You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Digital Currency or Digital Control? - Nick Anthony | Ep. 103

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

My guest today is Nick Anthony, a policy analyst at the Cato Institute, a fellow at HRF, and one of the clearest voices dissecting CBDCs, financial privacy, and government overreach. He authored the book “digital currency or digital control?” and advocates for freedom and privacy. In this episode, we explore how governments use propaganda to sell CBDCs as “digital cash,” despite public resistance, and how pilots in China and The Bahamas reveal low adoption and rising coercion. Nick explains why control is a universal temptation across democracies and autocracies, and how the Bank Secrecy Act created 55 years of normalized financial monitoring in the United States. We discuss the distinction between stablecoins and CBDCs, the slow global rollout of digital currencies, and why Bitcoin’s censorship resistance remains essential, alongside other freedom tech tools. He also shares insights from his work maintaining HRF’s CBDC Tracker, his visit to the European Parliament, and his warning that even if CBDCs fail, today’s financial system already operates as a surveillance regime.► If you got value, please like, comment, share, follow and support my work. Thank you!-- SPONSORS --→ Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn→ Shield your bitcoin with time-delayed transactions over multisig with BitVault: https://bit.ly/bitvault_efrat → Have you tried mining bitcoin? Stack sats directly to your wallet while saving on taxes with Abundant Mines: https://AbundantMines.com/Efrat – AFFILIATES –→ Get 10% off on Augmented NAC, with the code YCXKQDK2 via this link: https://store.augmentednac.com/?via=efrat (Note, this is not medical advice and you should consult your MD)→ Watch “New Totalitarian Order” conference with Prof. Mattias Desmet & Efrat - code EFRAT for 10% off: https://efenigson.gumroad.com/l/desmet_efrat → Get a second citizenship and a plan B to relocate to another country with Expat Money, leave your details for a follow up: https://expatmoney.com/efrat → Join me in any of these upcoming events: https://www.efrat.blog/p/upcoming-events -- LINKS –Nick’s Twitter: https://x.com/EconWithNick Cato Institute Twitter: https://x.com/CatoInstitute HRF’s CBDC Tracker: https://cbdctracker.hrf.org/home Efrat's Twitter: https://twitter.com/efenigsonEfrat's Channels: https://linktr.ee/efenigsonWatch/listen on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoiceSupport Efrat's work: ⁠https://www.buymeacoffee.com/efenigson   ⁠Support Efrat with Bitcoin: https://geyser.fund/project/efenigson-- CHAPTERS –00:00 - Coming Up…01:39 - Meet Nick Anthony: Policy Analyst & CBDC Critic03:03 - What Problems CBDC Pretends to Solve?04:48 - CBDCs: Problems and Propaganda08:03 - Real-World Examples: China & The Bahamas13:59 - Ad Break: Trezor, BitVault & Abundant Mines16:39 - Stablecoins vs. CBDCs: A Critical Comparison21:56 - The Future of CBDCs, And Bitcoin's Role24:13 - Financial Privacy, Bitcoin and Cash31:54 - Message to CBDC Legislators33:08 - Nick’s Visit to the EU Parliament35:08 - How To Explain Why We Need An Exit36:53 - Wholesale vs. Retail CBDCs

Most people do not get that wake-up call until they find themselves on the wrong side of that equation. They find out the hard way. The idea of control or the temptation for control is something that exists across the political spectrum and across the world. Just because you might be in a democracy does not mean you're safe from the tools of control that this presents. There will be more countries added to the CBDC tracker. It's going to continue to light up. But more citizens are speaking out every year. More people are saying, this is a problem. I'm not okay with this. It's really important to have censorship-resistant technology that people can still turn to, even when the state says no, because it has your best interest in heart. It's almost unfathomable

how important it is for people to understand the importance of reclaiming and maintaining their privacy in today's age. CBDCs offer government officials an unprecedented level of surveillance and control. Do you want your political enemies to have that power? It's hard to focus on freedom when you're concerned about getting money for food. They're not the epitome of freedom money, neither CBDCs nor stable coins. But stable coins are much better than CBDCs. Good morning to all my beautiful audience on my Rumble channel. Thank you for joining us live from Lugano Plan B Forum.

This is a wonderful exhibition and conference. Thanks for having us here in Lugano Plan B. We really love being here. And I am so excited to be here today with a fellow of mine, Nick Anthony. We've been in touch for like a long time because we both cover in quite a weird way, obsessive way, I would say, the topic of CBDCs. And so we've been in touch, but this is the first time we're doing this in real life. So thanks for joining me, Nick.

Thank you for having me here. thank you for bringing me here. My pleasure. Just for my audience that may not know you, a quick intro. Nick is a policy analyst at Cato Institute, a fellow at Human Rights Foundation, HRF, many of you know this organization, and one of the clearest voices dissecting CBDC's financial privacy and government overreach. He authored the book Digital Currency or Digital control and advocates for freedom and privacy. You're doing great work. Whatever you do, I always follow your content. I'm subscribed to your sub stack. I really am a fan. Okay, so let's start. You've been one of the most articulate critics of CBDCs around the world. For those of you who may

not know, central banks, digital currencies. Let's start simple. What problems are central banks pretending to solve with CBCs? I love that I get asked that question. Well, almost that question all the time. And I always have to say, well, this is what they're claiming to. And I'm not surprised at all that you know much better. So you're absolutely right. They are very much pretending to solve every issue under the sun. Maybe most commonly are financial inclusion, faster payments strengthening the currency status on the world stage and really just expanding financial surveillance for quote-unquote the greater good there's a whole laundry list of other things that they add to this but those might be the most common ones that come up and

i think a lot of people will agree with one or maybe all of them and say like yeah yeah i want financial inclusion. I want more people in the financial system. I want more people to have that hand to get to a better life. But the big problem with CBDCs is exactly what you said, is that they're pretending it's going to solve these issues. Because once you pick away a little bit, you start to see, okay, financial inclusion, I want that. CBDCs, how do they work? You realize these are not going together these issues are not going to solve and so you have this problem across the board that they're really a solution in search of a problem and it's almost laughable that that's become the unofficial motto for cbdc's around the world and then what do they do to merge

to to bridge that gap they do propaganda oh so i should not be surprised you're hitting all the high notes with me. Yes, they do propaganda. In fact, there was a recent study that was looking into consumer sentiment. How do people react to CBDCs? And that's exactly what they showed. And I don't even know if they realized it because they said, okay, what do you think of the CBDC? What's your reaction to it? And it wasn't great. The people said they don't really like it. they're not huge on it they're not going to keep their money in this they're not really convinced and so then the researchers showed them a video they showed them a video of saying the cbdc is amazing you use it anywhere you want you make instant payments it's your digital cash it's

your digital cash and it's all bright colors and fun and then they asked them again what do you think and people start saying you know i kind of like this thing all those bright colors the flashy taglines the upbeat music i kind of like it and so they report back oh yeah people like the idea of having a cbdc and it's no that is not what you found here you found that propaganda works that's what the study proves perfectly said and recently there was a similar large survey

of I think 90,000 people in the EU zone for that and they actually said that they don't want CBDCs, I think that may be the same one, right? and they said if they're exposed to videos they become more accepting of the solution, it's like, duh

and then they started doing, I mean they started before even doing video campaigns and now look at the digital euro campaign it's like everywhere and they're launching it this month i mean they're starting the rollout phase that will take two years so regardless of what people want or don't want they're doing it yeah and it's it's something that really can go past you if you're not looking for it it can go over your head if you're not really paying attention because you start seeing ads for the digital euro and you think oh yeah okay it's just digital money it's just that digital cash that they've started calling it and what's really important though is

when you peer behind the curtain and you realize oh no they're doing this because they see people don't want it but instead of respecting what citizens want respecting what a democracy is supposed to function as they're saying okay but we know better we know what's best for this so let's let's just massage them into it maybe we won't force it today let's massage them into it and win them over let's hire a pr company let's change our language let's put everyone through the corporate training to make sure they don't say the bad words like surveillance and control and say the good words like cash. I want people to know that there is a tool

called the CBDC Tracker on the HRF website, which tracks CBDC status in every country around the world. And Nick is responsible for that amazing tool, which I use a lot, so thank you. And on that note, we've seen pilots in places like China, Nigeria, and many other countries. which real life examples do you find most fascinating and why i i think i might break it into two examples there there's two examples that i find really

fascinating but they are related and that's the example of china and the bahamas so china's what everybody thinks of first in the cbdc conversation or the authoritarian conversation and what i find fascinating is despite their efforts people really don't use the the digital yuan their cbdc all that much and to the point you could go there you could get it and you're going to struggle to find a shop that has a terminal or the qr code to use it in fact reports have even come out that government employees who have their salaries paid in the CBDC transfer it out and go back to their bank. And what relates to that is really on the opposite side of the world, and that's in the Bahamas. And this is not what people think of when they hear CBDCs or authoritarians or anything.

They think luxurious vacation destination. But the Bahamas has had one of the oldest CBDCs, And they're having that same problem. No one is really using it. You can't find the payment terminals. Merchants aren't accepting it. And they've put millions of dollars into this. And while you don't think of them often as authoritarians, their announcement in response to this

is that soon they're going to force the banks to use the CBDC in hopes that that generates use. and what I think is important to pull from this is not just that nobody really wants this whether you're in autocracies or democracies but also that the idea of control or the temptation for control is something that exists across the political spectrum and across the world just because you might be in a democracy does not mean you're safe from the tools of control that this presents

I think that term like democracy today is so yeah like abused it's not what people think it is it's an illusion of democracy that they're selling to the people because they don't really give them a choice they pretend just like in that survey that we mentioned so I think the West is facing a situation

today in which we are living in an illusion. We think we live in the West that was in the 80s or 90s, but it's a totally different world that we live in today. And the only difference between people who are listening to my podcast or people in the audience here and the rest of society is that they're willing to look the truth in the eyes and say, okay, this is not what we thought. this is not what we wanted this is more the 1984 kind of scenario that is playing out what do you think about that oh you're you're so right and it pains me when i think about this a lot of times because we have an abundance of information at our fingertips and yet people don't really access it yeah but that's also why the cbdc tracker is built the way that it is because i recognize people have

problems on their plate it's it's hard to focus on freedom when you're concerned about getting money for food and so I wanted to the extent that the cbdc tracker is a database I wanted it to feel almost like a game like something that's fun to go into so you can explore it you're invited into it it's not a homework assignment and I wanted to get as close to that as I could because it it really is hard to get people up to speed on just how far we've fallen in many ways to give you just one small example in the united states a few years ago we surveyed the public and asked them do you think the fourth amendment protects your privacy to the extent that it covers your bank account do you think that the government needs a warrant to get your financial statements

and 80% of people said, oh yeah, of course, I have a right to privacy. That is a protected right that's in the constitution. That's something that is part of the founding of this country. Yep. It hasn't been that way in decades. With the secrecy act? Yeah. The bank secrecy act is celebrating its 55th anniversary tomorrow. And it has not been that way since then. And yet most people no idea they just believe oh yeah i'm protected and that's what's so hard about this space working in financial policy and financial privacy and with central bank digital currencies is that most people do not get that wake-up call until they find themselves on the wrong side of that equation they find out the hard way yeah nobody needed a warrant to uh seize freeze or

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You can book a free strategy call, see how it works and mine some of your first Bitcoin for free with a special offer for my audience. Learn more on AbundantMines.com. Very good. A lot of my audience is very aware and critical about stable coins. And you've recently written a good blog post about, it's called Why Stablecoins Are Not CBDCs. And obviously I read that. And while I agree with your accurate technical definitions of the differences between the two, CBDCs and stablecoins, there are similarities in terms of the ability to surveil, freeze to a certain extent, confiscate and regulate centralized stablecoins.

Do you think the stable coins are CBDC in disguise is kind of a warning from dissidence or is it exaggerated? Is it a fair concern and why? So I didn't realize this was going to be my hottest take as of late. But you've been asked that a lot. Oh, yeah. Yes. But I want to be fair because in saying CB, I don't think CBDCs or I'm sorry, I don't think stable coins are CBDCs. I hate to throw that at people because I'm glad people are concerned and I don't want to stomp on that. I still want people concerned. So let me be abundantly clear

in that they're not the epitome of freedom money. Neither CBDCs nor stablecoins. But stablecoins are much better than CBDCs. To give you a U.S. perspective, last year, there were about 27.5 million transactions reported under the Bank Secrecy Act. There were about 200 billion digital transactions that took place, though.

So much of that, no, no, no, with just the entire digital realm. And so that's a big difference. With CBDCs, you're talking about going from 27 million reports to 200 billion reports effectively. Stablecoin use probably will increase that 27 million, but it's not taking us all the way home. There's still a buffer between you and the government. And I think it's really important to understand that distinction while still being concerned, because if we move in the direction of saying, oh yeah, the CBDCs are already here, yeah, it's all done. There's nothing to do. There's no point in being concerned about a CBDC. There's no point in thinking that this could actually get worse. And so that's the biggest thing that I want folks to take away from that is, yes, surveillance has been increased.

The U.S. just roped in permissioned stablecoin issuers into the Bank Secrecy Act regime, but it can get a lot worse. And we need to be vigilant about making sure we see where the posts are on this. So can I deduce from that that you think that the trajectory that the US administration is taking right now is on a large scale a positive one? I think on net, on this issue, yes. I have many concerns. Of course I meant on that issue. I have many concerns, like for example, I was about to say for people who might not

be familiar in this room, but frankly, most people in America are not familiar with this. The Trump administration started surveilling transactions as little as $200 along the southern border, and that's awful. They actually got sued, taken to court. There was a freeze on this, and I thought that was great until they reintroduced it and just said, okay, we're going to do it at $1,000. The case hasn't even been settled, and they're just trying to move the goalposts. And so that's very bad. But at the same time, President Trump issued an executive order to prohibit the creation of a central bank digital currency. The House, one half of Congress, passed legislation to prohibit the creation of a central bank digital currency. It still needs to

go through the Senate to become law, but those are good moves. Those are things that were really unthinkable in 2020. It's taken a lot of work to get to this place, but that is in a good direction. And we see other good signs around the world. The CBDC tracker is not just bad news. There's a couple glimmers of hope. You see things like, if I recall correctly, in Kenya, the central bank has looked into CBDCs and said, it's really not solving things for Kenyans. Similar statements have echoed across England, Australia, and elsewhere. So there's net positive on this issue in the United States and also positive movements abroad as well. It's just going to take a lot more work to get it across the board. And what do you think the fate of CBDCs around

the world is going to be in the next two to three years and then maybe 10 years from now? Do you think it is going to become a reality in many countries or you think Bitcoin has a spot to play here in this race? So two to three years, I think I am a little pessimistic. I think there will be more countries added to the CBDC tracker. It's going to continue to light up. But I think it's going to happen at a decreasing rate because more citizens are speaking out every year. More people are saying this is a problem i'm not okay with this and legislators are hearing that it's it's tricky when you have autocracies who don't really care and have their own their own minds with it but we are seeing good movement in that and i hope that translates to the 10-year window

being one where countries start getting taken off the list they start removing plans and saying this is not the option and bitcoin is part of that bitcoin is part of that when people are learning about bitcoin and finding out all of these properties that are the complete opposite of a central bank digital currency it's that much more likely that they're going to see that and say wait no i'm i'm staying here yeah i'm i'm staying here i'm not going there and that's that's really a key part of it because unfortunately while stable coins do help in that regard as well it's much easier for governments to prohibit stable coins because unfortunately that's one of the tools they have if they want to compete with the private sector they can also prohibit

it to get it out of the market and it's really important to have censorship resistant technology that people can still turn to, even when the state says no, because it has your best interest in heart. And so on that note, what do you think about learning about and maintaining the whole notion of privacy, privacy tools and privacy money and private money, et cetera? I think it's unbelievably important. It's almost unfathomable how important it is for people to understand the importance of reclaiming and maintaining their privacy in today's age. And it's important that people are building it as well. It's something that I think a lot of people don't think about because we learn when we're younger to look at our bank statements in terms of just the numbers.

make sure you're not spending more than you have or make sure that you're doing it responsibly that's about it people don't really look at what do the memos say about you does it say where you went this weekend did it say you went to a human rights conference or a bitcoin conference Does it say that you've been eating out or eating in what religion you belong to, what politics you donate to? All of these things. Who did you vote for? All of these things paint such a deep picture of revealed preferences, really at our core. And so it's so important that there's tools being built out there like Vexel, Cashew, using Signal for communications or Proton for email.

All of these things, it's amazing to see that it's becoming more and more common that people recognize the value. But much more is needed so that people know the importance because it's much harder to reclaim it once it's been lost. so on that note what role do you think bitcoin and cash still play um as exit routes for cbdc regimes oh cash also is uh very underappreciated we're very lucky to have it uh still in this day can you say why i think it's important for people to remind themselves of that i mean cash is one of the best privacy tools that we have on the table. It's easily accessible in most cases. It's offline and you can pretty much use it anywhere. And that's a very hard thing to achieve. People who have been in the Bitcoin space understand how hard it is to get a merchant on board and understand

that Bitcoin is a valuable tool that they can add to their suite. And cash is something that already went through those rigors. And yes, there are tools to surveil cash. A lot of money counters now will flash photos and collect the serial numbers, but it's nowhere like the digital realm. It's nowhere like if you tap your card or tap your phone. And so it's vitally important that it stays on the table. And unfortunately, that is something with CBDCs that a lot of central banks are saying they want to take cash off the table. We saw that played with in Nigeria when a cash shortage was created. But around the world, central banks have explicitly said we want to eliminate cash. Usually they say because we want to prevent the crime taking

place with it sometimes they also say because cash is bad for the environment and it's also bitcoin mining is bad for the yes yes well just recently um ecb ecb president christina lagarde said almost exactly that she said that the digital euro will not make the the mistake that bitcoin made it will be uh energy efficient and just completely missing why that energy is spent what the reason for that is but you know nick there's a trend i'm identifying when i follow my weird habit and yours my weird hobby i should say of following central bankers weird trend that i'm seeing that they are saying all of them we will not take cash away we will not abolish cash completely and obviously i think they're lying but i started hearing it so much

and i said well it can't be that they're lying again and again and again i think what they want to do is keep cash but just limit it enough so that they can control you know the the spending and the how much you pull out etc but maybe they will not take it out completely so you're right There are countries that say they want to take it out completely, but then at the same time, there's other countries that say, we will not take it away. Don't worry. So let me set aside. They really want to satisfy their people, right? Let me set aside my general skepticism of government promises and go with the more interesting question, though, of what you posed.

And I think you're right that it will limit over time because that's what we've seen already. there used to be much higher denominations that were available and widely used and they got taken off the table just one by one and it's very possible that that'll continue to happen at the same time they might try to sway people and say you get discounts if you use the cbdc instead we've already started to see that in some of the countries that have launched or you get some helicopter money, free money when you start up? Exactly. And so I think it is possible that they'll keep it on the table at least in the beginning. And frankly, it's the smart political strategy at the very least to do it that way, because you could have full on revolts if you

took it away in one fell swoop. And that is partly what we saw in Nigeria with the cash shortage, where lines outside the banks look like bread lines and those quickly turned into protests and then riots. People got hurt. And it's good PR, good politics to say we're not going to do this, at least at the beginning. But I will say one note of my skepticism is because the so-called benefits of CBDCs hinge on cash

and frankly, Bitcoin and any alternative being taken off the table. When central bankers talk about this, they look at the idea of negative interest rates. And one problem with negative interest rates is that people can't have an alternative for that to work. If that's actually going to be a tool in the economy where they charge you to try to spur you into spending money and heating the economy back up in a recession, you can't have something you flee to. You can't have an escape hatch or a bunker to save you and that means no bitcoin no cash no gold or silver i mean frankly it almost gets ridiculous you have to start wondering where does it end and that though gets back to at the very beginning when we're talking about when you pick away at these

claimed benefits they're really not benefits at least not for you or i absolutely if you had one minute with a policymaker drafting CBDC legislation, what's your message to him or her? I think my message would be CBDCs offer government officials

an unprecedented level of surveillance and control. Do you want your political enemies to have that power? I think I could talk their ear off for hours, as I've talked to your ear off before. But I think at the simplest, it's that. Because it's something that shifts quite quickly. And we've seen how power has been weaponized

against enemies. We've seen it, whether it's in the government itself or activists on the ground that have been targeted and you have to remember that you can always end up on the other side of that equation it's always just a moment away no matter the hardest we try to do everything by the book you never know what's on the other side of the next day very very astute observation you recently visited the european parliament i want to hear about that you talked about financial regulation and overreach in the US. What was your key message and how the hell did you get to the EU parliament? Well, I have to thank Jorge Gerasati from the Economic Inclusion Group for really making that happen. And my big message for them was in a similar vein. I was talking about

the traditional financial system and the rise of debanking or people getting kicked out of the financial system and trying to break down the policy side of it, how things like the Bank Secrecy Act and equivalents in other countries have created this web of pressure that really makes it much more likely that if you do something slightly out of the norm, not only are you going to get reported to the government for it, but also you might lose your account. And so while I was there, I was trying to explain both the risk that's alive today and why reforms are needed and also what a CBDC would do to make it worse. And frankly, that's kind of the spoiler of my book is that even if we stop CBDCs fully, the work isn't over. We do not live in a bastion

of financial freedom and financial privacy. There are real costs on the table today. It's something that luckily Bitcoiners really see, but the broader public doesn't see in the same way. And so if we're able to take CBDCs off the table, that's great. But the next step is then reforming the existing system. So it's no longer this tool of surveillance and control that has been built up over the past, really, 55 years. So what would be your suggestion for Bitcoiners who are watching us on how to explain that? i mean give us some tools like how to explain where we're heading to and how to pull out of their for not for them for their friends or families so first tool i'll give everyone is

the hrf cbdc tracker hrf.org cbdc tracker that shows you what's happening in your country your friend's country your parents country or really anywhere you're curious about so you can figure out. And then they can't say, you're a conspiracy theorist. It's all facts. Exactly. You took my next point. Sorry. It's like. It's easy. It's really easy to sound like this is a conspiracy. And so that's why part of the tracker is showing you direct links to statements from government officials, from central banks and the like. So you can see exactly how they're planning this. And then you can see the civil liberties and human rights abuses that take place in that specific jurisdiction. So it's not this out-of-your-head concern. That's really the first

thing. But the next piece of this is also to just normalize talking about it. Normalize talking about it in conversations that there is this thing out there called a CBDC, and that there is this suite of financial surveillance and control that already exists today because most people just have no idea that any of this is taking place okay and so my last question is before we have to wrap up or maybe two we'll see the distinction between wholesale cbdc and retail cbdc for our audience Yes. So wholesale CBDCs, or rather, let me go the other direction. Retail CBDCs are what we've mainly been talking about. And that's the idea of you're using a CBDC directly. You go to the shop, that is what you're spending. A wholesale CBDC is on the back end. So that's what the banks are

using to clear and settle their books at the end of the day, or it would be going on throughout the day but that's what they're using and you don't really see that side of it and because it's kind of pushed to the background there's less of a concern in terms of the like privacy and civil liberties but frankly i'm still worried about it because one of the things i see with that is that it's kind of like a beta group it's kind of like a test group where you have super users who are giving you feedback you would prove it over time and then you roll out the final version to the public and that's what we've seen in some of the countries around the world it as documented in the tracker you can see

that they say okay we start with wholesale we move to intermediated which is like a middle step and then we go to the retail CBDC and I guess the way to to think of it is it makes it that much easier for them to roll out the final product yeah i've had a an interesting chat with a tech developer a bitcoiner actually that works with banks and financial institutions and he reckons that wholesale cbdc is there just to enable retail in the end of the day he says it's not needed like what they have today digitally is good enough Do you agree with that? Yes, I absolutely agree.

And it actually just made me think of, as critical of central banks as I am, I'll give some credit where it's due. To the FIA. Federal Reserve Governor Jerome Powell was recently asked about wholesale, and he actually made a very similar statement. He said on wholesale, well, it kind of looks like what they already do, so I'm not sure why we would need that. Right. And I will say that was a welcome statement from him. It very much looks like what they already do. And there's improvements to be made on the tech,

but not to the degree that justifies reinventing the entire system. Yep. FedNow is a good innovation in that direction, right? Yes. FedNow, I have so many complaints about FedNow. We don't have enough time to get into it, but I will say... I think we'll do a separate episode just about FedNow. I'll just say one small line about it is there's no reason to introduce a wholesale CBDC in the

United States when they just introduced a whole separate entity to do wholesale payments. It's almost ludicrous. And many countries are in that exact same position. They sped up the payments already. So that's why when central bankers say we need a CBDC to speed up payments. yeah no no we've already done that you've done it on your side and the private sector has done it on our side please follow nick anthony on x and on his wonderful sub stack and he's creating the best content hrf tracker cbdc hrf sorry cbdc tracker of the hrf website nick i love your work thank you so much for being with me thank you so much this was so much fun Thank you.

Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for being with us. Please take a minute to give this episode a like, a comment and subscribe or follow. And please share it with your friends so they can also get value and choose to take some positive action in their lives. Till next time. Thank you.