are selling on. But I think that customers want to know that you're legit, you know, and I don't think that you have to have a huge following to be considered legit. But I do think it is a way to just it's like a reference check.

Like, OK, they're on social media. It clicks through to their website. The content is matches what they're trying to sell. But no, I do not think you have to put a lot of effort into social media to make it as a business. Yeah. So what would you say was your defining moment with Urban Skin Rx, with your med spa first? And then what would you say was your defining moment with your brand? And were there any moments where those two kind of interchanged between each other when you say defining moment what do you mean by that like was was there a moment when when when like super scale happened oh yeah you know and you know and and what was that like and how and how did you

recover from that? Yeah, no. So with my med spot, it was when I added medical weight loss. I found out on our insurance policy that now that we had a nurse practitioner and a PA, we could start prescribing weight loss medications. And I had somebody who'd suffered with weight issues my whole life. And so I did feel very passionate about it. And I always have to do things that I'm passionate about in the business, just the volume of customers that we were seeing, because they were like in 30 minute appointments, was just on

a whole nother level. And then that group of customers started signing up for other services. So that really was a pivotal moment in my medical spa journey. And then with the skincare brand, there was multiple moments where the business grew in really important ways. One was when a couple of different celebrities aligned themselves with my brand. I remember that. Yeah. Tiana Taylor really, it was first Fantasia. I'm not sure if you guys know Fantasia from American Idol. She was the first celebrity that started being a client that definitely helped legitimize us. And then the reason why Tiana Taylor was so important was when Tiana Taylor, unpaid, told the world this cleansing bar is the shit. Her exact words.

See, we sold like $200,000 worth of product in like a day and a half. And I was like, wow, this is serious. Yeah. So that was then. Then, of course, for me getting into target and that was a very surreal moment just because it's like target you know and i will never forget taking my little girl and i'd had it in my mind i was like if i ever get into a major retailer i'm gonna lay down on the aisle floor and And I think it was just because maybe

in my mind, it was like, I can finally rest, which was such bullshit. You never rest as a CEO or founder. So that was a big moment, but it was a big moment because everybody needs that person to validate you. And like, everybody's waiting for that one person to say that they really are a real thing. And then, of course, all the other retailers start coming, you know, Ulta, Walmart, HSN, QVC. It was like they just needed somebody to say, OK, they're a real business. And then I'll stop after this one other thing. But we ended up going viral on TikTok right before the pandemic. And we weren't even on TikTok.

And it was like one day, it was just like my e-com manager was like, does somebody post for us? Or do we have like a discount code out there? Like our sales are like triple what they should be right now. And this girl emailed us and she's like, hey, I just want to let you know, I did this post on TikTok and I did a hashtag clear skin three week challenge. And I put up this before and after picture of your product. And I said, I bought it at Sephora. Mind you, we're not at Sephora. And she was like, and it's like, it's over a million views. Well, over the course of like four to eight weeks. Sephora should have put you in, girl. Please call and tell them that.

But the company's forever changed from a size perspective. We pretty much doubled overnight. And I will tell you something really funny about that. So five months before that, I sold a very large stake of my brand to a private equity firm. And if I had just waited six months, it would have been a entirely different valuation. I'm talking night and day. Triple. know you can never you can never second guess those things that happen and going viral in

TikTok has its pluses and minuses one it was a customer base that we were not used to it was very very young kids they were not multicultural which was who our main consumer was and you spend a lot of time learning about your customers so you know how to market to them. And we did not have a clue how to deal with these young high schoolers. And they all were buying the same exact product. Well, mind you, I've prided myself in making 40 different products

for all different skin types. And they were all buying the exact same product regardless of their skin type. So we ended up with a lot of bad reviews. I would say 30 to 40% of reviews on TikTok ended up being like, this brand is trash. It dried my skin out. It doesn't work. You know what I mean? And of course, it was so painful to hear that, but it still definitely really grew my brand and changed some things. I think it's beautiful that you're willing to say that you got bad reviews. Because it is, right?

Like, it's honest. Because choosing the right skincare for your type of skin is extremely important. So how does a brand, because I'm sure there's many humans in this audience that have brands, how does a brand come out? What do you do to, how do you manage that? So it's really funny. I actually just did a campaign leaning into some bad reviews. So our number one selling product is our Even Tone Cleansing Bar. And it's either life-changing or it dried my skin out. There's no in between. And so I just launched our Even Tone Gentle Gel Cleanser, which is very similar formula, but in a gentler form in a gel.

So on social media, because we very much put a lot of time into social media, despite what I'm telling you, that we ended up posting like, you know, we've been hearing these bad reviews for years, so we got something for you, you know, and people love that transparency. And it's actually, we sold out of the product within two weeks. Wow. That's amazing. So actually, I have another audience question from Audrey Frazier. Have you ever had to completely retreat from a decision you made, committed to, and devoted

resources to? The second part of that was, was it difficult to admit the mistake, which I think it wasn't, and make steps toward corrections, and how did you overcome it? Well, I would just recommend everybody to get on my glass door, because if there's one common complaint about me as a founder is that I change my mind too much. And it is something that I have struggled with is pivoting from a plan. You know, I always feel like the CEO has a bird's eye that not everybody has to exactly what's going on. As if entrepreneur and founder, you have this instinct, you know what I mean? That is very hard to articulate and quantify to a lot of people.

And the bigger your brain gets and the savvier people you get on board, the more they want the data and analytics and the KPIs and like to quantify every decision you make. And that's just not me. I get something in my mind where I'm like, I know that this is wrong, or I know that the campaign needs to be renamed this. So something I've really struggled with. And I know that this is wrong, or I know that the campaign needs to be renamed this. So something I've really struggled with, and I think that although I'm not entirely capable of changing, one thing I'm trying to get better at is explaining myself to my team, rather than just being like, this is what I know we need to do, and let's just do it. Really explaining to them all the different things that is leading me to have these feelings and

this intuition to try to do the best I can to get them on board. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but I feel like you're doing it because you're so focused to awareness. You're so focused on how your products are going to communicate to the humans that you're serving. But when you're making those decisions to pivot, is it once everything is already kind of taken care of sometimes? I had this sunblock that, I mean, I've prided myself, for 10 years, I've tried to create a 100% mineral sunblock to go on sheer, sheer on the deepest of deep skin tones. And when I'm talking about deep, I'm not just talking about brown. I'm

talking about deep skin tones that are sometimes rare in this country to be seen. And the production, like I proved the samples. This was a process that went on for years. And the final product that showed up was not as sheer as I had approved it to be. And we had put together a whole entire campaign that said no white residue. It was like zero white residue. And there was residue. Like it was like zero white residue. And there was residue. I felt like, I felt like it was much better than the majority of products, but I did not feel like I could look at every single person on this world, in this world and, you know, look them in the eye and say, I guarantee you, you will have no white residue left on your face. And so I pissed off my team, but I mean, I printed stickers to go over the part on the unit carton that said no white residue. I redid digital ads. I mean, this was all in the final hour. It went to like sheer on diverse

complexions rather than no white residue. And they were pissed off. But that speaks to how committed you are to your customer. It's hard for people to understand what has to happen in the back end as a founder, because if anything happens, they're looking at you. They're coming for you. And so I have a personal question to ask you. With you being a Caucasian founder, what is it like when the human that you're passionate about it and you found you saw a white space that was not being served and you wanted to serve it but humans aren't always easy on founders and so what's that like in your work world and then in

your personally well it's definitely changed as my company has gotten bigger. I mean, from day one when people would walk into my medical spa, I would be questioned. Like, I mean, down to like, what do you know about black skin or like you're white? You know, people, some people would say it really nicely. Like, hey, you know, just like, you know, with hair texture, you know, you, I might go to somebody and be like, hey, do you commonly deal with my hair type? You know, and I think that there's a way to say anything. And I was asked all day, and I would always try to, you know, let them know, like, look, it's all about education and experience. Like, there's

plenty of male gynecologists out there. You know, do you want to go to somebody who has your same skin tone? Or do you want to go to somebody who is educated and experienced in dealing with it? And honestly, with that answer, 99% of it went away. Plus, they were meeting me in person. And you can feel the vibe. You can feel who the person is. But it has really changed. You know, we are a big brand. It's with your products. They're not meeting you in person. No, not at all. And people have unfortunately, you know, created some really hurtful narratives about myself and the company that on some days make me you know not not want to get up and do what I do yeah and that is why I want

to get off social media that's why that's why I want to it's all to boycott social media because it's it's a tough place to be yeah but you can't can't though. No, no. And you know, I just, at the end of the day, we are by far supported more than we are. I know that if you do the digging in our company and me, you are going to see that we are the real deal. And I know that people face this adversity in companies, you know, outside of race. Like founders and people in the public are always going to be challenged.

And that just goes along with being successful. I don't know. Did I answer your question? You absolutely did. But I just, I wanted to ask you that because it's a real thing, you know, and people can be unkind. To me, skin color does not matter. We're the human race. We're not races of humans, right? We've just been conditioned to be this way and think about race first. But I know you, obviously. I know how much you love this work.

And, you know, and so I wanted to ask because I know somebody here was probably thinking it too, right? And that's okay to think. I think that it's normal, but I just wanted to know because we don't often get to talk about how it makes us feel. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I feel like if everybody in the world chose to ignore issues that did not affect them personally, like, where would we be as a race and as humankind, you know? But whenever you are trying to do great things, you're going to be challenged. And it just, it is what it is. But there is a human factor, and it's hurtful at times, for sure. It is. Well, unfortunately, sister, we have to wrap up. Love this so much. I could have talked to you for hours

and I am incredibly grateful for your time and for your energy. That's all for this episode of Your Next Move. Our producer is Matt Toder. Editing and sound design by Nick Torres. Executive producer is Josh Christensen. If you haven't already, subscribe to Your Next Move on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your Next Move is a production of Inc. and Capital One Business.