You're Wrong About - Ballet with Megan Burbank

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Megan Burbank’s gotta dance. The centuries-old dance style known as ballet has been stereotyped in our modern world with images of refined, wispy, frighteningly disciplined young women fighting viciously for roles in ethereal productions. For this episode, Adult Dance Correspondent Megan Burbank shares with Sarah the history and transformation of this misunderstood art from its early days as a fancy French aristocratic performance, to its post-French Revolution embrace by the working class, and finally into 20th century America when the expected body of the ballerina began to take shape. Megan also shares her own experience as a late-onset ballerina, dispelling myths about what ballet is, who can participate, and what we can learn about ourselves through its techniques. Together they discuss the line between art and sport, the aspects of horror found in many ballets, and whether it is too late for all of us to become the prima ballerina of our dreams. Digressions include: Final Destination acupuncture, the smell of the Scholastic book fair, and the questionable advertising employed by Tab soda. Send your submissions for our Halloween Listener Spectacular (scary stories or Halloween nostalgia) to [e-mail] before August 31st! Referenced: Ballet Evolved How Political Anxiety Turned Me into a Late-Onset Ballerina eXit SPACE Dance Studio International Adult Ballet Festival TAB Soda Fever Dream More Megan Burbank: Burbank.industries Burbank Industries on Substack Produced + edited by ⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠ More You're Wrong About: ⁠⁠⁠Bonus Episodes on Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Buy cute merch⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠YWA on Instagram⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I mean, what's better than making a man dance himself to death, I ask you. Welcome to your wrong about where sometimes we're wrong about ballet, and we are wrong about it with Megan Burbank. Megan? Hello. What are you doing? I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here talking about ballet with you.

You are so good. Your journey with ballet is something that I'm excited to also talk about. And I certainly hope that you're planning on sharing that as part of our story. But how are you doing this summer? I'm good. I've been having a very hot ballet summer. I went to an intensive in Florida. Oh.

Which would, I don't know. I don't know that I recommend Florida, but I did have a good time. Florida is a mixed bag. It really is. Although the humidity is great for the joints, I got to say. If you're wondering about that. Great for ballet. Yeah.

It actually is. That's like the secret. So I went to a dance intensive and I performed a classical ballet variation on point in a very sparkly tutu. And so, you know, we're feeling good about ballet right now. How did that feel? Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like it was really hard. And it takes a ton of preparation. So I had, I knew I was going to this intensive. in July. And most intensives, if there is a performance component, you usually have to learn the choreography at the intensive, which is really bad for pretty much anyone who began ballet as an adult or if you have any kind of neurodivergence or if you have a brain like mine that just doesn't pick up choreography quickly. Yeah, I'm like that. Don't you love it in movies or they're like, do the combination? And then they do it. And you're like, what? Yeah. I can. I

can't do that, especially if it's new to me choreography. It's like, I either get it immediately or I'm like, I would like three months to work on this one step. It's like one or the other. So this was really cool because it was like you were invited to prepare a solo. I also, let's stress for a second, by the way, for people who don't know, you're a grown up who's doing this. This is my hobby. This is what I do when I'm not doing my actual job. Yeah, it's just for fun. But I've got a lot of people are like, wham, I'm too old to dance. It's not true.

I disagree with that. It's not true. You can start any time. This will be a big theme. This is one thing many people are wrong about. And it's like, it's kind of the ballet world's fault that people have that impression. Because if you go to see ballet,

you will see a bunch of like very thin 24-year-olds. They're famous for being mean to people. Yeah. Some of that's warranted. Some of it's not. But yeah, I started ballet as a grown-up, and so I was going to this intensive, and you could prepare a solo, and people did all kinds of things. Like, I have a friend who worked with someone to choreograph a totally new piece, which is really cool.

But I was like, I want to do a classical ballet variation, which is sort of an insane thing to do, because a classical ballet variation is typically, like, a solo from a larger story ballet. and they're typically performed on point. So I learned this piece that was like only a minute and 30 seconds, but it's a lot of like balances and jumping and PK turns. And you do it in a beautiful two to on point and it's really hard. And it was scary to learn because it was just like a lot in terms of like loading my body. But then when I was able to perform it, it felt amazing. It's a really amazing feeling when you are out there and you are doing this scary thing and you're like, I can't believe I'm doing this.

Like it took me years to get to the point to be able to do anything even close to this. And then, you know, you hit your little two-footed balance and you feel like you can stay up there forever. And it's a really, it's a really special feeling. And I think it's one that I wish more people could have if they're interested in it. Yeah. Do you think adults kind of really need more moments like that? Yes. I do think that. When you're a grown-up and you have a job and you have other responsibilities,

I think you can start to feel really stagnant and sort of like you're no longer, like, evolving or changing. And I think what's really special about doing something like ballet is that it takes you out of your normal context. So like for me, I started ballet like right around the time I turned 30 was when I started going to classes. And it was really important. for me because I'm a journalist. I cover a famously depressing topic that we have talked about on this show before. And when I go to ballet class, because it's such a, it's both like physically intense on your body, like you're thinking about all of these different things at once, like your foot placement, your alignment, like even just like the tips of your fingers, like where those guys

are going. And then you're also like, you're thinking about the counts, the music, you're trying to remember the combination. It's this, it's this thing that I think is really helpful because it's like, you really can't think of anything else for 90 minutes when you're in that class. You know, I think Stevie Nix said something very similar about ballet. She did do ballet. Yeah. She did it for fun. You know, she's wearing point shoes on the cover of rumors, which I think not enough people appreciate. Yeah, well, there's so much to appreciate about Steve Enix. You know, that could be like a good 12-hour episode. So true.

You should do a two-12-hour episode on Stevie Nix. You know, I believe that some people out there would like a like 12-hour episode to kind of fall asleep too. That would be fun to try to do. I agree. But so tell me, how are we wrong about ballet and what kind of a journey are we going on? and will it involve sitting in a little creaky velvet seat while there's an orchestra, and then people go and peer down at the orchestra at intermission as if they're seals? Yes, you mean like when we went to see Giselle in Portland?

Yeah. Yeah, that's a big part of ballet sitting in a creaky seat. Incredible. Okay. What are we wrong about? Well, let's just start from the beginning. So I'm going to give you a little history of ballet. It's a long journey. This is a very ancient art form, but we will start in the, I would say, around the 16th, 17th century. So that's when something resembling ballet starts to emerge. And actually, if anyone listening is interested in a real comprehensive history of ballet, I really recommend this book, Apollo's Angels, by Jennifer Homan's, who was a professional dancer and then became a writer and has done a lot of really excellent.

writing about dance and the history of dance. But anyway, so ballet begins in the 16th, 17th century. It's a French courtly art. So it's something that all the fancy people in the French court are doing. But not all of them. It's mostly men. So we think of ballet today as being something that's like all about the cult of the ballerina. But it really starts out as this like fancy pants hobby for like little, little fancy guys at French court. I rewatched Marie Antoinette recently, and there's like a segment of Marie Antoinette that goes into her, like,

cosplay as a peasant in Petit Grinand. And then also, like, she has a show she puts on. And it kind of, this is kind of the mood of early ballet. It's like people who live in the French court, who have a lot of time on their hands, are learning this, like, special art form. But it looks really different from ballet today. The technique is really different. The positions are somewhat similar, but it's not as extreme. So there are a number of foot and

arm positions in ballet, and I'm not going to go over all of them because we don't have like a million hours. But they get their origin in this period of dance, but they're not as extreme. Like today, the ideal for standing in first position with your feet turned out is 180 degrees, which like pretty much no one actually has 180 degree turnout, but that's the ideal. And if you had it, wouldn't you just flop right over? I have to wonder. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of hyper-mobile people who take ballet, and it's actually like,

it's great to be bendy, like it looks good, but it often comes with its own, like, practical problems to have that kind of body. Yeah, so we've got these guys who are standing in first position. Their turnout is closer to 90 degrees, which is like, I think a more comfortable standing position. And they're doing these little fancy steps where they go up on their toes. But they're not even going up to what today would be considered a demi point, which is like when you go up and put all of your weight on the ball of your foot. Okay.

It's like between that and having your foot flat on the ground. So it's like a little tiny rise of the heel. Who are these fancy guys? So they have titles, what do they do for a living? Are they fancy for a living? Oh, it's like the king. Like Louis the 14th. Oh, a little fancy king guys.

Okay. Yeah, little fancy king guys. So, yeah, so they have their little heels up just slightly. They're doing these little fancy walks. And then they have like a little fancy arm flourish. And that's like the dance. This is very heelorian blackadder coded, don't you think? Yeah, totally.

That is the vibe. And it's interesting because it's like, if you look at a dancer doing this and there's a really great YouTube series from the Royal Ballet where you can actually see someone like performing these steps. Fabulous. It's really great. It's like an educational lecture where they have dancers come in from the company and perform different types of ballet throughout ballet history. You see so you see this, you see someone perform these steps and they don't really look like anything. But that is, this is where ballet begins. This is like where it all starts in there.

And this is what evolves into like what we see today on stage. Because now this like pretty superhuman thing, I think it's fair to say. Yes. And like a thing that is sort of weird that it's not in the Olympics where you're like figure skating, Olympics, sport. Yes, ballet. Not sport. Art. And you're like, where is the line between sport and art?

They both end in a art. It's very tricky. It's very confusing. Spohart. And I do consider ballet a sport, but I also will say, like, if you talk to people in the ballet world, they will have all kinds of crazy opinions about that. And they'll be like, no, it's not a sport. Don't call it a sport. It's an aesthetic art. And I'm just like, I don't know. I get real sweaty doing ballet. It feels a lot like a sport to me. Right. But it doesn't start that way, right? We've got these, we've got these little fancy guys, like the Sun King. And there's actually like this. really funny picture of Louis

the 14th doing ballet dressed up as Apollo and he has this amazing like pronged headpiece and it's it's really wild so they were getting up to some really some really interesting dance stuff and women were involved in ballet at that time

but they couldn't do as much with it because they were wearing these like enormous dresses so you couldn't see their legs but if you're a little French prince and you're wearing you know you're a little like shorts and tights, you can actually see the articulation of the leg and the foot. And so that's what it looks like early on.

And it's not as athletic, although I did watch. I've seen the Royal Ballet's video on this. And it does, the coordination of the arm and the leg does look really hard to me. So this is not a kind of dance I personally would want to do. And so this goes on until the French Revolution. Which would set ballet back a little bit, I guess. Yeah, it upsets the structure of ballet significantly because it's, you know, it's a courtly art. It's something that these fancy princes and kings are doing and they're copious free time.

It's not liberty, egalite, fraternity ballet. No, no. So what's interesting about that is that after the French Revolution disrupts ballet, men are no longer the stars of ballet, right? Because we don't like kings. Zutalur. We hate kings and we don't want to watch. But we like queens a little bit? Well, we still hate queens.

But who do we like? We like ballerinas. We like going to the opera and we like seeing ballerinas. And so it's interesting because it goes from something that's this like rarefied, aristocratic art form to something that is performed by people in the lower classes. And you see this in France. That's really cool. Yeah, you see it in Russia as well.

During this time, there's also a significant overlap between ballet and sex work. So a lot of ballet dancers are sex workers and vice versa. And it's maybe not formalized, but it's like, I don't know. I think there is a strong connection there. But what's interesting about this is that because we have toppled our king and we hate royalty, this kind of opens the door for the idea of the ballerina to grow as a concept. and women start to become stars of this art form. Yeah.

And that they have pretty dresses with jewels on them? They sure do, Sarah. That's so important. It is so important. And this leads us to the first ballerinas, the first really famous ballerinas, which include dancers like Marie Taglione, who was, she's often described as the first ballerina to go on point. I don't think that's true. I think she just kind of popularized it. And she was really good at it.

So she had these little shoes. She would go up on point in them. And what's interesting about her shoes is like, and like we can go deep on the ballet nerd stuff with me. So if I'm, if I'm getting too into the weeds, feel free to be like, that's enough now. You know, I love weeds. I want to know what exactly for anyone who doesn't know. And I think I know, but I probably have some misconceptions. This is the point of the show.

what exactly going up on point is and, you know, why it is as impressive as it is. Yeah. So point work is considered this really special part of ballet. And you have to get to a point in your body where your feet and your ankles are really prepared for it to even try it. So for anyone who starts their ballet journey, whether you're like six years old or 35, finding out that you're ready for point is really exciting. It's like an exciting moment in your ballet journey. And it's like some people really want to go on point. Some people are like, I don't really care about point.

And you can definitely have a perfectly good time dancing and never do point work. It's absolutely not a requirement. And it's kind of a risky behavior when you think about it to go on point. But yeah, so let's talk about the mechanics of point. So a point shoe is. is a very rigid shoe that is designed so that you're on your toes in the shoe. So it has something called a shank, which is this very hard sort of sole of the shoe. It's not quite the sole issue, but that's how I would describe it.

And then it has this really thick box that your foot goes into or your toes go into. And the combination of your ankle and foot strength and flexibility with the mechanics of the shoe, make it so that you can pop up and just balance only on your toes, essentially. And people always think that there's wood in the shoes or there's like a brick in the shoe or there's something in the shoe that makes it that stiff and rigid and, you know, kind of like a tool of torture. But actually, it's just made out of essentially like paper, machet material and satin. That's got a bow on top.

And it's got a bow on top. It's very shiny. So that's how it works, is you just, you do a million exercises to strengthen your toes and your ankles and the little teeny tiny muscles in your feet. And then once you do that, you can manipulate this really rigid shoe so that you can go up and you can balance on your toes. I do point work. I love point work. I think it's really fun. It's also something that can be dangerous if you do it too early or without correct superiors.

supervision. Like, I get really stressed out when I see people buying point shoes on Amazon and just like playing with them because if you put them on without the correct alignment or technique, you actually, you can do some damage. I mean, and I've even been in classes where people have fallen off a point and had had a bad time. So it is something to be careful of, but it is French fry when you should have pizza. You're going to have a bad time. Yes, it's much like that. Well, does it hurt to do it? You know what? My talks. trait is I don't think it hurts. Like, it's not a popular opinion to Sharon Bellet class.

I don't think it hurts. I think if you're in the wrong shoe, it hurts. Okay. But I have done point for a couple years, and it hurt at first, but it hurt because I was in the wrong shoe. And then when I got fitted with a different shoe, and fitting is like its whole other thing. You have to, like, you have to go to a dance store, and you just, like try on a million shoes and you see what works for your feet. And I was in a really bad

shoe for a while that was just like not good for my feet. And so it did hurt to go on point. But then as soon as I got the shoe that I currently am in, I was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. It shouldn't be like little acute pain on your toes. It should actually sort of feel like, I think of it as like a really tight hug around your toes, around your feet. And so it's like. I wouldn't have guessed that. That's really. I don't know. I love that description. It's like a really, or maybe a handshake, it's like, you know, when someone has a really firm handshake, it's like that.

You're having a handshake with gravity. Yeah. What do you think of Rose doing that in Titanic? Isn't that a bit bonkers? Oh, yeah. It's not possible. That wouldn't have worked. Right.

Because she would have been on like, you know, an area the size of like a pin. Also, you need the shoes to go on point. Right. She's barefoot. It would not have worked. I have to say like... And drunk. I like that. I like that scene a lot. It doesn't bother me that it is not possible. Yeah, it's a great scene, but it's completely... It's like, okay, James Cameron. All right.

But it's not real. It's like how in Final Destination 5, they have an acupuncture-related death where they're like, we are not even going to look up acupuncture because it'll ruin our fun idea that it's like having fish hooks stuck in your body. And then if you like fall on them, you're like, oh, no, all these acupuncture needles are killing me. And it's like in reality, it would be like a slight tickling sensation. Yeah, acupuncture needles, I really can't think of a worse weapon, you know? Right. Acupuncture is like one of the least painful things I can think of, actually. It's really nice to get acupuncture.

Just lie on a table chilling out with a very slight tickling sensation. Yeah. Okay. So it's something that you train your body for and that like training makes possible, which I guess is kind of an initial you're wrong about because I think that, you know, one of the things that makes ballet such a sort of treasured font of media, including such great films, the center stage, etc. Yes.

Is this idea that like ballet is a discipline where the secret ingredient is pain. Yeah. Which, you know, I think can be true of any art formed on the wrong way. And I'm sure that we're going to have tales of that as well. But also the idea that something worth doing must be intrinsically really hard on your body. It feels like an idea that we're overly attached to in a bigger way. I think so, too. I mean, I have a teacher that I work with a lot. And one of the things that she always says in class is, if it hurts, don't do it. She's a ballet. teacher. She's a very old school, Balanchine-trained teacher, and she says that all the time. And I think that is actually a really important distinction, because I don't think point work should be painful.

I think it's uncomfortable. It's a visceral feeling, but it doesn't hurt. Like, for me, if I'm in pain in a dance class, that means something's probably wrong. That means, like, maybe back off and, like, go see a PT. So I think that there is this idea that, like, Ballet, is pain, ballet is suffering, ballerinas are mean and they hate each other and they put glass in each other's point shoes. And like, I'm sure that happens somewhere. But in my experience, especially, if you're doing this as a hobby, you tend to be around just like the nicest, most pleasant people who will push you. You know, it's hard. It's hard work. But it's not to me, it's like, when I think about anything athletic, it should be uncomfortable, but it should never be unsafe. And

you should feel like you're pushing yourself, but it shouldn't be, I don't think it should be painful, really, ever. No, yeah. And certainly, you know, a lot of us have been brought up on the idea that if it's worth doing, it should be painful, you know, and that's, I think, such a dangerous idea right across the board. Okay, and so how does it evolve? So we have this first kind of point popularizer now that I may even explain it. Yeah.

How do things progress? So Marie Tagliani, she dances. on point and she's kind of amazing because I just described the mechanics of point shoes to you. And part of what makes point shoes work is they have this really rigid shank that helps you get up over the box. But she didn't have that in her point shoes. Her point shoes were softer. And so she actually, if anyone could do the thing that happens in Titanic, it's Marie Tyjani. And the reason she could do that was just because her leg muscles and her ankle muscles and her foot muscles were so strong. She could just kind of like push herself up to point. But that is, that is an exceptional

thing. She kind of popularizes it. And then point becomes much more integrated into ballet technique more broadly. And the shoes evolve, which means that we get this really like ethereal effect. When you go up on point, it kind of looks like you're floating, right? And so this becomes a real trope in the romantic ballets that begin around like the 19th century like Giselle is a romantic ballet. So we've seen this happen where you have people dancing on stage, usually the court of ballet women and they're on point. And the effect that it gives is this sort of ethereal floating effect that makes them

look sort of like their spirits or their angels or their fairies. And you will see that motif carried through a lot of the ballets from. this era, including Giselle, where we see the Willys, right? These, like, incredible, like, vengeful women who murder men in the woods by forcing them to dance. Yeah. So that is, that is where that comes from is, like, there is this discovery that that has this really sort of magical quality. And then we get this sort of spate of these magical stories about women who are, like, enchanted or cursed, or they're dead or their ghosts. You know, we get shades, we get silfs. We get fairies.

I mean, what's better than making a man dance himself to death, I ask you? Listen, I think Giselle is really underrated ballet. I really enjoyed it. We saw it together not too long ago. It's fun, right? You want to see it twice. Yeah. And it's really, I love watching the willies.

They're so powerful. And they're just these women dancing and these romantic tutus. Sometimes they have, like, dorky little wings on, which I love. I love the dorky little wings. You know, I saw Jezelle recently. I saw the P&B version that they did last season. And there's this scene at the beginning of the second act where Mirta, who is like the queen of these undead brides, comes out on stage. And the P&B production has all this mist in it.

They really love mist at P&B. There's a lot of mist in Swan Lake, too. But she comes out and she's on point and she's doing boress where she's like, it's hard to describe a beret, but it's like you're on point, but then you're taking these little tiny steps, so you're moving along. And it almost looked like she was on some kind of, like, she was being wheeled on something or something

because it was so smooth. And the action of it is so, like, when it's done that beautifully and smoothly, it really does look otherworldly. And so I often think about this era of ballet and the people who would go to see it. And one of the things that I've heard is that the Willys in the original productions of Giselle,

like, were intended to be, really scary and people were afraid of them because of how they looked on stage. That's so cool. So it was like horror. Yeah. Like horror entertainment potentially. Yeah, it's absolutely, it's uncanny. It's horror-coded. So it's funny because so many ballets we see are about these like, you know, women in peril or like princesses or like benevolent fairies, but there is this streak. of sort of like horror-coded darkness in ballet that I think is really, like if you're a horror fan has a lot to offer. Yeah. And then what kind of people are doing it as things progress in this

way? So we have sort of the class shift that happens after the French Revolution continues into this period. And then it starts to get professionalized. So you see things like George Ballantin comes to America and founds the School of American Ballet and New York City Ballet. And there are these sort of key teachers who emerge earlier than that, like Chiquetti and Faganova are two of them. And so ballet becomes sort of popularized. It becomes more rarefied. It kind of, I think in a weird way, it kind of circles back to the aristocratic beginnings where it becomes this exclusive, inaccessible, expensive thing to engage with. And that's kind of where we are now. But I do think what's also important to talk about is like how it progresses in the 20th century. So the technique

changes a lot. The technique gets more and more extreme and athletic, I would say. Balanchine is considered kind of the father of American ballet. And I'm kind of mid on Balanchine, which is like a controversial opinion in the dance world. Like I love watching Balanchine because the style is really, it's really fast and athletic. But also, like, I think he's a figure who if he were alive today would be me-tued because he just, like, had so many, like, iffy interactions with women who he worked with during his career. And most companies perform George Balanchines the Nutcracker. Yes. Almost every company that you encounter will perform Balanchine's Nutcracker, which, and that's kind of, like, part of the Balanchine thing that I'm a little, I don't love because I feel like it becomes

this real like uniformity where everybody is doing balancing and there's just like less variety overall in American ballet companies because of that. Yeah. Well, and as we've discussed, it's very interesting because I think the number is, you know, typically that like a ballet company will make like 70% of its returns from the nutcracker or something like that. Yeah. And it's just so interesting that like ballet is something that culturally in the United States we sort of like don't really engage with at other times of year and then suddenly at Christmas we're like, oh my God, we have got to see the nutcracker. Yeah. The nutcracker is the cash cow for any any ballet company. And I love the nutcracker, but it's such a weird thing to be that. It's so

weird. The nutcracker is such a weird ballet. It's about a nutcracker. Yeah. It's very weird. It's It's very weird. And you know what? I think the Balanchine version is weird. Like, I don't love the Balanchine Nutcracker. It is not my favorite Nutcracker. And is that, and are the others, like, is the difference in the choreography? Or how does that work? So, okay, well, Balanchine's choreography is really tightly controlled by the Balanchine Trust. So you basically have to get permission to do anything Balanchine. And then it's like, you got to do all the steps as prescribed. And this is actually interesting because a lot of nutcrackers have, including the Balanchine Nutcracker, have pretty nasty racist elements in them. Right. Like more than you would think going into it

without knowing anything about it. And then you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's like, that's a lot. You're like, I'm seeing a fever dream of dancing candy. Why is it so racist? Like, what's going on? It's like when you're looking at slot machines and you're like, why must the slot machines? be racist. They're already, you know, stealing everyone's money and surrounded by cigarette smoke. Isn't that enough? Yeah, right? Why must they be gaish? Yeah. So there was this thing that happened recently. There's, I mean, I feel like in the past decade, there's been sort of a sense of reassessing these, um, the things about ballet that are bad and like need to be reconsidered, which I think are numerous. Like, I love ballet. I think ballet needs to change in many ways. But there was this thing that happened with Pacific Northwest

Ballet in Seattle, where I live, where one of the things that Peter Bull, their artistic director, did when he took over, was that he retired their older ballet production, which is honestly my favorite ballet, and it had set design by Maurice Sundek, which was so cool. And you can still see it. Like, there is a DVD version you can find that's really good. And I would encourage people to seek it out, if you're curious. What ballet is it? It's the Nutcracker. Oh, yeah.

Okay. And it's much, it's like the narrative is just all about, it's about Clara, the heroine of the Nutcracker, but it's kind of about her, like, it's kind of like in the night kitchen for girls. It's like she's exploring her, like feelings of growing up, you know, and like wanting to like fall in love and explore her identity. It's like very cool. I love it. Well, that sounds much better because a balancing one is like she goes on a date with zero chemistry

and learns about a bunch of imports. Yes. Exactly. That is the plot of it. And then at the end, they do get to get into like a magical sleigh and fly up into the sky. So that's cool. Yeah.

But it's a lot. It's a lot to get there. You know, it's a lot of like, it's a lot of kid dancing. And then it's like she gets to watch this other, you know, this sugar plum lady and her boyfriend. And it's like, well.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's just like, it's not an emotionally rich narrative. No, yeah, there's not a lot happening. It's a lot of, and it's a lot of kid dancing, which, like, I'm happy to watch kids dance if I know them. Like, if you are my niece or nephew and you have a ballet recital. But we're just not going to know the majority of these kids. Yeah.

Like, I'm in the front row for that kind of thing. But, like, I don't like watching kid dancing because when I go to the ballet, I want to see dancing that I personally can't do. I want to be blown away with it. Like, I want to see. Yeah, that's like how I feel about restaurants where I'm like, you know, if I'm like, I could have put too much salt on this all by myself. Yeah, it's like you don't need to see that. You don't need to pay money to see that.

Like, we have weird little dances in a flat shoes at home, you know. I would really like to see them do Swan Lake and it's just like a bunch of 12-year-olds doing all of the parts. That would be kind of fun, actually. but I think very hard for them. Swan Lake is, oh, is a real commitment. We'll modify it. Yeah. Well, you can always modify it.

That's the other thing to know about this. Like, you can always, and there's a lot of modifying that goes on in recreational dance world because, like, not a lot of us can do Fuete turns on point. Some people can, but I am not at that phase in my ballet career. What kind of a turn is that? That is a, so Fuete is like a whipped turn. That's what it means. And it's like.

It's like you do a turn and you kind of like kick your foot out and the foot moves around with you. It's hard to describe. Wow. But there's a sequence in Swan Lake where the lead ballerina performs 32 foetes. Oh my God. One after the other. And it's really amazing. And it's also really hard.

And there are plenty of professional ballerinas who like can't do it. Now, does your inner ear like adjust to spinning around in your experience? Does it adjust? I think that you get more accustomed to spitting around. Like, the first time you do it, you're like, this feels wrong. I don't like this. I mean, at least that's how it feels for me. Like, the first time I tried turning, I was just like, how am I even going to get around?

Do you just, like, still get dizzy, but you can deal with it personally? I think you just get used to being kind of dizzy. Like, I think that's... I think that's the answer to so many questions in life. You're like, no, it still happens. you just get used to it happening. It's so much of ballet is like that. It's like just learning to tolerate certain sensations in your body

without being like, this is weird. Like, you know, it's not normal to be standing on your toes. And then the first time you go up on point, you're like, I'm never getting away from the bar. This is really scary. But then you gradually, it starts to feel more normal in your body. And then it's like you can get away from the bar. And then you can do two-footed balances.

And then you can do one-footed balances. And a lot of it, is kind of like developing your tolerance for sensations. Again, like, I don't think ballet should be painful, but it's unnatural for sure. You're in weird positions. And so I think a great deal of ballet training is just like learning how to stand in the weird positions correctly and then to kind of like get your brain and your body to the point where they're like, okay, I'm safe here.

I can be in this position and it'll be okay. Yeah. And then how does our evolution keep happening, like culturally and in terms of, yeah, because then I get you're saying it becomes like much more athletic, which I guess is also like, I've looked a little bit in the past at the history of gymnastics and like, in like, I don't know, the 20s, you're like, that's gymnastics. Like it's kind of like standing there doing like a Superman pose like, I'm a gymnast. Yeah.

The athleticism really increases. The jumps get higher. The extensions get. higher. Everything gets higher. Yeah, you see a lot of like leg next to face happening. You're like, how did you get your leg up there? But they did. It's amazing. And so the technique just becomes much more athletic. And then also like one of the things that happens that I think is depressing and wrong is that there also begins to be this change in the body types that you see when you go to ballet. If you look at ballerinas from Marie Taglione's era, they don't look

like the dancers of today. Like, they'll often have small waists, but it's because they were corseted when they danced. So you're not looking at a natural waist. They have really muscular legs, but they tend to have them like a softer look. You know, they look like adult women. And honestly, like when I see dancers perform,

I like to see dancers who look like adults because, I don't know. I don't want to feel like I'm watching someone who's like artificially forcing themselves to maintain like a prepubescent body. Like I think that's really disturbing. And so if you look at ballet dancers from the past, they don't have this like really willowy, skinny build. They just kind of look like regular ladies. And then with Balanchine's introduction into American ballet, there begins to be this new ideal of dancers who are incredibly skinny, slightly taller, and have like long, long limbs and sort of in like a visible sternum. And I don't love that.

Why the sternum? Why is so much love for the sternum? I don't know because the thing about that is it's not rooted in biomechanics at all. Like there are certain things that can help you physically when you dance, but none of them are about body size. You know, some people have hypermobility that makes some things harder and something's easier. Having really archy feet is something that's really prized.

Like if you have a foot that can bend, like a banana, people just go crazy for that. And they're called banana feet. That should be a young adult book about ballet banana feet. Banana feet, yeah. Wouldn't that be good? About someone learning to dance on their banana feet because it's really hard. I don't have banana feet.

My name's Clara, but everyone calls me banana feet. Because I have the archiest feet in Miss Prince's ballet class. But the problem is, I'd rather be rollerblading. published in 1992 by Scholastic Books. Yeah, with the apple. Yes, 100%. Oh, Scholastic. Yeah.

I know that book fair was a racket, but oh, what a racket it was. The best racket of our lives. I loved the Scholastic Book Fair. It smelled amazing. In the school auditorium? I wish they had that now, still. I would go. I know.

They should have that at workplaces. You know, people would get into that. You can get adults to read. I would really like that. All right. So we have something that, like, in a way that's probably familiar to a lot of disciplines, becoming transformed into something that, like, prizes certain body types and there being inevitable consequences to that.

And, like, what forces do you think are, like, causing that to happen culturally, you know, because that can be, like, an idea that some guy has. But why do you think this is catching on in sexual way? Well, I think part of it is. is just that during the period of time when Balanchine is most influential, is around the time that, like, body ideals do start to change, and thinness becomes something that is, like, on trend. And then I would also say, like, Balanchine had a tremendous amount of influence

over the development of American ballet, and he tended to, I mean, one of the reasons I say he would be Me Too today was that he would routinely, like, have affairs with his dancers, and he married three of his dancers. at different times. And so he would kind of like, I think he had a type. And this was the type he was going for. And then he also had this idea of what aesthetically he wanted his ballets to look like. And then it's like if you have the person that's going to be referred to as like the father of American ballet making these choices, like that's the body type that starts to get prized.

And it's really a shame because it's like some, it's just some guy. It's just some guy. hit him with your car. It's just some guy. And it's also like, you know, as much as I appreciate Balanchine's contributions to choreography, and I do, you know, he's not always my favorite. God forbid you be accused of not appreciating his contributions to choreography. Listen, you got to be careful what you say about Balanchine.

He's like, he's like Taylor Swift and that his fans are scary. So, anyway. Listen, I've been a big defender of Taylor Swift. I think she's misunderstood. But honey, having a wedding in Madison Square Garden for no flipping reason? I really have questions. That was weird. What was that about?

And the thing they had on the screen outside that said just T&T married, I truly, I truly thought it was AT&T spawncon. I was like, what's, what are you guys doing? I mean, the thing about Taylor Swift is that she's so famous and there's so many fan theories about her that by definition, 95% of them are contradicting each other. And it's just, you know, that's a weird thing to be. It's like ceasing to be a person and being like a country or something. Yeah, like a business entity. Yeah. But you know what?

If you're going to have your wedding at Madison Square Garden, make it a big concert. Like I think Sly from Sly and the Family Stone did. So, yeah, and there's just, I mean, this is a much bigger question than we have time for, but why the heck not? Do you think that the sort of the little, the underfed body type begins to be prized for women kind of in the middle of the 20th century generally? And if so, why? I think it does, right?

I mean... I'm thinking about Twiggy. I'm thinking about Twiggy. I'm thinking about the narrow wastes on vintage dressings. from the 50s and 60s. I'm thinking about the constrictive garments you would have to wear under those. Yeah, the girdle

era. How, you know, if you have a mom who was an adolescent in the 60s, she probably wore a girdle. It's so disturbing. I know. They went through so much that we never had to experience. My mom used to iron her hair.

That's a separate topic, but that's, I mean, with an iron, like for clothes. Yeah. That poor woman. Ironing her hair. Her poor hair. Yeah. No, but I think, I think it's true because if you look at clothes from, say, the 1940s, the silhouettes tend to be curvier. And then when you get into, like, the 50s and 60s and beyond, it's like, and also like, well, the flapper era, like, long precedes that. But, you know, it's like, we go in and out of these things. But, yeah, you get, you get people like Twiggy and you get this, like, prizing of extreme thinness.

and like, you know, the mini skirt and these like increasingly small articles of clothing. Yeah. And starting to see thinness as health in a way that I think we haven't really doing, been doing before historically, because, you know, before, right, there was really the idea that if a kid was skinny, you would fatten them up, you would give them like butter sandwiches or something like that. And that if a woman was skinny, that was bad because it meant she might not have childbearing ability. But there's like, I'm sure I've told you about that. this before, but I am enduringly obsessed with the marketing around Tab, which was I think the first diet soda.

Yes. It was like a cola. It came out in I think the early 60s, mid-60s. But there's this tab ad that feels like it was cooked up by Don Draper himself that has this, like, haunting jingle that's about how when you're not with him, you're going to be in his mind. You're going to be a mind sticker. That's the slogan, be a mind sticker. Because you got to drink tab.

You got to keep your shape and shape with tab. To be a mind sticker. Yeah, you got to drink the zero calorie soda to keep your shape and shape. The shape is that you're having is that you're not having any calories. Because if you're not a mind sticker, I'll forget about you and he's at work and he'll have sex with someone else, presumably. Wow. It doesn't spell it out, but that's the implication.

It's like drink for the last. Love of God, drink tab. Your husband will forget you if you gain an ounce. God forbid you should win him over with your personality, you know? No. That's really depressing. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. And you do feel like, you know, the media of Mid-Sanctuary America is so much of men and women eyeing each other across this massive gender no man's land and looking at each other

like livestock. And then when people are nostalgic for that, it's like, I wouldn't bother. Yeah. We're doing a great job getting as far away from that as we possibly can, I really think. Yeah. And I think when we talk about this like body ideal in ballet, it's like it's a reflection of that culture. It's not separate from it.

Because there's nothing biomechanical in ballet that means that someone has to be thin to do it. Like that's not real. I think people maybe think that. but it's just not true. I feel like this is your big bombshell of this episode, unless you have a bigger one for later. No, I think this is it. I think this is the heart of it.

And it's something that I wish more people understood because it's like ballet is a reflection of the culture and the time in which it's made. It's been around for a very long time. It's been through so many different body ideals and trends. You know, it's like it went from being something that was popularized by like, you know, little fancy boys in court.

And now it's like, you know, the domain of these like incredible, like, Amazon-esque ballerinas. And I think the idea that it's separate from culture is wrong. And so, you know, one of the things that was a big bombshell for me personally when I started to go to ballet class was I had only seen professional ballet up to that point. Like I had only gone to see organ ballet theater or Pacific Northwest Ballet. And when you go to see professional ballet companies, you're going to see. a certain body type, right? And so you're going to get the impression that that is who does ballet. That's the only person who can do ballet. That's what you have to look like to do ballet. And then when I started going to these recreational classes, I realized it wasn't true because I remember

going to class and looking around the room and realizing that there was actually a huge diversity of body types and gender expression and all kinds of, you know, people of different life experiences who you don't typically see on stage. And I will say even today, like, whenever I'm in an open ballet class, the person with the best technique is almost never the smallest person in the room. It's often like a kind of harried mom of three on her day off, you know, and who just looks like a normal lady if you saw her on the street. Which is true of skating as well, frequently, I would say, and, you know, not as someone who skates a ton, but I will say, I will be sad. for the rest of my life about the end of Lloyd Center,

because we've lost the only skating rink in Portland and in the Portland area. That's so awful. And that was such an amazing place for the people who skated and loved skating. And also for people like me who love to watch people skate, much like Carol Schultz, also love to watch people skate. And also was a good skater and played hockey and also loved rollerblades. And I just probably more people should know that too. But just like you would see people at the Lloyd Center rank who just like looked like that.

They were on their lunch break from working at Staples. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And we're just like skating at the storm. We're just like people from all walks of life and all these different body types and people who you would not like see cast in like the skating movie. But who are just like skating their asses off, you know, to use it in the footloose sense. Yeah.

You know, I think part of this is a ballet problem. Right. It's like when you see a company and everyone looks a certain way, it's not because like ballet gave them that body type or because they had to look like that to do ballet. It's because the company wanted people who looked like that to be in the company. It's an aesthetic choice. It's always an aesthetic choice. And what's that about the sort of the aesthetics of like the body doing the dance? Yeah. And do people feel they have a right to defend that reasoning? They do. I think it's changing. Historically, there's been a huge emphasis on the idea of the line, which is like the lines that your body makes when you're doing ballet. And there's this myth that your lines are easier to see if you're thin. But I don't think that's true. You know, it's like, I have eyes. I can see someone's technique. I think the naked eye can probably see a not thin person dancing. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you, like, I take with people who have incredible technique who don't look like that, right? Like, who don't fit that ideal. And I can see them just fine. And I'm often like, I'm jealous of that person.

Like, that person has amazing technique, right? Not in a bad way, but in a way that, like, inspires me. And you can see it. Like, if someone has good technique, the technique will come through. It doesn't matter what you look like. Right. And so that to me is just kind of like one of the great big lies that people who gatekeep ballet They love to tell themselves.

It's like, oh, well, we need thin people so we can see the line better. No, you can see the line on anyone. If you have the right training, you can have good lines. It's like, and if you're just a thin person who's badly trained, you're not going to have good lines. That's really what it's about. And then the other thing I would say is there is this emphasis on the corda ballet, which is the, it translates directly into body of the ballet.

This is like the lowest rank in most classical ballet companies. it's the sort of group of women that you will see on stage throughout a story ballet like Swan Lake or Giselle. They kind of are there to express the themes and the emotions of the ballet. So that's something you really see in Swan Lake with the Cord of Ballet. And they're often asked to do uniform movements as part of this choreography. And so one of the arguments I have heard for having like aesthetic uniformity among your dancers is so that the court of ballet looks like they match. But that is a huge problem because that also means that, like, I have heard that used as a justification for having, like, not very diverse ballet companies, right?

Right. And, you know, and why do they need to match? Yeah. Is my next question after that? Well, they don't need to match. And my response to that is, like, it's the same with the line. It's like, I don't need the people I'm watching on stage to look. identical. I need them to all have good technique. I need them to be unified by their technique. And so if you're watching a professional dancers, they all have good technique. It doesn't matter what they look like. Like they're going to look uniform because of that, because of their training. And so this even extends to things like, shoe color and tight color. For a long time, you could only get pink point shoes, which if you are a dancer of color, that breaks your line. Right. So you're being kept up.

of the, I want to call it the sport. You're being kept out of the art by the aesthetics the art has chosen for itself. Or you're being asked to wear pink tights and pink shoes and fit into this mold that is this white supremacist aesthetic. Yeah, which is like specifically designed to not fit you. Yeah. And so the part of this that I have found the most like troubling is when I hear justifications for like not having a diverse company that's like, okay, well, everybody needs to match. And then you're also telling people of color that they can only wear pink tights and pink in pink shoes, like make it make sense.

You know, it's not about the uniformity. It's about excluding people. So I think this is where this aesthetic choice comes from. But I think it's also like, if you're someone who has the training and has the technique, it's going to be visible no matter what. And we don't need to be like cramming people into boxes because of that. And actually, like, I will say I would rather watch someone. who maybe doesn't look like they have perfect technique or doesn't look like they fit a perfect ballet ideal because often those dancers are more interesting anyway.

Like they have an interesting quality that's fun to watch. Right. Well, and why do you think that these standards can find their way to a sport, a sport or an art form and just get so deep in there that no one even thinks to question it? I mean, is that what you think has become of ballet since these kind of like, mid-sanguary balancing days. Yeah, I mean, I think that now, I will say, like, this is less true in recreational spaces. I actually think recreational spaces are kind of saving ballet from itself right now.

Yeah, talk about that. Yeah, so I guess what I would want to talk about in regards to that is like, okay, so I take class every week at a studio in Seattle that is extremely body positive and welcoming and friendly, queer friendly, like all the things you, like, probably don't associate with ballet you will find in that studio. And we have a show that we put on twice a year where they basically, like, anyone who takes class at the studio can register and you work with a choreographer and they, like, set a new piece on you in a group and then you perform. And it's really interesting to go see that show because it's the only time in my life, I feel like, I mean, outside of

certain like contemporary dance spaces like I should caveat this heavily but it's if you're seeing ballet like this is one of the only times I feel like I get to see ballet where it's like a huge variety of body types on stage life experience gender expression identity things like that and it's really powerful it's like really powerful to see that and it's funny because it's like when I describe it to my friends and family who come see it it sounds like it's going to be kind of like a tragic adult ballet recital. But it's funny. It sells out every year. And part of that is because there's a lot of like very supportive like dance boyfriends and husbands and friends and family members and partners who come to see the show. But I think also part of it is that there's something really compelling

about seeing someone who looks like you dancing. You know, it's like you can see yourself in those people. And it's really moving. You know, I think, and it's something that you only see. You know, I think, and it's something that you only see right now, I think you tend to see it more in amateur dance than professional because people who come to amateur dance tend to not have the same background. Or they, you know, maybe they were pursuing something professional when they were younger, but like somewhere along the way they fell off of it or got kicked out. And so you're getting to see people who are there because they love it. And it's not something that has any kind of like real gatekeeping around it.

Whereas I feel like in the professional ballet world, there is this real culture of like, obedience and standing in line and like being polite and following instructions and things like that. And I think that makes it really easy for these really harmful dynamics to emerge and be perpetuated because there's not a lot of questioning of what's going on. What do you wish that people knew that you think they, you know, they have misconceptions about? And I've been talking about that this whole time. But what do you really wish people knew? I wish people knew that if, if you, if you, want to do ballet, ballet is for you. And I think that there's this idea that, you know, like we're saying, like you have to look a certain way, you have to have had a certain life

experience, you have to be young. But it's not true. Like none of that is true. You can start at any age and it can just be part of your life. I came to it. I came to it extremely late. Like I didn't start until I was almost 30. And it was really hard, but there was just something about it that I felt like I connected with as soon as I stepped into a studio for the first time. And I was like, oh, okay, like, this is a thing that I'm going to be doing. And I think that a lot of people dream of doing ballet as children, but like maybe they can't afford lessons or they're just like are not the right life circumstances to do it. And I do think that there are these like really incredible communities where you can start as an adult and you can make progress and you can grow and

You can, like, discover things about yourself and you can wear a tutu. You can go on point. Like, all of these things are possible. It's not easy. It's hard. It takes a lot of, like, discipline and effort. But I think that if I always tell people, like, if you have a ballet dream, you can do it. You know, like, if I can do it with no dance training when I was 30, like, you can also do it.

And it's available to you and you should feel free to pursue it or try it and not to feel like it's something that is only for the people who have been doing it since they were three. Why do you think, because this is something that I think has held me back and I think is holding back a lot of people. Why do you think we have this idea that we owe excellence to ourselves or the world or somebody or something, you know, this idea that if we're going to pursue something, we have to be great at it or become great at it or we have to be gifted in some way, even though it's kind of, you know, makes a little less sense the thing about being gifted as an adult. But maybe this is a bit of a millennial fixation because, I don't know, the gifted

child industries were at their height when we were growing up possibly. Because I think maybe we maybe want to dismiss that feeling in ourselves and call it ecomania. But really, I think it's the idea, not that we even need or want to be particularly great at something, but that if we're not great at something someone will be mad at us for spending time on it. Oh, yeah. That really resonates with me. I feel like I have spent like the bulk of my early adulthood kind of reckoning with my own perfectionist tendencies. And I remember like growing up, if I wasn't good at something instantly, I didn't want to do it. It was like, this is like why I don't play board games, right? It's like, also because I can't listen to the instructions. But I have some real.

perfectionist tendencies. And ballet was actually the first thing I ever did where I tried it. And I was like, I am objectively very bad at this, but I was curious enough to keep going. I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm bad at this, but I want to get better. And I guess I have to be bad at it if I'm going to get better at it. And it's interesting because it was like, people always talk about ballet is this thing that like, you know, it's your people are so perfectionistic about it. And I think that's probably true. I know for me, like, I'm always want to get better. Like, I always want to learn more. But I also think like it forced me to really reckon with my perfectionism because I realized that if I was clinging to my perfectionism so tightly that I wasn't even like willing to try and like

feel silly and be bad at something, then I would like be missing out. So that's one thing that I've taken from ballet that has nothing to do with ballet, which is just like, I think it's really an important life skill to be able to be bad at something. And like, stick with it because something about it feels intriguing to you. Yeah. Or to choose what you like, regardless of your ability to be like to buy it in return. Yeah. And I had a friend recently who asked me, like, she was thinking about exploring dance classes and I'm always like such an event. for it. But we were talking about it. And she was kind of like, well, you know, like how do I don't really know if I want to do it. And I was like, well, you don't have to make a decision. Like you can just go and try it and see how it feels in your body. And if you, if you feel some sort of like spark or connection with it, then that's your answer. If you go and you're like, you know what? I don't want to stare at myself in a mirror for 90 minutes and this feels bad to me, then don't do it. Right? If it hurts, don't do it. But I think to me, there's been so much value in just like

doing something that I'm not naturally good at and seeing that you can get better at it. And also, like, I will say I came to ballet after I had been a distance runner for a long time. And I was a good distance runner. It's something that does come more naturally to me. But I had a really unhealthy relationship to it sometimes because I was so competitive and I was so anxious about it. And it was such a trigger for my anxiety and my perfectionism. And what's interesting is, like, ballet sort of counterintuitively, I came to it and I was like, well, I guess I can only be curious about this because, like, I'm not going to pick it up quickly. It's going to be a struggle, but I really want to do it. And in that way, it was something that actually, like, helped me realize

that I could have a physical and artistic practice that I didn't have to be good at and that I could do just for fun. And it's interesting. It's like there's that quote about beginner's mind that's like there are many possibilities in the mind of a beginner, but there are less when you've mastered something that's like a butchering of it, but that's largely the quote. And what's interesting about ballet is I think that's actually not true. Like I think when you're beginning, you can't see the possibilities. You just have to kind of like trust. And then the more you do it, the more possibilities emerge. But I do think that like if you feel that little spark, it's worth pursuing because you can't know where it's going to go when you first start out.

But I think if you trust it, it will take you somewhere really unexpected and interesting. And it's satisfying to go on that journey. I think that with the rise of more interest in recreational dance, people are really challenging those norms and those ideas and showing that there's like a different way to do it that's more welcoming and healthy and, you know, a space that is evolving, right? Like ballet is an old art. It's been around for a long time. And I think it's evolving whether people want it to evolve or not.

Yeah. Just like skating. Yes. Just like skating. Just like our blade angels, you know. They tried to hold back the tide of queer skaters and lo they could not. Well, and lo, they were punished because... Punished by excellence.

Punished by excellence. We have a glut of fantastic queer skaters. And, like, I would even say, like, that is showing up in the ballet world too. Like, we're more and more we're having, we're seeing queer themes in, in ballets that are being produced everywhere and more of these challenges to its old,

really gendered standards. So I think we're in a really exciting time. And I think that, you know, I think that Timothy Shalame is not totally wrong about ballet. Like, I think that as much as, like, people were upset by what you said. Yeah. I feel like we were more annoyed with him generally at that point. And then he said something that allowed us to be like, hey, how dare you? That was way out of line. And also you're very annoying right now. Yeah. But like I think that I think there is some concern. Like if you read the Jennifer Holman's book, there's some concern that like ballet is over and dying and dead. And I'm just like, I think maybe the bad parts of it could be. And then we could take it from there. What if the parts of it?

it that are harmful and dangerous and cause eating disorders could be allowed to die quietly or loudly if need be. And then we could like do the fun parts. Yeah. Yeah. I think we see it in gymnastics too. Like I think we are seeing much healthier norms develop in gymnastics where we're seeing older, older gymnasts, healthier gymnasts who are succeeding and they're not like forced to be little girls forever. And yeah. So I think all of these very feminine coded. sports. Like they're shifting and I think they're shifting in really positive ways that are only going to bring more people into them because it's like when you realize that ballet is for you, it can be life changing. And then it's just it's like the sport changes too. And I think that sports are supposed to

evolve. Right. And they don't have to be defined forever by the people who have used them to abuse their power and abuse the, you know, often disenfranchised girls. who are doing them. Yeah. There's an episode to be done about Carrie Strug at the Atlanta Olympics and, you know, landing a vault onto a sprained ankle because there's a twist there, because she didn't need to do it. But they made her do it anyway.

Why? Yeah, I know. Like, we already had the win. It was already in the bag. And it's possible for it to have been, like, confusing at the time or kind of a margin call. But the point is, like, she had to go re-enged. and injury by doing a fault onto it. And she did it because she had to because they told her to.

I know. Well, and that goes into the obedience culture, right? It's like this idea that like you, you have to sacrifice everything, including your body for this thing that you're doing. And it's, I'm always like what for what though? Because when I go see ballet or gymnastics or figure skating, I would much rather see people who aren't traumatized. Yeah, I don't want to see someone who's, like, injured mentally and physically struggling through a routine they don't want to do.

Like, I want to see someone like Alyssa Liu who, like, exudes joy when she skates, you know, and you're like, oh, she wants to be there. She's there because she wants to be. Right. That was a moment that really blew my mind where it was, it was this beautiful, joyful skate. And that was what everybody said about it was right. They'd never seen someone look so happy. Yeah. Doing an Olympic free skate.

And then it felt like this moment where it was like, wait, wow. yeah, we haven't seen that. Why didn't we think to expect to maybe see that? And then it felt like, I hope, skating officials were like, oh, do people like that? Yeah. Yeah. And it turns out they do. Turns out we do.

We really like that. Yeah. And I think maybe that's like the revelation I'm going to take from this is that ballet, skating, gymnastics, like these things we've mentioned and like plenty of others. Like these are institutions that have had and deserve to have major scandals and that also people within these worlds have tried to cover up for way too long out of the belief that they needed to protect the discipline by hiding the abuses of power within it. And that's not true.

The truth is that if the truth comes out, then the essence of what the thing is gets to be a much bigger part of how we experience it. and something that has come to be defined by abuses of power doesn't have to necessarily stay that way. Like, what a great idea. Right. And then it also means that, like, for the athletes, it's healthier, right? It's better for them.

It's a safer training environment. And it's also better for those of us who love these art forms and these sports. Yeah. To feel like they are more values aligned when we see them. Right. Because people actually like for their entertainment to involve people who are happy to be doing what they're doing, which seems to get lost in the mix sometimes. Yeah, and that's mainly, that's often why people are drawn to these sports in the first place. It's like,

you don't, you don't spend eight hours a day in a ballet studio because you're kind of mid on ballet, you know. Yeah, I mean, something, something drew you to it. Well, I mean, maybe that happens. I don't know. Happened to Maureen. Oh, it really did. Yeah. She had the feet, but not the heart. She didn't have the heart. Sometimes he got the feet, but not the heart. Sometimes he got the heart, but not the feet. I say, let your heart decide. Your feet can, I don't know, feet can go in your shoes.

Listen, feet can also be trained. So if you have the heart but not the feet, just do it anyway. And if you don't have the heart, that's fine. Plenty of people have amazing arches and they don't dance. And that's fine. That's okay. Megan, you also have a really fun newsletter. Yeah.

I have a newsletter. It's called Burbank Industries. You can find it at Megan Burbank.substack.com. And I actually write a lot about ballet in that newsletter. So if anyone is like, no, but really, like, please tell me how you felt going to an intensive. You can find all the information there. I think there are some quietly ballet curious people listening right now. I sure hope so. I really do think they're everywhere. And I want them to come talk to me. I wonder if this is like, are there also people, We're like, and I should really get into volunteer firefighting now that we're talking about this kind of thing. I hope so, too. I mean, I think it doesn't have to be ballet. But I think, well, we do need more firefighters in our states specifically. But I think having something like this that's not your job, that's not your identity, but that's something that makes you feel really present in your brain and your body.

That's good. We could all use more of that. Right. Yeah. And that, you know, you don't owe excellence to anybody, but you do owe it to yourself to offer yourself these experiences. And honestly, it can be excellent to be bad at something. Yeah. Thank you, Megan.

Thank you, Sarah. And that is our episode. Thank you to the people who help make this show. Miranda Zickler is our producer and editor. And Nicole Ortiz is our administrative assistant. We'll see you in two weeks.