You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - 12 Years, One Pardon, and a Fight That's Not Over - Lyn Ulbricht | Ep. 138

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

Lyn Ulbricht is Ross Ulbricht’s mother. Ross was the founder of Silk Road, who received a double life sentence plus 40 years without parole before being granted an unconditional pardon by President Trump after nearly 12 years of incarceration. Rather than stepping back after that hard-won victory, Lyn channeled her experience, platform, and network into founding MACS (Mothers Against Cruel Sentencing), a nonprofit dedicated to exposing the reality of excessive sentencing inside the U.S. justice system. At the Bitcoin Vegas Conference 2026, she joined me to share what it was like when Trump personally called to announce the pardon, how Ross is adjusting to life on the outside, why she sees Bitcoin colleagues still behind bars as prisoner of war  from a war declared over, and why the fight for justice is far from finished.→ Please like, comment, share & follow — to help me beat the suppressing algo's. Thank you!– SPONSORS –→ Access liquidity without selling your Bitcoin with Ledn — learn more at https://ledn.io/Efrat    → Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn→ Have you tried mining bitcoin? Stack sats directly to your wallet while saving on taxes with Abundant Mines: https://AbundantMines.com/Efrat - Claim your free month of hosting via this link– AFFILIATES –→ Check out BTC Prague: http://btcprg.me/EFRAT (code EFRAT = 10% off)→ Join me in these upcoming events & use code EFRAT for discounted tickets: https://www.efrat.blog/p/upcoming-events→ Get 10% off on Augmented NAC to detox Spike protein, with the code YCXKQDK2 via this link: https://store.augmentednac.com/?via=efrat (Note, this is not medical advice, please consult your MD)→ Join me at Europe’s largest bitcoin conference - BTC Prague, June 11-13, 2026. Code EFRAT for 10% off: http://btcprg.me/EFRAT→ Be good to your eyes & health, and get the Daylight tablet - a healthier, more human-friendly computer, zero blue light & flicker. Use code EFRAT for $25 off: https://bit.ly/Efrat_daylight → Get a second citizenship and a plan B to relocate to another country with Expat Money, leave your details for a follow up: https://expatmoney.com/efrat→ Watch “New Totalitarian Order” conference with Prof. Mattias Desmet & Efrat - code EFRAT for 10% off: https://efenigson.gumroad.com/l/desmet_efrat– LINKS –Lyn on X: https://x.com/lyn_ulbricht MACS (Mothers Against Cruel Sentencing): https://mothersagainstcruelsentencing.org/ Efrat’s X: https://twitter.com/efenigsonEfrat’s Channels: https://linktr.ee/efenigsonWatch on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoiceSupport Efrat’s work: ⁠https://bit.ly/zap_efrat– CHAPTERS – 00:00 - Coming Up…01:12 - Introduction to Lyn Ulbricht03:55 - Bitcoin POWs: The War on Crypto Is Not Over06:37 - The Day Trump Called: Ross's Pardon10:34 - Founding MACS: Mothers Against Cruel Sentencing10:59 - Ad Break: Ledn & Trezor12:34 - Ross After Prison: Freedom & Healing15:12 - Cruel & Unusual: Ross's Sentence & the 8th Amendment17:53 - What’s MACS (Mothers Against Cruel Sentencing)22:12 - Beyond Ross: Sentencing Injustice Across America27:43 - The Prison Industrial Complex: Who Profits from Incarceration30:48 - Ad Break: Abundant Mines32:09 - Prisoners Prefer Torture Over Time in Prison35:21 - Crypto Prisoners & Prison Reform36:35 -Hope Comes From Faith, Miracles & Not Giving Up39:30 - Where to Follow Lyn 

I could not live my life without to my dying breath trying to get him out of that situation. You don't realize what a gift your freedom is until you lose it. That's kind of like slavery's bad so everyone's free except you because you're still a slave so sorry bad timing. They're never going to end the drug war it's too lucrative. They get a lot of money. He said I'm going to give your son unconditional pardon and I'm like oh my god and then he goes tell him to stay clean. Which is so Trump to me. So what do you think about the justice system in the United States? War on crypto has been declared over by President Trump. But we have POWs from that war still in prison. There are colleagues, Bitcoin colleagues, sitting in cages right now. And we

can change this. Ross's freedom proves that. The odds of that were so minuscule. It's a miracle. Hello, welcome to another episode of You're the Voice. Efrat here from Vegas, 2026. We're on day three, the last day of the conference, and I have the honor of sitting here with Lynn Albrecht. Hey Lynn, how are you? Hi, I'm good. It's day three, so it's... Yeah, so the voice is a little bit crackling for me too. Thank you very much for agreeing to have this conversation. We had a, I think, a very important panel two days ago on the main stage here, in which you have voiced not only the injustice that was done for us but also the larger phenomena that exists today wrong prosecutions but also cruel injustice

and sentences that are being imposed on people that may have not committed the crimes that are so severe so do you want to first start with what were your takeaways from the panel we did and and then we'll keep on with the question sure I thought it went really well and I've gotten feedback all day yesterday how some people said it was the most impactful event they went to all day which was great to hear amazing and how you know yeah really I think got people's attention seeing lauren rodriguez her husband in prison up there it's very moving and our main goal or mine anyway is to shine a light on this because a lot of people here aren't even

aware of it correct yeah and um that there are colleagues bitcoin colleagues sitting in cages right now yeah for and they haven't hurt anybody and a lot of it's kind of what i understand from the lawyers is questionable uh tactics in terms of their charges so i was happy about it getting out there a little more and um just we kept on going uh i'm carrying around i guess it's over there my samurai so I can bring a samurai and and then there's ones for other all that bring the big one but anyway there's that but that's mothers against cruel sentencing that other thing anyway it's a big I should show the side the free samurai sorry I'll bring it maybe a trail here but yeah and

we have one for Roman Sterling off thank you yeah so yes this it's code is not a crime and my point is it's um the war on crypto has been declared over by uh president trump but we have pows from that war still in prison and so come on you know this isn't right and bitcoin is and crypto in general is a big block of votes and funds and um i feel like the community should step up like they did for ross and um we can do this and and it also is a it protects bitcoin in a sense absolutely this is not something a crime that you need to attack yeah you know so oftentimes i think bitcoiners think that in order to keep bitcoin decentralized and secure they have to look at the different layers of a protocol and

make sure that they are secure like the miners and the nodes and the code itself the maintainers that are handling the code and obviously the users and and the rules however there's a very large part of the protocol i would say which is the social legal public discourse around it that also needs to be taken care of if we are not the ones to secure that the narratives around bitcoin the ideas the society holds about bitcoin is it a criminal act to want to have financial privacy and financial autonomy i mean we are the ones also given the the responsibility to hold that torch and to make sure that that layer of the protocol is secure, right? I mean, I think it's come a long way, right?

Since Ross's trial, most of the jury had never heard of it. Right. And then it was this dark kind of thing that was mysterious and evil and criminal. Well, now it's all over the place, right? Now the governments use it. Yeah. Right? So they're the ones after it.

Correct. So I think this is another case. And there's like five, we had five or seven on a sheet. There's more. Of course. And there's Roman, there's Tornado Cash, there's two Romans. Two Romans, yes. Ian Freeman in New Hampshire and others, yeah.

All right, let's take it forward. So, Ross is home. What it was actually like when you heard about the news, when you understood that that's reality and it's coming home? It was very surreal, actually. But we were hoping almost 12 years. And it had always been fervent prayer and hoping and working and talking and doing everything to not let him be forgotten.

Yeah, because that's what happens in prison. people are you know we don't think about the prisoners they're they're all over there on there so it was a long time but we kind of had word that it was probably maybe going to come and you know with some kind of cleanse certainly not a party you didn't have never expected a part but something because he had a double life plus 40-year sentence without parole wow that's a death sentence that is a death sentence yeah and as ross said yeah it's a death sentence it just takes longer yeah and i couldn't i could not live my life without to the my dying breath trying to get him out of that situation it's just not right but the when i heard actually i the uh the president's

office called me but i was in another room i missed the call so i came back and i look at my phone I'm like what who called me the president will I talk to him yes I will talk to him why so I called back it was a text and saying call this number if you I'm like yeah I'm like so he gets on the phone and he said I'm going to it was he it was the president himself unmistakably Wow and he said I'm going to give your son an unconditional pardon and I'm like oh my god you know I was just blubbering essentially I was like oh my god thank you oh my god and then he read me the whole part no on the phone yeah and then when we were getting off he and I'm of course thanking him profusely

and I am so grateful to him but um and then he goes tell him to stay clean which is so trump to me but anyway and then I'm like yeah don't worry he will don't worry oh yeah so oh yeah I mean yeah no problem there so um yeah and then we we didn't really get word from Ross we were thinking we would hear a call or something but we just all jumped in the car and we were in Tucson where the prison was and went down there and how long did it take from the call until he was actually at well yeah i mean it was bad to drive down there right we get there and there's a couple of just a couple of guards at the gate it was already dark it was it was night yeah and all these media people have been wanting to be there and make a whole thing

nobody was there it was it was very laid back and um took our names who are you but they knew what was going on and um and ross's wife caroline they had her come and suddenly he's driving out with his little plant no way like that oh she was driving yeah and stopped and we're all like oh my god it was so because he was in his sweats yes out of those walls which were right there in the background that he'd been what is it was just it was it was really kind of a surreal amazing miracle moment yeah it was and we had taken a in the hopes of he would get out because trump had promised right so we were kind of betting on that and i did trust that he'd do it and um we were just got a big airbnb and had a week together as a family it was

amazing it was so wonderful it was amazing so miracles do come and he's ross you know times he's out he's yeah so and so what you know that's what inspired me to do Mothers Against Cruel Sentencing because I know what it's like for the families for the kids and for the people and so I'm just like well I have a lot of connections I've I've done a lot of speaking I have some skills to bring to the table I'm gonna help them you know I need to help them as i can you know ever find yourself needing cash but refusing to sell your bitcoin that's real life for many bitcoiners because most bitcoin sales aren't financial decisions they're liquidity decisions and that's exactly what leaden solves leaden is the global leader in bitcoin backed

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I am so tired. I need to rest a little bit after everything I've done. That's true, too. I know, but I'm sure you are balancing both acts, which is very noble. Oh, thank you. You don't have to do that. I kind of feel like I have to. And you're in the fight again, you know? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah. It is different. You had asked that.

Right. Before, during our panel. It is different. It's not the desperation and the emotional roller coaster. it's of course i'm not as attached to the outcome couldn't do that again i don't think i could i think it would kill me but uh i do care every once in a while i feel i can't do this i'm tired then i might i think of the people i know i met in there i know it and i'm like i've i've been giving i think god wants me to i do of course i really do i feel like yeah hey you got this i

I gave you this, pass it along. Yes, pass it along. It's incredible. How is Ross doing today? I'm sure many people want to know if he's okay. He is okay. He's great. He's like, I'm free, you know, it's fantastic.

And he's appreciating that a lot. He's also, I would call it maybe cocooning, you know, where, you know, he's not here. This is a lot, you know, and everyone would want to talk to him and he just isn't he's not ready for that but but yeah he's happy you know he's he's very happy to be free and it's such you don't realize what a gift your freedom is until you lose it does he try to put together like a good routine oh yeah he definitely it's he definitely has a routine

which always starts with meditation right he's still and that's what really helped him get through his ordeal so he became a very skilled meditator so he's very disciplined about that wow yeah and exercise and all of that and you know just like he has he definitely has a routine eats really clean because he had such horrible food of course all those years and um is his health better i remember he was sharing that he had some rough yeah patches near his back and with is back. I think it's back, as far as I know, it's back good. Good. Excellent. I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you.

Okay. Ross's case became a flashpoint for conversations about, I always say this word wrong, prosecutorial. Prosecutorial. It's a tough one. It's a tongue twister. Prosecutorial overreach, yes. And also mandatory minimums and the war on drugs. For someone just encountering his story, what do you most want them to understand about what was done to him wrongly? Well, it's a lot of my, the background of, or the foundation of Max is the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. And by any standard, a young first-time offender, no violent charges at all,

to be given have his whole life taken it's pretty cruel and it's it's actually i wish it were more unusual it's um used to be but uh since the drug war in the 1980s the the sentences have gotten longer and longer and um i don't think it's necessary there's a there's a congressional act called the sentencing reform act that says a sentence should be no longer than necessary that was way longer than necessary he never would have re-offended um after a week never mind his whole life it's very cool and it's not only cool to the person who gets the sentence but their families it's heartbreaking and children and i would go into the prison to visit him and i remember one little boy they were going you had to go up in an lr same prison that jeffrey epstein was

and El Chapo and kind of high-profile people because you go under a tunnel to get to the courthouse. It's a whole thing. So anyway, I remember him going with me up in the elevator. He goes, I love my dad T-shirt. He was so excited and happy and couldn't wait to see his father. It was all over him in the visiting room and in his lap. And then he had to be torn away, and he broke down in that elevator, and he was so hurt, and he was so, you know, bereft that he wasn't, had to leave his father again, you know.

And, I don't know, it's harming those kids. And statistically, they'll probably end up in jail, too. A lot of families fall apart, and a lot of it's just not necessary. so what does max do well the my main point and my main purpose is to use my talent as a big mouth basically we love that just call shine a light on this I don't think a lot of people realize well first of all I know they don't realize how horrible prison is because I didn't even fully realize it I did over time but when Ross gave his speech at Freedom Fest last year and he described some of

the things and I was like Ross I didn't even tell me that he said I didn't want to I didn't want to tell you I was there in the area I was there I spoke at conference and I saw his speech and I was shocked of some of those things he was crying I know I was crying he was crying it was just it's awful to hear I still he was telling about some of his friends or other prison people in India Yeah. And what they went through. Oh, my God. Permanent damage. Physical permanent damage. Permanent damage. You can find that speech on YouTube, I think.

It's online. It's online, right? Yeah, yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So, and even just the loss of your whole life, you know. Look, I have said to many people I was talking to about Rossism, and legislators that I would go talk to,

can we all say that we never made a mistake in our 20s and I've had them go oh no I wouldn't want to have my mistakes known you know these are congressmen and we kind of laughed but it's true and he Ross was 26 and full of idealism and had to you know and he's still an idealistic person sure I am too but he's an adult. He's 42. You know and and these life sentences don't give an option to grow out of it, to be reformed and all that. And he said at that speech that he thought that at least 50% as a conservative estimate of people that are in there shouldn't be in there. Right. And he's not the only one who's told me that.

of course leonard picard said the same so max stands for mothers against cruel sentencing so is it really predominantly for mothers to step up and well it you know honestly it's anybody yeah you know but i think because i'm a mother and i'm leading it and i i think it's i went round and round about it actually but i think it's a good brand you know mothers and in the prisons, Ross said, it was almost always, not always, but it was the mothers who would never desert the inmate. They would never, they would always stick by them. Other family members, I do know some very devoted fathers too, but of course, please help us whether you're a mother or not. Exactly. If you had a mother, you know, there you go. Well, everyone had a mother.

Exactly. Everyone should participate in this. Fantastic. Where should people come and get more information about Max? Yeah, at Cruel Sentencing is kind of where everything is. On X? Or on X, Facebook, mainly X as far as social media, I would say, but Facebook, Instagram, getting kind of slow start on social media. There's been a lot. Great. And you can just also Google. We have it. Yeah. Google Mothers against cruel sentencing, and you'll get the website. Yeah, well, that or at cruelsentencing.org, too. Either one will get you there. And, yeah, it's a nonprofit.

If you want to save some money on your taxes, you know, help us. You know, it just gets the word out, this lame thing. At this point, because of my own personal limitations of being overwhelmed, I'm kind of working with other organizations who can do things that a nonprofit can't do, like lobby for an individual or help with legal issues and all i just i can't do that i'm not that great in that stuff but and there are professionals who are really good at it and organizations that are set up already and have a whole team you know so fantastic joint forces absolutely very smart you said that the pardon was a victory but not the end what does the end

actually look like to you i did i think so no no i'm not denying it that sounds good um i think i think i took it from one of your um like right after the okay pardon um well maybe because i was thinking about that because i had been thinking about this for a few years a couple of years because i kept getting letters from people mostly mothers telling about their their kid who got some ridiculous even if it's not like some of these huge sentences even if it's this one boy i remember he was he got 16 years for a minor drug thing or whatever for his age 16 years was a life-changing sentence and overkill but i've also come across unbelievable things like the aclu talked about ronald washington i think his name is he stole

two jackets and it was his third shoplifting offense he was a habitual offender he got life what life in prison in louisiana for for stealing jackets jackets you know i mean this is america this isn't right and lynn correct me if i'm wrong now there are some states in the united states i i believe democratic that there are actually legislation in place to allow them to do shoplifting without touching them so it's like that's a good point i don't need it it's true what's going on like this guy that's true yeah a life sentence and here you're allowing people to do shoplifting with with nothing that's not louisiana and i'm not saying absolutely but i'm like yeah what's going on where is well there's there's common sense where is justice

where is like consistency and sanity there's close to this figure i've gotten different figures but uh of close to three thousand people serving long or life sentences for marijuana for cannabis oh my god three thousand that's really crazy while they are legalizing it everywhere not just in the united states all around the world it's being legalized and three you're in prison for life some of them why don't they just blanket release i keep hoping they will you know once it's the schedule changes or whatever it's horrible destroying people's lives over and they're young a lot of them are dumb you know whatever but young people do stuff you know it's it's a friend of ross in prison he knew in prison he was pardoned by a president or commuted sentences

commuted by president trump and he had life he was serving life in colorado where it was legal on a state level but he was in a prison in colorado so for life why it's just it's a federal case oh my god oh that's incredible it's not right so what do you think about the then the justice system in the united states i think it needs some reforming right and and uh Is it always like down at the list of things that are of importance to the administration? This administration actually has been good. Trump brought in the First Step Act, which helped with the Third Strike Act, which had come from the Clinton administration, where on your third strike, like the jacket guy,

I know people who are serving life on that. Peaceful people. It's not violent charges. friend of Ross in there serving life for having a user amount of meth in his pocket and it was his third strike he was an addict and I've talked to his sister I've met his daughter life sentence for that and it's too much you know it's too it is cruel yeah to the whole family to the community sometimes Absolutely.

But Trump mitigated it to 25 years as your third strike, which he had to fight for that. And there were others on board with that. And he had to fight for it. And actually, some people in Congress didn't want it to be retroactive. So if you already had a third strike, it didn't fix your thing. Only the new ones. Only the new ones. And I'm like, well, that's kind of like slavery is bad.

So everyone's free except you because you're still a slave. So, you know, sorry, bad timing. What? It's a big money making thing to the prisons, the prisons. It's they get what I've been told. Government subsidies, taxpayer, huge. The deal, it's the largest item on the DOJ list of expenses. right to to build and maintain and house in these giant huge prisons super expensive there's a lot of money in it and the citizens pay for it yeah billions of dollars or they print more

money well both we know how it works so it's a lot of incentive i had a someone who was working against all of this and he's in law enforcement but he had LEAP his organization Law Enforcement Against Prohibition and he said they're never going to end the drug war

it's too lucrative they get a lot of money it's an engine right? big and to come up against it is so daunting it's like wow and they have unlimited money

to go after you so I know what the samurai and these other guys are facing Lauren was saying she's terribly in debt right you know just for an appeal you know so if you have enough money you can raise enough money it helps it's a lot of money people don't think about that side of the fight i certainly never did right you know you're like okay if i have a good way to convince them if this is wrong and if i

have all the for right things to say maybe that's enough no it helps but yeah it's yeah it's like with i think like the sentencing which is what i'm focused on because it's so like the guy with the jackets everyone has your reaction right like what you know and um i think ross's outrageous sentence actually helped us and trump himself was saying he said to me and to others you that sentence i just that's horrible sentence you know um and i think it helped because what are you going to do with that awareness it needs to be corrected and um if it had been just 20 years which is very long um i don't think it would have had the shock appeal and that helped so outrageous you know right and that's where i always go to say you know maybe god's way is to

rattle us so badly so that we wake up of that slumber sleep that we're in yeah and i think this is what ross case may have done to a lot of people which is great so we just need to help lauren push through and the others there's always of course just i always want to throw that in you are like 100 right yeah she was on the panel but there was a there was a panel later with um my friend Sasha Hodder, who's a lawyer, matter-rating, and then Tor Eklund, and my other friend, who's the lawyer for Roman Stroganoff,

or Sterlingoff, not Beef Stroganoff, look at these names, but and, you know, it's horrible. Tor says he's innocent, but I feel like, even if he's not innocent, would he do

something so horrible that he needs to be in prison for 12 years? He's already served, what, five? prison's a horrible place it's it's not like you know people are like oh put them away it's like they don't understand what they're saying yeah it's very cruel it brings me back always to you know the spiritual war that i think we're in right now oh absolutely battling evil on so many different levels absolutely in so many different places and battlegrounds and prisons and the judicial system is wanting them. I want to introduce you to Abundant Mines because they

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decades you know a lot of them had a long time which would you choose and they all said give me the torture i want that physical torture and to get it over with i'll do it let me pay my thing and get it over with and that proves to me it's it's torture to them it's torture yes you know they yeah so okay bring it on bring it all back do it that's you know but don't keep people don't steal their lives their time and their family you know and core families yes i knew a woman i didn't know her well but we kind of make friends with the other prisoners and actually ended up running into her in new york and then chicago i'm like at prisons i'm like we have to stop beating like this kind of thing but um she was lovely and she lived in new york tough neighborhood

raising good kids that are getting good grades all that he said once their dad was put in prison everything starved off it was just so difficult and they were kind of running wild now and all this stuff so it's it's not only the you're not only punishing you know the perpetrator the criminal but his family and his children and uh we could do better than this absolutely you know especially you start with the non-violent there's tons of those the easier yeah it's not as risky there other people could perhaps be reformed but ross and leonard picard who also served like what was serving life and he is now free thank god both said you have to have some prisons there are people what prisons says it's not like i'm an abolitionist no prisons

because there are dangerous people in prisons that we need. And the point is to protect us. So they both agree. Now, we knew people in there that they may be eventually, but maybe never. You know, Ross said it's easily more than half, probably a lot more than half, could be safely released. And they're decent people that maybe made mistakes. But let's have them do restitution to their victims, which often there's no victims named.

You know, community service, wear an ankle bracelet, all this stuff. Yes. They don't need to be in a cage. Sure. At the taxpayer's expense, which is pretty expensive to support, you know, all of these. That apparatus. And their medical and their, you know, which is terrible, but, you know, and their food and everything. And the staffs and the guards.

it's all very expensive for sure okay so let's end with a call to action go to the mothers against cruel sentences website or social media channels crypto prisoners there's also a website for that right the cryptic prisoners there are there are websites for that yeah and one of the things i do want to do is start again working with but also supporting other groups that are i'm not focused on prisoner i can't i go focus on one thing right and it's these sentences they all want to get out but um there are groups that do wonderful things for you know people in there and i totally support that of course yes so but i don't have that capacity for sure yeah it makes sense as you said i just want to make sure that people are aware yes that's great so yeah crypto prisoners

FreeSamurai, BillingKiyomi.org, there's a last prisoner project who I've consulted with and want to help and work with. They've gotten people out, but they also work on things like, you know, quality of life and letter writing campaigns and that kind of thing. A lot of the criminal justice organizations do that. Wonderful. Any last words, anything you want to leave our audience with where you draw your hope from well for me really we've touched on it is that for me i really felt that i was relying a lot on my faith and took things one day at a time i had a very interesting experience at early days and i was kind of just woke up from sleep and I heard he will be free and and it wasn't in my ears and it

wasn't a thought it was I heard it and I'm like oh my god and that was years before Ross was pardoned but I always would remind myself no I believe God told me he won't be free yes and I was I would you know I felt I was divinely led things opened up and I'm oh I can talk to this person oh I can as I I think I mentioned barge in on President Trump while he was having dinner because there was a space and I just went you know scary things and it's like okay I'm going for it but you know just in many ways protected and led and so I don't know I I guess, you know, that's my personal thing,

but I do believe in prayer and people are praying all over the world. Yes. So I would, I know there are a lot of people who don't believe in that, but, and I'm not saying, I'm just saying for me personally, but also just don't give up. I mean, yes, like keep going.

You keep going and we can change this. Ross's freedom proves that. The odds of that were so minuscule. It's a miracle. You moved a mountain there. It did. Yes. It really did.

Yes. And, you know, don't give up, you know. And we can change things in this country. There's a lot of people who agree that this needs to be reformed. And, you know, I think that let's do it. You know, I'm nobody. Seriously. It's like, I'm like, I'm a mom.

And I'm going to make this happen somehow because I have to. And we can all be that individual who makes a difference. You're a very important, significant, lovely nobody. You're great. Thank you so much, Lynn, for everything you do. I'm sure I'm also speaking on behalf of my audience. You're incredible and I appreciate everything you do. Well, thank you for having the panel, being the best panel organizer ever.

Really were prepping us and everything. and um yeah and just you know shine yourself shining a light on these things absolutely i'll continue from my side thank you so much for being on this happy to meet her yes thanks for being with us please take a minute to give this episode a like a comment and subscribe or follow and please share it with your friends so they can also get value and choose to take some positive action in their lives till next time Thank you.