Henry Cyril Paget: the dancing marquess of Anglesey
00:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me.We are the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously.My name's Greg Jenner.I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster.And today we are donning our sable coats,grasping our bejeweled walking sticks,and boarding our train-shaped car,
00:27all the way back to the 19th century, to Wales,to learn all about Henry Cyril Padgett,the 5th, Marquess of Anglesea.And to help us unravel facts from fictionin a very glamorous way, we have two very fabulous guests.In History Corner, she's Emeritus Professor of Drama, a University of Manchester,where her research focuses on gender, sexuality and performance in the late 19th and early 20th century.She's acted as historical consultant on a variety of stage shows about Henry Padgett's life
00:54and is currently writing his biography, titled The Dancing Marquess.It is Professor Viv Gardner. Welcome Viv.Hello, Craig and Helen Morgan. I'm really pleased to be here.You're talking about my favourite man.And in Comedy CornerHe's a comedian, writerand a rising star on the UK comedy circuitHe's written for loads of TV and radio shows
01:12Including 8 out of 10 catsMock the Week, News JackMaybe you've seen one of his hilarious stand-up showsBy and Large or Turning ThirstyOr listen to one of his podcastsYou've got chatting with cherubsAnd My BadIt's Morgan Reese, welcome Morgan
01:26Hello, thank you so much to have me, everyoneDelighted to have you inThis is a first time on the podYeah, I know, I'm over the moonSo contractually, I have to ask, do you like history?Love a bit of history.I just wish I remembered it.It's just, I think everyone's brain is adhesive to a certain topic.
01:46You can just hear it once and you'll stick forever.Unfortunately, mine's jokes and I wish it was history.Well, jokes and mathematics, you were telling us before.You're a mathematician.Yes, before I did this, I was a mathematician.Right.And I spoke of music and drama and theatre.I had the reverse Billy Elliott experience
02:03when I went to, my parents were like,go and do music and drama, do music.I was like, no, I got to do maths, mum.There's no...I had a proper reverse one.That's great.And you grew up in South Wales.South Wales, just merfitted, yeah.
02:18Okay, and today we're talking about a North Wales icon.Am I allowed to storm out?Yeah.Is there some beef?No, there's no beef in thought.Do you know anything about Henry Cyril Padgett?Sometimes just known as Henry Padgett.Other than the top level stuff, being a flamboying Welsh person, that's all I know.
02:36Yes.A little peek behind the curtain when I got the email about doing this wonderful show, it was advised.You quite like when the comedian doesn't do any research.I was like, I can do that.Thank you for your effort.So what do you know?This is the so what do you know.This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener or viewer, hello.
03:02what you might know about today's subjectand maybe like Morganthere may be a bit of name recognition herebut not a lot. You might have seen the recent filmMad Fabulous starring Rupert Everettand It's Asin's Callum Scott Howells.You may have seen the exhibit of the film's costumeswhich are at the Asna Cinema.
03:19Maybe you saw Cyriel Davis's musicalinspired by Paget's life,how to win against historyand those of you familiar with North Walesmight have visited Henry Paget's actual home,the lovely Plasneueth,which is now a National Trustproperty. It's a lovely day out. And it's got an exhibition on at the moment, centred around the
03:37costumes and his clothes. Well, there we go. Brilliant. But how much did the film and play get rightabout this man? How did Henry Padgett become known as the Dancing Marquis? What a name. And how manypairs of gloves can one man own? Let's find out. Right. We'll start before Henry Cyril Padgett'sbirth. Morgan, we've said he's the fifth Marcus of Anglesey.What do you think his family did to earn their title?How do you think the first Marquis got the gig?Oh, okay.I'm going to say, and are going to sound immensely Welsh, is it coal?
04:16Is it something to do with one of the three things we did?I think we can say more military?Yes and no, because their main house, the family seat was in Bo D' D'Eazer,which is on Canuck Chase and most of their money,from the coal.That was from journey.I don't think theydid any digging or
04:38anything remotely like investing in it.They just took the money.But the first Marcus of Anglsy wasthey were already aristocratic.They'd already got titles,but he was the heroof Waterlooand he was granted the Marquis
04:54which is number two down in theranking of British hierarchy.So he was pushed up toMarquis when heled a charge at the Battle of Waterlooand he lost his legfamously he said something likeoh my goodness I've lost my leg
05:13and Wellington saidby God sir so you havebut that mayn't be an importantbut he's actuallyit's very interesting he became one of the firstowners of prosthetic legand you can see his prosthetic legsin Plasnowwith now and they are
05:30amazingpolished wooden legs with full articulation.They're called Anglesey legs, aren't they?They're called Anglesey legs.Are they really?Wow.I've heard of Welshman's thigh, but I've never heard of Anglesey legs.No.
05:45But I have to say that subsequent Marquises,the second, third and fourth,were something less heroic and something less heroic.They had to do what you have to do if you're a Marquist.You have to be the commander-in-chiefof the Staffordshire Light Infantry or something like that.But they weren't very military, and they had a certain reputation, particularly the fourth Marquis, for stealing other men's wives.So there's a lot of – there's actually a remarkable number of divorce cases.
06:20So after the First Marquis, the military genius becomes less and less evident.Henry Cyril's father was living the life of old Riley as a younger sonso he gets an income from the estate but he does no responsibilitieshe's living in Paris where what he seems to do is horse racingpossibly a bit of gambling and eating in restaurantshe has absolutely no connection with the French as far as we can seebecause he didn't actually speak any French and he didn't like talking to French peoplenor did he like going to the theatre or to
06:56art galleries or anything like that.His second wife was Blanche Boyd, who was the daughter of Australian, Scottish-Australian entrepreneurswho'd made their fortune in Australia, in the gold mines and various other enterprises.Come back to Europe, bringing your family with you so that they could get culture and stufflike that.And they settled in Paris on the Champs-Eil-Lise.And they married in 18.173, Henry Cyril was born in 1875, but in London. The marriage lasted a very short time after that. They
07:39appeared to have separated sometime shortly after the birth, and Blanche died when Henry Cyril was two,probably from suicide. And Henry Cyril's father inherited the title rather unexpectedly in 1880 and became thefourth marquis of Anglesey. So it's quite a lot for young Henry Cyril Paget to live up tobefore he's even born. His sort of ancestor is a kind of hero of battle. Yes. And then his dad andgranddad are not heroes. No, by the sounds of thing, it sounds like they're invading other people'smarriages. About the foreign countries. Yes. Yes. Charging headlong into someone else'sbed. Yeah. Okay, so it's quite an interesting start to life for our little Henry. Henry Cyril. Are wecalling Henry Cyril? It makes it easier because absolutely all of them were called Henry. Of course they
08:32know. Most of them were called Henry William. Right. So there's quite a lot of sadness andinstability here in our little boy's life already because dad's a player. Yes. Clearly datingvarious women and then unfortunately little Henry loses his mother. So what do you imagine thechildhood's like in that situation of a little Henry Cyril with his dad oh my god it wasoh to be honest the overtones and the end of tones are tragic isn't it there's no stabilitythere there's and I back then growing up with no matriarchal figure as well oh he did have amatriarchal figure in his life no he she's actually written out of almost all the historiesShe was Blanche's sister, her older sister, Edith,
09:18and she took care of the boy from the age of two when Blanche diedand took him into the household where she lived with his grandparents in Paris on the Chonseilise.So we're talking centre of Paris, centre of the social circle.So for at least that beginning he was raised in a house where he had a mum.maternal figure and she was she's with him throughout his life yeah she's there for him andshe's there at his death and he grows up speaking french english and russian oh wow i i i knowpeople must say this all the time but i can just get my head around english isn't it have youever heard when someone speaks english as a second language and you just go like you know way more
10:08about grammar you know way more about sentence i've just been copyingmy parents.So he speaks French, English and Russian,and when he gets to Anglesey,what do you think he learns next?Oh, please say Welsh.Yes, thank you.Oh, good on him.
10:28Yeah.So he's multilingual.He's learning Welsh.Yes, apparently he learned Welsh from a child.Apparently this was an idea that came from his father, though.Yes, and what level of Welsh he spoke, I don't know.Oh, fair.But he certainly had a reputation.
10:43as having enough Welsh?Is he having formal Welsh lessonsor is he down the pub learning it from, you know,you know, from miners and from...It could be.It's a long way to the nearest pub from the class knowing.It's a cellar full of wine, Mark, you say...I've got a tiny minute of a story,
11:00and I'll keep this as radio four appropriate as possible.I'm learning Hindi for my partner's Indian,and I've learned a bit of Hindi from his dad,but I thought it was his mom goes down every morningand does a prayerthat by to a shine she says Jesse Krishnaand all that sort of stuffand her father does another thing
11:20where he puts an offering in a jarand sayspresumably another little prayerI don't know anything about Hinduismso I guess that's what the women doand that's what the men doso I put an offering in the jarand I said what he said
11:35I didn't realize it was a swear jarIt was something he did when he got angrySo I inadvertently learnt a swear in IndyThat's the best way, isn't it?FantasticSo I don't know whether Henry did something similar down the pubHe might be picking up some choice language from the localsHe knows
11:57So he goes to private school in EnglandHe then goes to Eaton for a bitYes, I mean the private school appears to have beenvery short periodand Eaton was probably even shorter.It was a couple of terms.Wow.And he obviously had health problems
12:15right from the word go,but he couldn't hack it at Eaton,which was actually very sporty then.Yeah, it was run by a sporty headditch.You're trying to sort of create the future leaders of the empire,aren't you?It's all about muscular Christianity.So he managed a couple of terms.
12:31He does go back to Anglesey.This sort of Parisian theatre kidwhat does he do nextwhat's the next step on the ladderI'm just going to try and project mewhen I waswhen I was just finishing termI had to go back home while I
12:48was kicking and screaming if I washonest with you but if Iwant todid hedid he join a localAmdram? Oh lovelyhe did this sort of oppositealthough there is some makeup espose
13:02in that you put cameo on he joined the armydid he yesThat's that sort of army.Well, we say he joined the army.The Royal Welsh Fusiliers, which is a volunteer.And it's, I mean, it's actually a very big one, apparently.And it's pretty prestigious, and it obviously had a lot of volunteers from all classes.But the only evidence you have of any activity whilst Henry Cyril was in it is the theatricals that he did with various other people.
13:32And there are accounts of, you know, some of them were.for charity, but he did, for example, a sketch with a man called Rowecroft, and I think we'll cometo Rokroft later on, who was his tutor in which Rokroft played King Lear. This is obviously a,you know, a satire of some sort of, a comic sketch that you might appeal to you. So Rokroftplays King Lear and an 18-year-old, Henry Siddler is playing Cordelia. Oh, there we go.Wow. So he's in the army and he's doing it.drag straight away. Yeah, good on him.Go, girl. And there's quite
14:10a lot of examplesof these sort of sketches, which they'redoing in local halls and stufflike that. And that's the onlyevidence of any activity within theRoyal Welsh Fusiliars, except that he quitelike uniforms. And there's a picture of him in auniform, which may or may not
14:26be the fuseliers, but he's gotthese wonderful, pointy fingernails.Oh, really? I mean,would the military life appeal to youif you could design your own uniformand have the nails I don't know.I wish I could have the nails.There was a weapon in the way.
14:41I forgot my bayonet.But I tell you what, sometimes I do, like, do you ever go like,oh, God, choosing dinner, choosing lunch, choosing this, what's a way.God, I wish someone could choose that for me.Wait a minute, the army.I have to make no decisions.It's scrambled egg for breakfast.It's whatever they have for lunch.
15:03But would I appeal to...being in the army. I don't know.I mean, the theatrical division sounds good.You know, the Luffy's Brigade.Yeah, that was called.That's what I'm calling it. I don't know what they call it.And then in 1890, I suppose he does the thing that you have to do,as a young man in the aristocracy, he gets married.
15:21Oh, okay.Now, who's he marrying, Morgan?Oh, well, he's going to choose a proper local Welsh kid.Oh, okay.He's going to try and...No doubt. No?Well, you think he should just pop down to the local...social club and just picked out a lovely little glass.
15:38Yeah, he's going to...No, he's probably going to be in a range marriage of some sort, is it?Yes.Yes. And more than the range marriage, it's a cousin, right?It's a cousin, but that was very commonbecause you keep it all in the family that way.You know, any property, anything.They have the Chetwin's...
15:56Her name was Lillian Chetwin,and that family was short of moneyand didn't have the same range property.So you marry into an aristocracywhich has everything that you want.And it was a fabulous society wedding,massively reported in the Tatler and everywhere else.And he gave her vast quantities of jewels.
16:19I mean, they're sort of listed in the newspapers.I mean, excessive a number of jewels.And his going away outfit was in green, which is interesting.Lovely.Yeah.Do we know what fabric?Probably silk.Probably silk.
16:35I mean, most of his stuff was silk.Lovely.And probably designed and made in Paris.So you say cousin, so her mum,Lillian's mum, was Henry Cyril's dad's half-sister.Yeah.Oh, okay.I guess when you marry a cousin,
16:49it sort of saves you having to do the whole getting to know you thing,isn't it?Sure.Have you met?Oh, you have met?Oh, great.You may not have met, actually.I mean, the family tree is so spread and so complicated.
17:03that they may never have met.I got cousins in my family that marriedand there's little peep behind the curtainand they won't be listened to this.It's too academic.But when they got married,they couldn't have it in a church.Why couldn't they have it in a church?
17:21Because you can't marry cousins under church law?No, because there's an aisleand obviously you know both of them.Oh, I see.Which side of the aisle you're on?Both are.We can't stand in the middle.One of the other things is that Lillian was a Catholic.
17:39That's either of the family.So it's Catholics marrying Protestants.Yes, that's quite untraditional.That's untraditional.So this is 1898.So right at the end of the century.And you said about the jewels, just the same.I mean, the Litchfield Mercury newspaper had a souvenir edition.
17:52There are 53 lines of text describing the jewels.There's some serious bling that she's getting.Yeah.Rumour spreads that the...the wedding night involves these jewelsin a way that is not sordid, but not traditional.Not traditional.He's supposed to have covered her body with jewels
18:14and then just looked.I have to say this comes as a story from a family member,a descendant, who says in one part of his book,my grandmother did not talk at all about her marriage to Henry Cyril.And then you have this story,a very explicit story.story about a wedding night and you think, isn't there some contradiction there?Yes. So it, who knows whether, what truth there was? But they were also supposed, and this
18:41is probably much more like, they've honeymooned in Paris and in the window of this top end,high-end, um, jewelers, she was admiring, you know, one piece. So the story goes that hebought the lot and gave it to her. And those are the jewels that he is supposed to have laid out onher body. I mean, he's a generous lover.I know. I know.my partner can never, ever listen to this.I don't want them getting any ideas.I mean, sadly, or perhaps not sadly,
19:13I don't know how to feel about it.The marriage does not last.Perhaps the clue is in the wedding night,sort of, you know, maybe there isn't the...Yeah, I think they went down to the south of France,and his behaviour was,I think, an embarrassment,one of the memoirs that talks about it,
19:29it says.And she left,There was a ball they were at, and something went on.We don't know what.But she left and shortly after that, I think she returned to England.So, yes, give it six months.Right.And the marriage was a null.
19:48So it's not a divorce, it's an annulment.Yeah, she applied for an annulment in 1900.An annulment is, because all divorce proceedings are held in private.especially because it involves aristocracy.So you don't want any black sheep, dirty linen.However, the announcement that there is an annulmentmeans that everybody knows that the only grounds for annulment isif it hasn't been consummated.
20:19And she went to the doctor to prove that she was Virgo-intacta.He refused to go to the doctor to sort outwhether it was a dysfunction of his organs of regeneration.or some other...That's not even for the notes of the end.Incredible.The divorce papers are brilliant reading.Yeah.
20:39Divorce papers are wonderful reading.Disfunction of the organs of reproduction.I mean, I know we shouldn't,but how brilliant would it beif we still had the divorce section in the papers?I think it still would be.What happens when you go to the doctor to prove or not?Absolutely.
20:57Yes.The functioning of your organs of reproduction.I mean, in medieval times, they made that sort of public.Like, you had to demonstrate that everything was working.They had to demonstrate it.Yeah, medieval times, they'd test.But is it like a public gallery?Well, they'd bring in a, they'd bring in someone to check.
21:14Is it all working downstairs?Now, this is obviously the late 19th century.This is from 1900, isn't it?But it is, I mean, in the sense, there's something,it is, therefore becomes public knowledge stroke gossip.Yeah.Because an annulment means non-consumation.Yeah.
21:28You know.Which hints towards.Hins towards sexuality, you know, that is at this point is deeply scandalous and illegal, or at least bordering on.Yes.This is an era of, I mean, there's a scandal of Oscar Wilde.So do we find our Henry getting caught up in that scandal, in that danger?In the few months before Oscar Wilde sued the Marquis of Queensbury, when the Marquis of Queensbury left a note at Wilde's club,accusing him of being a sodomite, and Wilde sued him for libel.
22:02This had happened with the Marquis of Anglesey and Henry Cyril's tutor, a man called Roecroft,about three months before.So Roecroft sued the Marcus of Anglese for libel for having accused him of gross immorality.That's a variation on gross indecency, which is the legal term.and it goes as far as courtand then in the ante room to the courtan arrangement has come toand the Marquis of Anglese
22:34has to give inand pays Rowecroft offbut Rokroft disappears at this pointand so does the Marquisthe Marquess's sonso does Henry Cyrilhe goes off to Franceso obviously some sort of crisis
22:47happened around an accusationof homosexuality in 1895there's some sort of splitbetween the father and the sonat that pointthat was not reconciledbefore his death.Right.
23:01So the marriage doesn't surviveand in fairness,his dad's marriages haven't survivedso maybe he's just carrying the family tradition.Yeah, you know.He hadn't gotten in a good role model.Exactly, right?You're just, you know, you copy what you see.
23:12There's also,historically we tend to read this,we tend to read sexuality as gay,but there might be a love child.Yes.he was very fond of childrenhe adopted a childhe adopted a young
23:29toddlerbut there is a rumorthat only emerged in the lastfour or five yearsabout a possible love childwith one of theactress who had beenhis co-star
23:46yummy yum to hisPrince Picotiming is veryaccurate and there's alot of suggestion that he, this might very well be his love child and the descendants whoare now in Canada. So maybe a bi icon, a bi icon. Yeah, possibly. Is this going to bea reveal and it's me? Is this, am I a descendant? Is this what's going to happen? You're actuallythe sixth Marquis of emergency. Congratulations. Okay, I can't wait. As far as yours. It's all yours.
24:17Take it back off the national trust. I mean, I feel such an affinity to this character.If it turns out I'm a descendant, then I can't wait to wear those jewels and play my birthright.Absolutely.So the dad does die.The fourth Marquis died, which meant that our Henry Cyril becomes the fifth Marquis.He actually gets three more titles on top of that.So upon the death of his dad, he inherits four titles, one of whom is Marquis.That's number two in the ranking.
24:44What are the other three?You can have a little guess it.I mean, you won't get him, but have a go.Oh, what do I know about titles?Yeah, go on.If I say Duke is top of the treeDuke, so he's not a Dukebecause the highest is Marquis. So go lower
24:56the Marquis. What else do you know aboutthe aristocracy of Britain?Oh, zero.This is when a little bit of researchwould have done great. Does he becomean earl? He does.Very good. So he's the Earl of Uxbridge.He's got two more.
25:15I wasn't to say Yarl, but I think that's Vikings, isn't it?Yol is Anglo-Saxon. That's excellent. Very good.Yes, he's not a Yarl.No.Okay, third one.Do they become a general?Oh, very good. No, it's not.But I love the idea of him being instantly promoted.
25:30Instantly promoted.Yeah, Brigadier General.No, he's a baronet and a baron.Yep.Which makes him sound like a villain in a gothic novel.So he inherits all these titles simultaneously,which brings wealth and power and prestige and significant.He is a very significant man now in the British aristocracy.
25:47Yes, yes.and he does not engage in any way at all with the duties associatedwith being a member of the aristocracy.So he's no political interest, no, like his father.What would those duties be?Oh, attending the House of Lords.I mean, there's no record of either his father or himever, ever having gone to London attending the House of Lords voting,
26:14doing anything for the state,or you could become part of the Royal House.old, you know, but nothing, no, none of that.Oh, wow.What would you, if you inherited that level of status, would you, you know, take it, take thisseriously or?Oh, I would, but I'm such a rule follower.I think I would love to go.
26:32Okay, so you take it seriously.Are Henry, the Cyril, the Marquis, doesn't really take it seriously.What does he do with his extraordinary wealth?Okay.Well, the first thing he did was to sell.his father's Gascoen hunting hounds.Obviously hunting dogs were not his thing.He was more into chihuahuas and bozoys and pretty dogs.
27:00He set about, well, I mean he continued,but on a larger and larger scale,to indulge his passions for jewelry,for new technologies.He had every gramophone plus all the rec discs that you could have,pianolas, all of that sort of thing.And obviously theatricals, you know, he put money into his performances.Which is lovely, nice if you got it.
27:29So he sells his dad's dogs.Yeah.Which feels like, I don't know, it feels like some sort of message that the Cosmas is like,I don't need these.Yes, a bit of a slap in the face, isn't it?Like, I'm going to take, because they say, like, dogs are a man's best friend.And they're just going, I'm selling my dad's best friends.Yep.
27:48Absolutely. And I'm replacing them with a chihuahua.And he's also got a French bulldog, doesn't he?He has a French bulldog, which he brings over from America.But he hasn't bothered with the licence or anything like that, so he gets fined.But fine to him is obviously nothing.Yeah, he's fined, which at the time is a lot of money.And to him is like pennies, because he's a Marquis.Okay, so he's got on this money.
28:12He's going to spend it, as you said, on theatricals, on jewels, on clothes.It's in modern money, what are we talking?Millions? Millions. Millions. Tenes of millions. His income was 110,000 pounds a year.Wow. Okay. Which is like, I think it's between 12 and 15 million million.We typically multiply by 10 to 15, don't we, for a century ago. So, I mean, yeah, 15 million quid a year.So that's his income. That's his income.So their credit, though, at least they're spending the money. Yeah.You know, some people just sit on it and that money just gets out the system. But they're like, have it, have it, have it.
28:46I bet the people around him were loving it.I was going to ask, what do you think the local community makes of him?I bet they think he's an eccentric,but at least he's spending money.I think you're right.He does sort of patronise local businesses.Yes, he patronised local businesses,as well as, you know, all the great jewelers across Europe,
29:07maybe in Paris.So he engages with the local communityin a way that produces a lot of genuineaffection for him.Oh, good for him?Yeah.Okay, well that's nice.And he pops on, do you know what a tableau vivant is?
29:22Have you ever heard of a tableau vivant?Tablo divant, no, no at all.I mean, how would we describe it for the listeners?You create a very elaboratereproduction of, say, a famouspainting. Yes.And lights out,lights up, and there's this
29:40precise reproduction of the painting.And that then music is played underneath.it and the test is actually to be able to hold absolutely frozen and then the lights out and you do asequence of them and they did you know they did things you know famous paintings but they also didbirds custard powder which was a new thing and it's two figure you know the advertising campaign wastwo chefs one who was the classic who made it from custard from eggs and the other one was the newbiewho made it from birds' custard powder.And they did apparently,
30:21they did a table vivantof the bird's custard powder.So you and your mates, the lights come upand you all hold the pose.Sort of perfect reconstruction of a painting.Lights go down, lights come up,and you've got a whole new painting.You've done a whole new...
30:35He goes on tour with his money.He doesn't go back to Paris.No.He goes to the new party city of Dresden.Dresden, yeah.He didn't actually go on tour.Okay, it's not.No, he didn't go on to him.
30:47He just took himself there,had a long, spent a long time in Dresden.And he then paid the local theatre owner,new theatre just opened.He paid a man called Humboldt Maoto allow him to appear on the stageand perform to do one of the new sort of skirt dancesthat had grown through the 1890s,
31:14where he's wearing,white silk tunic, and he moves. You don't actually move your feet, but you move the upper part of your body.And projecting onto this were pictures of the German royal family.Onto his skirt?On to this skirt, which you wave around and, you know, these images, you fold out, fold out,and a new image comes on.And he also paid for his friendsto come to the theatre
31:48and to sit in the boxes and things like thatand present him with flowers.I mean, if you had that money,would you plant your friends in all your gigsand just have them throwing roses at you?Of course I would.You're kidding.I never have to win anyone over again.
32:05Yeah, exactly.Every room is just a warm, lovely, welcoming room.But the problem was that he never got asked back.I think the German audiences were, I think, in one sense, very bemused by what this was all about.Yes.And there's some really wonderful commentaries in the German newspapers about this.The English ones were quite, you know, said, oh, wasn't it wonderful?Santoy, which is what he called himself, was great.
32:30That's his stage name, Santoy.At this stage, it was.So he's got a stage name?He's not the markers, he's Santoy.Santoy.I mean, some of the clothes and out.outfits that he is wearing, Henry Cyril, he is wearing, he's got a pale pink suit, he's gotstripy underpants, he's got silk ping pong uniform. Yes, yes. I mean, when you see the
32:53photographs off him outside, he's wearing what we would see as dandy dress, beautiful, tailoredsuits. Apparently one of these was pink, but there's no real sense that he wore those inpublic, but he's always immaculately dressed. But he does have, when they have to selleverything that he owned. He does havethe lists are endless.He had, I think it's56 what we, they calledsmoking suits which were silk
33:20suits which you just worein your, you know, your domesticwhen you're at home, at leisure.And they are brilliant,they call the, they'rein every single colour in the world.Andthe purple underpants are on display
33:36in the National Museum of Scotland.They're striped.and they're made in Parisand they're rather wonderful.I mean, who wouldn't wantpurple underpants?Absolutely.I'm wearing purple underpants right now.
33:48It's completely purple.I am.I am.So, I mean, these are extraordinary looks.I mean, could you get away with thatwalking down Merthetitifal High Street?Oh, everything goes in Murthetton for High Street.I don't know what that's,
34:00it's a lot more inclusive than you thinkbecause if you start being exclusive,no one's allowed there.It was a wonderful place.I love the idea of, I've always liked the idea of smoking suitsbecause it just makes me think of if we had that today, is there vaping suits?Yes.And what would they be?
34:18Yeah, vaping pajamas or something.Yeah.Yeah. Amazing.Ever wondered what you would do if you found yourself lost in the wild?If disaster struck, would you make the right decisions to stay alive?Real survival stories from the Noiser podcast networkbrings you astonishing tales of ordinary people thrust into extraordinary situations.It's the biggest tiger shark I've ever seen in my life.
34:44So I just swam.I just swam and swam as fast as I could.I realize those two parachutes tied up together is what a dead man sees.I am not going to survive.Real survival stories.Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.And so Anglesey Castle becomes a kind of locust for the community to come and hang out.I mean, he sort of opens the castle up.
35:12He invited them not into the castle itself.But he had sports days, he had fancy dress parties where you would, you know.So they had competitions, cycling competitions where they have to light a cigarette,cycle all the way across the estate, and then have the cigarette lit at the end.That's the winner.I wish we did more things like that rather than fastest, quickest, 400 metres.Imagine that if it was an Olympic event.Oh my God, we're doing the 20-mile bridge.
35:45sprint.Famously, he had lots of cars.Of course he does. Cars are kind of brand new, so he's got plenty.What flavour does he perfume the exhaust pipe?Oh, tell you what, don't know anything about titles.Don't know much about sense either. I don't have a sense of smell.It's a bit of a, yeah, I got a bit of a loony tune.I got hit on the head as a kid and I lost it.
36:10Oh, no, no.So I'm going to have to go with, what?My partner love lavender.It is lavender.Oh, really?You see, I don't think it is lavender.I think that's just a story.Oh.
36:23I think, because lavender is too earthy and beautiful and nice, soft.Petulie.Because Petulie, he had apparently Petulie scented programs for his shows.Right, okay.And Petulie's got that sort of exotic.And we know he had bottles of the latest in male perfumes.And I think it's much more likely to be.But you can't put scent in an exhaust.
36:47I've checked with Hughley.I've checked with Hughley.And they sounded a little confused at my question.But they said, no, of course you can't.But of course, he probably sprayed the inside of his cars,particularly that Pullman Morse that he had,which is built like a railway carriage.Yeah.
37:06Hence my opening joke about him driving a kind of railway-shaped car, right?So the rumour is lavender.You think petulie, but it's fragrant driving.You know, it's delicious.It's a, you know.That's a challenge in the countrysideof the best of times.Well, I was going to say,
37:19if you drive through parts of Wales,sometimes the fragrance is slightly more animal.I was just been driving through Walesliterally this weekend.I always thought it when you're driving with another personin the countryside, there's always that awkward momentyou've got to go, it's the fields.It's not me.
37:35It's the cattle.It's the manure.He sets up his own theatreat the Anglesey Castle, as he's renamed it,and he steals a theatre company.He steals the theatre company.Yes.There's this sort of probably third rate.
37:49They were not making their money.Theatre company touring with a production called The Music Hall Girl.And the actresses in one place had had to pawn their jewels in order to pay for the cost of the theatre.They rock up to Llandidno and are playing there.And he does what many aristocrats do, which is invite them to perform in the gaiety theatre,which is his refurbished theatrewhich he has brought electricity inand all sorts of wonderful things
38:18and it's the most beautifulBijou little 150-seater theatrethere are images of it that are fabulousso this company come and do the musical girl thereand he decides that he will offerAlex Keith who is the managerand Julie Kent who is the staran inordinate amount of
38:41money in order to come and be histheatre company. Great, isn't it?It's a personal theatre company.A personal theatre company. What would youhave and perform for you?Ooh, I'd give them difficultstuff, I'd do like Breaking Bad.Oh, okay.
38:57Entire HBO shows, yeah.I think they'd love the challengeof that, and I'd love to golike, oh, youplayed a Mexican gangster last week, now you'reSkylar.And would you play Walter White? Would you beNo, I'm, I tell you what, as a before, I'm, I'm, it's going to sound a bit egotistical.
39:17I'm, I've worked really hard at being a good performer.I'm, I think I'm a great performer.I'm a blinking, amazing punter.I am such a good audience member.Love it.I can sit back and enjoy it all.A complete reverse of the Marquist, I'm afraid.I don't actually think he, I mean, Alex Keith, when he died, called him a perfectly good
39:41actor, which is sort of understatement.That's sort of damning with faint praise, isn't it?Damning with faint praise. Andthere's no record of himactually being in an audience.So he's stolen a theatre company, but hewants to be the star. He wants to be the star. Okay, all right.It reminds me that 90s anti-piracy advert.
39:59You wouldn't steal a handbag, he wouldn't steal a car,you wouldn't steal an itinerant theatre troupe.Yeah, completely.It's sort of great, isn't it?Because that advert never made sense, did it?You wouldn't steal the handbag, you would sue the car. You're just like,Yeah, if you wanted a handbag or a guy would do it.I think it's going to more piracy.
40:13And you knew how to do it, yeah.So he's got his theatre trumpet company there.He also does, he goes on tour a bit with him too, doesn't he plays in Lichfield.He plays in Lemberton Spy.He plays in Lundit Nau.He does, to a very limited extent.He's going, he's 150 seat of theatre.So he can go to Lunditno.
40:30And he plays in a hall there.He doesn't play in a theatre theatre.Litchfield, he plays, again, in a hall.And it's only right with the last.production that he did, which was of Oscar Wilde'san ideal husband, that it went on tourproperly. And that was playing proper theatres,i.e., you know, two and three thousand seat theatres,
40:54and I think he managed four places.Basically, you know, you move from 150-seater,local audience that loves you, and you go to Boscombe,3,000-seat theatre,and maybe your voice isn't up to it.Maybe the audience doesn't love you in exactly the same way.Okay, so he's playing 150-seater venues, which is cute.Cute, yeah.
41:19But maybe he's not quite cut up for it.You open Praselli Town Hall.Yes, okay.New Town Hall, he takes a little version of Aladdin there.And he has an iconic dance as well that he does called the butterfly dance.Would you like to demonstrate for us what you think that should look like?Okay, for the listeners, it would be atrocious?It's going to be an awkward
41:39I'm going to do it for half hour by the wayfor the camera roomSo the butterfly I'm assumingI'm trying to not to hit all the things on the sideUp and downI'm swinging I'm upI'm swinging on the wristFabric on the wrists I think is swirling up
41:54swirling down I think he's not doinganything with his faceIt's their version of Vogan I hearSo it's just big flailing armsHead straight onIt's not far offHe had ones that extendedso that you make your wings even greater.
42:10Oh, he's even bigger than that.The big thing is that you project colours on it.So you have limelight and two limelight men to project.And he also had, I don't know quite how it workedbecause the stage was very small.A glass floor.This is from Lowy Fuller, the great innovative dance,Lowy Fuller, glass floor,
42:31which you project light from underneath as well.So as you're moving around your armsand waving them around and the silk,it catches the light and the changing lights.And he also had a, we know, he did a dance,the electric dance where he had probably little light bulbs all over himand, you know, all sorts of dances to do with nature.Amazing.
42:54The Fish King dance, not quite sure what that one's about.Okay, so that's why he's called the Dancing Marquess.That's why he's called the Dancing Marquess.He's a Dancing Marquess.Every performance he would be.Clues in the name.Yeah, I just sound.because I'm writing a show at the moment
43:09and saw this autumnand it's kind of reallyadmirable is the wrong wayit's inspiring to know even just back thensomeone is trying to bring something differentto writeat the moment where we just do shows it'slights up, lights down this person is
43:24incorporating different lights how can I incorporate differentfeelings with these lights we don't even do that nowfor a lot of performancesthis brand new technology he's really innovatingand he's got his silky ping pong uniformHe's got his purple underpantsand he's got his butterfly costume.You know, he's a sort of one-man industry, isn't it?
43:40He's sort of keeping tailors in, you know, in all sorts of...What keeping tailors except he's not paying them?Ah, right.That's next to my script, actually, Viv.Sorry.We basically, he runs out of money.The man on 15 million quid a year runs out of money in 1904and we get the Anglesey great sales
43:56where he has to start selling some stuff to pay the bills.Just, you know, tell us...He, well, basically, he is insolvent.Because aristocrats don't go bankruptbecause that involves selling the entailed propertySo that's not classy.That's not classy and they have a way of protecting themselves.So everything that he owned
44:15and that included all the things in the houseincluding the cooking pots and stuff like thatand his whole wardrobe and his cars had to be soldand the sales lasted from July 1904through to December 1904.So the theatre is dismantled.And there's this wonderful scene where there's a marquee outsideand they are parceling through the windows of the house
44:46and taking them stuff to the market, all of his clothing.And there's descriptions of the audience.These were the most popular of the sales.And people came for the spectacle as much as they came to buy anything.I've got a list here of the things that are on sale.I don't know if any of these appeal to you, Morgan. Okay, so he's selling his parrot,Jacko, who is a multilingual parrot, speaks French, Welsh, English and Russian.Oh, that's amazing.
45:12And apparently swears in them.Yes. That's the other story.We had, I know it sounds like I'm trying to, we had a swear. We had a swear in parrot.Oh.Yeah, my, you can literally show you on my phone. My nann's called Nanny Parrot.And she used to, I remember she always used to go, oh, she's listening to, oh, why can the parrot swear?She goes to the radio. I was like, what are you listening to?Amazing. You've got to have a sweary parrot.
45:33So he's selling his sweary parrot.He's selling his silky ping pong uniform.He's selling his bedewed walking sticks,furniture, ice skates,mink coat with 20 heads,various pianos and pianolas,various little dogs in their beautiful jacketswith Henry's insignia sewn into the jackets,
45:50500 pairs of gloves,four cannons,obviously,1,000 photos of himself and his friends,and the auctioneer's assistant,Jerry, modelled all of the clothesso people could see what they look like.So what would you buy it,
46:03auction. Oh, I mean, the thousand photos of yourself, I mean, it was well ahead of his time. That'severyone nowadays, isn't it? That's our kind of camera reel, isn't it? A thousand photos of us in allour outfits. He pretty much just had his, he had his Instagram printed out, didn't he?He did. I would, I mean, personally, I would buy the silky ping pong uniform. I would buy thelittle dog outfits. I look after a little toy poodle and I think my partner,the wood melt into a puddle.Yeah.Viv, what would you buy?
46:37I would buy the cooking pots.Very practical.I'm sorry.I'm very practical.That's fine.That's fine.I'm not interested in the walking sticksand the waistcoats and things like that.
46:50And obviously...And the chocolate.There was a lot of chocolate.Oh, of course it was.For breakfast.Of course.Yeah.For breakfast chocolate.
46:57Of course, a parrot, you could teach you to podcast.I wouldn't need to do this gig.I just get the jacko the parrot in.Just get it to do my life.for me.He'd be all in Russian, but other than that.Yeah.Welcome to you're going to be.
47:08You know, it'd be great.So the insolvency sales, do they turn Henry's fortunes around?Does he clear his debts?No, no.So he's...No, because, I mean, a lot of things sell for underpriced, you know.The amount that he got for that Pullman car, the Morse,was derisery compared to how much it had cost.
47:29And then the man gave it back because it didn't do quite the mileage that he thought he was.Because there's lavender in the engine.Because there's lavender in the engine, yeah.So no.And they calculated that if the Marquist lived till 1911,he would, the debts would be paid off.But they weren't through the sales because of the income was,his annual income was going to pay off debts as well.
47:57But the sales didn't.And he doesn't live to 1911.The tragedy here is he dies in 1905.Yeah.Age 29.Oh.It's really young.It's such a young.
48:09It's extraordinarily young, but also it's just, it's so tragic, isn't it?Because this is clearly someone who's living his life to his fall.Oh yeah, completely.It doesn't sound like someone that was done.No.It's 29.I didn't even know who I was at 29.I know, exactly.
48:23He never had a chance to have his 30-year, 30s mid-life crisis.You imagine his 30th birthday, the bash.He'd had his life crisis when his income was reduced from 110,000.pounds a year to 3,000.Oh, that's it. Okay.And so he was reduced tobasically, I think he hadone personal
48:44servant and thenanny for his little girl thathe'd adopted. Andbasically that was it. And his privatesecretary, of course. So what happenedto the family then? Viva, what happens to the castle?What happens to all his stuff?He's dead. His stuff is gone.
49:01Right. Andthe title is inherited.by his cousin who is, I think, 19 at this point,and is at Sandhurst, training to be a soldier.Okay, so a proper, a last.A proper.Yeah, I know, but he only, I think he did a year more.I think probably, you know,
49:19and there's plenty of stories about the sixth markers.Okay.So, yes, but they, the house was dismantled anyway.There's some very, very poignant descriptions of the empty house.They may or may not have destroyed all of his papers,but I, myself, I think probably the papers had gone,but certainly the good story is that the 6th Marquis's mother walked inand destroyed everything that was left.
49:47So we have no personal papers.There's a journal turned up in 1906,which is of his last year and was reproduced in part in the newspapers,which is actually really poignant.But no, so there's...is a relic and he's the chapel um the theater which had been built into the chapel originallyright back in the 1890s um was returned to a chapel and an occasional school room as is appropriateum at least that's the story okay so i mean it's quite a life it's a sad end but what do you make of
50:26Henry Cyril Hatchet.Well, I'm glad he just made the most of what he had, to be honest.And again, like this extravagance, you know,it feels like it's a symptom of everything that this poor person was put through.Or at least they had fun doing it.And by the sounds of things they weren't,another bet not paying their tailors,it doesn't sound like they were a particularly nasty person
50:48or left much damage behind.They just lived their life authentically.They left a lot of damage behind.I think about it.They left a lot of damage behind.All but the very core servants lost their jobs, lost their homes.The people, particularly the locals,the local shopkeepers and things like that,
51:11who didn't have vast resources.To be owed a smallish sum of moneycould mean bankruptcy for them, an end of their business.So there's this sort of very ambivalent feeling around here.is that, yes, he was genuinely, there's a genuine affection there for him,but the debts that he had accrued,and he sent this extraordinary telegram when, during, before the sales,when the estate manager wrote to him and said,
51:41please could you send us a check for two, three thousand pounds,because the servants and the local shopkeepers have not been paid for three months,and he sent a telegram back saying,please do not bother me with such trifles.Oh, okay.The nuance window.It's time now for the nuance window.This is where Morgan and I sit silently backstage, bedazzling our costumes for two minutes,
52:10while Professor Viv takes at the stage to tell us something we need to know about Henry Padgett, the Fifth Marquis.So my stopwatch is ready.Okay.And take it away, Professor Gardner.Okay, right.So I'm interested in why people are interested, so interested in him today,and why he's in some sense a hero to them.And my answer to that is sort of we all need heroes,
52:32and maybe in the 21st century we need a queer heroin every single sense of the word,someone who is an outsiderand not the military hero who saved England at the Battle of Waterloo.And it helps if that hero is deadbecause we can then build our own fantasy around him.We can resurrect him in the image that we desire.And in the case of First Mark,
52:55Marquist. He was also persecuted because he was written out of history, and that makes it all the better.His family repudiated him, society repudiated him. So when he rises again from the ashes in the21st century, he becomes the sort of George Michael. People want him to be George Michael. They want him to beDavid Bowie, someone who was an outsider who lived his life as he wanted it and a performer. And for theLGBTQ community, he was gender fluid in an era that prosecuted and martyred Oscar Wilde,whose play, of course, the Marquist, did, and a period where Victorian binary notions,male and female, ruled. So he's radical in that sense. He stood in the hero categoryagainst his own class, but actually partly because they didn't want to have anything to do with him.
53:52and he brought joy and pleasure into the lives of ordinary people,the servants, the shopkeepers, the postmistresses.Also because he was Welsh, even if he wasn't Welsh.He was more Parisian than he was Welsh, especially North Wales.And it's North Wales that have really embraced him in, you know,for living and playing in North Wales,for making North Wales his utopia.And for learning Welsh, being there,
54:22at the Ishterfod, spending all his money there,even if he actually didn't pay there.And it's an era of growing Welsh nationalism.So he all does this in the most gloriously fabulous wayand all for free because he didn't charge people.And he also loved small dogs,and we know that anybody who loves small dogs is a good thing.Except, I argue, that the reality was much, much more complex than that
54:49and not perhaps quite as altruistic as the term hero suggests.But actually, I don't want to spoil anybody's fantasy.I want them to have their stories and their versions of his lifebecause we all create heroes for ourselvesand for our moment because we need them.Amazing, thank you so much.For me, what resonated with that amazing speech just thenis that queerness in history,
55:17people talk about not generally,gender non-binary stuff or gender fluidity.I think there's a bit of discussion where people talk about, oh, it's all new.It's like, it's not new.It's at all.It's throughout history.You can look at in different cultures.You can look at in different races.
55:33You can look at all over the world.It's there.I have this one properly affinity to me to go, oh, it's up the road.This person in North Wales was doing this 100 years ago.That's really affirming.So what do you know,Now. Well, it's time now for the, so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz forMorgan to see how much you've learned. Let's see how we get on. I've got 10 questions for you,
56:02Morgan. Okay. I've got all my notes here. I didn't know this, that there was going to be anote thing and a quiz because you've got told me not to look into the podcast.It's all right. And I'm so worried that I've not been really funny because I've been makingnotes. It's all right. You've been funny. And let's see if you're also been paying attention.We've got 10 questions. Here we go. Question one. What was,Henry's nickname.Oh, the dancing Mark West.Yes, that's it, very good.
56:28I thought we were saying Marcus for ages.The dancing Marcus.Question two.Henry spoke at least three languages besides English.Can you name two of them?Russian and French.Very good, and also better Welsh.Question three, do you remember the name of Henry's wife?
56:47Oh, Lillian.It was Lillian, well done.Yes, his cousin.Question four.What important remodeling did Henry make to Plasneueth,which he renamed the castle when he was in Marquis?What did he add?Oh, didn't he add a theatre?
57:00He did, he built a gaiety theatre, very good.What was Henry's most famous dance performance called?Oh, the butterfly.It was the butterfly dance.Question six.Which floral scent did Henry Padgett supposedly used to perfume his car?Rumour that was that it was lavender.It was rumour.
57:19I think petulis, so one of those.Question seven, what was one of the sources of the Paget family's wealth?Oh, it was cold.It was cold, good old Cole.Question eight, during the Great Anglesy sales, when he ran out of money,how were some of Henry's clothes displayed?Do you remember who modeled them?Oh, it was one of the servants, wasn't it, his personal service?
57:40It was the auctionist assistant called Jerry.I'll let you have that because I think that's true.Faithful Jerry. Faithful Jerry.Question nine, can you name two items that were sold off at the GreatWe had four cannons.We did.Have we had a thousand self-portraits, isn't it?We had parrots, we had ice skates, we had mink coats, pianos, walking sticks, and cannons, of course.
58:02Question 10, I think this is for, I'm going to give you 9.5 out of 10 if you get this,because you were pretty good with Jerry.How old was Henry when he died?Oh, he was 29.He was 29.Nine and a half out of 10.Well done, really good.Excellent.
58:15You were paying attention and you were funny, so, you know, win-win.Thank you so much.Well done, Viv as well.Thank you for sharing that with us.My pleasure. Fascinating life.He does feel joyous. He does feelbeloved, but I understand that he lefta lot of people in financial debt, and that's not fun.
58:32But, you know, we like our flamboyant heroes.And listener, for more flamboyant performers from history,check out our episodes on Josephine Baker,Sarah Bernhardt, or Sarah Bernard, in French.And for more fabulous LGBTQ biographies,we've got a lovely episode on Philippe Duke d'Orleans,which is a good one too.If you've enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe to You're Dead to Me
58:53on BBC Sounds to hear the show 28 days earlier than anywhere else.And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.We had the fantastic Professor Viv Gardner from the University of Manchester.Thank you, Viv.Well, thank you, Greg, for inviting me.It's a great pleasure to talk about it.It was very fun, thank you.
59:14And in Comedy Corner, we have the marvellous Morgan.Thank you, Morgan.Thank you so much for having me.It's been absolute delight, Lou.and more about this gentlemanthat getting to meet you two.And you lovely listener,join me next time
59:26as we stage our own tableau vivantof another long-lost historical topic.But for now,I'm off to commissiona spangly lilac football kit.It'll go perfectlywith my purple underpants.Bye!
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