You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Ep. 81: Mark Moss - Own Bitcoin Before This $5 Trillion Liquidity Event

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

My guest today is Mark Moss, a serial entrepreneur, investor, and educator in Bitcoin and macroeconomics. He’s the founder of Market Disruptors and a partner at the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. In this episode, Mark explains why fiat currencies collapse through inflation over decades, not overnight, and how the U.S. is using tariffs and debt expansion to stay afloat. We dive into why the 60/40 portfolio is obsolete, how Bitcoin acts as a portfolio “cheat code,” and why investing in Bitcoin infrastructure is key to building the future. We also discuss personal branding as a tool for sovereignty in the digital age, and why owning your voice matters as much as owning your wealth. Above all, this is a conversation about hope, brought to life by Mark’s trademark optimism and his belief that we are stepping into a new era of innovation and prosperity.► This episode is part of the "Bitcoin Vegas 2025 Special" in collaboration with Ben Samocha, Founder of Israel’s CryptoJungle and Crypto Talks podcast.► If you got value, please like, comment, share, follow and support my work. Thank you!-- SPONSORS & AFFILIATES --►► Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn ►► Get 10% off on the Augmented NAC from ZeroSpike, with the code YCXKQDK2 via this link: https://store.augmentednac.com/?via=efrat (Note, this is not medical advice and you should consult your MD)►► Watch “New Totalitarian Order” conference with Prof. Mattias Desmet & Efrat - code EFRAT for 10% off: https://efenigson.gumroad.com/l/desmet_efrat ►► Get a second citizenship and a plan B to relocate to another country with Expat Money, leave your details for a follow up: https://expatmoney.com/efrat ►► Join me in any of these upcoming events: https://www.efrat.blog/p/upcoming-events -- EPISODES –00:00 Coming Up…01:18 Intro & Welcome02:45 Vegas, Fiat & Gambling Culture05:44 Meme Coins & Speculation06:13 The Changing Monetary Order10:33 Debt, Inflation & Policy Limits15:09 Tariffs & Economic Sovereignty19:19 Bitcoin vs Traditional Portfolios23:33 Institutional Bitcoin Adoption27:00 The $5T Liquidity Wave32:04 Debt Cycles & Liquidity Gaps34:20 Bitcoin Should Be In All Portfolios38:24 Personal Branding & Skills44:53 Building Local Bitcoin Circles49:26 Why Mark Doesn’t Spend Bitcoin50:24 Top Thinkers & Influences52:13 Message of Hope & Optimism-- LINKS –Mark’s Twitter: https://x.com/1MarkMoss Mark’s Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@1MarkMoss  Mark’s Website: https://www.1markmoss.com/Efrat's Twitter: https://twitter.com/efenigsonEfrat's Telegram: https://t.me/efenigsonBen's Twitter: https://x.com/bensamocha Ben's LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-samocha-728147153/ Watch/listen on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoiceSupport Efrat's work: ⁠https://www.buymeacoffee.com/efenigson   ⁠Support Efrat with Bitcoin: https://geyser.fund/project/efenigson

Hope is what gives us energy. So we need to be setting goals. Most people don't even do that. And then we have to have hope that we can achieve those goals. And that hope is the energy that drives us to achieve those things. Lenin had reportedly said to John Maynard Keynes, which is that the best way to destroy capitalism is by debauching the currency. So he said that if we can destroy the currency through inflation, all relation to value and money will be lost until Eventually, the best way to get rich will be through gambling and theft. Tariffs could provide enough protection and incentive to bring a lot of innovation to the world, AI and automations and things that are really important.

And I think it's going to lead to the greatest era of prosperity and wealth that the world's ever seen. Money is a byproduct of skills that I develop and relationships that I build. New skills times the relationship equal the money. When I look at the explosion and wealth of information that we have at our fingertips, and the combination of a global monetary asset that can't be debased, I see the greatest era of prosperity that we've ever seen, greater than the Renaissance. So I'm super, super bullish on that as well. Hello and welcome from Bitcoin Vegas 2025.

I'm Efrat with You're The Voice. And I'm Ben from CryptoTalks. And we're here today at a collaboration. We're going to interview a series of guests here in Vegas. And we'll introduce each one of them for you. And then we'll roll with the episodes. The episodes are going to be released on both Your The Voice and CryptoTalks. So make sure you're subscribed to both.

Our next guest is Mark Moss. Mark is a serial tech entrepreneur, VC investor, and one of the top Bitcoin tech and macroeconomics educators, founder of Market Disruptors and partner with the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. Enjoy this episode. Mark was, by the way, one of my first guests. So go back and watch my first episode with him from about two years ago. All right, Mark, thanks so much for agreeing to come and have a chat with us.

You have a very busy schedule here in Vegas. So thank you. My pleasure. My pleasure. Always love to catch up with you. And it's the second time we're doing this. Yeah. Second time you're on my podcast. Yeah.

Thank you. Ben Samoja, my friend. Ben, yeah. With Talking Crypto. So we're doing this on both podcasts. Great. Let's dive straight into the questions, all right? Let's do it.

All right. So we're in Vegas. Yeah. Sin City, where people gamble and play to earn more fiat. Quite a place to run a Bitcoin conference, right? Yeah. Yeah. But what does this contrast make you think about today's monetary system and people's participation in it? There's a lot there. First thing I'd say is as I was just walking through

the casino right now, I was looking at all those people playing slots and I'm just like, I sure hope they bought some Bitcoin. I know. But from a deeper level, and I told my wife, I'm like, I don't know what appeal they have to sit there and do this all day. She's like, they probably don't want to jump out of helicopters and snowboard and ride dirt bikes either. I'm mind. Okay. Anyway, but I think on a, on a bigger level, what it, what it really is, is it always reminds me of what, um, Lennon had reportedly said to John Maynard Keynes, which is that the best way to destroy capitalism is by debauching the currency. So he said that if we can destroy the currency through inflation, a series of inflation, all relation to value and money will

be lost. And then he said at the end, he said, until, until eventually the best way to get rich will be through gambling and theft. And so when you look at where we're at today, we're here in a city that's been built by gambling. You might say that most of politics is theft, right? I mean, the mob, right? So yes, right? So I think there's always been gambling and theft. I mean, that's just part of human nature, I think. But I think back to like what you asked, what does this really say about the nature of society right now? And that's what I think. And it's not just obviously in vegas for sure but it's gamble culture so it's i mean meme coins meme trading right it's um it's the get rich quick right it's the uh i can get rich with ai i don't have to build a real business

it's it's all of that and unfortunately that's as as lenin said right it's a it's a result of debouching of destroying a currency in a capitalist system yeah absolutely i think it also just shows that money today because of that has become in a way a tool to make more money instead of creating and transferring value and then therefore using it as money and that's a big piece and and that's one that sort of makes me a little sad for for the civilization and i think obviously it's a major detriment to civilization and if you look at other countries so around the world we have multiple currencies dozens of currencies in double digit or higher inflation right that's happening i'm guessing four or five currencies probably won't make it out of 2025 at the rate that we're on and

in those environments and you guys have traveled these countries they're all gambling they're all gambling because inflation is happening so fast it's like their only chance of getting ahead but to the point that you just made which is a really good one is that all of the trading all of the gambling so all these people now are trading stocks or all these people are trading crypto or trading meme coins or whatever to your point there's no value that's actually being created there right there's no problems that are being solved yeah they're just moving things up and they're extracting wealth by moving things but without adding anything and uh unfortunately it is pretty harmful it is it's also very connected to the changing monetary order right

so while we are seeing all around the world all this uh tariff war and uh currency collapses and And Scott Besant calling to reform Bretton Woods again and IMF, et cetera. Where do you think we're heading on that front? Like, where are we in the new monetary order and the changes around it? I think we're certainly in that. And it might be like another Lenin quote where he said, decades, nothing happens. And then days where decades seem to happen. And so we're certainly in that part where the decades are happening in sort of days.

And in regards to the monetary order, we're seeing that it happens on about an 80 year time frame. And so about 80 years ago is Bretton Woods to the point you brought up in 1944. And we have sort of this new monetary system being ushered in, in a number of ways. I don't know if what the Trump administration and the Scott Pesena are trying to do is as big as the Bretton Woods agreement. It might be a little bit more in line with sort of what the Plaza Accords was in 1985, which is sort of getting the countries to sort of re-peg back to the dollar and allowing

the dollar to devalue. but i would say we're probably more in like um when the dollar took over from the pound sterling in like the 30s and 40s that was about a 30-year process so i look at what we're going through as more of a process and not an event yeah so a lot of people here a lot of my friends a lot of people you're probably interviewing they want to tell you that the dollar's demise is imminent and that the system is going to collapse any day and it's really the gold bug message the gold the only way to really sell gold is to preach doom and gloom the robert kiyosaki message yeah peter schiff and harry dent and my friends here i don't want to put him throw anybody under the bus um but they try to

sell you this doom message of that the system is unsustainable it's all going to come collapsing down if you don't get in the life raft you're going to get you know swept by the tide etc And that is all true. I'm not dispelling that. But it's not an imminent event. It's a process that we're going through. And so just like when the dollar took over from the pound sterling, again, a 30 to 40-year process, we're in a 30 to 40-year process. And so the process that we're going through is that in a debt-based monetary system, which we're in since 1971, it's been pure fiat, it's always forced to expand through debt creation. That's just the mechanics of the system. I'll be doing a panel here with James Lavish, my partner at the Bitcoin Opportunity

Fund, and Lynn Alden. And we're going to be talking about the Triffin's Dilemma and part of that, which is that because of that, the dollar having this reserve status of the world, we're always forced to send dollars out to the world and then expense of our own industrial base. It's not exactly true, but in this fiat system, we're going to talk about in the panel, but in this fiat system, we have to continue to always expand the money supply. Now, some people in government, like Scott Bassett and Trump came in full of fire and vinegar. They're going to change the system. They're going to put the U.S. on a budget. Elon Musk came in with the Doge Act and they're going to get the, you know, get the fraud and waste out. Elon Musk is done. He's tapped out.

He realized that's not going to happen. And even Scott Bassett said, it was about two weeks ago, he said, the only hope we have is to grow our way out of this. So even them who came in maybe a little naive to government, thinking more like business people thought we can, we can, we can do this thing we can fix it and to be honest when i listened to their interviews in the early days i thought i thought they could uh but you see they're throwing in the towel like everybody else and that's because as lynn alden would say nothing stops this train the money supply has to inflate and because of that it just continues to devalue so back to this monetary system so being a process not event it has to continue to devalue so we're we've been seeing it and it's going to continue

um i just think it can last a lot longer than most people think you think decades yeah i think decades. And so, yes, we need to be jumping off of the ship. And for those of us that jump off earlier, we have an advantage. For those that jump off later, it's worse and worse and worse. And for those who don't even know what's going on, it's terrible. But again, it's not like you have 90 days or two years to prepare. It's not coming like that. You're the Voice is brought to you by Trezor, the original Bitcoin hardware wallet company pioneering the development of self-custody for crypto assets since 2013 empowering individuals with an open source device enabling beginners and experts to easily and securely hold their coins i find my treasure

super easy to use and recommend it to my friends and family enjoy my five percent discount on treasure product by clicking the link in the show notes and using the code flat i want to challenge you on the time frame for a bit, because I think that's what's different now is that in the 30s and 40s of the last century, we did have some kind of gold pegging, both in the UK and the US. While now we are purely on more than 50 years, like you said, a debt-based system. And the debt has become so large, both with households, corporates, and now governments are expanding their balance sheets substantially. We have come to a point where almost all the world is like our Argentina, where they have no other choice but to print, like to move to the actual delivering

money, helicopter money to the pockets of the people, as opposed to trying to go around with QE and all that, because the dispersion has become so large and wars and all this government spending just needs to increase. So that makes me more wary that it's not going to be a decades kind of thing, but more of, maybe not a year or two, but probably sooner. What's your take on that? Yeah, well, you're right. And so all the bond markets, the long bonds, the 30-year bonds around the world are all making new all-time highs. And we're, when the economy's kind of struggling, right, we've had a negative GDP print. So typically, you would see that happen when the economy's booming. But now all the bonds are making all-time highs. So basically, what that's

saying is that the world is seeing that this monetary system there's no end in sight to the printing that's what they're seeing and they understand they're going to get paid back with devalued dollars so you're right um from that perspective as far as will it lead to wars oh before i get to that so so yes you're right the world sees this and yes the governments have to keep printing money because the monetary system has to continue to expand a lot of these currencies won't make it and they'll switch over to the dollar standard and that's going to keep expanding as well um now will it lead to wars haven't we had wars since we were on the gold standard haven't we had wars since we have time is it really going to lead to more wars

it's leading to certainly economic wars and trade wars and things like that but it i don't think it has to lead to a hot war and again hot wars happen hot wars happen more over ideology i mean you guys are from israel yeah hot wars happen over ideology not money certainly money yes but like it's typically ideology more than anything. And so when you have clashing cultures and clashing ideologies, you have that, I think, more than money on that standpoint. Now, how long can it keep going for?

Well, it can keep going for a long time. I think that most people would rather, if you gave people the choice, would you rather lose half of your retirement savings, half of your home's value, half of everything, and have gas 10 or 20% cheaper? Or would you rather see all your investments and your assets go up and have gas 10% more expensive?

I think the answer is pretty obvious. And so it's also what the government needs to grow out of this, right? So the government can't grow out of it through deflation. So what I would say, you referenced the 30s and the 40s. We're not in the 30s and 40s anymore. We're nowhere like the 30s and 40s. And I think anybody who's pulling charts and graphs from the 1800s or the 1930s doesn't realize that we're in the age of AI and iPhones.

And so they need to update those models. today, a recession, if that's what we're talking about, like how long can they keep this going? Will the markets crash? I think is what you're asking. It's a policy decision. We have 120% debt to GDP, right? We're running $2 trillion deficits in the United States, but all the governments are running these deficits. So basically it's a policy decision if they don't want to continue to print that anymore. And what government's going to choose that none so the question is then how long can they keep it going before they're forced to relent i think is probably what you're getting at and it's the law of diminishing returns because what

happens is you're spending 50 cents to get a dollar worth of growth and eventually a dollar to get a dollar growth and eventually 50 cents to get a dollar a dollar debt to get 50 cents of growth and that's the law of diminishing returns um and i just think it can go on a lot longer than most people think and i think we can look at you mentioned venezuela or you mentioned i think you mentioned Argentina how long has Argentina gone on for and it just continues to muddle along like when did Argentina collapse because last I checked it still hasn't yeah and that's not even the reserve currency of the world nor do they have the industry and the innovation that we have in the United States and so we could certainly go on longer than they could and they still haven't

collapsed yeah refreshing perspective you've suggested that tariffs are being used strategically to manage national debt yields can you explain this perspective its potential impact on the economy tariffs to manage debt yields um well the the tariffs are a tool to do a whole lot of economic um policies some of which is to manage trade but i don't think that's the real thing that they're doing because of course the united states doesn't want to make t-shirts and sneakers like we don't want to bring that back from vietnam factories of a hundred years ago with like Trump and Musk sitting there in a factory? No, I didn't see that. But what tariffs are used for is several things. They're a tool. One of which is to help protect industries and get them

going again. So for example, Taiwan hasn't always made microchips. That's new. They decided as a policy decision, we should move into making microchips and not do they make the best ones in the world. And so we know that there are some sectors that we need to have in the United States that are important for Americans' welfare, important for national security. And at the rate that we're at, without some sort of protectionism, they can't get going fast enough. And so one of which is we need to bring a lot of industries back, not to give people jobs in sweatshops making t-shirts, but strategic things we need in the U.S., number one. A lot of those would have to do with things that the military might need also medicines things like that

medical equipment we saw a massive problem with that in the in the covid pandemic but also strategic things such as our minerals so we need steel and we need copper we need rare earth elements we need those here the united states is the second largest producer of rare earth elements in the world which is used for all types of electronics but also missiles and a lot of weapon systems things like that but the u.s while we're the second largest we can't make near enough for what we need. So yes, we make them, but we're not, we're still dependent on China for that. And so a lot of that is what's happened to the U.S. by sort of hamstringing ourselves with EPA regulations and just all types of onerous regulations that have to be followed.

And so we've sort of hollowed that out. And so a lot of the tariffs brings those back by making it a little bit more expensive. All of a sudden we can spend the money to bring it here. It becomes a good investment. So that's what I'm looking at the tariffs for. And I think it's a big misconception that people have that number one nobody will want to trade to the U.S. anymore and number two it makes things more expensive and three like the U.S. can't be competitive in that way as a business person it's pretty easy to understand that when I make a product labor is only maybe one of 20 inputs that goes into making the product absolutely even the iPhone Trump talked about making the iPhone in the U.S. can we make them cheaper than China or cheaper

than India? Well, labor makes up less than 3% of the cost of the iPhone. So you take that the labor from $5 to $20, but it's only 3%. What does that increase the cost $10 of an iPhone? Does anybody care? But then it also takes into account or doesn't take into account efficiency. So if a $20 an hour person could do the same work as a, let's say, let's say it takes a $5 an hour worker four hours, but a $20 worker could do it in one hour. Labor cost is the same. Yeah. And then what about if i add ai and automation to it because it's really all about efficiency you see the china the way china works out the perfect story was uh milton friedman visited china and he went there and he saw all these people digging i think it was a dam and they're digging with shovels

and he's like what are all these people doing digging with shovels like get get a tractor out here and they said ah but we need to keep them working he said well if that's the case then just give them spoons it's not about keeping people busy it's about efficiency that's capitalism because we should be working on higher and higher and higher value things back to bringing value to the world and so these tariffs could provide enough protection and incentive to start rebuilding some of these key things here could bring a lot of innovation to the world ai and automations and things that are really important and i think it's going to lead to the greatest era of prosperity and wealth that the world's ever seen i'm super bullish and that's why with all these doomers i

couldn't disagree with them more. Amen. So we talked about how the world is changing and a lot of things are also happening with investment allocation, right? So we have the traditional 60-40 portfolio, which has been hammered by the recent changes and we're seeing all these correlations changing. And that brings us to ask you, what are the modern asset allocations that people need to take into account when they want to invest yeah which brings us back to the previous question you asked about the bond yields that are screaming to all-time highs and it being this imminent collapse and whatnot and i think a couple things like number one i say often because we're in this technological revolution i talk about that the future is not evenly distributed so some of us

see things earlier than others and we get that advantage the first mover advantage and so certainly we see asset price or i should specifically the bond prices are screaming all-time highs as i said that signals that the world is basically not trusting that monetary system anymore one of the reasons why it can continue for a lot longer is because bitcoin is here so a lot of people think that bitcoin specifically will come destroy that because it'll suck all the wind everyone will put all their money into that the us dollar will collapse but what if bitcoin actually preserved the us dollar you see the us dollar has two main functions right certainly there's the us there's the store of value function that's not fiat but in treasuries

And then there's the currency piece, the medium of exchange piece, right? And so most people, I think there was a meme Michael Saylor said, for people that save their wealth in dollars, we have a word for them. We call them poor. Like most people at this point know they shouldn't be saving in fiat. I mean, come on. Like even we talked earlier before we started recording all the people that are never going to make it. Even they know they shouldn't be saving in fiat. Even they know.

At least they know enough to have a little bit of their paycheck taken out and go into like their mutual funds or whatever, right? So it's like, I don't see that changing that system. Like we can still spend the dollars, but we just need to be saving in something else, right? Then the question is, what are we saving in? And so to the point that you brought up with the 60-40 portfolio, that's been the mantra, that's been the bread and butter of every financial advisor.

Financial advisors are very, dare I say, lazy. Dare I say that they've been taught in an industrial era school system and given a set of industrial era tools for a world that we're no longer in today. That's the problem. Programming. And they're pre-programmed.

We're talking about the pre-programmed track most people are going on. So they have to unlearn what they've learned and then go out to seek a new system, and that's super difficult. But we know, of course, we're here talking about Bitcoin at the Bitcoin conference, and I call it the cheat code. I'm not the only one calling it the cheat code,

but it's the cheat code because you could literally just buy Bitcoin and outperform every complex fund every complex strategy and just just buy the one thing and by adding a little bit of it to your portfolio then you then you can outperform it and so while we're seeing the the shift out of i don't want to say the end because it's not imminent but the end the the rotation out of long-held store value assets like u.s treasuries um we're rotating to something else what are we going to rotate into well central banks are buying more gold than any time in history so we know central banks are seeing that um and then we see the rise of bitcoin not just you and i who have

been talking about this for years like a bunch of psychopaths but now it's a full-blown institutional frenzy yeah right and when i say institutional i mean both from uh from a publicly traded bitcoin standpoint but as well as all the etfs that have popped up all over wall street and just last week charles schwab which is one of the largest financial advisory firms in the united states had a big meeting my sister-in-law is a is a vice president there financial advisor and of course we have a lot of fun in our our family get-togethers and uh because i don't agree with any of that but uh you know she said forever that even if a client asked her about bitcoin she wasn't allowed to have that discussion and so just about two weeks ago they decided to change that policy

they capitulated right and they had a big conference and they said okay we're gonna to have a whole strategy. And that came out over social media this week now, finally. And so that's what I mean by this institutional frenzy for it. And then we have the sovereign frenzy. And so certainly there's the central banks buying gold. I think it's up, you know, 25% the last couple years. But then we have Bitcoin as well. And that's the rotation out. And so people need to save themselves. How do they do it? I mean, Bitcoin is just the cheat code. For sure. And with With Charles Schwab, it also brings in the famous saying that is attributed to Gandhi, but nobody knows if it's true. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then they capitulate.

Yeah, then they join you. Yeah, we still have Vanguard. Vanguard is also a big one. They're still sitting this market out, you know. What did Jamie Dimon just said? I don't like Bitcoin, but I will not prevent you from playing with your Bitcoin. Is that what he said? Just now, recently. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, originally he had said that if anybody at JPMorgan, he would fire them. If anybody he found out at JPMorgan even did, he would fire them. It's time for him as well. You know, and I put this tweet out, I don't know, a few weeks ago. And I was like, Larry Fink, largest asset manager in the world, says buy Bitcoin. Ray Dalio, largest fund manager in the world, says buy Bitcoin. President Trump, the leader of the free world, you should buy Bitcoin.

Your cousin. Oh, that's a scam. Come on, man. Tired of feeling like your freedom and future are fading away? Do you live in a country with growing inflation, crazy housing prices, weird culture and a chaotic economy? You're not alone and my friend Mikel Thorpe and his team at Expat Money can help. Mikel is the world's leading expat consultant on a mission to free you from broken systems. He's been an expat for 25 years, lived in nine different countries and has helped hundreds of people with second residencies and

passports offshore banking international investing and many other essential tools if you're serious about protecting your wealth and your family it's not enough to hope things will get better you need a plan b in another country the team at expat money can help you build it legally safely and without wasting years of research visit expatmoney.com slash a flat and leave your details for a follow-up in a world hypnotized and sleepwalking towards totalitarian control and digital enforcement awakened voices rise to inspire change and radiate hope in december 2024 i had the honor of hosting professor matthias desmet at a conference i produced called new totalitarian order this master class is now recorded and available to

watch the conference explores the psychology behind global mass processes offering a behind the scenes look at science economics and human potential it addresses challenging global agendas mass formation transhumanism consciousness societal change and the path to transformation click the link in the show notes to access three and a half hours of exclusive presentations in-depth content and my fireside chat with professor desmond use my code a flat for 10 off i hope you find great value in it The last video of yours I've seen, you mentioned the $5 trillion liquidity event that would boost Bitcoin and stocks. Can you elaborate on the macroeconomics forces behind the prediction?

Yeah, I'd love to. I think everyone's trying to time the market, which don't do it. If anybody could do it, they'd be the richest person in history. They can't. We know tops and bottoms only when we look backwards. Now, we can tell when things are expensive or cheap. We can do that. But what we want to do, though, is we want to be looking at leading indicators.

So if we understand the mechanics, like why does Bitcoin go up in the first place? Well, it's because we have expanding value. Money supply goes up, pushes asset prices up. We're also creating more value, building more buildings, building more inventions. And as that goes up, then it has to go somewhere to be stored. There's liquidity sponges. So people store their wealth in equities or bonds or real estate or gold or whatever. And now Bitcoin is a new asset, and it's the best performing asset that we have.

And so when we understand those mechanics, when the money supply goes up, asset prices go up. They don't all go up equally. They have different what we call sensitivity ratios. So then you'd go, okay, well, if I can look at the global money supply, if I could look at the global liquidity. So the money supply sort of looks at like M2, and that's like the total amount of money we have in the world. Most people look at US M2, then there's like global M2. but a better indicator is actually like total global liquidity now a lot of people know what exactly what that is there's three different people that i follow for this because they make

their own baskets yep there's no steadfast rule of what um that what this is but it's basically not just the amount of money it's the ability to create money because money is created through debt issuance right so we'll look at like lending reports bank regulations things like that so we can see how much money could be created. And so I look at Michael Howell. He's the originator of this chart. He's the goat when it comes to global equity. Nick Badia, my good friends over the Bitcoin layer,

they have their own. They're very open of how they've made their baskets. Very good. Real Vision has one that's also really good. And again, you could just look at Global M2 and it gets you roughly there. You could look at like the Fed because the dollar drives everything.

You could look at like a Fed balance sheet minus like RRP, for example, but this global liquidity. And so then we understand that when that goes up as a leading indicator, then asset prices will go up after that. We know that through decades of data, it typically happens on a lag. Obviously money doesn't get printed

and find its way to Bitcoin in 30 seconds. And so it's debated how long the lag is. It's debated between eight to 12 weeks. So let's just call it 90 days. Three months, more or less. Three months, more or less, right? And so what happens is you can see, like, for example, in Q4 of last year, asset prices were making new all-time highs. So Trump had just gotten elected.

Asset prices were just making new all-time highs. But as that was happening, global liquidity was draining. We get into Q1 of this year, of 2025, and all of a sudden, asset prices, S&P, Bitcoin, everything starts tumbling, even though liquidity was going up. And that's because of a lag. So if you were watching last quarter of last year, you would know that the first quarter of this year was going to be rough. And when you look at what happened the first quarter of this year, you go, well, the second quarter of this year should be really good. And that's the $5 trillion number. What Michael Howell does is he actually reports the global liquidity as a number, like the total dollar amount.

And I think it was, whatever, $175 trillion or $179 trillion. And so you can see each month the liquidity rising, rising, rising, rising. And that's that $5 trillion I was talking about. That's now coming over into global assets. I'll add to that that the liquidity is not just the new money created, but it's also the new money meant to serve and refinance previous debts. Sure. So the more the debt system is large,

the more money we need to create in order to refinance previous debts and the interest rate, which is why it's constantly growing like that. And that's a very important piece that we need to hit on. So what happens is you have all this debt. So debt never gets paid. Remember, we talked about that earlier because we're a debt based monetary system. It has to always expand.

So debt never gets paid. It gets rolled to your point, right? And we have debt maturities from six months up to 30 years, right? Now they want to do 50 year bonds or whatever, 100 year bonds, who knows? But zero to 50 years. Now, if your bank, you have debt right on a credit card, your car loan, whatever. If your bank called you up and said, Hey, we'll refinance you to zero. Would you take it?

Of course. Right. And so what happens is this is very, very interesting phenomenon. You know what a metronome is? That keeps perfect time for music, right? So you can set the time period and it keeps perfect time. But if I put like 100 on this table right here and I started them all at different times, they all get synchronized.

It's like this weird phenomenon, how the table starts shifting and they all sync up. Anyway, so you have all this debt around the world. Everyone in the world has debt. Lots of different debt and lots of different maturities. What happened is in 2008, when we had the great financial crash, in order to save the world and save the global financial system, what did they do? they dropped rates to zero. And what do you think everybody did? They refinanced. So we had all this debt maturity that got synced up into one point. Now, when you look at the debt maturity of the

world, about 75% of global debt is between a three to five year maturity. Call it four years. Now, let's think about this. Starting four years from 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024. Does that sound it does sound familiar let's see that just so happens to be the bitcoin having cycle it just so happens to be the u.s presidential cycle just so happens to be like the four-year business ism cycle and all these different things and so it's an important point because what happens is about year three the debt needs to be rolled over yeah but there's not enough liquidity to the point that you brought up not enough liquidity to roll that debt over and so we get into these liquidity pockets where there's not enough money the economy starts sputtering yeah yeah and then we get the

next injection and then back off to the races for another you know and you can connect that too with uh with 2011 being the east the european uh problems the first death crisis and the second one sorry then 2015 you had the greek crisis in portugal 2019 the repo one before right before kovid yep so it's like the end of the liquidity is making everything go bust and showing all the the problems. Yeah. It's interesting. And who knows how long it goes for? I mean, cycles go until they're broken. Michael Howell, back to the goat, he was sort of predicting sort of an end by the end of this year. Now he's saying with sort of all the turmoil that we've had and this problem is going on in China and tariffs and whatnot, he's pushing it out well into 2026 at

this point now. So the answer is we don't know. But what we do have is we have leading indicators to look at and so it's important to watch those amazing okay let's switch the conversation a bit uh the three of us are in a way entrepreneurs doing our own thing media investments etc and we are all bitcoiners in our blood and spirit and we understand truly what it means for the world if other people adopt it um what role do you think bitcoin should play in today's portfolio for individuals, for corporations, and for countries, given everything we've talked about so far? Yeah, that's a great question. So number one, obviously, it needs to be in the portfolio. That's just a no-brainer. Buy $1 worth, buy $5 worth, put some skin in the game. That'll at

least get your mind in the game, and you'll start understanding it. What role should it play in the portfolio? It depends, right? Because there's levels to this game. So I see a lot of people on Twitter, and they're like, sell your chairs. Go all in on Bitcoin kind of a thing. And sure, when you have, you know, a thousand bucks, like go all in, right? If you have a hundred million, it's, it's a little bit different, right? And so you have to understand there's like levels to this game. I have a Bitcoin venture capital fund, the Bitcoin opportunity fund. And so we invest into Bitcoin companies that are building on and around the Bitcoin ecosystem. I believe that we should build the world that we want. I believe in this better world that's powered by Bitcoin. And I

want to help bring that world to fruition. And so I know that it's important to, for these companies to get built otherwise how will this world develop and so for me i want to buy the bitcoin sure um but then i also want to deploy some of that bitcoin to get that world built and a lot of people a lot of bitcoiners like why would you do that just buy bitcoin sure but like how does that world get built that you want like if you're the hardcore bitcorner why would you put some of that there now we do it as a in the fund and our goal is obviously to make more money than what bitcoin goes up by but i i wanted to say real quickly though because especially for your audience like sometimes the world gets built let me rephrase that

most of the good in the world that happens is through self-sacrifice right i mean how much have you sacrificed to go and do what you've done over the last couple years right um it's really the really the example that jesus laid which has sort of led to this judeo-christian world that we're in today a lot of the world doesn't have a culture of self-sacrifice. In the United States, at 4 a.m. when the power goes out, why does the guy get in his truck and go fix that thing in the storm? And that's this world that we're in. And so I would say that what I try to tell Bitcoiners is like, look, if you're not going to build this world, who is? And so even if some of that money were sacrificed, even if some of that money didn't

get the highest return, would it be worth it? So that being said, the goal is to get higher. So I would say, number one, buy Bitcoin. And that should make the bulk of your portfolio. Above that, then what could I do with smaller percentages of my portfolio to get even more gains? So some might say, well, could I put in my normal stock portfolio, could I put 10% to Bitcoin to get my total portfolio up? And yes, of course you could. I run all my numbers based off of what Bitcoin's appreciation rate is. That's my hurdle rate. So it's going up by about 50% a year. So unless something can go up by more than 50% a year, I'm not really interested in it. And so that's my hurdle rate. So for me, I want Bitcoin, and then I want allocations above it

that I think can beat that. So certainly buy Bitcoin. And once you have enough of that, the most exciting area that we're really playing in right now is these Bitcoin treasury companies. The public companies. The public companies. And so this is the new altcoin explosion, right? Yeah. And I mean that in a good way, not in a bad way. Altcoins were rug pulls and scams. This is like companies that are buying Bitcoin and helping to bring this company, this sort of world to adoption. But we're seeing the altcoin type returns happening. We're seeing two, three,

500% in weeks happening. So there's a lot of excitement here. So I think certainly, and this is MicroStrategy, this is MetaPlanet. I'm here at the Bitcoin conference. They've rolled into a public company now called Nakamoto. They're doing it, et cetera. And so I think certainly the bulk of it should be in Bitcoin. Some percentage of it should be into these types of companies if you're really trying to help that grow. And it's not just chasing number go up. These companies are buying Bitcoin. And then some money should be allocated to building the world out. And so we have a venture fund doing that. There's several others that are here that you can go find as well. And then those can get you even more returns as well. So that's sort of how I

think about allocating to it. I want to ask you about personal branding. It's a topic that both you and I preach and teach and believe in. Why do you find it a necessary tool these days? And also, what are some other top skills that you think young people today should harness in the age of AI and Bitcoin that we live in? Yeah. I don't really teach personal branding. I want to. Well, you do without knowing. I should. You do. Because you are walking the talk. This is, I mean, your brand is very strong. Yeah, it's been getting strong. And, of course, I take it serious.

And so, I mean, I have a full-blown studio and staff and the whole thing, but I haven't been taking it near serious enough. Like, we're going really big right now. I'll probably be adding another 10 people to my team. Like, we're probably going to triple, quadruple the team. So, anyway, if you're looking to join a media team, hit me up. Just because it's so powerful. It's, like, the most powerful thing.

What I would say is, specifically, here we are in Vegas. um we've got to be at a couple events together we've got to build a friendship together it's amazing um ben you know we just got to meet but what i tell people and i actually tweeted this before posted on x uh about this event i said a lot of people didn't come because it's too expensive or they've heard this information before but they don't realize that it's all about relationships and so what what the young people have it wrong and actually most people have it wrong is that we don't chase money money as a byproduct yeah money is a byproduct of skills that i develop and relationships that i build and so we come to these events to build relationships and skills so

i'm learning new things that i could use so for example when i was in abu dhabi speaking in december i learned about some new areas in bitcoin and how bitcoin was coming to finance and i went home and immediately applied those and i used my relationships that i had in the industry and i quickly made a bunch of deals new skills times the relationships equaled the money and so um coming to events sure but then back to the personal brand the personal brand creates all these opportunities and i'd say it's important for a couple reasons one reason and i try to tell everybody every single day a non-negotiable you should have is to read something and put it back out into the world even if you wrote it in your own journal yeah but but put it on facebook or

Instagram or Twitter, whatever it is, or even in your own journal. And because what happens is there's three levels of learning, right? So I can receive the information, I can apply the information, and then I have to teach the information. And how many times we've all done it, we hear something, we're like, oh my gosh, that's so good. And you try to tell somebody, and it just doesn't come out the right way, right? Because we have to be able to organize those thoughts, and we have to be able to develop our own. And that's what putting it back out there does. It holds you accountable. Absolutely. It makes you scrutinize your own work. How many times do I fact check stuff before I put it out there? So I just think, man, it's just such an

important tool. And the last thing I'll say just real quickly is that whether you want to build a personal brand or you want to be an influencer or whatever you want to call it, it's not about that anymore. We are all responsible for telling the world who we are or somebody else will. Here's a quick story, if I have time. I'm an OG, man. I started an internet business in 1999. I'm in Southern California. I was young. I didn't know what I was doing. We started this internet business, raised some money. The dot-com bubble blew up. 2001, I started an e-commerce business, blew that up, had a Fortune 500 exit, built a medical tech company, sold that off, doing really good, been in the internet for a long time. Then I spent eight years doing lead generation,

generating leads for companies, but I never built up like a list. I wasn't known. I was like a nobody, right? I knew all about online marketing and how to build websites and all of that, but I was nobody. Like I said, no list, no nothing. And what happened was in 2008, I was doing lead gen for financial service companies um attorneys mortgage companies tax debt companies whatever and i generated a lead for this law firm and uh a customer was unhappy with whatever and the law firm refunded it was like 700 bucks refunded their money whatever but it wasn't good enough for this guy he was like some professor or whatever some like smart guy and i wasn't smart enough to know what i was doing and so he went on to like whois.net and saw the website that generated the

lead was owned by me and then he reverse looked up all the websites that i had i had all these these lead gen websites and um just put me on blast and went on to whatever rip off report and spam whatever they are back then right like all these like scam alerts or whatever and said mark moss he has all these websites he generates these leads blah blah blew me up yeah and it was devastating like all my friends are like mark what's this what do we see in here like here's some scammer like what's going on and it's because he was the only one that ever told the world who i was you didn't build your own his his thing that he wrote up as wrong as was was the only thing about me yeah there was nothing else and it was on the page of everything yeah he got to tell the

world who i was not me today good luck try that you'll be on page 15 or 20 and so what i'd say is it's not even about a personal brand if you meet somebody here or your friend invites you to dinner you're going to meet someone they're going to go look you up and you should be ready to tell that person who you are. Exactly. A hundred percent. And one of the things that I have taught just a few weeks ago when I did my recent personal branding class is that your reputation is one of the most important things you have. And as you said, if you don't take care of it, someone else will do a bad job for you and then you're screwed. If I see Bitcoin as a hedge to my finances, I see personal branding as a hedge to my security and my reputation.

It is a tool for sovereignty, because if they cannot hurt me financially, they will try to hurt my reputation. But if I have a good personal brand, it will be very hard to ridicule or, you know, shake up my reputation. So that is, if you look at it that way, it becomes a very smart tool to have. But you do need to do the work in order to build your own brand. I totally align with what you're saying. I think it's worth it. It's a lot of work, but it's certainly worth it. And it's online reputation management too.

So you can also hire an agency like, I don't know, some WEF leaders or whatever to say we are building the world back better. What we just talked about in terms of personal branding really narrows down to affecting our own communities. So Bitcoin is about decentralization. Bitcoin is about taking responsibility. And what we see when companies start buying Bitcoin, for example, and adopting this Bitcoin treasury is that we see individuals starting to lead processes from the micro level to the macro level. right um when it comes to like what people can do in their own communities municipalities like making bitcoin more regional what would be your takes on that point how can people with their personal brand as well uh participate in bitcoin more than just acquiring it or potentially investing in bitcoin companies well here's a here's a here's an answer that you might not be looking for might not want but um part of it goes back to we i think we were before we

recording we were talking about the small percentage of people that will make it and uh i don't know i've been making content for over eight years now i think at this point and of course i make the content to reach the people yeah right but when it comes to like locally or regionally that you're asking about um the question that is often discussed in these circles is how do we orange peel more people how do we get more people into bitcoin and maybe one of the last messages satoshi left for us was if you don't understand it i'm sorry i don't have time for you i also think about jesus uh all the all the teachings he did he would always talk in parables and he'd be like it's sort of like a farmer walking down a path and he throws out some seed and the birds

get some of it and the disciples are like why why do you talk like that he's like let those who have ears hear and so you know i have like a little bit of a different take i mean and it's weird because i reach millions of people a month with my content talking about it but i'm talking about a problem and a solution if they have ears let them hear but like in a local environment like i'm not gonna go try to like orange pill somebody i think about it from like a sales perspective which is that people are selfish they have a problem and if i could introduce a solution to solve their problem then then there's something there if i could meet them where they're at but most people they don't have problems they're not trying to solve problems and so mostly

bitcoin just doesn't come up um so i'm not you know i know people who are trying to get merchants to adopt it and that's great do your thing um for me i don't do that uh one thing i do occasionally is i do host some meetups but that's more like getting the bitcoiners to come in yeah um so that's kind of creating some community between them uh one thing i'm just starting up right now is i'm starting a youth program so i'm going to do um 15 to 20 year olds i'm going to do like a once a month where they can come in and learn business they can learn investing they can learn money obviously about bitcoin as well so i'm going to start that where they're still young enough i think where i can sort of help them not like we talked about the

matrix where they're too old at that point um so those are a couple things that i'm doing personally i think you know to each their own like the world needs all of us doing it yes the other thing i would say is um and this is this is maybe even more contrarian take some people don't like this um Um, Gresham's law, good money drives out bad. And so, you know, I don't want to spend my Bitcoin to buy Starbucks coffee. I don't want to do that in the United States. You know, we have quarters and dimes, our change, right? Our coins and up to 1965, they were made with pure silver. And, um, there's no pre 65 quarters and dimes in circulation anymore. You can't find them. And even if you happen to, you wouldn't spend it because it's worth several dollars now. So you're going to

save that what but gold bugs they buy gold bars and gold coins because they and and one thing they buy is it's called junk silver so it's a bag of dimes and quarters that are pure silver and the reason why gold bugs buy those instead of silver bars is because they believe in this world where like everything collapses and they're going to need the small denominations for bartering so what are they saying what they're saying is there's a world where only this could be used as money. So then I will use it as money. But until then, we'll use the fiat system. And so with Bitcoin, it's the same way. Now, if I wanted to send a woman in Afghanistan some money to save her life, of course, I'll send Bitcoin. I can't send her fiat. Or somebody in North Korea, of

course, I'll send Bitcoin. So there's certainly use cases for it. But I'm not going to get my coffee shop down the street to try to take it. I'm not going to spend it that way. You'll prefer to basically be on credit then, like to take a Bitcoin-backed loan, spend fiat and not waste your bitcoin yeah spend the fiat yeah use it for what it needs to be like i said if i could save someone's life in north korea afghanistan for sure but my coffee at the donut shop like i don't need donuts but you know what's it called shake uh steak and shake yeah yeah all right we're getting to the end go there and spend some sats though just to do it Of course. It's fun. We're getting to the end of our hour. Okay. So you did mention a few names

of people that you are inspired by lending some information from using their resources in order to build on your work on top of theirs. Which other concepts or guests stuck with you, helped you formulate your own narrative or opinions which people do you recommend to well i love what you said to formulate your own opinions so that's that's a really key piece and so we have too many people that receive information and parrot it back out but don't really think about it so like breaking it down to like a first principles level what does this really mean and and sort of like wrestling with the idea i like to think of it that way um i'm having a panel here i think i said it with James Lavish and Lynn Alden, and we're talking about Triven's Dilemma. And while

I was driving in traffic the other day, I was on voice mode with Grok and I was using the reasoning model and I was just going back and forth. But what about Triven's Dilemma? This is true, but why is this? And so wrestle with those things. Now, to answer the question, the people that I, off the top of my head, there's so many, probably the ones I align the most with, Lynn Alden, for sure. She's super, super smart. Luke Grauman. Luke Grauman is someone I've known for years. I follow all his work. I mentioned Nick Boddy at the Bitcoin Lair. Those guys are amazing. So I read their work. Michael Howell, I read his work. The Bitcoiners are going to hate me for this, but I think Real Vision and Raoul Paul put out really good work. I do not agree

with any of his stuff on NFTs and art, any of that. But his macro takes, I think, are really good. I agree with that. See, those are ones that sort of stand out to me off the top of my head. I mean, and there's obviously there's different disciplines for different things. I mean, I'm just thinking more sort of macro, big picture, James Lavish, my partner at the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. He does amazing work. Boy, I'm probably leaving out so many that I sort of look to on a regular basis. But those are probably the ones that I can think off the top of my head that sort of like, they're kind of my go-tos. Yes. I read them pretty much on a regular basis. Yeah. There's a, there's a wealth of knowledge out there, but yeah, those put out really good

work, I think. Beautiful. And let's end on a message of hope. What gives you hope? Where do you draw your hope from? Yeah. I think ultimately only hope matters, right? Hope is what gives us energy. So we need to be setting goals. Most people don't even do that. And then we have to have hope that we can achieve those goals and that hope is the energy that drives us to achieve those things um if you're the glass half empty kind of guy you'll never start the business yeah you'll never ask the girl out you'll never invest your money because you'll never venture anything like unless you have an optimistic frame and so you know i guess maybe just being a an entrepreneur my whole life has uh has led to that um maybe because i believe in god and i believe in where

where we're going eventually. So I have that foundation as well, but I think it's just, I learned early on and I think it was Robert Kiyosaki. I think it was Robert Kiyosaki. It might've been Napoleon Hill, but they said, whenever you speak about the future lie, because everything about the future is a lie. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. I can say, I'll meet you tomorrow. How do I know I'll meet you tomorrow? So everything we say about tomorrow always a lie right unknown so why not lie positively beautiful and so i've always just carried that uh yeah you're not going to get ahead being negative i love it awesome that being said yep that being said i'll end it by saying that's the hopium that's the feel-good feelings

but i believe from a macro analytical technological framework we're headed into the greatest area of prosperity ever. And maybe it's because my bias, but when I look at the technologies that we have with Bitcoin and AI, when I look at the explosion and wealth of information that we have at our fingertips and the combination of a global monetary asset that can't be debased, I see the greatest era of prosperity that we've ever seen, greater than the, I mean, greater than the Renaissance. And so I'm super, super bullish on that as well. You are, and you make us too. that's very helpful indeed yeah yeah this has been amazing thank you so much for coming thank you loved having you on thank you so much and good luck at the conference thank you thanks for being

with us please take a minute to give this episode a like a comment and subscribe or follow and please share it with your friends so they can also get value and choose to take some positive action in their lives till next time Thanks for watching!