You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 35: Matej Zak - Self-Custody & Self-Sovereignty

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

My guest today is Matej Zak, the CEO of Trezor, a Bitcoin & Crypto hardware wallet company. We discussed the importance of self-custody of Bitcoin and the new products and services that Trezor has launched: The Trezor Safe 5 and “Trezor Expert''. We talked about Trezor’s company culture and open positions. Matej explains the key differences between holding an ETF and self-custody, highlighting the benefits of using a hardware wallet. We touched on the challenges of regulation and the attack on privacy, the challenges of operating a hardware business, and Trezor’s business cycles that correlate with Bitcoin’s bull & bear cycles. We also discussed governments and politicians reactions to Bitcoin, and ended with Bitcoin startups created as an antidote to Communism: Matej believes the Czech Republic has a high number of Bitcoin startups due to the people’s spirit and appreciation of freedom and sovereignty in light of its past communist oppressive regime.  ►► Trezor’s Safe 5 - use my code for a 5% discount: ⁠⁠https://affil.trezor.io/SHZa⁠⁠  ►► Trezor Expert - 20% off for a limited time: ⁠⁠https://affil.trezor.io/SHZZ⁠⁠  ► If you got value, please like, comment, share, follow/subscribe and support my work. Thank you! -- CHAPTERS – 00:00 Behind the Scenes... 00:40 Introduction & Background 04:50 Matej’s Journey to CEO 09:40 Productivity vs. 9-5 Jobs 13:15 New: Trezor Safe 5 16:20 New: "Trezor Expert" Service  19:15 Regulation and Self-Custody of Bitcoin 23:50 The Benefits of Self-Custody vs. ETF'ing 29:50 Developing User-Friendly Hardware Wallets  32:05 Bitcoin-Centric & Supporting Other Cryptocurrencies 33:45 Lobbying Efforts with Institutions? 35:05 Politicians Endorsing Self-Custody 37:40 Challenges in Hardware Businesses: Global Chip Shortage 42:40 Being Bootstrapped & Holding Bitcoin Reserves  44:44 Communism & Bitcoin Startups ► Matej’s talk from BTC Prague (June 2024): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQ_Cy1f1VI  -- SPONSORS – ►► Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn  ►► Join me at Bitcoin Nashville with 10% off tickets (use code BTCIL): https://glnk.io/lr8q9/btcil    -- LINKS – Matej’s Twitter: https://x.com/matej_zak  Trezor’s Twitter: https://x.com/trezor  Trezor’s website: https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn Efrat's Twitter: https://twitter.com/efenigson Efrat's Telegram: https://t.me/efenigson Watch/listen on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoice Support Efrat's work: ⁠https://www.buymeacoffee.com/efenigson⁠ Support Efrat with Bitcoin: https://geyser.fund/project/efenigson

can imagine it's crazy or maybe i can't imagine good when you're ready we're ready to roll we're ready to roll okay matthew right this is how i say it yes matthew and and the um surname is jack jack which literally means uh like a pupil in in czech a pupil some i'm a lifelong student exactly okay so you're a student exactly exactly humble student of mine okay so hello and welcome to another episode of you're the voice i'm very very happy to be with you here today filming this from prague the beautiful city of prague a place i haven't been in for 30 years, and it's just amazing. I have the honor to sit here today with Mathieu Jacques. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here, Mathieu. Mathieu is the CEO of Trezor. I'm

launching this studio at the Trezor offices in Prague. Am I the first one recording here? Yeah? Oh my god. They've built this studio so that they can start recording podcasts, which is amazing, right on time, two days before BTC Prague. And so I will introduce you in a second to my audience, but I just want to give my disclaimer. As you may have seen in my recent announcement on Twitter, I have the honor and pleasure to collaborate with Trezor on my podcast. If I didn't share the same set of values and mission as Trezor,

I wouldn't be sitting here. So I fully trust the company and I think that they're doing an amazing work and that's why they're my sponsor of my podcast. So that's my disclaimer. Thanks for collaborating with me. And yeah, so Mathieu, I want to introduce you for those who don't know you and don't know Trezor. I know your public image is a little bit more on the low side, so maybe not many people know you. And I think it's an opportunity to introduce you to them. So Mathieu is the CEO of Trezor. He joined Satoshi Labs in 2019 as a product manager of a small team and successfully expanded it into a dedicated product department with over 40 people.

Mathieu was also responsible for the development of the Trezor Suite software. I have a feature request for you. Happy to accept this. enabling users to manage, buy, and exchange their crypto with utmost usability, security, and privacy. Having graduated from Berklee College of Music, he's also an active musician with a passion for adrenaline-pumping sports like paragliding. And today you came here cycling, right? So you do some sports.

And what do you play? Which instrument? Guitar. Guitar. And bass guitar. Like all kind of guitars. Super cool. Anything you want to add to this short intro? Just like a funny note, I told my colleagues that I spent some time in this very room

because I was moving places. I had to live in the office for a couple of months. So this was previously my studio. So I had my drum set here and guitars and stuff. So it's just like a funny side note. So where is it now? It's in my place. I moved to a new place.

But yeah, I think the description or let's say the bio, as you describe it, is, I think, fairly accurate. So, yeah, nothing that comes to mind, I guess, as an addition to it. I like the balance between the music and the artistic side to the technological side. Yeah, honestly, that's really nice because it kind of allows me to switch communities, I would say, and get different ideas from different people hang out with people that are completely maybe different in some way of thinking which is obviously extremely like inspirational for my life and and also let's say it's it's a nice way i can kind of um relax you know after work because obviously we are like in tech industry and bitcoin industry but then it's nice to just

hang out with my you know buddies from the band and you know just play games yes we have like a a small jazz band that we play small gigs and stuff like that here in prague here in prague and you know and the next gig is actually like a wedding of our friends you know and all those kind of things but yeah it's fun i i love it it's awesome very cool all right so quite a jump from being a product manager to a ceo in five years tell us about this shift and about the founders that entrusted you with this big mission? Yeah, so interestingly, product managers are often labeled as mini-CEOs of a product, actually. Why is that?

It's because product management as a function in the company basically connects business, design, and technology. So it's like overlapping those three areas, very much as, you know, a tech company would do, right? Like, it's all the functions that you need. And so that's, I think, why product managers are quite nicely positioned in terms of, like, their careers for, like, leadership positions in that sense because it kind of makes sense because they need to understand all those areas

and be more sort of like a generalist that, you know, understand a little bit of everything. Yeah. and so that's exactly I think why that happened in my in my case also I was kind of always like curious you know as we just I guess talked about the the Czech like my name what it means in English and it's basically like pupil or you know lifelong student and so I think I was kind of studying fairly fast and and I was also trying to fix a lot of things that I saw didn't didn't work and I think the founders kind of saw it

and enjoyed the fact that they have somebody in the team who's like, you know, doing all this dirty work that needs to be done. So there's that and also as a company, we are obviously, we are growing and we needed to get more people in the teams and I really enjoy the leadership aspect of the work where basically, yeah, working with people

and for the people, I really enjoy that part. How many people in the company? We will be close to 200 this year. In Trezor? In Trezor alone, yes. And the whole group? The whole group. Don't quote me on that, but I think it will be probably 250, maybe 270, something like this altogether.

And you've been hiring more people lately, right? Right. In Trezor alone, we have around 20 to 30 open positions right now, mainly for engineering product and business. So all you Bitcoiners, software developers, hardware developers that are listening to this, probably go to the Trezor website and check out the positions. Cool. Can they work remotely? Yes, it is something that we are, I think that's the only good thing that COVID, I think, brought to the world. The only good thing.

Yeah, that's more common. And for us, I could definitely tell the switch in the, you know, in the company's mentality as well in a way we being like more friendly with remote colleagues in terms of, you know, supporting them and even proactively looking for people outside of Czech Republic. So, yeah, for sure. Of course, there are certain roles where it is not as easy or let's say not as. Yeah, not as efficient maybe. Yeah, not as efficient or practical. those are mainly the hardware roles where yeah if you need to prototype something you know it's like you really need to have your hands on on the thing so really hands-on and and yeah so so

certain roles not possible but uh most of most of the roles with great pleasure i'd like to introduce my sponsors they help me fulfill my mission of spreading truth freedom and sovereignty you're the voice is brought to you by trezor the original bitcoin hardware wallet company pioneering the development of self-custody for crypto assets since 2013 empowering individuals with an open source device enabling beginners and experts to easily and securely hold their coins i find my trezor super easy to use and recommend it to my friends and family enjoy my five percent discount on trezor product by clicking the link in the show notes and using the code a flat next up is bitcoin nashville if you're like me sick of the globalists and central banks robbing you blind

through excessive money printing you need to be at bitcoin 2024 in nashville this july the largest bitcoin conference in the world will shed light on monetary freedom with a glimmer of hope among a darkening reality of centralized power and control top speakers and companies will gather in nashville to take part in building a new reality i'll be there too speaking and interviewing head Head over to my link in the notes for a 10% discount using the code PCIL. You see, I think I used to work in corporate tech companies for about 20 years. So I was a CMO of companies and startups. So I have experience in company cultures and how CEOs or founders would look at working remotely versus bringing people back to the office.

And I think that there's something about the old fashioned fiat mindset of I need to see the people in front of me, but also I need to make sure that they're clocking the nine to five and they're giving the hours that I'm paying them for rather than looking at value or productivity or the production of what they're bringing. So whenever I used to work at bigger companies and I had my own team, my marketing team, my product team, I would tell them, I'm looking at your productivity. I don't care what the company policy is. And I used to have some trouble with my bosses always, but I didn't want to limit them. So as long as you, you know, deliver and you give me the value that you're supposed to give me, me, the company, the, you know, what you're here for, then I don't care when you work and how you do it. That's all I care about. And it takes, it's, I think it's the don't trust verify. You know, if you verify for me that you can do the work, do I care where you sit and how many hours you're here?

If you're smart, brilliant, bright, and you can do it in half the time than another person, why do I need to demand you to give me 10 hours just because the policy said so, you know? So there's this kind of openness, I think, and it's about people and how they perceive their relationships with other people, the trust and value that people need to create. and there's something in the fiat system that is so enslaving, that is so demanding, we got used to it without questioning it. Is it needed? Is it necessary? I mean, 100%, I subscribe to this idea, of course. And I think it's really embedded in our culture

to have this accountability and the individual accountability and sort of the responsibility, but also the rights that comes with that responsibility, obviously. so yeah it's i think if we were if we were to work with people who would who we would as a company let's say need to give some guidelines and when and how and where to work those wouldn't be the right people anyway right so because you don't you don't want people who just you have to kind of you know babysit babysit exactly and give some strict boundaries and what and when you can do actually we I mean obviously as we are growing we need processes and we are building processes

of course we have certain guidelines and rules etc but we try to have as loose of those as possible in terms of like empowering people to work on what they want to do right because in and especially like in an innovation and product it's you actually want these like empowered teams who bring their own ideas and etc and and so it's very much also connected to where I mean, if they get the idea from the beach, so why not do it at a beach? You know, it's perfectly fine, right? Yeah, I love that. I think that when you stay open, it's like anarchy, right?

You put the rules in place and you let the people do it. You let the free market speak, right? It's really great. So you're going to make some announcements at BTC Prague in a couple of days. Correct. This is probably not going to be aired until Prague, so we're fine. I hope. No, no, it won't.

Don't worry, I don't have time to edit and put it out. But if you can share with us what you're going to announce and what kind of new innovations you've been working on at Trezor. Yeah, absolutely. So we are launching basically two new products. One is a hardware product and the other one is service. Let's call it that way. The product is a new addition to our Trezor Safe series,

which you might have, I think, heard of Trezor Safe 3, which was a hardware device, new hardware device that we introduced at the end of last year. And at BTC Prague, we will be launching something we call Trezor Safe 5. So that's the new range, let's say, above DS3. From 3 to 5, we jumped? Yes. There is basically some space for future editions in that line.

And so that's why we, you know, brainstormed the ideas of the range, et cetera, and came up with this idea. It's basically a new device that is mainly built for people that would interact with Bitcoin and crypto more often. So it has like a touch display with like a color touch display. So as opposed to, you know, TS3 is basically you can see the information better on the device. It also features, for example, secure elements. So it's something, for example, the previous Model T doesn't have. Security elements are specialized chips, like security chips, that protect the master secret on the device.

So even if some attacker would get a hold of the device physically, it would be close to impossible for them to extract the private keys, basically, from the device. Through another passphrase? No, passphrase is not saved on the device. So that's something you would, we still recommend everybody to use because that's unhackable, literally, because it's not on the device. So even if some attacker got hold of the device, they cannot get it. But, of course, there is data, like physical data on the device. And the secure element is now a standard in the hardware world market.

It basically is an additional layer of security, let's say, for the device. So that's what we added as well. The device also features haptic feedback. So basically it's nice to play with. Yeah, you just feel the… Yeah, it like vibrates basically when you, for example, confirm transaction and stuff like that. There is a new firmware in it.

It's really beautiful. We are using a lot of these like swipe gestures. So it's really nice to sort of navigate through whatever you are doing with the device, being it's sending transaction, receiving transaction, doing exchanges, et cetera, et cetera. Cool. And the service? Yeah, it's something we call Trezor Expert. Yep. And it does exactly that.

It's basically a service where you can book a session with an expert from our team who will help you to get onboarded into self-custody Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Nice. Because we, you know, like all of us basically in the company, we onboarded many friends and, you know, like people. Oh, I know. I onboard a lot of people and they need help. Like Bitcoin pumping and you would get calls, you know, from a lot of friends, right? Like we all know this.

So that's why we came with this idea to basically do it like properly with really super highly trained experts who you can just book a session and they will walk you through our ecosystem, but also some of the broader ideas. Is it like time limited, like a one hour session? Yes, currently, those are 60 minutes sessions. Yes. And from our experience, it is like a sufficient enough for the, let's say, the first experience with Is it like a Zoom call that you do with them? Yes, we are using different service. But yeah, that's the idea. You basically book a session in a calendar. And we

have a different studio in this building where we have basically agents who um experts and it's in english i guess uh correct okay that's great i mean people from all over the world will be able to use that yes that is so nice thank you for doing of course like i'll be able to recommend this to people that come to me for help i don't i don't want to take that role you know some people are good at stuff and others are good at other things i yeah teaching people takes patience and yeah for sure and uh this service actually uh has been launched already because we it was in like a silent beta uh so we because it was like a testing yes we did it for but it will be only officially launched at btc prank so far it's quite amazing

but it got like full marks so everybody who booked the session uh and we send this like review forms basically they all gave it like 10 out of 10 which is which is super nice so we are quite happy about that and you've got to get your trezor before you book a service right yeah you can you can you can actually do both you can if you already bought it for examples through like a trusted reseller like such as amazon or something you can book the session as a solo kind of product but also you can buy it let's say as a bundle with you know trezor and and the as well. Very, very cool. Thank you for sharing that with me. I'm very glad to hear about this especially, but also at the wallet. Okay. Given the push for CBDCs, do you see something similar

to an executive order 6102 coming back in the Bitcoin version, like that they're going to try and seize or confiscate personal custody or self-custody of Bitcoin? And what will be the meaning in your eyes? I mean, it's hard to predict the future, of course. But that being said, of course, there are certain worries about the regulation closing in on self-custody, right?

Like non-KYC self-custody products and services, let's say. so of course there are some worries about this uh do i think that's right uh of course not like i think it's actually the human right to be able to uh you know keep keep bitcoin in self-custody um without the need to you know kyc or anything like that so so i don't i don't know where the future is going to get it's not the future of course i i like but uh we will see yeah i guess we will have to wait for you know whatever happens yeah and uh we definitely are seeing the attack on privacy related services and products in the bitcoin space lately with uh samurai and um and other developments not that i was surprised but i was definitely you know disappointed to see

what happened and and it's another it's another game it's another development in the game i think where the the institution is trying to fight bitcoin in the only way that is possible because technologically they can't do much so they try to cover all their bases around it with laws and regulations. And yeah, but also, like, I think it's kind of funny that, you know, Wall Street, and I don't know, CC, I guess, you know, those guys have been labeling Bitcoin and crypto, as a I don't know, drug money and weapons money and whatnot. For the, let's say 15 years, or maybe later, because, because

they didn't notice Bitcoin from the beginning, but now you have the ETS right coming even, even the crypto, not just Bitcoin. And so I guess the the, what is it like 2 trillion market capital capitalization and, you know, 500 million users kind of change their mind, you know, so, so it's at the end, the business as well, right? Very obviously for them. So because they I guess saw it as some kind of competition. And their tool, the fiat system, is so flawed that it's inevitable for them to come into the Bitcoin game through ETFs because they have to keep pumping the fiat system.

And the ETF is another method for them. So they're helping Bitcoin. I don't know how much the ETF is a help for the Bitcoin industry, but in a way it is just by virtue of introducing people to this asset. And they have to do it because they have to be open to any shape and form of growth of the fiat economy. Yeah, correct. The debt economy. Yeah, for sure. And I think Michael Saylor had a quite nice talk on this in Madeira.

But he basically says like Bitcoin is for everyone. And then he explains everyone, you know, being families, governments, funds, businesses, corporate, you know, nations, basically. So I think it's cool. But, of course, we as a company are on the side of, I mean, it's still peer-to-peer electronic cash system. So if you can hold it yourself, why not to hold it yourself, right? Sure. And we are making products that are, you know, extremely easy to use. You can use them every day.

so why not use those as opposed to holding like a legal contract to like an obligation to that somebody owes you bitcoin but they don't even have it themselves maybe they keep it on an exchange you can just get hacked all the time bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system as satoshi invented it i mean it's to be held by individuals and it can be done in an easy way so why not to right? So a lot of my audience has been red pilled during COVID. And I am in a way orange pilling them through my podcast with people like you and others. And so that is a good bridge transition, I think, for you to say a few words about the key difference between holding an ETF for those of my audience that are taking their first steps in Bitcoin, but they're too afraid.

So they're holding an ETF to then do the jump to a self-custody. How can you explain to them that bridge? Right. Okay, so I'm not a financial expert. I hope I don't make any mistakes. But the way I understand it, the ETF is basically a fund. And I think there are two types currently, which is like a spot ETF, a fund that actually holds the Bitcoin. And then the future ETFs that don't even hold the Bitcoin, it's basically like an option or a contract, like a legal obligation, let's say.

And you can buy it through these companies, through these funds, and it's exactly this. It's basically like a contract that they hold your Bitcoin and they track the price over time. The problem with this specifically, I suppose what you can do in self-custody is you will pay fees for this. You're not going to be holding just like the Bitcoin and let's say speculating on the price or the price movement over time. But also the CTF funds will eat some of those gains because that's their business. Yeah, that's the model. That's their business. As opposed to you can start self-custody, ideally in a hardware wallet, because that's the safest way to do it, to keep the private keys offline.

And there are no recurring costs and nobody knows about it. You don't have to connect your KYC data, like your identity to this. it's basically the way it should be right like nobody should care about like how much money you have or stuff like that so so i would say that's like those two biggest biggest benefits and i heard you giving a very surprising statistic which i wasn't aware of um you said that there are roughly 450 million people holding cryptocurrencies today and out of which between 8 to 10 million are holding it in hardware wallets. Correct.

This is nothing. This is like, it's crazy. It is. And we have still a lot of work to do, I guess. So people don't really get what self-custody in a hardware wallet means. I think so. To me, it's like so obvious. Yeah, I think there might be like a leap from the past

where maybe the hardware, just my assumption as a product manager is that hardware wallets started as sort of geeky products. You know, built by geeks, used by geeks, and used by tech people who really understood what's going on. And I think now we are, just now, we are moving, us and Honest Level Competitors as well, are moving to a space where we are trying to make it extremely user-friendly. The onboarding is very seamless, etc. And I think we are doing a really good job at that. And Trezor Safe 5 and Trezor Expert are, you know, kind of the testimony to that.

But we are at the beginning of this bigger adoption of hardware worlds. That's what I hope. And I think there are two things here. One is maybe the trust thing, that people don't trust themselves to manage their own assets and money. And we've been so accustomed to giving other people our power, giving other institutions our power. And in that as well, we're giving the bank, we're giving the government, the state, the power to hold what's ours without thinking about the implications of it and the property rights behind it. And I think that once you start taking sovereignty over your life,

it's like a natural course that you would want to hold your own assets, including your own Bitcoin. So that's like one thing. And the other thing is, like you said, the usability and how user friendly it is i think that people just have to start thinking about hardware wallets as as the next usb key you have a discon key you have a usb key that and and you have a hardware wallet like one is for your data and information and one is for your money but it's the same kind of gadget you just need it with you whenever you're you're transacting like significant amounts of money and not your lightning wallet. So I think there's definitely a need in more education and like a mindset shift for people to

understand. Yeah, I think it's a it's a it's a great point. I think all of us I guess, had this like aha moment where maybe it's not normal to exactly like keep your assets within institutions ripping you off and, and and making your life harder and harder every day. Yeah, exactly. And maybe our banks didn't go out of business, maybe they didn't go bankrupt, but like 2008, you know,

and how many financial crises were there, like a debt crisis because the institutions didn't have the money that they were claiming they had, right? So, and the same thing, honestly, in crypto as well. Like, so exchanges, you know, going out of business all the time, like we will see in the launch presentation that I have this statistic there that is like 15 billion worth, the dollars worth of Bitcoin got like hacked uh or evaporated through you know scams and in 2022 alone so so just one wow yeah yeah 15 billion you know dollars and of course there is a lot of uh and again it's a statistic but then there are a

lot of people for which it wasn't a statistic right like it was their savings and those are the like Celsius FTX and all these so yeah so so if you can keep those coins yourself why would you not do it basically i know um okay why is the company bitcoin centric and less crypto centric what is the philosophy behind it and is it expected to change in terms of adopting the wallet to support other currencies i mean i know that the the strategy of introducing other currencies got you some public criticism as well.

So what's your philosophy? I actually like the way you ask the question because usually it's like when the next coin, you know. Yeah, so it means the other way around. I like the way you position it. So I think we are Bitcoiners for sure. Like the founders are Bitcoiners. Honestly, I'm a Bitcoiner.

I'm mostly in Bitcoin. And I think we all sense the difference between Bitcoin and crypto, right? Like the, like the better money, uh, you know, proof of work, exactly. And then, uh, and then crypto, um, but that being said also like this free market maximalism is, I think what, at least in my opinion, we should be doing as a company.

So if, if our products can support other use cases by not deriving from the mission. So basically the core of the product, what it does, it's, it's keeping your private keys securely. if you can do for bitcoin but for other cryptocurrencies as well why not right if there if there is a demand for it and i'm not by the way saying i'm not saying we should if somebody asked for it we should do it as a you know i think there's this famous quote from henry ford if you know people ask him what what they wanted they would want it faster horses not a car so of course our approach is uh definitely more conservative in a way that we don't just like

support whatever next uh sorry to say bullshit like out there what's the next trend yeah because it's not well it's not good business because like it's you need to invest some you know money into you know developing it and supporting it etc maybe it dies out you know the next months or whatever so it's not it's not practical but it's even philosophical it's probably not right because you are not even sure whether you know it's not some kind of almost like a scammy project or something so so you want to support only i would say projects that are um that have some traction and you know that have been on the market for a while um but yeah like free market maximalism so i think if if there is a demand for it and we can do it within the means of our mission

then it's we should do it because also by the way by supporting more more of these networks you can lure, let's say, more people in self-custody, right? And get that number of those. Eight to 10 million. Yeah, like basically 2% for all crypto users to use self-custody of a hardware wallet, right? And by doing that, just also very practically, you can reinvest those earnings into innovation again.

So you can do also better stuff for Bitcoin and for our products, right? So that can be more usable, bigger reach, et cetera. So I think it's a, I would say, the same strategy. And it doesn't defocus you from your mission? I don't think so. I don't think so, because the way we are structured as an organization, because we have a solely, you know, we have dedicated Bitcoin teams, R&D teams that are really the

maxis that know everything about it and are extremely passionate about it. But then also we have teams that are working on, let's say, crypto, right, crypto projects. And I think those should not be competitive within the organization. But I will say it also as like maybe like a personal thing. Maybe we know the difference, you and me and everybody in the company between Bitcoin and crypto. And and I think it's it's quite clear where our focus is and want to be right. So so we'll say that as well. We talked about the institutional battle against private ownership.

And is Trezor doing something to operate like a lobby or a consortium or something to battle this in any way? It's like the push in both Europe and the US to fight private ownership is quite significant now. And, you know, since you are one of the leading companies in the space, are you working, operating on those levels as well? I would say not like very proactively, but we have like a local union or association, something like this, which we have supported in the past that is doing exactly that. So basically supporting Bitcoin and crypto as I think they mainly educate the government, if I understand it correctly. So they basically do this kind of lobbying in a way of educating what even is Bitcoin and why it's good. Again, like it's here locally in the Czech Republic. Yeah, locally, locally.

but I think if I'm not mistaken we do it at the Satoshi Labs level so that's kind of the mother company of the companies including Trezor and the other three so so yeah we have some activities like this but not like a massive

one that we would go to you know US and etc. Got it. It's quite encouraging to see some politicians recently talking in favor of personal custody and self custody I mean in the US it's crazy I never thought it would hit

like mainstream politicians and media and whatever and it does it is crazy I'm wondering where is this going to lead to this is all politics right right before the election yeah exactly but I wanted to say

exactly this but you know I'm not that optimistic or anything because it's the politics anyway so if one year something changes then they will be saying something else So, yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're taking them with a grain of salt.

Keep my hopes down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get you. I'm the same. At the same time, what it's doing to public perception is really great. Like, just the fact that they're saying these words in mainstream media or mainstream politics, people listen to them and they don't know what it is. Like, what is self-custody?

What do you mean I'm going to help you keep your Bitcoin? Like Trump is saying, I'm going to help you keep your custody of your Bitcoin. And people listen to it and it's like, this is Chinese for me. What does it mean? So that's already good, right, for market education? Yeah, I guess it is. I guess it is. I don't know if it can backfire in some way.

I'm not sure. Because I would say, like, maybe as an example, the ETFs, right? So we discussed, and I agree, it's a good marketing for Bitcoin, right? Because we are still, I think we are still early. Well, I don't know. Maybe it does. It needs some better future. I don't know.

It's just like I'm always careful when I hear it from politicians. Well, you know, it's interesting to take the point of view that Samson Mao had on it when I had a discussion, an episode with him on the podcast, and he was looking at ETFs as the funnel. He's like, this is the top, top, top of the funnel. Yeah, might be. They come in through there. It's up to us to now try and convert them to the next level of the funnel. And definitely ETFs is not the way you should be holding Bitcoin. But if you put your foot in the door through, great.

Now let's open the door. Yeah, I agree. But again, like you will see in the launch presentation, I would still like to argue like if you can get into self-custody because yeah. That's what I'm saying. Get through the door, grab yourself a hardware wallet and come sit on the couch with us. Yeah, sure. Otherwise, you can go have dinner with BlackRock. What were the most difficult moments of the company given that it experienced three bear markets?

Now, I know that you haven't been with the company for that long, but I'm sure you know the history and going through those waves. I think the one I experienced quite firsthand was this. And for those who don't know what a bear market means, it means when the market is in decline. right thanks and so i i experienced a couple interesting things maybe i'll start when i joined the company we i think i started like in may or something like this and at the end of the year we were we accrued one million dollar loss that was basically that was the uh the operating profit was basically loss of one million us dollars plus or minus i think if i remember correctly in 2022 uh the company made 50 million in revenue right something like this it's a it's a huge

kind of jump from um you can see what what happens like in in the market right so so our sales are tied to bitcoin price so whenever bitcoin is pumping uh it's extremely correlated together yeah there are some events on the market like banks going down or competition messing up or something where our sales will get some boost as well but mainly it's it's really bitcoin it's it's what it does for us um and i think the kind of toughest in our specific case is the hardware itself uh there's this sentence hardware is hard and it's exactly it's true because it's hard to build it's hard to develop because it takes years to to develop even um simple products and and the costs and exactly and the cost and and you need to have enough stock to be able to support

those bullish years right so so you need to actually have invest massive amounts of cash into into your stock yes and yeah so it's basically cash cash flow heavy let's say or cash flow um difficult let's say and i think where this hit us the most was when there was this chip shortage crisis globally so basically big companies didn't have the silicon and basically we didn't have the chips so that that was problematic because we simply couldn't sell because we didn't have the devices. I think who I think it was 2022. If I'm not if I'm not mistaken, and how is it now? Luckily, it got like better. So so we are fine now and the lead times and lead time is basically

you know, when you order some material and you wait for it, God's do normal, which I think could be anywhere from weeks to up to a healthier depending on what component we are talking. But back then, those lead times were, for example, two years for the chips, right? The MCU that is like the main thing in the device. So, yeah, so that was tough because then you couldn't sell, then you didn't have the cash, then you cannot build the stock because you didn't have the cash, and then you didn't have the stock, so you didn't sell.

It's like a vicious circle. And so that was not good. But it's just interesting, like, you know, like experience-wise, and I guess my life experience-wise, but everything can go wrong in a business. And if you're in a software, of course it has some advantages and disadvantages, but you definitely don't bear this hardware component to it.

So, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying. I used to work in a drone company. Oh, okay. We developed drones in big docking stations, a hardware company that recruited more than $120 million in VC funding. It was a big promise to the market. It was such a difficult business.

It was really, really difficult. So I know what you mean. People don't understand what it means to run a hardware business, a hardware tech business. And was it because of the competition? I think it was time to market, but also spread to too many global markets too early on. This is massive hardware with big investment

when you are opening a new market. So the company was spread between Australia as its first market in mining for mining companies and the United States, which are two very distant markets that you had to have like two separate operations in each one of them in order to succeed. It was a killer for the company, I think, too early on. It was only like a three, four-year-old company

when you did that. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I had some startup experiences before joining Cheshire. And honestly, we were like small teams, for example, in this one experience. And we had some investment as well. And it was the toughest years of my life.

You know, it's like... Stressful. Yeah, it's stressful. Like taking external cash is definitely stressful, but it's kind of nice specifically for us. We have never taken external capital. Yes. Are you bootstrapped? Are you working from your own revenues?

Yes, everything's bootstrapped. So I'm not saying it might change in the future, of course. I don't know if we need to scale more, it might happen. But so far, it's amazing because we can really live with our own decisions, right? So you don't kind of bear this extra responsibility for, you know, for the investors. And yeah, and it allows us to make, I would say, the right decisions, right? Like the ones that are really strictly aligned with our mission and not some business crazy, you know, new something, ventures, you know, it's like this kind of defocus. Yeah. You're a private company, so I don't know if you want to reveal that, but do you hold any of your reserves in Bitcoin?

We do have some reserves like that. Yeah. That makes sense, right? Yeah, because also you can... You can buy in Bitcoin. Exactly. You can buy our devices in Bitcoin. So that's why, yeah. Right, right, right. I didn't think about that. Okay. Very good. cool because you know i i would love to see this trend increasing of companies holding their reserves in bitcoin that would make a difference just like say they were saying in madera as you

referenced i think quite nicely or famously uh peter mccormack got this investment from the vincos brothers by butchering the names i'm sorry but i think he said that he will keep the bitcoin for the treasury or the savings of a company. It's amazing. And yeah, it's the Bitcoin mindset of saving and thinking about the future. I love that. I normally end the episode on like a message of hope

and we didn't get too much in this conversation to the global events that are happening around the world or the different trends and forces that are impacting where the world's going, but there's definitely a push towards a more controlled, a more censored way of living, especially in Western democracies. And you coming from a country

that have gone through communism and a lot of hardship, how do you see what's happening in the Western world with your perspective, with your eyes? I know that we cannot predict the future, But where do you think this is going, this trend towards more authoritarian regimes? Yeah, I think there are a lot of Bitcoin-related businesses in the Czech Republic, interestingly. You know, BTC Prague is considered one of the biggest Bitcoin conferences in the world now. There's us, there is Brains, there is Confirmo, there's exchanges.

There are basically businesses that are doing very well in Bitcoin. and we're thinking why that is right like how is that possible like a small nation uh in the middle of nowhere maybe i'm too harsh on our nation like how many people are in the check 10 million people 10 million yeah and we discussed this a couple times with with um our colleagues and and and yeah we think it's probably the the communism because it was like a dictatorship almost uh in certain years um there was i mean definitely like super strong oppression you know from the regime and you know like the human rights were not given to the people like even like my grandparents and so we all know it so we are sort of i would say the founders are one of the first generations

that that came into the world where they can operate freely they can start businesses and and they can do some uh some good and i think it's just this kind of mentality to um not play along with the system right so so i think that's why these companies started to do quite well here because there was a lot of people that were like f the system right like in in a certain way and and i don't mean in in some um bad way or illegal way but just like why play with rules that don't make sense like which the rules that restrict my human rights basically so so i think it's just a kind of interesting uh phenomenon and yeah we just hope that there will be more companies, businesses, entrepreneurs, startups

that would do exactly that as well, that will create products and services and innovate on Bitcoin, that more people will basically live with it and will follow its kind of mission and philosophy. And I don't think the governments, I don't know, I'm not an expert on the topic, but just seeing the history, I don't think the government will do anything else different in the future. It will always be the same.

They'll always try to push against those things because they want to be in control. But I think there's always an opportunity for companies such as Trezor to build products and services that can push back, let's say. Push back and create a new reality. What you guys are doing is helping, I call it creating the orange path. You have the dark path and the orange path. That's amazing. And thank you so much for having this conversation with me, for speaking openly, for hosting me here. And good luck at the conference.

You're giving an opening speech, right? Yes, but today I have some practice session internally, so that's equally nerve-wracking. I know, I know. I'm also giving a presentation and I'm wrecked by that. You know, it's 20 minutes that is consuming like two weeks before the conference. It's nerve-wracking. Yeah, I'm not a huge public speaker aficionado, but it needs to be done. It's part of the role.

Exactly. Well, good luck. Thank you very much. And thanks for having me. I'll be there to watch your talk. And I'll also put a link in the show notes to your speech. Awesome. And also I'll put a link to the new Trezor service and products, which will probably be live by the time we upload this episode.

So you can enjoy that. And with my discount, you can enjoy a 5% discount on Trezor website with using my code, EFRAAT. So give it a go and definitely take the self-custody path if you haven't yet and your keys and your coins are on some exchange. you have to move them to a hardware wallet. So, yeah. Mathieu, thank you so much. Thank you very much. I appreciate this conversation.

Thank you. I appreciate it as well. Thank you. Thanks for watching!