You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 54: Samson Mow - Why CBDCs Will Fail & Bitcoin Wins

Starting point is 00:00:00 I honestly think we should have already crossed the 100,000. The system is so broken, the spring is coiled so tightly that I honestly wake up every day, I look at it, I'm expecting to see it going up 10k, 20k, 30k. The demand is far outpacing supply and sellers seem to be exhausted. Trump likes to checkmark his promises. Like when he said he'll build a wall,

Starting point is 00:00:20 he didn't build a wall straight across, which was kind of implying. He built a wall like, you know, partway. So if he says he's going to create a Bitcoin reserve treasury of 1 million Bitcoin. If he does 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, that's still good. I was in Japan and I create one slide that says how much Bitcoin a country should have

Starting point is 00:00:39 based on their gold holdings. And what's your ratio? Is it like the same? It's like the same amount of gold you have, you should have the same amount of Bitcoin? Tether has won the battle for stable coins. Every dollar stable coin that's launched has just floundered. Circle is in decline.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Tether has won. it's just like a common standard now in the entire world by and large there is no way to displace tether it has network effects samson mao thanks for being here with me good to be here once again i'm so happy to have you back on my show it's an honor we're going to continue from where we left off i know i think so it wasn't a long time ago but it just feels like so much has happened since march this year we're now in october almost november the seven months it feels like two years of everything that has happened during that time and uh you are working on some really incredible stuff state level corporate level and wallet level there are so many things

Starting point is 00:01:44 that you have your hands in so i'd love to like let's start with unpacking this maybe we'll start We talked last time about Aqua and the wallet, and it was just launching. Yeah. So how's it going? Yeah, we were meeting in March. We launched for maybe two months. Now we've got like 45,000 downloads and installs, and people really love it. And I think it's because it's one of the few wallets you can actually use to give someone a little bit of Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:02:13 So either your choice now is custodial. and then yes you can get someone a wallet and give them a dollar or you can use a non-custodial lightning wallet but then you have to open a channel to them or they have to open a channel first before you can send them a dollar but with aqua they can install it you can send them a dollar into liquid and it's over the lightning rails if you need to but then they can spend that and they can actually receive it and have it as a bearer asset and it's non-custodial i think that's why people are pushing it because they're actually using it to onboard new people that's what i do I just told Philip before that whenever I orange-pilled someone and they go,

Starting point is 00:02:50 so what do I do? How do I just download this Aqua and let's start? And then I pass that and they have it straight away. And then they ask me, the second thing that happens is they ask me, why do I have those two? And then it's my opportunity to explain the difference between layer one, layer two. So it's a really handy tool for onboarding people. Yeah, and I hope we keep making it better.

Starting point is 00:03:12 But the other interesting thing is we seem to have a large user base in Argentina and Brazil. And we're not sure why, but we just do. Without doing anything active on your site in those countries? It's all organic. All of this is organic. I mean, I've talked about it on a few podcasts briefly, but I don't think that's the reason. I think it's just organic and it's product market fit and people are just pushing it to their friends. But we're not sure why Argentina and Brazil, but we're going to run with it.

Starting point is 00:03:38 So we have an integration. Yes, why? It's not hard to guess why. It's just the value of the money and the hardship in terms of economics. So if it works for one person, obviously they would like their friends and family to be on board so they can use it as well. Yeah. But the next phase is doing more on and off ramps. So right now, Aqua has the swaps from Bitcoin to Layer 2 Bitcoin to Tether. And then we have transport rails for Tether to other chains. And then we have liquid and lightning transport. But now we want to focus on on and off ramps. So letting people cash out or buy Bitcoin with cash. Let's explain for my audience that don't know the terms, on and off ramps. Yeah, so on and off ramp, it's just how you get money into Bitcoin or into Tether. Yes. But you need a connection to some, be it gateway, like a bank potentially, or a payment provider, or another service provider. Yep.

Starting point is 00:04:30 So the interesting thing is we're working with Rossello. He was sitting to my left yesterday. Yes, from Brazil, right? Yes, from Brazil. We'll be able to integrate PixPay, which will let us have our users cash out to pay people in Brazilian reals directly from Bitcoin or Tether. Amazing, amazing. Yeah. So I think we're going to see 2025 as a very big year because we have that Brazilian one and we also have something in Mexico, which I can't reveal to you yet. But it's actually going to be very big. But the next phase is really just getting all these on and off ramps in Latin America.

Starting point is 00:05:04 And I think the utility level of the wallet will just go up 10x just because you can travel with it everywhere you want. That's exactly what I told Philip before. I told him my favorite use case is I just do an on-chain from my Bitcoin to Aqua, $500, $1,000. I then have it in Lightning and I travel and I don't need to carry anything with me. Yeah, well, it might be better than that too. So next year we're planning to integrate a debit card and VI ban in Europe. So if you have a European bank account, you can connect your European bank account through the VI ban, buy Bitcoin from that directly in the layer too.

Starting point is 00:05:40 So you don't even need the on-chain Bitcoin transaction. Super cool. Very cool. Okay, there's stuff to look forward to in the Aqua sphere. We have a user? Ralphie. Yeah, Ralphie is also a Bitcoiner and has an Aqua. Okay, wonderful.

Starting point is 00:05:55 So this is on the Aqua level. Anything else about that? You guys are, yeah, it's amazing that you... We're just plowing ahead. Word of mouth. This is really great. Okay, and then I saw you recently in Germany in the Bundestag. With Joanna, can you share what you were doing there?

Starting point is 00:06:14 Yeah, so there's an initiative in Germany called Bitcoin im Bundestag. And her goal is to really to get Bitcoiners in front of the politicians, MPs and other people to show that Bitcoin is not something you should be fearful of or hate. It's also an initiative where she's bringing German Bitcoiners into the parliament, too. because I think there's been this sort of separation where people don't feel it's their own government and they can't go there. But technically, they work for us and you should be able to go there.

Starting point is 00:06:44 Right, right. So it's a good initiative for both directions, bi-directional education and just bringing everyone together. So I went there. We planned this a long time ago and I think I'm the final session of their year. And hopefully there's more next year.

Starting point is 00:06:58 But I wrapped it up and talked to them about Bitcoin. They said normally there's not many questions, But I think we had like a 30, 40 minute question session after, which is very encouraging. And there are some MPs asking questions about Bitcoin. So it's whatever Joanna is doing, it's working, I think. And she's great. Excellent. You're the Voice is brought to you by Trezor, the original Bitcoin hardware wallet company pioneering the development of self-custody for crypto assets since 2013.

Starting point is 00:07:26 team empowering individuals with an open source device enabling beginners and experts to easily and securely hold their coins i find my treasure super easy to use and recommend it to my friends and family enjoy my five percent discount on treasure product by clicking the link in the show notes and using the code flat were they asking intelligent questions yeah yeah i would say so i saw you one of your slides was don't sell your bitcoin yes as they tried to do or did that recently well the saxony did it but you know from our perspective it's germany yes but i also added a slide for how much bitcoin they should have and i've been doing this in other places i've gone to i was in taiwan i was in japan and i create one slide it says how much bitcoin a

Starting point is 00:08:13 country should have based on their gold holdings so their tonnage of gold at the market value converted to bitcoin so like for example germany i think was 281 000 bitcoin and what's your ratio Is it like the same? Like the same amount of gold you have, you should have the same amount of Bitcoin? Okay. And the reason that I do that is then there's no really debate about what is Bitcoin and should you have Bitcoin? Because you're anchoring it to gold.

Starting point is 00:08:39 So if I tell you you should have 281,000 Bitcoin and you say, well, why? I'll say, well, you have a couple thousand tons of gold. Why do you have the gold? Right. You think about it yourself. Yeah, of course. If it's for safety, hedging, geopolitical de-risking. The ability to buy things that you need in times of conflict or propping up your currency.

Starting point is 00:09:01 Whatever reasons you have for the gold, it's the same exact reason. Interesting way of getting at it. And what about the mining argument? Because this is something you always talk about with states, right? Well, the problem with Germany is they have no energy because they shut down all their nuclear plants. So I had a section talking about why nuclear energy is important, why most green energy is kind of a scam. because thank you solar panels are made of coal yes and i you know i walked them through that process you know you take i want to listen to that is that recorded anywhere i think so okay

Starting point is 00:09:36 take a chunk of coal you take the quartz and then you melt it together and how do you melt it together you take another piece of coal to heat it in an arc furnace and then you know you get the silicon metal and you get carbon dioxide so solar panels are green once you have the final product yeah but not in the process how do you get to the final product and then where does the final product go after it's kind of toxic waste too right so i think nuclear is a better solution so i kind of tried to touch on that and the way joanna framed it was most of the mps don't want to go to the session they don't want to be affiliated with bitcoin so there's two things they do one is they send their delegates there okay and they they yeah they go listen them and

Starting point is 00:10:20 will educate me later because they don't want to be seen at the bitcoin thing with the you know evil bitcoiners like me oh my god yeah other thing is they watch the video later so i'm kind of preparing this presentation as a package of what i think is wrong and what can improve and be done better overall not just bitcoin but energy too yes okay wonderful so other countries other than germany that you visited lately if you can share or at least what is the trajectory of nation-state adoption i think it's heating up i was in it it was i wasn't gonna say it but i told joanna and she told it to the bundestag so but i was in thailand with michael okay yeah something is happening there i can't say exactly what but i i think it's gonna be good fingers crossed

Starting point is 00:11:14 I don't know if you're aware, but Thailand is super progressive on their CBDCs and digital ID infrastructure and the whole thing. and i was talking about yesterday in my talk and um you know whatever whatever we can get into thailand that is in parallel to that trajectory sorry trajectory would be a blessing because uh you know the population there they're starting with the low low income earners 50 million people that are going to be part of that project and it's just so needed that people will also have access to bitcoin yeah i mean we have to do something and i see our initiatives as a counterpoint to the push for cbdc's we can just complain and say oh that's bad it's not going to work but but if nobody engages to push something on the bitcoin side then they're they're just

Starting point is 00:12:06 going to run rampant with that initiative those types of initiatives but i feel like the work we do is valuable at least i think so it is it is so valuable we need it so much and that's why i always encourage people in the end of my annoying presentations about cbdc just you know be aware that that's happening and now your call to action is do something with bitcoin on board people orange bill you know reach out to politicians do something yeah so that we can at least experience a different reality where we don't have to be all surveilled and controlled in such a dystopian way Yeah, I think a lot of Bitcoiners like to say honey badgers don't care, but honey badger cannot care because we're kind of the armor, the thick fur that's insulating it, right? If the honey badger didn't have that thick fur, I'm pretty sure it would care.

Starting point is 00:12:59 A hundred percent. And, you know, it doesn't matter how much we think we are on a Bitcoin standard. Some of us, maybe some Bitcoiners are on Bitcoin standard. You live in a fiat reality. we are still in fiat life right at some extent depending where you live depending what kind of life you're leading so this is not going away this is just accelerating and if we don't do our part in accelerating the orange path then this is going to overtake at some point i hope it doesn't happen but it could so i think we need to be active and prepared about it so i yeah obviously i really like what you're doing what do you think about bautan recently and and what we've seen so my take on it is that they are mining bitcoin but they're trying to be a little

Starting point is 00:13:44 bit quiet about it which kind of is at odds because it's blacked it all over the media now because i think they still have some relations with the lenders like imf or whatnot but i think it's going to be hard for them not to present like yeah we got a billion dollars worth of bitcoin and we need a loan you know i don't think it's going to work well so i hope i can i have some connection there i want to reach out to them and engage with them to see if they can do bitcoin as legal tender so if anyone with relationship to bowtown is listening to this please reach out to samsung or to gen 3 um what about suriname uh suriname maya is running for president i think you you know her you spoke with her i wish her the best of luck and it sounds like her campaign is picking

Starting point is 00:14:30 up theme i hope so she's so courageous she's just amazing and are there any other countries that we should be paying attention to in the coming years or even states i think the u.s is doing some nice progress with all the different bills that are passing yeah the way i see it is a lot of people are just going to wait until the u.s does something and that the likelihood of the u.s doing something is obviously dependent on trump winning i don't know what your feelings are on Trump but you know I would take him over Kamala of course I would take him over Kamala I would probably not vote if I was there but still I would take him over yeah so Trump likes to check mark his promises like when he said he'll build a wall he didn't build a wall straight

Starting point is 00:15:16 across which was kind of implying he built a wall like you know part way so if he says he's going to create a bitcoin reserve treasury of 1 million bitcoin if he does a thousand ten thousand hundred a thousand that's still good so i think that will be a signal to the rest of the world that this is happening and i think the domino effect will start to kick off when they see the u.s actually making a move and i believe the u.s has to make a move because they're kind of back into a corner with the spiraling debt that there is no way to get out of the only way is to rebase the bitcoin and trump has hinted at it i don't know if he really understands it but he said we'll pay off the debt with a little bit of bitcoin did he say that in the speech we'll

Starting point is 00:15:58 give him a little bit of debt okay we'll give him a little bit of bitcoin pay the debt and i've been saying you should just rebase dollars to satoshi and say your debt is now repayable in sats uh-huh and you might think it's crazy but it's actually not it's so funny that you say that the other thing that trump was saying when i heard him during that speech is CBDC is not going to happen not on my watch, but I am going to promote an official stable coin

Starting point is 00:16:28 for the US. So what are your thoughts about national stable coins for countries? It depends how it's structured. I mean, if it is, you know, not centralized to one entity, but it's federated, it could be interesting where you can monitor the supply and

Starting point is 00:16:43 you can see the issuance and burn. There's probably no burn, but you can see the issuance, and you can verify for yourself. What do you mean, can CBDCs hold it on the blockchain, you mean? Yeah, if they do a national stablecoin. If they put transparency on it? I mean, there's no difference between a digital dollar and the dollar now, except for you could have more transparency.

Starting point is 00:17:03 It can only get better from the way it is right now, in my view. But I don't know if they'll do it the right way or if they'll build privacy in, just like the panel we spoke yesterday with Marcelo. You know, they rolled out a CBDC in which country was it? I forgot his example, but they didn't have any transparency. So when you transact with... In Brazil, he was giving the example of Brazil. Yeah, so you transact to your cousin,

Starting point is 00:17:25 and your cousin sees all your money. And they fail dismally because of that. Okay. So an idea is an idea. Implementation and execution are two other separate things. So we'll see what Trump does, if he does that. If it's Trump, if it's... I think it will be Trump.

Starting point is 00:17:41 I hope so, let's see. The devil's in the detail. And like I said yesterday in the panel, Most countries are not equipped to build a CBDC or even a stablecoin. You were referring mostly to the interoperability part of it. The fact that they will not be able to transact with other countries. But do you really think that they will not be able to put that together? Even if it takes them four, five, six years, they can build that, the interoperability part.

Starting point is 00:18:07 They need to open it at that point, right? But the key is how do you onboard someone to a CBDC? They have a project called Enbridge that does that, that creates the interoperability system between different central banks for wholesale CBDC. We'll see how it works because there are also data protection laws. At least there should be data protection laws. So would the central bank of one European country be okay that the data of their citizens is shared with, I don't know, Kazakhstan? let's see how they how they build it okay interoperability of closed systems is a very big problem this is why bitcoin fixed so many things i get it okay so you're saying that that

Starting point is 00:18:50 could be like a weak point that because of that weak point maybe they will fail not just that it's just there are so many complexities to rolling out complex systems you know it's complicated yeah And COVID is a perfect example of not thinking through the entire complexity and nuance and edge cases of how these things interact with one another. So COVID is a great example for everyone. Okay, let's do that. We want everyone to travel with their vaccine card or whatever. Who does that? It's the people at the ticket counter when they issue your boarding pass.

Starting point is 00:19:27 Show me the thing. How do they verify the thing? How do they verify your COVID vaccination card from another country? They have no idea. They'll look at it and think it's real, go, right? But you're also making the whole system more inefficient. So now those guys, their job was to just give you your boarding pass. Now you're making them into default kind of gatekeepers for COVID vaccination.

Starting point is 00:19:52 Yeah, they become police officers. Of some sort, right? That has knock-on effects, which makes the lines longer. people missed their flights because they couldn't board on time and now you have you know the whole thing get backlogged and it all breaks down so imagine that but they still did that well yeah and then it broke down yeah so you know this is why we're just saying it's not sustainable they can try i'm just saying it's more complicated than anyone that is rolling out a cbdc has an inkling of so you go to the airport in another country you know you want to change

Starting point is 00:20:25 your, I don't know, euros or dollars now. What do you have to do? Is it download their app? And then you have to KYC through the app? You know, your data is leaking all over the place too, and there's going to be a breach.

Starting point is 00:20:41 It's just going to be a nightmare for both of them. I so hope that all of these complexities are going to stop that train. I really hope so. It just looks like they want to tackle everything from the different documentation that I'm reading from central banks,

Starting point is 00:20:56 they're like thinking about it with detail right now. They're actually thinking about internet connection. They're thinking about that as well. So what happens if you go to the airport, you don't have data or the Wi-Fi breaks down because everyone needs to connect to the Wi-Fi to download the app. And now their app is not localized.

Starting point is 00:21:13 Or if it is localized, you don't understand how to do it. You need to call customer support. Are they going to provide customer support in 30 languages? Nothing's going to work. Good luck. Yeah, sure. I'm with you. You give me hope, but I really hope that that's what's going to happen. Because I just think that they're going for it all in, but I really hope that you're right.

Starting point is 00:21:34 They'll go for it all in, but it's not going to work. It's not going to work. They're going to fall on their faces. Let's hope so. To do this, maybe you might need to... They're pushing through the whole digital ID infrastructure in almost every country that I'm hearing about because they all want to get to a situation where they have everything digitized, your identity digitized. They can share the data

Starting point is 00:21:58 and they'll create some common framework. You know, they have all these fancy words to justify this. They'll be like a global database of identities and they'll be swapping around information. Good luck. Yeah. Good luck.

Starting point is 00:22:12 Let's see them do it. But like, you know... I'm playing devil's advocate, right? I obviously don't want it to happen. It's good to play devil's advocate. But you take all that complexity I just outlined, and that's not even the whole of it. Now you have to add another layer, which is the cost.

Starting point is 00:22:27 So in Canada, we had our COVID app called Arrive Can. Yeah. That costs like $58 million to build. And it's just an app where you punch in your information. Yeah. It's like a form. Yeah. That costs $58 million.

Starting point is 00:22:38 So let's just say maybe it should have cost $1 million. So that's really 58 times what it should cost. Now you imagine this global system that's going to interoperate Interoperate with everything, with all the necessary ways to onboard and verify and manage all this stuff. Multiply the cost of that by 58, you're looking at a trillion dollar, two trillion dollar project. Do they have money to do that? Especially if they don't have Bitcoin? Well, they'll continue inflating the fiat bubble.

Starting point is 00:23:10 You can't though. Yeah, no. So they'll never build it. I mean, they'll find an excuse maybe to print that, no? Yeah, but then they'll break the system and then we go hyper-Bitcoinization. Yay, then we win. Okay. One of the things that I bring to people's attention is that if they see a really big public resistance to CBDCs, they may do a simple marketing tactic and go, okay we'll create a national or commercial bank stable coin or you know they'll authorize commercial banks to issue different types of stable coins and we'll go this we listen to you

Starting point is 00:23:52 there's no more cbdc but now you get this stable coin instead which is also programmable and we're controlling it and you know yeah that's not going to happen either tether has won the battle for stable coin okay you look at all the new stable coins launching it's just you know they're doing in israel it's called bills they're doing it in nigeria it's called cngn they're doing it in australia problem is you can only do it for usd because like i said everything is the derivative of the dollar in some way you go down in the food chain far enough you find it's the derivative of a dollar so why would you want the lower food chain stable coin but if you want to fight on the dollar stable coin tether has won every dollar stable coin that's launched has just floundered

Starting point is 00:24:33 circle is in decline tether is one it's just like a common standard now in the entire world that you just use tether you can make something else and you'll have to anchor it to tether and swap tether provide liquidity for that swap but by and large there is no way to displace tether it has network effect correct for sure and then so let me ask you about tether so tether on the one hand is being used as a lifeline in a lot of emerging countries to really help people just get access to their daily needs right if they didn't have tether if they didn't have what they call the digital dollar they won't be able to really buy stuff or or even survive in some of these countries which is quite an amazing use case a brilliant product market fit right it happened

Starting point is 00:25:21 organically people found it they're now using it they're adopting it it's it's like fire how do you call it like fire exploding everywhere so that's that's great on the one hand on the other hand tether is buying treasury bills in order to create a treasury where they can then against it issue more of the stable point that they creating and that in an indirect way helps the u.s dollar to continue inflating the fiat bubble right to increase the debt the national debt of the country they will inflate anyways so it's not like tether is helping them to inflate they would inflate regardless the only thing is tether is creating demand for treasuries yes right so is that not a problematic thing in any way in your view well yeah i've heard that argument from some

Starting point is 00:26:12 bitcoiners on some podcasts saying tether is propping up the dollar i would not deny that tether isn't a valuable ally of the dollar because they're giving it utility, right? But you have to think of it from a free markets perspective. If it wasn't tether creating this thing, it would be someone else like Circle. So you have to understand that the void will be filled historically. If you build a time machine, you go back, someone will fill that void, right? If it wasn't tether, it'd be somebody else. And would they be Bitcoin friendly? And would they be building a Bitcoin treasury if you look at what we have right now circle isn't building a bitcoin treasury you know they're not even focused on helping the rest of the world they're focused on serving

Starting point is 00:26:56 the u.s so and and tether is yeah exactly so if you take into account that there will be a stable coin that will become dominant this is the best possible outcome that we could possibly have fine great i accept it and i think that we cannot really buy what's happening naturally in a free market and in the world but we can take advantage of that so like i was saying tether has built in roads for bitcoin actually yes you would you think you know bitcoin would have built in roads and we you know go tether through the bitcoin channels but it's not because people are seeking out the digital dollar they're not seeking out bitcoin and this is something bitcoin i don't fully understand yet but we do so we built aqua it's our advantage but they're seeking out a dollar

Starting point is 00:27:43 they don't even know what tether is they just want that digital dollar that is about a dollar right and then they don't have to worry about it they have other things to do they have a business they have children they have their own lives they shouldn't be worried about you know doing all these things like even you could look at it as uh investing your money in the stock market is a defect of the monetary system because why do you need to invest your money to not lose purchasing power? But back to that example, they just want the dollar and they know

Starting point is 00:28:14 Tether now and we can use that opportunity to introduce them to Bitcoin. That's why we have Aqua with your savings and your spending. So they will use Aqua because they're seeking the dollar and then they will learn about Bitcoin. Are we really close

Starting point is 00:28:30 to the next bull run? Are we already in it? How do you see yeah mr omega how do you see is this is this your omega watch it's always omega time how do you see us progressing in the in the trajectory of this cycle i always think we should have already crossed the hundred thousand and so what's happening then is it broken market suppression i don't know yeah but if you look at it the demand is far outpacing supply and sellers seem to be exhausted so i don't know where it's coming from i have a theory that it's paper bitcoin saturating the market etfs i don't know maybe more ftx style so we'll see what happens

Starting point is 00:29:16 but that cannot be kept up forever okay and i think the demand from etfs is sort of coiling the spring even tighter removing the mine supply and you have miners that are stopping selling and starting to be net buyers too because if they're public they should be able to issue debt to buy Bitcoin. So Omega is coming. First Godzilla, then Omega. 10k daily, 100k daily. You always make me so bullish, Samsung. I want to go buy. We'll see. It just seems inevitable that the system is so broken. The spring is coiled so tightly that I honestly wake up every day. I look at it. I'm expecting to see it going up 10k, 20k, 30k. And the hash rate is also at a very high rate, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:00 Unbelievable. Okay. What else? What can we expect from Samsung's little surprise box coming in the next year? I don't know. I don't know. You're working on so many projects. It's a surprise.

Starting point is 00:30:14 It's a surprise. There's always a surprise coming. You're like Mary Poppins. You open the bag and then you bring all that big stuff. There'll be something big in January next year. Okay. Okay. We'll see.

Starting point is 00:30:24 I want you to be in touch with me and let me know. Okay? okay Michael will leak it to you probably don't tell anyone I've got an insider you're a spy I'm a spy you have a spy inside Jan 3 so Michael is a friend of mine he works with Jan 3 he lives in Thailand he's a treasure he's such a great guy he does as people don't know every week on Tuesday afternoon a meetup in Koh Phangan so if you're in Koh Phangan if you're in Thailand and you plan to go there you should go to his meetups he has people sitting in a cafe and he just answers all the questions yeah no matter how beginner or advanced you are he will just sit there with you

Starting point is 00:31:04 until you understand everything and he helps people open wallets he's just amazing this guy and yeah he just volunteers from his time to do all that stuff so yeah such a great guy i hope to take him with me to australia next year there's a conference in march in sydney and i want him to meet some really great politicians and people there nice so hopefully we'll open some doors i hope that some of the politicians that i've been interviewing in australia like senator malcolm roberts which i planted the seed once let's see if he he agrees to have a meeting so yeah i'll try to um open some doors there great stuff cool and anything else you want to share before we finish up?

Starting point is 00:31:48 Can't think of anything. Okay. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of the show. I will.

You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 54: Samson Mow - Why CBDCs Will Fail & Bitcoin Wins

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