You're The Voice | by Efrat Fenigson - Hidden Agendas of Control vs. A Protocol for Freedom - Jeff Booth | Ep. 116

Episode Date: January 2, 2026

Jeff Booth is a General Partner at Ego Death Capital and the author of The Price of Tomorrow,  known for his profound insights at the intersection of technology, economics, and human consciousness. This conversation explains how the existing monetary (fiat) system relies on debt, fear, and illusion to survive, and why it’s now unraveling under its own weight. Jeff explains why Michael Saylor’s current position is very different than his initial one, and why it isn’t sustainable. We dive deep into the different types of control vectors governing our life, from money to politics to physics, and explore how consciousness shifts and Bitcoin challenges these structures at a fundamental level. Jeff talks about decentralization, the role of fear and agency, and why the free market has never truly existed — until now.  We also touch on spirituality, the deeper meaning of sovereignty, and the transformative potential of Bitcoin not as an asset, but as a protocol for freedom.→ Please like, comment, share & follow — to help me beat the suppressing algo’s. Thank you!– SPONSORS –→ Get your TREZOR wallet & accessories, with a 5% discount, using my code at checkout (get my discount code from the episode - yep, you’ll have to watch it): https://affil.trezor.io/SHUn→ Have you tried mining bitcoin? Stack sats directly to your wallet while saving on taxes with Abundant Mines: https://AbundantMines.com/Efrat - Claim your free month of hosting via this link– AFFILIATES –→ Get 10% off on Augmented NAC to detox Spike protein, with the code YCXKQDK2 via this link: https://store.augmentednac.com/?via=efrat (Note, this is not medical advice and you should consult your MD)→ Join me at Europe’s largest bitcoin conference - BTC Prague, June 11-13, 2026. Code EFRAT for 10% off: http://btcprg.me/EFRAT→ Be good to your eyes & health, and get the Daylight tablet - a healthier, more human-friendly computer, zero flicker & zero blue light. Use code EFRAT for $25 off: https://bit.ly/Efrat_daylight → Get a second citizenship and a plan B to relocate to another country with Expat Money, leave your details for a follow up: https://expatmoney.com/efrat→ Watch “New Totalitarian Order” conference with Prof. Mattias Desmet & Efrat - code EFRAT for 10% off: https://efenigson.gumroad.com/l/desmet_efrat→ Join me in any of these upcoming events: https://www.efrat.blog/p/upcoming-events– LINKS –Jeff on Nostr: https://primal.net/jeffbooth X: https://x.com/JeffBooth Ego Death Capital: https://egodeath.capital/ Efrat’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/efenigsonEfrat’s Channels: https://linktr.ee/efenigsonWatch on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/yourethevoiceSupport Efrat’s work: ⁠https://bit.ly/zap_efrat– CHAPTERS –00:00 – Coming Up.. 01:23 - Welcome & Intro of Jeff Booth07:12 - Systems of Control vs. Freedom15:35 - The Illusion of Democracy16:45 - Challenges to Human Action21:55 - Is Bitcoin Integrated Into Existing Systems?23:25 - Ad Break: Trezor & Abundant Mines29:55 - From Asset to Protocol: Rethinking Bitcoin38:25 - How Are We Doing With Keeping Bitcoin Decentralized & Secure?41:25 - We'll See an Explosion of Privacy Tech & Tools52:15 - How Will The Global Economy Be Influenced If All Is Connected?1:01:02 - Ad Break1:09:55 - Bitcoin and Quantum Physics - New Paper1:12:55 - Meeting Bukele & El Salvador Visit1:21:26 - Polarized Society, Violence, Destruction & What Do People Want1:28:45 - Audience Questions: 1) Why So Little Funding to Bitcoin Companies?1:37:35 - 2) Marketing vs. Advertising vs. Value Creation1:41:05 - 3) Biggest Challenge Bitcoiners Face Today?1:44:40 - 4) Is The Halving Cycle Broken?1:46:25 - 5) Why Did Jeff Move to Miami?1:47:45 - 6) Who Should Be Orange Pilled?1:50:05 - Jeff's View On Saylor's Journey Into Bitcoin1:52:35 - Jeff's Habits & Productivity Hacks1:55:55 - What Gives Jeff Hope?

The natural state of the free market is deflation, and we've never seen it. It means it's always been a control system. That's really hard to admit you've lived in a lie forever. We've always lived in a zero-sum game. If that zero-sum game was based on exploitation, all history books are out of the same zero-sum game, and they reinforce on themselves, and people don't know that they're living in a zero-sum game.

If most of the money for said democracy has to come from theft, and you don't have a vote in the theft, Do you live in a democracy? I do. Laws change to support the money, and they always have. Centralization doesn't work. It assumes all of the great ideas that contribute to society have to be suppressed. Bitcoin was an open, decentralized, secure protocol bounded by energy.

It would reprice everything over time. Bitcoin might be the first quantum computer or the only quantum computer in that manner that could ever exist. I hope Saylor will move deeper to it. How he started it and now what he says is very different. You want to take credit for all the really good things in your life, then as soon as there's something that's not working, you want to blame someone else. Yes. Hello, and welcome to another episode of You're The Voice.

Thank you for being with me. I have the honor and pleasure of being here today with Jeff Booth. Hey, Jeff. great to see you again. It's so great to be together. Thank you to Rumble and Locals for hosting us in their beautiful studio. I really appreciate it. It's one of my traditions as I'm nomading to just hijack studios around the world. So here's another beautiful one. I find the best studios. I don't know how it happens. But shout out to Alex that helped me reach out to the Rumble team thank you so much for all the beautiful community uh that is helping me do this like

it's it's pretty unreal jeff we had a chat close to two years ago when i was just starting up with the podcast in madera you remember in madera and i invited you and you gracefully said yes so thank you it was just the beginning for me and i was if you go back and listen to this episode episode 31 I was such a newbie I was asking newbie questions but I was asking them like I was not shy to ask them and one of the things you told me in that interview was we're all on a journey and we're in different stages of our journey and it's totally okay for you to be where you are but understand that there are more things to learn and you know I love that guidance and curiosity and And out of that, out of that conversation, I remember questioning you about nodes.

For example, I set up a node. Now I am a node. So you were my inspiration to then go learn about nodes and set them up. So if you're a Bitcoiner and you haven't done, you know, you're in your journey, self-custody, nodes, like there are things that I think is important for us to understand in our journey to sovereignty. So go watch episode 31. It's amazing. It's more for beginners. And today we're going to dive a little bit deeper.

I'm just, you know, for those who don't know you, which is weird, why would someone not know you? So Jeff is one of the real ones. I call you guys the real ones. They're the people with the real hearts and visions and love and open hearts that I connect to on a different level. So for me, you know, I find true freedom and true love in meeting people like you. So I'm really, really honored to be here with you. Jeff is, he's the general partner of Ego Death Capital and also the author of Price of Tomorrow. And he has a unique perspective on technology, economics and spirituality.

And I'm going to take you on a slightly different trajectory in this conversation, because I want us to cover topics that we both find fascinating like a little bit of spirituality consciousness quantum physics maybe and the intersection between them and obviously how they all relate to bitcoin but I guess we have to start with like covering some essential topics such as privacy and the changes that we experience these days so people may not fully realize but we're living in insane times of changes and systems the old systems of control as you call them are desperate to exist. So they clamp down on people, on society even harder. And I think everyone's feeling it to an extent. Maybe not everyone understands it, but everyone's feeling

it. And I want to hear from you. What do you think about the time we are living in right now? How are you seeing things? Not that it's a surprise for you, but how are you seeing things shaping up can i first start i just want to first start by saying like look at your growth and what you've done by touching other people in that that long right two years ago just over two years ago yeah and look at by contributing to this and moving and impacting other people what your your podcast has done and what you're doing today as a result of moving your time yeah because you said you know if you want to see a change in the world you have to move your time to this new way of living to this new system and i was looking at my life and i was like that's what i do want to

impact people i want to make a difference and i want to help them bridge that that gap that they have in learning how to be more sovereign and free so i can't just say i want to do that i actually have to move my life and time into that. So we're going to pick up on that theme across everything today because it's actually at the heart of all of the conversations. But your unique genius is showing up and impacting other people. And what you see as a reflection of what the world is today is you unlearning where you were and relearning how you contribute in a totally different way. And as that impacts other people, they're doing the same thing. That's what I meant to say when I said we're each on a different part of a journey, that there's no way any of us could

have understood what Bitcoin was in the beginning. It was new. And as we come to terms with what it is, we change. It's us that's Bitcoin. Yeah. And we allow that change to take over and come into our lives and or push it away or push it away push it away and so we should explore we should explore that from a whole bunch of different angles yes and say what that what that might look like yes um from from different uh from from different perfect perfect yeah because this is this is it like the changes the opportunities are coming closer and closer to us and they're inviting us to do something to take action so you asked you you asked um was the specific question was the state of the world right now where the systems of control are slowly you know they're

becoming desperate so they're clamping harder on you know their controlled mechanisms and how do you see do you see it like me like is it really what's happening or or yeah so we'll let's let's investigate that and take it all the way down on what it must look like but it always had to look like that yes system we were in and then that also provides the opportunity for the something completely beautiful that emerges out of that yeah so so it's both the it's both so it's the clash of you could you could say it's either depending on your frame of reference A time that would be more and more frightening, where you would lean into fear and control and coercion, or more and more hopeful. And so both of those reside in the world today, depending on your frame of reference on what exists on the world.

It's not outside of you, it is you. So, but let's, I guess, let's start from first principles, right? And let's start, and then let's investigate or decompose, attack both systems. And remember, this isn't people. It's not a people problem. It's a system problem. And that's really important to recognize. So I've said you probably, every podcast, the natural state of the free market is deflation. The reason I say that is it's so easy. It's so intuitive. You're nodding your head. You know it's true. Oh, yeah.

Right? And everybody nods their head, and then they move directly from that back to a different system that doesn't operate like that. And so what does that mean, the kind of the gravity of that statement? It means we've never lived in a free market. There has never been a representation of global free market where we competed and the competition produced more value for everyone and we all won as a result. So we've never lived in an infinite game like that, meaning we've always lived in a zero-sum game. Right. So what would that zero-sum game, if that zero-sum game was based on exploitation and you could either take somebody else's minerals or gold, put them in economic slavery to support your country, then it's the only thing we know, right? All history books are out of the same zero-sum game and they reinforce on themselves and people don't know that they're living in a zero-sum game.

And so that system, because the natural state of free market is in conflict with a debt-based system, the debt-based system can't allow the natural state of free market because debt is lent into existence. Yes. Then we have a choice, right? Which system are we living in? So when we naturally go to the fear and the coercion and the division and all of this, that is inside the choice of the framework that we live in. But just imagine a politician saying, hey, the jig's up. We're going to let everything, we're going to let the free market work. But the money was always debt.

It wasn't really money. And so everything is going to fail. Your house is going to go to zero. Supply chains are going to fail. Every bank is going to fail. And we're going to just start over. Everything will be liquidated. We're just going to start over.

Yeah. Would you vote for that politician? Probably not. So is it them or is it you? Of course, it's me. And I'm not saying you specifically here. I mean, I would because I want to see it, but I'm crazy and most people won't. I actually probably wouldn't because the chaos that that would...

Yeah, that's right. I wouldn't want to live in such a reality. But when you see that, you see there is no they. Yeah. It's a construct of us making choices inside a system that there wasn't a way out of that system. So that system always consolidated. It always created the same thing. We went to war.

So first politicians would divide a country. We would bite, right? Had to be somebody else because we don't want to see it in ourselves, right? We would bite. We'd say it's this politician better than this one. All of those them people, they're the bad ones. It's that enemy. The enemy. We would have to see it because it was really us. And then that couldn't fix the problem. So we would have to create an enemy outside of our borders, which we would then fall into the trap again. It's those people in today's world. It's China or Israel or this or that. Um, and, and there's always somebody else so that we don't have to take responsibility. Yeah. And we don't want to look in the mirror, right? Saying that if all of our economic, if, if everything that we're sitting in is a control

system that has to steal more money and we're doing everything from that control system, it has to be us too. Right. But it's, that's so hard on our, uh, on our consciousness, right? It's because then it says something about us, right? And it can't be about us. So we fall into these traps and we don't have our agency. We stay there and we're exploited through that. Then we go to war. We cut tens of millions of people. We build institutions, say, don't forget. We celebrate Remembrance Day. We'll never do this again. Well, the whole thing starts over again. And the entire history of the world is actually formed out of that very simple thing that repeats through history because if the natural state of the free market is deflation, and we've never seen it, it means it's always been a control system. All our isms, all of the ideas that we, and that's really hard to admit you've lived in a lie forever.

Yes. It's really hard to admit on your psyche. You don't want to believe. So it's easier just, it's such a big idea that you want to put your head, and it could create fear. You don't know how the new world would look. So it's easier just to put up a wall and say that can't be true. And I find that, especially in the industry we're in, where Bitcoiners are, I think, obviously, generally speaking, are more brave and courageous to take that leap and say, OK, you know, I've unlearned everything about the money. Now I understand I've been fooled, manipulated. I see another way and they act on it. Still inside that group, there's also a lot of people that do not want to extend that exercise of starting to look for where else in my life have I been manipulated or haven't seen things.

And they keep on holding on to the money issue only, whereas the centralization of power and control has been present in every area of our lives. As you say, we've never lived in truly free societies before. It has to be connected to everything. It's all connected. So the health, the education, the climate, you name it, everything. There isn't anything that's not connected to it. Exactly. Because you asked yourself a question.

I call them like the subsystems of the main fiat system, right? The control trickles down from the mother system to all the subsystems below it. So if you are living life thinking that there's a way that the military industrial complex or big pharma or big tech are not influenced by that fiat corruption, then you live in la-la land. Yeah, so legal systems people think. legal systems exactly we live in a democracy yeah but if the democracy um if most of the money for said democracy has to come from theft yes and you don't have a vote in the theft do you live in a democracy anymore and then we say don't worry our laws will protect us take the most broken money in the world take a country that you know the broken money and do law so when money is

really broken essentially more theft who do the laws protect they protect the people because otherwise the laws would in the most broken money you would expect the laws to protect the people the most to protect the politicians the ones that are stealing them money is superordinate to laws yes laws change to support the the money and they always have why you see the patriot act today why you see all the digital services surveillance yes why you see all of these things which is a natural extension of money being broken, it has to all be connected. Because you didn't vote for the money to be broken. Or you did. But sure, you didn't know you did. Okay, that's a wonderful way to start. Okay. You know, recently, I've been also banned from Telegram. And I've just done

an interview with Natalie Brunel. She has a massive channel on YouTube. And every episode there it goes viral she had one with me capped at like two three k yes so i'm heavily like censored and slowed down by those systems because whenever someone you know tries to open up the conversation the views the mindset to other things there are systems out there trying to slow it down or completely close it and as you said they're all manifestations of that control system in the end of the day they they have to do it this is otherwise they have no existence and that's why you know i'm so honored and and so grateful to find you know places like these that would host free speech and would host different opinions and people and and allow this to happen

um but i think that all those hiccups all those you know the censorship being banned from places whatever financial system debanking you credit cards all that shit that we are experiencing in the world right now and free speech going to hell wars those breakdowns or challenges are just bringing us closer to opportunities to take action so let's talk about human action What is the biggest challenge for people in seeing the opportunity to act on something and actually taking it? Why is that so challenging? And where do they start? I mean, to me, this is all a matter of integrity.

You know, if I put my money where my mouth is, if I say that this is what's important in life for me and a breakdown happens, I say I want to speak out. this is why my podcast called you're the voice and then i'm being censored it means i have to do something else it means i have to do more rumble i have to be on nostre i i'm not gonna give any more of my time to telegram you know it's like i make the changes the necessary changes i take a loss on the paying subscribers that i had on my blog because striped closed me down but i opened the zap right and i allow people to pay with bitcoin or fiat so i it's hard it's messy it's chaotic, but you do stuff to, to change. So where do you think this biggest struggle for people in facing those breakdowns and then taking action? I think it mostly comes to fear or agency.

I think at the bottom of it all is agency. And they think, because if you're inside that system and you're constantly inside that system, then you're actually subverting your agency to somebody else yeah and you're saying they matter more than me and then you yell at them from yes and that because all of your views are inside there and and that can feel like depending on how far you're down it can feel like there's no escape i have to do this job because because my family relies on this job so the more i do this job that the money is getting less and less and less and i'm having harder time, it imposes more fear. And I stay stuck when I might be able to see something totally different if I wasn't from that frame of reference. And so you see the control system,

it works, right? It works. Yeah, it does. But the free market also works. If you took the most broken country and you said, capital controls, you have to use this currency. In every one of those countries, you see a black market for actual money. Argentina. I just spent time there. You always see a black market where the real rate is the black market rate. The free market always, centralization doesn't work, right? It doesn't because it assumes all of the ideas,

all of the great ideas that contribute to society have to be suppressed in favor of a few that extract from society. So it always breaks. And we're just very, very early in that breaking, something building something totally different. But the same thing is happening in Bitcoin and the magic you see in your own life and what's happened to your own life and the magic I see in my own life is by moving your time into a system that can't be cheated, where the rest of the world is still stuck in the other system at various degrees, yelling at the system, contributing to it and everything else. And you're literally building, you're, you're both part of the map and the territory because you're building the new, the new protocol and the layers and what will come to free people as they become stuck and they realize it. And this is, yeah, this is perfect. And it's very, very accurate. And I think that, you know, I want to talk about it later, but I think this is a right time to bring it up. The Bitcoin industry, it looks like it's being integrated into the existing systems into like it feels like it's integrated into politics, into institutional, you know, and I am one of those people that think that everything in life is divine and it has to happen in that way. And there is like everyone has to adopt it in a certain way. The question is about Bitcoin.

Is it like is it really being integrated into the existing system, you know, through ETFs, banking, treasury companies, or we're witnessing the birth of a parallel one that will eventually replace it? Because you always talk about that split between the two systems. Both exist at the same time and they cannot coexist indefinitely. So they coexist only because people are taking more risk than they should inside a system. To investigate this, let's just, let's use to the world we've never lived in, right? The natural state of the free market is deflation. For that to emerge and that be the world we live in, and that's, we are both, we're participants of it, right? Yeah. So for that world to, because what is economic, what is an economy?

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steal more and more at a faster and faster rate as a result of that centralized faster and faster as a result of that drive, coercion, control, everything from that system. I have to understand though, but that system, the control system is adopting Bitcoin. It's okay. Now, but that's actually why I wanted to say that first. Okay, so now a belief that we've always needed assets. Yes, because we need to store. And why did we need to store our money?

Because it's being stolen from, it's being lost. Because we've never had money that could act as money. Yes. So if you had these two systems that were, so Bitcoin was an open, decentralized, secure protocol bounded by energy. And every 10 minutes it was imposing a new, new system. And it appeared to a whole bunch of other people trapped in this system that these people were getting rich. Right. Then, and, and these two, a lot of these people would sell back to that money. Right. Because now they were rich. Right. They would just go, they would just go back. Right. A lot of people. Yeah, I get it. So that's, it would, well, both things would be true at the same time. And then if the system, if in 5,000 years of human history, we'd never lived in the system I'm talking about, then you'd have to have such a high bar on the attacks, right, that would come to Bitcoin, right?

Because if it stayed decentralized and secure, it doesn't care what I'm saying. It would just impose, it would reprice everything over time. So now let's go to some of the attacks. China tries to stop it, right? Bans that other countries do the same. They put people in jail. KYC, everything. Privacy tech. Those people in jail. Sending signals to, this is dangerous. It's only used for drug trafficking. It's used for this. Not talking about Epstein or anything else that's inside the system, but fear or control.

And then it still couldn't be stopped. What would you do? You would co-opt. You'd adopt it. You'd co-opt it. You'd say, this is really good for us. Right? And then those people wouldn't go into self-custody.

They wouldn't use it as a currency. They would use it as an asset. Asset. Which then you would just have a bigger control system. Mm-hmm. Right? But for Bitcoin to actually flourish and do what I expect, when I say it has to stay decentralized and secure, it has to withstand these attacks. And these attacks are completely snowable, right?

Because they're preying on us, right? And so even if it wasn't deliberate, just the incentives of that system and most people pricing Bitcoin from a piece of paper would create a natural flow that would make these attacks inevitable. They won't work, right? Because once you know what Bitcoin is and you've unlocked your time and you use it as a currency and you're building privacy tech and you're building all of these things, you're providing a different potential future for humanity. And more and more of the people that are building to the other future are going to get stuck, right? And they're going to also move their time to the new future.

And they can't coexist, right? One system is not the free market, and it has to centralize faster. And it's trying to centralize something that is decentralized. And one system is the free market. And because Bitcoin, because it's a protocol, and I think about some of the other things that would happen through that, which we've seen, we will continue to see. I use protocol quite often in my language. Michael Saylor uses asset. Those are two totally different frames of reference. Very different. Right. That have completely different outcomes. Yep. An asset requires a different piece of paper that's devaluing against it to retain control.

Protocol is a network and it comes in layers and it delivers more and more functionality. And we can't see what the new layers emerge until they're already there providing the value. So the last protocol anybody knows about is the internet. TCPIP, yeah. And it started by DARPA in 1969, right? It wasn't until 1989 to HTTP. Right. So 20 years.

Until the opening. The exact same thing that we're seeing, Bitcoin. Yeah. Intranets trying to, I'm going to control the internet. Exactly the same thing. Yeah. And then in 1989, how many people knew what was going to happen on the internet? Very few.

When you take out your iPhone, when you take out all of the progress around, it's all on top of that same stack. Oh, yeah. And a protocol is winner-take-all. But because we see technologies more often, we think in winner-take-most until the new technology. So now if you had this once-in-a-lifetime, once-in-forever, right? Yeah. Innovation that was a protocol bounded by energy, open to secure protocol bounded by energy, imposing its will. So then from this other thing, from the fiat system, when we think in technology, it would be really easy to say when Vitalik tried to change Bitcoin, but the nodes said, not here, right?

Forget it, right? So it would be easy for him to go and say, I'm going to create something different. I'm going to create Ethereum. And then a whole bunch of people get, I don't want to say scammed, caught up in a centralized blockchain thinking it could be a world computer because he would tell them that this thing is more valuable than the last technology, Bitcoin's old tech. And so they would be, and then he would have that happen with Solana and all these other things. And you'd have millions of these. So it would, for Bitcoin to stay resilient, to be a protocol for everything that I say is true and coming, it would have to look like this. And all of these people, through all these mistakes, it would have to look like this too, as it was imposing a new way of operating. You're literally building a new internet. Yeah, absolutely.

From energy, right? From energy. And so you have an internet that isn't on energy. You have on a fiat experiment and you have an internet bounded by energy. And so what's happening, and we're in the early cycle building of that, is Bitcoin, as most people are looking today, is a part of that network. Yeah. So they're thinking it's a coin. They're thinking it's a... First and foremost protocol. And most are still thinking... Coin. Pricing it in a piece of paper.

Uh-huh. Right? Yeah, always. Dollar value, always. But it's a protocol. And every time I bump into people talking about Bitcoin in the context of number go up or the dollar value of it, I say, this is not Bitcoin. This is... You don't get Bitcoin.

You don't get it. But again, maybe they do. You're looking at it from, as you always say, from your point of reference in that old system. This is the only way you know how to look at it. But try on a different pair of glasses for a second. Come into that side. And all of these ideas would have to bounce into each other. Yeah.

And if you've ever been wrong in your life, then is there a potential that you might be wrong about this too? And as you start to investigate this, you start to check these things, you start to say, and you move more time into the protocol that's on it. I love how you nailed the explanation. The key point about your explanation is the word asset versus protocol. And that's just one, right? So that's Michael Saylor's version versus mine. But a whole bunch of people believe in that, and it cannot be both, right? Exactly.

But I think that's the best way to explain it. The reason why you see the current system adopting Bitcoin is because they treat it as an asset and they want to co-opt it, control it. Even if they didn't, even if you said the debt's insolvent, everybody is pricing everything that they own on top of insolvent debt, that's already just an imaginary construct. It's completely insolvent. The entire world lives on insolvent. They treat as real.

Yes. And then question. Yeah, everyone's pretending that that's a stable thing. Like the head of the IMF, how did she say the other day in the panel she did about the future of finance? She said, everything I'm giving you here, stable coins, CBDCs, crypto, this is backed. It's backed by us. like by fiat and bitcoin is the only one that is unbacked by energy yeah right and so it's again this illusion that this is safe yes right when people are doing their research against bitcoin

from the from the burning building right exactly and then from the titanic from the illusion that All of this stuff is safe, and they know for sure the debt is insolvent. Yes. And they're still questioning this. But then, of course, I went on a tangent to, even if you wanted to say, okay, these aren't bad people, they're trying to repay their debt, right, and allow Bitcoin to run to make the debt less of a burden, right? But the debt itself, why the debt is, the debt is the construct. Debt is money, right? And yes, debt will come down in that system for a while before it goes right back up, right?

And it won't solve the problem. No. It can't solve the problem. No. That's why I use, because what is money in the first place? It's an abstract concept for our trade. And so if you manipulate our trade through this instrument, then you manipulate us through this instrument.

And Bitcoin doesn't need to. Bitcoin is money. It doesn't need me to say that it's money. It's already money. We just have a false concept of money because we tied a piece of paper to an asset to derive value in the piece of paper. And we also want to think that we had sound money in the past, pristine. We didn't. I mean, gold was never perfect.

It had a lot of shortcomings. Bitcoin comes and fixes many of those. but we really never had something like that before. Yeah, and I don't want to go against gold. No, I mean, I love gold, but it is still better than... So gold couldn't be used. Gold always centralized. And because it centralized,

you built fractional reserve currencies on top of gold until the point that gold wasn't needed anymore and you suppressed gold. And so if gold could have solved the problem of backing a global free market, And we would have never lived in a structure like we did. It would have worked. It constantly fails, which is why Bitcoin as a protocol emerging in layers is a totally different construct that we've never seen.

And your disclaimer of always saying decentralized and secure, what is the level of risk that we are experiencing right now in terms of keeping it decentralized and secure? Are we doing badly? Are we doing okay? We're doing great. We're doing absolutely fantastic. Now, that wouldn't appear to be fantastic if you were outside the system. So a couple of different things here. We've always lived in a box and believed everything that we were told in that box. And then the crazies or the genius outside of that box have pushed us to new beliefs, right? Because of creating something that we couldn't see from inside our box and the world changes and we change, right? It's always looked like that. And so today, let's use Bitcoin core or nots debate as an example, right? And you could just say, is there danger and everything else? What I love about Bitcoin is there is no box. I get to see it all. The consensus mechanism is seeing it all. The genius, the genius, the crazy, the crazy. Sometimes the crazy is crazy 99% of the time, but then can be genius on both sides.

And instead of ad hominem attacks and different things on both sides, I get to see all of it and then choose what is right for me. So my agency and the choice of getting to see it all, all of the people, all of the beauty, all of their ideas that conflict with my ideas, right? I don't know if I've ever met somebody that is 100% aligned to me. The genius in us is those conflicting ideas. And then we change. We don't know we've changed. And then we yell at other people. And so I want to see it all. And that's what the consensus mechanism, for the first time ever, allows us to see. Nobody can stop it and so so so if somebody tries to stop it yeah and force us to believe something else

free market emerges with something to that we can choose differently yeah that's what the consensus mechanism is and so i don't think there is one thing in bitcoin that doesn't come down to agency yeah you have no fear if you have agency right because you know you're doing the work and you're watching the work and you're with a whole bunch of other people doing the work. And if you think, okay, this needs privacy, right?

To be able to be, the protocol needs privacy to be, then you're probably going to invest your time into privacy. And you're going to defend the protocol emergence from a whole bunch of other people that have no idea the protocol's emergence because they're not part of it, right?

So what they're really worried about is somebody else. Yeah. Quantum could be the same, right? Yes. Why would you worry about that when you have agency in that? Yeah. And you could choose which way to go once the threat is there, risk is there, if at all it comes. So speaking of privacy, this is a really good segue.

I had an interview with Leah, the CEO of Vexel, the other day. And she said, privacy is the ability to selectively reveal yourself when the situation requires it and to the point where you're comfortable with it. We see today so many things around privacy, legislation to reveal your identity when you use the Internet, KYC linking your identity to financial services, including legacy banking, but also Bitcoin. All the crackdown on tools for privacy, like Samurai Wallet, Tornado, Wasabi closed down because of it. We see states asking us to reveal our private medical records in order to participate in life, just for normally participate in life. So it's like cracking down on our privacy in so many different ways from so many different systems. how like can you share your view on what we're seeing with privacy with regards to privacy and what kind of tools are being built out there in order to preserve it now this is something

even from the the book i wrote right if you have an exponential trend in technology and that exponential trend is going to create ai that's going to be if it's not general intelligence ai it's very close to, that's going to merge with robots, and all of that is extracted from you into centralized control, then that same AI will be used against you. And every minute you're spending contributing to that system in the fiat dollars, you're scared of the same thing you're empowering. You're making it happen.

And you think it's somebody else, but it's you. So when you're spending your time and you're measuring your life in fiat, it has to take that and use it. Then all of those things are derivative. And so what would happen to gain more control? You would create psyops or false flags or something to scare people into giving them more control because of those other bad people. So you're safe. And not only that, you actually empower the same thing you're scared of the most, because the technology is neutral. And if you had everyone living in slavery, except for a few people at the top, they would use that same technology to create anything, call it deadly diseases, call it anything, to be able to burn it all down. So the control system won't work that way no matter what.

But we are living in this, and I would venture to say most people, even in Bitcoin, are yelling at it while making it stronger. They haven't opted out. They haven't moved their time. But that would also create a ton of places to provide value to society. Oh, yeah. So many. And so you just mentioned a couple of amphetamines, right, and cashew and others, and built on top of Bitcoin, Noster. Noster, yeah.

I actually do want to name a few just for people to go, because we don't have time to go into all of them, but I do want people to go and listen, for example, to the last conversation you had with Walker about Fetty. I think that's a really good podcast. Vexel is just my previous episode Cashew Maple AI is a private AI PaperQ and SilentLink for eSIMs that are private Noster, obviously

So there's so many If you guys don't know any of the words I've said go and search it And there would be an explosion because it's needed and humans invent things they need and there would be an explosion of opportunity around creating the things that people needed the most,

even if they didn't know they needed it. Exactly. And so that's all that's happened, and it's emergent. It's already built into Bitcoin. So you can, if you know where to look, remain private. You can use your Bitcoin in a completely privacy-preserving way today. Your communications can be completely private today. Yeah. White noise, for example, building like the signal on top of Noster. So there's entrepreneurs working on that too.

There's going to be an explosion of interconnectivity through these protocol layers that give you more and more of that. Because why? Because that's where the value has to go to protect yourself from this centralized system. Think about this in the words. I know for sure that today I could take this podcast or not just all of my podcasts to date me and and make pretend that I said something different. Right. Or to my kids. Yep. Right. So I have to even though I'm a public figure, I have to have a private communication channel, completely private outside of everything else. And I would say venture to say every single person needs to do this now. absolutely right and have something completely outside the system because you will be attacked from inside the and inside the system everyone will yeah yeah i mean you already are being yeah the only reason i'm exposing the stuff that's happening to me on stripe telegram banking all this stuff is just for people to understand it's coming to everyone at one point you you do the

wrong thing you say the wrong thing or even if you do everything right that it has to control you it has to right it has to it can't let you step out of a belief system that gains its power from a belief from a belief system based on a lie so that has to keep you in it in it and so but that also creates the beautiful thing that it is the free market that is the opportunity to create value for other people stuck there. So I think people need to start thinking, you know, if you are in Bitcoin, and I'm not talking about the ones that are holding Bitcoin, this is the old world, you know, looking at it from the fiat perspective. But I'm talking about if you're a Bitcoiner, and you love this, because you understand the potential that this thing has for the future of

humanity and you're sitting there asking yourself what can i do to contribute you don't have to become something you're not you don't have to now become a developer to write code you just need to look at what am i good at or where is my passion and start building and creating and doing things there yeah where your passion is where your skills are with a the more people you impact positively the better you will do and from like look at your podcast exactly i i don't code i i speak so and and your genius inscribed into a platform into a protocol that it is that fractal is additive for everybody's benefit whether they're here or not you could touch one other person yeah you could do you do a podcast you do all your podcasts you could touch one person yeah and change the world

Yeah. Absolutely. It's not numbers or how much, but just you doing that and the entire time you've made this protocol stronger just by having the conversation, just by having an open conversation, an open dialogue about it. And you know, Jeff, I think this is something we both share because we travel around the world a lot to the different Bitcoin communities and places that adopt it and make it more friendly. And that's the thing that moves me the most. When I get to meet people that do stuff that, you know, you would never have thought, like one person selling coffee and educating coffee manufacturers and farmers about Bitcoin. And then you meet this lovely lady from the Netherlands that decided to open a community called Bitcoin for Babies. And she wrote a book and she has her baby with her and she's educating mothers about Bitcoin for babies. And then you find this guy that wrote a book for adolescents, for teenagers, and you find all these things that are happening. And obviously the circular economies and those beautiful merchants in the market that tell you that this is changing their lives because now they have more tourists coming and want to do business with them because they accept business.

The food's better because of it, because it's natural and clean and it's outside of the... It's mind-boggling to see that ripple effect. And most people, maybe they don't see it. Maybe they just sit there and they think, oh, you know, my impact is so small or I don't make any difference. But you have no idea what is happening in the world. Like, I think we are so lucky to get to see it. It's indescribable. It's literally impossible to tell somebody who can't experience it what it feels like because it's just, it's full of love.

It's full of light and love, yeah. And from their paradigm, what they think of Bitcoin as, that would feel like there's no way. But that would be true for them because that's their mere reflection of the world. Yeah. So I then just encourage people to go travel to some places that you have those things and just speak to people and see, get exposed to what people are building. It's insane. Leah was telling me about Vexel, the platform. People don't just do peer-to-peer trading there. They also started using it as a marketplace. So they sell cookies for Christmas. And the other day someone was selling an ATM for Bitcoin on Vexel. You have no idea where these things are going. Okay, I want to ask you, we talked a lot about capital and all that stuff,

but I want to ask you a little bit about consciousness. So the concept of non-duality, the idea that we are all interconnected and part of a larger whole, how can this concept influence our understanding of the global economy? If we consider that everything is interconnected and part of a larger whole, how might that change our perspective on the way money flows and is distributed across the globe? The relationship between nations, corporations, individuals in the context of trade and commerce. Like if everything is connected and we are trying to like envision and imagine that world that we have never experienced that is completely free, how is the concept of non-duality that we are all part of the same big whole, how is that going to influence the way we see the global economy? Okay. I'm going to take this from a couple of different directions and I'll start here. Everything is mind, right? The, the, everything in this room came out of somebody's mind, right? And it was created and then manufactured or made. And so the physical space that we inhabit is created out of our mind. It always has been.

Yeah. And then we measure from the physical space and we lose touch of everything's mind. And throughout time, we've always seen really bright lights that, and some of them are entrepreneurs, some of them are religious figures, some of them are philosophers, that challenged our assumptions of their physical reality to create something different, a different idea out of their mind, right? That the world moves. But if that's true, and that is certainly true, right, and then coming through our physical reality, the manifestation of physical reality comes through a broken system, then once we were trapped in that physical reality, and it would feel really hard to see what I just described, right?

Because you'd be trapped in the fear and everything else that would be created by the physical reality that came through a broken system to create the physical reality. And the manifestation from there would perpetuate. You would be in Plato's cave without seeing the shadows on the wall. And you wouldn't know that it was you. And certain people would still see it. And you could go, let's use meditation or psychedelics. You could feel it once you escaped the cave and you could see the hole, but then going back and working within physical reality, you would feel that separation. I couldn't stay in that spot that was so beautiful.

So that's one angle to look at what would naturally happen. Another angle would be this, and I've said it a couple times, so forgive me if you've heard it, but if you just look at your parents, your two parents, and look beyond and look at your four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents, and all of those people, all of the beauty in their lives, the challenges in their lives, the the different things they somebody walked across the street and got hit by a car that you don't exist right that all of these things to create you and then you go through life and and all of their readings every single thing they did people they met people they didn't meet they they all those touches to create you and you go through your life and your version of your life and all the beliefs that they put in you and then you start challenging those you meet different people different and now take mine and go backwards and all of those things in mine and

yours put us here right now yeah to the only moment that matters yeah all of those touches all of those people responsible for me all of the people i can't thank right responsible for me yeah um and and same for you and to this moment that is the only moment that matters And actually also the only moment that exists. Yeah, the only moment that exists, because the other moments only put us here. Yeah. To be able to, in this time, potentially come together and see choices that create an infinite future. And most people come into this moment, every moment, and they're so, they have this view of themselves that is so locked and rigid at who they are that they don't want to let go of it.

go off um same reason why we look at our own photograph first and a picture right and so our story our story and all these stories that we tell ourselves that are true that we enter the only moment that matters only moment that is so carried away that we leave that moment and don't see any changes yeah because we're so self-absorbed of the of the change and when you say that connection you can see what i just described means we have to be all connected yes absolutely we have to be all connected and if we could see we're all connected what would that look like and so what what could you create if you saw every single person as a fractal of you right as as their genius that made that contributed to you absolutely that that what

would you see in those people what would you what would your life look like um what would you choose to harm or do good what would you choose and even harm or good or evil and everything else because we want to see ourselves as a good yeah person like when does cold become hot it's on the same spectrum right and and so all of the all of these things they're just our own thing that we tell ourselves that because we don't want to we don't want to believe we're the bad one right we don't And if you tried to challenge somebody else with their belief, they were stuck in their belief, whatever it was, and you said, you're wrong, what do they do, right? They defend and everything else because it's who they are. So, but that's just is.

And that clinging of identity is one of the first places I tell people to start working on when they want to break through the challenges that they have is like, go back to see what constructs your identity. How are you holding on clinging on to your identity as a detrimental thing? Like if you don't have that in your life or if you don't, if you let go of that, it's like you're going to die. Like challenge this thing first. And I think it's really similar also to the place of like the fear of death where people are so afraid of dying, where it's really inevitable. Like you're going to die. You want to confront that fear at one point because it's going to make your life a lot easier if you confront that fear. So there are certain places, the identity, the fear of death that are so basic in the perception of life and the perception of yourself that can help you lighten up your experience and connect to everything you said, connect to other people when you understand it's not all about you. And that all these definitions, all these strict structures are all created in your mind to keep you safe, to keep you out of harm.

And if you knew you're safe and you're loved, then it would have been. Mostly they keep you stuck in a trap that harms you. Exactly. You'd experience the entire beautiful part of life because you're worried about competing with that other person, not seeing their genius. So what you do is you construct, even if 99% of the other person is really great, you're typically talking about the 1% that you don't like with all your friends. And it's ludicrous. It's ludicrous. You're wasting your time, their time, everybody else's on trying to matter more than that.

But these things we have to face that it's us. It's not everyone else. tired of feeling like your freedom and future are fading away do you live in a country with growing inflation crazy housing prices weird culture and a chaotic economy you're not alone and my friend mikhail thorpe and his team at expat money can help mikhail is the world's leading expat consultant on a mission to free you from broken systems he's been an expat for 25 years lived in nine different countries and has helped hundreds of people with second residencies and passports offshore banking international investing and many other essential tools

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at science, economics, and human potential. It addresses challenging global agendas, mass formation, transhumanism, consciousness, societal change, and the path to transformation. Click the link in the show notes to access three and a half hours of exclusive presentations, in-depth content and my fireside chat with professor desmack use my code a flat for 10% off i hope you find great value in it oh yes that is confronting and that is really important i think economy will look completely different if we started taking more responsibility and operating from the lens that it's all us that matter like first look at ourselves and then look at everything else outside of us yeah but

again if you went and i'm not saying that you're totally right and if you were caught in if you were caught in the framework that came out of this and you were in fear and coercion and control and you believed all of that stuff and you were in social media every day that was reinforcing the things to be able to keep you there it would be hard for you to step out to see what we're talking about because you'd be you'd be yes so i understand i totally understand that you're right but i also empathize absolutely people that are sucked because they think you'll you'll probably have people comment that that works for you but not for me oh yeah and so so much i trigger many people with what i have full compassion because i know how hard it is to see and to understand the

stuff we're talking about. But, you know, this is an invitation. If this is calling you, then there is an invitation to kind of wake up to that. You were mentioning some things in what you were just saying now related to the hermetic principles. The other day, I was talking to our good friend Preston, and he was recommending the book, The Kabbalion, which then you told me you recommended which is so perfect is there a certain book or certain spiritual teachers or philosophers that have influenced you throughout your journey i would say just a combination that's why i say all the time there's no way i could say one right yeah i literally it's a lot of you influences you but but i but i mean that the amount of people in this space even if i didn't

agree with them all the time and influences all the reading that i've done you do a lot of reading uh yeah yeah over 50 books a year wow yeah yeah and sometimes you get one nugget out of a book and the rest of it's garbage sometimes it's it's it's it's more than that but it's the it's a combination of all of those things and all of the people i'm met meet it's not just one person it's it it can't be one person and even worse i said it before but there's no way to thank them all it's impossible to it it's literally impossible for me to even think to thank the people to how many people have been responsible for who i am today yeah yeah i'm i'm i'm with you so much and it's so moving because it's uh they all have a part in who we are and we we can't

i mean what we do is we we're like sponges taking all that influence from all these different sources and it kind of crystallizes into our own language and spark and you know and identity and purpose of who we are and it comes out in a different way it's like this mixer Right? We're that fractal that is both impact, then we're bumping into other people, and the world is changing as a result of all of that. Wow, and I meet a lot of these amazing people along the way that influence me. I know what you mean. It's so hard to just name them, but I have to just say, people like Professor Matthias Desmet has made such an amazing influence on my life. I've done a I read his book and then I've done a conference with him and he came to Israel and we spent a week together and I was like blown away by the fact that you can actually you know I sit with you and I talk to you it's like you can actually create that kind of reality in which

things like that happen magic happens because all you have decided to do is to be true to your own purpose, but then life, you know, you're attracting this, this, you're magnetizing these opportunities from everywhere else. And then you connect like a magnet with all these like-minded people, those real ones that I call them everywhere. You know, my friends, Simon and Tina and like all these people, Monica and everyone. And it's like these big networks. So how can you even, how can we even think that we are alone and we're separate and we're, we don't matter, you know? Yeah, you're, yeah, you're it. And every single person is the, so it's your...

We're the nodes, right? Exactly. It's your consciousness expanding that is, that is the, is the journey we are all on. Every single one of us and we're part of a collective consciousness that's, that looks like that. So through that lens, how could Bitcoin ever fail? Because we are it. We are it. Exactly. We are actually it. And so the more that you know, even if you didn't know, I didn't know this. And through my vulnerability on my own learning and things I would have made mistakes on before when I was investigating it and telling people how I looked before, I can see me in other people. Absolutely.

just them starting their journey so why would I be mad at that exactly I was that I am that so why would I be mad like the other day stuff happens with all the censorship and all the bullshit and I get so upset and worked up and I spend two

days with bad energy and then I catch myself and I snap out of it because I remind myself that I am part whole of this beautiful collective and I am part of this beautiful experience and what am i do what do you what am i yelling on and you realize that every time that you're stifled if the if because the truth doesn't have to fight that's

right it just and that's where i let go i stop i let go it just has to be right yeah and then i remind myself there's a higher guidance for you and this is divine it's happening because it has to happen and your voice will find the way so that is in the right way so the exit so the the lie has to fight and it has to try to hide the truth and the more that it does that the more opportunity exists for the truth exactly and so if you fight this system yeah if you take your energy down to fight this system that's the that's the loss right when all you have to do because because the expansion is also happening the expansion of all of the people and eventually people will see it because they'll find themselves so caught in a lie that they'll see all the people

outside of it. Yeah. I love it. Okay. Can you share a little bit about the, like we talked offline about a new research that is being planned around Bitcoin and quantum physics. Can you say a few words about that? What is coming down the pipe? I'm curious. Yeah. So I'm not going to give the the plot away without spilling the beans so there's these two brilliant people that have been put to put together this paper is now i think 150 something pages did you see it yeah i've seen it for better part of a year and and contributed there it's theirs there but i've been watching them giving some ideas and they came to me as lots of people do because a system problem can't be resolved from a system and if they'd looked at quantum physics or standard model physics and

quantum physics and the unification of those that's been 80 odd years and still not resolved yeah um they this is the same thing they're going to release it in a month or two um and well i'll get them on your podcast to be able to but i would love that so crazy fascinating that it'll it'll be challenging for for many people as well but the the idea that bitcoin might unite these fields um that have been disparate um for for a long time or being able to see that see a unification of these uh fields and if that's true there's zero threat for quantum physics or quantum attacks on bitcoin in fact bitcoin might be the first quantum computer or the only contraband computer in that manner that could ever exist.

I'll just say that for now. Okay. That's going to create a whole bunch of people from their framework saying, no, this is a risk and everything else, but we'll let the paper stand for itself. Oh, yeah. Can't wait. But at the very least, this is going to provide new lens to explore Bitcoin. At a deeper level, it might unify the physics field in a different way.

The Newtonian physics and the quantum. Yeah. Poof. Wow. Wild. Yeah. It's incredible. And by the way, this is what we get to experience.

Right. Every day by seeing different genius coming in activating into this protocol. And it's everywhere. It's that mind, right? It's that more and more people. This is my unique spot that I get to see is that. It's just wild to see the talent moving to this. It's so humbling. It's an amazing experience. We've both been to El Salvador a couple of weeks ago and we met with Bukele speaking of genius and you know a little bit like you I was curious fascinated to sit with him personally and hear from him how he sees things and not just you know when I meet people it's not just about hearing their words or understanding

the information they give me it's about feeling their energy and we both sat down on the same table with him and spoke to him and looked him in the eyes and i think i mean i i don't know i want to hear your experience but my experience was that i could look through his eyes had so much kindness in them but also he's a he's like he's a little troublemaker like he knows what he's doing and he's so smart and so switched on and so yet so kind at the same time and when we spoke to him about Bitcoin he was like it's super clear it has to be money like Bitcoin has to be a currency that's the end game period and the way to get there yep more grassroots more circular economy more people understanding that this is money and that was so refreshing and zero fear I felt from

him like speaking of energy there was nothing you know yeah sure I'm manipulating not in a bad way But just like I'm navigating through this rocky sea of, you know, I've got forces from, you know, IMF here, China there, U.S. there, my own people here, Bitcoin here. How do I make it all work in this puzzle? Very, very calmly, you know, and yes, it all has the right to exist. The question is, how am I playing this game? What did you feel? What was your experience? Yeah. So, you know, I helped put on that conference and I helped because I went and saw him before and I came away convinced that he's the real deal, that he actually wants to, that you, because you saw the attacks from Bitcoiners when he took the IMF money.

And so when he said to me that if my people run nodes, get into self-custody, and use this as a currency, then it's unstoppable, I realized that was my, I'm going to contribute my time here. Because if he's going to put me on a stage or help me put on a stage that I can help people get into self-custody, then even if he ever changed his mind, it wouldn't matter. You've already given that information. Giving agency to people who can actually make a difference. If you let someone like me speak on stage for 30 minutes about how CBDCs are cracking down on their freedoms and how Bitcoin changes this, then, you know, you allow this information to reverberate through space and time and people take it. And people take it. And so you put a national stage and you tell people to go into self-custody and run nodes and spend this. That's a big deal.

Have you seen another country do that? Have not. Yeah, no. Nothing. You put Ricardo Salinas talking about how state owns your money and you have to separate money and state. This is another level. You get that nowhere in the world. Right.

So that just sent a signal. Now, any single person, you, me, we could change. We could go back to the other system. And the incentives of the fiat system, the coercion, I suspect you're not going to change. I'm not going to change. I'm building this new world. But you have to assume that a lot of people could do that, especially leaders. Yeah. I was with John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, and he said to me, we went into these countries, bag of money and a gun, and take the money for your family and friends or we're going to create an attack to replace you. And they all had a choice and they knew they had a choice. And so when you sit with somebody that was part of the IMF and the infrastructure that did this to countless countries, that tells how this works, and you realize that Kelly had to be up against that too, and he's still telling his people to go into self-gustody and spend a bit. And he's setting up 500 classrooms to teach kids. Teach and everything else. The resolve starts to become more meaningful. And you realize that maybe he can keep that resolve. And whether he keeps it or not, or stays in power or not, if he has a 92, 93% approval rating, and his citizens are taking their agency, then he might go down as one of the best leaders of all time.

I agree. And it's not about politicians or power. I don't give a F about that. Sorry. It's like I was never impressed by people's money or power or anything like I can sit with anyone and look them in the eyes and just feel their energy and talk to them heart to heart or, you know, eye to eye. and it's just impressive to see that person doing what he's doing. It's not about the power or the money that he has and people around him that help him on that mission need to have so much courage and agency to do what they're doing and I salute them because it's not easy. And then this creates a real challenge for people looking through media and what exists there.

Yeah. So if you go and you experience, now, how many times have you been there? Three. Yeah, same here. Three times. The first time just after the gang war when there was a spark of light,

that of hope, but there was fear and everything else of a population that had lived in turmoil, largely created by control systems. Yes. Or they lived in turmoil their entire lives and generations. They've lived in this deaths, gang wars, everything else.

And then to see the spark of light when Bitcoin, even at the gang war that created, and then go back again and go back again and watch that country today in three years. Insane. It's insane. Yeah. To see the progress, the hope, the smiles on the kids' faces, what's happening there. And then equally insane is to go back to Canada and hear people talk about him as a dictator. What an irony. And so people who have never been there, who never cared about Elsinore, are so sure of their point of view because they're listening to a news that is completely biased.

Absolutely. They won't even look. so it's it's just it just shows how much power a media has over you when you so believe something without ever investigating it it goes back to what you said before it's not just the media has power over you it's because you didn't take the agency the power back to yourself because you are allowing someone to influence you with a narrative why are you allowing this that's like Why are you letting that come in? I've traveled to 85 countries.

And it's always, even when I first started traveling, kind of 18, 19 years old, and it always dawned on me what I'd thought. And then I met people where they were. And everyone you met in every country was exactly the same. Same hopes, dreams, same. same and yeah and it was totally different than what you would be led to believe about said country and so that's that's always just stuck with me so i maybe it maybe it's it i always wanted to look deeper i always wanted to look deeper how could how could i've thought this before

about these people yeah what you say makes me very sad because this is you know i come from a from a war zone and people don't like hearing me speak about you know we don't need war and peace comes from within and all my messages like don't resonate with the people back at home because they're so indoctrinated to seek the enemy and and be threatened by someone and when i sit down with beautiful people that i meet all around the world from egypt jordan palestine lebanon right and we talk we like in the end of the day we all just want to live our lives freely and happily and we want to take care of our families and communities and prosper and love and we dehumanize the other so much that this is just it's if people don't see

but that's what perpetuating the endless wars and the fiat machine to just allow it to keep going It's like, take time to look inside. Like just today, I left a WhatsApp group of 900 people in Israel, because it's a crypto group. And they criticized me for what I said on Natalie's podcast. They were like, oh, the big libertarian freedom fighter. We were surprised to hear that you think that we don't need to go to the army or like that your son shouldn't go to the army. And I'm like, you don't get that, right? It's like, it's so nuanced, this conversation and doing it on a WhatsApp group with 900 people is probably not the best way to do it. But I'm not against army. I'm not against protecting oneself. I'm not against, you know, the concept of military. I think that that is important in life, but I am against exerting power over others from a superior place. I am against non-voluntary participation in the military. If you want people to go to an army, you cannot coerce them to do that and risk their lives and even give their lives out. You need to allow them to choose if they want to do this. And many people do want to do it and it's fine.

Just like some people want to hold guns and arms. It's okay. It's like the whole concept of violence, there's a way to manage this in order to preserve protection versus to exert violence in a bad way. But when everything is black and white and polarized, and if you don't think like me, because, again, you're clinging on to your identity as an Israeli, whatever, then there's no room for discussions. And I'm sorry that I'm going on this tangent. But that is just made me so sad to hear you say that, because we all in the end of the day want the same thing. Right. So do you know Fatty? Of course. In El Salvador, we hang out together. So so he's on the exact other side. And when you see two beautiful people on this exact same thing and you see that their population suffering in different ways. Right. And those populations then turning to more hate. Yeah.

Right. And each rightful, so rightful in their way, not realizing that they're being orchestrated. Exactly. To feel like that through the system, it just, I try to, that's actually why I try, I can't get into those because I can't resolve it from there. Yes. There's nothing I can do to resolve that. I can only build a better system that places it. And then people have their choice to opt into it or not opt into it in time. And you'd expect that more and more people, when they see the choice for what it really is, will opt in. the the the scientist that i love so much that i keep telling you about is federico and he keeps saying that the universe the quantum universe is all about free will and consciousness and what what the soul's goal is is to know thyself know itself like that that is free will

will is the want the the want to know and and freedom is is all about consciousness it's all about knowing knowing getting more information getting to the root of who you are so when life is based on free will and consciousness then you are basically just seeking to know yourself better and better all of life all of this journey right this is the the soul's wish to know itself better and better and we have free will and we have consciousness and we just need to tap into those things and exercise them and and this is like we don't live life like that we live life so caught up in that third dimension with the fear and the hate and the and that box that you were so well you know painting the picture of before but when we step outside that box and look at

life through the lens of we have free will and we have consciousness we have agency to exercise action through the lens of free will and our consciousness will lead us to the right place life looks completely different everything's easy everything's easy like i mean really really really easy that's right easier and easier and you can just let things other things be without having to feel like um you're mad at it or anything else you just realize the it's just it just is and if your life doesn't feel like that yeah right just because you can you can see other people's lives that don't look like that you can pinpoint exactly what it is that keeps them there but you can't see it in yourself so the best way to to do it if there's an area of

your life that feels like that then it has to be you too right it's not i i know this from some vulnerability you want to take credit for all the really good things in your life and then as soon as there's something that's not working you want to blame someone else yes if you're taking credit for the good things you have to take credit for the bad things too if you it's a hundred percent you it is so confronting there's no and there's no one else and the minute you really realize it is you you have a chance it doesn't mean you'll change doesn't mean you have to change but now you have an opportunity to discover the thing that can change you and bring you into a totally different spot perfect okay looking at the time this is such

a beautiful conversation all right we have a good half an hour left and i um took a photo of you and put it on Noster, where I put most of my energy these days, because that's where I want to see growth. And I asked the dear people on Noster, what do you want to ask Jeff? And they came up with some really good questions. So can I ask you them? You bet. Okay. So Dan Gershonian, thank you for the zap on Noster, Dan. He asked, why is so little capital going to funding projects in the Bitcoin space? I think just people don't realize how profitable an opportunity it is.

Same reason why Bitcoin is still being measured in fiat. It's been predominantly, and they don't understand what's happening in kind of all of the different pieces of the protocol that are emerging and interoperable together. together we can talk about some of some of what i see there um as as well but please in capital today people are still gambling and um in like if you can do a token play in your a16s and you do a token play and you you sell to everybody else before it crashes then two year lps in that fund

it looked like you did really well and so this perpetuates on itself and it brings more and more kind of hot money the entire system is is like this and you have this new system emerging and if you're making a little bit more sats than you're spending you're operating at a different level than than just about everybody in the world you're operating on top of bitcoin and but creating a creating a free market enterprise that doesn't have regulatory moats is hard because Because you have to create value for somebody else that's expressed only when it gives them value. You have to time that. And then if, because if you're too early, there's not enough people there.

Let's use Nostra, right? It's early. And people are, okay, I have this idea for this marketplace, but there's not very many people there. So it'll be small at first. And what you'd need to do is instead of try to create a global company, create a local company. Create something valuable just for people around you. And then extend that. But if you created value there, and it was a lot of value, other people would come and try to deliver more value and attack your value. Right. So so it's a constant. The only way you can stay is provide more value for forever. And there is there is no moat. And now that if you're a capital allocator like you, you have to really understand what that looks like, too. And you have to, and there's more and more, like if I look at how easy it was to raise our second fund and how that's, I think that's because today it's, are we in, I'll get this wrong and then I'll be, but I think we're in 16 companies. But Seed and Series A, and there's not a failure in any of our companies yet.

I'm not saying that that won't happen, but that is so ridiculously. That's rare. Because in the fiat world. Oh, yeah. Most startups fail. A, B, C, D, E, F, G. They fail in those early stages. And they're still unprofitable when they go public, dumping their shares on public.

After all of this money and most fail, many of the companies are going from seed or series A to profitability and growing extraordinarily fast. Now, I cannot believe that more people can't see this. And they will. In time. And they will in time by all of these types of companies. And it's not just us. It's Matt O'Dell and Axiom and other and all of these that are that are helping support ecosystem or I wouldn't even say helping support being really great financial allocators. By building value in a free market. And if we're right, those explode and create so much value that attracts more capital into this ecosystem. So the success is from the success. The success begets success. And we're just early in that journey, but it's so exciting. It's unbelievable. I can't believe. Now, the valuation differences too. So to the person's point, some of these companies should be valued. Now remember, they're adding Bitcoin to the balance sheet each month. He's an entrepreneur, by the way, as a startup.

Some of these companies, they've found product market fit. They're expanding the ecosystem and they're adding Bitcoin to the balance sheet each month. What would the terminal value of something like that be, right? It's outrageous. So we wouldn't sell these. I don't know if there would be a price to sell some of these because in time, those things will dividend out. So the valuation is going to go off the charts. Off the charts. And people will realize that the measurement device

in this other piece of paper, I've been losing money the entire time. I thought I was making 20%, but I was losing 40% just by, um, so all of the other money, you don't have to be mad at it because it's, it's being repriced. Yeah. You just have to leave it. So, but if a, if he's an entrepreneur in this space. He is. Yeah. He has a company called Agora. Okay. So then, then, then they, the critical thing is, um, because, because we're early,

um, Nostra's early, all of these other things are early and there's different pieces, of technology and different pieces of the protocol that you could take this, this, AI, something else and create something totally new. And a lot of times in the first wave of technology, the first wave copies what was there before a little bit faster. But the real innovation is doing something completely new with new tools and people that does deliver some value in different ways that they couldn't even imagine. And so I'll use an example of something Pablo is building, right? So on Noster. So your public-private key on Noster is actually the only thing that you could create agents, narrow agents, and agent swarms that can't be shared

across Google's infrastructure because it's behind a cryptography and it's on Oster. So what does that allow you to do? A specific agent can do a narrow task better than you get in these big models and they hallucinate. And the more and more hallucination,

there's no way to solve that in AI. But there is a way to solve it through narrow task. Similar to how we solve problems. Division of labor. And now you take the division of labor and that agentic agent is free. Doesn't need the model. And it's better. It's faster. Now you string it with a different one that does a different narrow task and a different narrow task. Similar to the way we build companies. And now these things cannot leak your information to something else, so they can stay narrow. So that type of thing on Nostr is something that big tech can't solve, but Nostr can solve. It builds a totally different agentic world that is free, that gets better and better and better and faster, and big tech wouldn't even see it coming. Incredible.

Yeah. So this is an example of something that is being worked on right now. And you could take one of Pablo's agents or two of them or three of them where he has expertise, string them together with somewhere where you have expertise and create a model. Poof. This is going to explode so badly, Noster, and everything around it. People have no idea. And all this stuff is interoperable together, right? So it's all on top of Bitcoin? These apps are interoperable, so you don't have to go to Stripe to be able to implement Visa. Yeah, exactly. You're already embedded. You don't have to build, the developer doesn't have to build more code. It's just all plug, play, create something new.

And at the speed of that happening, it's just... Can't wait to see what the future holds. Speaking of value, because you talked about how you just, if you can't scale right now because it's so early build local right and give more value to your target audience and in the first conversation we had about two years ago and I asked you about marketing because that's my background that's where I come from doing about 20 years of marketing when I teach people marketing and personal branding I always tell them that the misconception about marketing is that it is advertising is that it's pushing something down someone's throat. It's selling them something

that they may not need. That's the problem with marketing today, which again is a derivative of the Fiat system, the control system. But the way I always teach marketing is as value creation for your target audience. If you know how to narrow down your target audience in the proper way, and all you care about is providing value to them, and everything else is a derivative of that, of that value then this is the best marketing there is because it's based on value it's based on creating value and it's based on values that you define for your brand on an identity of a brand that is built on a real purpose and vision and mission and it's it's self-serving and you don't need to work hard and you don't need to push something down someone's throat because you're

actually providing the value that you need in order to solve the problem that you're solving Right. So that kind of marketing, that kind of, if you look at marketing from that lens, do you see that that's the type of marketing that more Bitcoin companies are going to adopt? Yeah. Well, the smart ones will. And then they'll scale that. They'll use technology to scale that too. They'll use agents to be able to scale that target fit to find more of that type of buyer. Um, and the, um, but, but that key part that you just said is, is so often missed because, and, and by the way, it was missed for me too, as an entrepreneur, because what ends up happening is when something's not working. Yeah. You want to spend more talent yelling at people and because, because that more money. Yell louder. Yell louder.

Can make it work in the short term. Yes. But what it. It will be a patch. Exactly. And you're taking that money, spending it in market, and you're removing it from building the product for the people because you're spending the time yelling at them. So I'm not saying that there isn't a marketing opportunity, but marketing should be all about value creation for people. And the iteration, to be able to, before you go and start yelling from the rooftops about your thing, the iteration is making sure that it's valuable, that it's crazy valuable, sticky, that they love it.

And do it in a tiny, tiny subset first. Yes, yes. Because you'll get faster iterations to be able to create that value. Yeah. It'll cost you way less. And so the entire team should be focused on that. And it doesn't matter if your original concept of what you were going to do becomes irrelevant because it was just your original concept of what you were going to do.

Change with what you need to do to provide value. A lot of entrepreneurs now in the Bitcoin space are telling me that they're looking for good marketeers. It's hard to find. So if you are a marketeer, you can reach out to me. I'll connect you to some people because it's needed right now. we need good salespeople, we need good marketing people. If you're listening to my podcast and you are not in Bitcoin yet or a Bitcoiner, which many people are, and you're in marketing,

it's like this industry needs you. So if you're a good marketeer, you definitely need to check out the opportunities. Muriel is asking, what's the biggest challenge you see that Bitcoin entrepreneurs face today? What we just talked about. What we just talked about. What we just talked about. It's just narrowly defining the product market fit. Yep. Not spending a ton on that until they've proved it.

Like iterate, prove it. The evidence of other people using it is the thing you need to be able to raise your first money. Yeah. Typically the first money, I'll say for me, an entrepreneur's job, because if you're too late, the opportunity's gone. Yeah. If you're too early, a lot of times your cap table looks so terrible by the time that it emerges that you lose the opportunity. Yeah. It's a grind.

So timing is a huge part of this and why it's so hard, right? So all of these things are changing, right? The ground is shifting to make your job easier and easier to deliver value. And if you started over here before this existed, you have this cost, embedded cost, that you don't need anymore for this shift. So you have to be aware of all of these things that are constantly shifting to be able to provide value. And then you have to drive into that market to provide value. So it's constantly testing your assumptions and everything else while you're doing it, constantly talking to your audience and iterating until you find it. And the other thing I would say just from a VC lens is your job as an entrepreneur is also to stay alive.

So whatever you have to do to raise capital, if you need capital, ideally you don't need capital, but if you need capital, then you have to get to proof points to be able to raise capital and then more and more proof along the way. But a lot of times you have a stall at some time or something happens and it's a curveball and you need more money. And so a lot of times VCs can't really participate because you haven't made it from seed to series A. So you decided, you thought it would look like this, you're underfunded. So your job is to always have a parallel track that nobody can say no. You have parallel tracks that are insulated from each other that if you have to raise from friends and family or if you have to pass the hat around to be able to get a lower valuation, whatever it takes to make sure that you and your team stay alive to do that. Sometimes it's cutting costs. Sometimes it's iterating.

And for me anyways, I am not shy one iota of saying, I thought this. This is what I learned. Here's the actual reality now. Here's what I'm going to do. I think too many people get caught in trying to defend the previous reality and not knowing they're defending a previous reality and just staying stuck. Yep. There you need also humbleness and curiosity and introspecting. So another person called Furious Honey Badger is asking,

the four-year cycle, do you think it's broken? Yeah. So the halving cycle used to release a lot less coins, right? And each halving cycle is a lot less coins. I've never considered it from that lens. I've considered if this stays decentralized and secure, it's repurposed. Yeah, because that's fiat. Right, that's fiat.

Yeah. So I just don't look at that. And all the narrative around it is reinforcing why just people are waiting for it to go up in fiat dollars. I just don't look at it that way at all. I love it. I just look at more broad-based adoption and what are the things that are needed to unlock more adoption. When I was in Argentina in Buenos Aires, we spoke on a panel at LaBitConf about Bitcoin in 2026. And the first two people in the panel were Francis Pulio and myself and then Joseph Tedek.

And we were five or six people on the panel. Three of us, when we were asked about the Bitcoin price, we were like, we don't care. And the other three were like completely on this. And it was so clear, the difference in our answers, that we don't even care about the price. I mean, let's go to the next question. And other people got stuck on it. So it really shows the difference in the Bitcoin community. When you watch Twitter, virtually everybody's talking about the price.

Or a derivative of the Bitcoin pricing control system or something else. They don't know that they're still in the other system. They're not in Bitcoin, right? They're still giving all of their intention and energy into that. 100%. The wrathful Buddha is asking, why did you move from Canada to Miami? I mean, we all know why, but why Miami? That's how he asked it.

So Miami is probably a transition step for me. And the way to get out of Canada in a way that's smooth and everything else is this was the best stop. I haven't decided. And I also didn't want to feel like I was running away from. Yeah. By the way, the same thing is true for Bitcoin. I think some people feel like Bitcoin and they're running away from something. Yeah.

I don't feel like that to one eye. I feel like I'm building towards something else. And I needed my move from Canada to feel like the same, my family, to build to where I wanted to go, what does that look like. And so this is a step along the way to, and I realize what the world's going to look like. It's going to look more chaotic. Things could come fast, right?

And so this was a way to design some more flexibility into what I'm doing without picking the place I'm going to be forever. Yeah. I'm totally with you. We all need a plan B these days. Little Johnny's asking, when it comes to orange pilling with the original Bitcoin ethos, peer-to-peer cash, no third parties required, who are the most important targets for the orange pilling?

We talked about this extensively. And for me, it's everyone. And it's everyone because you don't know the person that you talk to could make a difference to tens of millions of people. You have no idea. so so it's i don't think there's a subgroup if any anyone it's it's all us right so there's i know it would be easy to say okay it's politicians or this i don't think that's true like i just don't i agree with you can be those people but each person's going to see it in their

own in their own time and i've been you can imagine how many politicians from various stripes come to me um or three-letter word agencies try to i've seen it all and what they're describing as they're coming to me is how they want to see bitcoin to fit with their narrative yeah and it doesn't matter because it's imposing a different uh reality so i can let them be i can listen to the questions and everything else and i can let myself be who who i am right and just just watch But what I think by being like that, by not trying to force it, just allowing it and speaking my truth, letting people find it in their own time, the asking questions, like a first principle, like this natural state of the free market is deflation, forces somebody to resolve the paradox in their own mind. Yeah. And then it doesn't, and once they've resolved it, probably, was it, did you say little Johnny?

Yeah, little Johnny. Okay. He's got a good memory. Yeah. So, because he's interacted with me a bunch on Nostra. On Nostra, yeah. And one of the things I would just say, and many of the others have too, and just, I remember because they're interacting and they're making a difference. Yeah.

And they're touching other people and they don't even know they're touching other people. Absolutely. uh by doing it so so i think that's how this this moves and each person in their own time moves deeper and deeper to this i hope sailor will move deeper to it i hope so too the uh the uh the because right because because right now it's uh the how he started it and now what he says is two totally very different right very different i look at his early videos it's like the video one of the ones that i love the most is him going on a rant of you don't want to take my bitcoin in this state so i'll move to that state and if you don't want to take it here i'll move here and if

you don't want to take it here we'll move to another country or another state until we find the right place that treats us well and then by the end of the rant he goes tax that yeah you will never hear him say that today and yeah but maybe it's because he's now inside a public company his The public company is regulated by this, and he's had a tap. Yeah, maybe. But it almost doesn't matter, right? There's two realities, right? There's many, many potential realities out of this.

But in his reality, what he doesn't know is Bitcoin fails because it would be centralized. It would be extracted from, and something else would replace it eventually anyways. And probably in his reality, which he doesn't know, is the thing that replaces it isn't something else than Bitcoin. It's Bitcoin taking his part of the chain to zero. Yeah. But the free market cannot exist in an inflationary system. And what he's talking about is an asset under an inflationary system. Yeah. And these are incompatible, right? So now everyone else has a choice. Now, I don't think that this is the nuance in these conversations. I really like Saylor. I don't think he's a bad person. Yeah, same.

Good, bad, right? He's brought a whole bunch of people to Bitcoin who will then discover this truth, but they can't both be true. No. Right. And every single person is going to face their own existential crisis of which one is true for them. At one point. At some point. Yeah. Every single person. Every single person. I agree.

okay before we wrap up this is such a beautiful conversation people want to get to know jeff the person a bit more what are some habits or practices that help you stay focused productive and energized what keeps you grounded we talked about it actually we talked about the people the moment the moment being present in every moment is my moment i think about that all the time when we went out in the boat yes the if people realize they they i think they think i'm frenetic busy my life doesn't look like that right it doesn't feel like that right it doesn't feel like it is busy but it's not feeling like overwhelmingly busy i choose everything i do absolutely i get to i that i cannot believe i get to do them with the people i get to do uh

do with it all looks like that yeah moment um uh looks like that and i'm not saying sometimes you get a curve ball and everything else it doesn't look like that but then if it looked like that from the same person all the time that I wouldn't do that anymore and so it's abundant it's love it's feel it feels like it feels really good everywhere everywhere and if it didn't I would know it was me yeah um and and so I'm not saying it always did right sure a lot of these things I've come to learn that that it was me blocking the thing that I thought was everyone else and it was it was only by internalizing that and finding that thing that i could that i could remove it and and live differently it's beautiful how do you prioritize some activities

that bring you joy and relaxation how do you decide this one is good this one is less good just things that just flow through life and the things that i like i um i love hiking camping You name a sport, volleyball, skiing, swimming, surfing, hanging out with friends, playing guitar, I don't know. You play guitar? Yeah. Since when? Since I was 19. Really?

18, I think. Classic guitar? Yeah, under a campfire, right? Yeah, just classic. Or electric. No, classic. Classic. Wow.

I want to hear that one. My friend and I, my friend and I did, at that time, took it up because we said guitar guys get the babes. I think it's kind of true. It's kind of true. My son is now learning guitar. He loves it. He's so cute.

Oh, that's amazing. Well, you got the babe. um and lastly maybe diff what gives you hope this what we do well there's this conversation um not just this conversation but all of these conversations that when you're when you're authentic in your true self with other people that can be authentic and and just be themselves um it doesn't matter if they get bitcoin or not yeah will in time yes You can feel the energy when you're around people like that. You can feel it cascading between you. And that should give you lots of hope. That's what the world should look like. That's what the world does look like. It does look like that.

It does look like that. And if you spend more time on an honest layer, you'll see it looks like that everywhere. You'll see more and more people that exhibit that. So when people kind of go into Bitcoin and they can't realize what it looked like before, and then they're yelling at people, and how good it feels with people who are also operating on an honest ledger, right? That's that disconnect. Yeah. They've already moved their energy, or most of their energy, and other people haven't. And they want to spend it around other people who've gone through the same, say, proof of work. Yeah. Right. Yeah. To understand the world they used to inhabit and now the world that they're in, they're building towards. And so and it feels like this feels like home. It feels like home. Now, you have to be really careful about that because it can also create in group bias. Right. Because in group bias, you want to belong to the group. If you belong to a group, you naturally think you wouldn't belong to a group that you didn't think was better than another group. Right.

so it feeds on your own ego yeah and and you then want to portray that you're better smarter or something like that and if you act like that with the other group what will it do to the other group because they're scared them off and because they're in their own bubble oh yeah that it'll feel like it's polarizing and you don't have to act like that you can just be um and and so um but it doesn't make you better stronger smarter or whatever it's just like you're in a different And like Monica, my friend, always says, you dial into a different frequency on the radio, right? It's just like a different channel. And then some of the people that you unlock in your life and the people that you meet along that journey,

it's really like the old cliche, the people you meet along the way. Yeah. That's what it is. That is the best, most rewarding thing ever. Like, thank God, I don't know who to thank, myself, universe, whatever, that I met you. and then i'll wait back at you wow dude this is fucking fun this is unreal like let's go play guitar and drink something i love this thank god i do this totally for a living this is like wow wow this is amazing so huge thank you obviously because you are the best and this was the best

conversation and a lot of fun i love hanging out with you right back at you please keep being who you are. You give so much hope to so many people, including myself. I love following your work and your words and your wisdom. And so many people that I told them that I'm going to have this conversation with you today, they were like, yes, we love listening to Jeff. So please keep doing what you're doing. You're the best. Right back at you. Thanks. Thanks for being with us. Please take a minute to give this episode a like, a comment and subscribe or follow. And please share it with your friends so they can also get value and choose to take some positive action in their lives. Till next time!