Your World Within Podcast by Eddie Pinero - Jason Harris | The Soulful Art of Persuasion

Episode Date: August 28, 2021

Join Jason and me for a phenomenal conversation around the importance of persuasion through storytelling, authenticity and relationship building.   Jason Harris is the co-founder & CEO of the award-winning creative advertising agency Mekanism, co-founder of the Creative Alliance and author of the national bestseller, The Soulful Art of Persuasion. Harris works closely with brands through a blend of creativity and performance. We call this approach Soul + Science. Iconic brands include Peloton, Ben & Jerry’s, Jose Cuervo, Alaska Airlines, Charles Schwab and OkCupid, among others. He was named a Campaign US 40 Over 40 honoree for his noteworthy contributions to the advertising & marketing industry. His methods are studied in cases at Harvard Business School.

Welcome to the Your World Within podcast. I'm Eddie Panero. And in today's episode, I sit down with entrepreneur and author Jason Harris. He wrote the soulful art of persuasion. And I tell you, this is one of the best books I've read in a long time, particularly because it takes the art of persuasion of selling and puts it in a light that's very relatable to me. And so I've been dying to get him on the show to delve further, delve deeper into that and how persuading or selling isn't something, you know, reserved for quote unquote salesmen, saleswoman. It is something that we all do every day with our ideas, how we express ourselves. And it's an important thing. And so Jason, who is the founder of mechanism, which is a marketing company that works with some of the biggest brands in the world,

their marketing campaigns, talks about what has made his company so impactful, what's made them so good, and also takes it down to a personal level with things we can do every day to be more persuasive with our beliefs and our ideas, help change thoughts and minds, be more authentic, you know, be better storytellers, be better relationship builders, because that is how you persuade. It's how you persuade the right way. So again, Jason Harris, founder of mechanism, author of the soulful art of persuasion, and just an all-around good dude. Ladies and gentlemen, I am super excited to be hanging out with Jason Harris. Jason, thanks for joining me.

Hell yeah. Good to be here. So I just want to say this book right here, The Soulful Art of Persuasion, The Eleven Habits that Will Make Anyone a Master Influencer, it was a phenomenal read and why I'm so excited to be sitting with Jason today. You know, I certainly don't want to speak for other people's experiences, but me personally, you know, when I think persuasion, when I think selling, I think very transactional. And one of the things that I thought was so great about this book, the theme throughout is you say no. Selling's very, it's very human.

It's about authenticity and storytelling and it's about relationships in the long-term game. And a lot of stuff here that everyone can benefit from. And maybe that's a good starting point. Like what is persuasion to you? And why does that matter to people trying to get their ideas out to the world? Yeah, so, you know, when I sort of started thinking about this book, I run an advertising agency that I started about 15 years ago. And so we have, you know, we do advertising for big clients like Peloton, Ben and Jerry's, Jose Cuervo, you know, big brands that we sort of strategically lead on what the brand's going to say to the world. So I always think about what I do for living is advertising, which is persuading consumers to pick this product over that product and to buy a certain product or service.

And so that really to me, advertising is persuasion. But if you break that down, persuasion we are all doing all day long. So as a podcast host, you're persuading. guests to come on your show, right? You're persuading a quote to inspire your audience with with thoughts and make them think and try to help them with improving how they, how they approach, you know, life and business. And so to me, to take back the word persuasion, the idea of soulful was sort of the twist on it. And so the big play on the book is the idea that persuasion really comes from the cultivation of character and building habits that

allow you to play the long game, be more successful, have better relationships, and it's all about personal growth. And so character is really what it's all about. And persuasion to me isn't about facts and figures and pricing and arguments. It's really about your personal character. And what persuades people is the person saying the thing. It's not necessarily the thing that you're saying. It's about, do I trust this person?

Is this person out for their own gain? Is this person looking out for me as well? And so if you can become more of the type of person that people want to agree with, you're going to find more success. And so that was really the idea. behind the book. And I had read a gallop poll that said the most, the most sort of disingenuous professions or the least trustworthy professions

were number one, politician, number two, car salesman, and number three, advertising practitioner. And so when I read that, I was like, well, that's not how I've built my business. And yes, we're in the, in the business of persuasion and influencing, but you can do that in a way that is genuine and authentic. It doesn't have to be slimy. So that's sort of how I wanted to bring my code of living

and my code of approaching business out to the world. That's what I thought was so refreshing because it's, I mean, it's true. Like especially in this digital age where, you know, an ad before every video is like, Do you want to change your life in three days? And for you to be like, dude, no, you have to be yourself. You have to play the long game. You have to build relationships. You have to add value.

It's like all these things that I don't know if it's just the fast-paced nature of the world we're in, but people seem to overlook. They do. And I think brands, you know, we all have, we have personal brands. The brands that I work with, they are, you know, they're sort of similar. Like if you're building a brand, the brand. the brand has to be authentic. It has to know what it stands for. It has to have a code or a creed.

And when you're building your personal brand, you have to do the same. Yeah. So, you know, we would always advise against doing anything that's not endemic to the brand or a core belief of the brand that we're building or the people that started the company. And so we really try not to do that type of advertising. That is transactional. You know, it's more about long-term brand building, just like, when you're building your personal brand, it's about playing the long game, not short-term

transactional thinking going from, you know, yes to yes, to know, to know, and moving on. It's really about every time you present, every time you pitch something, every time you don't make a sale, that's a connection that you made, that's someone that you can add to your network. And maybe you don't get business from that person today, but you've spent the energy and investing in them. And so you keep them in your, in your network and your, your connections, and maybe they'll recommend you down the road. Maybe you'll work with them later. But I used to, I used to be in the space of they said, no, I'll move on. They said no, I'll move on, versus looking at it as it's not a no, it's a no for now. But I'm going to keep that

relationship going. And I can't tell you how many businesses that I've lost, but then have come back two or three years later because, you know, I added value to them when I wasn't even working or engaged with them. And so, yeah, that's sort of the idea of never be closing versus always be closer. I like that never be. So, yeah. And I used to be an always be closing guy, you know. A lot of these principles that I believe in, they were trying to. trial and error as I was building the business and I had to realize, well, that's not really how I want to come across and that's not genuine to me. So I changed a lot of my behaviors. Was there a shift that prompted that? Because I, to me, it's a big difference between, you know,

trying to win the moment and thinking, you know, big picture. So like in my personal world, a lot of the relationships and business partners I have now, you know, it's like you reach out and you don't ask for anything or trying to, you just say, hey, I like what you're doing. I mean, you speak about the value that they brought into your life and you just sort of plant a seed. And it's like, you know, you speak about this in your book. I think beautifully, the idea that what can you give? Like it's your, you know, Evan wrote a book on it too, Bill to Serve, Evan Carmich.

Like the idea that when you look at like, what can you give to the world? What value can I add? How can I be of service? It's almost like the chips around you change, like the pieces around you change. Can you talk a little bit about why that's important? Sure, yeah. And I think that's, you know, one of my principles are, and, you know, just sort of macro picture, I've got this sort of concept that, you know, I have these four beliefs,

these four beliefs is my belief system. And it's really for life and for business. But it's about being original, generous, empathetic, and soulful. And I created, you know, these symbols on the book. And I have them like, oh, that's so cool. On my arm. And I kind of have this new belief that everybody should have, you know, four or five principles.

They could be similar to the ones if they resonate with you, you know, take these principles. but you might have, you know, Eddie might have one or two other ones or you might have five new ones that are different than this. But I think creating almost like a code of conduct or a creed of beliefs and how you approach things makes you stay on task and makes you always go back to that. And if you feel like you're waning or getting a little bit off, you have this grounding thing to come back to a set of beliefs. And so when it comes to this idea of generosity, that to me was not, some of these like being myself might come more naturally to me. Being generous did not come naturally, naturally to me. So like when I first started my company, I would hoard my contacts.

I would keep like information to myself because I thought that was the battle. I thought like when you're in the business of any business, but zero some game. Yeah, it's a knife fight. It's like I win, they lose, they win, I lose. And so I would be very, hold everything very close to the vest. And I realized over time that was my natural inclination, but it was wrong because your world gets very closed in and small. And I then changed it. And when I talk about these habits, they,

if you practice something long enough, it becomes habitual and it becomes subconscious. But you have to make that shift and you have to work on it and practice it. And so when I started realizing, okay, I'm going to flip this and have a generous nature and try to give something away at every interaction when I cross past with someone, I'm going to try to make their world just a tiny bit better. And so if I have a client looking for a role to fill or if I have a friendly competitor that, you know, a client I can't work with, but maybe they could work up with,

I could pass them on or if someone's looking for, you know, kind of anything that can help their business. I give that stuff away freely versus gardening. And you can't quantify, it's what you were saying. You can't quantify, you can't do an Excel spreadsheet, and say, well, I did this and it paid off, you know, five times X. But what you know is that it comes back with compound interest because then people start coming into your orbit

and you start getting referrals in your business and you start making more contacts because you're a generous spirit. That's part of your character and people want to help you out. And when you're closed off and you're thinking about it as a zero-sum game, all of a sudden you kind of run out of options. You run yourself into a corner. And so that idea of generosity, I always think about, okay, maybe there's a client, you know, I pitch this sports drink. I didn't win it.

But I read this article about the category. I'm going to send it to that person and, you know, give them something that I'm thinking about or throw them an idea that they didn't ask for just to build that relationship and give something away. Or if I, you know, someone needs advice or counsel, I'll carve out the time for it. So it's just, that's one principle that's kind of giving a, having a generous spirit. And that took me years to sort of cultivate and change my, my sort of, I'm in a knife fight and it's me or the other guy. Yeah, it's funny because it's counterintuitive. I mean, it truly is. I know.

I forget who said this to me, but it resonated. It was like there's always room at the top. Like, and not only that, the people that you think are your competitors, I mean, with some, you know, degree of. you know, but they can become your allies. And there's opportunity to both win. To your point, it's just, yeah, there's no number or algorithm that's going to show you exactly why that's beneficial. It's like you just have to live it, which is why it sort of brings me to my next question. Like, I loved these principles, original, generous, soulful, empathetic.

Like, how, and maybe this is, you know, too big a question, but like, how did they come? come about? Was it you sitting down with an open one day and being like, what, what does this mean to me? What are the four most important things in my life? Did you kind of piece it together? Because I think it's incredibly valuable. And I think a lot of people listening are going to want to do the same. They're going to want to figure out for themselves what their core principles are so that they can, you know, follow in your footsteps. Yeah, definitely. I think, yes, it's sort of, they were written in a journal. I did keep track of them.

They sort of came over time as I was really building a business. And I, you know, it's easier as you're later in your career to sort of reflect and synthesize the way that you go about building something. But a couple, like this idea of being yourself, this idea of original, the first principal. So that's something that I really kind of started with early on and said, okay, I'm going to try to create a space and a business where people feel like they can truly be themselves and let their freak flag fly and really lean into their idiosyncrasies. And I want to do the same, you know, within reason and not making people uncomfortable. but that you should feel like you're coming to work with your true self and you're working with friends and that should be sort of the spirit of the company. So I kind of had that one more as this is how I want to show up and this is how I want to

encourage other people here to show up. So I kind of had that one pretty early on in the business. And that really, I worked at some other places where I really felt like, Like, you know, I had to go on with a mask and show up in a different way based on the environment. And so that's something I really was like, that made me uncomfortable and I don't want to create, I don't want to perpetuate that. And so that's, that was one that I kind of came up with early on and did write that down and had a code of conduct around it of, you know, we want to know you're, I want to lead as a, be as a leader and as a CEO, be voluntary. vulnerable, you know, tell people that I don't have it all figured out when I don't. I want to, you know, let people know the things that I'm into and my strengths and weaknesses

that will make them comfortable to do the same. And so, yeah, that was, I had that one kind of early on in the business. Okay. So it's just, it's through life experience and being aware. And I think that one specifically is, you know, I, I'm so interested. interested in the authenticity part, you know, because I speak to a lot of people about this. I've experienced it myself. And there's a quote, too, about, like, you know, staying original in a world that's

constantly trying to make you someone else is an incredible accomplishment. And so did you ever find yourself having to step back and ask yourself who you are? And I say this from the standpoint of someone who, you know, pretty strong in my conviction. understand my vision, understand who I want to be. But life can get so diluted following other people's footsteps. Here's what works. Here's what's right. Here's how it should be done to stay truly focused.

Like what was your journey like in that regard? Yeah, that I kind of, it is a process. And I talk about in the book how tools to make sure you are. your own self and that you do know who you are. Because sometimes we just sort of power through and we ping pong between, you know, career, jobs, personal stuff. And we're not really taking the time to reflect about what, who we really are, the things we care about.

That does take discipline and time. And I did a lot of self-reflection on that, just like you did, in order to, you know, get to where you are and realize that, you want to inspire people with your stories and your speeches, but to inspire people, you need to know those stories. You need to know who you are. You need to know how you're trying to communicate and come across. And so one fundamental aspect of that is storytelling and learning to be a really good storyteller

because stories connect and transport people. And it is that emotional connection. And, you know, we see that in the marketing advertising world, but in your personal world as well. And one way to get to know who you are is to reflect on your experiences and turn those into stories and things that have happened to you in your life and why they stand out and why they're important to you. Another thing is to look at who your role models are and why those are your role models. What characteristics do you want to emulate and why do you, you know, love that band or that author? Why do you love that book?

Why do you love that, you know, I don't know, sports player for whatever reason? Whatever your role models could be, and they could be, you know, friend role models too. Think about those characteristics that you want to emulate, and that helps you identify who you want to become and who you are. And so drawing inspiration from role models, from stories, stories that happen to your life, pivotal moments in your life that shaped you. try to reflect on those and write them down a lot of journaling really helps and then um books and movies that speak to you books movies and music that speak to you that you love you know why why do you love them what is the story of that book that resonates with you or the character building or that movie that spoke to you for what reason those are stories too you know they it can be

It's not just stories that happen in your life. It's stories that are famous and well-known that are good allegories that you resonate with. And you can leverage those to also express who you are. But that takes, you know, you're kind of hitting on it. It takes reflection and writing it down and knowing a key bank of stories that you respond to and why. And that really helps you know yourself better. better over time. But if you don't do that reflection, you'll know yourself a bit, but you're sort of just kind of wander through life in the world without a whole lot of reflection and assessing

really more about who you are. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing what you miss when you don't stop and think. And the the storytelling part was something that I just feel like you hit out of the park. Like I really, I really liked that in the book and the emphasis on it. You're clearly a great storyteller. And I remember, you know, Eval Harari and Sapiens talking about how innate story, like, seeing the world in stories would separate human beings from everyone else and sit from the days of sitting around a campfire to where we are now. And so is there anything that you feel like you The mind is, you know, the mind is a story processor, not a logic processor. And that's how we connect with other people. is through stories and identifying, oh, I see where he's coming from with that story because

that transports me. And logic doesn't get us there, you know. We're not. But anyway, we're going. No, that was where I'm going. Like, we're not logical. We're rational. I mean, we're not rational. We're emotional. Emotional, definitely. What has anything that you've noticed helped you along the way transform? I mean, even your social media, like your Instagram page, right, where you share some

of your ads and these like beautiful out of the box like it just it's it's it tugs on an emotional cord and has anything helped you to connect those dots or draw that line um and move away from maybe not say what things are but so beautifully articulate what that means and why that matters Yeah. I think, yeah. I mean, I think the idea is to take another level, you know, when we're creating a campaign, like, what are you trying to express to the audience? And then what is the best way to tell that story and to make it land and resonate? And that's done through story and emotional connection. It's not. done through a set of bullet points and data. It's done through. Like, oh, that image and that line connects with me and I get what they're trying to communicate.

And, you know, it's the same for you telling a story. But I think the, this idea of knowing who you are, we should all be on the journey of. And, you know, the greatest story of all is, is your story. And I always think about, because I went through part of my life with my story being kind of written for me. And, you know, not. Meaning just sort of on autopilot or? Just sort of going through like, I'll do this thing and then I'll try to find this kind of job.

And then I'll go over here. And just sort of ping ponging without knowing, you know, you want to write your story. You want to write like the end of your story and then work backwards as a person, you know, storytelling. Like figure out what, where you want to end up and then figure out the chapters to get to that end point and work backwards. And so often we all just sort of let the story unfold before our eyes without knowing what the end of our story, because that's the greatest story of all is our own unique story.

And so how do you figure out who you are, where you want to go, what the endpoint is, and then you work the chapters backwards. And I think that's, you know, for graduates or, you know, people maybe that didn't go to college but started in the working world, whatever it might be, that's a great time to like think about that. Yeah. And not just ping pong. And then you end up where you end up. And that's a hard thing to do, you know? Yeah, it's so powerful. I mean, have a destination to work back from.

And it's funny because, like, so much critical advice, in my opinion, is so commonplace, so common sense. Yet, like, we miss it. We miss the big things. Because similar to you, you know, I spent a decade wandering. Like, I didn't know what, you know, I was doing what I was, quote, unquote, supposed to do, but I never thought about my story. What was it? What were you doing? I went from college to like property casualty insurance.

I was like training people. And it's funny because I, you know, I met some incredible people. I learned some incredible stuff. But it absolutely unequivocally was not me. And so it took me a long time to understand that and get the courage to step away from that. But I'd never ask. How'd you do it? How'd you like what light went off where you were like, oh, I don't.

This isn't like, I can't be doing this for the rest of my life. Sure. I mean, it was a lot of little things, you know. I liked songwriting and writing music, playing music, making videos, creative writing, doing all these things. So I was like building a home studio and stuff and kind of doing both at once. And then finally was like, you know, when you dread going to work long enough, you realize you got to make a change. Yeah. So that was kind of, you know, did you have a similar, I guess, pivot point?

Or? Well, I knew, I kind of knew I was a little bit different because I knew marketing and advertising I kind of wanted to go into as a career. Oh, you had direction. Yeah, kind of early on. But that being said, what I didn't have direction on is there, I had this like nagging feeling when I worked at all these different companies that I wasn't fulfilled and that the companies, some of them were great, but some of them that I worked for, I didn't feel, I didn't connect with their belief system or the way they, you know, it was very political or, you know, people would, it's very competitive, people stepping on each other's heads to, you know, get ahead. And I just felt like while I was in the sort of right industry, I didn't feel like this was representative of my values or what I believed in.

And so that's when I figured out, oh, I want to start something with my own set of values and then really go the entrepreneur route. And so I didn't start early on like, oh, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. But if I had thought about it, I would like, oh, one day I'm going to open up my own place and then I'd work backwards. But I kind of just worked at different places until that dawned on me a little bit later. and then that's when I set out to do that. Did you have to do some heavy persuading on those close to you that it was the right move, the entrepreneur path? I did, yes.

I did indeed because, you know, when we started, you know, I went from maybe like when you started in your new career and you were getting paid in casualty insurance pretty well and training people. And then you took a jump. And when we started the company, you know, I really didn't make money. And, you know, one way I believe when you start companies, you, at least in our business, which is a service business, we did work for free to build like, oh, well, they worked with Microsoft or they worked with, you know, PlayStation or whatever big brand you can think of. we would do that work. We pitch an idea and say, all right, we're going to create this for you,

and you can run it if you like, if not, you know, no big deal. And we would sort of do free work to build case studies to then get real clients and get paid. And so that I firmly believe like when you start, that's what you do. You have to build the cred. You can't start with no cred and then all of a sudden get a bunch of fat jobs. So there's an investment in blood, sweat and tears to build that up and build those case studies. But I believe that's the fastest way to then get, you know, real clients and real work and real money. Yeah.

And so it was lean for a long time. And we had when we were building the business, we had like about three times when we, you know, couldn't make payroll. And we were like one job away from the whole thing, you know, closing. And so I guess, I guess. guess that's a long way of saying that, you know, figuring out what you want to do as early as you can when you don't have crazy bills, crazy dependence, you know, you're kind of on your path and you can make some more sacrifices easier. And that's why I think figuring out your story sooner than later is really mission critical. Yeah, that's all. I mean, and that's, in my opinion,

And what makes entrepreneurship or thought leadership, whatever, creators, artists, that's what makes the beginning so difficult. It's because you have to exhaust so much time and energy with getting very little value back. To your point, you have to add enough value and build enough credibility to stand on. And you just don't do that overnight. It takes a long time. And it's anxiety-inducing, you know. It's super stressful. Yeah. And then it can be rewarding, you know.

Absolutely. That's the hope. So there's one point in here that it's obviously pertaining to marketing, but I think it applies so many levels, and particularly today. And I want to kind of get your thoughts on why it's important. So you talk about the ability to see things from another. person's point of view. Think like them. Understand why they feel the way they feel. And, you know, at a personal, communicative level makes sense.

Marketing level makes sense in a world where we are incredibly polarized politically, you know, it makes sense. And I think the reason, and I usually don't like to go this route, but I just think it's such an important thing and it's such an important message for people to understand. In a world where we seem to be void of that, where it's easier to. to say left, right, you, me, Yankees Red Sox, right? How can we be better at seeing from the guy or gal across from us, you know, from their point of view or their lens?

Yeah, that's a, that's a great, a great topic to talk about because I think it's, it's imperative. And it, you know, in a world of, you know, politically in this world of, you know, politically in this world of like picking aside, it seems much harder today than it's ever been. But I think it's much more critical. And I think it takes a different approach. It takes like some switch in your brain to become a more empathetic person. And, you know, I certainly don't always get this right, but I'm always striving to do it. And I think the fundamental thought that I always start with is the human condition and that we're, you know, 99.9% the same DNA. And there's 0.1% that makes us that first principle, original and unique and different.

But that, as humans, we're that similar. You know, we're all that similar that we, you know, most of us want the same things out of life, but for whatever reason by our background or the way we were, we were nurtured or our experiences, we're going to pull into, you know, different belief sets, and that's okay. But if you go back to that idea that we want to save things out of life, you know, to be safe and happy and have joy and love and that, that's sort of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the thing I always fall back on and try to come back to. And so when we think about being empathetic, trying to develop a natural curiosity

about other people and listening to their stories. That's why storytelling is so key and where they came from, why they think the way they did, not that, you know, throwing more facts and arguments at them and trying to change their mind, know that that's the way they think, but try to uncover why that is that they they think that way. And when you do that, there's a story that I always tell, but an example of that is

whatever, wherever you fall, a political example, but wherever you fall on, we should, you know, close our borders, or we should be all right with, because we're all immigrants, dealing with immigration in a way, that is acceptable. Wherever you fall on that spectrum,

I got into an argument with a friend of mine about that. And he was so against immigration and people coming in this country. And I was trying to really uncover why. And instead of just throwing stats at them at him or just going louder and saying my point of view, I kind of uncovered, okay, why do you feel so strongly about that? Like what experience did you have? What's underneath that? And it turns out when he was growing up in a sort of farm area of the country,

and it was just him and his dad, his mom had passed away. His dad did sort of labor jobs and farm jobs, and he got fired for a period because there were immigrants that were doing the job that undercut him and they were doing it for cheaper. And he lived with his dad in his car for a period of time, and his dad couldn't find work. And they were, you know, really struggling, really down and out and homeless. And he always, you know, to him, that was immigrants took away my home,

my safety of my related, hampered how my father viewed the world. And so he grew up with that. And that, instead of saying, you know, you know, we're all immigrants throwing facts and figures out of him. I really uncovered why he felt that way. And that's just a little story of if you develop that curiosity and you go deeper, you can connect with that person. It doesn't mean you have the same few because we all have different experiences,

but you understand each other. And understanding each other is you're on the road to empathy. And when you don't and you lock out, then you're just too. They're just two people that got in a huge fight and disagree. And so now I understand maybe if I was in that situation, I would share those beliefs so I can connect with them on the other. And so that's just, you know, hopefully a useful example. Yeah.

Do you think, and this is going to be a perfect segue back into the marketing that you do? I mean, do you think that when you're looking at two polarizations like that, the truth is often in the gray space? like the, you know, there's the emotive piece. Let's use your current example. Like people are displaced. Their lives are in danger. We are all immigrants.

And we have to some extent a moral duty to help fellow humans. And then you have the rational piece, which is our government's job is to protect its citizens, which means definitionally there has to be a border. There has to be some rules and confines. Otherwise, we don't have a nation. and we can't uphold laws. And it's like the truth to me is never one way or the other. It's always in the middle. It is.

And yeah. And have you noticed that like? I think that's awesome. That point, the point you're making is so good because when you're being empathetic, you try to connect in that gray space, which is what you're saying. And I love that idea.

And so, you know, that's another tool. Like I think you just hit on a tool of, when you're when you're when you're trying to be empathetic thinking about us is the 99.9% all the same think about how do we how do I have this conversation and it's good for business how do we hit the gray area how do we how do we each bend a little bit to hit that gray area and try to find not focus on our differences but focus on our commonalities and then land in that space and so in the marketing world

Like you, you had a recent campaign. What was the latest post you had where you had? There was, like, really out of the box stuff on Instagram. For OKCupid? Yes, yes, yes, yes. For that dating up, yeah. Like, something like that. When you're thinking about how to appeal to a target audience, like, how do you break that down?

What are your, like, are you looking at the world, like you find a demographic, you look at the world through that specific. viewpoint, are you trying to broaden a horizon? Like, what's your thought there? Yeah, so there's always sort of, when you're thinking about a campaign, there's always research and insight, either that you'll work on a client with or that you'll bring to the table. But it's who's the audience and what makes the audience tick and what are they looking for and what buttons can I press to connect with them. And so you do do research before you even come up with, you know, the creative teams even come up with a concept. You have to do your research and really understand the audience and then understand the brand.

And then you figure out ways that you're going to connect those two together. And that takes, you know, it looks like, oh, what a crazy idea. They just came up with a crazy idea. But there's a lot of insight and research and analysis that goes behind even before you even have a creative brief and start a project. And so, you know, that that idea was behind OKCupid was that they believe that everyone has a right to find a connection in this world no matter what you're into, like whatever weird things you're into, whether it's, you know, open relationships, multiple partners. You're into, you know, you're a hippie, you're, you know, a foot fetish person, you're into, you're into, you know, a foot fetish person, you're into. being a submissive, whatever, you know, your gender fluid.

And so this idea behind this campaign is just every single and every single person deserves to find, you know, love in their own way. And so we made it stand out by making it, you know, a poppy color, crazy photography, and just having it say, all right, this is weird and wild enough that they really do mean it's for everyone. Yeah. And so that was sort of the idea behind it. Yeah, it was eye-opening.

It really was. And the theme is the same. Understand, you know, the people across from you and communicate to them in a way that, to your point, is authentic to you. And I understand running up on the clock here. So maybe I'll leave you with one more question. Something you talk about is positivity counteracting negativity. And I speak on this a lot. I think it's one of the most important messages, you know, for someone to understand.

It's that in every situation, there is something positive. There is something to be gained there. What have you found along the way or has anything helped you that, you know, when things go wrong, campaign doesn't go the way you wanted it to do, business deal falls out, something your personal life doesn't go the way you want it to, that allows you to stop and gain some perspective, find the positive and move on in the way that's beneficial to what you want in the big picture. Yeah, I think. To me, practicing positivity is really just cultivating a sense of gratitude and the good things in your life and recognize that every trial, every issue, every failure, every no can actually result in something great. And it's hard. And I'm not saying it's easy. And I'm not saying, you know, I don't get down and, you know, throw.

things once in a while and have a crappy day. And because, of course, I do. But trying to let that optimism shine through and practicing positivity really goes a long way. There's, you know, a technique that I do with my kids every Sunday. This is, I'm sure, a million people on your show have talked about this, but I can't express, you know, having a gratitude journal. my practice is doing it every Sunday night, 15, 20 minutes once a week. Because, you know, for me to do it every single day, you start getting into, you know, I'm happy I'm breathing. I'm happy I had a little detailed.

It's for me, you know, that may be someone else's process. But if I do it once a week, I reflect back on the week. There's going to be good stuff and horrible stuff. But if I focus on what are five things this week, that I'm happy, you know, that make me, you know, positive. And just that process of thinking and reflecting and writing it down, get stuck in your brain, and then it carries you into the week. And so I can't emphasize enough that cultivating a sense of gratitude is very powerful.

And I think having an optimistic idea and view of the world brings, you know, positivity begets positivity. And when you are a positive person, you attract positive things in the world. And that's just the way it is. You know, that's like 100%. That has no gray area. That is a truth. Right.

And that idea, but you have to really focus on it and practice it. And when you hit road bumps and when crappy things happen, you know, whether it's health, it's business, whatever it might be, think about this is going to teach me something. That's my positive thing about it. This is going to help me grow. There's no growth in comfort. If we're comfortable all the time, we're not growing and we're not learning and we're not progressing. And so every time something uncomfortable happens, think about that as I'm growing.

And I'm grateful for that opportunity to grow. And it sounds, you know, kumbaya. It sounds cheesy, but it's 100% true. And so it's just always thinking about, oh, this is a chance for me to grow as a person, and I welcome that chance. That's one way that I do it. I love it. I try to do it. I don't always get right, of course.

Hey. Like, whatever on these things, it sounds like, oh, man, this dude's got to figure it out. Eddie and Jason, like, they're on the path. But, you know, we have, like, those times that we feel lost and, you know. Of course. Yeah. No one's perfect. But you put the target into the universe, and that's a big step.

And, you know, gratitude, gratitude. Speaking of, I'm incredibly grateful for your time. I thought this was an amazing conversation. So I, I loved it. It was awesome. I appreciate it. And everyone, you got to check this book out, the soulful art of persuasion. It really is good.

And there's a lot of things that you can take away. I guess the last thing is what's coming down the, the road for Jason Harris, and where can people connect with you? Oh, yeah, you can connect with me on the soulful art.com. You can find out more about me there. If you want to know about my company, it's mechanism, M-E-K-A-N-I-S-M, mechanism with a K, because when we started it, the CH was taken, so we just changed it to a K.

I like that, a little flare to it, you know? Yeah, a little flare. And then, you know, at Jason underscore Harris on on Instagram and Twitter. Yeah, I love for people to reach out to me. I love connecting. So, yeah, absolutely. So that's, yeah, that's, that's, I'm trying to think of what's, if I have anything crazy coming up. You know, we have four offices in the U.S.

I'm really trying to figure out when people can actually collaborate again. Because I believe in in-person collaboration and joining forces with people. Yeah. Yeah, it makes such a difference. I'm just, I'm really looking forward to getting that energy back. We're close. We're close. Yeah. So, all right, brother. Well, hey, thanks again.

And everyone, make sure to check Jason out. Take care.