Your Transformation Station - 133. Neurodiversity at Work: Unlocking Untapped Talent

Episode Date: February 25, 2024

Neurodiversity reflects natural differences in how people think, learn, and process information. In this episode, Gregory Favazza speaks with Katherine McCord about how conditions such as ADHD, autism, dyslexia, bipolar disorder, and OCD are often misunderstood and how traditional workplace systems unintentionally exclude capable talent. The conversation focuses on self-awareness, practical self-advocacy, and organizational design, reframing neurodiversity as a performance and systems issue rather than a deficit. Topics • neurodiversity in the workplace • self-awareness and identity • regulation and coping mechanisms • self-advocacy at work • inclusive systems and performance Outline (00:01) Neurodiversity and work environments (07:18) Personal experience and awareness (15:38) Adaptation and self-management (23:35) Regulation and ego mechanisms (35:24) Advocacy and communication (43:25) Workplace inclusion in practice (53:44) Interview dynamics Links Katherine McCordhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-mccord-093bb343/https://www.titanmanagementusa.comhttps://www.kmccordspeaking.com PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com⁠⁠ Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/apple⁠⁠ Spotify: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/spotify⁠⁠ RSS: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/rss⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/youtube⁠⁠ SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/facebook⁠⁠ - Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/instagram⁠⁠ - TikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/tiktok⁠⁠ - Twitter: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/x⁠⁠ - Pinterest: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/pinterest⁠⁠ - Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.ytsthepodcast.com/linkedin⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So, like, we get addicted to the way our mind is responding. Now, now it's the conscious theme or, yeah, it's the conscious scheme of what's going on, but then it's those running thoughts, that's the conscious scheme. And then when there's that gap, that's when our logic can kind of squeeze through their or self-awareness. So how are you teaching leaders that ability to have that ability if they don't have it in the first place. You're listening to a podcast that encourages you to embrace your vulnerabilities and authentic self.

This is your transformation station, and this is your host, Greg Favaza. How are you? Hi, Catherine. How are you? I'm doing very well. Oh, okay. I didn't know we were to be screen. Yes.

Here we go. Yes. Hide that. Here we go. There. I was messaging you all like, it's doing first. First, it wouldn't let me, like, onto the platform at all. Then I was sitting in the waiting room for, like, five minutes.

Oh, I do apologize. I was a little just getting back in, helping my dog. She's got a hurt leg, so I was like, come on, let's go. Sounds like I ended up having to carry her. I have one. My foster dog, her new thing is, let me lay in the grass and not move when you want me to come inside. That's the new game.

I'm like, no, no, ma'am. We're still got to go. Yes, ma'am. That's so good. I think it's actually a great, like, talking point to start off of, like, with neurodivergent people and looking at inclusion in the workplace. Like, I mean, do we get a pass if we're hardworking employees, but we're late occasionally? No way.

Where did my plug go for my freaking speaking of, like, weird things? Here we go. Trying to plug in my mic. Hold on. it came unplugged because I knocked it with my leg. There we go. All right. My sound should be a little bit better, too.

Ooh. Can you try that? Can you say a little bit more? Test, test, test. Can you hear me? I kind of like the other way better how it, how it was coming off. Really? Yeah.

I mean, oh, uh, I hate doing this without my headset and the stuff on. Um, is the game? Because here's the thing, if there's a noise, because I work at home. So if there's a noise outside, you're going to get it on the show. So that's why I like to do the headset better. But if you really like the other way better, you're the first person who's ever said they liked it better the other way. But that's okay. I can be flexible.

Just know if there's a noise outside, like a bird or a lawnmower or something, it's just going to be at the show. No. Are you utilizing a microphone if you can turn your game? If you can turn the game down just a little bit? I have no idea what that means. Yes. No idea. Zero clue what that is.

And there's nothing that says that. Like literally nothing. There's an echo thingy that's down. There's a volume thingy that's down. Is that it? Maybe. That might just control. Yeah.

Yeah, that just controls that. That's not helpful. Okay. Yeah, I have no idea what gain is. There's no other button. There is on-off. There is echo. and there is volume. Do you want to try turning the volume down just to hear?

I did. You said that wasn't good. Okay. Hold on. Okay. What about that? Is that better? Yes.

Actually, that's much better. Thank you. Okay. You're welcome. Here we go. All right. I was like, I don't know. One out of me.

I don't know what that is. Help me, help you. But we figured it out. we did. Yes, ma'am. That was a team effort. I love it. It was. It totally was. Oh, by the way, I have to show you this because you're going to love the neurodict. Oh, God, dig it. Watch, I'm not going to be able to reach you. So I just started a contract for a neurodiversity hiring platform. I'm helping to consult for the design. Okay. And this was my present for starting with them. They turned me into a funco pop. And the box that she came in said neuro spicy cat. That's awesome. I like that. I'm a little action figure of me.

I think that's kind of cool. It is. I got to tell you that. And between that and the Lego me that I have that was created at a convention for me, best convention present ever. Whoa. Oh my God. That is really cool.

Right. A Lego master was there and he was doing those. I had to stand in line. It was this whole thing. And I was like, yes, worth it. Best thing ever. Oh, man. I won't.

I did it. I know, right. Oh, my God. I even had to go back to the convention just to pick it up. And I was like, I don't care. I'm doing it. Yes. I would be exactly in the same boat.

Like, way too excited about it. So what's the difference between neurodivergent and neuro, it's the other neuro word? I think I might have said it maybe five. minutes ago. Yes. Is this actually an issue that now neurodivergent people have? I mean, forget things. Yes. Yes, it is actually. So there's all different kinds of terms around neurodiversity, right? So there's neurodiverse, neurodivergent, neuroscise is a new fun one. That's one of my new kind of favoritey ones that people have come up with just to kind of put a fun spend. But so linguistically speaking in the United States, this is not true in other countries.

But in the United States, linguistically speaking, neurodivergence and neurodiverse are interchangeable. They're linguistically interchangeable because there is a misconception for a while that diverse held a different meaning than divergent. But there's more than one dictionary definition or diverse. So they are linguistically interchangeable, but it is more culturally natural to say neurodiverse because nobody says that they're racially divergent or religiously divergent or culturally divergent. Nobody says that. They say diverse. So from that standpoint, neurodiverse slips a little bit better off the tongue, but both are actually correct. So I'm actually glad you asked about that because I see a lot of people correcting each other. I'm like,

actually, you're both right and wrong. You know, like you shouldn't be correcting the other person because they're right to. That's fascinating. I even think of it like that. That's actually that's kind of funny. Yeah, it's hilarious. Like you're both right and wrong at the same time. But before neurodivergent became a, started to come into trending words, what was, how would you identify this prior to knowing your divergent? You know, so I always knew that I was different. And I got my first diagnosis, well, my first diagnosis was recognized. Let me put it that way. When I was very, very at about three or four years old, my parents realized like, oh, okay, this is what's going on. Luckily, I had parents that recognized the symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder, as well as a few

other, a few other fun little quirks. And then, you know, other things progressed, you know, as I went along. and I have multiple neurodiversities that fall both on the medical spectrum and on the mental health spectrum as well. And people just, it was really weird because people would say that people that had these characteristics were slow, which I always thought was hilarious as a kid because I'd be like, that's the smartest kid in the class. Like as little Catherine, I was just like laughing at other people like, you're just, dumb. You're the dumb one. Like this kid over here is smart. What's wrong with you? And that was

unfortunately, people use the term mentally ill a lot. And that was never used it me, which is kind of interesting, but I, at least not that I recall. But there was a lot of that. And that term was used to put people away and to lock them away to take away their rights. And so there's a lot of sensitivity around the term mentally ill. They're mentally deficient. There were all kinds of things. I'm just going, I don't know where. It was like anything that was different.

It's no different than racism, right? You look back through history and people thought all kinds of almost hilarious things. It would have been funny if it hadn't been so detrimental about people of different races. You know, they're less smart. They're, you know, they're incapable of controlling their emotions. Like, that's, none of that's accurate. Well, see, the weird thing is, like, when I was in middle school, actually elementary, middle school and high school, they would separate different kinds of kids and kind of group them together.

And I was one of those individuals that got put into a different classroom to get extra time for my homework. And there was a lot of. factors happening. I mean, there's a lot of trauma that I was dealing with at home. And then the only safe place was at school and then not being up to date with homework and understanding the studies. So they separated me to get caught up. And I have ADHD or I don't even know if we're using that anymore. We still are. No, it's a very popular one. Yes. And not OCD. My father actually, he's very OCD with specific things. He used to pull the plugs out because it would, I mean, you like to save money with electricity.

So he figured pulling the plug out of the wall would save a few pennies there. There are different manifestations. But one of the things that I always remind people is that it's about compulsion. Right. That's what OCD is about compulsion. And it's funny to me how much these diagnoses are completely miscellaneous. understood, just 100% misunderstood. Like, I have people

to think that ADHD people can never sit still. And I'm like, no, that's not right. They absolutely can. You know, it's just, you know, different things manifest at different times, you know. And one of the most fascinating aspects

to me about neurodiversity is the balance of it, right? So you have these things that are challenges, although I maintain that like 90% of them are only challenging because the world wasn't designed for us, right? That if we used universal design, those things wouldn't so much be challenges anymore. But there are these challenges that get frustrating.

You know, like I can get in these ruts and my brain just keeps repeating itself. And I'm stuck doing this one thing until I can break that pattern. But then there's these awesome things that come out of it. And that's the part that for millennia, we missed, right? And now we've started to realize, oh, this is a thing. Neurodiversity is full of genius. And, you know, Johns Hopkins has done studies on this. And Harvard has done studies on this.

And it's, you know, it's so many that goes on and on and on. And there are wonderful, incredible benefits to neurodiversity. And I've seen it in my work for years. I always joke with people that science is now catching up to my parents. that we already knew this. We were in on this little secret and everybody else is just now kind of catching up to the rest of us.

But it's nice to see because it's so true. But isn't it interesting how we balance ourselves? You know, it's like we have this struggle, this thing that happens over here and that's frustrating. But then this really cool thing happens over here. And it's because of the same thing. It's caused by it. Both are caused by the ADHD

or both are caused by the OCD or both are caused by the OCD. or both are caused by bipolar or autism or, you know, dyslexia, whatever it is that's going on. So you're saying it's a double-edged sword, like where it can be a positive thing, but it can also be the struggle. Or maybe the fact is that you overcome the struggle to make it into your strength. I think it's both. I think it's both. I think that we are inherently, and this is true throughout the disability community, by the way, which technically, neurodiversity is part of the disability community.

And there are three types of disabilities, by the way. There's legal, there's medical, and then there's societal. Societal is one that's opposed, right? But then there's legal and then there's medical as well. We can have all three. We can have one of the three. We can have none of the three. It's just kind of, you know, whatever.

Although I think all of us fall into the legal. But it is fascinating because it is both. It is completely both. and to use my husband as an example, so he's on the spectrum, the autism spectrum. And because of that, the way that his fine works allows him to create entire processes for organizations and to build those out within a day or two,

which would take other people like a month to do this thing. I believe it. And he can do it just so freaking quick. He's also a phenomenal teacher because he actually, there's this misconception that people with autism can't read us. other people. That's not correct. It's just that their responses are not the same as everybody else's. Socially acceptable or rubs people the wrong way. It's what we used to call we were kids like socially awkward. Like awkward. That kind of thing. But he's a phenomenal mentor,

a teacher. But on the other hand, like humor, while he's hilarious. I mean, he's like comedian level hilarious. That was learned. That was a learned pattern. from that was not natural. And he doesn't respond to emotional stimuli the same way as other people. So that can be frustrating, but just, you know, it doesn't have to be when you learn how to communicate inclusively. But the same thing causes both issues. So it can cause frustration over here and then strength over here.

For me, with my mania, with my bipolar, I work in my freight trade, right? I'm like, I'm hyper-creative and all this, but don't give me a credit card. That's not going to help. funny. Yes. Well, maybe the stores. It'll help the stores. Now, I'm really interesting.

You said, because I had this direction, I want to go that way, but with a learned behavior, so with my encounter with all different types of people, from the military to childhood, you can recognize people that don't have, it's, some of them are just surface, and then there's more that actually have that understanding. of the complexity. Now, I understand that self-expiration plays a part in that. But what if there's like more to actually, I'm losing it. Shoot. Because my professor, he was, he was also autistic and him and I would hang out like every Thursday for tea. And he would just tell me about the struggle it was for him to get in front of the class. He had to psych himself.

up, but he loved it once he got in front. And I don't know, him and I just kind of clicked. And it was learned behaviors that he illustrated to get students to pay attention. Now, why do we pick up these learned behaviors to put on to ourselves? Like, are we trying, are we walking through life trying to figure ourselves out? And we kind of just pick out these natural traits that we see in other people and just kind of like, oh, I want that. I want this. So there is some of that that happens in all people, right? There's adaptability. We all are social creatures, so we are designed to connect to one another in some way, shape, or form.

You see a lot of people in the neurodiverse community do this with, like, art or music or literature, these types of things. It's very common. This is a way to reach out and connect. Comedy is another one. They're wonderful comedians that are neurodiverse, including autistic. They're some of my favorite comedians are on the spectrum. But there's also an unhealthy aspect called masking that people do because without that, other people won't accept them.

And it's a survival mechanism. And it's actually a very unhealthy one. So what it does is it creates patterns that cause the brain to work in a way that's unnatural for it. And then that creates stress. It causes anxiety. It causes heart problems, digestive. issues, it causes undue stress. It's really a very traumatic experience. And it's one that's

extremely common from everything from autism to dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD on the mental health spectrum. It's, you know, society has told these people, you're not acceptable as you are. Plus, what a traumatic thing to be told. You know, you're not acceptable. you're not the thing you need to be different the way you are is bad yes and so there's also the mental trauma of that as well but even the physical as I described so there's healthy ways that we do that that we adapt like my husband learning to be funny he liked laughter and he liked that so he learned comedy's hysterical oh my god great delivery um in fact he got he got me the night we met by sitting there doing Andrew dice clay impressions for me and it was just it I just

died. It was so freaking funny. And then it was hilarious. Like, that just got me. But then there are the unhealthy ones, and they're the ones that suck, and we don't want to do that. That's the part that we have to move away from as a society. We have to just start accepting this is just who this person is. And that's good. That's a good thing.

They should be that way. Now, are we taken on traits from, say, previous experiences with relationships? and if we are, how we recognize that they are, I mean, being, like, acted out without our awareness at all? That's a, it's a lot of self-awareness and self-mapping. I do a lot of self-mapping to manage, especially my bipolar. I actually go unmedicated. I have, for the majority of my life, gone unmedicated with the bipolar one.

And I do that through self-matter. I had a great team. I want to be very clear. This took years and years and years of work. I did great team supporting me. Self-maping is a great tool for that. It's also one that can help you unlearn masked behaviors and help you kind of go back and be like, oh, okay. Yeah, this is not the thing that's good for me. So starting with starting to realize how you feel with each reaction. And, you know, when I do this thing, does that make me feel tense? Do I, you know, do things happen in my gut, your gut tells you so much. It's crazy how much your gut will respond to me.

And looking for those responses and then slowly unlearning them. And it's going to be a long process for some people. Now, some people take to it and they unmask like lickety split. It's almost like this whole other person is thinking out with you. So what's the difference with self-mapping and then trauma therapy, removing the trauma? Is there a difference with those two? There is a difference, but they're very related. And they're often used intertwined.

So, you know, it is, I do like to encourage people if you feel the need to pursue formal therapy options. I think that's a very beautiful thing to do. If you don't like traditional therapy, you can also pursue nerve work. There are a lot of people out there that do specific and be careful. Don't go to what I call the woo-woo crazy people. Go to the smart woo-woo people. Okay.

Go to the people to have scientific backing and actual medical backgrounds and can actually help you work with your nerves, these types of things, because it has kind of the same process as the trauma therapy, and then do the self-mapping and really start digging in and doing the tough work. I never heard of that self-mapping before, so I think that's really hard. You literally make a map. Like you make like charts or diagrams or you can draw it if you're artistic. I am not. Nobody wants to see my drawings. I was that kid that like my mom had to be like, So tell me about this because she had no idea what the drawing was. That's how bad it was.

So don't do. But, you know, it's, but that's what self-map. So with self-mapping, you actually map yourself so that you then go back and have a reference. So that when this happens, I know this happens, then this happens. And it establishes your patterns so that you learn to understand yourself and then react to them. So I'm imagining it more like a mind map. And starting from like the center, which is me, I mean, we have traits. We have characteristics.

things of values and then go further if and then put it in a situation where I'm challenged. I have these reactions and then from there I want to change a specific reaction and then bubble again to what I'm feeling versus what I'm not feeling. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I change this one little thing because I want this thing over here to change and then we map how that goes.

And then it, you know, and then we kind of go from there. For instance, I used this with the depression cycles for my bipolar. And then I eventually used them for the mania cycles as well. But we felt to start with the depression because it was deemed more dangerous at the time. And now I get through my depression cycle so easy because I know what's happening. So I wake up and I move around. I'm like, oh, that thing. And I've trained myself now to recognize, oh, this feeling is here.

my depression cycle is kicking in. That means I need to do this, this, this, and this, so that these things don't happen and these things do happen. And then I start to watch them and I look for the different patterns throughout the day so I know how to respond. My husband's great at that. He actually sees all of it before I even do. Yeah, you all that's my recommendation.

If you have bipolar, marry an autistic. It really works very well. But you're going to make them nuts when you're manic, but it's really good for you. But it's really, it's really, it's really, it's laughing. Yeah. But in situations like that. It's very true.

Yeah, but you know. Like, it's true. And, like, I have several very good friends that have ADHD. And I think it is the most delightful of the neurochipers. It's just like, when you just watch it and you just like, it's just like, and now we're over here. And then we circle back. And now we're back over here. And it's never boring.

That's what I like about it. It's never boring. But making sure that you're taking care of yourself, I think, is a part that a lot of us miss. A lot of us don't really learn ourselves. We don't really learn how to take care of ourselves. In fact, we were told our whole lives very specifically not to take care of ourselves, but to fit in with everybody else. And so for people in the neurodiverse community, they have to unlearn that.

And they have to learn that it's good to take care of themselves. So that their way is not wrong. That's how they're designed. That's how they're supposed to function. right you know you kind of always laugh like it's like telling a lion like hey go be a good fish and then getting mad at him and he's a terrible fish well yeah it's a terrible fish that's a really good analogy but i do remember like when i had these issues that i was dealing with that i was learning how to i wouldn't say fit in more like blend in so i wouldn't stand out because of what

was happening psychologically i felt like it was much bigger than that you know that than it really was. And definitely a healthy support system is what I need, is what I've always have needed. And because you're right, because they can see it before it's even happening. I'm like, how do you know I'm getting pissed off? I'm not getting mad. And then. And they're like, yeah, yeah, you are.

I'm like, oh, hey, yeah, I guess that makes sense. And like with the, with that like depression, that can usually last for about, what, 40 minutes to an hour, maybe longer, depending on if you don't. don't, I got to have my morning routine done. If I don't do it, then it, my whole day is fucked. So with bipolar, it actually lasts for weeks. And I have, and what goes up must come down, right? So you start with one end of the cycle.

For me, it's typically mania. As I, when I was younger, my depressive cycles were the stronger cycle. Now it's, it's the mania. And I much prefer the mania being a longer one. Yeah, yeah, it could be fun. I really do. It's kind of fun. It really is.

It's really great. I would not know from personal experience. I want to stress this. But my doctor who did my blood level said it was almost like I was at like the peak cocaine high for like two to three weeks. That's why I'm not sleeping then. That makes some sense. Okay. So like chemically what my body was doing.

That's, you know, that was kind of the equivalent. But yeah, it lasts a long time. It does. It's exhausting. It's like, okay, I'm tired. this now. I want to do this other thing. This is this is better. So now what's funny is I look forward to the depressive cycle because then I can sleep. Like I love the mania cycle, but then when the depressive cycle sits, it's like, yay, sleep. I go crawl into bed and I kind of catch up on my sleep.

But during the manic cycle, I can catch up on work. I get super creative, have lots of fun, And, you know, but it could be one of the most hard things I was ever told is, and I actually didn't realize this. Well, not that. My husband pointed it out to me that he had noticed my face when someone said this to me, which was that people go, oh, I was manic. And the person, the person saying this did not know that. Okay, I would be very clear.

Well, most people in my life do know the cycles and they can recognize them because I talk about them very openly. this person did not, as they were not trying to be rude, but they said to me, you know, oh, you're more fun like this. You should always be like this. And I was just kind of like, I'm not mad about it, but it was kind of like, oh, but I can't do this all the time. Yeah. Well, it's interesting is that we can even get addicted to these chemical changes in our body. Oh, yeah. We're the buildup to that moment, like, for the manic state, it's just, like, you could be

thinking about it like you're craving a snack. Like, it just- Oh, no, it's true. Yeah. Come in my mania. Like, there's times I'm sitting there like, come on, mania, come on, I need to be able to do this thing for work and I need you. Come on. Like, get going. I can't do it. I can't. I've tried for years. I can't jump-start it. If I ever figure that out, man, I'm going to be so excited. Yes, we've definitely had to share it with everybody. Share the share of that all. Here's how to turn it on and off.

But I really like, but no to your point, you do crave it. But the other thing that we crave, I think we miss a lot as humans. And this is true for neurodiverse people and non-neurrodiverse people, is that we are also addicted to our ego mechanism. Yes. That little, yeah, like hardcore, right? Yes. And for anybody listening who doesn't know what that is.

So the ego mechanism is naturally occurring. You should not feel bad that you have it. Okay. It is a naturally occurring defense mechanism that because your brain needs to be correct because to not be correct means that you're not safe. So the ego mechanism, when something has threatened a way that you think about something or your belief system, the ego mechanism is the thing that immediately starts going, no, I'm right, no, I'm right, no, I'm right.

And throwing up defenses as to why it's right. But that's why you see these insane social media arguments where people are just arguing beyond all reason and completely ignoring this completely logical point that's being made and just being ugly and nasty because their ego defense mechanism has caught on. And that's kind of an extreme version, but it's true. But we're addicted to that because it releases the dopamine and the adrenaline. And we actually get addicted to that. And so then we get more feisty, right? or we constantly want to argue with people. We can't wait to throw out our opinion about something.

And so instead of listening to someone and receiving what they're saying to us, and this kills inclusion, by the way, I see this all the time. So one of the first things I do when I go into an organization professionally and I work with them is I teach to respond in curiosity, not ego, and how to do that. Because without that, you're not going to have psychological safety. You're not going to have effective inclusion because somebody is going to come to you and say, hey, this doesn't work for me. And you're going to go, well, then you need to change. Uh, no.

This is really interesting. This is going a step deeper. I'm like, thank God. Like, this is, I'm glad we're doing this. Let's not hit the microphone. But don't do that. I didn't not my no for a minute ago. It's okay. So, like, we get addicted to the way our, our mind is responding. Now it's the conscious theme or, yeah, it's the conscious scheme of what's going on, but then it's those running thoughts that's the conscious scheme. And then when there's that gap, that's when our logic can kind of squeeze through their or self-awareness.

So how are you teaching leaders that ability to have that ability if they don't have it in the first place? Yeah, it's tough, right? And it's fun because what I start by doing is I start to bring up obviously controversial topics. And I just mention them. I don't go into them. I just mention them. And you see like the hackles, right?

You just see everybody get tense about something. The shock factor. Yeah. And they're like, she said that thing. And now I have this opinion and I need to get it out of here. You feel it. I go, that right there. You feel that feeling?

That's the ego mechanism. So first we have to learn to see it, right? we have to learn to see it. And then I pick one of the controversial topic. I say, don't worry, we're still not going to dive into it. This is not going to turn to a heated debate. But I then show them the mission alignment. So for instance, I did a class not that long ago.

And I said, okay, so we're going to talk about the issue of, my example is going to be the issue of how to treat transgender children. And you, again, you see those, right? Like everybody's got to pick up. Okay, on one side, you have people that are really concerned about the biological effects of, you know, hormone prevention or whatever that are very concerned about, you know, these types of never, yeah, yeah, yeah. On the other side, we're really concerned about suicidality and about mental health and about making sure that someone feels included and belonging. And then that side, yeah, yeah. What I hear is that you all care about children.

And everybody just paused. and you saw the ego go away. You saw it just go. And I said, you all care about children. That's what this is all about. I said, now you have different ways that you want to solve the problem that we have here, or the issue, whatever you want to call it. But you have a different solution in mind, right?

But the only way that you're going to get there is by asking questions and coming at it from the angle of we have this mission alignment. So the important thing is to number one recognize when that ego mechanism is kicking in. And then I teach people that I literally trained myself how to do this in four or five minutes. I would touch the arms of my chair or I would tap my foot once gently on the ground. And I taught my brain, when this happens, you have food on the table or in the pantry. nobody is trying to attack you you have oxygen to breathe you have money in the bank everything is okay so now my my brain i just spend a few minutes you know teaching my brain this happens it means this

this happens it means this literally four or five minutes so now if somebody says something to me that brings up that ego defense because it's still there trust me it's still there i'll just tap my foot one time very gently nobody even notices i'm doing it i take a quick breath just a and then I ask a question. And that's the pattern. You recognize it. You stop it and you calm it. And when you do that one little thing, whatever it is that registers for you, you can

squeeze your hand, tap your fingers, whatever it is. But that thing that lets your brain know, we're safe, so no thank you. I don't need these chemicals right now. Thank you so very much. And then when you respond with a question, it gets the conversation going off. So you can say something like, for instance, okay, so I hear what you're saying about how to handle, how to handle this issue. Can you tell me a little bit more about your thoughts on that? Or can you tell me where, you know, how you came to this conclusion.

I would love to learn more about your perspective, you know, and just kind of dive in. I've even said to somebody, this is what I received. Can you tell me did I understand you correctly and can even elaborate a little bit more for me on that? and just get into that conversation and just really let people in. What's interesting is your brain synapses actually change. So the actual design of your neuro patterns change. And your brain starts to understand if we ask questions, these positive things happen and we get more knowledge and more information.

And then there's less danger in the world because there's less blind spots. and then your brain gets super excited to ask questions, which by the way, then you kind of understand if you're neurotypical what it's like to be neurodiverse because a lot of us want to ask 50 million questions all the time. We actually have to restrain ourselves. So this practice is easier for certain communities

in the neurodiverse community than it is for everybody else in the neurodiverse community and everybody in the neurotypical world. There are certain people that are just going to take to this method very quickly. Okay, don't go any further. This is like a best, like, stopping point. Now, can we apply that strategy to other issues?

Like, can we apply it with anxiety? Say we have, like, stage, right? We have to give a presentation. Like, for somebody that is neurotypical, how would they apply it, but also somebody that maybe isn't, maybe it's something that they can try to develop? So it's, that's a great question. And this is actually sort of not exactly.

obviously because it's a different chemical response, but this is basically the same process that I used to get myself through the depression and to understand. So now I can tell my brain, I know what you're doing. And we're not actually in danger. We're not actually upset. It's not that everybody hates us. We're not alone. We're okay. Right.

And so understanding what's happening to you is very important. So number one, the first thing I tell people is whatever your response is, whether that you're trying to deal with, whether it's anxiety or anger or, you're, you know, or like a freeze response. Some people, it's not even quite anxiety, but just like their brain just kind of goes, and I'm off now. Now we're just starting off. Whatever that is, number one,

understand chemically what's happening to you. So do some research, look it up and say, okay, what is my body releasing? All right? Then kind of learn what needs to happen to counteract that. So, you know,

when you have the, with the example of the ego, response, right? You're, it's, it's an anxiety and it's the survival mode response. It's an attacky, like, I'm being attacked and I must defense. You have to tell your brain, no, we're not being attacked. We're okay. Calm down. You know, with the anxiety that's a fear, a fear based, right? Your body is like, it's kind of a freeze. It's a version of the freeze response. And so understanding how to counteract those chemicals. So I have somebody very near and dear to me who has just petrifying stage fright,

but loves to give talks, kind of like you were talking about their teacher, loves to give talks, loves to share the information, but just gets crippling stage fright. And so one of the exercises that we kind of came up together, she has a psychology background, one of the exercises that we kind of came up together,

was that before she goes on, she just walks herself through what's safe about it, the safety areas that have been put up for her, the boundaries that she set, that will make this safe. She walks herself through maybe, depending on the exact talk, you know, if this happened, this crazy thing does happen, if somebody asks a question I'm not familiar with, how can I respond? And how can I make that okay?

And just kind of processes herself through it to let her brain know we're okay, we're not going to be hurt. It's all right. It just kind of works herself through that. For a lot of neurodiverse people also prepping, like overprepping, can be very helpful. so actually coming with a list of different answers, you know, having a list of the questions that may be asked of you, may be very helpful. So again, you know, self-advocacy, actually, I would say is huge for that.

So self-advocacy, but then learning to understand what's happening to your body so that you know how to counteract it. Because a lot of people just do this like a free-for-all. Like, I'm having anxiety, so I'm just going to run around on a circle. Like, no, no, your body doesn't need more of those kinds of chemistry. It doesn't need more excitement chemicals. It needs chemicals that are going to calm it down. It needs to stop producing these chemicals.

Yes. So they put L-theneene in energy drinks, and I buy pure L-thianine, and it's really cheap. And I think it's like three or four bucks for a bottle of 120. I take a couple of those, and it kind of just relaxes me. It's for people that maybe have had too much caffeine. You take a few of those, and it can kind of get that jittery feeling out. Isn't it interesting too, like how different neurodiversity react chemically different to things? Yes.

It's fascinating to me. It's fascinating. It just, it's utterly crazy to me. Like a lot of people don't know that the drugs that were used to, quote, quote, treat ADHD for years were legalized speed. They were methamphetamines. They were giving to children. That's what they were doing. They were giving children methamphetamine.

And then they wonder, anyway, that's a whole other, that's a whole thing. of a conversation, but, but because of the chemical difference in the brain, it does calm a child down. You give those same human beings a downer. That's where you see some people that have, they have a very different reaction to alcohol that you're like, that's kind of bizarre. Maybe they thought makes them hyper, you know, which is interesting. So, so you see, I've seen people with ADHD that coffee makes them extremely calm. And it's very backward. So I always tell people, again, know your own body chemistry, know what you should and should not have.

I eat differently depending on where I am in my bipolar cycle. Oh, wow. Yeah, I have different dietary needs based on where I am. So with neurodiverse people, like we took on this superpower. I like to look at it that way through maybe something that's, I think it's something that's traumatic that's happened as as your younger self. For me, I've experienced with experience with some situations, and I've just adapted from recognizing people's intentions.

And now you keep developing now these intentions can be something that's applied to something much larger as to say, an organization or risk management. Oh, it's very true. Yeah. And I do think it's interesting because there's so many ways that you could end up with neurodiversity. It can be born. There are genetic components. There are trauma components, like you said, and there are medical components. So, for instance, my sister has a traumatic brain injury. That was random. You know, that was, that was, that was random. I have PTSD. That comes from

trauma. So there's all different ways that you can get. One of my neurodiversities comes from seizures and an unnamed neurodifference and how my neuropathy, my neurosynapses work in my brain. So it's interesting, right? Like there's just all these different ways that we can get there. But yeah, we do kind of end up again because we're creatures of balance. We're supposed to balance each other out. So balance ourselves out. So we do develop kind of these superpowers, like you said.

And actually, Johns Hopkins did some of the best research on that. It was fascinating. I'm sorry. I'm fixating on this moving truck. You're okay because I had a possum that was just hanging out in the broad daylight right outside my window for the first like 20 minutes of our talk. And I'm like, what is he doing? Awesome. Some of like nocturnal creatures. And he's just sitting out there munching on some nuts or whatever, just hanging out else on my window.

So it's okay. It's okay. Neurodiversity. Yes. I just don't know why. They just had to keep it in reverse like that long. It's stop being weird. Stop it.

So with management, like, how are they applying this understanding into today's workforce with this? I mean, we're going into mental health, but now with understanding neurodiversity, what is that entail for people that happen? So the number one thing that I tell everybody is stop insisting that everybody work in the same way. It doesn't make any sense. It never has made any sense. Thank you. Thank you. Nobody, nobody's going to work in the same way. I really need people to just stop with that. So people are going to communicate differently. They're going to need different tools. They're going to need different setups to their actual physical workstation, whether they're in person or remotely, or working remotely. And so we need to understand. And they're going to receive information differently, too. And it's really funny because whatever I do my talks, And I get asked, what if you have a leader that likes to communicate this way and the employee

likes to communicate this way? And I say, okay, well, here's some tools. I give some specific tools that they can use to help bridge that gap. That way everybody is accommodated because that's what you want, right, is inclusion of everybody. And I do tell people, but ultimately, let's say you can't find a compromise, which I have yet to find a situation where you can't. But let's just say that you can't. You chose leadership, so suck it up.

you you chose you chose to be in a position to take care of the other humans so they come before you so if I am ever in a situation where I and this has happened to be before some of the technological advances that we have today where I have to choose between my comfort and that of my team my team comes first 100% of the time and I will always say that that's what should be required yes because we chose that right that's different that's our choice but But now there's so many advances that it's so freaking cool. So if you have somebody, for instance, who I'm going to give a total plug to one of my favorite accommodations, if you have someone who likes to monologue, right, there's several neurodivers that like to monologue. And sometimes it's very directional as is typical with autism.

And sometimes it's a little bit more chaotic as is more common with dyslexia or ADHD. So there is a cool new app called storied. And the web address for that is B Story. It's okay, Babes. She's having a crisis. And I just need you to know it. Barley, it's all right, babe. She's dreaming and I'm trying to.

Animals always throw up. My cat has come and just yelled directly into my mic, like mid monologue. It was hilarious. But yeah, so BStory.A.I. And what this technology does is, you talk it to it and you just go off, right? And you do whatever it is that you want to do. And then it comes back and it says,

hey, I noticed that you said this multiple times. Is that the recurring theme? And then it starts to piece together everything. You know, I noticed that in the middle of this, you started talking about squirrels. Do you want me to take that out?

That doesn't seem relevant to the conversation. And it takes that out. And it pieces everything together. So then you can send something in writing to this other human, right? and that's organized and methodical. And so if you're a person at any level in an organization and you're having trouble getting your thoughts in an organized fashion, use something like Story. Story is my favorite, but there's other technologies out there.

But use those technologies to help you. Chat GPT, it doesn't really help you organize and stuff like that. But use those technologies, use them, use grammarly to help you, you know, with with your writing. But another one, good, good. And there's another thing, though, that cracks me up. Companies will have only one way to do a process or a procedure. Yeah.

I think, no, no, no. And so when I teach organizations is focus on the mission of whatever it is. This is the thing that needs to get done. How we get there is completely flexible. Completely flexible. Like, this is the thing that has to be accomplished, all the rest of it. you know we can we can bend shape whatever and then again that ego thing comes into play too like let your ego go because that's some of it too right you see so many companies they're like oh we designed

this so it must be perfect it's like they take it like a personal affront that you have a new way to do it's like no just just chill out with that so with so with neurodiversity um number one make accommodations into standard options stop making it a big hoopla party to the department of labor 54% of them are free. There is no excuse. Just make them standard options. Be flexible. Listen to your team. And another one, too, is quit being nosy. I've never understood why people feel like they need to know your diagnosis or they need to know this or that. You should have enough psychological safety that your team is comfortable telling you. But let's say there's some reason they don't. Maybe they just, maybe you have a great team, but this person's had a lot of trauma. And maybe they've been discriminated

against countless times or something like that, they don't want to tell you, or they just don't want to freaking talk about it. All you need to know is what they need and how it will help. You don't need to know why. That's like that. Yeah. Right. Like you don't. Like just don't be nosy. I did a whole campaign of posts about that a while about like hashtag don't be nosy. So true. Just don't do it. You just need to know the what and the how. And I think that if we can shift the mindset of the workplace to that, to focusing on what and how, and to focusing on universal design, which means for everybody, and understanding that you'll then have to update and be flexible and all that.

And all of that's designed in, which IT people always catch on to that so quick because that's kind of what they do, right? Well, they should be. That's how we approve it. And that's how we create a fully inclusive workplace for everybody, no matter, neurodiversity, culture, age, you know, whatever it is, LBG, TQIA, whoever it is, that's how you, that's how you create inclusion. That's it. It's very simple. It's universal design. It's listening and it's and it's designing with everybody else in mind, not from your perspective.

Wow. You you hit it right on the head. Let's transition to closing. Now, Catherine, I'm going to leave you with the floor and let you share with our audience, whatever you would like to share and how they can get in touch with you. They want to learn more. Oh, that's frightening. I could just say whatever I want. That's horrible.

No, no. So this is what I like to be people with, is learn thyself, first of all. Come to these deep understandings, especially with the responding and curiously. curiosity, not ego. And by the way, if anybody wants to learn more about that, reach out to me. I am glad to walk you through it, talk to you about it, give you more information. It will change your life at an exponential rate. It changes how you communicate with everybody that you know. It changes how your brain processes information.

It increases intimacy with other humans because let me tell you, there's nothing more intimate than letting somebody change the synapses in your brain. Okay. People always talk about the intimacy of sharing something about yourself, but the intimacy of letting somebody in is an entirely different thing. And it just makes your life more beautiful and wonderful. So I want to encourage everybody to do that. Learn yourself, learn how to take care of your body the way you are. And please know that you are designed exactly how you are supposed to be. You are not wrong. You are not less than. You are not defective in any way. I mean, I'm definitely defective. I have more. medical conditions the most 87-year-olds. But my base design, before all of that kicked in, my base design was really great. And my mind works exactly as it should. So I want to encourage everybody out there to be comfortable with yourself, reach out to those other people who will embrace you and love you exactly as you are

and support you in your journey of unmasking and discovering a healthy way to be. If you want to reach out and connect with me, I'm all over LinkedIn. I'm on there way the heck too much. I'm easy to find just Catherine McCord. You can also go to my speaker site, which is k.macord speaking.com. Or if you want to learn a little bit more about neurodiversity, I did start a charity called the neuroverse, and that's joined the neuroverse.org. And neurovers is N-E-U-R-O-B-E-R-S-E.

And we have some events coming up. So feel free to check those out. Yes, ma'am. I'll be sure to link all of that in the show notes. Catherine, I do appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. Were you able to get everything perfect? Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that's it. You were laughing about me, like, well, no, I'm depicted. I'm like, it's relatable. It's relatable. That's what makes it true. I mean, it's very relatable. I did a post a while back about, about, my eight disabilities.

I was like, this is it. I literally wasn't, not a false story. I literally one time had Aflac called me when I was in my 20s. And they thought they had my age wrong because they're like, there's no way to somebody their 20s has all. Oh, wow. And it made me laugh so hard. That was one of the funniest moments.

I'm just watching that poor person be so embarrassed. It's okay. They were just like, oh, no, she's going to hate it. us and I'm like, that's okay. All right. I'm not mad. Geez, my jaw is killing me. I haven't, I haven't spiled like this long in like an interview. So this was a great experience for me. So I really do. I'm glad. I'm so very glad. I'm so very glad. And please take care of the puppy. I get, I get how I get what that's like. So yeah, I have my whole zoo out there waiting on me.

Yes, ma'am. I'll get everything all set up and I will email you everything once it's all completed. That sounds wonderful. All right. And stay in touch to you. If there's anything you can do to support you, let me know. Yes, ma'am. And likewise.

Thank you. All right. Bye. Thanks for joining us on this adventure of growth and discovery. If you're ready to achieve a sustainable transformation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button. never miss an episode. And hey, if you've enjoyed the show and want to support it, take a moment to leave a podcast review on Apple or your favorite podcast platform. Stay connected with us on

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