You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 22: Christian Keroles (CK) - Bitcoin is Changing the Game

Starting point is 00:00:00 I am so happy to be sitting here with Christian Corrales. Do I say it right? Yeah, you nailed it. Corrales, okay. Perfect. Christian is also known as CK, by the way. Yes. And on Twitter, you are CK...

Starting point is 00:00:25 CK underscore snarks. Snarks. Yeah, because he's snarky. Snarks. go follow him there he's a cheeky one um director of financial freedom that's the title director of financial freedom at hrf human rights foundation yep right that's correct so let's start christian by telling us a little bit about your background and how you got to hrf and i know you were with btc before yep bc inc so tell us more yeah so uh you know i was a average millennial trying to work

Starting point is 00:01:01 in software after college and i was uh living in the bay area working and i worked at several venture-backed startups and in 2017 i discovered bitcoin uh a friend of mine she had been like hey you need to actually check out bitcoin and pay attention to it so i had listened to at the time was the biggest bitcoin podcast it's called unchanged it was a crypto podcast uh and i listened to every single episode on a long drive to a wedding all the way there and all the way back i listened to every single episode on 2x speed and then got home bought bitcoin immediately uh and how easy was it back then so 2017 it was still pretty easy you just download coinbase Um, and now there's so many, so many options, um, beyond Coinbase, but yeah, I downloaded

Starting point is 00:01:51 Coinbase, bought Bitcoin, bought Ethereum, bought Litecoin, bought all the things that were on like that, that they offered. Uh, from there, I just, I was completely obsessed, uh, and I had to quit my job. So I actually quit my job two weeks before Christmas that year, which if you look at the Bitcoin chart was the top of the market. So all of my coworkers at my previous job were probably just clowning me and making fun of me because, like, what an idiot. He quit his job at 20K Bitcoin, and now it's cut in half in a month, effectively. But I had a lot of conviction very early on, and I was lucky.

Starting point is 00:02:31 In January of 2018, I went to another crypto conference, a crypto conference called North American Bitcoin Conference. and I met the CRO of BTC Inc. at the time. Shook his hand, said San Francisco Bitcoin sales. He gave me his card. He said, call me. And a month later, I had a job and I was there for five and a half years. I started as just a salesperson

Starting point is 00:02:55 doing event and media sales and then got into podcasting, took over the multimedia division, then the media division. And then by the end of my reign there, I was managing pretty much all operations. Did you have your own podcast there? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:13 I podcasted a lot under the Bitcoin Magazine podcast. Long ago, I had a podcast that would argue Bitcoin maximum versus Ethereum called POV Crypto. But right now, I'm not doing any podcasting other than when I'm guests on shows like this. Yeah, cool. So first of all, thank you for having this conversation with me. For those who don't know, because you didn't watch the panel that I participated in, CK was the moderator of the panel. That's how we got to know each other.

Starting point is 00:03:43 Yes, and he did an amazing job in moderating three older people that all come with very extensive ideas and a lot of knowledge, and you did a really good job in navigating through this. Well done. And the panel, I think, was great. I mean, what did you think about what we talked about? I mean, one such an important topic, and I got so many compliments about that panel. Did you?

Starting point is 00:04:09 yeah people had you know said that it was their favorite panel someone said that they sat in on this panel wasn't sure what this conference is about and then they got it within like five minutes they just said like oh yeah i i'm aligned with we brought them in very quickly you know like we're not about the cbdc's we're focused on bitcoin so i think it was really smart for the organizers to put that in the beginning at the beginning because i think it's a statement it okay and so give me your take i know we talked a lot about cbdc but your take your view on where we're they're trying to take us in the fiat world towards a cbdc future yeah and how you see that unraveling and and okay you talk i want to say collapsing but yeah one i think it's disgusting

Starting point is 00:04:58 to hear about how these central bankers are like so giddy to control every transaction and to control everything that you do like they're so excited to do that like it's disgusting seeing them behave this way like they're clearly not thinking about the best interests and they don't have respect for freedom and they're showing that and then two it's going to be laughable to see them try to implement this idiotic tech because one they're governments and central bankers not technologists and we've seen governments try to unroll uh top-down uh government technical projects many times before and it's shoddy yeah you know like they don't do a good job um and really what we're seeing right now is bitcoin is so powerful and has made such a huge

Starting point is 00:05:52 impact already that the cbdc conversation has to happen because these bankers they know that they need to innovate or try to innovate but the reality is that we have an open organic system that is bitcoin that is emerging in the wild like you are using bitcoin today right so like the I'm an oldie, 43-year-old. Yes, I am techie, but I'm not your typical adopter. Yeah, and I didn't even want to point you out as a specific type of person, but people are using Bitcoin. Bitcoin's adoption, maybe it's not the whole world right now, but it's not zero. Every other central bank digital currency is on zero still.

Starting point is 00:06:41 It's on zero. So Bitcoin's head start is much further along. And then here's the interesting thing about being in the Bitcoin space for a long time. You start to learn that not even the hardcore enthusiasts that have been in this space the entire time can predict what's going to happen in six months within Bitcoin. That's how dynamic it is, right? That is how permissionless and open it is for people to add value to the system. That is not happening in central bank digital currencies. and then something that's really interesting too is bitcoin is neutral which means that

Starting point is 00:07:13 you can adopt bitcoin without helping your enemy if you will right it's neutral whereas like why would the u.s want to adopt china's cbdc like why would europe want to adopt the dollar cbdc you know these nation states they're incentivized not to let anyone else have monetary domain over them they weaponize money and they're weaponizing money but they're also they they they're competing against each other right so willem said that they're in sync i think that they're competing against each other and even at the best these cbdcs they'll be dated within their physical jurisdiction whereas bitcoin doesn't have that issue bitcoin can be in everywhere in every place and you know people are more likely to adopt bitcoin because it doesn't represent potentially

Starting point is 00:08:01 their adversary it doesn't represent any political view it doesn't represent any ethnicity any kind of group it's like fully open to everyone to participate and to freely exchange and transfer your wealth to to whomever you want and in that sense it enables freedom it enables freedom but what i guess my point is that it's actually a better more competitive product right so i wrote an article for bitcoin magazine where i just broke down three reasons why cpcs don't yes compete with bitcoin number one i love that article huh yeah it was published before the panel yeah uh i'm gonna put a link to it in the notes yeah and i look i'm not trying to be emotional i'm not trying to be like we need to do this

Starting point is 00:08:51 because we're doomed otherwise i'm just trying to say flat out if you look at how technology moves especially network-based technology yeah free open source uh is is what actually works is what actually is competitive closed top down is uncompetitive right and one of the best ways to look at this is look at how the internet has developed when the internet was brand new it was you know effectively universities connecting and they had an open standard and then companies started to try to create internal intranets right that's kind of like what these these countries are doing now now we have countries that are trying to create you know monetary intranets like no one uses intranets today right like after the fact you

Starting point is 00:09:41 know we saw china kind of like create like their internet firewall you know we're seeing russia doing that to some degree banning vpns ultimately those kind of walled gardens they still have leaks and what is actually powering everything is this kind of open standard that is what facebook is on that's what messenger is on that's what bitcoin's on it's all on this open internet standard so i'm predicting that that will also be the case with the internet of money i don't think it's going to be an internet of money i think it's going to be the internet of money and that's bitcoin i'm with you okay so um are you also under the opinion that uh cbdc when they launch it in various countries it will not sustain it will collapse like it there will be no adoption i don't

Starting point is 00:10:30 want to like say that on a country by country basis that there'll be absolutely no implementation that works but i didn't say it doesn't work i said that people will not adopt it like it will not scale to the the dimensions it needs to scale in order to be money right i need money needs vast adoption people in a in a geographically constrained area can be forced to do something by their governments i don't consider that to really be real adoption i've said multiple times uh on a podcast i did with bitcoin magazine called fed watch that i don't think that largely cbdcs will ever ship right so most of these cbdcs are in beta products and projects right now and they're testing them on small populations uh and you know the the big thing that i'm thinking in my head is

Starting point is 00:11:19 okay where will usd stable coins and where will bitcoin be when these things are finally ready for production right because bitcoin's moving fast oh yeah stable coins are moving fast like There's countries that are already complete, like Lebanon and Turkey, they're completely on Tether already, right? So, like, Tether has multiple countries. Bitcoin has multiple countries that are adopting it, using it, has multiple companies, right? And all of the CBDC projects, they're still on Xero. And when they're ready, will they be needed or will have the world already moved on and adopted something that's in production, which is Bitcoin and crypto? By the way, which are the countries that today adopt Bitcoin the most?

Starting point is 00:12:06 Turkey is there, some Central America, El Salvador. Yeah, El Salvador from a legal basis. I know also Panama is, they as a country have no legal, no legal tender. So there's a very open door for new monies, but obviously contracts are usually settled in dollars there. um kenya and nigeria are both places with a lot of adoption um but it's really interesting you know the dollar is still the dominant money and we're seeing people can mentally relate to the dollar a lot better than bitcoin so you're seeing in places that have you know completely collapsed like in recent years like lebanon you know they're using tether which is a you know effectively uh

Starting point is 00:12:52 you know, a dollar IOU, you know, that's issued on different crypto platforms. And they're very comfortable with that. So I think that's like a stepping stone to Bitcoin. I think the dollar comes through and wrecks a lot of fiat currencies. And then as the dollar like kind of falls over on its own weight, here's Bitcoin. How do you see the near future? We don't know, but I think it's going to be near with some significant monetary changes in the system, fiat destabilizing in more countries, inflation rates going up and

Starting point is 00:13:29 Bitcoin adoption hopefully going up in those countries as well. How do you see humans taking on the Bitcoin story? What do you think needs to happen for them to buy into it, listen to it, get convinced? And I'm asking you, especially because of your younger age and your population which is the most important in my eyes to drive change oftentimes change comes from the younger populations not from the boomers or the older generations that are less tech savvy and also more tired more beaten along the way so yeah well uh youthful people are often uh youthfully naive right and that naivety allows them to try things that you know maybe a wiser person would not or a more experienced person would not um you know i i think that across the planet people are

Starting point is 00:14:29 waking up to the fact that the money's broken and they broke the money um and that is affecting people's lives very negatively you see these videos from canada and australia these places where the supply chains are broken their money's broken um they don't necessarily produce that much uh value for the planet and not to like just you know take them take away from them but just from a gdp and a raw output you know these are service economies and like they're having the quote unquote cost of living crisis right where you can't make enough money to just afford to have a house above your head and have the minimum viable food that they're used to and think that they need to sustain their lives.

Starting point is 00:15:18 So I guess what I'm trying to say is that what is happening between the Bitcoin ecosystem and the legacy fiat system is there are two economies that are operating simultaneously, but separately. we're seeing like, obviously, the Bitcoin system is way too small to take on how big the existing traditional system is. But as it grows, its capacity to take on more of the fiat system increases, as well as people's awareness of it. But simultaneously, as the fiat system is deteriorating more and more people become aware of that gap between bitcoin having growth and fiat going down going down so it's just going to become more obvious in 2015 2013 when the most cutting

Starting point is 00:16:13 edge people started to become aware of bitcoin it was so much less obvious how broken and how hopeless the system was and how much more obvious is it now in 2023 so i just think that trend is going to continue bitcoin is going to get bigger more trustworthy and simultaneously people are going to feel more and more pain from just a deterioration of what they have been accustomed to in terms of quality of life do you know if anyone in the bitcoin community is working on projects to help and onboard boomers and elderly population that naturally either don't get it or get it harder. Like they, they, they really struggle.

Starting point is 00:17:04 Yeah, there, I mean, there are people, what would be your tips for, for that kind of, I mean, partially like change comes with people passing away and moving on and newer generations kind of taking power. So that's a very real dynamic that's going to be at play. I also think that, okay, let's call them boomers, the current, you know, kind of generation in power. They're not that tech illiterate, you know, and we see tech getting easier. Yeah, they do use Facebook and they use emails and they get that already. They use financial apps.

Starting point is 00:17:46 But Bitcoin is going to get easier too. And, you know, I saw, you know, I was here long enough to see mobile phones turn into cell phones, and my grandma could not touch any of that. But 10 years into the revolution, here's an iPad, and now she can compute. Now she's connected online. Like, there's a format that works for her. So I truly do think that, like, UX improvements in Bitcoin are only at its very, very nascent state. I agree with you. I've been into Lightning a little bit lately, and for me as a very techie person, it was still quite hard to set things up because things are very new.

Starting point is 00:18:29 They're nascent. This is an unpopular opinion, though. Lightning is an enterprise solution, which is a big reason why it's difficult for people to actually manage it. You're right. I'm talking about the clients. Even having a Lightning client, people go with a centralized one often just because there's an actual company managing an enterprise backend for Lightning. It's getting better, though. It is getting better. I do want to ask you for some key applications that you think people should know when they start off with Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:18:59 Like, for example, me as a podcaster or content creator, knowing, discovering through my friend that I can have my podcast on a lightning wallet was a discovery that I can gain satoshis for my work. That's amazing. So just tips like that, different apps that you think are important to know. Yeah, well, I was just telling your producer here, he's a musician, and he dropped some stuff on Spotify and Apple Music. And he's obviously a Bitcoiner too. So he was telling me how he uses like podcasting 2.0 and Fountain, and he has a podcast. And I was telling him, hey, that same tech, there's a company called Wavelake, that also does the same thing for music. And you can publish your music, your supporters can support you directly with Bitcoin. And then the cool thing is, let's say your podcast, a podcast 2.0 podcast, puts his music as your intro music and people send you money. He gets part of the split. Really? Automatically.

Starting point is 00:20:03 Love it. Because the music was published in a way that is already tied into his Bitcoin address in the Lightning infrastructure. That's amazing. this kind of like interoperability and these new ways for people to create content and then monetize it directly with their audience without spotify taking i don't know 70 80 percent of money yeah it's huge and like think of someone like like uh like taylor swift she has the ability to push around these these uh different companies but no one really else smaller than her can even huge artists can um but what if what if you know taylor and everyone else could publish their music

Starting point is 00:20:46 and go directly to their fans the their ability to negotiate and work with centralized platforms changes completely and yeah the world hasn't adopted bitcoin yet but when they do that's going to be possible too so there's a lot of awesome kind of freedom enhancements that come with every element of using the internet and digital content and digital products, Bitcoin enhances all of that directly. So that's why I think like, you know, boomers will use Bitcoin because it's just going to get integrated into their lives anyways. And soon they're going to be supporting politicians and other people that maybe they think they

Starting point is 00:21:23 need to support with Bitcoin because those politicians, one, I know this for a fact in the u.s if you're a democrat you have to in your candidate you have to you have to fundraise in u.s dollars via the democratic platform called fund blue seriously yeah so fun take bitcoin for example no you can but if you want to take fiat you need to use fund blue okay and then fund blue they take a cut and then and then two it's it's effectively a wire to your bank account so they get the money and then they're going to bulk do a wire and then so there's a wire fee and the money doesn't settle for three to five business days but a politician can get bitcoin immediately and then and liquidate it into their bank account immediately we obviously we don't think that well

Starting point is 00:22:12 of politicians but soon politicians will be like please give me bitcoin instead right it's like because it's just that much better and i think your main question is like what are some tools Honestly, if you haven't adopted Bitcoin already, start educating yourself on Bitcoin and get to the point where you feel comfortable buying and holding Bitcoin. And frankly, by the time you're at that point, the tools will have changed because this ecosystem is moving so fast. But they'll have gotten better. They'll have gotten better. You know, I've been Bitcoin for five years. The digital wallets that are the cream of the crop have changed many times over since I've been here.

Starting point is 00:22:46 um so the tools today are the worst tools that will ever exist in bitcoin and the tools yesterday were the worst tools that ever existed bitcoin so that's what's so bullish about this ecosystem is by the time you're educated and you're ready like there's going to be better tools and there's going to be better resources and all of these tools separate you from needing to rely on middlemen and needing to trust for your money and for the money elements of what you're trying to do like that's the underlying ethos love it but people still need to know noster for example right okay yeah so noster is a cool tool yeah so a replacement for social media a lot of my audience will not know bitcoin yeah so that's the time to like orange pill some people so think about here's

Starting point is 00:23:36 here's the amazing thing about bitcoin and we can talk about noster specifically think about bitcoin as like a foundation and once you have this foundation in this network that is operating you can bootstrap other networks on it so now you have a money network that's open and is established and someone came up with a really clever way to do identity and messaging on another protocol called NOSR, which stands for notes and other stuff transmitted through relay. So super nerdy, you don't actually ever need to think about like what it means. But ultimately, what it's doing is now there's Bitcoin. And now there's a social media messaging layer on top of Bitcoin. And it's leveraging Bitcoin in order to get started. And there's people like Jack Dorsey, Robert F. Kennedy,

Starting point is 00:24:31 uh edward snowden uh matt taibi people were being marginalized by real existing social media platforms that they find this and like wow this is an option the crazy thing is uh there's a application like a wallet for or a browser for nostre called damas it was the first browser that got approved on the app store and as soon as it got approved on the app store it was flooded by chinese people trying to have free social media trying to communicate freely and then within three days of that apple was forced by the ccp to take it out take down this off the chinese app store yeah they did well yeah because apple's completely cucked by the ccp but excuse my language but um yeah i mean that that's what bitcoin and again no one saw nostra coming no one cared about about

Starting point is 00:25:24 this use case until it was real and in production and there are other we should say there are other use cases for noster is social media and messaging is just one of them yeah that's the alpha use case you can transfer any type of packet of information on top of that noster is almost like a tool to uh to post messages uh put listing you could list like a product for sale and all of the payment infrastructure is already built in right so imagine you just spun up your noster account again 15 minutes ago i just did it and then in two minutes you can add a lightning wallet to it yes and then you can post something and say hey i'll ship it to your house whatever you know you could you could post something say i'll ship it to your house if you want to dm me and then you

Starting point is 00:26:11 can receive payment all instantaneously without having to give up your identity without having to give up anything and these are just the early early use cases the boomers who may be listening think about the trajectory of the internet how difficult was it to use internet when it was only email and only AOL and then now it's just gotten so much more useful and so much more powerful and we're seeing that again happening on Bitcoin, Noster and this like stack building up that is a sovereign and free internet it's the opposite of the CBDC and the closed garden Facebook world that you know is being pushed on us from every england with you 100 you know why i'm laughing because in the year 2000 i was a teacher i was that was one of my first jobs after the army

Starting point is 00:26:59 i was a teacher for older people to how to use the internet how to use emails what is the internet how to use office client whatever and that was such early days 2000 2001 people didn't get it like what is the internet what is the search engine how do i search stuff and we're in that phase now with the bitcoin infrastructure there is so much that can be built on it and to be honest me being relatively new inside a bitcoin community a year and a half i'd say something like that when i came into it and because i'm i have tech background i'm a computer programmer and and i've been in tech for 20 years in marketing and I've seen a lot of tech and I've seen a lot of very advanced technology in the last 20 years especially coming out of the all the startups that I was

Starting point is 00:27:51 working with I'm looking at the different clients and the different use cases and the different things that are being developed and implemented on the bitcoin infrastructure and I was amazed because I just didn't know I was not into it before but now I'm looking I'm amazed to see how early on this baby is still such early stages. And people think that, you know, oh, I'm late for the game. It doesn't matter what dollar value this thing has. That's the biggest misconception out there, right?

Starting point is 00:28:30 Oh, yeah. It doesn't matter. It's just like the beginning of the game. And it doesn't matter that almost 20 million Bitcoins have been mined already and there's only 21 million in circulation. It doesn't matter because it's not about that. It's about changing the infrastructure, the oxygen we breathe, the money we use, right?

Starting point is 00:28:51 And then building everything on top of that. And so there is so much more to this journey. It's really just the beginning. And I think it's very exciting because with the level of where we are in the world and developing technology today, this can go very, very far. There is so much that can be built on this. And I think we've only just begun.

Starting point is 00:29:19 Everything you said, I endorse. I fully agree with everything that you just said. And I would say even Bitcoin enthusiasts underestimate how early we are. They're so deep in the weeds that they expect things to have been further along or they think that we're further along. uh and that taints how they see like the potential of this but if you realize that truly using

Starting point is 00:29:45 bitcoin not to say you have to fully understand it but i think like you have to you have to know how to hold it i think like that it should be the threshold for using bitcoin and if that's the threshold we're at less than 0.0001 adoption globally you know what i would say less than than 40 million people are probably have are at that threshold and there's eight billion people on the planet so you can do the math on that it's we're we're not even at one percent adoption but it's a fixed supply asset and so if you want to think about how high is bitcoin gonna go in dollar terms i mean it's gonna go to unspeakable amounts but if you think about bitcoin as a measuring system for value, a measuring and communicating system for value, its ultimate promise is it's actually

Starting point is 00:30:35 going to help humanity allocate resources better, which will actually create more wealth. So you can take all the assets on earth and divide it by the fixed supply, which is 21 million. But if Bitcoin is what we think it is, if it has all of this potential, if it's going to help humanity become more efficient more effective more uh productive then that is the most bearish case is infinity divided by 21 million because infinity is going to get bigger right and and therefore where this goes we can't tell we can't know because we don't know the future of human evolution and our ability to continue to advance ourselves but with better communication and scaling technologies that Bitcoin is, that better money is, it should help us get even further along

Starting point is 00:31:27 than we are, make better decisions than we do. And you can look at fiat and you can look at the bad incentives of CBDCs and you can look at the bad incentives of debt and you can blame a lot of bad decision-making and bad incentives and wars and atrocities on that dynamic, that game. Like don't hate the player, hate the game. Bitcoin's changing the game, right? And Bitcoin's a better game and hopefully all the players within the game will do better with their decisions and that should make more value. So I'm actually very famous for saying two things. No one is bullish enough because I don't think it's possible to be bullish enough. But two, I try to shock people. The block subsidy, the reward that happens every 10 minutes in the Bitcoin network, it goes

Starting point is 00:32:12 down by half every four years in 95 years the reward will be 37 sats so i like to shock people by saying if bitcoin works in 95 years 37 sats will be generational wealth and why that shocks people is that 37 sats is one penny today today less than one penny today so imagine less than one penny in the future will be generational wealth well how do i justify that well one if you look back 95 years point point to someone who could tell that we would be having this conversation recording it and broadcasting it to the world and all this stuff how could they know that we would have this in 95 years this capabilities if you if you bake in human progress over the next 95 years bitcoin's a fixed supply asset we know how mining works in terms of

Starting point is 00:32:59 we are harnessing energy and pointing it towards solving shaw 256 algos and that's how you get the block reward well more more hashes and i know i'm getting very technical but more energy than we can harness today will be pointed at getting those 37 sats right because that's what bitcoin does is it harnesses energy and uses it to protect the network and it rewards people who do that with the block reward so for bitcoin to work more energy will have to come onto the network we'll have to continue to secure the network with more energy but the the sats number is going down if bitcoin works 37 sats has to be the the driving factor for more energy than we can harness today to be harnessed so therefore it has to be extremely extremely valuable and it has to be so valuable

Starting point is 00:33:52 that that it can do that that people will be incentivized to do that and i think that that is really really important for people to understand that like bitcoin doesn't work in the medium scenario bitcoin works when the world adopts it and that's the really the only option for bitcoin to work paradigm shift and that's what people struggle with because they think that if there is a uh fixed fixed amount it means something bad and it's over and no no no that's the other way around the way we perceive money today is not at all how you perceive money in the bitcoin world yeah and and people will say like oh well because bitcoin's volatile or bitcoin even if bitcoin's value only goes up you can't use that to measure to make economic calculation

Starting point is 00:34:38 in the current paradigm you can't but you'll be in a new paradigm yeah right in that paradigm i think will actually give you more accurate information yeah from the economy and that is so so important in terms of making good economic decisions so if i could if i could just give a bullish case for bitcoin is that yeah it is a better system for measuring value and communicating value and therefore it will create more value and that's why it will be adopted so our ability to comprehend that kind of paradigm shift as people living with today's context is is very very difficult you know only only the the smartest five people on the planet have the like mental aptitude to like connect the dots and forecast that far out even directly, correctly.

Starting point is 00:35:29 So it's important to humble yourself to know, like, if this is a paradigm shift, like I can't understand how big it is going to be because it's a paradigm shift. Now I'm with you and staying humble is always important. Absolutely. We don't always do that. So, so that's a good one. And CK, anything you want people to know about you, about what you're doing today, any message you want to leave them with?

Starting point is 00:35:58 Yeah, I mean, hey, we live in a world that I think a lot of us are energized to make better. I would really call on the listeners to like, don't give in to nihilism. Humanity has gone through so many ups and downs, but ultimately, I think life has gotten better and more equitable. And we as a race and a species and a society have always gained more value over time. And I just think that that trend is going to continue. So don't get pushed down by adversaries and all the challenges that humanity faces. Younger people, especially, I think, you know, are most vulnerable and feel like they're most like they don't have a light.

Starting point is 00:36:47 They can't afford a home. They don't see a path for them to have to work 24 seven to actually have a good quality of life. And humanity finds a way. And I think that Bitcoin is another reminder that that is the case, that through the struggle, we find a way to get better. And it gives me a lot of hope. So I feel bad for people who don't have Bitcoin in their lives, because it's a harsh scary world out there and everyone needs a little bit of hope so i love that you say that because the end of our panel was also humanity finds his way and you you brought those words uh to life in the panel and i i appreciate you for that because i think that people forget how creative we can be in times of trouble and really tough times and we are experiencing tough times right

Starting point is 00:37:34 now and yes i think if people open their minds a little bit more to those new alternatives that are out there led by bitcoin their lives are gonna start getting better and yes the your message for the youth is super important because we see so many young people depressed these days yeah hope it's very sad and you are a young person that is so sane that has two feet on the ground and yeah and your head in the right place your heart in the right place and you know i i encourage people to follow you and and yeah and read you and yeah and take your content because uh you're someone that needs to be followed and and be inspired by so thank you so much thanks thank you and i and i know uh in our conversations you you you were like it's money time so y'all it is

Starting point is 00:38:28 the money time it's time to fix the money it is so that way we can fix the world and and keep building a better world but thank you so much for having me on the show great conversation i've it's been a pleasure to get to know you too uh through the panel and through this this event so uh i'm a big fan now all right thank you dear thank you so much thanks for being with us

You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 22: Christian Keroles (CK) - Bitcoin is Changing the Game

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