ZOE Science & Nutrition - How learning to savour flavour can transform your health | Spencer Hyman

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Zoe, Science and Nutrition, where world-leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health. Have you ever wondered why foods that are high in salt, fat and sugar are so tempting? Today we worry that these things damage our health. So why would evolution shape our brains to find them so delicious? The truth is, fat, sugar and salt are rare in nature. And when we lived in the wild, they provided much-needed nutrition. So finding them irresistible motivated us to trap them down, which helped keep us alive.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Today, big food companies exploit this feature of our evolution, employing highly paid incredibly smart food scientists to fine-tune their recipes. Slowly tweaking them, they hijack our ancient brains and make their products irresistible. But there is something you can do to break free from their own. spell. Today, Spencer Hyman, a world-renowned chocolate expert and flavour evangelist, is helping us to fight back. Alongside Zoe's scientific co-founder, Professor Tim Specter, we learn about the hazards of wolfing down your food. And while learning to savour it could protect our health, protect the planet, and help us break free from Big Food Stranglehold. By the end of today's episode, we will have a new

Starting point is 00:01:28 appreciation for flavor. You'll also learn how we've lost the art of savoring and how you can rediscover it. Today's episode is going to be like herding cats because I have two of my friends both Tim Specter and Spencer Heiman and they're friends with each other and they've already been talking about this subject for two hours before we start the podcast. So Spencer, thank you for joining me today. Thank you very much. Very excited. Tim, thanks for being here. Pleasure. So I'm going to try and keep you on the straight and narrow. And at least we have this tradition at the beginning where we start with these quick, fire, rounder questions from our listeners.

Starting point is 00:02:08 So I believe here at least I can keep you to a yes or a no. Tim, have our brains evolved to seek out high fat, high sugar foods? Yes. Spencer, to big food companies design their products to encourage us to eat mindlessly? Definitely, yes. Tim, can bolting your food down have long-term negative health effects? Yes. Spencer, to highly processed foods reduce your ability to appreciate the flavors in natural food.

Starting point is 00:02:40 Yes. Tim, should you chew each mouthful of food 32 times? Probably not. And finally, Spencer, what do you think is the most significant benefit of savoring your food rather than wolfing it down? overall savoring as opposed to wolfing it down or bolting it down fast is the key to identifying and getting on the path to eating a healthy diet well i look forward to unpacking all of that and i think it's pretty obvious that people are attracted to foods that are sweet and salty and high fat it seems like it's sort of baked into us as human beings and it's also clear that

Starting point is 00:03:18 food manufacturers know how to hit the sweet spot of this and to sell the product and I don't think anyone listening to this is going to be surprised. But Tim, could we maybe just start off with why are we evolved to seek out these sorts of foods? The first food we all encounter is breast milk and that's sweet. The sugars in there, lactose, is something that all humans have to like and have to seek out, otherwise they would die. So that's, I think, something that stays with us the rest of our life, really, this life-giving food that we all need. we're driven for it, and we have various sweet receptors, not just in our mouth, but in other

Starting point is 00:03:57 bits of our intestine as well, which drive us for that. And we know that fats are also really crucial for our survival as well. We do need fats to get our brains to work and other essential parts of our bodies. Salt is the other one. If we're salt deprived, then really our body doesn't work well either. So these are all hardwired, really from birth, but this is manipulated by the food industry to take it to excess where we didn't actually need it that much excess of it. We just needed enough to survive. And Spencer, how have food manufacturers sort of capitalized on this, like, innate desires that Tim was talking about for these properties?

Starting point is 00:04:39 So I think there's a wonderful history here, which goes by the name of The Bliss Point, which is that back in the 1960s, a food scientist called Howard Moscovitz articulated this concept, which Tim has just been explaining about if you can mine sugar, salt and fat in optimum amounts for different foods, people just don't know how to stop wolfing the food down without any thought. And that is generally taken as being the start of the junk food epidemic. But actually, ironically, you can really argue that 100 years earlier in the world of chocolate, this was discovered when Daniel Peter and Nestle worked out how to make milk chocolate, because that is the ultimate bliss point food.

Starting point is 00:05:18 So big food really uses a number of tricks based around our tastes as opposed to our flavors. One of them is this bliss point, the one that Timorish is talking about sugar, salt and fat. The other is this wonderfully named Sensory Specific satiety, which talks about different textures. And again, it's all designed to help us identify different foods because we need a variety of foods to survive. So if you get different textures as well as sugar, salt and fat, it really becomes pretty much game over. Did the first chocolate have salt in that as well? Do you know? It did have a little bit because it was made.

Starting point is 00:05:51 The very, very first milk chocolates were made with condensed milk as opposed to make it with just straight milk powder. But now a lot of chocolates, milk chocolates will have a tiny bit of salt added to them just to sort of give it that twist and lots of texture and mass market chocolate to try and get you just to keep on wolfing it down as fast as you can. So Spencer, could you help us understand a bit more about how those products encouraged us to eat them so quickly? because I think about it as, like, I want that because it's high and fast in sugar,

Starting point is 00:06:19 but it's not clear to me why that would mean I would want to eat it faster or eat more of it. So there's one other dimension which they add to it, which is they make it hyper palatable. So you don't really notice the calories. So if you take lots of junk crisps, when you put them in their mouth, they almost immediately dissolve. So you haven't got anything of that. And that's one of the problems with sodas too. But basically, humans are programmed to love sugar, salt, fat, because that's what we need in. energy-wise, we're also programmed to, like, diversity, sensory-specific satiety.

Starting point is 00:06:50 And food companies, I don't think they've done this maliciously, but they've noticed that if you want to get people to eat more, that's one way of doing it. The other advantage for food companies is it lends into the other aspects of food production, like commoditization and also like the manufacturing. So it's much cheaper for them to actually make foods where they just can add stuff like sugar, salt and fat, and a bit of texture, rather than taking wonderful, fruits or vegetables or cocoa and crafting that carefully so that you bring out the flavors which are very different to tastes. So can you explain a little bit more about what this bliss point is?

Starting point is 00:07:28 Yeah, the bliss point appeals to your taste senses. So humans, as Tim was explaining, from birth, the first food we have is mother's milk, which has got sugar, a little bit of fat, a little bit of salt in it too. We are programmed to seek out foods which are high in those areas. If you design foods, which have got that in them. And chocolate is arguably the first. You can argue it's biscuits, but it's probably chocolate. Plus, they have a texture which literally melts in the mouth. Again, think of chocolate, hyper-pallotability. Plus, then you can add different bits and pieces. You basically create this environment where people just want to wolf it down because they want more and more of that sensation. Humans really should eat much more slowly because that brings out

Starting point is 00:08:09 the flavor, and that also, as Tim will explain, helps you get the nutrients out of it. But you can basically play off our innate tastes, the things that we detect with our tongue, our esophagus, and our upper intestine, to get people to basically just wolf food down as if there's no tomorrow. I would say the bliss point is this precise chemical formula that food companies have come up with that is the exact proportions of the fat, the sugar and the salt that create in the mind the ability to overcome your normal fullness signals and overeat. That's basically what the industry has done and how they've taken something that sounds really cool, nice, oh, bliss, perfect, and actually created a monster that artificially they can tweak the food so that you

Starting point is 00:08:59 eat much more than your body really wants it to. That's how I view this. Whereas Spencer's often looking at it from a nice taste and, you know, the other way of bliss, really tasty. I'm looking at it from a health point of view, and it's overriding our normal fullness signals. That's what the companies are doing all the time with these foods. And Tim, when I hear that immediately makes me think about all of these GLP-1s, like the EZempix and Wagovi and everything, which are treating us because we're constantly hungry, like we're not able to feel full in the way that obviously our ancestors were. Is that related in any way to food manufacturers and this Bliss Point food? Yeah, they're working in opposite directions. And actually the consumer is stuck between, you know, the EZMPIC-like drugs

Starting point is 00:09:44 and the food companies. And, you know, one are making us fat and the other are giving us a drug to stop us being fat. And the mechanism is the same. They are really, both of them, focusing on these hunger signals. So the foods we eat are overriding the hunger signals and the drugs we're taking are actually blocking that so that we do feel full much earlier than we would be otherwise. So it's really two sides of the same coin, really. And this is why all the research is pointing towards appetite and satiety as being the crucial factor in weight gain and health. I think the other angle to put on this, though, is as well that tastes are instinctive. We are programmed to love stuff that is sweet.

Starting point is 00:10:25 You know, if you take a little bit of sweet solution, put it on your finger and give it to a baby, it will be very happy. If you put it in sort of a bitter solution, you know, quinine or caffeine or anything like that, the baby will rinse back. We have taste sensors to warn us and to encourage us to eat different food. So if you combine sugar salt and fat, it does give you great pleasure. But there are other ways of getting pleasure which are much healthier for you. How did you feel after your breakfast this morning? Great, I hope. But if the answer is tired, bloated or hungry again by noon, you're not alone.

Starting point is 00:10:58 At Zoe, we always want to learn more about your nutrition habits. So we recently asked thousands of people about breakfast. As it turns out, only a tiny fraction of those we surveyed felt satisfied and energetic after eating breakfast. That is not good. We know that the wrong breakfast can set you up for a day filled with energy dips, hunger pangs, and brain fog. The right breakfast, not the kind that big food wants you to eat, can keep you reaching for sugary snacks throughout the day and sabotaging your health goals.

Starting point is 00:11:28 Because we're Zoe, we want to help you change that. We just launched our free, better breakfast guide, featuring six science-backed recipes, five simple breakfast swaps, and real-life advice from our team of world-leading scientists and nutritionists, including what they eat to energize their mornings. It's time to skip the crash and give your body what it needs to thrive. To download your free guide right now, go to zoe.com forward slash breakfast guide, or click the link in the show notes. That's zoe.com breakfast guide. or click the link in the show notes. I've heard Zoe scientists quite often use this word hyper palatibility that I've heard you both mention.

Starting point is 00:12:12 And many of our listeners who are using the new Zoe app have probably seen that as sort of part of this new process food risk score that you've been working on over the last year. But I think, certainly for me, I'd never heard this word until the last year. Could you explain what it really means? The general description is a food that is making you overeat more than you physiologically should be eating, what we call it overcoming homeostasis, which is the normal balance of the body. It's tricking your body into eating more of it than you should, and it does this by this exact formula of how much fat relative to how much sugar and how much salt. And there's an exact formula that's been worked out by scientists now that can take any food.

Starting point is 00:12:57 and work out, does it have this magic percentage in it? It's 25% of this and 75% of this. And this is what all the food companies have worked out over 70 years of experiments to work out this precise mix that they can put in that will mean that you overcome your normal fullness signals and you end up eating twice as much as you like. So what we've done at Zoe is how to re-look at this whole question of what are the risky processed foods? When you look at a processed food, one of the things we'd look at it,

Starting point is 00:13:27 looking at is this hyper palatibility. We're scoring it because we now know the magic formula. We put that into our model, our database, and we come up with, yes, this food is hyper palatable because the food manufacturer has actually manipulated it in that way. So that's one of the factors we look at. We also look at the additives. We've got a list of not just every additive because some additives can be quite healthy, like a bit of vitamin C or something. But if that additive is on a list that it's going to be unhealthy for you or has been shown to cause cancer or diabetes or whatever it is. That goes on to our waiting score. So we score the additives that way. We also look at something called the eating rate, the speed of which you eat that food, which is another subset of

Starting point is 00:14:11 what this is. So as Spencer was saying, if it just breaks up into your mouth immediately, like a potato crisp or something like this, that it's just so fast that you don't even notice you're eating it. That is another factor. And then, of course, what we call the energy density is the final bit of our equation. Despite eating it really fast, it's still getting lots of calories into your body in that short time. So we've got these four components really of processed foods now, and that goes into our score, which is on the new Zoe app, and I think is replacing this old concept of ultra-processed food where everything was seen as bad. We've worked out that from our current levels of the old-fashioned ultra-processed food, accounting for like

Starting point is 00:14:53 57% of our UK diet, we're now highlighting 25% of the foods as being risky and something to be avoided, but at least half of those ones are probably fine to eat. So it's narrowing down what we should be worrying about, which I think is really useful for people. I think one thing you can add to it as well, which is a sign, is that if you feel like you're drawn to wanting to wolf down another piece, rather than enjoying it, letting it slowly savour and melt and just talk about it, the odds are that they're just playing with taste, so sugar, salt, fat, maybe a bit of umami in there too. What they're not doing is trying to get you just to savor the wave of flavors that you will be getting from any great fruit, any great chocolate, any great olive

Starting point is 00:15:39 oil. And it's this taking your time to step back too. And it has sort of two benefits, one of which is, as you eat more slowly, as Tim will explain, that is healthier for you. But also, it is nature's way of telling you that this food is still packed full of macronutrients, micronutrients, because that's what gives you the flavor. So the more flavor you have, the more likelihood it is that it's also going to be good for you. What I love about this new score is it makes you realize what the food companies are actually trying to achieve. And I think this is a real breakthrough. So I'm just labeling all bad. By looking at these scores in detail, you can see food for the first time. It's revealed to you how,

Starting point is 00:16:17 that that food company is fiddling with your taste buds in order to make you have three times as much of this stuff as you really need. And I think this gives us suddenly a weapon to fight back against these guys. It's fantastic to have this weapon. And the other thing it will also help people do is that if you don't detect any flavor, then you know that they're basically hacking your taste sensors. So I think I'm sort of understanding Bliss Point and this hyper palatibility, like they're not being able to stop continuing to eat it. Just before we move on, are there a lot of foods in nature that we would have been eaten in the past that are like either hyper palatable or have this bliss point other than you said my mother's breast milk

Starting point is 00:16:59 when I was a baby? Other than breast milk, we really aren't. We have to make them. Some people would class some cheeses, for example. Yeah, maybe. As being on the verge of being hyper palatable. You know, we've all been there and that cheese board just ends up being nibbled away. But they are made again. They're not peering in nature. So I don't, I don't we know of any in nature. No. No.

Starting point is 00:17:24 So that's really interesting. So what you're saying is we're surrounded now by foods in the supermarket that just don't really reflect any of the sort of foods that we would have, like, evolved to be around. Yeah, exactly. Our ancestors didn't have them. And, you know, when you go to hunter-gatherer tribes, they're not faced with these. They have them all as individual items, but they're not put together. So you can have honey and you can have something fat. like a fatty piece of meat or something, but it's not naturally...

Starting point is 00:17:51 They would have them separately. Yeah. I think the other thing is that a lot of the components which go into these ultra-processed foods have also been bred now more to have sweetness inside them and less bitterness and also to have less length of flavour because you need time to bring that out. So even the raw components have been commoditized. And so that's the other challenge that we have. Generally bitter foods are those that are high in polyphenols.

Starting point is 00:18:17 and we've lost a lot of our ability to want to have those foods. And if children, after they've gone through the breast milk phase, are just given more and more sugar, then it makes it harder for them to appreciate these bitter tastes that are actually really healthy for them. And they're also not taught to articulate the flavors which come out on the other side of it, because we don't eat together and we don't talk about the food as much,

Starting point is 00:18:41 because taste is instinctive, but flavor is a language that you almost have to learn. If you don't talk about it, it becomes much more. to appreciate it. And then that has this vicious spiral, which is almost all the foods that people are having, are focused much more on the tastes as opposed to the flavors. So I would like to talk about flavor, but first I'd like to cover why this eating fast actually impacts people's health. Why does it matter, Tim? It matters because the speed of which you eat is correlated with a number of health outcomes. We know that people eat at different rates.

Starting point is 00:19:17 I was taught to eat very fast as a junior doctor because otherwise, I would, you know, my bleep would go off and I wouldn't do this. So most doctors eat very fast. And when they do surveys of saying, you know, are you a fast eater, a slow eater? We all know the last one to finish or the first one in families, etc. There is a correlation with poor health and the fast eaters. They tend to be more like to be obese, more like to have type 2 diabetes, more like to have heart disease, etc. So it's rather upsetting to think that, you know, that sometimes, if you know, if you're no fault of your own, you did a job that trained you to eat very fast, or some do it in large families,

Starting point is 00:19:51 if they think their brothers are going to steal all the food, for example. That's another common one. But there's been quite a lot of research about chewing food and biting and eating fast. And the food companies have gotten onto this. And actually, they have created foods that make it impossible not to eat it fast. So you're getting this sort of feeling that you have to keep chewing. And before you know it, you've finished the pack of biscuits. You've eaten far more than you wanted to. These are foods that are absolutely designed to make us overeat

Starting point is 00:20:22 and in Victorian times they used to have these ways of dieting that you have to sort of chew your food 200 times every mouthful. Well Tim I asked you this question in the beginning about chewing each mouthful 32 times which seems weirdly specific but we had a question

Starting point is 00:20:38 about it so clearly that was a piece of advice one of our listeners got. Is there any truth to this idea that if you eat 2 30, 3,000, two times, somehow you'll be healthier? Well, in general, the more you chew, the slower you will eat, and this will have some benefits. Pining down exactly how much you should chew is really pretty impossible. Most people choose somewhere between 15 to 45 times, is a sort of rough range.

Starting point is 00:21:06 But it's hugely very about what you're eating, what age you are, you know, environment. So I don't think we should be having strict rules. that would also make eating like a punishment which is not what we're about. Eating is for pleasure. As an experiment, next time people who are listening, eating something,

Starting point is 00:21:29 just try to chew you for twice as long as you would normally do and see what happens. Or take the Japanese trick, which is they have this great saying, had a hatchibu, which means that when you're 80% full, stop. You will overeat if you eat too fast

Starting point is 00:21:40 because it does take time for your gut to tell your brain, okay, I've had enough, I'm there. The other thing I would sort of suggest is that when you look at a food, if it's not designed to be refolded and put back in its wrapper, be very skeptical. So one of the big differences between mass-produced chocolate and craft chocolate is craft chocolate comes in lovely wrappers, not just because they look beautiful, because you can put the chocolate back in because you're not supposed to eat the whole bar in one go.

Starting point is 00:22:03 Whereas if you buy a mass-produced chocolate bar, try putting it back in the wrapper. It's pretty much impossible. And Spencer tends to talk a lot about, like, I guess, the health impacts of eating more slowly. but I know you're really interested in other benefits. I mean, one of the tragedies today is that over 20% of American food is now consumed in cars, which is not exactly going to be conducive to savoring your food. You are definitely going to be wolfing it down like there's no tomorrow. But even here in the UK, even people who work all too often do exactly what Tim and you were describing,

Starting point is 00:22:33 which is they just sit at their desks. 80% of people sit at their desks, even though they're in a work environment with other people, you know, wolfing down their food. And so from a social and from a mental health perspective, it's really not a good aspect to bring forward at all. The other angle to eating slowly is that it's a bit like sort of learning to swim or learning to do any like a music instrument. It actually, if you learn the language of flavor, it gives you another set of tools. And just as when you learn the knowledge, if you were one of those people before we had GPS and was a black cab driver, it sort of activated different parts of your brain. There's a lot of evidence now to suggest that actually learning the language of flavor is a great way of sort of, you know, energizing different parts of your brain too.

Starting point is 00:23:18 I did hear a fact that was about in the average British lunch, you know, which is this meal deal, is usually eaten in under five minutes. You think about it. What are you buying? You know, you're buying soft bread that doesn't have a, you don't have to chew. It's like baby food, really. Yeah, it's hyperposable. The filling is mush inside. you know, you might have an orange juice and... Which will be full of sugar.

Starting point is 00:23:43 And salty, fatty crisps. And that's what most people are eating. It does generally take about 20 minutes before you start to feel full. That's what manufacturers are trying to get all the food in in really quick time so that your brain doesn't say, hey, guys, we're full here. We don't need more food. Right. And then they'll also add a bit of sweetness to the end of the meal deal

Starting point is 00:24:04 because they also know that even if they have somehow, you know, missed a trick and that you are feeling a bit full. see something sweet, your upper intestine, sweet receptors will basically say, I want some of that too. So that'll basically encourage. The second stomach. Yeah, the second stomach. So Tim, I know that has led you to focus a lot more on this idea of mindful eating. And it's not something you were really talking about when I first met you eight years ago. But I know it's become really important now as we think about what we're doing at Zoe. Could you, I guess, explain a bit what that is and why sort of your scientific research has led you to focus so much more on this than,

Starting point is 00:24:37 when we first met. In a way, what mindful eating is trying to do is to combat what the food companies are trying to distort. So it's our way of rebelling. And to do that, it's about looking at the food you're eating in a different way. So rather than just saying it as a source of energy, you're actually taking time to look at it and savour it. And so this is how we're developing the app very much with this in mind.

Starting point is 00:25:07 that people with the Zoe app will take a picture of their food, so they're snapping it first. So that just allows you a moment to look at what's on your plate and evaluate it. How many plants have you got on there? Is it healthy? How much processed food is there? And then you get the results, and that's the discovery phase. So this is where the app helps you work out what's actually in that food, whether it's the macronutrients you're interested in, or is it risky processing? What is the overall score going to be good for you? you know, is it good for your gut microbes? And this is very much a long-term experience. So you become slowly a food expert by doing this. And our food choices are the most important choices we make

Starting point is 00:25:49 every single day for our health. I use it now as a way of understanding what I'm eating. There's always some new food I don't know about. And I love counting my plants to see if that's all part of, you know, how am I achieving that at the end of the week? And this is all part of my way of mindful eating and, you know, even people like me are still learning because of this amazing new technology with the AI and things that can help us. So Spencer, I think we're going to do an experiment here in the podcast studio. And I think what's exciting is that many of our listeners should be able to do the experiment themselves at their home. And I can see that in front of you, you have a few plates. One of them, you've got some mint on, and then you've got a couple of different

Starting point is 00:26:34 chocolates, one of which I think is a craft chocolate, because I know Spencer well, so he will definitely have like a quality chocolate and another one, which is like a, he said, like a Hershey's or a Bourneville. And you are now going to let us try some different ways to taste this, I understand, and see whether or not even someone with as poor a sense of flavour as me can tell any difference. I think you have a great sense of flavour, but yes. But I think as Tim was sort of saying, look, the key to being mindful is to learn the

Starting point is 00:27:04 language so you can articulate it. And the first thing which everybody confuses, I think, is the difference between taste and flavor. So taste, sweet, sour, salty, bitter, amami fat. You detect with your tongue, basically, and they're very easy to identify. Flavor, which we often conflate with taste, because we don't have a word which says, I flave, is actually your sense of smell. And it works in a very different way to taste. And so just to try and explain this to everybody, whenever we do a tasting, or if you're just at home, what you need to do is basically go to your fridge or go to your herb or herb garden. Pick a herb and we've just got some mint here.

Starting point is 00:27:37 I'm just going to hand it around. I'm going to take one too and basically just take a piece of mint or take a herb of any sort and then basically give it a quick sniff. Smells very minty, yeah. But now rub it between your fingers a bit more. Okay.

Starting point is 00:27:51 And it should become even more minty. Oh yeah, it's much stronger. Much mintier, right? And if I was at home right now and I only had dried herbs, what would I need to do? That would work fine. If you could wet them a little bit before,

Starting point is 00:27:59 that would be great. But if you've only got dried herbs, that's absolutely fine. The trick, though, is the next bit, which is very difficult to get right, but it's not that difficult, which is you take the hand, which doesn't have the mint in it, and you squeeze your nose tightly shut. Now, you really do have to squeeze your nose shut, and you mustn't basically let go of it until five or ten seconds are past. By the way, if you're not watching this on video, you're really missing a trick, because Spencer and Tim look fantastically ridiculous as they're holding their nose. And then you take the piece of mint, and you just drop it in your mouth and you start chewing out. But you have to hold your nose.

Starting point is 00:28:30 and what you'll discover is it doesn't really resemble mint of any sort at all if you've got mint in your mouth at this point you might find it's a little bit spicy a little bit bitter doesn't really taste very much maybe a little bit zero mint zero mint so if we count to three one two three and then we release our noses oh it's amazing within like one second

Starting point is 00:28:50 I'm getting this massive hit of minty freshness minty freshness right so what we conflate is taste which we detect with our tongues and flavour, which is actually our olfactory system. So that's our sense of smell. We've got our olfactory epithelium up at the top there. That's what we smell with, but humans as well are amazing in that when we breathe in and out or when we swallow, we pass those aromas back through our olfactory system, our sense of

Starting point is 00:29:13 smell. So it's called retranasal olfaction. That's the technical term for it. So Spencer, I just want to confirm that you're saying I actually taste with my nose. You flave with your nose. Your sense of flavor, that mintiness is not a taste, but you, you're not. you are detecting it with your olfactory system, which is your nose. And that's because the chemicals are going from my mouth sort of up and into my nose.

Starting point is 00:29:37 And this is presumably why when you have a bad cold, people say nothing tastes of anything. Exactly. That's exactly what they say. And it's also it's the heat from your mouth, which is releasing the volatiles and the aromas. And that's what you're detecting. And that's one of the arguments as to why you should, going back to Tim's point, about chewing. If you swallow it too fast, which is, by the way, what the food companies want you to do, you won't be able to get any flavor because it takes at least three to five seconds that most foods to start releasing the flavours and probably 10 to 15 even more

Starting point is 00:30:04 for all of the flavors to start coming through. And these are little chemicals just so people understand what's happening when you break down these foods. You're breaking down the cell walls that releases aromatic chemicals that float in the air and those are the ones that are being picked up as they rise into the back of your nose into your brain and they get picked up in your brain and then recognize those memory centers as what's going on. So it's very much a brain function here. And that's what happened during COVID with people lost their sense of smell. It affected the brain. And a lot of people had major

Starting point is 00:30:41 problems for months. And it is associated with early signs of dementia, many brain diseases. The first thing to go is your loss of sense of flavor, should we say? Yeah, aromas and flavors. So we're going to try now a couple of different chocolates. So what we've got here, a two craft chocolate. The first one is made from beans from Uganda. And then the second one is going to be coming around from Latua in Guatemala. And the trick here is to give it a quick sniff, just as you did before. What percent are these?

Starting point is 00:31:10 These are about 70 percent. It does smell of something. I thought it was going to be absolutely... If you want the real trick, if you want to become a real pro, what you want to do, this is going to be a little bit difficult on camera and everything else. But you take a little bit of chocolate between your fingers and then you rub it until it's starts to melt. And when you do this, what you'll discover is that you're going to get even more smell, even more aromas, because the heat is what's releasing the volatile's, which is why when you

Starting point is 00:31:31 have a cold coffee, it has a very different flavor profile to a hot coffee. But if you keep rubbing it, you'll see you're going to get more and more flavors coming through. And the other trick when you do this is this is a good way of testing if it's good chocolate, because what should happen with good chocolate is it should completely dissolve because it's just got cocoa butter in it. If you take a cheap chocolate, which has got lots of vegetable fats or PGPR or all those things, it will just get stuck in your fingers. Snap it next to your ear. Because one of the great amazing things about chocolate is that it's solid at room temperature and then it melts at... Very satisfying little crack, don't you think, Tim? That snap is very important because it's basically been tempered. It's the

Starting point is 00:32:05 right crystal structure. So it's solid in your hands, but when you drop it on your tongue, which we can do now. Now, you can, if you want, do the nose trick again because it's quite fun. So if you don't have any mint or basil in your fridges at home, you can just take a good bar of chocolate. It has to be craft chocolate and we'll explain you why in a second. But initially what you're going to get is a little bit of taste. So is it sweet? Is it sour? Is it salty?

Starting point is 00:32:30 Not in this case, but you will get a bit of sweetness and maybe a bit of sourness. And then texturally, it should start to melt. Now, you can do what Jonathan's doing, which is chewing it a bit. Or you can, either of them are fine, provided you don't swallow. And then what you want to start doing is thinking, okay, what are the flavors like? And this is where it becomes quite tricky and why we've sort of developed this sort of flavor wave, you've all got sitting in front of you. But the taste and text is relatively simple,

Starting point is 00:32:54 but the flavors are much more difficult because we don't have a vocab. So you want to sort of think, well, does this remind me of a vegetable, or is it a bit more floral, or is it a bit more minerally, or is it a bit alcoholic? And then the other thing you will discover

Starting point is 00:33:07 is that you will get different flavor waves. So when you see a rainbow, you can see lots of colors at the same time. Similarly, with taste, you can get sweet, sour, salty all at the same time. With flavor, the human brain can only process two or three flavors at any one time. So you really need to think about it as a journey. It's not the same flavor all the time as I'm letting this chocolate melt in my mouth.

Starting point is 00:33:29 The flavor I get after four seconds might be different from the flavor after 10 seconds. It will be different after 10 seconds. If it's a good chocolate or if it's a great wine or it's a great tea or a great coffee, you will get different flavors because the volatiles, the aromas are being released by the heat at different points. And so those are the chemicals that Tim was talking about that actually not all at the same. I don't pick it all up in one second like I do when I look at a picture. You're saying it's sort of like one after another. Exactly. If I've learnt how to appreciate it, which by the way, I definitely haven't. You definitely have. You definitely have. And the other thing, though, is that it's

Starting point is 00:34:01 difficult to do. So the easiest way to do it is to have somebody else there to discuss it mindfully, but to also have two different chocolates on the go at the same time. So now we're going to have same make. So made in exactly the same factory, exactly the same way. And this one actually is a chocolate from Guatemala, from a group of people called the Ketchi, different continent, different beans and different fermentations, which I know that Tim is very keen on. So fermentation is absolutely crucial to bringing out the flavor in chocolate, as it is in beer, as it is in wine, in all great foods. So it's exactly the same percentage, but even straight out front, it tastes a bit sweeter. Yeah, but there's no difference in the sugar. So what's happening here is there is a, there is a very

Starting point is 00:34:39 strange thing, which is the way that flavors interact with your taste sensors is they will make things taste more sweet. So this has the same amount of sugar, exactly the same. same, but it tastes sweeter because there's something to do with the way that it's... The flavour volatiles are basically unlocking your sweet receptors slightly differently. And it's creamier as well, isn't it? Yeah, got different. That's partly the cocoa butter may be slightly different, but it's also, I think, just a textureal issue.

Starting point is 00:34:59 But it's also, to me, a lot more frutier. I was going to say, to me, it feels more fruity, and the last one felt more something not fruity. I don't know if the right words for that. Well, is it floral? Flores. The last one was more floral. And then you can dive down and say, well, what sort of flower is it?

Starting point is 00:35:13 And just like learning a language, the more you do this, the more fun you have. have, and the better you get it articulating. But also, when you do this, you are showing that the food has not just been well crafted, but it's been well grown from good quality beans. So it's not a commodity bean, which hasn't been made in a mass processed way. I'm also going to reassure all the listeners, because whenever I do this with Tim or Spencer, I'm like, I don't have any of the words to describe the flavor. I can see it taste different. I can't figure out that it's floral, what floral. When you have a dinner party or lunch, you're probably talking about other stuff. So if we could basically do what Tim was sort of saying, in addition to taking a photo of your food to get

Starting point is 00:35:47 the macronutrients, if you then basically discuss the flavors with the people you were eating with, that would help you learn the language. It is just a language. It's not instinctive. It's like what we do with wine. You've got an expensive bottle. You're quite mindful of it. And that's part of the reason that then build up this whole language of wine tasting that could be applied to food, but we don't do it. No, that's the problem is that people don't do it. Can anybody do this? Yes, they definitely can. It's just. just Christian practice, like anybody can learn a new language. Why is it important? It's important because it's one of the best defenses we have to identify that the food has been grown and crafted

Starting point is 00:36:23 in a healthy way, because basically flavor is the one thing that big food cannot replicate. They can add a little bit of a flavor agent here and there, but it'll be very, very quick. There are two more chocolates which I'd love to try. One of them has got a little bit of texture in it. So this is what I meant by encouraging you to eat more. So this is a fantastic chocolate made by Pump Street, Ecuadorian chocolate, but it's also got a little bit of Pumpstreet's well-known bread in it. So this, I think you'll find very, very moorish. It's made in the UK, made in the UK down in Orford in Suffolk.

Starting point is 00:36:51 And again, give it a quick sniff, lovely smell. This is an Ecuadorian cacao. And, yep, you're doing good. Immediately when you put this in your mouth, textually. Texture is completely different. It's got some breadcrumbs inside up. And that, I think, you can see, Tim is almost there.

Starting point is 00:37:11 Tim's almost got the next piece in his mouth ready to go. So if you want an example of sensory-specific satiety, this is it. So this is not a milk chocolate. It's a fantastically scrumptious chocolate. But if you can just hold back just for a little bit... I really want to chew it. You really want to it. That's exactly what it's designed to do. And that's the reason why, if you think about almost all the chocolate bars you get

Starting point is 00:37:28 out of a vending machine, they've all got stuff in it. Crunchy bits. But wait. And you're going to suddenly get the yeasty and the multi-notes from that sourdough as it releases. So if you can just wait for five to ten seconds, be a little bit more mindful. You're going to get this flavour wave and you will basically. basically eat it more slowly. I've already swallowed it, but I'll try.

Starting point is 00:37:48 You've still got some more down there. But help me for a minute, because I think that's fascinating. So that reminded me a lot of the sort of traditional chocolate bars of my youth, because it sort of had this slightly biscuity texture to it. I can imagine it's got like little air pockets or something, and it's sort of crunching down. And you're saying that affects how I want to eat it? Yes. So Tim talked a lot about hyperpabilisibility, a lot about the bliss point.

Starting point is 00:38:09 There's another trick, which is sensory-specific satiety. Think of it like the buffet effect. nobody eats more at a buffet because you want to try all the different things. We are also programmed to like novelty. So just to go back onto it, though, once you learn to look for the wave and once you learn just to focus in on the flavour, it's amazing what people can do. So we're now going to try one of the best-selling UK dark chocolates, even though it's mainly sugar, which is a Bourneville. And what would that be in the US? That would be like a Hershey's. Now, again... Although this is billed as a dark chocolate. This is built as a dark chocolate here because it's above

Starting point is 00:38:40 the 30%. But it does also have milk, which is a little bit confusing. But anyway... If you give it a smell, it doesn't quite have the same... It actually doesn't really smell of anything. No, because the chocolate... I'm thinking back to how... This is what I expected when I smelled the first chocolate. I didn't expect to smell anything because I think of chocolate. And if you take a little bit of it and you drop it on your tongue, it's just a sweet.

Starting point is 00:39:02 It tastes completely different. And it's just up and down. So you're not getting the wave. I'm not really getting any flavour at all from it. I'm getting some sweetness. Like the texture is very like homogenized. as if it's been pulverized more compared to the other ones. And you just get sweetness.

Starting point is 00:39:20 It also is dispersing quickly. So coming back to the fact that you can eat it quicker because there's nothing left after a few seconds. It's melted really fast in my mouth. Very sweet compared to the others because I guess because it was so fast. And basically none of the flavor that you were talking about, like the things I could smell, like if you told me what to do it. You won't get much flavor.

Starting point is 00:39:36 There is one flavor note that you may get from it now that you're really focused on the flavor, which is a sign of where these cocoa beans come from. from, which is if I said the word coconut to you. Yeah, I get a little bit of a bounty in there, isn't it? Yeah, but there is no coconut added to it. But now that you've learned to be mindful about flavor, you're actually able to use it to drill down and actually identify where this bean is likely to be coming from.

Starting point is 00:40:00 So Spencer, that was a fun experiment. And I think if anyone's listening to this in a place where they weren't able to try it, like, when you get back to your kitchen, definitely have a go with just like holding your nose. It's really remarkable. I'd like to pull this now to how does that help us to fight back against big food? Why does this matter for that? If you can detect flavour, it is a great sign that the food is going to be healthy for you.

Starting point is 00:40:25 Is that only true for something like chocolate, Spencer, where you're giving me this example? No, it's definitely true for tea, which I have here. It's definitely true for wine. It's definitely true for coffee. It's definitely true for olive oil. I think what's interesting about all those examples, though, is that they're all what I would call sort of complex flavors, because the same is also true when you pick a great strawberry or a great tomato. You can all tell the difference something from an allotment and something

Starting point is 00:40:53 which is the cheapest you can get in a supermarket. So if you want a sort of trick, look for something called blicked, balance, length, intensity, complexity and depth. If you have something which takes you on a wave, the odds are that that food, whether it be processed or even if you're if it just be a natural one, actually is going to be much healthier for you. And it runs across everything from your sandwiches to your burgers, to your apples, anything. It's not just craft chocolate. Craft chocolate is just an amazingly good way to learn how flavor works because it melts in your mouth and because it has more complex to a flavor than just about anything else on the planet.

Starting point is 00:41:32 So can I take that to maybe it's like, you know, the opposite extreme of your craft chocolate, hamburgers. So if I had like a bun that was actually somehow made, you know, at home and a burger that I had cooked myself with condiments versus, you know, going to like a McDonald's or a Burger King, can I tell a difference in flavour there? Yes, I think you can. Just basically look for complexity. There are two ways I think you can learn to eat mindfully. One is by learning to cook and the other is by then to eat mindfully itself. Any food, if you can learn the difference between taste, sugar, salt, fat, bitter, and that immediate hit, and then the flavor wave, you are on your way to being able to eat more mindfully and more healthily. And the burger bonn is a great example, because what they do is they add a lot of sugar and salt to it. Nothing else, there's no flavors in it at all.

Starting point is 00:42:25 And it's designed to be eaten super fast, so it just goes straight into you, and you're ready for the next one, which you wouldn't get, if you made the bread yourself, or you've got a really good loaf. And so if I go back to the sort of the bliss point highly processed food that we were talking about at the beginning, am I similarly going to see a difference in the flavor between, I don't know, eating an apple, which after all has a lot of sugar in it and crisps, chips or whatever, am I going to be able to tell a difference with this flavor tool that you've just been teaching us, Spencer? Yes. If you look for blick, you will definitely, I mean, Tim, I think, said this and wrote about this in one of the earlier books.

Starting point is 00:43:06 is that to develop flavor, you need time. And so if you take an apple from somebody's garden, it will not just be less sweet, it will have much more length of flavor than a supermarket, one which has been shipped half across the world, and bread just to be consistent and to be sweet and not necessarily have complex to your flavor.

Starting point is 00:43:28 And you can definitely learn with any food to basically appreciate flavor. So it sounds like we've somehow been educated by all of these fast food manufacturers and big food companies to really focus on what you're calling taste, this thing that I get in the first few seconds, which is like sweet and salt, rather than to focus on flavor because that's really expensive and hard to put into your food, but taste is really easy. You don't even need to use your nose for it. So it's sort of cheap and also drives this sort of overeating. Exactly that. But it's also, if you think about what's happened in the

Starting point is 00:44:04 food world today, we've commoditized food, we've then learned how to grow it more efficiently with fertilizers and pesticides, and then we've figured out how to process it more effectively, and then we figured out how to put some marketing sizzle. The easy way to get you to wolf it down, gobble it down as fast as you can is by using sugar salt and fat. And they're very, very cheap, very simple additives. It's not accidental that, you know, over 50% of most chocolate bar sold in the UK, the primary ingredient is sugar, because sugar is extremely cheap, much cheaper than cocoa. And it's subsidized by the taxpayer. Yeah. which is a ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:44:35 And it becomes addictive. What big food wants to do is to grow food as cheaply as it possibly can, as fast as it possibly can, and then process it as cheaply as it can, and make us eat as much of it as they can. And they do that through the bliss point, sensory specific satirity, hyper-palletability. And the defence to it,

Starting point is 00:44:53 in addition to taking pictures of your food, is to also learn to talk about food and learn the language of flavour. If someone's been listening to this and they want to start savouring their food today and start this journey of understanding what flavor it is. Could you suggest three things that they could do to start this journey? I think the first thing is, as you sort of suggested, is to go to your fridge, go to your herb garden,

Starting point is 00:45:20 try the holding your nose trick just to appreciate the difference between taste and flavor. I think the second one would be to download something like the flavor wave, which we've developed, this tool by which it just takes you through step one, taste and texture. Step two, think about the flavors. Step three, did you get blick and did you enjoy? So just get a framework and, you know, there are apps which will do this too. And then thirdly, pick something that you really enjoy, whether it be olive oil, whether it be wine, whether it be tea, whether it be coffee. Hopefully it'll be craft chocolate. Either go to one of the tastings or just at home, get three or four of the bars and just basically taste them with other people and discuss them

Starting point is 00:46:00 using this framework. So I think make it social, make it mindful. Yeah, and compare with a cheap, highly processed version as well that you might have been eating as well to say you can see the difference. Yeah. Taste the difference. Yeah. To coin of rose. I thought that was a lot of fun. I'm going to try and do a quick summing up.

Starting point is 00:46:18 So the thing that I take away above all else is that we're surrounded by this food, being made by big food that is designed to basically take advantage of our inbuilt desire for certain things. It reminds me a lot of talking about cigarettes and cigarette companies, but in this case, it's not about smoking, it's about this bliss point, this combination of salt and fat and sugars in just the right combination, Tim. You're talking about like a chemical formula, and if I have that, then suddenly this food becomes hyper palatable, so I just like eat more. It overwhelms my natural sense of feeling full, and that's good for the food companies because they sell more.

Starting point is 00:47:00 That's what they care about. They're not necessarily trying to make us sick. But we become sick as a byproduct of this because we eat too much. And then we end up having food that's not good for us. We can end up putting on weight, ultimately getting really sick as we know. And then pharmaceutical companies have a new drug to solve this for us. I thought we did this fascinating experiment where you hold your nose and you eat something, you suddenly realize that you actually, from my words, can't taste anything.

Starting point is 00:47:24 But what you're explained to me is actually I can taste because that's just this very limited thing of like it's spicy or it's sweet and actually what's happened is I can't get any flavors and I need my nose to get my flavors. And what's, I think, really exciting is we have these tools inside our body already to be able to detect whether these foods are full of the polyphenols and all these complex chemicals, Tim, that you talk about a lot has been so important for our gut health. And actually, if you can learn to start to really notice what this food tastes like, then you really can tell the difference between that, like, ultra-processed chocolate at the end and these other ones which are craft chocolates. And so we have more tools than we realize to be able to distinguish.

Starting point is 00:48:14 And if we start to apply those to, you know, eating McDonald's or probably a lot of the food that comes into our house, the sandwiches we eat at lunchtime, you can really tell the difference. And in terms of therefore, sort of specifically, if you're like me and you really don't feel that you have much understanding about flavor. You've suggested there's like a sort of simple one, two, three thing that you could do right now. So the first is try this experiment at home. Try eating like a piece of mint or something like that. Hold your nose.

Starting point is 00:48:42 You understand what you're just getting from taste. Let go. Understand the flavor. Then try and get access to something that can give you the different ways to measure flavor. And we'll put a link in the show notes, Spencer, to your flavor wave, as you call it, which gives you these descriptions. mineral and vegetable and so on and then three pick something that you would like to try so if you drink coffee maybe try some different coffees or whatever it is and try a range

Starting point is 00:49:11 which also includes something which is really mass manufactured Tim as you were saying through to maybe a couple of things that you know are supposed to be not highly processed and you'll be able to see the difference in flavor and it gives you a a hint, I think, about how you might then rethink the cereals that you eat or the snack bars or any of the rest of this, which I think is a really brilliantly positive message. Absolutely. Yes. No, we want everyone to get experimenting and let's change our national palates.

ZOE Science & Nutrition - How learning to savour flavour can transform your health | Spencer Hyman

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